Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 21625 times)

OtherJen

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2019, 08:01:51 AM »
I'm surprised that you think there are so few Republicans on this site. I would think that a culture of careful financial management, LBYM, and wealth-building and personal responsibility would appeal to the best impulses of Republicans as it does to mine.

It would be easy to not associate those characteristics with Republicans given... almost everything we've seen of them at the national level since at least 2001.

This. Fiscal conservatism and responsibility seem to be principles maybe held by republicans but not by Republicans (i.e., the GOP), at least in my adult lifetime (I’m 40).

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2019, 08:28:00 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I disagree with this assessment.  From my vantage point, most politicians are sleazy; it's just a game of who can gain more power and money legally.  As I see it, there were rape allegations during his presidency, his misconduct in office, Whitewater, people's fears over her e-mails (despite being cleared; it doesn't look good), the DNC & Clinton in bed together to oust Sanders (again, complex issue, but it doesn't look good), Clinton Foundation issues, etc.  I would bet I'm missing a few scandals in there. 

I don't like her, but I still voted for her.  It's fair to be asked why I could overlook these issues (her husband's issues are his own) and vote for her anyway.


In this #MeToo era, Hillary A) stood by someone who AT MINIMUM used his powers to gain sexual favors, and B) took part in smearing the names of his alleged victims. 

Compare that to Trump, who everyone loves to say bragged about "Grabbing them by the..." but in reality, he didn't say he grabbed anyone in particular, nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it.  It was a vulgar and scummy thing to say, but as far as I can tell isn't actually backed up by any real action (okay he had a consensual affair with a Stormy, not illegal) he took. 

So basically, you have someone who bragged about something (in abstract, not even with a specific person) he DIDN'T do, and you have someone else who help enable someone to do actual things that they denied doing.  But the first one is the rapist/sexual assaulter????   

To bring it full circle, the lack of critical thinking by reporters around that has always bugged me about the media.  "Trump said he did something bad that we can't prove he did!  He's horrific!!"  "Clinton was not convicted in his impeachment, nothing to see here!!"

"nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it"

In addition to these incidents others reported, there is credible evidence he raped a 13 year old. Who is now in hiding. Reported that she was threatened if she came out. http://www.justiceforkatie.com/

And, there are the transcripts from Ivana and Donald's divorce, where in addition to forced sex, he was angry at his botched scalp transplant and attacked her and pulled out clumps of her hair. This information was brought out during the divorce and are in sealed court depositions. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/24/documenting-trumps-abuse-of-women

You would support someone like this? You think this kind of person is fit to serve as President as the United States? I hope your mother, sister or daughter never comes across someone cut from the same cloth as Trump.

And while I know I won't sway anyone, Trump does not have any firm political or ethical, or constitutional convictions, other than to enrich himself. So while you may be getting some of what you want with him now, he will bend like a reed to save himself, even if it means betraying the country.  How can I say, not worth it. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 08:57:37 AM by partgypsy »

Kris

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partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #103 on: January 19, 2019, 12:09:24 PM »

vern

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Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2019, 07:21:34 AM »
http://reason.com/blog/2019/01/20/covington-catholic-nathan-phillips-video

Yeah. I have watched that video. And anothe one that people on the right are claiming is “proof” those kids are just poor little victims.

The fact that the Black Hebrew group was calling out to those kids seems to be given as a justification for those  kids then mocking and whooping at the Native group.

Nope.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2019, 04:09:57 PM »
http://reason.com/blog/2019/01/20/covington-catholic-nathan-phillips-video

Yeah, the mainstream media really blew it on this story.  The Black Hebrew Israelites were the real instigators here and were saying some horrible things.  I recommend everyone read the updated story to get the facts rather than the fake news.

"The Left is allowing their political faith to dictate facts"

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-left-is-allowing-their-political-faith-to-dictate-facts


Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2019, 04:17:16 PM »
http://reason.com/blog/2019/01/20/covington-catholic-nathan-phillips-video

Yeah, the mainstream media really blew it on this story.  The Black Hebrew Israelites were the real instigators here and were saying some horrible things.  I recommend everyone read the updated story to get the facts rather than the fake news.

"The Left is allowing their political faith to dictate facts"

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-left-is-allowing-their-political-faith-to-dictate-facts

What the Black Hebrew Israelites did has absolutely no bearing on those MAGA kids' decision to mock and deride the Native group.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2019, 07:53:25 PM »
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covington-catholic-black-paint/

Apparently this is a real photo from a Covington High basketball game. The High school states their superfans wear all black paint for "black out" days and to support their team. Me, it looks like blackface. Has any of the adults in the room explained blackface to them? Are they going to use this as another example of how they are "misunderstood"?

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2019, 07:55:58 PM »
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covington-catholic-black-paint/

Apparently this is a real photo from a Covington High basketball game. The High school states their superfans wear all black paint for "black out" days and to support their team. Me, it looks like blackface. Has any of the adults in the room explained blackface to them?

Are they going to use this as another example of how they are "misunderstood"?

Yes. Yes, they are.

This whole thing is sickening.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #110 on: January 22, 2019, 09:06:57 AM »
Huh. The PR firm co-run by Mitch McConnell's advisor is helping the MAGA teen downplay the video and help to spin the public reaction. Hm. I wonder why that would be. Huh.

talltexan

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #111 on: January 22, 2019, 09:32:34 AM »
Being able to hire a PR firm when you're a fifteen-year-old HS student is...impressive.

DadJokes

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #112 on: January 22, 2019, 10:27:41 AM »
Bringing this thread back to its original question, I didn't even vote for president. I voted for state senator, representative, and congressional representative, and just didn't select a presidential candidate. I knew Trump was a garbage human being, but so was Hillary, and Gary Johnson was an idiot. I voted for Cruz in the primary, since he was the only Republican who had a chance to beat Trump.

If I had to pick between the two, I'm glad Trump won, if only for Supreme Court picks. I have no idea what that is said about him is true and what isn't, since the mainstream media (on both sides) have lost all credibility. It has turned into the story of the boy who cried wolf, and I just don't care anymore. I'm actually far more concerned with local politics, which also has more bearing on my day-to-day life.

I probably won't vote in the next election either, unless someone other than Trump is the Republican nominee.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #113 on: January 22, 2019, 11:17:33 AM »
Bringing this thread back to its original question, I didn't even vote for president. I voted for state senator, representative, and congressional representative, and just didn't select a presidential candidate. I knew Trump was a garbage human being, but so was Hillary, and Gary Johnson was an idiot. I voted for Cruz in the primary, since he was the only Republican who had a chance to beat Trump.

If I had to pick between the two, I'm glad Trump won, if only for Supreme Court picks. I have no idea what that is said about him is true and what isn't, since the mainstream media (on both sides) have lost all credibility. It has turned into the story of the boy who cried wolf, and I just don't care anymore. I'm actually far more concerned with local politics, which also has more bearing on my day-to-day life.

I probably won't vote in the next election either, unless someone other than Trump is the Republican nominee.

And, that's why our country is going down the toliet. If the ability to choose the next supreme court picks, trumps everything else, then you are choosing party over your own country. You are choosing a situation (Republicans will sit on the Mueller findings and not file for impeachment, because of party) where the constitutional underpinnings of our country including checks and balanced are undermined and made meaningless. We are getting to the point the US is becoming a plutocracy, and is no longer a democracy. (sorry for typos trying to type with 1 hand). It's a disgusting situation and we are at the point maybe we should call the experiment in democracy "done".
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 11:23:14 AM by partgypsy »

HBFIRE

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #114 on: January 22, 2019, 11:43:42 AM »
We are getting to the point the US is becoming a plutocracy, and is no longer a democracy. (sorry for typos trying to type with 1 hand). It's a disgusting situation and we are at the point maybe we should call the experiment in democracy "done".

We were never a true democracy, always a republic. 

Dabnasty

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2019, 11:55:07 AM »
We are getting to the point the US is becoming a plutocracy, and is no longer a democracy. (sorry for typos trying to type with 1 hand). It's a disgusting situation and we are at the point maybe we should call the experiment in democracy "done".

We were never a true democracy, always a republic.

The US is a republic, also known as a representative democracy. To refer to the US as a democracy is not incorrect, especially given the context.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #116 on: January 22, 2019, 12:50:15 PM »
Trump is going to meet with the Covington Catholic boys at the White House.

LMAO oh, brother...

www.rawstory.com/2019/01/president-trump-will-meet-covington-catholic-boys-white-house-report/

Prediction: Trump and his people are planning on turning the Covington MAGA kids into the right-wing answer to the Parkland kids.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 01:13:45 PM by Kris »

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #117 on: January 22, 2019, 01:58:15 PM »
This is a really interesting article, breakdown of who voted for Trump. Essentially, voters with evangelical views who do not attend church. They lost trust in the American dream. They are statistically less educated, and less involved with their community. Why they voted for him? Trump gives them - hope. You may say it seems like a misguided hope, but if you don't have church, you don't have community, and you distrust the government, Trump in a way has the same allure as those teleevangelists. 

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/why-ex-churchgoers-flocked-to-trump/
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 02:05:08 PM by partgypsy »

OneStep

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #118 on: January 22, 2019, 02:32:31 PM »
Why are we only holding teenage boys accountable for their behavior? Teenagers are idiots. I was an idiot when I was a teenager and every teen I've ever met had been an idiot at some point. Sure they didn't understand the situation that they were in and didn't act in the most respectable manner, but what about the adults. The Black Hebrew group is responsible for this entire situation. They were shouting racist remarks at these teens for over an hour? They didn't fight back. A Native America man confronts to crowd of teens and walks into the crowd and bangs his drum and chants in their face. These teens with raging hormones were able to contain themselves and not escalate the situation further. The ADULTS in the situation didn't even have that much restraint. What a world we live in that we expect our youth to be more responsible than adults just because they are white and had MAGA hats on. Such a sad world we live in. It's this type of media coverage and reaction that got that asshat Trump elected and will probably get him elected again.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #119 on: January 22, 2019, 04:43:07 PM »
Why are we only holding teenage boys accountable for their behavior? Teenagers are idiots. I was an idiot when I was a teenager and every teen I've ever met had been an idiot at some point. Sure they didn't understand the situation that they were in and didn't act in the most respectable manner, but what about the adults. The Black Hebrew group is responsible for this entire situation. They were shouting racist remarks at these teens for over an hour? They didn't fight back. A Native America man confronts to crowd of teens and walks into the crowd and bangs his drum and chants in their face. These teens with raging hormones were able to contain themselves and not escalate the situation further. The ADULTS in the situation didn't even have that much restraint. What a world we live in that we expect our youth to be more responsible than adults just because they are white and had MAGA hats on. Such a sad world we live in. It's this type of media coverage and reaction that got that asshat Trump elected and will probably get him elected again.

I think everyone can agree that what the Black Israeli group was saying (to both the teens AND the Native American group) was hateful and wrong. But - there were 4 black men, and they said about 100 of this High School students. I don't think the HS students felt unsafe, they felt they were with their tribe, and it was OK to yell things back.  I also ask where were the adults with these kids? According to at least one other report they yelled at a couple women, build the wall, maga and "slut" I think they felt they were king of the hill.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #120 on: January 22, 2019, 05:58:10 PM »
Why are we only holding teenage boys accountable for their behavior? Teenagers are idiots. I was an idiot when I was a teenager and every teen I've ever met had been an idiot at some point. Sure they didn't understand the situation that they were in and didn't act in the most respectable manner, but what about the adults. The Black Hebrew group is responsible for this entire situation. They were shouting racist remarks at these teens for over an hour? They didn't fight back. A Native America man confronts to crowd of teens and walks into the crowd and bangs his drum and chants in their face. These teens with raging hormones were able to contain themselves and not escalate the situation further. The ADULTS in the situation didn't even have that much restraint. What a world we live in that we expect our youth to be more responsible than adults just because they are white and had MAGA hats on. Such a sad world we live in. It's this type of media coverage and reaction that got that asshat Trump elected and will probably get him elected again.

I think everyone can agree that what the Black Israeli group was saying (to both the teens AND the Native American group) was hateful and wrong. But - there were 4 black men, and they said about 100 of this High School students. I don't think the HS students felt unsafe, they felt they were with their tribe, and it was OK to yell things back.  I also ask where were the adults with these kids? According to at least one other report they yelled at a couple women, build the wall, maga and "slut" I think they felt they were king of the hill.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Pretty much this. I mean, of freaking COURSE those four dudes were being a-holes. But uh, that doesn't exactly excuse the fact that the MAGA kids were mocking and deriding the Native American group.

I am quite disturbed that on-line, right-wingers seem to actually be CONFLATING the BHI and the Native Americans as some sort of justification for the MAGA kids' actions. You know, almost as though they see all brown people as kinda the same...

DreamFIRE

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #121 on: January 22, 2019, 08:03:18 PM »
Why are we only holding teenage boys accountable for their behavior? Teenagers are idiots. I was an idiot when I was a teenager and every teen I've ever met had been an idiot at some point. Sure they didn't understand the situation that they were in and didn't act in the most respectable manner, but what about the adults. The Black Hebrew group is responsible for this entire situation. They were shouting racist remarks at these teens for over an hour? They didn't fight back. A Native America man confronts to crowd of teens and walks into the crowd and bangs his drum and chants in their face. These teens with raging hormones were able to contain themselves and not escalate the situation further. The ADULTS in the situation didn't even have that much restraint. What a world we live in that we expect our youth to be more responsible than adults just because they are white and had MAGA hats on. Such a sad world we live in.

Agreed.  The Back Hebrew Israelites are mainly responsible for what developed, and then the native American getting in an innocent kid's personal space with his drum.  Then a one sided misleading video got passed around and played repeatedly in the mainstream media.  I see no fault on the kids' part.  They were just being kids, and quite restrained really at that.  The full video shows what really happened.

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2019, 06:58:47 AM »
Why are we only holding teenage boys accountable for their behavior? Teenagers are idiots. I was an idiot when I was a teenager and every teen I've ever met had been an idiot at some point. Sure they didn't understand the situation that they were in and didn't act in the most respectable manner, but what about the adults. The Black Hebrew group is responsible for this entire situation. They were shouting racist remarks at these teens for over an hour? They didn't fight back. A Native America man confronts to crowd of teens and walks into the crowd and bangs his drum and chants in their face. These teens with raging hormones were able to contain themselves and not escalate the situation further. The ADULTS in the situation didn't even have that much restraint. What a world we live in that we expect our youth to be more responsible than adults just because they are white and had MAGA hats on. Such a sad world we live in.

Agreed.  The Back Hebrew Israelites are mainly responsible for what developed, and then the native American getting in an innocent kid's personal space with his drum.  Then a one sided misleading video got passed around and played repeatedly in the mainstream media.  I see no fault on the kids' part.  They were just being kids, and quite restrained really at that.  The full video shows what really happened.

Welcome to Trump's America. Where a small group of black Hebrews, yelling nasty shit, get's blamed for a large group of  privileged white boys mocking Native Americans through ridiculous dances, chanting and tomahawk chopping. Oh but let's also blame the Native American, you know, because he was beating on a drum trying to diffuse the situation. Those poor innocent white privileged kids. 

By the River

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2019, 07:10:23 AM »
Welcome to Trump's America. Where a small group of black Hebrews, yelling nasty shit, get's blamed for a large group of  privileged white boys mocking Native Americans through ridiculous dances, chanting and tomahawk chopping. Oh but let's also blame the Native American, you know, because he was beating on a drum trying to diffuse the situation. Those poor innocent white privileged kids.

Do you think that beating a drum 2 inches from someone's face is trying to diffuse or escalate the situation?   I'm not sure where you are from, but two inches from one's face is definitely invading one's personal space in the US.  I originally thought the Native American was trying to diffuse when marching between the two groups but went way too far.

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #124 on: January 23, 2019, 07:36:31 AM »
Welcome to Trump's America. Where a small group of black Hebrews, yelling nasty shit, get's blamed for a large group of  privileged white boys mocking Native Americans through ridiculous dances, chanting and tomahawk chopping. Oh but let's also blame the Native American, you know, because he was beating on a drum trying to diffuse the situation. Those poor innocent white privileged kids.

Do you think that beating a drum 2 inches from someone's face is trying to diffuse or escalate the situation?   I'm not sure where you are from, but two inches from one's face is definitely invading one's personal space in the US.  I originally thought the Native American was trying to diffuse when marching between the two groups but went way too far.

Yeah I guess closely surrounding the Native Americans (invading their personal space) and mocking them was the appropriate course of action for the kids? Thanks for proving my point. I don't think anyone should be invading anyone's personal space. Each person/group should stand on their own merits and be responsible for their own actions.

It's a shame, this could be a great teaching/learning moment for some privileged youth. I don't believe they had any ill intent. They are teenagers who do stupid things. But exonerating them of any wrongdoing and even blaming others for the kids actions is teaching them the exact wrong message.   

OneStep

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #125 on: January 23, 2019, 08:09:50 AM »
Have you even watched to full hour plus video? It shows the Native American walking in to the group not the group walking up to them and surrounding them. Did you see the one Native American shouting at the kids to go back to Europe? Did you hear them chant build a wall? No, because in that entire video that didn't happen. I could give a shit about the race of any of the groups. The problem that I have is the intellectual dishonesty of the media and everyone else who jumped to the conclusion of "Bunch of white kids with MAGA hats on scream racial threats and mock Native Americans." You really think those kids deserve to have their lives ruined because of their actions? Go to a chiefs game and ruin all those fans lives. They tomahawk chop every week.

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #126 on: January 23, 2019, 08:43:00 AM »
The problem that I have is the intellectual dishonesty of the media and everyone else who jumped to the conclusion of "Bunch of white kids with MAGA hats on scream racial threats and mock Native Americans."
It's no dishonest to say the kids were mocking the Native American since there is indeed video footage of it.

Quote
You really think those kids deserve to have their lives ruined because of their actions? Go to a chiefs game and ruin all those fans lives. They tomahawk chop every week.
That's quite the racist rant backed by Argumentum ad populum.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-history-of-the-covington-maga-teens-racist-tomahawk-chop

By the River

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #127 on: January 23, 2019, 08:51:01 AM »
Welcome to Trump's America. Where a small group of black Hebrews, yelling nasty shit, get's blamed for a large group of  privileged white boys mocking Native Americans through ridiculous dances, chanting and tomahawk chopping. Oh but let's also blame the Native American, you know, because he was beating on a drum trying to diffuse the situation. Those poor innocent white privileged kids.

Do you think that beating a drum 2 inches from someone's face is trying to diffuse or escalate the situation?   I'm not sure where you are from, but two inches from one's face is definitely invading one's personal space in the US.  I originally thought the Native American was trying to diffuse when marching between the two groups but went way too far.

Yeah I guess closely surrounding the Native Americans (invading their personal space) and mocking them was the appropriate course of action for the kids? Thanks for proving my point. I don't think anyone should be invading anyone's personal space. Each person/group should stand on their own merits and be responsible for their own actions.

It's a shame, this could be a great teaching/learning moment for some privileged youth. I don't believe they had any ill intent. They are teenagers who do stupid things. But exonerating them of any wrongdoing and even blaming others for the kids actions is teaching them the exact wrong message.   

The full Shar Yaqataz Banyamyan facebook video proves my point not yours.  Specifically, watch from 1 hour 12 minutes to 1 hour 14 minutes.  Phillips walks up to and into the crowd of students who have been relatively stationary on the steps and right in front of the steps.  The first few kids move to the side so he continues to advance.  Now he is "surrounded" because he has moved a few rows deep into the crowd.  The smiling kid then does not move.  Of course, the smiling kid has committed a "face crime" and must not be exonerated as Winston describes in "1984"

And yes, when I was young, I chanted a chant similar to these kids at a college football game.  Where should I report to for punishment?   (seriously, doing this chant when younger may be why I don't think that the kids' first thought is "let's make fun of the Native Americans")



Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #128 on: January 23, 2019, 08:51:58 AM »
Have you even watched to full hour plus video? It shows the Native American walking in to the group not the group walking up to them and surrounding them. Did you see the one Native American shouting at the kids to go back to Europe? Did you hear them chant build a wall? No, because in that entire video that didn't happen. I could give a shit about the race of any of the groups. The problem that I have is the intellectual dishonesty of the media and everyone else who jumped to the conclusion of "Bunch of white kids with MAGA hats on scream racial threats and mock Native Americans." You really think those kids deserve to have their lives ruined because of their actions? Go to a chiefs game and ruin all those fans lives. They tomahawk chop every week.

I love how people on your side keep saying "the full video," meant to pretend that it is somehow "the truth." That is a video shot by one of the Black Hebrew Israelites, who narrates it as it is happening. It shows the BHI mocking and calling out to a lot of people, including those kids. The problem is, it's easy for people on the right to then say this "proves" that the kids are innocent victims (and weirdly, they seem to conflate the BHI with the Native group, as though they are the same, which raises its own questions). The problem is, that part of the video is far too distant to see anything that's actually happening between the Covington kids and the four Native men. What it shows is BHI.

At about 1:12, the Native group walks in between the MAGA kids and the BHI. Clearly in a non-confrontational way. There's plenty of room. And the kids start whooping and jumping around -- they are havin' a great old time, laughing their asses off. There is a lot of room between them. And the camera moves away, and when it comes back it shows the kids closing in. Still laughing and jostling each other. Uh, yeah. They're not scared. Notice, too, that the BHI guy is saying "Y'all better not touch him!" It seems he sees the kids closing in and is assuming they're about to get physical.

The Native men are pretty well surrounded by 1:14. Yeah. It sure looks like those kids are scared. They're pretty much ignoring BHI at this point, too.

You know what we don't see? Whether Nathan Philipps took the final step forward to be within one foot of the kid, or whether the kid took the final step forward to be within one foot of Philipps.

But you know what I wouldn't do, as a vastly outnumbered elderly Native American man in a crowd of rowdy, MAGA-hat wearing high school boys who are laughing and jeering at me and totally surrounding me at this point?




MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #129 on: January 23, 2019, 09:01:51 AM »
Welcome to Trump's America. Where a small group of black Hebrews, yelling nasty shit, get's blamed for a large group of  privileged white boys mocking Native Americans through ridiculous dances, chanting and tomahawk chopping. Oh but let's also blame the Native American, you know, because he was beating on a drum trying to diffuse the situation. Those poor innocent white privileged kids.

Do you think that beating a drum 2 inches from someone's face is trying to diffuse or escalate the situation?   I'm not sure where you are from, but two inches from one's face is definitely invading one's personal space in the US.  I originally thought the Native American was trying to diffuse when marching between the two groups but went way too far.

Yeah I guess closely surrounding the Native Americans (invading their personal space) and mocking them was the appropriate course of action for the kids? Thanks for proving my point. I don't think anyone should be invading anyone's personal space. Each person/group should stand on their own merits and be responsible for their own actions.

It's a shame, this could be a great teaching/learning moment for some privileged youth. I don't believe they had any ill intent. They are teenagers who do stupid things. But exonerating them of any wrongdoing and even blaming others for the kids actions is teaching them the exact wrong message.   

The full Shar Yaqataz Banyamyan facebook video proves my point not yours.  Specifically, watch from 1 hour 12 minutes to 1 hour 14 minutes.  Phillips walks up to and into the crowd of students who have been relatively stationary on the steps and right in front of the steps.

No thanks! My point was never to measure the length of drum to the face or whether Nathan walked into the crowd etc. That seems to be your angle. I don't think Nathan and his small group was getting ready to whoop some white boy ass so they deserved to be mocked in a disturbingly racist manner. If you want to keep make excuses for the kids, then you are actually proving the point I was making.

OneStep

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #130 on: January 23, 2019, 09:41:48 AM »
Have you even watched to full hour plus video? It shows the Native American walking in to the group not the group walking up to them and surrounding them. Did you see the one Native American shouting at the kids to go back to Europe? Did you hear them chant build a wall? No, because in that entire video that didn't happen. I could give a shit about the race of any of the groups. The problem that I have is the intellectual dishonesty of the media and everyone else who jumped to the conclusion of "Bunch of white kids with MAGA hats on scream racial threats and mock Native Americans." You really think those kids deserve to have their lives ruined because of their actions? Go to a chiefs game and ruin all those fans lives. They tomahawk chop every week.

I love how people on your side keep saying "the full video," meant to pretend that it is somehow "the truth." That is a video shot by one of the Black Hebrew Israelites, who narrates it as it is happening. It shows the BHI mocking and calling out to a lot of people, including those kids. The problem is, it's easy for people on the right to then say this "proves" that the kids are innocent victims (and weirdly, they seem to conflate the BHI with the Native group, as though they are the same, which raises its own questions). The problem is, that part of the video is far too distant to see anything that's actually happening between the Covington kids and the four Native men. What it shows is BHI.

At about 1:12, the Native group walks in between the MAGA kids and the BHI. Clearly in a non-confrontational way. There's plenty of room. And the kids start whooping and jumping around -- they are havin' a great old time, laughing their asses off. There is a lot of room between them. And the camera moves away, and when it comes back it shows the kids closing in. Still laughing and jostling each other. Uh, yeah. They're not scared. Notice, too, that the BHI guy is saying "Y'all better not touch him!" It seems he sees the kids closing in and is assuming they're about to get physical.

The Native men are pretty well surrounded by 1:14. Yeah. It sure looks like those kids are scared. They're pretty much ignoring BHI at this point, too.

You know what we don't see? Whether Nathan Philipps took the final step forward to be within one foot of the kid, or whether the kid took the final step forward to be within one foot of Philipps.

But you know what I wouldn't do, as a vastly outnumbered elderly Native American man in a crowd of rowdy, MAGA-hat wearing high school boys who are laughing and jeering at me and totally surrounding me at this point?

This isn't a "your side vs my side' issues. Its an issue of everyone looking at 1 small segment of a video and running with a narrative that they want to create. That's my issue. I just have a hard time understanding in this day in age that we are expecting teenagers to act more responsibly than adults. It appears to me that when the Native American small group went over to the kids that they were first joining in and were trying to have fun with the situation. The problem is that they misread the situation and it went from joining in to mocking. Where were the adult leaders of the kids. They should have recognized this behavior and corrected it. They didn't and that's on them. Do you think it's possible that Mr. Phillips was possible going in to the interaction with ulterior motives? Is it possible that they were looking to create a situation by behaving in the manner that they did? Who knows and apparently who cares.

I guess since we are no longer in the days of expecting teenagers to act like idiots that we should all check our privilege an start confessing each and every idiotic mistake we made as teens. Shall we start a new thread?

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #131 on: January 23, 2019, 09:48:18 AM »
Have you even watched to full hour plus video? It shows the Native American walking in to the group not the group walking up to them and surrounding them. Did you see the one Native American shouting at the kids to go back to Europe? Did you hear them chant build a wall? No, because in that entire video that didn't happen. I could give a shit about the race of any of the groups. The problem that I have is the intellectual dishonesty of the media and everyone else who jumped to the conclusion of "Bunch of white kids with MAGA hats on scream racial threats and mock Native Americans." You really think those kids deserve to have their lives ruined because of their actions? Go to a chiefs game and ruin all those fans lives. They tomahawk chop every week.

I love how people on your side keep saying "the full video," meant to pretend that it is somehow "the truth." That is a video shot by one of the Black Hebrew Israelites, who narrates it as it is happening. It shows the BHI mocking and calling out to a lot of people, including those kids. The problem is, it's easy for people on the right to then say this "proves" that the kids are innocent victims (and weirdly, they seem to conflate the BHI with the Native group, as though they are the same, which raises its own questions). The problem is, that part of the video is far too distant to see anything that's actually happening between the Covington kids and the four Native men. What it shows is BHI.

At about 1:12, the Native group walks in between the MAGA kids and the BHI. Clearly in a non-confrontational way. There's plenty of room. And the kids start whooping and jumping around -- they are havin' a great old time, laughing their asses off. There is a lot of room between them. And the camera moves away, and when it comes back it shows the kids closing in. Still laughing and jostling each other. Uh, yeah. They're not scared. Notice, too, that the BHI guy is saying "Y'all better not touch him!" It seems he sees the kids closing in and is assuming they're about to get physical.

The Native men are pretty well surrounded by 1:14. Yeah. It sure looks like those kids are scared. They're pretty much ignoring BHI at this point, too.

You know what we don't see? Whether Nathan Philipps took the final step forward to be within one foot of the kid, or whether the kid took the final step forward to be within one foot of Philipps.

But you know what I wouldn't do, as a vastly outnumbered elderly Native American man in a crowd of rowdy, MAGA-hat wearing high school boys who are laughing and jeering at me and totally surrounding me at this point?

This isn't a "your side vs my side' issues. Its an issue of everyone looking at 1 small segment of a video and running with a narrative that they want to create. That's my issue. I just have a hard time understanding in this day in age that we are expecting teenagers to act more responsibly than adults. It appears to me that when the Native American small group went over to the kids that they were first joining in and were trying to have fun with the situation. The problem is that they misread the situation and it went from joining in to mocking. Where were the adult leaders of the kids. They should have recognized this behavior and corrected it. They didn't and that's on them. Do you think it's possible that Mr. Phillips was possible going in to the interaction with ulterior motives? Is it possible that they were looking to create a situation by behaving in the manner that they did? Who knows and apparently who cares.

I guess since we are no longer in the days of expecting teenagers to act like idiots that we should all check our privilege an start confessing each and every idiotic mistake we made as teens. Shall we start a new thread?

Well, he said he was not.

Or are you saying we shouldn't take him at his word?

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #132 on: January 23, 2019, 10:08:19 AM »
It appears to me that when the Native American small group went over to the kids that they were first joining in and were trying to have fun with the situation. The problem is that they misread the situation and it went from joining in to mocking.
That's much more reasonable than just saying "hey go to a chiefs game." I'm not sure they were actually joining in though. Do you know any Native American chants and/or traditional dances? I sure don't. I saw a couple kids dancing like something out of a teenage dance club. Looked more like mockery.   

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Where were the adult leaders of the kids.
Good question. I saw one chaperone speak up and say he was trying to get the kids to clam down and relax. Trying to keep the kids from engaging. He was only mildly successful with a few of the kids

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Do you think it's possible that Mr. Phillips was possible going in to the interaction with ulterior motives? Is it possible that they were looking to create a situation by behaving in the manner that they did?
Anything is possible. But I see nothing to suggest there was an ulterior motive. The kids sure weren't acting in fear. They seemed to be having a jolly old time.
 
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I guess since we are no longer in the days of expecting teenagers to act like idiots that we should all check our privilege an start confessing each and every idiotic mistake we made as teens. Shall we start a new thread?
That's a great ideal. We just had a conversation the other day with our teenager after he was caught saying some pretty offensive stuff. He wasn't aware how offensive it was and why. But that's the problem I have with this whole situation. People jumping to the kid's defense are acting like they did nothing wrong and even in some cases blaming it on someone else.   

OneStep

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #133 on: January 23, 2019, 10:14:03 AM »
I honestly don't know. I want to trust that he is being truthful. It's very hard to trust anything in this story based off of how it was covered. I would like to trust what the kid who was in front of him stated the other night on the news that he was attempting to deescalate the situation by standing there and not fighting back with words. I want to believe that I can trust him when he said that he didn't hear any of his group yelling insults back at the protesters.  No one knows what was actually in the hearts of the teens or the Native American group. I just think that we as adults need to do a better job at not immediately jumping to conclusions.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #134 on: January 23, 2019, 10:17:56 AM »
I honestly don't know. I want to trust that he is being truthful. It's very hard to trust anything in this story based off of how it was covered. I would like to trust what the kid who was in front of him stated the other night on the news that he was attempting to deescalate the situation by standing there and not fighting back with words. I want to believe that I can trust him when he said that he didn't hear any of his group yelling insults back at the protesters.  No one knows what was actually in the hearts of the teens or the Native American group. I just think that we as adults need to do a better job at not immediately jumping to conclusions.

Maybe we could avoid over reaction as well.  I don't think anyone was a saint in the situation, but the hatred directed towards the kids is over the top.  Many in the media were complicit in this.

OneStep

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2019, 10:23:02 AM »
It appears to me that when the Native American small group went over to the kids that they were first joining in and were trying to have fun with the situation. The problem is that they misread the situation and it went from joining in to mocking.
That's much more reasonable than just saying "hey go to a chiefs game." I'm not sure they were actually joining in though. Do you know any Native American chants and/or traditional dances? I sure don't. I saw a couple kids dancing like something out of a teenage dance club. Looked more like mockery.   
Quote

My BIL and my nephews and niece are registered members of the Ottawa Tribe of Oklahoma. I have attended a few of their Pow wows, but no I don't know any of the chants/prayers but had seen their traditional dances. I have reached out to my BIL's father as he is more involved with the tribe to get his perspective on the situation. I'm sure my biases are coming in to play, but I also think others aren't being honest with their biases. Everyone one hates Trump so much that anyone tied to him is a Racist. It's rather frustrating.

Edited to try and fix quote

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #136 on: January 23, 2019, 11:00:49 AM »
It appears to me that when the Native American small group went over to the kids that they were first joining in and were trying to have fun with the situation. The problem is that they misread the situation and it went from joining in to mocking.
That's much more reasonable than just saying "hey go to a chiefs game." I'm not sure they were actually joining in though. Do you know any Native American chants and/or traditional dances? I sure don't. I saw a couple kids dancing like something out of a teenage dance club. Looked more like mockery.

My BIL and my nephews and niece are registered members of the Ottawa Tribe of Oklahoma. I have attended a few of their Pow wows, but no I don't know any of the chants/prayers but had seen their traditional dances. I have reached out to my BIL's father as he is more involved with the tribe to get his perspective on the situation. I'm sure my biases are coming in to play, but I also think others aren't being honest with their biases. Everyone one hates Trump so much that anyone tied to him is a Racist. It's rather frustrating.

Edited to try and fix quote

You know, it's also pretty frustrating to constantly hear that not everyone tied to Trump is a racist.  I get it, but it's not an unreasonable assumption to make and nobody is forcing anybody to associate with him.  If people don't like others assuming that they're racist then they're entirely free (encouraged even) to stop associating themselves with him.

OneStep

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #137 on: January 23, 2019, 11:44:31 AM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative? It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #138 on: January 23, 2019, 11:49:37 AM »
It appears to me that when the Native American small group went over to the kids that they were first joining in and were trying to have fun with the situation. The problem is that they misread the situation and it went from joining in to mocking.
That's much more reasonable than just saying "hey go to a chiefs game." I'm not sure they were actually joining in though. Do you know any Native American chants and/or traditional dances? I sure don't. I saw a couple kids dancing like something out of a teenage dance club. Looked more like mockery.

My BIL and my nephews and niece are registered members of the Ottawa Tribe of Oklahoma. I have attended a few of their Pow wows, but no I don't know any of the chants/prayers but had seen their traditional dances. I have reached out to my BIL's father as he is more involved with the tribe to get his perspective on the situation. I'm sure my biases are coming in to play, but I also think others aren't being honest with their biases. Everyone one hates Trump so much that anyone tied to him is a Racist. It's rather frustrating.

Edited to try and fix quote

You know, it's also pretty frustrating to constantly hear that not everyone tied to Trump is a racist.  I get it, but it's not an unreasonable assumption to make and nobody is forcing anybody to associate with him.  If people don't like others assuming that they're racist then they're entirely free (encouraged even) to stop associating themselves with him.

Agreed. Statements like that seem to pretend that there are two fixed points on either end of a straight line: point A is "racist" and point B is "not a racist."

There's such a thing as "not overtly racist but more than willing to look at acts of racism by one's own party/team/tribe with a complacent or even a blind eye."

And hearing those people spend the majority of their energy constantly claiming that they're the good ones on the team and accusing "the other side" of demonizing them... and very little or no energy actually denouncing or working to stop the racism that's happening by the team they've picked... well, it gets old. 


Laserjet3051

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #139 on: January 23, 2019, 11:55:08 AM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative? It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

Bingo! Hit the nail right on the head. TDS is in full force and their only way to rationalize how any white conservative can align with the current administration is by oversimplistic stereotyping. It is this behavior that will ensure a full blown cultural war ahead of us.

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #140 on: January 23, 2019, 12:24:59 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative? 

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

ETA:
It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

You seem to be ignoring all of the conservatives out there who haven't been called out for potentially racist actions.  It usually takes some questionable action on the part of the conservative for anyone to care enough about them to call them out in the first place and I can't really blame liberals for not giving them the benefit of the doubt in these situations.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 12:34:31 PM by shenlong55 »

cliffhanger

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #141 on: January 23, 2019, 12:31:24 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #142 on: January 23, 2019, 12:56:12 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

The assumption of good intent is gonna have to be at least somewhat dependent on how likely those actions are to have good intentions behind them. If you punch me in the face and then expect me to excuse you because you say your intentions were good... well, yeah, not so much without a REALLY good explanation.

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #143 on: January 23, 2019, 01:10:03 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

I assume that almost every action ever taken by a human being has been done with 'good intent'.  But if you* take an action with good intent that ends up having bad results for others then the proper thing to do is to apologize and take steps to avoid making the same mistake in the future.  It shouldn't be hard, since you say that the bad result wasn't what you intended to happen anyway.  Also, you definitely shouldn't snap at people who point out that your action failed to produce your desired result, they're just trying to help you achieve what you say you actually intended to achieve after all.  If you can't handle that process properly, then I think it's reasonable to assume that you didn't actually have 'good intentions' after all.

*The royal you.

OneStep

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #144 on: January 23, 2019, 01:14:49 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

The assumption of good intent is gonna have to be at least somewhat dependent on how likely those actions are to have good intentions behind them. If you punch me in the face and then expect me to excuse you because you say your intentions were good... well, yeah, not so much without a REALLY good explanation.

So we can find common ground it is possible to assume a person's actions are done with good intent.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #145 on: January 23, 2019, 01:19:37 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

The assumption of good intent is gonna have to be at least somewhat dependent on how likely those actions are to have good intentions behind them. If you punch me in the face and then expect me to excuse you because you say your intentions were good... well, yeah, not so much without a REALLY good explanation.

So we can find common ground it is possible to assume a person's actions are done with good intent.

It is possible to assume that when there is a reasonable explanation available.

However, I'm with Shenlong above. If your actual intentions are good, then apologizing ought to be easy. As should be a willingness to accept that your intentions didn't match the actual outcome.

If your reaction is instead defensiveness -- which is a reaction that pulls the attention back on YOU rather than the person you've harmed... well, then yeah, it kind of calls into question your intention in the first place.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #146 on: January 23, 2019, 01:43:35 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

The assumption of good intent is gonna have to be at least somewhat dependent on how likely those actions are to have good intentions behind them. If you punch me in the face and then expect me to excuse you because you say your intentions were good... well, yeah, not so much without a REALLY good explanation.

So we can find common ground it is possible to assume a person's actions are done with good intent.

It is possible to assume that when there is a reasonable explanation available.

However, I'm with Shenlong above. If your actual intentions are good, then apologizing ought to be easy. As should be a willingness to accept that your intentions didn't match the actual outcome.

If your reaction is instead defensiveness -- which is a reaction that pulls the attention back on YOU rather than the person you've harmed... well, then yeah, it kind of calls into question your intention in the first place.

Are you referring to students?  Has anyone else in this apologized?  To add - I mean direct participants.  I've seen several commentators apologize, but have any of the direct participants apologized?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 01:51:24 PM by Midwest »

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #147 on: January 23, 2019, 01:52:53 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

The assumption of good intent is gonna have to be at least somewhat dependent on how likely those actions are to have good intentions behind them. If you punch me in the face and then expect me to excuse you because you say your intentions were good... well, yeah, not so much without a REALLY good explanation.

So we can find common ground it is possible to assume a person's actions are done with good intent.

It is possible to assume that when there is a reasonable explanation available.

However, I'm with Shenlong above. If your actual intentions are good, then apologizing ought to be easy. As should be a willingness to accept that your intentions didn't match the actual outcome.

If your reaction is instead defensiveness -- which is a reaction that pulls the attention back on YOU rather than the person you've harmed... well, then yeah, it kind of calls into question your intention in the first place.

Are you referring to students?  Has anyone else in this apologized?  To add - I mean direct participants.  I've seen several commentators apologize, but have any of the direct participants apologized?

I'm not aware that the students apologized. The only actions I've seen from any of them has been to hire Mitch McConnell's buddy's PR firm.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #148 on: January 23, 2019, 01:57:04 PM »
From what is reported, both their High School and the Catholic diocese apologized.


From the Washington Post:
"In a joint statement to the Cincinnati Enquirer , the Roman Catholic Diocese of Covington and Covington Catholic High School apologized to Nathan Phillips, an Omaha elder and Vietnam veteran who attended the Indigenous Peoples March in Washington on Friday. The march coincided with the annual March for Life, an anti-abortion rally attended by some students at Covington Catholic High School in northern Kentucky.

Officials say the students’ behavior is opposed to the church’s teachings on the dignity and respect of the human person."

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #149 on: January 23, 2019, 01:57:52 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

The assumption of good intent is gonna have to be at least somewhat dependent on how likely those actions are to have good intentions behind them. If you punch me in the face and then expect me to excuse you because you say your intentions were good... well, yeah, not so much without a REALLY good explanation.

So we can find common ground it is possible to assume a person's actions are done with good intent.

It is possible to assume that when there is a reasonable explanation available.

However, I'm with Shenlong above. If your actual intentions are good, then apologizing ought to be easy. As should be a willingness to accept that your intentions didn't match the actual outcome.

If your reaction is instead defensiveness -- which is a reaction that pulls the attention back on YOU rather than the person you've harmed... well, then yeah, it kind of calls into question your intention in the first place.

Are you referring to students?  Has anyone else in this apologized?  To add - I mean direct participants.  I've seen several commentators apologize, but have any of the direct participants apologized?

I'm not aware that the students apologized. The only actions I've seen from any of them has been to hire Mitch McConnell's buddy's PR firm.

Has anyone else in the situation apologized?  If not, is there a reason you are holding the students to a higher standard? 

With regard to the PR firm, people were wishing them physical harm and trying to ruin their lives over this.  Should they just let that happen?