Author Topic: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?  (Read 16532 times)

Miss Piggy

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Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« on: May 18, 2016, 02:26:10 PM »
Seriously, why do you say "the wife..." rather than "my wife..." so often?  "The husband..." just isn't a phrase used by anyone, ever. I don't get it.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 02:34:07 PM »
Saying "the wife" is my lighthearted way of addressing my relationship with her...that's it. The emphasis here is "lighthearted." In real life, I hardly take ANYTHING seriously (to my detriment at times), so saying something like "the wife" just goes along with my silly demeanor. That sometimes shows in my writing on internet forums as well.

pdxbator

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 02:41:39 PM »
Actually my husband uses 'the husband' occasionally. :) we don't take things seriously though.

HPstache

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 02:48:06 PM »
According to this long thread, the majority of women don't mind it and many like it...

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/he-called-her-the-wife-offensive/

Also, some in the thread do say that they refer to their husbands as "the husband"
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 02:50:51 PM by v8rx7guy »

Kris

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 02:55:17 PM »
I have heard women say "the boyfriend," "the husband," etc.  I have done it myself. Though not with my current husband, because it does sound dismissive, to my ears.  Just not sexist.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 03:06:54 PM »
I use "the husband" all the time... And the husband uses "the wife" often too.

Just because you personally don't use a specific phrasing doesn't mean no one else anywhere else ever has used it. That is rather odd to think your particular regional dialect or colloquial speech is the only one used across the entire country/world.


beltim

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2016, 03:30:31 PM »
"the wife" occurs 4100 times on these boards according to Google
"the husband" occurs 1340 times on these boards according to Google

"my wife" occurs 11800 times
"my husband" occurs 8350 times

" DW " occurs 1560
" DH " occurs 5330

I think these patterns are interesting. 

Miss Piggy

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 03:34:09 PM »
I use "the husband" all the time... And the husband uses "the wife" often too.

Just because you personally don't use a specific phrasing doesn't mean no one else anywhere else ever has used it. That is rather odd to think your particular regional dialect or colloquial speech is the only one used across the entire country/world.

Interesting. I just don't recall seeing/reading/hearing "the husband..."

But as beltim has pointed out, it has apparently been used many times, albeit more rarely than "the wife."

I don't necessarily find either phrase offensive. Just different. Hence the question.

woopwoop

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2016, 03:45:49 PM »
" DW " occurs 1560
" DH " occurs 5330
I'd never heard these terms before I visited parenting blogs, which seem to be mostly populated by women.

I'll use "the husband" occasionally but it's just not as common a phrase and so there's better chance of miscommunication. I've definitely heard the phrase "the wife" used more often irl, like when people will say stuff like "I have to check with the wife."  My husband usually says he has to check with "the boss" though ;)

solon

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2016, 03:49:36 PM »
"the wife" occurs 4100 times on these boards according to Google
"the husband" occurs 1340 times on these boards according to Google

"my wife" occurs 11800 times
"my husband" occurs 8350 times

" DW " occurs 1560
" DH " occurs 5330

I think these patterns are interesting.

So men will say "the wife" or "my wife", but not "DW".
Women will say "DH", but not "the husband" or "my husband".
Very curious. I wonder why that is.

Chris22

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2016, 04:16:16 PM »
Wife is a 1-syllable word that rolls off the tongue easily.  Husband is 2-syllable and not nearly as easy to say.  My wife has a 2-syllable name, and I have a 1-syllable name.  It's easier for me to call her "my wife" and her to call me "Chris".

libertarian4321

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2016, 04:30:07 PM »
Seriously, why do you say "the wife..." rather than "my wife..." so often?  "The husband..." just isn't a phrase used by anyone, ever. I don't get it.

Because people find it less offensive than "the little woman" or "the ol' ball and chain?"

Paul der Krake

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2016, 04:32:05 PM »
Saying "my wife" is ambiguous- there could be more than one.


Bracken_Joy

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2016, 04:37:49 PM »
I say "the hubby" fairly often IRL. On the forums, I always do DH. Husband is hard to type and hard to say, IMO. All the letters are far apart, whereas "wife" occupies the same region of the keyboard pretty nicely.

Interesting though, because I think my husband always says "my wife" rather than "the wife". I don't think he's ever used that phrase, at least not while I'm there. Never thought about that.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2016, 04:39:50 PM »
I use it because it's fun to say, and it's a way of giving her a proper title. The Chief Wife.

Telecaster

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 05:02:46 PM »
I typically refer to the wife as She Who Must be Obeyed.   

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 05:18:17 PM »
I typically refer to the wife as She Who Must be Obeyed.

That one bothers me WAY more than saying "the wife", I'll be honest. It just feeds into the "incompetent man-boy" schtick so thoroughly.

solon

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 05:20:03 PM »
I typically refer to the wife as She Who Must be Obeyed.

That one bothers me WAY more than saying "the wife", I'll be honest. It just feeds into the "incompetent man-boy" schtick so thoroughly.

You're 27. My guess is Telecaster is 45. Generational differences are also fascinating.

wenchsenior

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2016, 05:46:18 PM »
" DW " occurs 1560
" DH " occurs 5330
I'd never heard these terms before I visited parenting blogs, which seem to be mostly populated by women.

I'll use "the husband" occasionally but it's just not as common a phrase and so there's better chance of miscommunication. I've definitely heard the phrase "the wife" used more often irl, like when people will say stuff like "I have to check with the wife."  My husband usually says he has to check with "the boss" though ;)

Same. He refers to me as "The Boss" a lot to others. When my husband is addressing me in the first person, he often uses "Mate" (not in the buddy-British sense, but in the "my-life-partnered-ever-pair-bonded" animal sense (we're biologists), "Wee One" (because I'm a human twig), or in a humorous dramatic tone, "WIFE!" I find it charming. We also call each other, "Hey...babe?..." when we want to get the others' attention. Or we just use our names. Weirdly, I don't have as many nicknames for him. I think it's because he's the more playful one.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 05:47:18 PM »
I'm 65 and not fond of "the wife"  It makes her sounds like a replaceable part, like the table, the car, the sofa.

She who must be obeyed tends to sound sarcastic, or remind me of the book by H. Rider Haggard.

I typically refer to the wife as She Who Must be Obeyed.

That one bothers me WAY more than saying "the wife", I'll be honest. It just feeds into the "incompetent man-boy" schtick so thoroughly.

You're 27. My guess is Telecaster is 45. Generational differences are also fascinating.

forummm

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 06:22:52 PM »
Sometimes I say "the kid" or "the baby" talking about my son. I don't think that has any underlying gender stereotypes going with it.

HappierAtHome

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2016, 06:40:56 PM »
I refer to "the BFF" (my best friend), "the MIL" (mother in law), and I used to refer to my partner as "the BF" (boyfriend). Now he's a husband rather than boyfriend, on this forum I tend to refer to him as Mr H, or Mr Happier, possibly because it's more personal / fun than "the husband" or DH.

I honestly don't think it means anything.

seathink

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2016, 06:54:06 PM »
Is it like how us Californians call the 5, "the 5", while the rest of the country doesn't? Because it's soo important/vital to our well-being?

As an aside, my boyfriend and I both use my.

HPstache

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2016, 07:01:52 PM »
Is it like how us Californians call the 5, "the 5", while the rest of the country doesn't? Because it's soo important/vital to our well-being?

As an aside, my boyfriend and I both use my.

Just as an FYI we call it the 5 in NW washington too

wenchsenior

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2016, 07:09:18 PM »
I'm 65 and not fond of "the wife"  It makes her sounds like a replaceable part, like the table, the car, the sofa.

She who must be obeyed tends to sound sarcastic, or remind me of the book by H. Rider Haggard.


Interesting. My husband noted that he feels strange saying "My wife" versus "The wife" because he feels it sounds like he's asserting ownership over me. He also mentioned that some of his Irish friends (trad. music group) use  "Himself"or "Herself". As in, "I'll check with Herself when she gets home".

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2016, 07:10:38 PM »
Is it like how us Californians call the 5, "the 5", while the rest of the country doesn't? Because it's soo important/vital to our well-being?

As an aside, my boyfriend and I both use my.

Just as an FYI we call it the 5 in NW washington too

We say I-5 in Oregon, generally. I've only met a couple exceptions.

People who have moved to Portland and didn't grow up here don't count for this- I don't have a good sample on that.

woopwoop

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2016, 07:16:22 PM »
or in a humorous dramatic tone, "WIFE!"
This happens just about every day when one of us arrives home.
"WIFE!"
"HUSBAND!"
"I REQUIRE CUDDLES!"

Nice to see that we're not the only ones.

Trudie

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2016, 07:44:09 PM »
I refer to him as my best husband.  Or favorite husband of all my husbands.  The others being, of course and in no particular order, George Clooney, Hugh Jackman and various and sundry famous musicians.

ulrichw

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 09:02:48 PM »
Is it like how us Californians call the 5, "the 5", [...]

FWIW that's a Southern Californian "standard."

Here in the Bay Area, Freeway numbers are treated like proper names - for example: "Did you take 101 or 280 to the airport?".

And I also would generally use "my wife", or my wife's first name when talking about her with another party.

YK-Phil

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2016, 09:08:40 PM »
I'm 65 and not fond of "the wife"  It makes her sounds like a replaceable part, like the table, the car, the sofa.

She who must be obeyed tends to sound sarcastic, or remind me of the book by H. Rider Haggard.


Interesting. My husband noted that he feels strange saying "My wife" versus "The wife" because he feels it sounds like he's asserting ownership over me. He also mentioned that some of his Irish friends (trad. music group) use  "Himself"or "Herself". As in, "I'll check with Herself when she gets home".

Most of my close friends are French, and I too don't like saying "ma femme", which translates to "my wife" but also "my woman", which implies some kind of property relationship.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2016, 09:09:17 PM »

Just as an FYI we call it the 5 in NW washington too

Only people in Washington that moved here from Cali

Jeremy E.

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2016, 09:34:22 PM »
My 2 cents,
I've always gotten annoyed by "DH" "MIL" etc. half the time I have to look them up and it's rather annoying. Would much prefer the husband, mother in law, etc. Locally, I often here people refer to their spouses as "old man" to refer to husband or "old lady" to refer to wife, both of which sound a lot less delicate than the rest of the options. Sometimes "old man" refers to someones dad as well, so it can be confusing. I'm okay with "the wife" or "the husband". I also dislike "my partner" because that can mean so many things.

Lastly, in Eastern Washington/Idaho, it's called "I-5", but we use it much less, so our term for it is probably less valuable.

FIPurpose

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2016, 10:10:35 PM »
I've only heard it called I-5. Not a Portlander, but I live in "The Couve" so I frequent it.

Little Nell

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2016, 10:21:07 PM »
Is it like how us Californians call the 5, "the 5", while the rest of the country doesn't? Because it's soo important/vital to our well-being?

As an aside, my boyfriend and I both use my.

Just as an FYI we call it the 5 in NW washington too

Another Oregonian. We call it I-5.

"She Who Must Be Obeyed" comes from John Mortimer's Rumpole of the Bailey series.
And it is somewhat hostile.

gaja

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2016, 11:37:52 PM »
Because English is my second language, and "the wife" is grammatically correct in my first. In fact, the phrase "my wife" would be "the wife mine" (kona mi) in my first language.

Cressida

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2016, 12:52:57 AM »

Just as an FYI we call it the 5 in NW washington too

Only people in Washington that moved here from Cali

Yeah. I've lived in Seattle all my life and have never heard anyone call it anything other than I-5.

SnackDog

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2016, 02:43:02 AM »
It is German for woman, as in, I have to get my bowling night approved by The Woman. Or, The Woman just spent another small fortune on shoes and handbags.

ender

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2016, 05:58:18 AM »
I have the exact same sentiment as 'your'(?!;)) husband. I feel like 'my wife' signifies ownership which I feel uncomfortable with.

Well it IS signifying ownership of your part in that relationship.

It is your wife, not a random wife. Just like you are her husband, not random husband.

I guess I've never seen it as anything more than a simple clarification to say "my wife" that is any different than saying "my parents" or "my neighbor" or "my friend." I don't feel I am asserting any ownership in those contexts and am not sure why that would be so specifically when referring to a spouse.

Rubic

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2016, 07:36:37 AM »
Near the northern terminus of the Natchez Trace Parkway is a marker for Sheboss, an inn run by a widow who was married to her second husband, a Chickasaw who spoke little English.  According to legend, when travelers approached with questions about accommodations he would only point to his wife and say, "She boss."

http://www.natcheztracetravel.com/natchez-trace-tennessee/columbia-centerville-tn/88-sheboss-stand.html

GuitarStv

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2016, 08:07:37 AM »
I don't use 'the wife' . . . simply because it's usually awkward and confusing when used:

"The wife told me to get some milk at the store"

^ The wife of whom?  If we're talking about your wife, why not use the more correct 'My wife', or the name of your wife?

Trudie

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2016, 09:27:04 AM »
I don't mind "my" as a modifier.  "The" bugs me more because it is impersonal and and smacks of a property relationship.

But, back to "my".... an older friend of mine always referred to her husband as "my Greg" and if you were in her family you were "our Annie" or "my Ross".  She's a staunch feminist too.  I always liked it, actually.  It sort of conveyed that "you are one of us" or "we choose you."  The use of "my" with the proper name seemed very intimate and familial.

I've also noticed a tendency in some cultures that the use of "our so-and-so" is used to imply a feeling a family bonding, even among groups of friends.  I like it.

FIPurpose

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2016, 09:44:12 AM »
I think there is a feeling that using "my" too often in a conversation even if it is about a spouse can create a tone of the story being about yourself or your things. Keeping things impersonal helps keep focus on the story itself, and allows the speaker to feel comfortable telling the story without feeling like he's just talking about himself/herself overly much.

It's kind of difficult to think of exactly why for every situation. Any phrase can only be properly examined in its own context. I believe most in this thread already understand that we are not talking about "She is the wife of Mr.Cooper.", but I think the OP has an issue with the context that can be accompanied by "the wife" rather than the phrase itself.

Even in writing, it's not easy to get out the full meaning. "Sorry guys, I got to get back to the wife". This could be said seriously or sarcastically, but would still depend on your knowledge of their relationship, how they typically talk, and how they say it. I think it would be interesting to dive deeper into it, but I'm not sure what you could actually conclude from something so opaque.

ketchup

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2016, 09:47:07 AM »
I'm not married, but I'll refer to her by either her name or "my girlfriend."  I've never given it much thought.  Later it will probably turn into "my wife."

But once my mother introduced my girlfriend to a relative of mine with "and this is [ketchup]'s friend [GF's name]"  Just "friend."  My girlfriend got upset about that, but my mom didn't mean anything by it and is just weird like that apparently.  I found it confusing/unclear at best.

Thinking about it more, I feel like "the" is used more (at least in my social circles) as a jokey sarcastic tone.  Like if I'm carrying something bulky around and someone says to my GF: "Looks like you put the boyfriend to work!"

forummm

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2016, 09:54:17 AM »
I'm 65 and not fond of "the wife"  It makes her sounds like a replaceable part, like the table, the car, the sofa.

She who must be obeyed tends to sound sarcastic, or remind me of the book by H. Rider Haggard.


Interesting. My husband noted that he feels strange saying "My wife" versus "The wife" because he feels it sounds like he's asserting ownership over me. He also mentioned that some of his Irish friends (trad. music group) use  "Himself"or "Herself". As in, "I'll check with Herself when she gets home".
I have the exact same sentiment as 'your'(?!;)) husband. I feel like 'my wife' signifies ownership which I feel uncomfortable with.
but how else would you describe your relationship to a person without using "my" ? As in my brother, my sister, my family.

Yeah, or "my master", in which the ownership goes the other direction.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2016, 09:59:55 AM »
Is it like how us Californians call the 5, "the 5", [...]

FWIW that's a Southern Californian "standard."

Here in the Bay Area, Freeway numbers are treated like proper names - for example: "Did you take 101 or 280 to the airport?".

And I also would generally use "my wife", or my wife's first name when talking about her with another party.
yep all the freeways here in SoCal get a "the" in front of them unlike up north.  PCH (Pacific coat highway/highway 1) for some reason is just PCH with no the. "Take the 405 to PCH".

A few years ago I was taking part in a bar quiz game, and one of the questions was asking the name of the highway that runs from Cali through Washington.  (I was pretty excited there was a question I could actually answer for my team, as opposed to some inane celebrity or technical science trivia.)  The announcer said he could tell who was from California, as we all dutifully wrote down "the 5" rather than "I-5".

FIREdancer

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2016, 10:06:12 AM »
I'm finding this discussion fascinating, but I'm particularly fascinated by linguistics and language in general.

What I find most interesting is how people are finding each word to be offensive/negative or not for different reasons.  For example, some here have said that "the" seems more impersonal and offensive and "my" is more appropriate for denoting the relationship between particular people.  While others find "my" to be offensive as if it denotes ownership.  Words are so arbitrary, but all of our different cultures and experiences completely shape how we think of words.  I also find it interesting that one person commented that they didn't think it really means anything...which is another whole issue--are words just arbitrary things that can have different meanings/contexts/intentions, or are they more powerful regardless of the intention of the speaker?

Also some have noted the ambiguity of using "the" instead of "my," and not knowing whose husband or wife it is, but to me the context of the conversation would indicate the relationship and which particular people to which you are referring, so I don't thing using "my" is necessary for that.  But once again, this also depends on your dialect and first language, as many here have noted the different grammars of other languages can influence this understanding of relationships.

I personally think that using "the" instead of "my" can signify importance.  When you introduce anything and add "the" to the beginning, it seems to give that person or thing more importance and respect in a way.  For example, in my family we often refer to my mom as "the momma," which we use jokingly, but also as a show of respect and love because she is the one and only.

charis

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2016, 10:07:52 AM »
My husband will refer to me as "the boss" sometimes when he wants to run a plan or idea past me before committing, as in "let me check with the boss."  But he will say "my wife" or my name when saying something about me. 

I think the former is a light-hearted exaggeration mode of conversation meant to deflect or put off decision making to another time.   

When I hear "the wife" instead of "my wife," it generally sounds much less personal and affectionate.  But obviously that can depend on the speaker and the manner in which it is used.

Dollar Slice

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2016, 10:11:55 AM »
I guess I've never seen it as anything more than a simple clarification to say "my wife" that is any different than saying "my parents" or "my neighbor" or "my friend." I don't feel I am asserting any ownership in those contexts

I have a friend who will protest if I refer to someone as "my friend so-and-so" if he also knows the person. "What do you mean, YOUR friend?" I guess he thinks I should include him by saying "our friend." I can't always keep straight which of my friends have met each other, so this gets pretty annoying :-)  I think he's the only person I've ever known who got touchy about the my parents/neighbor/friend/wife/etc. phrasing.

solon

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2016, 10:23:10 AM »
My husband will refer to me as "the boss" sometimes when he wants to run a plan or idea past me before committing, as in "let me check with the boss."  But he will say "my wife" or my name when saying something about me. 

I think the former is a light-hearted exaggeration mode of conversation meant to deflect or put off decision making to another time.   

When I hear "the wife" instead of "my wife," it generally sounds much less personal and affectionate.  But obviously that can depend on the speaker and the manner in which it is used.

I will occasionally refer to my wife as "the boss", but it's not because I'm trying to put off a decision. It's because this is a big decision that affects her, and I want her input. Your husband might be doing something similar, which should make you feel pretty good.

charis

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Re: Guys, why do so many of you say "the wife..."?
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2016, 11:20:12 AM »
My husband will refer to me as "the boss" sometimes when he wants to run a plan or idea past me before committing, as in "let me check with the boss."  But he will say "my wife" or my name when saying something about me. 

I think the former is a light-hearted exaggeration mode of conversation meant to deflect or put off decision making to another time.   

When I hear "the wife" instead of "my wife," it generally sounds much less personal and affectionate.  But obviously that can depend on the speaker and the manner in which it is used.

I will occasionally refer to my wife as "the boss", but it's not because I'm trying to put off a decision. It's because this is a big decision that affects her, and I want her input. Your husband might be doing something similar, which should make you feel pretty good.

You misinterpreted my meaning.  He says it to put off making the decision until after he has had time to consult with me.   And although I thank you for the advice that I, an internet stranger, should "feel pretty good" about it,  I expect that, as his partner, he will consult with me about big decisions, as he expects of me.

Also, that's not why he refers to me as "the boss" because obviously he could say, "my wife" (or my name).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 11:22:27 AM by jezebel »

 

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