Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 20717 times)

Peter Parker

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« on: December 13, 2018, 08:22:15 AM »
NOTE:  I EDITED TO ASK BETTER QUESTIONS.  I DON'T THINK MY ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS GETTING TO THE HEART OF THE ISSUE--APOLOGIES TO THOSE THAT ALREADY ANSWERED.


There have been several discussions about whether people regretted voting Republican in 2016.  And I suppose that the 2018 election answered that question to some degree...But I'm interested in those of you who voted for Trump--

Given there have been 36 indictments and/or plea deals thus far, indications that at least 16 members of the Trump team have been connected to Russians, campaign finance concerns over payments to porn stars and playmates, Mexico isn't paying for the wall, the lack of civility in government, "dirty deeds" (done dirt cheap?) as Michael Cohen points out, that may not yet have come to light....

I'm wondering:



GIVEN A CHOICE BETWEEN CLINTON AND  TRUMP, AND KNOWING ALL THAT YOU KNOW NOW, WOULD YOU STILL VOTE FOR TRUMP?  WHY?

IF YOU VOTED FOR TRUMP, AND KNOWING ALL THAT YOU KNOW NOW, WILL YOU VOTE FOR HIM IN 2020?  WHY WILL YOU (OR WON'T) VOTE FOR HIM?



Thanks for the honest discussion


Edited to correct many typos...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 09:36:54 AM by Peter Parker »

saijoe

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 95
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2018, 09:06:28 AM »
I wasn't really on the Trump Wagon.  But I do consider myself to be conservative, and there's almost no candidate that's conservative these days (I voted for Gary Johnson).  But I try to be thoughtful and I do understand the appeal of Trump.  For many years, all the Democrat candidate had to do was label the Republican candidate as sexist, homophobic, white supremacist, or any other "ist" and the the Republican would cower away with his tail between his / her legs.  Trump is the first person that doesn't back down.  But he's obviously not a good guy. 

But still, with that said, I think I match the majority of people in being fiscally conservative and socially liberal and it seems there's never anyone in either mainstream party that represents that model.  It doesn't seem to be the type of model that gets people fired up.  And I think that's too bad. 

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2018, 09:08:09 AM »
I didn't vote for Trump, I voted 3rd party in a solid blue state and was pleasantly surprised when Trump won. 

Do I think he is a corrupt, crooked slimebag?  Sure.  But I thought that about both major party candidates that ran.  At least the one who agrees with me on major issues is the one who won.  I also think the left, and especially the media, are absolutely desperate to dig up any possible dirt they can find on him.  Had the other candidate won (edit: fixed homonym), I absolutely agree the right would have acted the same way, but I do not believe the media (aside from Fox news and the fringe) would have, and they would have done what they could to shield her from criticism.  I would find that extremely troubling.

I know this is "whataboutism" or whatever, but at the end of the day, we had two real options for President, so given a binary choice, I'm not unhappy with the one that was picked.  Do I wish it was almost anyone other than him?  Sure, but one of the few that I think would have been worse was his opponent, so I'm not sad he won. 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 09:16:37 AM by Chris22 »

HBFIRE

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 767
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2018, 09:20:46 AM »

But still, with that said, I think I match the majority of people in being fiscally conservative and socially liberal and it seems there's never anyone in either mainstream party that represents that model.  It doesn't seem to be the type of model that gets people fired up.  And I think that's too bad.

Exactly this.  Compromise doesn't get voters, so politicians cater to the extremes.  Unfortunately moderates are gone.  Democrats aren't the same party as they were when our parents grew up, they have moved to the far left.  The republican party is in shambles too.  Logic would dictate a new party in the center, but as mentioned this doesn't appeal to people's emotions and get voters.  As far as conservatives go, I'm hoping Ben Sasse makes a run, there's a true moderate and a brilliant guy.  I voted for Trump because the alternative was a no go.

Zola.

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
  • Location: UK
  • Let's do this.
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2018, 10:02:04 AM »
I dont really follow the Trump news in America that much - is Trump at risk of being booted out early?  Or does the world have to suffer this fool's stupid faces and comments for another couple of years at minimum?

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2018, 10:09:14 AM »
I dont really follow the Trump news in America that much - is Trump at risk of being booted out early?  Or does the world have to suffer this fool's stupid faces and comments for another couple of years at minimum?

There's some kind of weird revenge fantasy among some in the US where Trump gets booted because Russia somehow and then we end up with Hillary on the throne where she belonged all along.  Literally, there were articles written about it following the election. 

https://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-president-lawrence-lessig-post-686077

innkeeper77

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 225
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2018, 10:23:57 AM »
I dont really follow the Trump news in America that much - is Trump at risk of being booted out early?  Or does the world have to suffer this fool's stupid faces and comments for another couple of years at minimum?

Probably not, impeachment would have to get through the senate. However, the "witch hunt" of the Mueller investigation has found a LOT of "real witches", so we may be seeing interesting revelations soon. The most likely resolution is a political decision in 2020, but there are likely impeachable offenses (Don't forget impeachment is a 100% political process). Hillary wouldn't be president, don't be silly... but most people on the left would prefer a Mike Pence presidency over trump simply because of all of the norms trump has trampled upon that Pence wouldn't. (Souce, the extremely liberal podcast Opening Arguments makes this argument)

I'm not this threads target audience, I was a republican who voted blue in 2016, and after seeing what many of the GOP representatives pivoted to after trump gained power, including my representative, I denounced my affiliation and became a blue TICKET voter who donates to the left. Todays democratic party is a lot more centrist than it once was, the overton window has just shifted the goalposts...

KCM5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 864
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2018, 11:12:37 AM »
I dont really follow the Trump news in America that much - is Trump at risk of being booted out early?  Or does the world have to suffer this fool's stupid faces and comments for another couple of years at minimum?

We don’t have a parliamentary system, so it’s not as simple to get rid of a president as it is to get rid of a British prime minister. I was feeling a little jealous of that yesterday! In our history we’ve only had two presidents impeached and they both served the remainder of their terms. Nixon, of course, was not impeached but resigned. I don’t see our current president resigning any time soon.

Nicholas Carter

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 122
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2018, 11:49:26 AM »

Democrats aren't the same party as they were when our parents grew up, they have moved to the far left. 
Depends on how you frame it: Democratic congressmen have, for most of the last 20 years, been noticeably to the right of the average Democrat voter or state rep, and are after this election more in line with their base. So the Democrats in congress have moved a lot.
But the average Democratic voter still polls basically where they did in the 80's: equally committed to gun control, equally committed to secular space; changes have occurred in sentiments about why racial, sexual, and LGBT discrimination are wrong, and what strategy best addresses them, but the sentiment that they are wrong, and how serious that is, is unchanged from Rodney King and Matthew Shepard.

Barbaebigode

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2018, 11:50:43 AM »
Well, Hillary would shoot two people on fifth avenue...

Norioch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 231
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 01:01:18 PM »
Democrats aren't the same party as they were when our parents grew up, they have moved to the far left.

No, they really fucking haven't. I wish they would, because I want far left policies, but both Obama and Hillary Clinton were quite moderate.

Norioch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 231
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2018, 01:02:39 PM »
There's some kind of weird revenge fantasy among some in the US where Trump gets booted because Russia somehow and then we end up with Hillary on the throne where she belonged all along.  Literally, there were articles written about it following the election. 

https://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-president-lawrence-lessig-post-686077

Nobody on the left cares about Clinton anymore. It's the right that won't shut up about her, because they need a boogeyman.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1496
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2018, 02:01:18 PM »
I dont really follow the Trump news in America that much - is Trump at risk of being booted out early?  Or does the world have to suffer this fool's stupid faces and comments for another couple of years at minimum?

There's some kind of weird revenge fantasy among some in the US where Trump gets booted because Russia somehow and then we end up with Hillary on the throne where she belonged all along.  Literally, there were articles written about it following the election. 

https://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-president-lawrence-lessig-post-686077

From the article:

Quote
To be clear, constitutional law expert Lessig is not calling for a Clinton ascendancy, but was merely playing out a hypothetical chain of events should a conspiracy be proven

It was a nothing article from more than a year ago describing a way that it would be technically possible while acknowledging that it will not happen. When you say "some" people are hoping for this, I suppose that may be true, but it is in no way representative of what's going on in the US. "some in the US" also believe the earth is flat. If we want to have a productive conversation, we should ignore those people.

The answer to Zola's question is much more complex than this, but I would say yes, he is possibly at risk of impeachment and removal but that depends on what congress decides to do with the results of the Mueller investigation and what more comes out of that investigation.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 02:08:09 PM by Dabnasty »

vern

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 571

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2018, 04:20:05 PM »
I think I match the majority of people in being fiscally conservative and socially liberal and it seems there's never anyone in either mainstream party that represents that model.  It doesn't seem to be the type of model that gets people fired up.  And I think that's too bad.

Probably because that model doesn't really exist. Fiscal conservatism entails a smaller government which in turn means less protections against discrimination, the right to receive healthcare and basic food if you cannot afford it and workers comp, etc. Fiscal conservatives often agree with the scientific consensus on climate change and that something needs to be done about it. But rolling back environmental regulations contradicts fiscal conservatism.

Then you have tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the wealthy and corporations. This brings in less revenue for the government who in turn cut social programs to make up for this short fall.

It sounds great in theory, it really does. But it's not practical. You simply cannot have it both ways.

BDWW

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 449
  • Location: MT
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2018, 05:01:35 PM »
I didn't vote for trump last election, but probably will in the next. Primarily because of the current insanity of the left/media.


Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3806
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2018, 05:02:11 PM »
I didn't vote for trump last election, but probably will in the next. Primarily because of the current insanity of the left/media.

Lol

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2018, 05:26:50 PM »
I didn't vote for trump last election, but probably will in the next. Primarily because of the current insanity of the left/media.

I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary.  I like Trump on border security and immigration, and I liked Hillary on healthcare over Trump.  There's never the perfect candidate.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1496
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2018, 07:40:23 AM »
I didn't vote for trump last election, but probably will in the next. Primarily because of the current insanity of the left/media.

Do you have any particular media outlets that you believe have gone insane? Or do you believe all of the mainstream media is being unreasonable?

Also relevant, how do you feel about what's come out of the Mueller investigation up to this point?

davisgang90

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
  • Location: Roanoke, VA
    • Photography by Rich Davis
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2018, 09:24:23 AM »
Another unrepentant Trump voter.

I would have chosen almost any other GOP candidate, but he's what we got.  I wish he would keep his mouth closed more often and not use twitter.  Other than that, I'm pretty happy with most of his policies except his adding to the debt with more deficit spending.  I'll vote for him again unless we get a true third party candidate who better aligns with my values. 


Laserjet3051

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 90
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2018, 10:05:34 AM »
Total flame bait here, but I guess I'll throw some raw meat on the fire anyhow.

Add one more unrepentant Trump voter to that list. No, despite Trumps inane sophomoric Twitter rants and the unfortunate high turnover and corruption of his top staff, many, but not all, of his policy positions align with this independent voter's values. Maybe more importantly, he represents the most powerful opposition to the dangerous, vile policies/positions that Dems vehemently push. Sure, the coal/oil support is misguided, as is blowing up deficits, but damned if I'm going to let dems advance their open/no borders policies. Catch and release? This boots on the ground observer can  honestly state that such dem policies have DESTROYED this once great state of CA. We cant let the infection spread across the remaining 49 states. There are many infections to battle; far too many to discuss here.

We'll see who runs in 2020; I'm certainly open to the possibility of voting for Trump again.

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1494
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2018, 11:05:56 AM »
I hate trump with a fiery passion. I would’ve voted for any other republican (maybe not Cruz) over him.

My hate has grown stronger since his presidency.

That being said, I think the corruption in the DNC favoring Hillary is about as bad as anything Trump is being accused of and should’ve got a lot more publicity.

Not a chance in hell I’d vote for Bernie due to his extremist socialist beliefs. Probably wouldn’t vote for Hillary or Warren either.

If Biden ran I’d easily pick him over Trump. “Maybe” Beto as well.

As bad as Trump is, the left is just as pathetic for choosing their own candidates who are so terrible they couldn’t win. Really? Bernie or Hillary was the best options? No thanks.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2018, 11:40:18 AM »
Eh threads like this always remind me of probably the most honest thing Trump has ever said (paraphrasing of course) that he could commit a crime in full view of the American public, and still have supporters. Gotta give him credit, he knew how devoted his followers were.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2018, 11:41:25 AM »
I hate trump with a fiery passion. I would’ve voted for any other republican (maybe not Cruz) over him.

My hate has grown stronger since his presidency.

That being said, I think the corruption in the DNC favoring Hillary is about as bad as anything Trump is being accused of and should’ve got a lot more publicity.

Not a chance in hell I’d vote for Bernie due to his extremist socialist beliefs. Probably wouldn’t vote for Hillary or Warren either.

If Biden ran I’d easily pick him over Trump. “Maybe” Beto as well.

As bad as Trump is, the left is just as pathetic for choosing their own candidates who are so terrible they couldn’t win. Really? Bernie or Hillary was the best options? No thanks.

Can clarify this statement?  Are you saying that a political organization operating a primary according to previously existing rules relating to delegate apportionment and according to a preset debate schedule is just as bad as anything Trump is accused of?   Can you identify an action of the DNC that is as bad as selling off our foreign policy to benefit Vladimir Putin in exchange for receiving Russian help with the election? Because that is one of the things he's accused of.   I just can't wrap my head around the idea that not moving a debate from a Saturday night to allegedly help Bernie is anywhere in the ballpark of not enforcing sanctions because Vladimir doesn't like it and he's the daddy now.

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1494
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2018, 12:20:42 PM »
I hate trump with a fiery passion. I would’ve voted for any other republican (maybe not Cruz) over him.

My hate has grown stronger since his presidency.

That being said, I think the corruption in the DNC favoring Hillary is about as bad as anything Trump is being accused of and should’ve got a lot more publicity.

Not a chance in hell I’d vote for Bernie due to his extremist socialist beliefs. Probably wouldn’t vote for Hillary or Warren either.

If Biden ran I’d easily pick him over Trump. “Maybe” Beto as well.

As bad as Trump is, the left is just as pathetic for choosing their own candidates who are so terrible they couldn’t win. Really? Bernie or Hillary was the best options? No thanks.

Can clarify this statement?  Are you saying that a political organization operating a primary according to previously existing rules relating to delegate apportionment and according to a preset debate schedule is just as bad as anything Trump is accused of?   Can you identify an action of the DNC that is as bad as selling off our foreign policy to benefit Vladimir Putin in exchange for receiving Russian help with the election? Because that is one of the things he's accused of.   I just can't wrap my head around the idea that not moving a debate from a Saturday night to allegedly help Bernie is anywhere in the ballpark of not enforcing sanctions because Vladimir doesn't like it and he's the daddy now.

Sorry - I shouldn’t have used the word “accused.” He has been accused of a wild list of things. I should have used the term “presently found personally guilty of.”

If you think all the DNC is guilty of is “allegedly” moving a debate to a Saturday to help Bernie, then you are vastly ill-informed. The reason the DNC chair resigned was due to favoring Hillary. It’s clear by your post that you are very liberal, so much that you aren’t even aware of this obvious corruption within your own party.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2018, 12:51:49 PM »
Great.  Can you identify actions taken by the DNC that fall under the umbrella of corruption?  Because-as vastly uninformed far left liberal-I'd really appreciate it.  Consider me ready to be informed.  I guess to be apples to apples, I could also require these actions to be "presently found guilty of" before I take them seriously since that's the standard you apply to Trump. But if we are just looking at resignations as a sign of guilt, then I direct you to the White House.  I hear there's an open position or two.

I suspect that there won't be anything in that list since I'm unaware of any laws that dictate how superdelegates are apportioned, which primaries are scheduled first, how many debates there are, whether states run a caucus or not, if primaries are open or closed, etc. I'm also unaware of any laws that prevent members of a political organization from bitching about candidates in their primary who just joined the party and then start complaining about how everything is run. Can you please identify these laws for me?  Can you specifically draw a line to how the actions of the DNC were breaking those laws and who performed those actions?  How were these actions corrupt?

(I eagerly await a response that does not mention Seth Rich or that one guy from Pakistan working at the DNC who apparently stole money)

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2018, 01:18:40 PM »
I should have edited to add that, even if we get a list of corrupt actions by the DNC, is that somehow comparable to the scores of indictments that Mueller has issued and the many guilty pleas?  I think trix's thesis is that "I had to vote for Trump-did you see how corrupt the DNC is?"  I'm just not sure that the DNC being corrupt (which hasn't exactly been established if we are only counting presently found guilty of as the standard) is comparable to the corruption of the Trump campaign.  Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Cohen have all plead guilty.  These were Trump's main advisors during the campaign.  So apples to apples, corrupt campaign machinery to corrupt campaign machinery, I'm pretty sure Trump's campaign takes the easy win here.  Under your own "presently found guilty of" standard.  I'm just not really sure why DNC corruption is such a persuasive issue to you when Trump's campaign is basically all headed to jail.

Again, please inform me otherwise, since you've said I'm vastly uninformed.

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1494
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2018, 01:54:30 PM »
I should have edited to add that, even if we get a list of corrupt actions by the DNC, is that somehow comparable to the scores of indictments that Mueller has issued and the many guilty pleas?  I think trix's thesis is that "I had to vote for Trump-did you see how corrupt the DNC is?"  I'm just not sure that the DNC being corrupt (which hasn't exactly been established if we are only counting presently found guilty of as the standard) is comparable to the corruption of the Trump campaign.  Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Cohen have all plead guilty.  These were Trump's main advisors during the campaign.  So apples to apples, corrupt campaign machinery to corrupt campaign machinery, I'm pretty sure Trump's campaign takes the easy win here.  Under your own "presently found guilty of" standard.  I'm just not really sure why DNC corruption is such a persuasive issue to you when Trump's campaign is basically all headed to jail.

Again, please inform me otherwise, since you've said I'm vastly uninformed.

A brief look at you previous posting history of the last 50 posts and all but a few have been these elaborate political internet arguments. There is no dollar amount that I would be interested in to partake of this discussion with you. If it makes you feel better, you’ve won the Internet today, granted, I feel I’ve won the long haul for not wasting nearly as much time as you have getting worked up on the internet

You’d be better off going back to the blog posts..

Start here.. the low information diet: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/01/the-low-information-diet/

bwall

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2018, 01:55:29 PM »
Maybe more importantly, he represents the most powerful opposition to the dangerous, vile policies/positions that Dems vehemently push. Sure, the coal/oil support is misguided, as is blowing up deficits, but damned if I'm going to let dems advance their open/no borders policies. Catch and release? This boots on the ground observer can  honestly state that such dem policies have DESTROYED this once great state of CA. We cant let the infection spread across the remaining 49 states. There are many infections to battle; far too many to discuss here.

OK. Let's just talk about one problem, then.

The GOP could end illegal immigration overnight if they wanted to. But, then why should they do that? They have your vote now and forever. If you got zero illegal immigration, then you might not be motivated to vote for them. That problem would be solved and so your loyalty might waver. This is why the GOP prefers to have illegal immigration as a vote whip.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1496
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2018, 02:09:53 PM »
I should have edited to add that, even if we get a list of corrupt actions by the DNC, is that somehow comparable to the scores of indictments that Mueller has issued and the many guilty pleas?  I think trix's thesis is that "I had to vote for Trump-did you see how corrupt the DNC is?"  I'm just not sure that the DNC being corrupt (which hasn't exactly been established if we are only counting presently found guilty of as the standard) is comparable to the corruption of the Trump campaign.  Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Cohen have all plead guilty.  These were Trump's main advisors during the campaign.  So apples to apples, corrupt campaign machinery to corrupt campaign machinery, I'm pretty sure Trump's campaign takes the easy win here.  Under your own "presently found guilty of" standard.  I'm just not really sure why DNC corruption is such a persuasive issue to you when Trump's campaign is basically all headed to jail.

Again, please inform me otherwise, since you've said I'm vastly uninformed.

A brief look at you previous posting history of the last 50 posts and all but a few have been these elaborate political internet arguments. There is no dollar amount that I would be interested in to partake of this discussion with you. If it makes you feel better, you’ve won the Internet today, granted, I feel I’ve won the long haul for not wasting nearly as much time as you have getting worked up on the internet

You’d be better off going back to the blog posts..

Start here.. the low information diet: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/01/the-low-information-diet/

If you're not interested in a discussion I understand, but could you at least provide a few examples of the DNC corruption you're referring to? I think that would be staying on topic and I'm sure someone else would be willing to carry on the discussion if you can get it started.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2018, 02:43:02 PM »
I should have edited to add that, even if we get a list of corrupt actions by the DNC, is that somehow comparable to the scores of indictments that Mueller has issued and the many guilty pleas?  I think trix's thesis is that "I had to vote for Trump-did you see how corrupt the DNC is?"  I'm just not sure that the DNC being corrupt (which hasn't exactly been established if we are only counting presently found guilty of as the standard) is comparable to the corruption of the Trump campaign.  Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Cohen have all plead guilty.  These were Trump's main advisors during the campaign.  So apples to apples, corrupt campaign machinery to corrupt campaign machinery, I'm pretty sure Trump's campaign takes the easy win here.  Under your own "presently found guilty of" standard.  I'm just not really sure why DNC corruption is such a persuasive issue to you when Trump's campaign is basically all headed to jail.

Again, please inform me otherwise, since you've said I'm vastly uninformed.


A brief look at you previous posting history of the last 50 posts and all but a few have been these elaborate political internet arguments. There is no dollar amount that I would be interested in to partake of this discussion with you. If it makes you feel better, you’ve won the Internet today, granted, I feel I’ve won the long haul for not wasting nearly as much time as you have getting worked up on the internet

You’d be better off going back to the blog posts..

Start here.. the low information diet: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/01/the-low-information-diet/


We've all lost, not just you. Because Trump is President, partly because many Trump voters take their red hats and go home when faced with facts that contradict their world view.

I've been debating in good faith, but you've repeatedly called me names and implied that I'm hysterical all while presenting no facts to back up the thing I'm supposedly uninformed about.   

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1525
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2018, 03:30:11 PM »
Up on Hillbilly Mountain, they aren't happy with a lot of economic stuff going on right now with Trump, after things had started off relatively well. However, they are being presented with people like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who want a state takeover of the economy (in their view) and that scares them, so they stick with Trump.

The only chance the Democrats have of winning the Presidency in 2020 would be if they nominated someone like Joe Biden. White male, so he wouldn't scare the Rust Belt states the Democrats need to win, plus he's a pugnacious and blunt straight talker, which appeals to the salt of the earth types on Hillbilly Mountain. I doubt it will happen, though, because the far left wing is being really loud and hysterical right now.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3506
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2018, 03:40:37 PM »
Up on Hillbilly Mountain, they aren't happy with a lot of economic stuff going on right now with Trump, after things had started off relatively well. However, they are being presented with people like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who want a state takeover of the economy (in their view) and that scares them, so they stick with Trump.

The only chance the Democrats have of winning the Presidency in 2020 would be if they nominated someone like Joe Biden. White male, so he wouldn't scare the Rust Belt states the Democrats need to win, plus he's a pugnacious and blunt straight talker, which appeals to the salt of the earth types on Hillbilly Mountain. I doubt it will happen, though, because the far left wing is being really loud and hysterical right now.

He's too old. But maybe that's reassuring to rural, conservative, voters?

Even Clinton, poor candidate choice that she was, would've won if she had paid more attention to a few states. It's not like Trump won by a landslide.

nick663

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Location: midwest
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2018, 04:09:10 PM »
I didn't vote for him but tried to give him a chance when he took office as I saw positives in some of the things in his platform (especially infrastructure).  He has instead focused on things I disagreed with, acted like a child, and increased the deficit massively.  I see very little positive coming out of his presidency and I look forward to him leaving office.

I find it interesting that a few have mentioned they have been happy with his accomplishments while in office?  I feel like one of the benefits of having him in office (vs someone like Pence) is that he's a terrible politician and can't get people to coalesce behind an issue.  He has passed one piece of notable legislation (tax cuts) while having single party control of all 3 branches of government...
I think I match the majority of people in being fiscally conservative and socially liberal and it seems there's never anyone in either mainstream party that represents that model.  It doesn't seem to be the type of model that gets people fired up.  And I think that's too bad.

Probably because that model doesn't really exist. Fiscal conservatism entails a smaller government which in turn means less protections against discrimination, the right to receive healthcare and basic food if you cannot afford it and workers comp, etc. Fiscal conservatives often agree with the scientific consensus on climate change and that something needs to be done about it. But rolling back environmental regulations contradicts fiscal conservatism.

Then you have tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the wealthy and corporations. This brings in less revenue for the government who in turn cut social programs to make up for this short fall.

It sounds great in theory, it really does. But it's not practical. You simply cannot have it both ways.
Yeah, I always find the "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" people to be making an argument for having your cake and eating it too.  I can see positives on both sides of the fence but at the end of the day you can't fund large social programs without revenue.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3506
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2018, 04:18:37 PM »
If you're not interested in a discussion I understand, but could you at least provide a few examples of the DNC corruption you're referring to? I think that would be staying on topic and I'm sure someone else would be willing to carry on the discussion if you can get it started.

The DNC leadership was actively working against Sanders, or at least looking for ways to do so.

Quote from: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/us/politics/dnc-emails-sanders-clinton.html
“It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God,” wrote Brad Marshall, the chief financial officer of the committee. “He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps.”

Brazile fed debate questions to Clinton's staff and not to Sanders' staff.

The Clinton team took over DNC fundraising a year before the Democrat nomination was made, giving them veto power over certain positions with the DNC. The Clinton team ran the DNC. This only happened previously to current-Presidents (or current-VPs, in Gore's case) and not to someone still in the primary race.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/24/here-are-the-latest-most-damaging-things-in-the-dncs-leaked-emails/?noredirect=on

It's not corruption per se but it does indicate a certain...lack of honesty (not quite the word I'm looking for but it'll do).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 04:20:28 PM by bacchi »

beer-man

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2018, 05:00:38 PM »
I was never pro-trump but I was so incredibly disappointed that Hillary was the best candidate the democrats could come up with


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

meghan88

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 669
  • Location: Ontario
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2018, 05:02:13 PM »

I think I match the majority of people in being fiscally conservative and socially liberal and it seems there's never anyone in either mainstream party that represents that model.  It doesn't seem to be the type of model that gets people fired up.  And I think that's too bad.

Probably because that model doesn't really exist. Fiscal conservatism entails a smaller government which in turn means less protections against discrimination, the right to receive healthcare and basic food if you cannot afford it and workers comp, etc. Fiscal conservatives often agree with the scientific consensus on climate change and that something needs to be done about it. But rolling back environmental regulations contradicts fiscal conservatism.

Then you have tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the wealthy and corporations. This brings in less revenue for the government who in turn cut social programs to make up for this short fall.

It sounds great in theory, it really does. But it's not practical. You simply cannot have it both ways.
Yeah, I always find the "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" people to be making an argument for having your cake and eating it too.  I can see positives on both sides of the fence but at the end of the day you can't fund large social programs without revenue.

There's a whole spectrum of socially liberal issues, not all of which cost $.  By way of example, a former PM of Canada once said:  "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation".  A lack of interference in peoples' private lives should actually save $, unless and until certain accommodations (special bathrooms, funded sex changes) are decreed as basic human rights.  Yes, it's complicated, but not impossible.

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2018, 05:09:15 PM »
I like Trump on border security and immigration,

Why? How could you??

When Trump was running, I initially thought he might be more moderate than Cruz.  He seemed affable, but like most people who ever lived in the NY Metro area since the 80s, I knew he was a sleaze, and could not believe that he would go as far as he did. But he did, and has turned out to be beyond amoral: evil, even. I didn't care much for Hillary, but Trump is unacceptable. 

I disagree, I think you can be socially liberal but fiscally conservative.  I look for value in government. I don't want waste. I don't mind paying tax dollars as long as the money is being well spent and effective.  I do believe in responsibility and that people should be given incentives to work hard if they are able, and I'm not against deterrents either IF the deterrents are not unusually cruel. But all policy needs to be decided based on studies of what works.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2018, 05:56:07 PM »
I think when a lot of right-leaning people say they're socially liberal they mean they're socially libertarian.

It doesn't cost much money to have the government not meddle in abortion, allow gay rights/marriage, legalize pot, etc etc.  Some of those SAVE big money (what could we save if drugs were decriminalized and we could spend a ton less on enforcement????)

There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2018, 06:35:03 PM »
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

This is what I consider myself but Trump is miles away from this. I don't think that people with my world view would support Trump. Trump doesn't to me seem to be at all economically sound. I think he is terrible from an economic perspective.

I don't really understand why people still support Trump. I find it fascinating but i can't see a rational reason to support him. To be fair I think Hillary was a pretty poor candidate. She was female which is good and smart but she comes across as completely immoral. Trump is no better though.

I'd vote for Sanders and his socialism ahead of either Trump or Hillary. It's pretty bad choice of people to head up a government though.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 06:36:38 PM by steveo »

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2018, 06:53:59 PM »
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

This is what I consider myself but Trump is miles away from this. I don't think that people with my world view would support Trump. Trump doesn't to me seem to be at all economically sound. I think he is terrible from an economic perspective.

I don't think that's what Trump is, necessarily.  I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/25/kevin-oleary-says-trump-has-100-percent-chance-of-getting-reelected.html

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2018, 08:44:36 PM »
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

This is what I consider myself but Trump is miles away from this. I don't think that people with my world view would support Trump. Trump doesn't to me seem to be at all economically sound. I think he is terrible from an economic perspective.

I wouldn't say that, but I think his individual tax cuts should have leaned more toward helping people in the lower income brackets, and he shouldn't have tried to dismantle the ACA.  But overall economically, just be thankful it's not Bernie Sanders in there!

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2018, 08:48:54 PM »
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

This is what I consider myself but Trump is miles away from this. I don't think that people with my world view would support Trump. Trump doesn't to me seem to be at all economically sound. I think he is terrible from an economic perspective.

I wouldn't say that, but I think his individual tax cuts should have leaned more toward helping people in the lower income brackets, and he shouldn't have tried to dismantle the ACA.  But overall economically, just be thankful it's not Bernie Sanders in there!

Trump has put in tariffs. That is pretty bad. I'm not sure that Sanders would be worse than that.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2018, 08:50:42 PM »
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

This is what I consider myself but Trump is miles away from this. I don't think that people with my world view would support Trump. Trump doesn't to me seem to be at all economically sound. I think he is terrible from an economic perspective.

I don't think that's what Trump is, necessarily.  I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/25/kevin-oleary-says-trump-has-100-percent-chance-of-getting-reelected.html

This is interesting. At the same time there aren't any really facts there and it sounds like a Trump supporter giving a reason to support Trump. At least that is a positive reason though.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2018, 07:03:59 AM »
I think when a lot of right-leaning people say they're socially liberal they mean they're socially libertarian.

It doesn't cost much money to have the government not meddle in abortion, allow gay rights/marriage, legalize pot, etc etc.  Some of those SAVE big money (what could we save if drugs were decriminalized and we could spend a ton less on enforcement????)

There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

Yep you'll save money. Of course businesses will be free to discriminate at will. They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change. Of course no one benefits from that. That's fine if that's what you want and what you stand for. But just don't claim you are socially liberal as well.

davisgang90

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
  • Location: Roanoke, VA
    • Photography by Rich Davis

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2018, 08:18:22 AM »
I think when a lot of right-leaning people say they're socially liberal they mean they're socially libertarian.

It doesn't cost much money to have the government not meddle in abortion, allow gay rights/marriage, legalize pot, etc etc.  Some of those SAVE big money (what could we save if drugs were decriminalized and we could spend a ton less on enforcement????)

There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

Yep you'll save money. Of course businesses will be free to discriminate at will. They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change. Of course no one benefits from that. That's fine if that's what you want and what you stand for. But just don't claim you are socially liberal as well.

Because of course if someone believes the government should stay out of one issue they should stay out of every issue, right?  Thanks for the straw man.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1303
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2018, 08:21:49 AM »
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

This is what I consider myself but Trump is miles away from this. I don't think that people with my world view would support Trump. Trump doesn't to me seem to be at all economically sound. I think he is terrible from an economic perspective.

I don't think that's what Trump is, necessarily.  I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/25/kevin-oleary-says-trump-has-100-percent-chance-of-getting-reelected.html

This is interesting. At the same time there aren't any really facts there and it sounds like a Trump supporter giving a reason to support Trump. At least that is a positive reason though.

Kevin O'leary's a bit like a mini-Trump himself.  (Shark Tank is a variant on the Apprentice, yes?)    He's probably just following Scott Adams' lead.   If he's right, he looks like a genius.   If he's wrong, he continues to be a relative unknown.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2018, 08:31:50 AM »
I think when a lot of right-leaning people say they're socially liberal they mean they're socially libertarian.

It doesn't cost much money to have the government not meddle in abortion, allow gay rights/marriage, legalize pot, etc etc.  Some of those SAVE big money (what could we save if drugs were decriminalized and we could spend a ton less on enforcement????)

There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

Yep you'll save money. Of course businesses will be free to discriminate at will. They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change. Of course no one benefits from that. That's fine if that's what you want and what you stand for. But just don't claim you are socially liberal as well.

Because of course if someone believes the government should stay out of one issue they should stay out of every issue, right?  Thanks for the straw man.

So the government should step in and regulate pollution and toxins? Because according to you rolling back these regulations is positive.

Quote
I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3506
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2018, 09:10:22 AM »
Yep you'll save money. Of course businesses will be free to discriminate at will. They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change. Of course no one benefits from that. That's fine if that's what you want and what you stand for. But just don't claim you are socially liberal as well.

Because of course if someone believes the government should stay out of one issue they should stay out of every issue, right?  Thanks for the straw man.

So the government should step in and regulate pollution and toxins? Because according to you rolling back these regulations is positive.

Quote
I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.

I assume Chris22 meant only some business and envionmental regulations.

However, in the video posted, O'Leary only mentions one regulation:

Quote from: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/25/kevin-oleary-says-trump-has-100-percent-chance-of-getting-reelected.html
He pointed to a restaurant he wanted to open in Aspen. "The frosted glass on the window had to be so many yards from the toilet, and the window had to open so many inches. It was complete chaos in the regulatory environment."

Does anyone (Chris22?) know which federal regulation that was and when Trump voided it? Because local cities and counties, and not the feds, decide on building codes.

(For the record, the window has to open so many inches because it's designated an egress window. That doesn't seem that onerous.)

From the numbers MDM posted last week (2 weeks ago?), Trump was no better at getting rid of regulations than Obama.