Author Topic: good news  (Read 2048 times)


rocketpj

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Re: good news
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2019, 04:45:39 PM »
About damn time.

Cue many many people screaming about how it is mean for them to do their Constitutional duty.

Glenstache

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Re: good news
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2019, 09:19:51 AM »
I just read the released transcript. It bothered me that the transcript has a misuse of their/they're. Beyond that it was embarrassing to have that word salad coming out if the president's mouth... Oh and the request to investigate Biden. FFS.

Barbaebigode

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Re: good news
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2019, 09:59:55 AM »
In saner times the revelation that a sitting president asked another one to investigate his political adversaries would be scandalous.

In 2019 is "bUt ThErE's No QuId PrO qUo!".

2Birds1Stone

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Re: good news
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2019, 12:55:03 PM »
Why is this good news?

'Murica!

Fireball

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Re: good news
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2019, 01:23:31 PM »
In saner times the revelation that a sitting president asked another one to investigate his political adversaries would be scandalous.

In 2019 is "bUt ThErE's No QuId PrO qUo!".

Crazy times, indeed. Supposedly, the whistleblower complaint has more information about Ukraine and *other* issues as well. Doubt we'll ever see it.

Johnez

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Re: good news
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2019, 09:50:36 PM »
Curious. Trump's in trouble for this of all things.... Biden's quid pro quo deal is what got Trump impeached. Lol! Biden's on video admitting he personally withheld money unless they fired the prosecutor investigating his son. I'm just beside myself the Democrats haven't turned on him, it stinks.

Glenstache

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Re: good news
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2019, 10:52:20 PM »
This is incorrect. Biden (along with many allies) were pushing to fire the prosecutor because he *wasn't* investigating corruption. There is no scandal on the part of Joe Biden. It seems a but odd that Hunter Biden was in the board of the gas company, and it is pretty likely he was hired in order to try and curry favor. However, the actual record dies not support and preferential treatment from the VP.

The narrative that Biden has something to hide is invented and has taken on a life of its own.

former player

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Re: good news
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2019, 03:42:03 AM »
Curious. Trump's in trouble for this of all things.... Biden's quid pro quo deal is what got Trump impeached. Lol! Biden's on video admitting he personally withheld money unless they fired the prosecutor investigating his son. I'm just beside myself the Democrats haven't turned on him, it stinks.
May I ask what sources of news you consume?  This view of the facts on Biden is not turning up on any of the ones I follow.

2Cent

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Re: good news
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2019, 04:22:03 AM »
A Narcissist's Prayer

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did...
They deserved it.

Johnez

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Re: good news
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2019, 05:56:05 AM »

Many including NPR. Forums may have influenced my views, however I'd prefer not to name those.
Curious. Trump's in trouble for this of all things.... Biden's quid pro quo deal is what got Trump impeached. Lol! Biden's on video admitting he personally withheld money unless they fired the prosecutor investigating his son. I'm just beside myself the Democrats haven't turned on him, it stinks.
May I ask what sources of news you consume?  This view of the facts on Biden is not turning up on any of the ones I follow.

Many, including NPR where I got to hear testimony yesterday from acting DNI. I visit many forums I'd rather not share (not politically centered forums).

What facts don't line up?

Biden withheld funds?
Biden pressuring Ukraine to fire prosecutor?
That prosecutor was investigating the company Biden's son was on the board of?

All of these are plain facts in the mainstream news right now. I'm highly skeptical that given the involvement of his son that there was only pure motive. Even if it was a pure motive, doesn't that raise your eyebrows a bit?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 06:12:31 AM by Johnez »

MonkeyJenga

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Re: good news
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2019, 06:16:57 AM »
If you trust NPR, this is a recent overview from them: https://www.npr.org/2019/09/24/763502822/what-were-the-bidens-doing-in-ukraine-5-questions-answered

"Also, the Obama administration actually supported investigations into corruption. This included looking into the gas company because the owner, Mykola Zlochevsky, was close to the ousted president and they had both fled the country before the Bidens became regular visitors.

3. Is there any sign of wrongdoing by either Joe Biden or his son Hunter Biden?

This is what Trump and his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, are suggesting. But they have not provided evidence of illegal actions. Multiple fact checks have called Trump's accusations of corruption by the Bidens misleading.

Joe Biden has actually boasted about his work in Ukraine as a spokesperson for the White House and the West generally. He called for the ouster of the top Ukrainian prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, for what was widely seen as his failure to investigate corruption."

So the administration was in favor of the gas company being investigated for corruption, and the prosecutor got fired because he was not investigating.

former player

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Re: good news
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2019, 06:26:48 AM »

Many including NPR. Forums may have influenced my views, however I'd prefer not to name those.
Curious. Trump's in trouble for this of all things.... Biden's quid pro quo deal is what got Trump impeached. Lol! Biden's on video admitting he personally withheld money unless they fired the prosecutor investigating his son. I'm just beside myself the Democrats haven't turned on him, it stinks.
May I ask what sources of news you consume?  This view of the facts on Biden is not turning up on any of the ones I follow.

Many, including NPR where I got to hear testimony yesterday from acting DNI. I visit many forums I'd rather not share (not politically centered forums).

What facts don't line up?

Biden withheld funds?
Biden pressuring Ukraine to fire prosecutor?
That prosecutor was investigating the company Biden's son was on the board of?

All of these are plain facts in the mainstream news right now. I'm highly skeptical that given the involvement of his son that there was only pure motive. Even if it was a pure motive, doesn't that raise your eyebrows a bit?
The facts that don't line up were that this was a previous regime in Ukraine, with a previous prosecutor called Victor Shokin.  He was notorious for refusing to prosecute the people who shot pro-democracy demonstrators at the Maidan in 2014, for blocking corruption cases and for not dismissing employees who were guilty of accepting bribes.  One of the corruption cases Shokin refused to progress was against the firm which employed Hunter Biden.  Joe Biden, on behalf of the USA, along with the International Monetary Fund and the European Union, worked to have Shokin dismissed and replaced by a prosecutor who was not corrupt and who would investigate allegations of corruption, including against the firm that employed Hunter Biden.

It takes considerable elision of the facts, or either outright lies, to try to make a case that Joe Biden was guilty of any wrongdoing.  There is just no "there" there as far as Joe Biden is concerned.

Should Hunter Biden have agreed to be employed by a dodgy firm in Ukraine?  No, I think it was morally reprehensible money-grubbing on his part.  It doesn't seem to have been criminal, though, and there is no evidence of any kind that Joe Biden either benefitted personally from Hunter Biden's actions or facilitated them in any way.

Norioch

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Re: good news
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2019, 11:54:53 AM »
I'm beyond frustrated that Pelosi seems to be choosing to focus the impeachment only on the recent revelations regarding the Ukraine scandal, and to ignore all the other crimes Trump and his adminsitration have been openly committing for years. It's like Pelosi is just going through the motions so she can say "there, we impeached him, now stop bothering us about it" instead of actually taking it seriously.

former player

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Re: good news
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2019, 12:11:01 PM »
I'm beyond frustrated that Pelosi seems to be choosing to focus the impeachment only on the recent revelations regarding the Ukraine scandal, and to ignore all the other crimes Trump and his adminsitration have been openly committing for years. It's like Pelosi is just going through the motions so she can say "there, we impeached him, now stop bothering us about it" instead of actually taking it seriously.
The trouble is that if the impeachment includes everything else it brings with it the opportunity for Trump and his supporters to go back to all the old "Russia witch hunt" and "no collusion"  and "Hillary supporter in the FBI" and "it all happened when he was a private citizen" talking points and drown out the Ukraine issues.

Norioch

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Re: good news
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2019, 12:15:02 PM »
How about violations of the emoluments clause then? It's blatantly illegal and blatantly corrupt and easy to understand, and it has nothing to do with the Mueller report. How about ordering his adminstration to refuse to provide his tax returns to Congress, in violation of black-letter law?

GuitarStv

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Re: good news
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2019, 12:16:49 PM »
Does impeachment matter at all for Trump?  Is it going to change the opinions of any of his supporters?

Norioch

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Re: good news
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2019, 12:21:14 PM »
He almost certainly will not be convicted in the Senate and this will also almost certainly not change the opinion of any of his supporters, because nothing ever does. What it might do is generate some enthusiasm among Democrats. But to do that it has to be real and comprehensive. Which is why it's all the more frustrating that Pelosi wants to fast-track it and limit its scope. It's such a plainly stupid strategy and a wasted effort. I'm really baffled by what she's thinking.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: good news
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2019, 12:29:35 PM »
I guess time will tell, but I'm still in favor of the House starting a dedicated impeachment inquiry, and then holding a series of televised hearings touching on all of the allegations and wrongdoing of this administration. And it's not just Trump, we've had corruption, coverups, and criminal behavior from quite a number of executive branch officials. I agree there is probably no way to hold a successful trial in this Senate, so don't. Public hearings laying out all of the crimes will (1) expose the large amount of rot in this administration, because let's face it, as awful as Trump is, he couldn't have done it without the explicit help of a few key people as well as the silence/implicit help from large numbers of other people, (2) aid in another landslide election for Democrats and non-complicit Republicans and Independents, (3) largely prevent most further misdeeds by this administration, although admittedly without immediate removal there will still be problems and painful consequences for the nation and many vulnerable people, and (4) allow the NEXT Congress to begin the arduous task of rebuilding the executive branch, while handing over their impeachment inquiry findings to prosecutors to start charging these criminals.

Norioch

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Re: good news
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2019, 12:33:58 PM »
I guess time will tell, but I'm still in favor of the House starting a dedicated impeachment inquiry, and then holding a series of televised hearings touching on all of the allegations and wrongdoing of this administration. And it's not just Trump, we've had corruption, coverups, and criminal behavior from quite a number of executive branch officials. I agree there is probably no way to hold a successful trial in this Senate, so don't. Public hearings laying out all of the crimes will (1) expose the large amount of rot in this administration, because let's face it, as awful as Trump is, he couldn't have done it without the explicit help of a few key people as well as the silence/implicit help from large numbers of other people, (2) aid in another landslide election for Democrats and non-complicit Republicans and Independents, (3) largely prevent most further misdeeds by this administration, although admittedly without immediate removal there will still be problems and painful consequences for the nation and many vulnerable people, and (4) allow the NEXT Congress to begin the arduous task of rebuilding the executive branch, while handing over their impeachment inquiry findings to prosecutors to start charging these criminals.

I agree with all of this except the "landslide election for Democrats" prediction. That's way too optimistic. I think what you outlined above is the best strategy, but even with that best strategy, at this point I still expect Trump to win reelection. I really want to be proven wrong.

Davnasty

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Re: good news
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2019, 01:32:45 PM »
He almost certainly will not be convicted in the Senate and this will also almost certainly not change the opinion of any of his supporters, because nothing ever does. What it might do is generate some enthusiasm among Democrats. But to do that it has to be real and comprehensive. Which is why it's all the more frustrating that Pelosi wants to fast-track it and limit its scope. It's such a plainly stupid strategy and a wasted effort. I'm really baffled by what she's thinking.

I see potential pros and cons of limiting the scope of the inquiry, especially as it's presented to the public. Repeating issues that have already been in the news will look to some, particularly those who aren't paying close attention, like rehashing of matters which have already been resolved. Of course the reality is that those issues haven't been resolved, rather congress is refusing to act and then Republicans point to the lack of action as proof that the issue is resolved. But if someone believes that an issue is done with, bringing it up again looks desperate.

To be clear, I don't know the best way to handle the situation but I can say that anecdotally I know people who don't like Trump, but are also tired of hearing the same complaints against him over and over again. Regardless of how legitimate those complaints are, and as frustrating as it may be, people really do feel this way.

bacchi

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Re: good news
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2019, 01:35:44 PM »
The 538 staff in the Maguire live-chat seemed to think losing focus was the wrong way to handle things. We've been over emoluments and Russia and the Moscow Trump Tower and there wasn't anything there or the public didn't care.

Focusing on the cover-up is best because it shows that even Trump and his administration thinks something was possibly illegal. Even the DOJ memo on the whistleblower complaint argues that though it's not an "urgent concern" for the intel committee, it is credible enough to be investigated.

Norioch

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Re: good news
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2019, 01:37:33 PM »
We've been over emoluments and Russia and the Moscow Trump Tower and there wasn't anything there or the public didn't care.

There was, and still is, a ton there, and as a member of the voting public I care deeply.

wenchsenior

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Re: good news
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2019, 01:44:39 PM »
We've been over emoluments and Russia and the Moscow Trump Tower and there wasn't anything there or the public didn't care.

There was, and still is, a ton there, and as a member of the voting public I care deeply.

You might, but surveys throughout Trump's presidency show you to be in the minority. 

I am of the opinion that pursuing impeachment is likely to backfire on the Dems and 1) drive turnout of wavering GOP voters up; and 2) turn off independents from voting Dem.   I sure hope to be proven wrong.

bacchi

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Re: good news
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2019, 02:07:26 PM »
I am of the opinion that pursuing impeachment is likely to backfire on the Dems and 1) drive turnout of wavering GOP voters up; and 2) turn off independents from voting Dem.   I sure hope to be proven wrong.

Early polls indicate that many, and even some Republicans, think it should be investigated. If the House Dems can lay off the partisanship and stick to the facts, as present in the call transcript, it has legs.

former player

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Re: good news
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2019, 02:38:15 PM »
I am of the opinion that pursuing impeachment is likely to backfire on the Dems and 1) drive turnout of wavering GOP voters up; and 2) turn off independents from voting Dem.   I sure hope to be proven wrong.

Early polls indicate that many, and even some Republicans, think it should be investigated. If the House Dems can lay off the partisanship and stick to the facts, as present in the call transcript, it has legs.
The House Committee Chairmen also need to avoid mishandling hostile witnesses, as with Corey Lewandowski, as that could be fatal to the optics.  Hostile witnesses heard in private first, then in public when the right lines of questioning have been established.

Davnasty

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Re: good news
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2019, 05:41:39 PM »
Quote
In case anyone also wasn't aware of it, the Senate has both the power to remove from office as well as bar the person from any future office.

In case you weren't aware, the Senate has a Republican majority.

Look at this US Senator making up stories and NONE of it is in the call transcripts.  Pure lies.
https://www.newsweek.com/adam-schiff-parody-donald-trump-congressional-hearing-whistleblower-complaint-ukraine-call-1461579

So you're upset about what Schiff said about the transcript, but do you have an opinion about the transcript itself? Would you defend Trump's actions as innocent?

I think what was actually said on the call is much more relevant than politicians bickering after the fact.

ETA: We should probably continue this discussion over here

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/good-news/

How about we re-focus on Hunter Biden?  Joe Biden is likely toast now.   I think Warren is a stronger candidate for 2020, and the Ukraine issue will hurt Biden's campaign deeply.

@KBecks, If you'd like to continue this conversation we should probably do so in this thread.

Re-focus? I don't believe we were ever focused on Hunter Biden. If you'd like an explanation as to why he was working for a Ukrainian energy company, you can see up thread* or look it up.

What I would like to know is how you feel about what the president did. If it is the case that you think he did nothing wrong, I'd like to understand why.

* https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/good-news/msg2466915/#msg2466915 MonkeyJenga and formerplayer discuss here.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 05:58:56 PM by Dabnasty »