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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Nick_Miller on April 12, 2019, 07:48:13 AM

Title: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 12, 2019, 07:48:13 AM
Any fellow fans? This strikes me as a good place to talk about the show, as it's only on for like six weeks, so the thread wouldn't last too long, and I prefer in-depth analysis and back and forths with a handful of devoted fans instead of the "drive-by/meme" comments of social media.

Just a few topics we could discuss revving up to Sunday's episode!

Predictions for this season?
Umm...lots of deaths, including some fan favorites, and a lot of sacrifices. I think either Brienne or Jamie will die, perhaps either sacrificing themselves for the other, which I hate because I love them both as characters. I also think either Grey Worm or Missandei will bite it, as they can't let many, or any, "couples" make it through intact. I think Jon Snow will end up ruling (simply because he's the one who doesn't want it). Oh and Hound kills Mountain, perhaps after Mountain kills/almost kills Arya, who is coming to get him? OMG a Hound/Arya team-up taking down the Mountain would be an epic scene.

If you could, who would you give plot armor to?
Tyrion, Sam, Brienne, Jamie

Of all the characters, who would make the best ruler? (Even among those who don't legitimately have a chance to rule
Jon Snow has already had to make tough decisions, so him. But also perhaps Tyrion, or even Brienne (lol I could write fan fiction in a spin off where she rules, with Jamie as her hand, which yes is ironic)

Who do you think will end up on the throne, if anyone?
Jon Snow, but I'm sure there will be a swerve or three.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 12, 2019, 08:08:08 AM
We’re fans, and very excited for the last season.

I think Jamie will die. Maybe at the hands of Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 12, 2019, 08:27:13 AM
We’re fans, and very excited for the last season.

I think Jamie will die. Maybe at the hands of Cersei.

Noooooooooooo!

But..um yes that could happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on April 12, 2019, 08:30:27 AM
I'm pumped.  I usually wait for the end of the season and binge all 10 episodes.  Not sure if I will be able to restrain myself with this season.  I've been rewatching some of the season after a director/actor mention to pay attention to foreshadowing in the first season.  I think I caught some interesting ones so we'll see how they play out.

To me, Arya has the best storyline.  How can you beat her cool assassin abilities

Predictions for this season?
A part of me thinks the Mountain will kill the hound, with arya killing the mountain.  The Hound could have a bigger part to play, some fan theories think he is Azor Ahai, but this could also be Jon.  if Arya dies, i'm not sure what I will do.

If you could, who would you give plot armor to?
Arya, Tyrion

Of all the characters, who would make the best ruler? (Even among those who don't legitimately have a chance to rule
Tyrion would be the best ruler.  He's already shown that, but I think it will be always as a Hand, not the king.
Jon is a bit to Ned like, which I feel wouldn't work out the best ruling Westeros.
Danaerys is a conqueror, I'm not sure how she would do ruling.  And the Dragons create an issue once peace has settled (if possible)

Who do you think will end up on the throne, if anyone?
A part of me thinks no one will.  The show will end with Westeros in ruins and nothing left to rule.  Martin likes to throw twists in though, so it's hard to predict what might happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: PoutineLover on April 12, 2019, 08:49:31 AM
I'm so excited for this. My favourite character is Arya, but I'm not sure that she will survive. But I do think she's going to take down someone important. I want Jon to rule, but as much as I think it would be cool for him and Daenerys to rule together, it seems unlikely. I hope Cersei dies and Jamie lives,  along with Brienne. Tyrion would be a good hand too.
I think the dragons might all die, since now they have to fight each other, and that would be the end of dragons for a while. Or they will lay eggs.
Whatever happens, I'm sure characters I like will be killed by ones I don't like and that the twists will surprise me. Should be fun to watch regardless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on April 12, 2019, 09:01:20 AM
Jamie dying would be the natural conclusion of his redemption arc.

They’ll probably have Hound “kill” Mountain tho I don’t think there’s any dramatic tension left in that arc since Mountain is already dead.

Your other three faves are probably safe.

Honestly, the logical narrative arcs for every character are complete. Big swerves now would just be contrarian. I’d be really (pleasantly) surprised if they pulled one off without it feeling like the fulfillment of a meme.

Ending with anything other than:
-beating the Walkers
-Jon/Dany as co-rulers
-Tyrion as Hand/lord of Casterly Rock
-Sansa as lady of Winterfell
-Brienne being awesome somewhere
-Cersei dying

would be a narrative disappointment. I hope they stay the course now rather than throwing it away because “surprises are what GoT is known for!”. Given how S7.1 was structured it seems like the show runners understand this but ya never know.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on April 12, 2019, 09:18:07 AM
Jamie dying would be the natural conclusion of his redemption arc.

They’ll probably have Hound “kill” Mountain tho I don’t think there’s any dramatic tension left in that arc since Mountain is already dead.

Your other three faves are probably safe.

Honestly, the logical narrative arcs for every character are complete. Big swerves now would just be contrarian. I’d be really (pleasantly) surprised if they pulled one off without it feeling like the fulfillment of a meme.

Ending with anything other than:
-beating the Walkers
-Jon/Dany as co-rulers
-Tyrion as Hand/lord of Casterly Rock
-Sansa as lady of Winterfell
-Brienne being awesome somewhere
-Cersei dying

would be a narrative disappointment. I hope they stay the course now rather than throwing it away because “surprises are what GoT is known for!”. Given how S7.1 was structured it seems like the show runners understand this but ya never know.

I wouldn't say they would throw away the storylines just because everyone expects a twist. That'd be lazy writing.  If they are good writers the twists will make the story line stronger and better.  If it follows the "logical narrative" as you laid out that'd be pretty boring.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on April 12, 2019, 09:22:46 AM
If I were writing this thing:  Arya will take down Cercei and Jamie will witness it and choose not to intervene. 

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Milizard on April 12, 2019, 09:39:05 AM
I binged all the previous seasons in a couple months' time earlier this year.  I'm pumped for the new/last season, but get the episodes from my husband's work friend, so I won't be up to date as the new episodes come out.

Jon Snow is my man!  Also like Arya (reminds me of a much braver me as a child), and Brienne, and Tyrion, of course, but I wouldn't like him for a ruler.  He's thoughtful, but makes bad decisions, too.

I'd love to see Brienne end up with that red-haired wildling that has the hots for her (is his name Ermund?).  He seems to be attracted to her for exactly who she is, and not despite of who she is.  I really like that.

There's a good forum for folks who like to discuss their favorite TV shows.  Here's the link to the GOT section:
https://forums.previously.tv/forum/196-game-of-thrones/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 12, 2019, 09:39:11 AM
If I were writing this thing:  Arya will take down Cercei and Jamie will witness it and choose not to intervene.

Ooh. Interesting.

Except in spite of everything, he loves her completely. More than she loves him, for sure.

I can't imagine him not intervening. Or if he manages not to, he won't be able to live with himself, so he'll have to go on a suicide attack against the walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cool Friend on April 12, 2019, 09:46:17 AM
I bet everyone realizes that the real game of thrones was the friends they made along the way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on April 12, 2019, 09:57:27 AM
Quote
If they are good writers the twists will make the story line stronger and better. 

Sure, easy to say that. My point was at stage in the game -essentially the end of Act 3- I’m struggling to envision a twist, especially one involving our principal characters, that makes things “stronger and better”.

Quote
If it follows the "logical narrative" as you laid out that'd be pretty boring.

It would? Just having an enormous battle against the undead with aerial dragon fighting would be boring? We’ve only got 6 episodes here. Roughly speaking, 1 to resolve Cersei, 1 to screw around with Theon, 1 to rally everyone together, probably 2 full episodes of battle followed by a full episode of denouement. Not a lot of runway left for narrative realignment.

If I can get to a keyboard I’ll write a longer piece on why I think additional character deaths (beyond Cersei/Jaime) would serve little purpose but for now I’ll just say I’d be happy to be surprised in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on April 12, 2019, 10:17:37 AM
Quote
If they are good writers the twists will make the story line stronger and better. 

Sure, easy to say that. My point was at stage in the game -essentially the end of Act 3- I’m struggling to envision a twist, especially one involving our principal characters, that makes things “stronger and better”.

Quote
If it follows the "logical narrative" as you laid out that'd be pretty boring.

It would? Just having an enormous battle against the undead with aerial dragon fighting would be boring? We’ve only got 6 episodes here. Roughly speaking, 1 to resolve Cersei, 1 to screw around with Theon, 1 to rally everyone together, probably 2 full episodes of battle followed by a full episode of denouement. Not a lot of runway left for narrative realignment.

If I can get to a keyboard I’ll write a longer piece on why I think additional character deaths (beyond Cersei/Jaime) would serve little purpose but for now I’ll just say I’d be happy to be surprised in a few weeks.

Yes.  The cinematics of that part of the story are going to be great and it would conclude the story, but it's predictable.  I'd bet (maybe I'm hoping) the landscape of westeros will be vastly different, with people we don't expect living and dying.  Hell, Cersei might even win, which could be interesting.  Or Bronn might be the only one left alive.

I wouldn't be disapointed if the White Walkers won.  Based on exisiting knowledge we have as viewers, they should win.  A tireless and nearly endless army lead by super strength leaders.  They've shown they can handle dragons and even have one of their own now.  But there have been clues to other sources of magic etc that could help the living win.

Bran is going to play an interesting role and I really have no Idea how its going to come into play.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 12, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
The ending should be a battlefield littered with dead humans, ice zombies, dragons, etc., and there stands Bronn and he says, "Who the f is gonna pay me?"

End credit.

Or...

The ending should be a battlefield littered with dead humans, ice zombies, dragons, etc., and there stands Brienne and no one else is alive, but then, out from a pile of bodies stands Tormund and he gives her that look and she's like, "Well....alright then."

Or...

Cersei is on the verge of winning and she captures Jamie and he's in her room and they banter, and somehow he gets free and he pushes her out the window, connecting the finale with the first episode where Jamie does that to Bran.

Or...

Okay I could do this all day. I am a big deal in the writing world.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Samuel on April 12, 2019, 10:31:47 AM
Bran is going to play an interesting role and I really have no Idea how its going to come into play.

This. Hard to see how the living can defeat the dead in any conventional way. Bran's the only one who can turn things ultra-unconventional.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Milizard on April 12, 2019, 10:58:51 AM
I saw a spoiler video on YouTube that seemed so likely, I would be surprised if the season doesn't go almost exactly  the way it was described.  And Bran was the key.

(I  wish I hadn't seen the spoiler. I had assumed it was going to be just a bunch of made up BS.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: bacchi on April 12, 2019, 11:02:49 AM
Cersei dies by one of her brothers.

The witch, in the books, told her this when she was a child. She said a "little brother" would kill her and Cersei assumed it would be Tyrion. Jamie, however, is also her younger brother.

Maggy the Frog also told Cersei that another, younger and more beautiful, would take all that she holds dear. That would be Daenerys.

(Maggy told Cersei that she would have 3 children, who would die early, and the King would have 20. This came true.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 12, 2019, 11:16:46 AM
I've thought more than once that the end would be a hellscape with the White Walkers defeated, but Cersei on the throne of a kingdom of ashes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on April 12, 2019, 12:13:43 PM
Predictions for this season?
Oh so many. D&D were given the broad strokes from GRRM, so I don't expect the ending to match the books, but I have high hopes for some of the prophesy:

 - Brienne/Jamie and Sandor will take down The Mountain (A golden knight and a man with the head of a hound facing a foe full of black blood)
 - Jon and Dany end up together with Tyrion as hand (the dragon has three heads), even if they don't all survive
 - Drogon will slay wight Viserion with fire, mirroring Drogo killing Viserys
 - Jamie will kill Cersei (the valonquar prophesy)
 - Some tinfoil: The "Night King" (different than in the books) is actually Bran from the future, who wargs into the First Man the children turned at the time of the ritual that created the White Walkers, where he gets stuck and eventually goes mad; this is why the Night King is so attuned to Bran, they are one

If you could, who would you give plot armor to?
Tyrion (he is GRRM in the story) and Jon (who is literally the Song of Ice and Fire [R+L=J, with R being a talented musician])

Of all the characters, who would make the best ruler? (Even among those who don't legitimately have a chance to rule)
Jon with Tyrion as hand

Who do you think will end up on the throne, if anyone?
Not sure if anyone will. Dany had a vision of walking through the Red Keep, which was roofless, while white powder fell all around her. This could either be ash or snow. Either way I believe the throne will be destroyed somehow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 12, 2019, 01:19:02 PM
I just binge rewatched 7 episodes of season 4 today. That’s the season where Joffrey is killed and the mountain crushes Oberyn’s head. I’ll rewatch the rest of the season tomorrow. On Monday night I’m having friends over for a season premiere pizza and beers evening.

Sansa was really lame in the first 3 seasons but has been growing into a powerful player. I wouldn’t mind seeing her make a few big power moves early in season 8, which Dany sees as a threat to her. It’d be awesome if this led to Dany killing Sansa and Arya then killing Dany. Jon is left to rule Westeros alone with Tyrion as hand at his side.....

I see this as a zero % chance of happening as the whole show is about powerful women, so it would be really odd to kill them all off at the end.

I am really keen to see what becomes of Varys. With Baelish dead I’d expect Varys to make a big power move as he has to at some point which probably sees him dead.

The hound has to kill the mountain. Please!!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: PDXTabs on April 12, 2019, 04:43:39 PM
Who do you think will end up on the throne, if anyone?
A part of me thinks no one will.  The show will end with Westeros in ruins and nothing left to rule.  Martin likes to throw twists in though, so it's hard to predict what might happen.

The army of the dead could easily win, presenting some sort of parable for cooperation or good governing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 12, 2019, 04:50:26 PM
Who do you think will end up on the throne, if anyone?
A part of me thinks no one will.  The show will end with Westeros in ruins and nothing left to rule.  Martin likes to throw twists in though, so it's hard to predict what might happen.

The army of the dead could easily win, presenting some sort of parable for cooperation or good governing.

To the extent that the show is a parable for climate change... Yep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Milizard on April 12, 2019, 06:05:46 PM
Predictions for this season?
Oh so many. D&D were given the broad strokes from GRRM, so I don't expect the ending to match the books, but I have high hopes for some of the prophesy:

 - Brienne/Jamie and Sandor will take down The Mountain (A golden knight and a man with the head of a hound facing a foe full of black blood)
 - Jon and Dany end up together with Tyrion as hand (the dragon has three heads), even if they don't all survive
 - Drogon will slay wight Viserion with fire, mirroring Drogo killing Viserys
 - Jamie will kill Cersei (the valonquar prophesy)
 - Some tinfoil: The "Night King" (different than in the books) is actually Bran from the future, who wargs into the First Man the children turned at the time of the ritual that created the White Walkers, where he gets stuck and eventually goes mad; this is why the Night King is so attuned to Bran, they are one

If you could, who would you give plot armor to?
Tyrion (he is GRRM in the story) and Jon (who is literally the Song of Ice and Fire [R+L=J, with R being a talented musician])

Of all the characters, who would make the best ruler? (Even among those who don't legitimately have a chance to rule)
Jon with Tyrion as hand

Who do you think will end up on the throne, if anyone?
Not sure if anyone will. Dany had a vision of walking through the Red Keep, which was roofless, while white powder fell all around her. This could either be ash or snow. Either way I believe the throne will be destroyed somehow.
Your tinfoil is right along the lines of the spoiler I saw. I think it is very likely to go down that way (Jon having to kill him to save everyone else).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Manchester on April 13, 2019, 03:41:52 PM
I'm not convinced Khaleesi will survive.  The last 3 seasons have built up to her 'taking' the Iron Throne.  It's not Martin's style to follow the usual path.


I'm most excited for Brandon's role.  'You'll never walk again, but you will fly'.  I hope this is a reference to Brandon warging into a dragon rather than the ravens he's been using to spy on the army of the dead. 

I'm going to be so upset when all this is over. :')
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: driftwood on April 13, 2019, 04:04:26 PM
If I have to pick one, I'll go with the Night King. He has the focus, drive, and logic to defeat the petty humans. I mean, they're actually killing each other for him! Bonus that he can revive the dead for his army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 13, 2019, 06:25:43 PM


I'm most excited for Brandon's role.  'You'll never walk again, but you will fly'.  I hope this is a reference to Brandon warging into a dragon rather than the ravens he's been using to spy on the army of the dead. 



Ooh. Good point. He could warg into the dragon that was taken by the Night King, as a kamikaze mission!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: HPstache on April 13, 2019, 07:08:37 PM
How is everyone watching GOT this season?  HBO Now ap?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: LittleWanderer on April 14, 2019, 07:26:11 AM
Either Jon or Dany has to die.  I just can't see an ending where both of them live.

Also: OMGOMGOMGOMG GoT is back!!! 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jon_Snow on April 14, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
One hell of a TV show. I’m a big fan.

Just about to rewatch the episode with my DW.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on April 15, 2019, 08:34:24 AM
Despite having read the books and watched the tv show,  DH totally forgot Tyrion and Sansa are married (or were, actually can't remember if that was resolved) when they first met last night.  Also, it had never even occurred to me that Jamie would have to face Bran at some point.

My god, I'm kind of glad this is finally wrapping up. I started reading this series TWENTY YEARS AGO (and that was several years after publication), Martin is never going to finish the books, and I can't believe the series itself has been airing since 2011. It's exhausting and I just want some closure LOL.


ETA: What is it with production companies deciding to adapt epic series that aren't even finished? Rothfuss' series is all set to film as a movie AND a tv series (WTF?), and I'm starting to be suspicious the author isn't going to finish that trilogy either.  Why not adapt Sanderson? At least he is a reliable writer with some completed material. Or some of Guy Kay's amazing stuff. :grumble grumble:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on April 15, 2019, 08:38:55 AM
How is everyone watching GOT this season?  HBO Now ap?

I just cruise the internet.  You'll get enough spoilers from people talking about the show that you know exactly what happened.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 15, 2019, 09:21:22 AM
I was a little underwhelmed by the premiere. 7/10.

Yes, it was good to see everyone again, and I know they had to move the chess pieces around a bit, but I was hoping for a little bit of forward momentum. I do like that they ended the episode with the dead on the move quickly. I would expect some sort of epic battle in Episode 3.

I will give an MVP for each of these last 6 episodes.

For Episode 1, my MVP is Arya. I loved her reunion with Jon, I loved her "first I robbed you" line to the Hound, and I loved her awkward flirting with Gendry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jon_Snow on April 15, 2019, 09:33:40 AM
Despite having read the books and watched the tv show,  DH totally forgot Tyrion and Sansa are married (or were, actually can't remember if that was resolved) when they first met last night.  Also, it had never even occurred to me that Jamie would have to face Bran at some point.

My god, I'm kind of glad this is finally wrapping up. I started reading this series TWENTY YEARS AGO (and that was several years after publication), Martin is never going to finish the books, and I can't believe the series itself has been airing since 2011. It's exhausting and I just want some closure LOL.

I've been on board this train since the publication of A Game of Thrones back in 1996. Still have my first edition copy, complete with it's AWFUL cover art.  ;) I was struggling to get through Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time when I picked up AGoT on a whim at my local bookstore. It was exactly what the Fantasy genre needed at the time...the farmboy-rises-up-to-battle-evil-Dark Lord formula had grown tired for me. With this, the "heroes" were often indistinguishable from the "villians". When Tyrion expressed a desire to pee over the edge of the 700ft wall of ice...I knew this was going to be something different in terms of honest portrayal of human motivations. The first 3 books were perfection for me...but then I believe that GRRM succumbed to the temptations of his "celebrity author" status and lost his discipline. I agree that he is unlikely to finish the books. I am quite disappointed that I'm learning about long standing mysteries (Hodor) through the TV show and not the books.

As with most on screen adaptations, there have been some uneven moments - Sandsnakes/Dorne plot lines were terrible IMO - but this shows high moments are probably right up there with anything ever shown on the tube.

I was a little underwhelmed by the premiere. 7/10.

Yes, it was good to see everyone again, and I know they had to move the chess pieces around a bit, but I was hoping for a little bit of forward momentum. I do like that they ended the episode with the dead on the move quickly. I would expect some sort of epic battle in Episode 3.

Yep, a very typical opening episode for the series. Now the pieces are in place for the narrative to move forward. The show runners have a TON to get done in the next 5 episodes.

Highlight for me was Bran's ability to weird people out....and... "I'm waiting for an old friend..." *chills*
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 15, 2019, 09:42:03 AM
I was a little underwhelmed by the premiere. 7/10.

Yes, it was good to see everyone again, and I know they had to move the chess pieces around a bit, but I was hoping for a little bit of forward momentum. I do like that they ended the episode with the dead on the move quickly. I would expect some sort of epic battle in Episode 3.

I will give an MVP for each of these last 6 episodes.

For Episode 1, my MVP is Arya. I loved her reunion with Jon, I loved her "first I robbed you" line to the Hound, and I loved her awkward flirting with Gendry.

Agree. There were some funny moments, but there wasn't much action. I sort of forgive them, though, because they had to bring so many people together who had either never met before or hadn't seen each other in forever. I tell myself it would have been weird if they'd all just said, "Hey," and started wasting white walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Longwaytogo on April 15, 2019, 10:20:38 AM
One hell of a TV show

. I’m a big fan.

Just about to rewatch the episode with my DW.

It is indeed!!

You don't say (;

I was contemplating re-watching these last six twice each just to see if I pick up on anything I missed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Longwaytogo on April 15, 2019, 10:24:25 AM
I was a little underwhelmed by the premiere. 7/10.

Yes, it was good to see everyone again, and I know they had to move the chess pieces around a bit, but I was hoping for a little bit of forward momentum. I do like that they ended the episode with the dead on the move quickly. I would expect some sort of epic battle in Episode 3.

I will give an MVP for each of these last 6 episodes.

For Episode 1, my MVP is Arya. I loved her reunion with Jon, I loved her "first I robbed you" line to the Hound, and I loved her awkward flirting with Gendry.

Agrred on underwhelmed but still good and you have to start somewhere.

Arya was good. I also liked when John asked if she'd used the sword and she said "once or twice"

Excited for next week!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 15, 2019, 10:53:44 AM
For past season and this episode they have been showing how Dany is overly hungry for the throne. I expect this means things won’t end well for Dany. I look forward to seeing her fall from power..... or not
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on April 15, 2019, 11:00:38 AM
Mostly posting to follow.

I didn't quite catch it, but I believe the Hound did not see Arya when he rode in.   That's a meeting I'm looking forward to! 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 15, 2019, 11:06:39 AM
I keep wondering if Tyrion made some sort of deal with Sersei in the season 7 finale?

1) Tyrion met with Sersei in season 7 finale, and the cameras cut away after he learns of her pregnancy. I think we are to infer that he feels horribly guilty about her kids and doesn't want either her or her unborn child to die. But what did he say that hadn't already been said to get her to, at least on the surface, pledge her troops?

2) Tyrion is the one person standing outside of Jon and Dany's cabin in the Season 7 finale while they uh...bang, and he looks sort of creepy and a bit pensive about something.

3) Even in the Episode 8 premiere, he is telling everyone who will listen that the Lannisters will come help them. Notice that he's the one who said it. Dany and Jon had heard the pledge back in the Season 7 finale and apparently but they didn't mention it to the northerners. Sansa even tells Tyrion he's foolish for believing it.

Did Tyrion give up some sort of info or so something to give Sersei some advantage? I'm not saying "full heel turn," just some sort of unauthorized info.

I guess we'll see when Jamie shows up and confirms no army is coming. Maybe I am reading too much into this notion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on April 15, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
Mostly posting to follow.

I didn't quite catch it, but I believe the Hound did not see Arya when he rode in.   That's a meeting I'm looking forward to!

They met later in the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: techwiz on April 15, 2019, 11:48:45 AM
PTF haven't seen the latest yet.

Reading some of the comments sounds like the 1st episode doesn't live up to expectations, but how could it after waiting so long!  Reminds me of the Star wars movie series. I really hope the great battle will meet my expectations. Now going to watch ep1 with lower expectations, this might allow me to enjoy it more.   

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ketchup on April 15, 2019, 12:16:20 PM
Aw yeah.  Season premiere was great.  Lots of satisfying reunions.  Ending was a great mic-drop moment.

How is everyone watching GOT this season?  HBO Now ap?
HBO Now on PC for us.  Played 100% smoothly despite everyone hammering the HBO servers at the same time, and looked good even on our so-bad 6mbps DSL.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on April 15, 2019, 01:00:21 PM
I keep wondering if Tyrion made some sort of deal with Sersei in the season 7 finale?

We rewatched the S7 final right before watching the Season 8 premier and I'm with you, Tyrion had to give Cersei something, or at least make her think she's getting something. I do not believe that he would turn on Dany and The North, especially since he really likes Jon, was married to Sansa, and designed Bran's wheelchair and saddle.

"Waiting for an old friend" was amazing. I think that while Dany will want to execute Jamie for his regicide, Jon or Tyrion will suggest that she allow him to take the black. With the last group of Night's Watchmen coming down from the wall, it would be appropriate for him to become the last Lord Commander if something happens to Edd, and it would complete his redemption arc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Longwaytogo on April 15, 2019, 02:41:45 PM
I keep wondering if Tyrion made some sort of deal with Sersei in the season 7 finale?

We rewatched the S7 final right before watching the Season 8 premier and I'm with you, Tyrion had to give Cersei something, or at least make her think she's getting something. I do not believe that he would turn on Dany and The North, especially since he really likes Jon, was married to Sansa, and designed Bran's wheelchair and saddle.

I don't know I wondered that too but part of me just thinks maybe she told him that she'd help just to get him to leave kings landing (and take the dragons and unsullied with him).

Who knows. Defintley excited to see Jamie/Tyrions reunion and how he takes it when he finds out she lied. Curious if he did promise her anything if he would reveal it to Jamie at that time. You'd assume that will happen next week right, with only 5 weeks to go gotta move it on.

No chance Jamie would keep the lie going and say the troops are right behind him??
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on April 15, 2019, 05:37:15 PM
I keep wondering if Tyrion made some sort of deal with Sersei in the season 7 finale?

We rewatched the S7 final right before watching the Season 8 premier and I'm with you, Tyrion had to give Cersei something, or at least make her think she's getting something. I do not believe that he would turn on Dany and The North, especially since he really likes Jon, was married to Sansa, and designed Bran's wheelchair and saddle.

I don't know I wondered that too but part of me just thinks maybe she told him that she'd help just to get him to leave kings landing (and take the dragons and unsullied with him).

Who knows. Defintley excited to see Jamie/Tyrions reunion and how he takes it when he finds out she lied. Curious if he did promise her anything if he would reveal it to Jamie at that time. You'd assume that will happen next week right, with only 5 weeks to go gotta move it on.

No chance Jamie would keep the lie going and say the troops are right behind him??

I don’t think he promised her anything, I think that he is just naively holding on to the dream that there is a drop of good in her.  She lied to get rid of them al by sending them to be slaughtered by 5e night king.  If Tyrion promised Cersei anything she wanted, why send Bronn north to kill Jamie and Tyrion?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Psychstache on April 16, 2019, 07:34:25 PM
If you are a fan of the Netflix reboot of "Queer Eye" (and you should be, it is amazing), then you will be excited to learn that Jonathan has a Funny or Die show where he does peoples hair and recaps the show called "Gay of Thrones".

https://www.funnyordie.com/authors/gay-of-thrones
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: nnls on April 20, 2019, 11:06:54 PM
Ive really enjoyed Sansa character arc and would like her to somehow end up on the throne or maybe as hand of the king/queen

I think Jamie will kill cersei or let someone else do it (as in not stop Arya )

I wasn't hugely impressed with the first episode of this new season, I read somewhere there was a huge battle in episodes 2 and 5 but I dont know if this is accurate.

Characters I want to be alive at the end Arya, Brienne, Tyrion

I would also like to see Brienne and  Tormund get together, though I think she is in love with Jamie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on April 22, 2019, 06:40:06 AM
A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is probably one of the best episodes ever IMO. More heartfelt reunions and some new meetings, a final calm moment before the end. Dany realizing more and more that you can't just show up. Several references to Sir Duncan the Tall (Jenny of Oldstones, Brienne's knighting). 10/10.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 22, 2019, 07:16:22 AM
I concur. I really enjoyed it. All the little moments just raised the stakes for next week even more. Big CGI battles mean nothing without an emotional component behind them. I give this one a 9/10.

That being said, I am sadly prepared for my heart to be ripped out next week, as I anticipate Brienne, Davos, and Grey Worm will all meet their ends in battle. Just a guess, not based on anything other than my watching of last night's episode. Still, I loved every minute of the drinking scene around the fire; most of my favorite characters were there all in one place!

My MVP for this episode: Brienne. Her reaction to being knighted was probably one of my favorite moments in the entire series. True, I think it seals her fate, but it was an epic scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on April 22, 2019, 07:39:57 AM
My predictions after these first two episodes:

Jon will die, again, during or just after the great battle but Dany is pregnant with their child

Jamie will survive but with a grievous wound that will not allow him to live long but insists on joining the army as it moves south against his sister.  Brienne cares for him until his death.

Bran will indeed be the key to killing the Night King (love the idea of him warging into the ice dragon!), surviving but being less human than he is now and will retreat north? to seek refuge away from humanity

Cersei, seeing Dany approaching with her one remaining dragon and seeing her people flee her side to join with Dany, burns the Red Keep with wildfire as soon as Dany's army gets inside the city walls

Bronn kills the remaining dragon but that doesn't stop Kings Landing from being overrun/taken back by the Targareon forces

Tyrion, handed the crossbow by Bronn, kills his sister in mercy to keep her from dying in the fire or to finish her off as she lays dying of burns.  He tells Jamie what he did and why before Jamie dies from his wounds

Dany, finding the Iron Throne turned to slag by the fire, returns north to Winterfell to rule from there and raise Jon's child.  Sansa is keeping a close eye on her as the madness that took her grandfather seems to be coming for her.  Arya, pregnant with Robert Baratheon's grandchild, is Dany's hand.  The wheel is set for another round of fights for the Seven Kingdoms with the heirs to the Targareon, Baratheon, and Starks (through Sansa) still around.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on April 22, 2019, 10:24:10 AM

My MVP for this episode: Brienne. Her reaction to being knighted was probably one of my favorite moments in the entire series. True, I think it seals her fate, but it was an epic scene.

And the runner up is Jamie, who completed his redemption by knighting Brienne. 

Honorable mention to Bran who had a couple great lines.  When Jamie was defending his prior actions to Sansa and Dany, Bran interjected "The things we do for love."  Which is the same thing that Jamie said when he pushed Bran out the window.  Another one was when Jamie asked Bran how things turn out afterwards and Bran says "How do you know there is an afterwards?”  Awkward silence follows.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jon_Snow on April 22, 2019, 10:26:15 AM
Felt like a second “setup” episode in a row. But that might be the best setup in the history of TV. We were reminded why we love so many of these characters - some I’ve been following since ‘96 - and now we are prepared to have our hearts ripped out I expect.

And did anyone else notice the Ghost cameo?

And well done Arya and Gendry. And Brienne...felt like I had something in my eye during that scene. ;)

Love that they got Tormund’s “Giantsbane” backstory in there. That’s the kind of fan service I devour greedily.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on April 22, 2019, 12:22:37 PM
And did anyone else notice the Ghost cameo?

And well done Arya and Gendry.
Yeah, Ghost looked small and had no interactions.  Wish they could've done a little more there but ah well, great episode.  The audience knows a lot of information at this point and am glad they can imply things we already know without having to spell it out between every character that was previously in the dark about something.  e.g. Jon saying his mother died giving birth with all the bloody details didn't come from Sam, obviously he has chatted in depth with Bran about things even though they haven't shown Bran talking with anyone except Tyrion this past ep.

Glad Ned and Robert finally "joined their houses", especially since Joff didn't even have his DNA. ;-) 

I'm betting something is going to occur next ep that doesn't bring a conclusion to the White Walkers.  I mean, they were the real threat in the pilot episode and their mythology and background has been teased - would be a letdown if they get wiped out in a single episode and it's back to humans squabbling with other humans. 

Spoiler: show

I'm prepared to say goodbye to Tormund, Jorah, Beric, Theon, and Grey Worm next ep - should be brutal! Pod, Davos, Gendry, and Sandor are quite possible, too.

In the preview for next week it looked like Jon drawing his sword in the godswood, presumably to take on the NK after Theon has just died protecting Bran if I had to guess.  I don't think it ends there.  Something either with the crypts (seriously, they mentioned the crypts too often and with the book foreshadowing of the statues seeming to watch passerbys and Robb and Jon's dreams, I feel like something supernatural will happen down there), Bran, dragon-riding, Jon/Daeny, or some combo will create a diversion.  We know Bran is the NK target, if he gets whisked away by Jon or Daeny on a dragon to KL or somewhere south with the NK in tow - does that save Winterfell (since the wights raised by NK would follow) and hold off the White Walker question until the finale? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ncornilsen on April 22, 2019, 12:49:23 PM
And did anyone else notice the Ghost cameo?

And well done Arya and Gendry.
Yeah, Ghost looked small and had no interactions.  Wish they could've done a little more there but ah well, great episode.  The audience knows a lot of information at this point and am glad they can imply things we already know without having to spell it out between every character that was previously in the dark about something.  e.g. Jon saying his mother died giving birth with all the bloody details didn't come from Sam, obviously he has chatted in depth with Bran about things even though they haven't shown Bran talking with anyone except Tyrion this past ep.

Glad Ned and Robert finally "joined their houses", especially since Joff didn't even have his DNA. ;-) 

I'm betting something is going to occur next ep that doesn't bring a conclusion to the White Walkers.  I mean, they were the real threat in the pilot episode and their mythology and background has been teased - would be a letdown if they get wiped out in a single episode and it's back to humans squabbling with other humans. 

Spoiler: show

I'm prepared to say goodbye to Tormund, Jorah, Beric, Theon, and Grey Worm next ep - should be brutal! Pod, Davos, Gendry, and Sandor are quite possible, too.

In the preview for next week it looked like Jon drawing his sword in the godswood, presumably to take on the NK after Theon has just died protecting Bran if I had to guess.  I don't think it ends there.  Something either with the crypts (seriously, they mentioned the crypts too often and with the book foreshadowing of the statues seeming to watch passerbys and Robb and Jon's dreams, I feel like something supernatural will happen down there), Bran, dragon-riding, Jon/Daeny, or some combo will create a diversion.  We know Bran is the NK target, if he gets whisked away by Jon or Daeny on a dragon to KL or somewhere south with the NK in tow - does that save Winterfell (since the wights raised by NK would follow) and hold off the White Walker question until the finale? 


Spoiler: show
I fully expect the night king will resurrect the bones of all the dead starks resting in the crypts, who will kill off a bunch of the innocents hiding there.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on April 22, 2019, 01:40:36 PM
And did anyone else notice the Ghost cameo?

And well done Arya and Gendry.
Yeah, Ghost looked small and had no interactions.  Wish they could've done a little more there but ah well, great episode.  The audience knows a lot of information at this point and am glad they can imply things we already know without having to spell it out between every character that was previously in the dark about something.  e.g. Jon saying his mother died giving birth with all the bloody details didn't come from Sam, obviously he has chatted in depth with Bran about things even though they haven't shown Bran talking with anyone except Tyrion this past ep.

Glad Ned and Robert finally "joined their houses", especially since Joff didn't even have his DNA. ;-) 

I'm betting something is going to occur next ep that doesn't bring a conclusion to the White Walkers.  I mean, they were the real threat in the pilot episode and their mythology and background has been teased - would be a letdown if they get wiped out in a single episode and it's back to humans squabbling with other humans. 

Spoiler: show

I'm prepared to say goodbye to Tormund, Jorah, Beric, Theon, and Grey Worm next ep - should be brutal! Pod, Davos, Gendry, and Sandor are quite possible, too.

In the preview for next week it looked like Jon drawing his sword in the godswood, presumably to take on the NK after Theon has just died protecting Bran if I had to guess.  I don't think it ends there.  Something either with the crypts (seriously, they mentioned the crypts too often and with the book foreshadowing of the statues seeming to watch passerbys and Robb and Jon's dreams, I feel like something supernatural will happen down there), Bran, dragon-riding, Jon/Daeny, or some combo will create a diversion.  We know Bran is the NK target, if he gets whisked away by Jon or Daeny on a dragon to KL or somewhere south with the NK in tow - does that save Winterfell (since the wights raised by NK would follow) and hold off the White Walker question until the finale? 


Spoiler: show
I fully expect the night king will resurrect the bones of all the dead starks resting in the crypts, who will kill off a bunch of the innocents hiding there.





If anything I suspect it will be the opposite.  The Starks go back to the first men and have some special powers surrounding their family, as seen with Benjen.  Several youtubers also have this speculation.

Cersei also had a line from the first season "I thought the ghost of Lyanna Stark could no longer haunt me" (not exact quote, going off memory).  This could be a reference to Jon Stark or it could be a reference to something else, maybe even your speculation.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Noodle on April 22, 2019, 10:32:30 PM
It's seemed pretty likely for awhile that some major (or at least well-loved) characters will get killed off in next week's big battle scene...but what I hadn't thought of until I read an article about it was that it's likely that some of them will come back as wights on the Night King's side. So I predict that there will be at least one death of someone who would be really tragic as an ice zombie and hard for the survivors to kill--someone like Tormund, or Missandei, or Lyanna Mormont

I actually don't think Jaime is on the chopping block in this battle, because he still has unfinished business with Cersei that I think the show will want to wrap up--but Brienne, Podrick, Gendry, Ser Davos--all those folks have a better than even chance of getting killed off.

(Not sure about Sam...originally I would have put him on that list too, but it seems like there also might be unfinished business with Dany over her execution of his father and brother.)

What I am really curious about is how they intend to resolve the battle with the Night King, since ALL the major characters other than Cersei are now at Winterfell...ie, if he wins, they all get killed off, but the third episode seems early to kill off the enemy who was literally set up in the first minutes of the show. It doesn't seem like there are partial successes against the Night King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 23, 2019, 06:05:12 AM
Good point about the Night King, Noodle. You’re right that if they don’t win that battle, I don’t know how there’s an episode 4. Unless they lose, and the last episodes are about Cersei, Yara, Euron, etc.
which doesn’t seem very satisfactory at all for viewers.

Hm.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 23, 2019, 06:53:28 AM
I also keep wondering if they will wrap up the ice walkers in just a single 80-minute episode.

On one hand, that seems really quick, considering they've been the real "Big Bad" since the very beginning.

On the other hand, if it takes two episodes to dispatch them, then that leaves only one episode to transition EVERYTHING down to Kings Landing and resolve ALL of those issues, and then one episode to put a bow on everything and let us know what all the surviving characters will be doing. Those last two episodes would seem very rushed.

I have no idea how they're going to do it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on April 23, 2019, 07:27:36 AM
Quote
I actually don't think Jaime is on the chopping block in this battle,

He and Tyrion are safe for now since they aren't going to waste the setup with Bronn from Ep. 1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on April 23, 2019, 08:41:30 AM
Quote
I actually don't think Jaime is on the chopping block in this battle,

He and Tyrion are safe for now since they aren't going to waste the setup with Bronn from Ep. 1
Agree, Bronn has to be involved so then Jamie can die in the arms of the woman he loves (or tall blond woman who loves him dearly, whatever).

Based on Jorah vouching this past ep, I imagine that spares the question of Tyrion's fate (like a run-in with Bronn in some manner) to the finale or at least the penultimate.  He could very well live, just the real make-or-break moment won't be for a few episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Noodle on April 23, 2019, 11:40:33 AM
Now that I think about it more, I wonder if the sequence of events is something like this:

The humans and the Night King end up deadlocked at Winterfell, neither side able to win.

Cersei offers to trade her game-changer army for, say, the decapitated head of Dany. Or a dragon. This would stir up all kinds of plot-worthy conflict at Winterfell, because Jon Snow, of course, would sacrifice himself without hesitation, but I'm not sure that Dany would. They've already laid a lot of groundwork for the fact that the Starks, and Jon Snow's friends, are loyal to the North and each other in a way that Dany's allies aren't. Plus he's got one younger cousin/sibling who can change faces, and another who's clairvoyant, which could add all kinds of twists to a plot like that.

Of course, I am terrible at this, so it's probably something else entirely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: HPstache on April 23, 2019, 12:40:32 PM
Now that I think about it more, I wonder if the sequence of events is something like this:

The humans and the Night King end up deadlocked at Winterfell, neither side able to win.

Cersei offers to trade her game-changer army for, say, the decapitated head of Dany. Or a dragon. This would stir up all kinds of plot-worthy conflict at Winterfell, because Jon Snow, of course, would sacrifice himself without hesitation, but I'm not sure that Dany would. They've already laid a lot of groundwork for the fact that the Starks, and Jon Snow's friends, are loyal to the North and each other in a way that Dany's allies aren't. Plus he's got one younger cousin/sibling who can change faces, and another who's clairvoyant, which could add all kinds of twists to a plot like that.

Of course, I am terrible at this, so it's probably something else entirely.

I'm not sure how this battle head toward a deadlock.  The whitewalker army does not become tired or need to sleep.  This battle can't last much more than 36-48 hours since the army of the living will need to rest eventually...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on April 23, 2019, 01:32:03 PM
@Lulee, great post! Thanks to all for the fun predictions. Here're mine...

Wild predictions:

Night King reanimates the dead in the crypts.
The little girl down there battles valiantly to save the living.
White Walkers win at Winterfell, but some survivors retreat.
Survivors defeat the Night King by tying together threads of magic, such as:
  Dany sacrifices herself to save Drogon, gets reanimated by NK;
  Jorah plunges that Tarley sword through her heart, destroying his former love;
  Arya kills several White Walkers with her new weapon, enabling Bran to survive;
  Jaime plunges his sword in into Cersei's heart, revealing his sword as Lightbringer while fulfilling prophecy;
  To stave off the Long Night, Jon realizes he is the Prince That Was Promised;
  Jon replaces the Night King, reanimates the new dead, and takes them north to lead them away from the Seven Kingdoms;
  Bran the Rebuilder renews the wall after Jon leads the New Dead beyond it.

Bronn still wants his castle. Jaime says he'll have it as soon as he defeats marauders from the Iron Islands.

***
Watching via HBO Now on laptop.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on April 23, 2019, 01:43:39 PM
I'm more and more thinking that the NK will skip Winterfell altogether and instead go straight to KL where he can make an even larger army (they specifically talked about the population of KL in one of the later S7 episodes). This would allow the assembled Avengers characters in WF to win the battle, but then learn from Bronn (who is travelling north on foot) where the NK went with wight Viserion and Bran would then confirm what happens via The Weirnet. This would setup an inverse-seige, similar to the last stand in Return of the King where they drew out Sauron's armies to allow Frodo and Sam to cross Mordor unhindered. It also simplifies the need for 2 discrete wars (living vs. dead and living(-Cercei) vs Cercei), instead transitioning to a large skirmish followed by a final showdown against the same enemy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 23, 2019, 01:48:53 PM
I'm more and more thinking that the NK will skip Winterfell altogether and instead go straight to KL where he can make an even larger army (they specifically talked about the population of KL in one of the later S7 episodes). This would allow the assembled Avengers characters in WF to win the battle, but then learn from Bronn (who is travelling north on foot) where the NK went with wight Viserion and Bran would then confirm what happens via Greensight. This would setup an inverse-seige, similar to the last stand in Return of the King where they drew out Sauron's armies to allow Frodo and Sam to cross Mordor unhindered. It also simplifies the need for 2 discrete wars (living vs. dead and living-Cercei vs Cercei), instead transitioning to a large skirmish followed by a final showdown against the same enemy.

I do like that, especially the "the need for 2 discrete wars" point. It would extend the tension for 3 straight episodes and drive the stakes up higher with the climax in Episode 5!

Because beating the NK IS the climax. So if you beat him in Episode 3, you've "saved humanity" already. Beating up on a queen and her outmanned forces would be a letdown after that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Noodle on April 23, 2019, 02:11:43 PM
I'm more and more thinking that the NK will skip Winterfell altogether and instead go straight to KL where he can make an even larger army (they specifically talked about the population of KL in one of the later S7 episodes). This would allow the assembled Avengers characters in WF to win the battle, but then learn from Bronn (who is travelling north on foot) where the NK went with wight Viserion and Bran would then confirm what happens via Greensight. This would setup an inverse-seige, similar to the last stand in Return of the King where they drew out Sauron's armies to allow Frodo and Sam to cross Mordor unhindered. It also simplifies the need for 2 discrete wars (living vs. dead and living-Cercei vs Cercei), instead transitioning to a large skirmish followed by a final showdown against the same enemy.

I do like that, especially the "the need for 2 discrete wars" point. It would extend the tension for 3 straight episodes and drive the stakes up higher with the climax in Episode 5!

Because beating the NK IS the climax. So if you beat him in Episode 3, you've "saved humanity" already. Beating up on a queen and her outmanned forces would be a letdown after that.

Ooh, good point! We know that at least some of the NK's army goes to Winterfell, given that they arrive just before the end of Episode 2, but we don't really know how close he has to be to his forces to command them. So he might very well send some South (especially given that the countryside is emptied out by people fleeing or getting zombified, word might not spread fast) while another part of his forces are at Winterfell keeping them busy or trying to pick off Bran. Since the NK has a dragon, he could easily catch up with his second army once Winterfell is pacified. And wasn't there some comment about a more southern ally of the Starks (the Tullys, or someone like that) who refused to pitch in at Winterfell? That would be very Game of Thrones for them to get wiped off the map by a second NK army...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 23, 2019, 02:21:33 PM
I'm more and more thinking that the NK will skip Winterfell altogether and instead go straight to KL where he can make an even larger army (they specifically talked about the population of KL in one of the later S7 episodes). This would allow the assembled Avengers characters in WF to win the battle, but then learn from Bronn (who is travelling north on foot) where the NK went with wight Viserion and Bran would then confirm what happens via Greensight. This would setup an inverse-seige, similar to the last stand in Return of the King where they drew out Sauron's armies to allow Frodo and Sam to cross Mordor unhindered. It also simplifies the need for 2 discrete wars (living vs. dead and living-Cercei vs Cercei), instead transitioning to a large skirmish followed by a final showdown against the same enemy.

I do like that, especially the "the need for 2 discrete wars" point. It would extend the tension for 3 straight episodes and drive the stakes up higher with the climax in Episode 5!

Because beating the NK IS the climax. So if you beat him in Episode 3, you've "saved humanity" already. Beating up on a queen and her outmanned forces would be a letdown after that.

Ooh, good point! We know that at least some of the NK's army goes to Winterfell, given that they arrive just before the end of Episode 2, but we don't really know how close he has to be to his forces to command them. So he might very well send some South (especially given that the countryside is emptied out by people fleeing or getting zombified, word might not spread fast) while another part of his forces are at Winterfell keeping them busy or trying to pick off Bran. Since the NK has a dragon, he could easily catch up with his second army once Winterfell is pacified. And wasn't there some comment about a more southern ally of the Starks (the Tullys, or someone like that) who refused to pitch in at Winterfell? That would be very Game of Thrones for them to get wiped off the map by a second NK army...

Yeah, this is interesting. At the end of the last episode, I was like, "Where the hell's the NK and the ice dragon?" The Winterfell contingent's strategy is to kill him, but... I'm thinking you're right he's not going to come there yet. So whatever happens, I'm thinking Philociraptor is right that he's not headed there yet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on April 23, 2019, 04:26:33 PM
And wasn't there some comment about a more southern ally of the Starks (the Tullys, or someone like that) who refused to pitch in at Winterfell? That would be very Game of Thrones for them to get wiped off the map by a second NK army...
I don't know if you mean House Glover from Deepwood Motte.  They're in the North and actually a little bit north of Winterfell.  After Jon bent the knee last season Robett took his forces home (after getting scolded by Lyanna Mormont and then apologizing to Jon after not fighting with the Starks in the BotB).  Aside from the Umbers (RIP), I'm not sure anyone else has refused to pitch in at Winterfell, at least from the North.

Edmure Tully could factor in possibly but doubtful (doesn't command any forces), it was a little surprising we didn't see him in the S7 opener after his niece killed all the Freys at the Twins where he was being held prisoner.

I'm trying to think of other southern allies but none come to mind unless you want to count Hot Pie! :-)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jon_Snow on April 23, 2019, 06:09:19 PM
I'm more and more thinking that the NK will skip Winterfell altogether and instead go straight to KL where he can make an even larger army (they specifically talked about the population of KL in one of the later S7 episodes)...

Okay. I have pretty much abandoned any attempt to predict what is going to happen, but would rather just let the conclusion wash over me, whatever it may be, for good or ill.

But THAT...is a bloody brilliant theory. Makes sense on so many levels and I believe it would allow for a somewhat satisfying conclusion...with a mere 4 EPISODES LEFT! *sniff*
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: bacchi on April 23, 2019, 08:55:55 PM
I like the NK marching to King's Landing theory too but he's going after Bran so Bran has to be whisked away via dragon at some point.

There was foreshadowing when Tyrion mentioned that he likely won't be King's Hand when it's all over. Tyrion will die.

Similarly, what Sam told Jorah when he gave him his sword is also important. Sam will die.

Sandor has to stick around. He's going to finally take revenge on his brother.

Grey Worm and Missandei will make it back to the beaches.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: redbirdfan on April 24, 2019, 11:43:47 PM
I love all the theories.  I'm going to enjoy watching the show in real time so I'll be avoiding spoilers and leaks like the plague. I'm surprised that Howland and Meera Reed haven't made an appearance.  Howland could at least confirm Jon's parentage (i.e not Jon's 'brother' and best friend).  It seems like the Citadel should have heard that an army of the dead was marching south and followed Sam's advice to figure out a strategy? I would think Melisandre (the Red Woman) would/should play an important role in this battle.  She told Varys that they were both fated to die in Westeros so I don't think they survive the season.  This last episode just confirmed that the Battle of Winterfell is going to hurt.  I considered Theon expendable until I saw Sansa's reaction to him.  At this point I'm bracing myself for the inevitable heartbreak. 

My attempt at a prediction is that the Hound will die and Arya will kill the Mountain using his face.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on April 25, 2019, 12:58:38 AM
I'm more and more thinking that the NK will skip Winterfell altogether and instead go straight to KL where he can make an even larger army (they specifically talked about the population of KL in one of the later S7 episodes)...

Okay. I have pretty much abandoned any attempt to predict what is going to happen, but would rather just let the conclusion wash over me, whatever it may be, for good or ill.

But THAT...is a bloody brilliant theory. Makes sense on so many levels and I believe it would allow for a somewhat satisfying conclusion...with a mere 4 EPISODES LEFT! *sniff*

Normally I would point out that it would require a couple weeks to walk from Winterfell to Kings Landing (assuming never stopping to sleep), but the showrunners threw traveling continuity out the window 3 seasons ago.  Now you can walk, ride or sail a circle around the continent in the space of a few days.

I loved this episode, but as a Youtube reviewer carefully pointed out, the entire opening scene with Jamie is revisionist bullshit.  Nobody is remembering their history correctly. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jouer on April 25, 2019, 10:49:55 AM
I think the living are going to get the shit kicked out of them in the massive battle of Ep. 3. Many of our favourite characters will die. Those that survive will do so by making their way to water and regrouping at the Iron Islands. There's been so much made of the white walkers not being able to swim that the Iron Islands must play a part in this somehow.

Then the final-final battle against the white walkers will happen in Kings Landing. This will be episode 5, I suspect.

Aside: If any dead folks in the crypts are arisen by the night king, I'll be very disappointed. It seems so obvious to everyone watching - I thought of it during season 7 - that having the characters not think of it would be showing how stupid they are. I can't have myself cheering for anyone that stupid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on April 25, 2019, 11:24:14 AM
I LOVE this thread and all the possibilities here that I wouldn't have thought of on my own.  Makes me anticipate the next installment even more.

I think the episode next week, after having us watch many folks we care about struggle and die in a grueling battle, will climax in the weirwood where the Night King finally confronts Bran and the remaining few leads.  Having wondered since Sunday where Melisandre is and just reading a credible theory of how she could already be inside Winterfell, I think she makes her final appearance to help Bran win, likely involving her own death.  But the actual battle with the living and the Night King will be in the majority of the following episode.

But before that happens, anyone have any intel or theory on the iconography we saw back Last Hearth --- that spiral sun design?  It seems like it must be quite important for the Night King's army to have spent that time and effort on but I can't think what it could mean.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on April 25, 2019, 12:50:53 PM
But before that happens, anyone have any intel or theory on the iconography we saw back Last Hearth --- that spiral sun design?  It seems like it must be quite important for the Night King's army to have spent that time and effort on but I can't think what it could mean.

It's a perversion of the stone layout around the weirwood tree where the Children of the Forest created the first White Walker, kinda like a twisted calling card (said the guy who plays the Night King in an interview).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Wilson Hall on April 25, 2019, 02:41:29 PM
My predictions after these first two episodes:

Jon will die, again, during or just after the great battle but Dany is pregnant with their child

...

Dany, finding the Iron Throne turned to slag by the fire, returns north to Winterfell to rule from there and raise Jon's child.  Sansa is keeping a close eye on her as the madness that took her grandfather seems to be coming for her.  Arya, pregnant with Robert Baratheon's grandchild, is Dany's hand.  The wheel is set for another round of fights for the Seven Kingdoms with the heirs to the Targareon, Baratheon, and Starks (through Sansa) still around.

This has to be my favorite set of predictions thus far. What about House Lannister? Cersei was told about the death of her children, but as someone mentioned upthread, Maggy's prediction was in one of the books, not the series. What are the odds that Cersei would flee KL, go into hiding, and survive long enough to give birth? If this doesn't happen, might Jaime or Tyrion live long enough to father the last scion of the Lannister dynasty?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on April 25, 2019, 02:48:39 PM
But before that happens, anyone have any intel or theory on the iconography we saw back Last Hearth --- that spiral sun design?  It seems like it must be quite important for the Night King's army to have spent that time and effort on but I can't think what it could mean.

It's a perversion of the stone layout around the weirwood tree where the Children of the Forest created the first White Walker, kinda like a twisted calling card (said the guy who plays the Night King in an interview).
Agreed, same pattern used in S3 at the Fist of the First Men I think when Mance said, "Always the artists."  However, the pilot episode had a different pattern altogether - a circle with a single line through the middle that extends on one side (kinda looked like a tree?? but hard to make out).  I'm not sure if there are multiple patterns that mean different things or if they just abandoned that and are just going with the spiral now - which is definitely from the CotF reveal in S6.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on April 25, 2019, 03:13:27 PM
This has to be my favorite set of predictions thus far. What about House Lannister? Cersei was told about the death of her children, but as someone mentioned upthread, Maggy's prediction was in one of the books, not the series. What are the odds that Cersei would flee KL, go into hiding, and survive long enough to give birth? If this doesn't happen, might Jaime or Tyrion live long enough to father the last scion of the Lannister dynasty?

Pretty sure Jaime told Tyrion that he thinks Cersei lied about the baby so that's a dead end for their house.  Unless her new boy toy Euron does as he promised and gets her "with a prince".  We've lost a few houses in these wars and will likely lose a number more before it's done.  All of them if they don't stop the Night King, of course.

I truly think the only one who MIGHT make it from House Lannister is Tyrion and he's becoming so broken that after losing the remaining ones of his family, he probably won't have a life that would include kids of his own.  I'm pretty sure there was an episode that mentioned the prophecy Maggy gave Cersei but it was a long, long way back, maybe pre-Joffrey death so I've always expected Tyrion to be the one to do her in (though someone else pointed out that Jaime is also her younger brother by minutes).  The only twist would be him doing it out of mercy instead of hate like she's shown him his whole life.

I don't know the whole Westeros history but this bloody Iron Throne is seeming a bit cursed, isn't it?  Mad King - dead by Jaime to save the people of Kings Landing.  Robert Baratheon - dead by Cersei's machincations.  Joffrey - dead and deservedly so.  Cersei is getting less and less human the longer she sits on it and lots of us are predicting her death before it's all over.  I'd love for it to be destroyed so Dany never sits on it but then, it's the power of the king/queen-ship and the struggle to keep it that's really corrupting so physical throne or no, Dany's in danger of becoming the next "mad" ruler.

Thanks @simonsez and @Wilson Hall and @Philociraptor for the info on the patterns.  I found a link on another site (https://decider.com/2019/04/15/game-of-thrones-white-walkers-spiral-symbols-meaning/ (https://decider.com/2019/04/15/game-of-thrones-white-walkers-spiral-symbols-meaning/)) that did cover some of the iconography that had been puzzling me.  Having clues spread out over the years makes it hard to pull all the threads together.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 25, 2019, 03:38:59 PM
This has to be my favorite set of predictions thus far. What about House Lannister? Cersei was told about the death of her children, but as someone mentioned upthread, Maggy's prediction was in one of the books, not the series. What are the odds that Cersei would flee KL, go into hiding, and survive long enough to give birth? If this doesn't happen, might Jaime or Tyrion live long enough to father the last scion of the Lannister dynasty?

Pretty sure Jaime told Tyrion that he thinks Cersei lied about the baby so that's a dead end for their house. Unless her new boy toy Euron does as he promised and gets her "with a prince".  We've lost a few houses in these wars and will likely lose a number more before it's done.  All of them if they don't stop the Night King, of course.

I truly think the only one who MIGHT make it from House Lannister is Tyrion and he's becoming so broken that after losing the remaining ones of his family, he probably won't have a life that would include kids of his own.  I'm pretty sure there was an episode that mentioned the prophecy Maggy gave Cersei but it was a long, long way back, maybe pre-Joffrey death so I've always expected Tyrion to be the one to do her in (though someone else pointed out that Jaime is also her younger brother by minutes).  The only twist would be him doing it out of mercy instead of hate like she's shown him his whole life.

I don't know the whole Westeros history but this bloody Iron Throne is seeming a bit cursed, isn't it?  Mad King - dead by Jaime to save the people of Kings Landing.  Robert Baratheon - dead by Cersei's machincations.  Joffrey - dead and deservedly so.  Cersei is getting less and less human the longer she sits on it and lots of us are predicting her death before it's all over.  I'd love for it to be destroyed so Dany never sits on it but then, it's the power of the king/queen-ship and the struggle to keep it that's really corrupting so physical throne or no, Dany's in danger of becoming the next "mad" ruler.

Thanks @simonsez and @Wilson Hall and @Philociraptor for the info on the patterns.  I found a link on another site (https://decider.com/2019/04/15/game-of-thrones-white-walkers-spiral-symbols-meaning/ (https://decider.com/2019/04/15/game-of-thrones-white-walkers-spiral-symbols-meaning/)) that did cover some of the iconography that had been puzzling me.  Having clues spread out over the years makes it hard to pull all the threads together.

No, he told Tyrion that part was real -- that she is indeed pregnant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on April 25, 2019, 03:47:03 PM
Here's my prediction: 

The battle for Iron throne is small potatoes compared to defeating the Night King.  We're only coming up on Episode 3, so I think the Night King needs to remain in the picture for a while longer.  So....

The Night King wins at Winterfell!  But emerges greatly weakened.   The survivors fall back, but now Cersei realizes that she is that last thing between humanity and the Night King (and her goal of ruling the Seven Kingdoms) and she must mobilize the Golden Company and the Iron Fleet against the Night King.

There is another epic battle, where the Cersei-led forces emerge victorious, and then the battle for the Iron Throne begins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on April 25, 2019, 05:54:06 PM
This has to be my favorite set of predictions thus far. What about House Lannister? Cersei was told about the death of her children, but as someone mentioned upthread, Maggy's prediction was in one of the books, not the series...

...I'm pretty sure there was an episode that mentioned the prophecy Maggy gave Cersei...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6kQJ9HPpQ4
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: bacchi on April 25, 2019, 08:08:22 PM
I considered Theon expendable until I saw Sansa's reaction to him.

Yeah, I thought Theon was a goner too but Sansa really missed him (and forgave him). He has more atonement to do but it could be gained by defending bran.
 
Quote
My attempt at a prediction is that the Hound will die and Arya will kill the Mountain using his face.

Yes, and it fulfills (book) prophecy too. Does Arya gain stature, though, when she takes a face? It won't fool anyone if the Hound has shrunk to 5'0".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on April 25, 2019, 09:31:59 PM
This has to be my favorite set of predictions thus far. What about House Lannister? Cersei was told about the death of her children, but as someone mentioned upthread, Maggy's prediction was in one of the books, not the series...

...I'm pretty sure there was an episode that mentioned the prophecy Maggy gave Cersei...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6kQJ9HPpQ4
Valonqar is book-only, no mention of that part on show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Psychstache on April 25, 2019, 10:16:51 PM
I don't know the whole Westeros history but this bloody Iron Throne is seeming a bit cursed, isn't it?  Mad King - dead by Jaime to save the people of Kings Landing.  Robert Baratheon - dead by Cersei's machincations.  Joffrey - dead and deservedly so.  Cersei is getting less and less human the longer she sits on it and lots of us are predicting her death before it's all over.  I'd love for it to be destroyed so Dany never sits on it but then, it's the power of the king/queen-ship and the struggle to keep it that's really corrupting so physical throne or no, Dany's in danger of becoming the next "mad" ruler.

Iirc, in the books there was mention of a past king who was literally killed by the Iron Throne. Accidently impaled on one of the swords.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on April 25, 2019, 10:33:33 PM
And did anyone else notice the Ghost cameo?

And well done Arya and Gendry.
Yeah, Ghost looked small and had no interactions.  Wish they could've done a little more there but ah well, great episode.  The audience knows a lot of information at this point and am glad they can imply things we already know without having to spell it out between every character that was previously in the dark about something.  e.g. Jon saying his mother died giving birth with all the bloody details didn't come from Sam, obviously he has chatted in depth with Bran about things even though they haven't shown Bran talking with anyone except Tyrion this past ep.

Glad Ned and Robert finally "joined their houses", especially since Joff didn't even have his DNA. ;-) 

I'm betting something is going to occur next ep that doesn't bring a conclusion to the White Walkers.  I mean, they were the real threat in the pilot episode and their mythology and background has been teased - would be a letdown if they get wiped out in a single episode and it's back to humans squabbling with other humans. 

Spoiler: show

I'm prepared to say goodbye to Tormund, Jorah, Beric, Theon, and Grey Worm next ep - should be brutal! Pod, Davos, Gendry, and Sandor are quite possible, too.

In the preview for next week it looked like Jon drawing his sword in the godswood, presumably to take on the NK after Theon has just died protecting Bran if I had to guess.  I don't think it ends there.  Something either with the crypts (seriously, they mentioned the crypts too often and with the book foreshadowing of the statues seeming to watch passerbys and Robb and Jon's dreams, I feel like something supernatural will happen down there), Bran, dragon-riding, Jon/Daeny, or some combo will create a diversion.  We know Bran is the NK target, if he gets whisked away by Jon or Daeny on a dragon to KL or somewhere south with the NK in tow - does that save Winterfell (since the wights raised by NK would follow) and hold off the White Walker question until the finale? 


Spoiler: show
I fully expect the night king will resurrect the bones of all the dead starks resting in the crypts, who will kill off a bunch of the innocents hiding there.


Dammit, my husband said the same thing.  I don't want it to be true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Great episode (which we had to watch a few days late).  I've been waiting for these kind of scenes for soooo long.  Also, I have fully expected Grey Worm to die SO MANY times before, so you'd think I'd be fully emotionally prepared going into this battle...but I felt stupidly weepy every time he was onscreen. Who knew I'd get so attached?  Damn you, show. ETA: Obv knighting Brienne was great, but I was also surprised how I welled up at Theon's scene.  That little asshole has come a long way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 26, 2019, 07:24:59 AM
Quote
I actually don't think Jaime is on the chopping block in this battle,

He and Tyrion are safe for now since they aren't going to waste the setup with Bronn from Ep. 1

I think Jaime could be killed. It would really isolate Cersei even more. The last person she cares about killed. Then it’s Cersei v the world. They’d still have Bron v Tyrion to play with. That would be an interesting scene.

I think there will be quite a few deaths. Beric for sure. Maybe Davos. Gilly and little Sam to be turned to Whitewalkers, and little Sam to attack Sam - that’d be stuff of nightmares. I am interested to see what happens with Sansa. They can’t really kill her off yet after setting up the tension with Dany. So she survives. No idea about Arya. Maybe killed trying to save the Hound. The Houmd has to survive. Surely there will be Clegane bowl. Jon and Dany definitely both survive I’d say.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: boy_bye on April 26, 2019, 11:02:15 AM
Great episode (which we had to watch a few days late).  I've been waiting for these kind of scenes for soooo long.  Also, I have fully expected Grey Worm to die SO MANY times before, so you'd think I'd be fully emotionally prepared going into this battle...but I felt stupidly weepy every time he was onscreen. Who knew I'd get so attached?  Damn you, show. ETA: Obv knighting Brienne was great, but I was also surprised how I welled up at Theon's scene.  That little asshole has come a long way.

Hahahahah that was EXACTLY my reaction to Theon's return. I was like, damn, I have been over his shit for so long, why is there water welling up in my eyes???
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on April 26, 2019, 09:05:57 PM
I don't know the whole Westeros history but this bloody Iron Throne is seeming a bit cursed, isn't it?  Mad King - dead by Jaime to save the people of Kings Landing.  Robert Baratheon - dead by Cersei's machincations.  Joffrey - dead and deservedly so.  Cersei is getting less and less human the longer she sits on it and lots of us are predicting her death before it's all over.  I'd love for it to be destroyed so Dany never sits on it but then, it's the power of the king/queen-ship and the struggle to keep it that's really corrupting so physical throne or no, Dany's in danger of becoming the next "mad" ruler.

Iirc, in the books there was mention of a past king who was literally killed by the Iron Throne. Accidently impaled on one of the swords.

Not impaled, but nicked and cut enough to die from infection. In the books the throne is described as not just a chair with swords sticking out of the back, but rather having sharp or incomplete edges all over the place.  Aegon's philosophy was that nobody should sit comfortably on so important of a seat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on April 26, 2019, 11:15:53 PM
A little gem.

https://youtu.be/jsYAYXeVtoM
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: redbirdfan on April 27, 2019, 01:31:10 PM
Quote
Does Arya gain stature, though, when she takes a face? It won't fool anyone if the Hound has shrunk to 5'0".

I believe so.  No one seemed to think anything was off when she took out House Frey.  The magic that allows her to change faces must somehow allow a complete physical transformation. 

I really don't trust Varys right now.  I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to take Dany out bc he thinks Jon would be better "for the realm".  We had a lot of feel good moments from the main characters last episode and Varys was barely in the show.  He hasn't seemed to trust Dany ever since she fried the Tarlys.  It probably wouldn't take much to convince him that Dany was beginning to exhibit "Mad Queen" tendencies. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: doggyfizzle on April 27, 2019, 03:58:50 PM
Quote
Does Arya gain stature, though, when she takes a face? It won't fool anyone if the Hound has shrunk to 5'0".

I believe so.  No one seemed to think anything was off when she took out House Frey.  The magic that allows her to change faces must somehow allow a complete physical transformation. 

Does Arya have to kill the person to assume their face?  I don’t have much in the way of ideas on how it ends (because my favorite characters from the book - Dorne - kind of seem to have been left out and I would have figured they would be important to Dany and Jon somehow as loyal to the Targaryens), but I think Arya will kill Cersei using Jamie’s face after he dies in battle somehow.  Thus, The prophecies surroundings Cersei’s death (killed by younger sibling, someone “more beautiful”) will be fulfilled.  I’m also a bit annoyed at the lack of involvement of the Iron Bank and citizens of Essos, since so much wealth has been tied up in keeping the Lannister’s in power in Kings Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 28, 2019, 08:28:57 PM
OMFG.

I’m gonna need therapy after that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on April 28, 2019, 09:55:12 PM
I pretty much called the deaths...actually, I slightly overestimated the body count for this ep.  And I thought I was ready for this whole shebang to be over, but now that characters are dying I realize I'm not really.  Nope. Really not ready.   Great moment for Sansa and Tyrion...both actors giving their all with no dialogue. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Longwaytogo on April 28, 2019, 10:29:52 PM
Looks like I chose an appropriate night to break out the White Walker special edition!!

What a freaking episode, so GOOOOOD.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on April 29, 2019, 06:32:34 AM
Not gonna lie, that episode upset me. Not because of deaths, but because of lazy writing. And I know they may have been forced into some plots due to time constants and other factors, but there were just so many issues with the episode... I sure hope there's a book announcement soon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 29, 2019, 07:04:24 AM
I'm also more than a little disappointed. It just feels like everything that happens in the next 3 episodes is more just the resolution instead of the climax. But maybe the writers will prove me wrong! I hope they do! I guess we'll see how decimated the good guys' forces are (look to be pretty damn decimated). How do they even have an army left? (no Dothraki, at least 50% of the Unsullied had to die, probably more. That leaves Northerners and Wildlings (fighting not for their home anymore, but for this Dragon Queen? really?)

I still give it a 7.5/10 for the cool visuals (Dothraki flaming swords going out; damn that was an AWESOME scene), the Ayra scene (no, not THAT scene, but the scene where she's hiding from the wraiths in the library; that was TENSE), and the Night King raising allllllllll the dead like 2/3 into the battle, thus making the insurmountable odds even more insurmountable.

But it was a shame that so much of it was so hard to see. I mean, the Battle of Helms Deep took place at night too, but we could make out what was going on. With all the fire and snowstorms and the darkness, oh the darkness!, I think it all actually lessened the tension as opposed to heightening it. I couldn't get too nervous for Jamie and Brienne and Tormund and others because I couldn't f'ing see what they were doing most of the time.

MVP: I could say Arya, but that would be too easy. So, I say Melisandre! She...

1) flamed up the Dothraki! (didn't help)
2) flamed up the barrier! (this did help! bought them a bit of time!)
3) reminded Arya of what she needed to do (sort of important!)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on April 29, 2019, 07:45:32 AM
Not gonna lie, that episode upset me. Not because of deaths, but because of lazy writing. And I know they may have been forced into some plots due to time constants and other factors, but there were just so many issues with the episode... I sure hope there's a book announcement soon.

I really enjoyed the episode.  The tension and the cinematics were great.  A very fun watch.  It was also sad that we essentially watched the end of the Dothraki.

But yes, looking back on it there are many convenient survivals (the dead can swarm and almost take down a dragon, but a knight backed into a corner with a sword can fight them off....).  One of the reasons I love GoT is they have tried to avoid this, but it's a TV show.  And this episode was entertaining if you avoid thinking too hard about it.

I figured the crypts would have played a more pivotal or symbolic role.  I was wrong on that front, no magic stark powers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on April 29, 2019, 07:58:03 AM
But it was a shame that so much of it was so hard to see. I mean, the Battle of Helms Deep took place at night too, but we could make out what was going on. With all the fire and snowstorms and the darkness, oh the darkness!, I think it all actually lessened the tension as opposed to heightening it. I couldn't get too nervous for Jamie and Brienne and Tormund and others because I couldn't f'ing see what they were doing most of the time.

I felt like I was able to see just fine, although my TV really struggled to keep the picture right.  The brightness seemed to be flickering from dark to light constantly without the scene even changing.  My TV is from 2007 so I don't have high expectations with my 720p 60hz refresh rate.

I didn't really notice it once the fighting started, but the calm and dark scenes before the fighting started really had me wondering if something was wrong with my TV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on April 29, 2019, 09:43:12 AM
I actually thought the frequent dark was a decent choice. It conveyed that part of the battle's difficulty is, it's just so hard to see. We felt as the characters did, lost and confused by not being able to see what's going on.

Agree re Melisandre. She really came through.

Not sure whether the writing was lazy, but definitely noticed that Arya's final blow against the Night King echoed her movements in her original meet/challenge of Brienne from when she took Brienne as her sparring partner at Winterfell earlier in the series. More broadly, she's always practiced shifty use of small blades as her technique for fighting larger powerful opponents.

I did feel there's been enough tension within and between various story lines, plus enough mystery in general, that when the battle resolved in a manner that could almost reasonably be imagined, it was almost disappointing.

One thing I liked though was the Theon-and-Arya combo. It seemed that in and of itself, Theon's courageous final charge was a useless failure, like many of the hapless attempts that formed his story. But by giving just enough time and distraction for Arya to approach, he enabled her to save the day. (Well, the night.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jon_Snow on April 29, 2019, 10:08:10 AM
It's very tough for me to be overly critical. It's a miracle that we are getting something like this on television at all. Sure, the show runners could have made some different choices (less shaky cam, more lighting)...but considering the constraints they are working under - limited episodes to work with, and a lazy author who is providing the source material - I found it fairly incredible overall.

I watched this with my DW in Mexico via Slingbox (allowing us to mirror our home TV 3000km to the north), so the picture quality wasn't ideal, making it even harder to pick out details in an already darkly lit episode. Once we get back north, I cannot wait to watch this on our home HDTV.

My DW and I went for a run this morning, and while running I coughed and my chewing gum went flying out of my mouth....but in Arya-like fashion with the dragonglass dagger, my hand darted out and I caught the gum and popped it back in my mouth. It was a delightfully nerdy/athletic moment for me. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on April 29, 2019, 02:28:45 PM
It's very tough for me to be overly critical. It's a miracle that we are getting something like this on television at all. Sure, the show runners could have made some different choices (less shaky cam, more lighting)...but considering the constraints they are working under - limited episodes to work with, and a lazy author who is providing the source material - I found it fairly incredible overall.
I'm sorry you find that 70 year old who is a multiple Hugo, Nebula award winner for things besides strictly dealing with the world of Planetos, who takes an active role in local art, attends conventions, maintains a blog, and generally does whatever he wants - to be lazy on a forum that generally celebrates doing whatever you want when FI.

To invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch.  Even if George Martin call himself lazy (no idea how he identifies with his position on the industriousness continuum), I don't see the connection to the enjoyment of last night's episode or how this season is wrapping.  It seems like an unnecessary ad hominem.

The miracle of GoT being on HBO happened....more than a decade ago (2007).  The books were not finished then (5th wasn't even out and 4th had only just come out) and they still went ahead to greenlight production and figured at worst they had the outline for the later seasons.  This was always a risk and IMO, not only increasingly irrelevant but a good thing.  The show smartly started diverging more from the books fairly early on and I'm not sure even if we had more ASOIAF output at this point that it would alter what we viewed/are viewing this season.  The moaning is already loud enough from the book purists clamoring for more explanations and the lack of prophecies on the show with how it all went down in the godswood* but the show has purposely avoided bogging itself down with all the richness that the books provide as a way to tell the general story in 73 episodes.  I do pity those that are so distracted by the connection to the books that are really moot at this point as it detracts from their enjoyment of the best production value to ever grace television.

* Like if you want to point out it's weird, even given Arya's stealth ability (as proved multiple times throughout the show and even last night when the Filch's where trying to catch a student wearing Ignotus Peverell's cloak out of bed in the restricted section of the library) to get to that point past all the other wights and useless WW lieutenants and 'jump' out of nowhwere, that's more of a legitimate qualm IMO than boohooing the choice of Arya as the assassin because of some prophecy in the books that isn't even mentioned on the show.  Anyway, I digress.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on April 29, 2019, 02:41:40 PM
Game of Thrones is one of the rare instances where the book was much worse than the television show.  I watched the first season on HBO and then slogged through books 1 - 3.  George Martin is a terrible writer.  His ideas and plot are fine, but the actual quality of his writing was continuously making me wince.  I'm quite happy that the TV people will do the ending of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on April 29, 2019, 09:42:43 PM
Quote
invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch. 

Can we, like, not? Just once? Both of you?

I'm as tired as anyone of entitled dolts moaning for the next book but at this point I'm *almost* as sick of sanctimonious "good" fans rushing to quote Gaiman in his defense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on April 29, 2019, 09:44:14 PM
Quote
invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch. 

Can we, like, not? Just once? Both of you?

I'm as tired as anyone of entitled dolts moaning for the next book but at this point I'm *almost* as sick of sanctimonious "good" fans rushing to quote Gaiman in his defense.

God, yes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on April 29, 2019, 11:59:18 PM
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: itchyfeet on April 30, 2019, 03:10:16 AM
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.

Yep everyone is dead except the main characters who can’t die no matter how much they try.

I feel a bit torn about the episode. I was definitely on the edge of my seat for the whole 90 mins, as as a stand-alone piece it was epic and great entertainment.

But, on the other hand, as a long time reader/ viewer I am left a little underwhelmed. This was the Great War, the climax of the whole shebang, and most of the main characters were impotent.

Jon useless, Sam useless (true to character for a battle, but hoped he’d use his smarts some way), Dany useless (maybe slightly less than Jon), Tyrion useless, Sansa useless, Davos useless..... and what was Bram even doing the whole show.

But maybe that was the whole point. In the face of the hordes of the undead there was nothing anyone could do, except Arya.

Like many others, I would have loved to have seen some of the fan theories as being correct.

I wanted to be more shocked eg: little Sam killed and turned, attacking Sam.. or A blue eyed Grey worm attacking Missendai. And I would have liked to have seen a least one of the white walkers killed so that there would have been a whole section of the army of the dead turn to dust. And I would have like more main characters to have been killed.

But, that all said, I really enjoyed the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 30, 2019, 06:00:43 AM
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.

Yep everyone is dead except the main characters who can’t die no matter how much they try.

I feel a bit torn about the episode. I was definitely on the edge of my seat for the whole 90 mins, as as a stand-alone piece it was epic and great entertainment.

But, on the other hand, as a long time reader/ viewer I am left a little underwhelmed. This was the Great War, the climax of the whole shebang, and most of the main characters were impotent.

Jon useless, Sam useless (true to character for a battle, but hoped he’d use his smarts some way), Dany useless (maybe slightly less than Jon), Tyrion useless, Sansa useless, Davos useless..... and what was Bram even doing the whole show.

But maybe that was the whole point. In the face of the hordes of the undead there was nothing anyone could do, except Arya.

Like many others, I would have loved to have seen some of the fan theories as being correct.

I wanted to be more shocked eg: little Sam killed and turned, attacking Sam.. or A blue eyed Grey worm attacking Missendai. And I would have liked to have seen a least one of the white walkers killed so that there would have been a whole section of the army of the dead turn to dust. And I would have like more main characters to have been killed.

But, that all said, I really enjoyed the episode.

I agree with you for the most part. But I’m trying to not let myself get mired in should’ves and enjoy the final season as it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 30, 2019, 06:59:40 AM
My predictions after these first two episodes:

Jon will die, again, during or just after the great battle but Dany is pregnant with their child

Jamie will survive but with a grievous wound that will not allow him to live long but insists on joining the army as it moves south against his sister.  Brienne cares for him until his death.

Bran will indeed be the key to killing the Night King (love the idea of him warging into the ice dragon!), surviving but being less human than he is now and will retreat north? to seek refuge away from humanity

Cersei, seeing Dany approaching with her one remaining dragon and seeing her people flee her side to join with Dany, burns the Red Keep with wildfire as soon as Dany's army gets inside the city walls

Bronn kills the remaining dragon but that doesn't stop Kings Landing from being overrun/taken back by the Targareon forces

Tyrion, handed the crossbow by Bronn, kills his sister in mercy to keep her from dying in the fire or to finish her off as she lays dying of burns.  He tells Jamie what he did and why before Jamie dies from his wounds

Dany, finding the Iron Throne turned to slag by the fire, returns north to Winterfell to rule from there and raise Jon's child.  Sansa is keeping a close eye on her as the madness that took her grandfather seems to be coming for her.  Arya, pregnant with Robert Baratheon's grandchild, is Dany's hand.  The wheel is set for another round of fights for the Seven Kingdoms with the heirs to the Targareon, Baratheon, and Starks (through Sansa) still around.

Halfway through the final season, I am now even more obsessed with a theory like this! I love how you think, because "resetting the chess board for another cycle of power plays and violence" would be the perfect ending, IMO. Not sure we'll get it, but I would love it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 30, 2019, 07:06:31 AM
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but it’s undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on April 30, 2019, 07:22:54 AM
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but it’s undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

The dead were rushing the walls and one of the main characters shouted out, from the ground inside the castle, "Man the walls!" and I was like, "...What? They aren't manned already?"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on April 30, 2019, 09:05:19 AM
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but it’s undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

The dead were rushing the walls and one of the main characters shouted out, from the ground inside the castle, "Man the walls!" and I was like, "...What? They aren't manned already?"

Exactly. That was effing ridiculous.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on April 30, 2019, 09:07:45 AM
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.

Yep everyone is dead except the main characters who can’t die no matter how much they try.

I feel a bit torn about the episode. I was definitely on the edge of my seat for the whole 90 mins, as as a stand-alone piece it was epic and great entertainment.

But, on the other hand, as a long time reader/ viewer I am left a little underwhelmed. This was the Great War, the climax of the whole shebang, and most of the main characters were impotent.

Jon useless, Sam useless (true to character for a battle, but hoped he’d use his smarts some way), Dany useless (maybe slightly less than Jon), Tyrion useless, Sansa useless, Davos useless..... and what was Bram even doing the whole show.

But maybe that was the whole point. In the face of the hordes of the undead there was nothing anyone could do, except Arya.

Like many others, I would have loved to have seen some of the fan theories as being correct.

I wanted to be more shocked eg: little Sam killed and turned, attacking Sam.. or A blue eyed Grey worm attacking Missendai. And I would have liked to have seen a least one of the white walkers killed so that there would have been a whole section of the army of the dead turn to dust. And I would have like more main characters to have been killed.

But, that all said, I really enjoyed the episode.
Pretty much how I felt (and I am okay with characters feeling useless in the face of Death) - would've been interesting to have been hooked up to a blood pressure device to note the changes from normal.  It was intense throughout.  I always thought it was cool when they did that for poker and see someone at like 170 after an action just sitting there looking calm.  As soon as I saw Carice's name in the credits my heart started pounding.  If I see Michiel Huisman's name (which I don't expect to but would be a twist) in the next ep's opening credits the effect will be similar!  Tobias Menzies is set to appear apparently at some point but that doesn't have the same gravitas IMO.

Aside from the near miss javelin attempt by the NK, we didn't see any other White Walker do anything let alone battle.  D&D warned about how battle scenes can be monotonous - and yeah, I've had my fill of wight battles in the dark for awhile.  But would've been cool to see more of Ghost battling or the aforementioned White Walkers dueling someone (and my guess is the lighting would've been lighter for that had it happened).

Upon rewatch I realized that I missed exactly what happened with the Arya godswood scene.  For some reason I thought Bran had caught the knife at first after Arya dropped it.

Glad some of the tinfoil can be put to rest as well.  In our betting pool 11 of the 32 thought Bran was the Night King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on April 30, 2019, 10:20:08 AM
Quote
but it’s undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked

Really made me pine for the Battle of the Blackwater. Ya know, no magic, just people fighting on a scale where you can see and remember where everyone is.

Quote
Glad some of the tinfoil can be put to rest as well.  In our betting pool 11 of the 32 thought Bran was the Night King.

Yikes. I mean, I get that discussing wild theories is the primary source of enjoyment for half the audience, but I'm always shocked at how many can't seem to separate that from, ya know, what professional storytellers are likely to do based on the narrative so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on April 30, 2019, 01:51:45 PM
My predictions after these first two episodes:

Jon will die, again, during or just after the great battle but Dany is pregnant with their child

Jamie will survive but with a grievous wound that will not allow him to live long but insists on joining the army as it moves south against his sister.  Brienne cares for him until his death.

Bran will indeed be the key to killing the Night King (love the idea of him warging into the ice dragon!), surviving but being less human than he is now and will retreat north? to seek refuge away from humanity

Cersei, seeing Dany approaching with her one remaining dragon and seeing her people flee her side to join with Dany, burns the Red Keep with wildfire as soon as Dany's army gets inside the city walls

Bronn kills the remaining dragon but that doesn't stop Kings Landing from being overrun/taken back by the Targareon forces

Tyrion, handed the crossbow by Bronn, kills his sister in mercy to keep her from dying in the fire or to finish her off as she lays dying of burns.  He tells Jamie what he did and why before Jamie dies from his wounds

Dany, finding the Iron Throne turned to slag by the fire, returns north to Winterfell to rule from there and raise Jon's child.  Sansa is keeping a close eye on her as the madness that took her grandfather seems to be coming for her.  Arya, pregnant with Robert Baratheon's grandchild, is Dany's hand.  The wheel is set for another round of fights for the Seven Kingdoms with the heirs to the Targareon, Baratheon, and Starks (through Sansa) still around.

Halfway through the final season, I am now even more obsessed with a theory like this! I love how you think, because "resetting the chess board for another cycle of power plays and violence" would be the perfect ending, IMO. Not sure we'll get it, but I would love it.

Boy I was wrong about Bran being useful as more than bait as well as about Jon dying.  Not sure what state Jaime is in. 

As annoying as it was as a viewer, yeah, leaving the scene dark was the right choice.  It made us struggle just like the humans on screen to try to see what was going on.  That and the quiet just before the dead attacked was very effective.  You can't see 'em, you can't hear 'em, but you know they're coming straight at you and there's way more of them than you.

I was surprised by how many survived the "Great War" although some could still, I suppose, die from their wounds post battle.  When I last saw Sam he was buried under a heap of bodies, some trying to kill him, so he might die from having chunks taken out of him.  Same goes for Brienne and Jaime I would guess.  It would give more punch to a loss if we could spend some time with it instead of it being one more among thousands going on around us.

Glad at least one dragon survived.  There's a hell of a lot of bodies around, too many to bury. Sort out any buried survivors and then burn them off.  The stench alone from leaving them to rot would be enough to chase all the survivors far, far South.

I disagree though with the idea that Theon's death was futile or only useful as a distraction for Arya though I'm sure it helped her.  He went to the weirwood knowing it was a suicide mission.  At the end, he chose to fight the fear that emasculated him more than Ramsey's knife did and chose to go out with courage.  He wasn't going to collapse in terror or run this time which was a redemption from a lot of his failings.

The Night King holding back his White Walkers was a wise tactical maneuver.  He realized the humans learned that taking out one White Walker would kill off a swarth of wights.  So let the wights do all the killing at Winterfell and he'd have still more to help him swarm south.  Lose his many or all his White Walkers during this battle and he'd be alone again, vastly outnumbered, and as he faced a swarm of humans coming at him, surely one would get though to him with Valarian steel.  So it was a good, long term strategy.  Just didn't work out.

I'm hoping the horror of battle that she was fully in and the losses she's suffered tempers Dany going forward.  Or it could push her further into Mad King territory.  There's going to be a lot of time on the march South for her to work through her feelings about Jon's being the true heir though I'm betting he's going to tell her he doesn't want the bloody throne, never did, just wanted to care for his people.  Her reaction to that will be something of a litmus test as to what kind of ruler she'll ultimately become --- one like Jon who puts his people first or one like Cersei who puts the pursuit of power before all other considerations.

The plotting of the next three episodes is going to be different than what I originally envisioned seeing the Great War finished in one episode.  So now I expect that the next episode will be recuperation, retrenching and heading South with a plan.  Ravens will fly to all the remaining part of the Seven Kingdoms that Dany defeated the Knight King and watch the undecided come flocking to her side.  Messages will head to the Iron Bank and to other countries as well.  How many people hate the Lannisters and will join up with Dany at this point?  Will the Iron Bank decide it's been a bad investment after all to back Cersei against Dany and Dragon Company?  The following episode will be the truncated trip South with people flocking to Dany's side (swelling her head/ego along with her ranks?) including a mass exodus from Kings Landing and then start of the final battle as that episode closes. The last episode would finish up the battle with Cersei's death giving the Seven Kingdom's back to the Targareon side and then I'm still predicting the same denouement which @Nick_Miller describes so well as "resetting the chess board for another cycle of power plays and violence".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on April 30, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but it’s undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

The dead were rushing the walls and one of the main characters shouted out, from the ground inside the castle, "Man the walls!" and I was like, "...What? They aren't manned already?"

Exactly. That was effing ridiculous.

https://www.forces.net/military-life/fun/game-thrones-siege-winterfell-military-strategist-takes-look (https://www.forces.net/military-life/fun/game-thrones-siege-winterfell-military-strategist-takes-look)

Battle analysis written by an Army instructor I talk to a lot.  We've been discussing this back and forth all day.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jon_Snow on April 30, 2019, 06:35:35 PM
It's very tough for me to be overly critical. It's a miracle that we are getting something like this on television at all. Sure, the show runners could have made some different choices (less shaky cam, more lighting)...but considering the constraints they are working under - limited episodes to work with, and a lazy author who is providing the source material - I found it fairly incredible overall.
I'm sorry you find that 70 year old who is a multiple Hugo, Nebula award winner for things besides strictly dealing with the world of Planetos, who takes an active role in local art, attends conventions, maintains a blog, and generally does whatever he wants - to be lazy on a forum that generally celebrates doing whatever you want when FI.

To invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch.  Even if George Martin call himself lazy (no idea how he identifies with his position on the industriousness continuum), I don't see the connection to the enjoyment of last night's episode or how this season is wrapping.  It seems like an unnecessary ad hominem.

Eh...to call him "lazy" on my part probably isn't fair. I'm a FIRE'd fellow myself and though my life is pretty much devoid of anything that could be characterized by "laziness", I'll never leave a legacy remotely close to his...even if he never publishes another word. So yeah, I know what someone like me looks like throwing criticism at someone like him. But there is very little doubt that he hasn't really dealt with becoming a "celebrity author" well at all. At the very least, he lost his focus after producing an incredible first 3 books - easily my 3 favourite books of any fantasy sequence. I found these so amazing upon their publication that I proceeded to buy replica weaponry from the series. I own a replica Longclaw and Needle...and was about to spring for Robert's Battle hammer before my DW proclaimed "ENOUGH". And then there is my screen name which I've indentified myself with on various forums well before the show became a cultural "thing". My fandom is legit. I'm  aware of his award winning, pre-ASOIAF writing accomplishments, having read most of it....admittedly AFTER discovering his mainstream fantasy hit. I'm certainly not alone here.

I actually agree with the GRRM not owing anyone ANYTHING...Neil Gaiman's "defense" of GRRM has merit...but there is a cautionary tale here....a "what could have been". The "what could have" being probably the best fantasy series ever written. Doubtful it will be viewed by history as that now. George, for years, maintained that he would remain ahead of the unfolding of the TV show with his books. He maintained this delusional thinking for quite a long time. Careful reading of his blog posts suggests he is probably a bit embarrassed as to how this has unfolded. But not embarrassed enough to not appear in a Jimmy Fallon late night skit recently. Bizarre. It could be as simple as age (70 as you mentioned) has simply caught up with him. Still a bit sad, but not quite as frustration-inducing as him just not giving a f*ck anymore.

As it is, I'm grateful that at least we have had the show for long time fans of the GRRM's fantasy world to have some sort of resolution. In isolation....it's a all-time great TV show, of that there is no doubt at all. I'm hoping for a great 3 episode conclusion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on May 05, 2019, 08:49:12 PM
The stage is set for a Hound/Mountian and Arya/Cersei take down. I do believe Jaime will witness/enable it and Cersei will die knowing he betrayed her in the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 06, 2019, 08:03:24 AM
Yikes, things went from bad to worse in a hurry.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on May 06, 2019, 09:41:28 AM
Well, it would have been pretty anti-climatic to have Dany and company waltz up with an overwhelming advantage.

I have to say I didn't understand a few things...

1) What did Dany and Tyrion think their little display at the end was going to accomplish? Marching up with like 50 Unsullied ain't going to intimidate anyone. Cersei has a lot of troops now, the mountain, those awesome giant crossbow things (balistas?), the naval advantage, and big ass walls when Dany has no visible siege weapons. Tyrion's speech about Cersei's child was pretty lame. He has lost sooooo much character momentum from a few seasons ago. His decision-making has been garbage lately.

2) Why didn't Cersei order her troops to kill Tyrion?? She freakin' sent an assassin after him already so she obviously really wants him dead! He was RIGHT there. It would have further weakened Dany at NO cost to Cersei. She looked weak in front of her troops sparing him.

3) Where the hell did Euron's ships come from? I would think if you're flying up on a dragon that you could see for tens of miles in all directions! She just happens to come around a bend and OOPs there are a buttload of ships, with magnificent aim on choppy seas, shooting giant arrows right into a flying dragon. They are like the anti-Stormtroopers. So accurate!

4) And was the big drunken orgy really the best idea up North? I guess you can't stop those things from happening, but geez how did they clean up all the blood and guts which would have been allllll over the place so quickly so they could party?

I give Euron the MVP. The dude delivered.  I don't care for him as a character, but he delivered.  But I only give the episode 7/10 for all of the questionable (to me) writing decisions above. I did enjoy the drunken scene, even though it made little sense to me. Watching Hound eat while everyone else in the whole room was listening to Dany or Jon was hilarious and so in character for him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on May 06, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
At this point, not only do I think that Arya is going to kill Cercei, I now think she will end up on the throne.  I think the northern cheer for her and her statement that she was never going to be a lady are foreshadowing of this - not a lady, but that doesn't mean not a queen. 

Cercei's prophesy about a younger one coming to knock her off her throne is likely to be filled by Arya - Dany (and to some extent Sansa) were both red herrings for Cercei to focus on. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on May 06, 2019, 09:50:19 AM
At this point, not only do I think that Arya is going to kill Cercei, I now think she will end up on the throne.  I think the northern cheer for her and her statement that she was never going to be a lady are foreshadowing of this - not a lady, but that doesn't mean not a queen. 

Cercei's prophesy about a younger one coming to knock her off her throne is likely to be filled by Arya - Dany (and to some extent Sansa) were both red herrings for Cercei to focus on.

She also named her direwolf after a legendary warrior queen, Nymeria.  If you're reading into the direwolf names.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on May 06, 2019, 09:53:16 AM
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on May 06, 2019, 09:58:57 AM
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.

Yeah..I mean I was questioning why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion, but yeah, why didn't she just mow ALL of them down? They had like 50 troops out in the open with no visible means of escape. It's not like Cersei cares about diplomacy or anything. Just shoot them!!! And why kill Missandei when she is the perfect hostage?? Dany's BFF! Keeping her as a hostage would make a lot more tactical sense than killing her, that is assuming you aren't going to freakin' kill Dany when you have the chance and just put an end to it all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 06, 2019, 10:36:04 AM
Well, it would have been pretty anti-climatic to have Dany and company waltz up with an overwhelming advantage.

I have to say I didn't understand a few things...

1) What did Dany and Tyrion think their little display at the end was going to accomplish? Marching up with like 50 Unsullied ain't going to intimidate anyone. Tyrion's speech about Cersei's child was pretty lame. He has lost sooooo much character momentum from a few seasons ago. His decision-making has been garbage lately.

2) Why didn't Cersei order her troops to kill Tyrion?? She freakin' sent an assassin after him already so she obviously really wants him dead! He was RIGHT there. It would have further weakened Dany at NO cost to Cersei. She looked weak in front of her troops sparing him.

3) Where the hell did Euron's ships come from? I would think if you're flying up on a dragon that you could see for tens of miles in all directions! She just happens to come around a bend and OOPs there are a buttload of ships, with magnificent aim on choppy seas, shooting giant arrows right into a flying dragon. They are like the anti-Stormtroopers. So accurate!

4) And was the big drunken orgy really the best idea up North? I guess you can't stop those things from happening, but geez how did they clean up all the blood and guts which would have been allllll over the place so quickly so they could party?

I give Euron the MVP. The dude delivered.  I don't care for him as a character, but he delivered.  But I only give the episode 7/10 for all of the questionable (to me) writing decisions above.
1) They said during the episode it was for propaganda purposes to show that they at least gave Cersei a chance at peace (again).  The 50 Unsullied I figured were there for protection of Varys, Daeny, and Tyrion in case it was an ambush, not to intimidate.  In fact, I figure the lack of soldier presence was chosen specifically not to intimidate but to show that the negotiation attempt was the focus.

2) No idea!  If I was her I would've then or last season when they were 1 on 1 (or 1 on 2 if you want to count Gregor as a person).  In fact, why not unleash all those scorpions (especially when on dry land, they must be even more accurate - if that's even possible) on that party of 50 and see how many you take out - she already knew she was going to say No to whatever Tyrion had to say as well as kill Missandei.  She's turned into a Bond villain (rather, the show has to have the proper "drama" in last episodes) with the requirements for certain enemies to be dispatched.  Don't be surprised if next week they show one of the dungeons in the Red Keep with a big table with a laser gun mounted.

3) Not sure how high she was flying but the Dragonstone area has a lot of bluffs and steep ridges.  I didn't mind that the ships were hiding and weren't seen from afar.  I agree the setup of that was a little cheesy - the accuracy, the exact angle to expect them to fly in, the timing of that (how would they know when they're coming, or would Euron's fleet just be sitting there for weeks waiting for that exact 5-10 second window when the element of surprise was on their side until they're spotted), etc.

4) To each their own but I thought they handled this well.  It was somber in the beginning, even before the feast when they had the scene with the pyres.  I didn't need to see the equivalent of Sam cleaning poop in the Citadel to know that there was a lot of work in the aftermath of the battle (including cleaning the inside of the castle and getting tables arranged for a banquet), the soldiers are weary, and people are generally downtrodden.  A lot of reflection and then it all starts to transition when Gendry is given Storm's End.  For those that survived, they realize there's still a lot going on and to live for and it's not the worst idea to drink wine with the people you've just been through hell with.  I even enjoyed how it transitioned from Daeny starting the reverie and then Jon stealing the show.  Couple that with her the rest of the episode and they've done a great job showing the change for her to be more like her dad and unhinged.

One peeve I had was with Jamie's unnecessary drama at the end.  Everyone watching the show and everyone remaining in the Seven Kingdoms knows that Jamie will be there in KL one way or another to see Cersei's fate.  It would not have been that difficult to have a little compassion and be like "Sorry but I have to do this" and then kiss Brienne and ride off.  Brienne might still cry the same way but deep down she has to know it's not reasonable to expect he would've stayed there for the rest of his life while Cersei is still on the Iron Throne and Jon/Daeny are headed down to confront Cersei.  The hatefulness didn't do it for me.  He could've even injected some sarcasm and said "the things I do for hate" and that would've been more understandable.  It just felt like he was being harsh to Brienne without cause.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 06, 2019, 10:45:44 AM
I read Jamie's brusqueness with Brienne more as a bit of self-hatred and maybe his feelings about her are stronger than he wants them to be... but he feels he doesn't "get" to pursue more than sex with her because of his bond with Cersei. He doesn't want to be gentler with Brienne because it'll be easier for her to get over him if he gives her more reason to see him as an asshole.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ketchup on May 06, 2019, 10:52:31 AM
I read Jamie's brusqueness with Brienne more as a bit of self-hatred and maybe his feelings about her are stronger than he wants them to be... but he feels he doesn't "get" to pursue more than sex with her because of his bond with Cersei. He doesn't want to be gentler with Brienne because it'll be easier for her to get over him if he gives her more reason to see him as an asshole.
Agreed 100%.  I was reminded a bit of "that phone call" between Walter White and Skyler towards the end of Breaking Bad.  Not quite the same intentions but a similar vibe.

I really liked last night's episode.  There were a couple bends of logic and hilariously compressed travel times (as the show has gotten more notorious about) but overall it was really solid, and I felt like the dialog was some of the best written the show has done in a while (post-books).

Apparently key plot points of the last two episodes have been leaked, so be careful out there on the intertubes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 06, 2019, 10:53:27 AM
I read Jamie's brusqueness with Brienne more as a bit of self-hatred and maybe his feelings about her are stronger than he wants them to be... but he feels he doesn't "get" to pursue more than sex with her because of his bond with Cersei. He doesn't want to be gentler with Brienne because it'll be easier for her to get over him if he gives her more reason to see him as an asshole.
Hard to argue that, just wasn't my fave part to watch.

Side note: I think Euron knows the baby isn't his.  If it was, how would Tyrion know?  Maybe it was me projecting but they showed a look of Euron up on the parapet during/after Tyrion's speech and that's what I gleaned from his face - could be totally off base of course.  Now, even if he knew who knows that set of actions that might lead to.  He might not care and just claim it's his or he could become a turncoat, I really have no clue, just thought that was an interesting notion for him to be aware of.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Psychstache on May 06, 2019, 12:06:01 PM
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.

Yeah..I mean I was questioning why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion, but yeah, why didn't she just mow ALL of them down? They had like 50 troops out in the open with no visible means of escape. It's not like Cersei cares about diplomacy or anything. Just shoot them!!! And why kill Missandei when she is the perfect hostage?? Dany's BFF! Keeping her as a hostage would make a lot more tactical sense than killing her, that is assuming you aren't going to freakin' kill Dany when you have the chance and just put an end to it all.

I think the missing factor for this option is that Drogon can be seen just chilling in the background outside the range of the ballistas. If they turn and unload on the ground troops the Unsullied could turtle up around Dany (who you have to kill to make this successful) and you risk pissing off the dragon and he can fry your entire siege team on the wall before they could reload.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on May 06, 2019, 12:43:24 PM
I liked @Jon_Snow's comments upthread to effect that the show is a good to very good show, just not the "greatest of all time" show it could have been if George RR Martin wrote the second half. Avoiding anything that says "leak" or hints at discussion thereof, though!

I do agree that the dragon shootdown was weird in being so effective. Maybe it's part of the showrunners' attempts to add some old-style "See, we really can kill someone you think won't die" vibes. Still wondering if Tyrion's apparent shift into stupidity is leading to a reveal, or just a casualty of a plot-driven decision to de-emphasize his character development.

Having ignored spoilers, I can still indulge in off-base imaginings of the end:

Dany dies in her foolish attempt to seize the throne in overly harsh ways.
Arya sneaks into King's Landing to kill Cersei but fails, facing off against the Mountain and suffering a debilitating injury.
The Hound attacks the Mountain, who wounds him.
Gendry too has sneaked in to save Arya, but shifts to achieving her goal and kills Cersei himself.
While dying, Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
Jon announces that Gendry is the best heir to throne.
Gendry marries Sansa, joining the houses of Stark, Baratheon and Lannister.
Thus Sansa is the young queen in the prophecy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on May 06, 2019, 12:59:33 PM
Quote
Tyrion's apparent shift into stupidity is leading to a reveal, or just a casualty of a plot-driven decision to de-emphasize his character development.

I’d bet the latter. His narrative arc finished in S6 and now there’s nothing left to have him do but stand around making cheap quips.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on May 06, 2019, 01:17:15 PM
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.

Yeah..I mean I was questioning why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion, but yeah, why didn't she just mow ALL of them down? They had like 50 troops out in the open with no visible means of escape. It's not like Cersei cares about diplomacy or anything. Just shoot them!!! And why kill Missandei when she is the perfect hostage?? Dany's BFF! Keeping her as a hostage would make a lot more tactical sense than killing her, that is assuming you aren't going to freakin' kill Dany when you have the chance and just put an end to it all.

I think the missing factor for this option is that Drogon can be seen just chilling in the background outside the range of the ballistas. If they turn and unload on the ground troops the Unsullied could turtle up around Dany (who you have to kill to make this successful) and you risk pissing off the dragon and he can fry your entire siege team on the wall before they could reload.

The scorpions neck-shot a flying dragon from unsteady boats while having enough power to punch straight through multiple layers of ships. A few human bodies would've done nothing to stop them. Not to mention they seems pretty quick at reloading on the boats... It's just poor writing. Also sad how small they made King's Landing look compared to earlier in the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 06, 2019, 01:30:25 PM
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ncornilsen on May 06, 2019, 01:48:10 PM

!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."



The witch lied! Bam! Twisted again! Try to keep up. There's alot of twists here, a lot of twists!

I was so disappointed in this episode I found myself thinking that Cersei would be my hero if she opened fire on Dany's contingent right then and there... since it would be a welcome dose of logic and sense in an episode that was completely bereft of it to that point. Then she didn't even have Tyrion feathered after his weird and soul-less speech... I started hoping the Children of the Forest would make another night king who would straighten all this out.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on May 06, 2019, 03:44:08 PM
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."

Well, these are legitimate points. I guess I have to assume that Maggy's prophecy discusses Cersei's illegitimate children vs Robert's own bastards, thereby contrasting the children that the king and queen have separately. Gendry isn't in the prophecy because he's the one child they have together!

Not sure about the Jamie part, just that for that some reason, Cersei hid Gendry. Gendry's always said his mother was blond and would sing to him. Maybe in an attempt to avoid the prophecy, Cersei hid the first baby, the one baby she originally had with Robert, and told Robert she had a miscarriage. But after the marriage soured, she consummated her love/lust with Jamie and had the three children we know of, giving them the advantages she could by raising them for the throne.

Perhaps at first she visited the baby in a tavern in disguise, which fits the story Gendry gave, but stopped as the chance of discovery rose? Or stopped when her other children were born? No idea if any of this is "true" in either the show or RR Martin's conception, just that I saw Gendry's story onscreen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on May 06, 2019, 04:34:13 PM
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."

Well, these are legitimate points. I guess I have to assume that Maggy's prophecy discusses Cersei's illegitimate children vs Robert's own bastards, thereby contrasting the children that the king and queen have separately. Gendry isn't in the prophecy because he's the one child they have together!

Not sure about the Jamie part, just that for that some reason, Cersei hid Gendry. Gendry's always said his mother was blond and would sing to him. Maybe in an attempt to avoid the prophecy, Cersei hid the first baby, the one baby she originally had with Robert, and told Robert she had a miscarriage. But after the marriage soured, she consummated her love/lust with Jamie and had the three children we know of, giving them the advantages she could by raising them for the throne.

Perhaps at first she visited the baby in a tavern in disguise, which fits the story Gendry gave, but stopped as the chance of discovery rose? Or stopped when her other children were born? No idea if any of this is "true" in either the show or RR Martin's conception, just that I saw Gendry's story onscreen.

I think that the scene about Gendry’s mom being blond was to prove the truth of Ned’s investigation into the hair colour of Robert’s progeny.  All Baratheon spawn have dark hair, even when mated with blond women.

Cersei’s three children - gold will be their crown- they will all be blond and not Robert’s.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on May 06, 2019, 04:37:38 PM
Mere facts!

:)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 06, 2019, 04:40:03 PM
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."

Well, these are legitimate points. I guess I have to assume that Maggy's prophecy discusses Cersei's illegitimate children vs Robert's own bastards, thereby contrasting the children that the king and queen have separately. Gendry isn't in the prophecy because he's the one child they have together!

Not sure about the Jamie part, just that for that some reason, Cersei hid Gendry. Gendry's always said his mother was blond and would sing to him. Maybe in an attempt to avoid the prophecy, Cersei hid the first baby, the one baby she originally had with Robert, and told Robert she had a miscarriage. But after the marriage soured, she consummated her love/lust with Jamie and had the three children we know of, giving them the advantages she could by raising them for the throne.

Perhaps at first she visited the baby in a tavern in disguise, which fits the story Gendry gave, but stopped as the chance of discovery rose? Or stopped when her other children were born? No idea if any of this is "true" in either the show or RR Martin's conception, just that I saw Gendry's story onscreen.

I think that the scene about Gendry’s mom being blond was to prove the truth of Ned’s investigation into the hair colour of Robert’s progeny.  All Baratheon spawn have dark hair, even when mated with blond women.

Cersei’s three children - gold will be their crown- they will all be blond and not Robert’s.

I agree. It's the set-up to his looking at the book where he reads the names of all the Baratheon descendents, and notes how they all say "dark of hair" except for Joffrey.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: redbirdfan on May 07, 2019, 12:32:49 AM
Cersei had a scene when she was talking to Robert about the death of their "black-haired" son.  She also told Cat Stark about him when she visited Cat who was watching over Bran (who had just been pushed out of the window by Jaime at Cersei's command).  I thought she made it up until she brought it up in her conversation with Robert. 

I'm a little nervous about crossbow-wielding Bronn wandering around Winterfell with plenty of killing days left in him.  I'm not sure if Sansa is still on Cersei's kill list given Olenna Tyrell's  confession, but Ser Brienne seems like she will be distracted by her recent heartbreak.  I didn't think Bronn would take out Jaime or Tyrion, but he could hedge his bet by taking out Sansa.

I have no idea what will happen in KL.  I wouldn't be shocked if Arya and the Hound take out Cersei and the Mountain and I wouldn't be shocked if they were killed.  Wasn't the Dornish army waiting for Yara to pick them up when Yara was ambushed by Euron?  It seems odd that they would sit this one out after everything that happened with Elaria and the Sand Snakes and the history of the Lannisters, the Mountain and the Martells. 

What is the point of Bran at this time if he isn't being used for military strategy?  I don't know the parameters of his gift, but can't he "see" all of the Lannister military prep and then advise everyone accordingly, i.e., watch out for ships with scorpions around Dragonstone?  Wouldn't the same thing that allowed him to go back and see Rhaegar's wedding allow him to see the battle prep?  I hope they don't use him for some deus ex machina time traveling gimmick(s).

I still love GOT but this season feels rushed and underdeveloped...especially compared to all the time and detail we were given for each development in the earlier seasons.  I have no clue what's going to happen, but I have a feeling everyone will be scratching their heads in the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 07, 2019, 09:04:16 AM
What is the point of Bran at this time if he isn't being used for military strategy?  I don't know the parameters of his gift, but can't he "see" all of the Lannister military prep and then advise everyone accordingly, i.e., watch out for ships with scorpions around Dragonstone?  Wouldn't the same thing that allowed him to go back and see Rhaegar's wedding allow him to see the battle prep?  I hope they don't use him for some deus ex machina time traveling gimmick(s).
The treatment seems to be he uses the past and can relay that information but something about the future he seems to let it come to pass.  Maybe it's part of the unspoken 3ER code or something.  This is part of why it was weird in Episode 3 with him seemingly not doing anything but he knew where he had to be and what his sister was going to do, so he had to let it unfold.

Also, I don't know how much he cares about the Starks relative to other alive humans at the moment.  The Starks were pivotal in defeating the NK and his army (and coincidentally is/was his family) but I'm not convinced he really cares which humans have power over other humans moving forward now that the Long Night is (already) over.  On the other hand, he was adamant that Jon know his true parentage (when talking to Sam) - to what end or what Bran saw in the future regarding that nugget is anyone's guess, it could be beneficial to the Starks or maybe it was just better for Westeros overall.  Maybe he knew that Daenerys is going mad and needed to let things unfold the way they are.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: doggyfizzle on May 07, 2019, 09:53:17 AM
I have no idea what will happen in KL.  I wouldn't be shocked if Arya and the Hound take out Cersei and the Mountain and I wouldn't be shocked if they were killed.  Wasn't the Dornish army waiting for Yara to pick them up when Yara was ambushed by Euron?  It seems odd that they would sit this one out after everything that happened with Elaria and the Sand Snakes and the history of the Lannisters, the Mountain and the Martells. 

The Martells (besides Arya) were my favorite characters in the books, and I'm baffled why they've been left out of this season.  Hopefully there is some resolution with them and Yara (rather than her just setting off to re-conquer the Iron Islands) making at least one more appearance, but I'm not holding my breath.

I could also see Arya, after killing Cersei with Jamie's face on, assuming power (momentarily) with Cersei's face while negotiating with Danerys about who will rule and establishing some sort of autonomy for the Starks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on May 08, 2019, 06:14:19 AM
People are talking about how the show writing went sour when they ran out of book material, but I'm thinking it more went sour because they omitted book material. Euron's sorcery with the Dragon-binding horn, Victarion Greyjoy, fAegon and the Golden Company, Lady Stoneheart, Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven, Arienne Martell and the plot with Myrcella, etc. A lot of the show character's actions and motivations probably belong to those plots, but without those plots their actions and motivations are all over the place. Dany could have lost a dragon to Euron instead. There'd be another power at sea. Instead of 2 kingdoms in the show (North vs. KL) we'd have potentially 7 vibrant kingdoms. Tyrion wouldn't have had to act so stupidly to lose Dany's army over and over, instead parts of Westeros would have already fallen behind fAegon. Varys, who murders Kevin and Pycelle and has never really been "for the realm" in the books, would make much more sense. Cercei probably wasn't meant to last this long but the show viewers liked her so they kept her in, leaving them no choice but to make her the final enemy.

I'm still somewhat excited for the end of the show, but it helps me to think that the books are more akin to what the Maesters record as history, while the show is someone's drunk uncle telling a story at a wedding, leaving out key facts and details while sensationalizing random parts.

Feel free to ignore my random ramblings. It's pretty cool that book 1 (A Game of Thrones) is #2 in the Kindle store right now. If the show gets more people to read the books I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 08, 2019, 10:48:40 AM
Hey look, a GOT thread.

I suck at predictions with this show, so I'll just state my curmudgeonly opinion -- the biggest mistake of the producers, by a million miles, was reducing the number episodes in the last two seasons. I would argue it was the biggest mistake in television history. The show used to be tight as a knot; everything just seems so off now in terms of timing and, more importantly, motive. Now it's an Avengers-like mini-series.

The old seasons used to lay the seeds, take a couple plot twists, thoroughly develop the characters and their motives, and then the final episodes were a beautiful orgy of all these plot lines coming together without any plot holes. Seasons 7 and 8 just feel so rushed, and the characters completely lack motive for these huge decisions they are making.

Just from this last episode, Dany physically went from Winterfell to Dragonstone (and getting attacked there) to King's Landing and back to Dragonstone; she mentally went from loathing Jon to loving Jon to trying to deceive Jon to wanting to attack King's Landing ASAP to considering otherwise to nope let's attack King's Landing to let's offer a peace offering first. All of this in about a 45 minute period.

Stretch the season to its usual ten episodes and you could have shown her on ships having important dialogue with others about how she wants to rule, how she wants to handle the Jon Snow news, whether her attitude toward killing innocents has changed, on and on. Her time in Slaver's Bay let us really delve into her as a character. That's gone now.

You could say this for almost every aspect of the plot right now -- Cersei having roughly 3 or 4 scenes in four episodes of the final season is absolute madness; but they are so busy having Dany and the others travel all over Westeros that there's no time for arguably the third or fourth most important character in the show.

It's one thing for a comedy to get stale and die out; it's another for a show that was probably the best show on television to just go so...off. GOT went from arguably my top show of all time -- an all time great -- to an Avengers like mini-series. Seasons 1-6 rank probably in my top 3, but the show as a whole is probably barely in my top 10 now.

I didn't even get to watching this last week's show until yesterday. And the fact that I hardly care who ends up on the Iron Throne tells you all you need to know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 08, 2019, 12:18:45 PM
Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven
Yeah, it's hard not to be at least somewhat of a book wanker when all they had to do was add a fake blotch to the 3ER's cheek.  That's what, 20 min of makeup for a character we saw a handful of times?  I just don't see the downside there of tipping the cap to book fans (without really altering anything for the show-only people) by acknowledging Show!3ER really is a super interesting Targaryen with even more backstory than the other famous old Targaryen of the Night's Watch that also had a brother who was king.  Then again, books will always be richer so I just have to accept that and technically the show never said he wasn't Bloodraven. 

That said, there are other times where I'm more than alright with the changes and are just enjoying their interpretation.  For instance, Charles Dance and Maisie Williams acting together at Harrenhal (rather than Roose Bolton) was fantastic!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on May 08, 2019, 02:42:52 PM
Quote
I would argue it was the biggest mistake in television history.

Have it agree. Really feels like the show runners knew they didn’t have a solid ending and decided to get things over with as fast as possible so they could scuttle off to direct Star Wars spin-offs.

I don’t know that a cohesive conclusion to a story with 12 protagonists is even possible but, judging by the reactions to the last 2 episodes, the finale will be DOA.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: HPstache on May 08, 2019, 02:53:14 PM
Quote
I would argue it was the biggest mistake in television history.

Have it agree. Really feels like the show runners knew they didn’t have a solid ending and decided to get things over with as fast as possible so they could scuttle off to direct Star Wars spin-offs.

I don’t know that a cohesive conclusion to a story with 12 protagonists is even possible but, judging by the reactions to the last 2 episodes, the finale will be DOA.

From a profit standpoint, I don't think that people are cancelling HBO halfway through the season because of it.  So I doubt HBO is ever going to consider it a mistake.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 10, 2019, 01:22:29 PM
Didn't read all the replies...

But my disappointment is immeasurable.  The writing has been getting lazy and bad since they surpassed source material, but Jesus fucking Christ is season 8 bad.  I still loved GOT through season 7 and would place it as my all time favorite show, but season 8 is one of the worst pieces of garbage I've ever seen.  They are going to go full Dexter on us. My prediction is that Jon Snow goes north of the wall to be a lumberjack and that's how it ends (not really, but I'm pretty sure that would be more satisfying that whatever garbage they cooked up). A decade of build up and the white walkers are done just like that, with the worst tactical plan I've ever seen, cheap pandering to fans.  None of it makes any fucking sense! I would have failed my 9th grade creative writing class if I would have turned in a garbage nonsensical story with as many plot holes and oversights as they have.  How does the biggest and most expensive tv show ever get way with this?

I have definitely died a little inside the last couple of weeks.  I am not looking forward to the remaining 2 episodes.  I will finish them because I've invested so much already and want to see it through, but my expectations have been completely readjusted to expect nothing.  My expectations have certainly been subverted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 10, 2019, 01:27:01 PM
I am also holding out hope that GRRM has finished, or is close to finishing the story and is just keeping it under wraps.  He saw what hacks D&D are and has been distancing himself from the show for several seasons.  D&D have more than enough rope, and they are hanging themselves.  My hope is after it's all said and done GRRM will release the books and say something to the effect that he disowns everything after season 4 and is in no way associated with those jokers who ruined his story, and we end up with a proper ending. 

A man can dream...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Epor on May 10, 2019, 02:27:23 PM
I am also holding out hope that GRRM has finished, or is close to finishing the story and is just keeping it under wraps.  He saw what hacks D&D are and has been distancing himself from the show for several seasons.  D&D have more than enough rope, and they are hanging themselves.  My hope is after it's all said and done GRRM will release the books and say something to the effect that he disowns everything after season 4 and is in no way associated with those jokers who ruined his story, and we end up with a proper ending. 

A man can dream...

https://www.theonion.com/george-r-r-martin-promises-fans-the-winds-of-winter-1826115223 (https://www.theonion.com/george-r-r-martin-promises-fans-the-winds-of-winter-1826115223)

I personally have no idea how is going to end, and I am prepared to about any ending, including:
"And that’s why, even today, they’re known as Branny Smith apples. The End." - (Stole this one from another forum.)





Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 10, 2019, 02:43:29 PM
I am also holding out hope that GRRM has finished, or is close to finishing the story and is just keeping it under wraps.  He saw what hacks D&D are and has been distancing himself from the show for several seasons.  D&D have more than enough rope, and they are hanging themselves.  My hope is after it's all said and done GRRM will release the books and say something to the effect that he disowns everything after season 4 and is in no way associated with those jokers who ruined his story, and we end up with a proper ending. 

A man can dream...

https://www.theonion.com/george-r-r-martin-promises-fans-the-winds-of-winter-1826115223 (https://www.theonion.com/george-r-r-martin-promises-fans-the-winds-of-winter-1826115223)

I personally have no idea how is going to end, and I am prepared to about any ending, including:
"And that’s why, even today, they’re known as Branny Smith apples. The End." - (Stole this one from another forum.)

The Onion is great.  Seriously, though, I wonder just how close GRRM  ACTUALLY is to finishing that book (which wouldn't hypothetically be the last book in the series anyway).  And re: holding out hopes that the GRRM's version will be dramatically better, I dunno.  I loved the first 3 books, thought book 4 was ok, and then thought the last book was pretty bad and could have been edited down by about half.  And Tyrion still hadn't met Dany by the end of it!  In all honesty, I have preferred almost every choice that the show runners have made that departed from the books up until this season, where I agree things have gone downhill somewhat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on May 12, 2019, 08:40:45 PM
Holy Shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: LittleWanderer on May 12, 2019, 09:05:29 PM
Well, that was terrible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 12, 2019, 09:14:35 PM
Well, that was terrible.

I guess the plan is to leave us with nothing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 12, 2019, 10:55:54 PM
Well, that was terrible.

I guess the plan is to leave us with nothing.

By nothing, do you mean nothing in terms of quality of the show?  That's fair, though I'm not as irritated as many people seem to be, given that I thought the author's plotting started going off the rails in book 4, and to pretty much complete shit in book 5. So the show has sometimes been an improvement.

Or did you mean in terms of nothing and no one happy and prosperous at the end?  I feel like it was inevitable from book 3 that this series was not going to end well for any of the main characters. It's just slow-mo emotional torture to get invested in any of them (which, of course, I am).

I will give the show credit for surprising me: the only character I ever was absolutely sure would live through the series was Arya, and on my short list of 'very likely to live', Varys was at the head of the line.  Oops.   Bronn is my other one, so we'll see how that comes out...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 13, 2019, 05:53:31 AM
Well, that was terrible.

I guess the plan is to leave us with nothing.

By nothing, do you mean nothing in terms of quality of the show?  That's fair, though I'm not as irritated as many people seem to be, given that I thought the author's plotting started going off the rails in book 4, and to pretty much complete shit in book 5. So the show has sometimes been an improvement.

Or did you mean in terms of nothing and no one happy and prosperous at the end?  I feel like it was inevitable from book 3 that this series was not going to end well for any of the main characters. It's just slow-mo emotional torture to get invested in any of them (which, of course, I am).

I will give the show credit for surprising me: the only character I ever was absolutely sure would live through the series was Arya, and on my short list of 'very likely to live', Varys was at the head of the line.  Oops.   Bronn is my other one, so we'll see how that comes out...

Quite honestly, I guess I sort of mean that I just don’t care anymore.

I sort of agree with you about GRRM. I stopped reading midway through book 5.

I’m still processing. And wrote the above last night just after I saw the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: PoutineLover on May 13, 2019, 06:24:30 AM
I was sad that Dany systematically destroyed the entire city even after they surrendered because it was such pointless destruction and loss of life, there goes any chance of ever being beloved by her people, and it's so far from the Dany who cared about crucified children and ended slavery. But I think it sets up Jon trying to take back his rightful crown because he can't support her anymore. Kinda disappointed that 2/6 final episodes are mostly just cool cgi of battles and not actually dialogue or useful plot advancing stuff. There were some cool moments and some important character battles but it seemed like king's landing fell way too easily considering all the buildup. Still interested in what happens next week, but overall didn't love this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Noodle on May 13, 2019, 06:38:38 AM
I really wish they had taken some of that money they spent on dragon CGI and spent it on a few more episodes of actors' salaries. Two seasons (one for the Night King, one for the war for the Iron Throne) or even one longer one would have let them play out those plotlines in enough detail to have them make sense. I don't disagree that the series has been laid the groundwork for a vein of madness in Daenarys, but they've also spent a lot of time establishing her regard for the little people and how unusual that makes her in the Game of Thrones universe. They needed a little more to get me there.

One thing I am wondering now, though...is there a chance Tyrion kills Dany? Just because his brother was the one who killed the last mad Targaryen, from a similar position of trust. Probably Arya or Jon, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on May 13, 2019, 07:12:31 AM
One thing I am wondering now, though...is there a chance Tyrion kills Dany? Just because his brother was the one who killed the last mad Targaryen, from a similar position of trust. Probably Arya or Jon, though.

When they were showing Arya surviving the destruction of the city all I could think of was "you just made the list!"  (for the WWE fans out there).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on May 13, 2019, 07:25:02 AM
6/10, and that's mostly just because the brutality of the scenes made me cringe a few times, which means they accomplished something. There was also some really gorgeous scenes with the falling ash. Winter is coming = ash, not snow? Arya was framed in some very powerful visuals.

MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

I guess I'm not too surprised by Dany though. She has lost everything, and has been outsmarted at every turn, due to her own stupidity or the stupidity of her advisers. She saw she had the clear advantage and she made sure there was no way she was being deceived this time. It doesn't justify it, but she was tired of getting jerked around.

I guess I have no idea how the story is going to wrap up with the Starks winning? (so maybe they won't!) Even the Northern armies were caught up in the brutality and Jon couldn't stop them. It seems they responded favorably to Dany's no-mercy approach, and so how does Jon pull them away from the Dothraki and Unsullied in a single episode? Not to mention, what happens to Drogan if Dany dies? If he goes nuts, no one can stop him. Is that possibly more dangerous than Dany guiding him?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: bacchi on May 13, 2019, 07:58:21 AM
MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

Yeah, Drogan and his unlimited firebreath....not buying it.

Bran said that Jamie still had a part to play. That wasn't much of a part.

I liked the Cersei death scene. Not every character can get their glorious moment of revenge and not ever villain gets their comeuppance.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 13, 2019, 08:07:28 AM
MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

Yeah, Drogan and his unlimited firebreath....not buying it.

Bran said that Jamie still had a part to play. That wasn't much of a part.

I liked the Cersei death scene. Not every character can get their glorious moment of revenge and not ever villain gets their comeuppance.

I'm so irritated by all the loose ends/red herrings that are apparently never going to get cleaned up. All the character arcs that promise things that just... don't go anywhere.

All the time we spent following Bran... for what? Meh.

All the times people referred to Jon Snow as having died and brought back to life, for what? Meh.

Just meh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 13, 2019, 08:08:28 AM
Also:

The first thing I said to Mr. Kris when the credits started rolling after last night's episode was:

"Well, I bet all those people who named their kids Khaleesi are regretting that decision right about now."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ixtap on May 13, 2019, 08:12:07 AM
Are we assuming that dragon's breathe cannot melt iron?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on May 13, 2019, 08:28:14 AM
Quote
Two seasons (one for the Night King, one for the war for the Iron Throne) or even one longer one would have let them play out those plotlines in enough detail to have them make sense.

Never forget that HBO offered the showrunners more time and money to do exactly this and they refused, confident that they could come to a satisfying conclusion in just 13 episodes.

What we got was...this. One of the most textbook cases of climax driven forced plotting in recent memory. This is on par with a Transformers movie.

You can do things 'discovery' style where fully developed being allowed to exist and act according to their own logic. Often this method sacrifices a coherent climax (points about GRRM losing the thread in book 5 is an example of this problem).

You can do things 'outline' style where character motivations and action are restrained so that everyone can be maneuvered into position for a wham-bam climax.

Both methods work. Both create great stories. One is not inherently better than the other.

What you CAN NOT do is start with the former and then switch to the latter 75% of the way through. That's what was done on GoT. It's buckwild that anyone thought it would work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 13, 2019, 08:39:51 AM
6/10, and that's mostly just because the brutality of the scenes made me cringe a few times, which means they accomplished something. There was also some really gorgeous scenes with the falling ash. Winter is coming = ash, not snow? Arya was framed in some very powerful visuals.

MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

I guess I'm not too surprised by Dany though. She has lost everything, and has been outsmarted at every turn, due to her own stupidity or the stupidity of her advisers. She saw she had the clear advantage and she made sure there was no way she was being deceived this time. It doesn't justify it, but she was tired of getting jerked around.

I guess I have no idea how the story is going to wrap up with the Starks winning? (so maybe they won't!) Even the Northern armies were caught up in the brutality and Jon couldn't stop them. It seems they responded favorably to Dany's no-mercy approach, and so how does Jon pull them away from the Dothraki and Unsullied in a single episode? Not to mention, what happens to Drogan if Dany dies? If he goes nuts, no one can stop him. Is that possibly more dangerous than Dany guiding him?

I saw on some Reddit thread that Cercei's death fulfilled the prophecy told by the seer when she was a teenager. I can't remember the prophecy, but if so, that's kind of cool. 

I was a little surprised that Cersei wasn't lying about being pregnant with Jamie's kid, after all. 

I always expected Jamie to kill Cersei at the end, and their deaths were a little anticlimactic. It would have been much better if Jamie had somehow succeeded in being the one to get the city bells to ring (I feel like there might have been a cut scene?).  But Jamie was always going to die, from the second he pushed Bran out the window.  And though he got a lot of growth over the series and a lot of opportunity to do some good, (thematically speaking) he was always going to suffer and be humbled in the end for his crime(s) and for generally being somewhat sociopathic, and certainly he was always going to die for/with/because of Cersei, so I'm ok with it. I do think the fight with Euron was sort of pointless, b/c Euron was never a character, just a plot device so that Cersei could have some deluded hope of winning a war.

Re: Drogon...I also started wondering last night about how to control him without Dany. It never occurred to me to wonder before, but it should have.

Re: Dany...this type of ending for her has been foreshadowed through the books and show many times (though not a foregone conclusion, obviously), but it would have been nice to have an additional episode of her unraveling mentally to really sell it.  Clarke has been terrific selling it, given what little time she had. 

I also appreciated the sick cleverness of the show in giving me tons of something my inner tween girl LOVES to cheer for (woman riding flaming dragon that is destroying shit) and turned it from something triumphant into something terrible and depressing.

Other thoughts: Poor Tyrion, Jon, and Davos.  Constantly trying to do good/make the moral best out of situations constantly turning to shit around them or biting them in the ass.  I do think it's possible that Tyrion might kill Dany, but it's more likely Arya or Jon has to do it.  DH thinks the show will end with Jon (miserably) on the Iron Throne with Davos or Tyrion as Hand, or with Tyrion serving as Sansa's 'advisor/hand' up north, with the implication that  those two rulers will eventually be at each other's throats, b/c that's how these things roll and GRRM's view of humanity is dire (much like mine LOL).

Great scene between Tyrion and Jamie.  That made me sniffle.

There's some rumors going around that Martin will announce a hard publication date for the 6th book soon after the end of the show.  I am skeptical, but I think this would be a great marketing ploy, b/c the interest in the series is likely to drop sharply unless he strikes while the iron's hot. And I could see if (hypothetically) the book was finished, sitting on it until the show was over. That way if the show conclusion is adored (which it has not been), he can ride the wave. And if it isn't adored, people will desperately hope he can 'fix' whatever they are dissatisfied with.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 13, 2019, 08:42:39 AM
Also:

The first thing I said to Mr. Kris when the credits started rolling after last night's episode was:

"Well, I bet all those people who named their kids Khaleesi are regretting that decision right about now."

Ha!  I know, right? She's a great character, but how did people NOT see this character arc as a very feasible possibility?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 13, 2019, 09:29:18 AM
Also:

The first thing I said to Mr. Kris when the credits started rolling after last night's episode was:

"Well, I bet all those people who named their kids Khaleesi are regretting that decision right about now."

Ha!  I know, right? She's a great character, but how did people NOT see this character arc as a very feasible possibility?

The Dunning-Kruger effect.  The people that name their kid Khaleesi or Daenerys are probably not good at doing critical thinking in the first place, so of course they don't recognize how it could possibly back fire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 13, 2019, 09:56:46 AM
I am so over the dragon lady.

And it's not just because she just killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Her whole thing with being upset with/about Jon's heritage being known - like, that's who he is! Deal with it!  She has felt so justified going back to Season 1 because of her claim to her family's throne but now all of a sudden can't take off the blinders (regardless if he wants crown or not).

If she's going to go full power crazy, only logical to kill Jon in last ep.  Perhaps it was inevitable for a show like this to wind down (or maybe not, as others have said - was 73 episodes the best choice after sitting at 60 and deciding to shut it down?) with wanton death and destruction, but schadenfreude is just not my thing.  I haven't enjoyed watching nearly as much compared to seasons past (S4 probably my fave).  I used to re-watch every episode on Monday evening but haven't done that yet for S8, just not a desire to sit there and be anxious for another 70+ minutes.  I do marvel at the production value, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 13, 2019, 10:18:02 AM
Dany: I'm the rightful ruler! Time to take the throne back from the usurpers and have me, Daenarys Targaryen, sit upon the iron throne as it is my birthright as a Targaryen! I'm the last Targaryen and the line of succession must be followed!
Jon: Ackshually my real name is Aegon Targaryen.
Dany: OMG please don't tell anyone because I still want to be Queen. K thx.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Samuel on May 13, 2019, 10:51:02 AM
At this point I'm basically measuring episodes on 1) quality of visual effects, and 2) number of clunky, groan inducing narrative shortcuts they wedge in. This episode ranks pretty high for season 8 as the effects were stellar and the only true clunker moment was when Euron washes up at exactly the right place and time to confront Jamie. For no reason at all. Whatever conflict those two had wasn't important enough to require this confrontation. Just BBQ Euron on his flagship and if Jamie needs to be mortally wounded by the time he finds Cersei then have him get injured while cutting his way through some Gold Cloaks or something... it's choices like this that make me suspect the writers were just 100% over this project and ready to move on.

I did like that Varys (a personal favorite) went out like a gangster. He saw what Daenerys was becoming and although he failed to convince Tyrion or Jon he still forfeited his life by acting to try and save the realm from her growing blood lust. He apparently spent his last few days trying to poison her while outing Jon to the remaining Lords and Ladies (at least I assume he sent some scrolls off, it looked like morning when he was writing the first one and nighttime when he was seized), then accepted his fate with dignity. It was as good a death as anyone has yet gotten on this show, and assuming he was able to get off some of those scrolls he's pushed the Jon/Daenerys show down (they can't co-exist after the scourging of King's Landing, can they?) to a whole new level.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Wilson Hall on May 13, 2019, 11:10:20 AM

Re: Drogon...I also started wondering last night about how to control him without Dany. It never occurred to me to wonder before, but it should have.


What about the scene a few episodes back in which Drogon was eyeballing Jon curiously if not downright lovingly? He can smell that Jon is a Targaryen. If Dany were to meet her demise, Jon would take responsibility for him.

I think there will either be a final, bloody confrontation between Dany's forces and what remains of the collective Stark/Baratheon/Lannister houses and their allies, or the latter group will be allowed to return to Winterfell to live out an uneasy peace--that is, as long as Jon has any remaining bargaining power with Dany.

I'm still wondering if either Dany or Arya is pregnant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: StarBright on May 13, 2019, 11:29:21 AM

I'm still wondering if either Dany or Arya is pregnant.

As much as I'm annoyed by some of the amazing women characters having sex shoehorned into their stories (Arya and Brienne), I do find it very interesting that the show has set up potential for an entire new ruling generation to be born.

Theoretically there is still Edmure's kid to inherit River Run, a potential Baratheon/Stark baby, a potential Lannister Baby, a potential Targaryen squared/Stark baby and I feel like the show is going to put Sansa and Tyrion together, so a Stark/Lannister for the North. I also feel like Robin Arryn has been so written out of the show that the Vale will put themselves in Sansa's hands a la Catherine the Great.

While I haven't enjoyed how the truncated season has made some character choices feel unearned, I would understand and appreciate if the show ended in a sort of uneasy truce (either breaking everyone back into kingdoms or with a Targaryen tenuously holding the throne) with a new generation learning old grudges and making new alliances before things fall apart again in 20 years.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: bacchi on May 13, 2019, 12:30:59 PM
Who is the potential Lannister baby? Jamie/Brienne?

The Game is loosely based on the War of the Roses between the Yorks and the Lancasters.

- The main Lancaster branch became extinct during the War.
- Henry of Tudor married Elizabeth of York.
- The Tudors ruled peacefully for the next 120 years.

That sounds like a Gendry + Arya throne. Seems unlikely though.

Prediction: Dany tries to dracyrys on Jon but Drogan refuses.

Prediction: Jon will quit civilization and retreat to the north, past the wall. He's seen enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 13, 2019, 12:47:44 PM
Prediction: Dany tries to dracyrys on Jon but Drogan refuses.

Prediction: Jon will quit civilization and retreat to the north, past the wall. He's seen enough.

...They are going to go full Dexter on us. My prediction is that Jon Snow goes north of the wall to be a lumberjack and that's how it ends (not really, but I'm pretty sure that would be more satisfying that whatever garbage they cooked up)....

But seriously, no way Jon can just fuck off after this.  He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard.  Dany is no longer his queen, and he can't stand by while she goes mad so he's probably going to kill her, and maybe begrudgingly sit on the iron throne himself even though he doesn't want it.  Or maybe my expectations will be subverted with more terrible writing that doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on May 13, 2019, 01:05:43 PM
Quote
He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard

You say that as if 'what the character would actually do' is still driving events. This last 2 seasons have been nothing but scripted movements to get characters in place for climatic moneyshots previously established personalities be damned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Wilson Hall on May 13, 2019, 01:10:15 PM
Who is the potential Lannister baby? Jamie/Brienne?

That sounds like a Gendry + Arya throne. Seems unlikely though.

Prediction: Dany tries to dracyrys on Jon but Drogan refuses.

Prediction: Jon will quit civilization and retreat to the north, past the wall. He's seen enough.

Jamie/Brienne. There is also the (much less likely) chance that Sansa and Tyrion could reunite and produce an heir. They were married at one time, though she was physically repulsed by him, and he had too much decency to force himself on her. She's more mature now and could grow to care from him, if she can get past the pain his siblings inflicted upon her and her family.

Arya and Gendry won't happen, as he proposed to her a few episodes back and she turned him down. I'd say the odds are 50/50 that she's carrying their child.

bacchi, I like your prediction about Dany, Drogon, and Jon: that would be quite a moment!

I doubt Jon will stay in King's Landing, which is now in ruins. If he survives, he'll return to Winterfell to support Sansa in her reign there, or move on even further north, as you suggest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE_Buckeye on May 13, 2019, 01:11:10 PM
But seriously, no way Jon can just fuck off after this.  He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard.  Dany is no longer his queen, and he can't stand by while she goes mad so he's probably going to kill her, and maybe begrudgingly sit on the iron throne himself even though he doesn't want it.  Or maybe my expectations will be subverted with more terrible writing that doesn't make any sense.

Easy to see how this eventuality comes to pass IMO.
Jon kills Dany, submits himself to whoever or whatever ends up ruling Westeros, and is given the same decision Ned was initially given; death or taking the Black.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 13, 2019, 01:22:05 PM
Quote
He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard

You say that as if 'what the character would actually do' is still driving events. This last 2 seasons have been nothing but scripted movements to get characters in place for climatic moneyshots previously established personalities be damned.

Yes, which is why I followed up immediately that my expectations may be subverted by nonsensical writing.  That's what the character should do, but apparently anything goes this season with no rhyme or reason to anything.  It's basically whose line is it anyways where the motives are made up and logic doesn't matter.

Also nobody should be "taking the black".  The nights watch should no longer be a thing.   The NK and WW are no longer a threat.  The wall no longer exists anyway, a large portion was destroyed by a dragon.  But again, nothing needs to make sense anymore. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on May 13, 2019, 01:47:21 PM
Somewhere I read that GRRM's original motivation was in part to illustrate something along the lines of what-is-war-good-for-absolutely-nothing. Maybe the writing here isn't crafted the way he would have done it, but it sort of conveys the point anyway.

In particular, the pattern where people feel they're justified but even the good guys end up doing bad things - that's a clear conclusion from what we saw. I agree Dany's arc along this path felt rushed, undeveloped in storytelling terms. Yet the more I think about it, she's being shown as a high handed leader who thinks internally but personally, with a thin line between the high minded vs the overly personalized. This could happen in real life...in fact, I think it does!

Wormsey's choice to pick up the spear against the troops that had surrendered was disappointing in the extreme. Again, it's an understandable personal choice even though I hugely oppose it. Again, someone who felt like "the good guy" has turned sour, so that we should no longer root for him. If we wanted Good Guys vs Bad Guys, we are lost.

After all that, Jon's situation of going all too quickly from "a few misgivings" to "conflicted loyalties, but we're still mostly the good guys" to "oh shit, we're f-ing up hugely and yet my best option is to join the war crimes and start running people through with my sword" became horrifyingly realistic IMHO. I feel my own country's people have done this several times during my own life, and I can think of at least one other country in the last century that probably had many citizens with reason to feel the same. Sorry to take an epic fantasy series and get serious with it, but this is what I feel after watching episode 5.

If the unpleasant feelings from the last couple of episodes ever bleed over into real life in the sense of making someone or some country choose not to go to war, it would be well worth the initial disappointment in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on May 13, 2019, 01:49:36 PM
Quote
Yes, which is why

I was bitterly agreeing with you.

If the leaks I read this morning for ep6 are accurate (and it looks like they were for ep1-5), we are in for some epic nonsense in the finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: driftwood on May 13, 2019, 02:39:28 PM
After all that, Jon's situation of going all too quickly from "a few misgivings" to "conflicted loyalties, but we're still mostly the good guys" to "oh shit, we're f-ing up hugely and yet my best option is to join the war crimes and start running people through with my sword" became horrifyingly realistic IMHO.

I think they did a decent job of making Jon's violence from that point forward justified... Besides the overall shock and regret he was showing, he looked like he was regretfully killing only those who attacked him. Not sure though, it was a wild scene and I have a human memory. Gray Worm's actions pushed the Army into killing the surrendered, but it looked like Jon would only kill the soldiers that were trying to kill him after that point. And the rapist, so good job there.

They way this is going down is pretty rushed and poorly written, but I'm still interested to see if we get some sort of a 'happy ending' for this world, or if it's all death and misery. I kinda like the shock factor we'd all experience if it turns out terribly for everyone. Bronn on the wreckage of the Iron Throne?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 13, 2019, 03:00:08 PM
I wonder if Bran could warg into Drogon, and kill Dany that way?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on May 13, 2019, 03:04:09 PM

bacchi, I like your prediction about Dany, Drogon, and Jon: that would be quite a moment!


I can see Dany doing this if confronted in public with Jon being the rightful heir to the throne.  Of course, all it would do is prove that Jon is a Targareon as he would also be fireproof, just like her.  Then what could she do?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 13, 2019, 03:09:02 PM
I wonder if Bran could warg into Drogon, and kill Dany that way?

I've lost the belief he's going to do anything like that. He's been useless as tits on a boar for a while now. His warging has been so vastly underused lately at times it should have been obvious to use it --a lot like Arya's faces -- that those powers may as well not even exist anymore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: doggyfizzle on May 13, 2019, 03:57:51 PM
I wonder now with Cersei dead if there will be any resolution to all the money she borrowed from the Iron Bank?  Maybe one of the scrolls that Varys sent off will make it there?  I mean she must have used a ton of the Bank's money to fund the Golden Company right?  But since that plot line has basically just been ignored, my guess for the last episode is this:

1) Dany goes back to Mereen where people actually like her
2) Tyrion becomes the Imp King of King's Landing
3) Bronn is head of the Kingsguard
4) Arya goes back to Bravos (my prediction about her killing Cersei with Jamie's face not coming true really bums me out)
5) Sansa heads back to Winterfell, maybe shacking up with Robin Arryn
6) Davos goes to live at Dragonstone
7) Jon heads north to go live with the Wildlings
8) Bran gets himself planted in the Godswood in Winterfell
9) Yara becomes Queen of the Iron Born and conquers Casterly Rock, since the Lannisters have effectively been wiped out
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 13, 2019, 05:00:47 PM
I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 13, 2019, 05:34:00 PM
I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Pretty much.  It's much easier to build satisfying characters in the 'building the world out' part of story telling, b/c your plot is still flexible and your cast and world aren't as big.  But after thousands of pages and tons of additional characters and events, you then face the challenge of making all those parts work for plot purposes, so the actual story can make sense. And that means 'building back down/in' to a degree. By definition, as you write toward a conclusion of plot, the options of action and decision for each character become limited by plot logistics in a way that can really clash with their previous character development.

It is really obvious that with Jamie, for example, his main character arc (of some self actualization and identity separation from Cersei) came into conflict with the thematic and plot needs of the story. Jamie was a villain (later an anti-hero) in the series, who was always going to die.  He HAD to. And he had to die in association with Cersei (somehow).  But Martin developed his character in such a way that we could root for him to do heroic things, and sometimes he DID heroic things, and it makes sense he should die doing something at least sort of self-sacrificial. So he left Cersei to go fight in the north, which makes sense for plot and character.  To be consistent with his character arc, he should have died there after bonding in some way with Brienne (not necessarily sleeping with her). Thematically, perhaps he should have died defending Bran. But b/c thematically he has to be 'punished' and plot-wise he has to die in association with Cersei, he then had to travel BACK to her, which was awkward to plot.  And once he got there, the show runners couldn't think of anything for him to do except die with her (I think they should have had him mercy-kill her), AND they had a secondary antagonist hanging around that needed some kind of 'closure', so they made the two of them fight for no particular reason.

I'm pretty sure this is the problem Martin faces writing the books as well, which is why I am doubtful he'll finish them. And even if he does, he's unlikely to be able to fix the things that are irritating the show viewers.  In a way, Martin's skill at characterization and character-building have bitten him in the ass and have overwhelmed his ability to force the characters to do what the plot probably requires.  I'm glad I'm not a writer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 13, 2019, 05:48:51 PM
I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Pretty much.  It's much easier to build satisfying characters in the 'building the world out' part of story telling, b/c your plot is still flexible and your cast and world aren't as big.  But after thousands of pages and tons of additional characters and events, you then face the challenge of making all those parts work for plot purposes, so the actual story can make sense. And that means 'building back down/in' to a degree. By definition, as you write toward a conclusion of plot, the options of action and decision for each character become limited by plot logistics in a way that can really clash with their previous character development.

It is really obvious that with Jamie, for example, his main character arc (of some self actualization and identity separation from Cersei) came into conflict with the thematic and plot needs of the story. Jamie was a villain (later an anti-hero) in the series, who was always going to die.  He HAD to. And he had to die in association with Cersei (somehow).  But Martin developed his character in such a way that we could root for him to do heroic things, and sometimes he DID heroic things, and it makes sense he should die doing something at least sort of self-sacrificial. So he left Cersei to go fight in the north, which makes sense for plot and character.  To be consistent with his character arc, he should have died there after bonding in some way with Brienne (not necessarily sleeping with her). Thematically, perhaps he should have died defending Bran. But b/c thematically he has to be 'punished' and plot-wise he has to die in association with Cersei, he then had to travel BACK to her, which was awkward to plot.  And once he got there, the show runners couldn't think of anything for him to do except die with her (I think they should have had him mercy-kill her), AND they had a secondary antagonist hanging around that needed some kind of 'closure', so they made the two of them fight for no particular reason.

I'm pretty sure this is the problem Martin faces writing the books as well, which is why I am doubtful he'll finish them. And even if he does, he's unlikely to be able to fix the things that are irritating the show viewers.  In a way, Martin's skill at characterization and character-building have bitten him in the ass and have overwhelmed his ability to force the characters to do what the plot probably requires.  I'm glad I'm not a writer.

Agreed. I, too, do not think he will finish them.

And also, can I just say how irritating I find the end of the Jamie/Brienne arc? I mean, I'm okay that they slept together. But what I HATE is the implication (or at least the conclusion everyone seems to have come to) that Brienne is in love with him? Why does her character have to eventually be reduced to a lovesick, rejected lonelyheart? There were ways to play that which would have her extremely distraught because she knows he's riding to his death, that don't reduce her to a sad girl who thought the guy who danced with her at homecoming was asking her to go steady. UGH.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 13, 2019, 06:03:40 PM
I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Pretty much.  It's much easier to build satisfying characters in the 'building the world out' part of story telling, b/c your plot is still flexible and your cast and world aren't as big.  But after thousands of pages and tons of additional characters and events, you then face the challenge of making all those parts work for plot purposes, so the actual story can make sense. And that means 'building back down/in' to a degree. By definition, as you write toward a conclusion of plot, the options of action and decision for each character become limited by plot logistics in a way that can really clash with their previous character development.

It is really obvious that with Jamie, for example, his main character arc (of some self actualization and identity separation from Cersei) came into conflict with the thematic and plot needs of the story. Jamie was a villain (later an anti-hero) in the series, who was always going to die.  He HAD to. And he had to die in association with Cersei (somehow).  But Martin developed his character in such a way that we could root for him to do heroic things, and sometimes he DID heroic things, and it makes sense he should die doing something at least sort of self-sacrificial. So he left Cersei to go fight in the north, which makes sense for plot and character.  To be consistent with his character arc, he should have died there after bonding in some way with Brienne (not necessarily sleeping with her). Thematically, perhaps he should have died defending Bran. But b/c thematically he has to be 'punished' and plot-wise he has to die in association with Cersei, he then had to travel BACK to her, which was awkward to plot.  And once he got there, the show runners couldn't think of anything for him to do except die with her (I think they should have had him mercy-kill her), AND they had a secondary antagonist hanging around that needed some kind of 'closure', so they made the two of them fight for no particular reason.

I'm pretty sure this is the problem Martin faces writing the books as well, which is why I am doubtful he'll finish them. And even if he does, he's unlikely to be able to fix the things that are irritating the show viewers.  In a way, Martin's skill at characterization and character-building have bitten him in the ass and have overwhelmed his ability to force the characters to do what the plot probably requires.  I'm glad I'm not a writer.

Agreed. I, too, do not think he will finish them.

And also, can I just say how irritating I find the end of the Jamie/Brienne arc? I mean, I'm okay that they slept together. But what I HATE is the implication (or at least the conclusion everyone seems to have come to) that Brienne is in love with him? Why does her character have to eventually be reduced to a lovesick, rejected lonelyheart? There were ways to play that which would have her extremely distraught because she knows he's riding to his death, that don't reduce her to a sad girl who thought the guy who danced with her at homecoming was asking her to go steady. UGH.

I might be mis-remembering, but I think she was in love with him in the books but never anticipated any reciprocation (like her love for Renly Baratheon).  But  I agree that tonally, their 'ship culmination was a little off.  I loved the knighting/fighting for the north part.  And I'd be ok with them sleeping together, I guess.  One thing that I expected them to touch on...in the books, I believe, Jamie has never slept with anyone but Cersei, and highlighting that would have made that scene work better. But then her breakdown when he left I found touching, but a little out of character. Also, it leaves her emotionally jilted before he goes off to die, which sucks, I totally agree. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: StarBright on May 13, 2019, 07:28:35 PM
Who is the potential Lannister baby? Jamie/Brienne?

The Game is loosely based on the War of the Roses between the Yorks and the Lancasters.

- The main Lancaster branch became extinct during the War.
- Henry of Tudor married Elizabeth of York.
- The Tudors ruled peacefully for the next 120 years.

That sounds like a Gendry + Arya throne. Seems unlikely though.


Interesting! I'd read that it was based on War of the Roses but honestly thought more  of Tyrion and Sansa in the Henry VII and Elizabeth of York roles (but maybe that was because they were already dynastically married a few seasons ago). Arya and Gendry does make more sense on a 1-1 comparison, but doesn't quite feel right to me.

I did mean Jaime/Brienne - especially now because didn't Bran tell Jaime that he was needed at Winterfell (which was why Bran didn't out him as the pusher)? Jaime didn't really do all that much except sleep with Brienne while he was there (I mean, he obviously fought, but didn't turn the tide of battle or anything). Of course, at this point, that could have also just been awful writing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Zola. on May 14, 2019, 02:36:43 AM
HBO offered the directors more money and time to finish it off properly, but they were not interested in doing more than this season. Burnt out maybe. 

It's all on the finale now, they have a big mess to clear up. I hope they don't just do another long battle and spend more attention on dealing with Dany quickly and then do some satisfying wrapping up character loose ends. We don't need more battles, really..

Highly unlikely though. A show as detailed like this can never please everyone, everyone has their own ideas of how it should go down, but you have no say.  I have still enjoyed it a lot, but last night was a bit disappointing in just how destructive it became for the civilians etc. Maybe GRRM's point was to show war is just bad business for all. 

Roll on the finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 14, 2019, 06:51:26 AM
Again, I think the plot lines are fine, but everything just feels so...rushed. Everyone has already covered it here, but Dany's turn to Mad Queen is the perfect example -- I thoroughly enjoyed that twist in the tale (you know what I mean), but it could have been laid so much better.

My dream scenario would have been:

Season 7 -- culminates in the Loot Train Battle (battle could have been around episode 8, then fallout of Lannisters realizing the dragons are real, what they will do, etc. after)
Season 8 -- culminates in the beyond the wall stuff (would have given time for all the movement...imagine Dany going to rescue them after that culminated over multiple episodes)
Season 9 -- culminates in the Battle of Winterfell (more politics have rallying the North, Cersei's motivations, more of these people not trusting Dany)
Season 10 -- culminates in Dany's sack of King's Landing and the fallout (could have really tied up Dany's motivations for her turn).

I think this would have made for excellent TV, and would have allowed the show to be more thorough with the character's motives.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Noodle on May 14, 2019, 07:19:39 AM
I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Interesting! I think there might be something to that. I think one of the frustrations for me has been that there were earlier seasons that dragged (Season 2, specifically...the only major character death was Renly Baratheon and it was a lot of wandering around and table-setting) and now we are rushing through a lot of good stuff. But I try to remember that HBO at that point probably thought they were going to get more story out of GRRM so they couldn't plan out the series as a whole.

I wonder if Jon Snow actually ends up destroying the Iron Throne and nobody rules Westeros as a whole. I mean, I don't see any reason there HAS to be a King of Westeros...we've seen plenty of smaller city-states that seem to be perfectly happy and prosperous. Obviously power abhors a vacuum, but at this point it seems like most of the possible contenders outside of our two Targaryens have been wiped out given the decimation of all the big families. I'm sure there are a lot of openings for the Ser Bronns of the world to swoop in and grab territory, or maybe subsidiary branches of the big families, but it would take awhile for those contenders to consolidate power. Apparently there are some spin-offs in development at HBO--it would be interesting if there was a series a generation in the future (so as to start with a new set of characters) about what happens next.

My other question, which maybe book people can answer, is how does the Winter affect Westeros as a whole? Clearly the North is deeply impacted and needs to plan for it, but are the areas further south affected? Nobody seems to be talking about it at the moment other than Sansa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on May 14, 2019, 07:55:13 AM
My other question, which maybe book people can answer, is how does the Winter affect Westeros as a whole? Clearly the North is deeply impacted and needs to plan for it, but are the areas further south affected? Nobody seems to be talking about it at the moment other than Sansa.

It gets colder. Snow falls as far south as King's Landing, winter officially starts in the epilogue of book 5.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on May 14, 2019, 08:09:55 AM
Wasn't it snowing when Jaime left Kings Landing at end of Season 7? I'm pretty sure it was.

And at this point, I don't see how Dany can be unseated. It would be stupid. She has armies loyal to her, and her only, and she has a dragon that wrecked the biggest/best fighting force left on the entire continent. Even if (and especially if!) she is killed, all Hell should break lose! How do you end a series with all Hell breaking lose? (maybe you can?)

I mean, the Dothraki and UnSullied have nowhere to go, they can't get home. What are they going to do if Dany dies, just peacefully and seamlessly blend in with the Westeros population? All they know is war and killing. If Dany dies, they kill everyone (who is left).

And I've read some theories that Drogan might "defect" to Jon, but...where was the evidence of this in Episode 5? Drogan didn't exactly show any hesitation about roasting children. Why would he "gain a conscience" and flip sides all of a sudden?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 14, 2019, 08:21:14 AM
Wasn't it snowing when Jaime left Kings Landing at end of Season 7? I'm pretty sure it was.

And at this point, I don't see how Dany can be unseated. It would be stupid. She has armies loyal to her, and her only, and she has a dragon that wrecked the biggest/best fighting force left on the entire continent. Even if (and especially if!) she is killed, all Hell should break lose! How do you end a series with all Hell breaking lose? (maybe you can?)

I mean, the Dothraki and UnSullied have nowhere to go, they can't get home. What are they going to do if Dany dies, just peacefully and seamlessly blend in with the Westeros population? All they know is war and killing. If Dany dies, they kill everyone (who is left).

And I've read some theories that Drogan might "defect" to Jon, but...where was the evidence of this in Episode 5? Drogan didn't exactly show any hesitation about roasting children. Why would he "gain a conscience" and flip sides all of a sudden?

I agree with all of this.

And yet... I'm afraid that the writers will do it anyway.

By "afraid," I mean that Nick is right -- the consequence of deposing her or or killing her (and let's face it, she'd have to be killed) are basically what he outlines above. But Dany does need to be removed. My worry is that the show will do that... and then kind of just pretend it's gonna be okay?

If they did kill her and have fucking mayhem ensue... very logical, but a hell of an unsatisfying end to the series.

I just don't know. This show, man...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: runbikerun on May 14, 2019, 08:31:08 AM
Wasn't it snowing when Jaime left Kings Landing at end of Season 7? I'm pretty sure it was.

And at this point, I don't see how Dany can be unseated. It would be stupid. She has armies loyal to her, and her only, and she has a dragon that wrecked the biggest/best fighting force left on the entire continent. Even if (and especially if!) she is killed, all Hell should break lose! How do you end a series with all Hell breaking lose? (maybe you can?)

I mean, the Dothraki and UnSullied have nowhere to go, they can't get home. What are they going to do if Dany dies, just peacefully and seamlessly blend in with the Westeros population? All they know is war and killing. If Dany dies, they kill everyone (who is left).

And I've read some theories that Drogan might "defect" to Jon, but...where was the evidence of this in Episode 5? Drogan didn't exactly show any hesitation about roasting children. Why would he "gain a conscience" and flip sides all of a sudden?

I think it's that personalised loyalty that dooms her. Nobody is loyal to her *as the rightful queen of Westeros*, with the possible exception of Jon Snow. The Unsullied are loyal to the Breaker of Chains; the Dothraki are loyal to their Khaleesi; the North is loyal to who their king says they should be loyal to. If you can kill her, or get someone else to kill her, then you don't have to deal with any kind of existing power structure: you can stake your claim in a landscape devoid of anyone who can impose an existing model. This isn't like regicide in an established monarchy where all you do is speed up the transfer to the next in line to the throne: kill Dany and all seven kingdoms can assert their own independence, and the Unsullied and Dothraki won't particularly care. There are dozens of people who could profit from her death and become kings and queens in their own rights.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: StarBright on May 14, 2019, 09:17:28 AM
While I'm disappointed with the flow of the show in season 8, the only thing that would really kill me is it if all ends up hinging on Bran (either as King or something mystical).

. . .
I just don't know. This show, man...

^ yep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 14, 2019, 10:25:50 AM
I agree with the comment above

Nuclear weapons - Dany only
Strongest army - Dany (unsullied plus the returned from the dead Dothraki)

Unless Dany has some massive self reflective moment and then takes her own life, or peacefully steps aside (not consistent with character) I don’t see how she is removed.

Even if Jon amassed all of Westeros to support his claim he’d have to kill every unsullied and Dothraki as there are no fleets left to ship them off shore. Jon isn’t going to kill the entire armies that were the shield of man only 2 episodes ago.

But with the Iron throne destroyed Dany has no throne to take. She gave Stormsend away already and I don’t think she’d seek to take it back.

I am left with a Dany commits suicide, or Dany decides Westeros is not for her and flies back to Essos with the Dothraki and Unsullied heading back in their own time.

With no Kings Landing, I’d say that Westeros is ruled from Winterfell by Jon and Sansa as brother and sister, not married, no incest.

I am curious to see what happens today Arya.

Over a number of episodes Arya slowly evolved from a revengeful killer to realising there was better ways to spend ones life, but after all the death she saw in Kings Landing, I wonder whether she decides to resume serving the many faced god...maybe sneakily kill Dany and then take her face for a while to ensure peace, and then tell the unsullied they are no longer needed...... either that or she will go to Gendry at Strorms End and pursue a new course of life.

Tyrion will finally realise he is shit at being a Hand and return to brothels with Bron.

A further thought...If Arya fakes being Dany, Drogon will know the difference so she would need to kill Dany in collaboration with Jon, so Jon can kill Drogon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: runbikerun on May 14, 2019, 10:37:01 AM
Dany has nothing to fear from any army, but everything to fear from an assassination. Whatever your cause - Dornish independence, Northern independence, a splitting of the Seven Kingdoms, or simply grabbing a castle for yourself and worrying about legitimating your claim later - it's now a single heartbeat away. Unlike under almost every previous holder of the Iron Throne, there's no succession plan and no power structure in place. Kill Dany and you can reach for whatever revolution you want.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 14, 2019, 10:53:14 AM
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced either Jon or Dany have to go next episode (at the hands of one another) for some resolution.  If Dany kills Jon and his better claim, what's one more person added to the six-figure killed list and who could really cry foul at that point?  If that happens I could see Tyrion going as well for releasing Jamie.  If Jon kills Dany*, there could be further potential drama with Dothraki (but I doubt it since they respect whoever kills and has power not to mention I couldn't name you one Dothraki character right now) and Unsullied but not as it pertains to the throne, which would I think be fairly drama-less and either be Jon himself, Gendry, Sansa (though she seems staunchly North-only at this point still with the Vale in her pocket), or maybe a wildcard like Bran since I was surprised he wasn't eliminated in dramatic fashion a few eps ago - seems odd to keep him around story-wise as a rolling wikipedia only.  Eliminate Jon from that list if you want if Grey Worm takes him out but I couldn't see more mayhem beyond that.  Maybe there is no single ruler at all and it goes to oligarchy.  Throw Brienne in the Kings/Queensguard, make Sam an important maester, keep Davos around for advice, and move on.  Uncertain about Drogon, maybe he just scoffs at the silly humans and moves to Valyria.

* Tyrion's fate is much more up in the air in this scenario as the timing matters of when she would die - as whoever rules at end if not Dany wouldn't have a reason to kill him but he could still die if she doesn't die until later in the episode.

Not sure about Arya - was that an "ashen" horse of the Apocalypse that she rode out on?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ncornilsen on May 14, 2019, 11:05:19 AM
I think Bronn's talk of former cutthroats ruling the world was prophetic - I predict he will become king of westeros at the end. because reasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on May 14, 2019, 11:10:15 AM
Feeling a bit surly. Cheered by this, would have been cooler:

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-better-way-game-of-thrones-could-have-arrived-at-this-1834720538
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Psychstache on May 14, 2019, 11:33:31 AM
I wonder if Bran could warg into Drogon, and kill Dany that way?


I've lost the belief he's going to do anything like that. He's been useless as tits on a boar for a while now. His warging has been so vastly underused lately at times it should have been obvious to use it --a lot like Arya's faces -- that those powers may as well not even exist anymore.

This right here might be the best use of Bran yet!

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/14/18618634/game-of-thrones-bran-kings-landing-burned-daenerys
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Samuel on May 14, 2019, 12:19:35 PM
Feeling a bit surly. Cheered by this, would have been cooler:

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-better-way-game-of-thrones-could-have-arrived-at-this-1834720538

That would have been so much better.

The last season (or two, really) just feel like they took a rushed first draft and went ahead and shot it. Maybe they had to fire all the writers because the CGI budget used up the whole 90 million (the estimates for the cost of season 8).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 14, 2019, 12:35:04 PM
Jon when he finds out they blew a $90M budget this season, but didn't have enough left for him to pet his wolf good bye:

(https://i.redd.it/nptltk8c85y21.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: techwiz on May 14, 2019, 12:46:41 PM
Jon when he finds out they blew a $90M budget this season, but didn't have enough left for him to pet his wolf good bye:

Jon might going back north above the wall to live with his direwolf Ghost after all this is over, maybe find another Ygritte.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on May 19, 2019, 08:53:35 PM
Jon might going back north above the wall to live with his direwolf Ghost after all this is over, maybe find another Ygritte.   

techwiz for the win!

Damn if they didn't go and give us all a happily ever after ending (well, what passes for one in Westeros)!!!!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on May 19, 2019, 11:51:50 PM
Jon Snow, the Queen Slayer...

not our Mustachian @Jon_Snow, of course.

PS. Somewhat fitting that Sansa was the objector to Bran, in that she is most realpolitik type of the remaining lords/ladies. Also interesting that Bran's rise is sort of like Rome's Emperor Claudius.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on May 20, 2019, 07:04:40 AM
6/10. I am disappointed but it's not like I'm going to petition for a new 8th season. We have real life dragons to deal with.

MVP: Ummm...I guess Tyrion? He pushed Jon to act, and he pushed the council to act. Killing Dany and picking a new ruler were two things that had to happen, and he forced the issue on both. Plus, he's the hand again (for what, the third time?)

I'll say this, casting/acting we good to the bitter end. No complaints there. I would anticipate most of the cast are already in new projects. Peter Dinklage could carry all sorts of shows. The guy who plays Davos is amazing. And would I follow Arya in a spin-off? Yeah I would, assuming new writers are involved.

Biggest issues I had:

1) So...is Drogan like human-level intelligent? Are we to infer that he understood why Jon killed Dany, and that he further made the mental leap that Jon was not really "responsible" for Dany's death, but rather Dany's lust for the iron throne had caused her downfall? I mean...is that what we saw? I knew they had to "write Drogan off" (see my comments from last week), but having him flying off after having such a philosophical moment was sort of confusing and weak to me.

2) When did the Dothraki get so...civilized? Two weeks or so after their Queen has been murdered, they are chumming around on the docks like "This ain't no thing". I would have expected plundering, rape, etc., (i.e. that they would have been a continuing problem in Westeros, especially as they appear leaderless)

3) So the unSullied are going to...what? Go to some island and inhabit it? I guess some islands might welcome thousands of former slaves turned murderous butchers (who can't procreate) but the proposition wouldn't seem so appealing to me.

4) BRAN? "Who has had a better story?" Come on Tyrion, Arya has had a better story! Sansa has had a better story! Hell, Brienne and Davos had better stories! Freakin' Podric had a better story.

Things I liked: Sansa claiming the North, Arya doing her own thing, and Tyrion surrounding himself the best surviving characters. Just seeing Brienne, Sam, and Davos at the table tells the viewer that there is going to be some wise stewardship for years to come. And Bronn will keep it interesting.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 20, 2019, 07:29:57 AM
6/10. I am disappointed but it's not like I'm going to petition for a new 8th season. We have real life dragons to deal with.

MVP: Ummm...I guess Tyrion? He pushed Jon to act, and he pushed the council to act. Killing Dany and picking a new ruler were two things that had to happen, and he forced the issue on both. Plus, he's the hand again (for what, the third time?)

I'll say this, casting/acting we good to the bitter end. No complaints there. I would anticipate most of the cast are already in new projects. Peter Dinklage could carry all sorts of shows. The guy who plays Davos is amazing. And would I follow Arya in a spin-off? Yeah I would, assuming new writers are involved.

Biggest issues I had:

1) So...is Drogan like human-level intelligent? Are we to infer that he understood why Jon killed Dany, and that he further made the mental leap that Jon was not really "responsible" for Dany's death, but rather Dany's lust for the iron throne had caused her downfall? I mean...is that what we saw? I knew they had to "write Drogan off" (see my comments from last week), but having him flying off after having such a philosophical moment was sort of confusing and weak to me.

2) When did the Dothraki get so...civilized? Two weeks or so after their Queen has been murdered, they are chumming around on the docks like "This ain't no thing". I would have expected plundering, rape, etc., (i.e. that they would have been a continuing problem in Westeros, especially as they appear leaderless)

3) So the unSullied are going to...what? Go to some island and inhabit it? I guess some islands might welcome thousands of former slaves turned murderous butchers (who can't procreate) but the proposition wouldn't seem so appealing to me.

4) BRAN? "Who has had a better story?" Come on Tyron, Arya has had a better story! Sansa has had a better story! Hell, Brienne and Davos had better stories! Freakin' Podric had a better story.

Things I liked: Sansa claiming the North, Arya doing her own thing, and Tyrion surrounding himself the best surviving characters. Just seeing Brienne, Sam, and Davos at the table tells the viewer that there is going to be some wise stewardship for years to come. And Bronn will keep it interesting.

All your WTFs are my WTFs, too. I spent last week having conversations with Mr. Kris that went: “Well, Dany has to die, but then that opens up a whole shitshow, because now they have a an angry, out of control dragon, and Grey Worm on the rampage, and this huge army of dothraki and unsullied to contend with. Those are huge problems that won’t just go away.”

I guess they just... went away.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on May 20, 2019, 07:54:32 AM
It feels like the best ending that we could have expected given the writing of the past couple seasons.

Jon Snow turned out to be The Prince That Was Promised after all! He tempered his sword in ice (fighting the White Walkers), killing a lion (helping bring the Lannisters down), and eventually through the heart of his lover (Daenerys). He just never got to become King (unless the wildlings recognize him as King Beyond the Wall).

Bran saying he came south to become king then telling Jon he was exactly where he needed to be made it sound like he was playing the Game of Thrones all along. I was hoping that we'd see him viewing some point the past needed to get to this point, like Ned's beheading or Rheagar running off with Lyanna; this would open up the possibility for an evil Bran/3ER plotting to take over the seven kingdoms. I'd bet the Ironborn and Dorne rebel within a few years, considering he gave the North independence.

I kinda hated how after Daenerys' death it turned into a comedy, especially the line about Tyrion not being mentioned in The Song of Ice and Fire; it was clearly a joke for the show watchers, made absolutely zero sense in the story considering how the War of the Five Kings arguably started with Tyrion's kidnapping.

Overall, I have many thoughts, but definitely look forward to (hopefully) reading how it all ends from GRRM himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 20, 2019, 09:04:58 AM
Overall, I have many thoughts, but definitely look forward to (hopefully) reading how it all ends from GRRM himself.
Yes!  I am very excited to read the next novel.  No idea if the 7th will ever be released by him but generally more is better and the 6th book would be better than nothing.

Weird season but it ended alright.  I don't mind a bit of fan service that has resolution for most storylines as an ending, it wasn't the most exciting episode but I think that's sorta inevitable.  I can't believe the maneuvering the Starks were able to accomplish, though!  They get the king AND get to be independent with their own queen while all the other kingdoms remain united?  Odd Yara was okay with that.

BTW, did I miss something at the beginning where Grey Worm executed that guy?  Jon and Davos are like - alright we're going to go to talk to the queen about this.  Grey Worm seemingly stays behind to further be awful to those other prisoners and then when Jon is walking up steps, Grey Worm is already there at the top?  I get Jon was "dramatically walking" but felt like a scene was missing to explain how Jon got there at the steps after Grey Worm.  Not like this was integral to the show, I just had to do a double-take.

The Drogon resolution was tricky.  If he flames Jon, seems he would likely stay put and continue to wreak havoc.  But must be something about being a dragonrider and/or a Targaryen (or just now that Dany was dead and Drogon changed) that Drogon just felt like retiring to Valyria or wherever and chilling for awhile.

Jon's whole ending though does give rise to many more questions for both the Night's Watch and Bran - but just fun food for thought.  I did think it was beautiful how the new "children of the forest" are returning north and plants are now growing and all that. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 20, 2019, 09:24:40 AM
Who has a better story? Jon.  Fucking Jon. He was murdered and brought back to life, that is infinitely better than being crippled. He was lord commander of the night's watch.  He is the king in the north. He's a fucking legit Targaryen and heir to the iron throne.

Also the north is just independent now?  But not the Iron Islands or Dorne? Yara didn't realize that was an option until Sansa did it.  Once you say aye there are no take backs I guess.

And Tyrion not being mentioned? The man credited with murdering King Jofferey, the man who murdered Tywin Lannister arguably the most powerful man in the world, the man who served as hand to two monarchs is not mentioned?  He did tons of other stuff that I didn't even mention.

I feel very unsatisfied with this entire season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on May 20, 2019, 09:25:56 AM
For those of us still digesting the finale, here's a funny idea for a GOT spin-off posted today --- https://www.reasonsmysoniscrying.com/ (https://www.reasonsmysoniscrying.com/).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 20, 2019, 09:34:33 AM
Pretty decent ending, thematically, IMO, and much happier for a lot of the characters than I expected.  I had actually never considered Bran becoming king until this very thread, but that works fine thematically, esp with Jon and Arya going outside the kingdom. 

As I commented last week, reconciling things that are thematically satisfying with logical plot doesn't always work, and didn't always work here.  I agree that Bran is liable to be dealing with rebellions within 10 years or so, 'cause that's the way these things roll.  That's likely to happen no matter who is on the throne, though.  I'm not too bothered b/c I'm more interested in themes and characters than plot, but criticisms noted above are certainly valid.

LOVED Drogon melting the iron throne; wasn't expecting that.  But man, those poor dragons. I have felt so crappy for them most of this series, and never more than last night.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on May 20, 2019, 09:54:15 AM
Quote
that are thematically satisfying

Honest question, what theme is being satisfied in this finale?

The show HAD themes but I think they got thrown out in S6 with the characters once all the narrative pruning started.



One more for the WTF pile: None of the Southern lords reacted to talk of an army of the dead or the 3ER. Tyrion says “He became the 3ER” and they all nod along as if they’ve been watching the show with the audience from the beginning.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 20, 2019, 10:03:12 AM
What made last night so frustrating was knowing in the back of your mind that the writers just completely botched this on two fronts:

(1) Sorry for repeating this, but the last two seasons should have been ten episodes, no questions asked.

(2) What piled onto this error was that the writers chose cinematic drama (battles and CGI) over storytelling.  Battle of Blackwater Bay, Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards were all less than half an episode, and those are some of the highest ranked episodes of all time. Yet in Season 8, we spent two entire episodes in a six episode season on battles. It just seemed so incredibly unnecessary when there was so many loose ends to tie up.

In Season 7, imagine if we had a couple more episodes to set up the Loot Train Battle -- more accurate movements, more ability to lay out character's motives, perhaps more groundwork for Dany eventually going mad. And then imagine if we had a couple more episodes for the Beyond the Wall action, which would have given more time to set everything up.

In Season 8, imagine if we had two or three episodes leading up to Dany going mad; and then a couple episodes with Dany, John, Tyrian, etc. wrestling with the destruction and future plans, and then a couple episodes to select a new king.

The battles were certainly entertaining, but the greatest scene in Season 8 was Jon and Tyrian talking about what to do moving forward.  THAT is Game of Thrones -- two people talking in a room about their actions that will have consequences far beyond their own footprint. GoT abandoned those scenes for the sake of battle porn.

Seasons 1-6, and especially seasons 3 and 4, are arguably the greatest TV productions in history. They built their own high standards, and then they fell way short of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Rimu05 on May 20, 2019, 10:05:56 AM
Well, that was terrible.

I guess the plan is to leave us with nothing.

By nothing, do you mean nothing in terms of quality of the show?  That's fair, though I'm not as irritated as many people seem to be, given that I thought the author's plotting started going off the rails in book 4, and to pretty much complete shit in book 5. So the show has sometimes been an improvement.

Or did you mean in terms of nothing and no one happy and prosperous at the end?  I feel like it was inevitable from book 3 that this series was not going to end well for any of the main characters. It's just slow-mo emotional torture to get invested in any of them (which, of course, I am).

I will give the show credit for surprising me: the only character I ever was absolutely sure would live through the series was Arya, and on my short list of 'very likely to live', Varys was at the head of the line.  Oops.   Bronn is my other one, so we'll see how that comes out...

I don't watch the show but get the spoilers and watch clips but I really hope the books don't go this way and yes, book 4 left me thinking WTF? However, I felt book 5 redeemed book 4 in that I finally could see where we were going. I will admit though, a few useless characters in both books that took up to much focus yet died. Normally ASOIAF deaths leave me speechless, these just left me thinking. What did this guy do other than sail the sea?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 20, 2019, 10:06:48 AM
What made last night so frustrating was knowing in the back of your mind that the writers just completely botched this on two fronts:

(1) Sorry for repeating this, but the last two seasons should have been ten episodes, no questions asked.

(2) What piled onto this error was that the writers chose cinematic drama (battles and CGI) over storytelling.  Battle of Blackwater Bay, Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards were all less than half an episode, and those are some of the highest ranked episodes of all time. Yet in Season 8, we spent two entire episodes in a six episode season on battles. It just seemed so incredibly unnecessary when there was so many loose ends to tie up.

In Season 7, imagine if we had a couple more episodes to set up the Loot Train Battle -- more accurate movements, more ability to lay out character's motives, perhaps more groundwork for Dany eventually going mad. And then imagine if we had a couple more episodes for the Beyond the Wall action, which would have given more time to set everything up.

In Season 8, imagine if we had two or three episodes leading up to Dany going mad; and then a couple episodes with Dany, John, Tyrian, etc. wrestling with the destruction and future plans, and then a couple episodes to select a new king.

The battles were certainly entertaining, but the greatest scene in Season 8 was Jon and Tyrian talking about what to do moving forward.  THAT is Game of Thrones -- two people talking in a room about their actions that will have consequences far beyond their own footprint. GoT abandoned those scenes for the sake of battle porn.

Seasons 1-6, and especially seasons 3 and 4, are arguably the greatest TV productions in history. They built their own high standards, and then they fell way short of them.

I completely agree. This is almost exactly what I've said to Mr. Kris numerous times. With ten episodes in seasons 7 and 8, pretty much all the big problems could have been resolved. (That, and if they had realized back in season 4 or 5 that they needed to prune narrative threads that were not going to end up going anywhere.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 20, 2019, 10:34:47 AM
Bran: I don't want.
Also Bran: Why do you think I'm here?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 20, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
Quote
that are thematically satisfying

Honest question, what theme is being satisfied in this finale?

The show HAD themes but I think they got thrown out in S6 with the characters once all the narrative pruning started.



One more for the WTF pile: None of the Southern lords reacted to talk of an army of the dead or the 3ER. Tyrion says “He became the 3ER” and they all nod along as if they’ve been watching the show with the audience from the beginning.

Well, I'm sure not all the themes/character arcs hang together, but I feel like most of the main characters' do/did (some issues with Jamie, as I discussed earlier).  Keep in mind it's been years since I read any of the books, though, so it's certainly open to debate.

Jon started out feeling like an outsider from his family, then found a place north of the wall, then got drawn into politics against his will causing multiple bad outcomes (he'd be a just king, but probably make bad practical decisions as a ruler of Westeros b/c he always overestimates peoples' moral character), then discovered he actually IS an outsider within his family (in terms of not actually being sibling) and ended by avoiding politics and going back north of the wall. 

Arya started out an adventurer rebelling against her place in society/role of daughter of a noble house, had a long character arc of struggling against being consumed by vengeance and sociopathy, and ended being a more mature adventurer still unwilling to take on a traditional role by marrying or being involved in the politics of her noble house. 

Sansa started out immature, self involved, and consumed by romantic fantasies about the 'trappings' of being a daughter of a noble house, had a character arc that systematically shredded those notions and taught her about practical, cold-blooded politics. She ended up very suited to ruling by skill set and cunning (in any capacity, but certainly in the north), but I think questions remain about her mental state (probably that would be clear in the hypothetical books).  Sansa and Dany had somewhat parallel character arcs, with Sansa appearing to retain sanity and learn practical diplomatic realpolitik from her experiences, while Dany went the other way, going insane and developing a god complex. 

Dany - Her arc was strongly foreshadowed throughout the books and show as a possibility.  I always assumed that either Dany or Sansa (but not both) would go insane or turn 'villainous' at the end b/c of their similar arcs.

Cersei started out sociopathically self-involved, emotionally isolated except for Jamie, and viewing Jamie as an extension of herself. She was striving first for premiere place with her father, then premiere place for her children, and then finally for premiere place for herself.  As Jamie's character arc took him to a place of more individual identity and psychological separation from her, she lost her last remnant of human connection (symbolically, the last arguably good part of herself), and became fully self-destructive, as well as villainous. The other crucial part of her character was that, like Tyrion, she always thought she was a little smarter than she actually was, and her final plan for conquering Westeros wasn't as smart as she thought it was.  And she died having not learned very much at all, but in the arms of her only remaining human connection/narcissistic self-projection (Jamie).

Tyrion started cynical about politics and rulers, viewed with suspicion by others, thinking he was more clever than he sometimes was, and striving for respect from his family and other power brokers by attempting to play the political game at a high level. As he periodically gained and lost power through the story, his original cynical view of politics was mostly proven correct, and he learned he wasn't as clever at politics or judging character as he thought.  In the end, with his family finally out of the picture  and most of the kingdom ignorant of both his good and bad efforts/decisions on their behalf, he was wise enough to try to opt out of politics altogether, but (in accordance with his cynical view of things) was ordered back in (ironically, by the man he argued be put on the throne). Pretty fitting.

Bran was the first main character we ever met in the books IIRC (so it kind of makes sense that he's being set up to be the final 'hero' figure), and his viewpoint throughout has been of the observer and story-keeper and someone who sees many possibilities in the future, not just those pertaining to his own good. His early injury stripped him of his traditional power-broker position as son of a noble house. He seems to have his father's sense of moral justice and goodness, without his father's naivete about human nature (and possibly a better judgement about who makes good advisors). His character arc did not include as much direct trauma as most of the other main characters who could have (thematically speaking) reasonably ended up ruling, which means he's probably more mentally stable (ironic, right?) than the other likely rulers. He also seems to be one of the few characters that truly believes in the possibility of the future being truly new and good, and not just a bloody repeat of the past.  It seems fitting thematically that since the past was full of rulers taking and keeping the throne by bloody strife, that the series ends with the one person on it who can't fight (for himself) and has no stake in elevating any particular part of the kingdom above any other part. With Sansa ruling in the North, and no offspring to worry about, Bran is essentially free of obligation to any person, family, or house and can instead be obligated to the greater good.

Will it work out? My cynical side says 'no'.  But thematically, it's pretty satisfying.

Btw, IMO, it also would have been thematically satisfying to have 1) Jon and Dany married and co-ruling like Targaryeans of old, with Sansa going slowly power mad and looming as the main threat to future peace; 2) Dany on the throne, with the implication of endless war and misery on the horizon, and most of the other characters dead...probably by her hand; 3) Jon on the throne with plenty of support and the kingdom temporarily stable, but completely traumatized and miserable, with the implication that he's going to totally misjudge someone's character and get stabbed in the back (again). I've never been able to think of another ending that would be as satisfying as any of these four, but I'm happy to hear others' ideas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 20, 2019, 11:48:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXRhObOsfL8&feature=youtu.be

Season 7 Episode 3, skip to 1:06 for the quote

Bran:  I can never be lord of winterfell.  I can never be lord of anything.  I'm the three eyed raven. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moM00oXhmes

Season 8 Episode 6, skip to 2:46:

Tyrion: If we choose you, will you wear the crown?...

Bran: Why do you think I came all this way?

WHAT. THE. FUCK?  This makes no sense.  He can't be lord of anything, except he can be lord of the seven six kingdoms!?





Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: HPstache on May 20, 2019, 12:01:02 PM
I was not as disappointed with the first 5 episodes as many of you all here plus the rest of the internet seemed to be.  But this final episode really opened my eyes to how terrible the season really was.

Don't forget to cancel your HBO Now subscription, if you subscribed the day of the season opener, you'll be billed again tomorrow for another month.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 20, 2019, 12:03:15 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXRhObOsfL8&feature=youtu.be

Season 7 Episode 3, skip to 1:06 for the quote

Bran:  I can never be lord of winterfell.  I can never be lord of anything.  I'm the three eyed raven. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moM00oXhmes

Season 8 Episode 6, skip to 2:46:

Tyrion: If we choose you, will you wear the crown?...

Bran: Why do you think I came all this way?

WHAT. THE. FUCK?  This makes no sense.  He can't be lord of anything, except he can be lord of the seven six kingdoms!?

I guess? I can see the logic? He can't be lord of Winterfell because he's no longer a Stark of Winterfell.

But the Three Eyed Raven can be king. ??? And it was his destiny? IDK.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 20, 2019, 12:05:03 PM
I was not as disappointed with the first 5 episodes as many of you all here plus the rest of the internet seemed to be.  But this final episode really opened my eyes to how terrible the season really was.

Don't forget to cancel your HBO Now subscription, if you subscribed the day of the season opener, you'll be billed again tomorrow for another month.

Yea I over looked a lot of garbage from Season 7 and was still a fan boy and so hyped for season 8.  It retrospect the warning signs were there, and I was just in denial.   But season 8 really let me down.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/025/543/eca.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 20, 2019, 12:06:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXRhObOsfL8&feature=youtu.be

Season 7 Episode 3, skip to 1:06 for the quote

Bran:  I can never be lord of winterfell.  I can never be lord of anything.  I'm the three eyed raven. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moM00oXhmes

Season 8 Episode 6, skip to 2:46:

Tyrion: If we choose you, will you wear the crown?...

Bran: Why do you think I came all this way?

WHAT. THE. FUCK?  This makes no sense.  He can't be lord of anything, except he can be lord of the seven six kingdoms!?

I guess? I can see the logic? He can't be lord of Winterfell because he's no longer a Stark of Winterfell.

But the Three Eyed Raven can be king. ??? And it was his destiny? IDK.

He said he can't be lord of anything.  His title is literally: Bran the Broken, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Six Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 20, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cool Friend on May 20, 2019, 12:11:14 PM
Man I'm just grateful we got some quality shots of Tyrion arranging chairs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 20, 2019, 12:15:40 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Honestly, for me, it would have been okay if everything ended up in the exact same spot... if it hadn't been so damn rushed. Instead of a story, it started to feel like the showrunners just crossing plot items off their to-do list.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: never give up on May 20, 2019, 12:23:25 PM
Do you think some of the disappointment is actually masked by the fact that people are actually sad it’s over? Whenever I have been fully immersed into anything fictional I don’t think I’ve ever had an ending that has satisfied me. Even with something like sports, and my team has been successful and won a trophy, within an hour of winning, I’m kind of thinking, when is the next game?

Concluding something is fine but actually I enjoy the journey and not knowing what a fictional ending will be or whether my team will win or not, more than the actual ending/result.

There is no doubt the pacing of the last two series was miles off. There is no doubt that there were so many characters and plot lines developed that it became difficult to control them all. However it was beautifully shot, with some absolutely fantastic characters and one liners, and I have really enjoyed watching these last few years.

I am sad it’s over, but I do not believe any ending would have satisfied me. I preferred it when all the pieces were in play and there were more questions to ask than had been answered.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 20, 2019, 12:26:34 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Honestly, for me, it would have been okay if everything ended up in the exact same spot... if it hadn't been so damn rushed. Instead of a story, it started to feel like the showrunners just crossing plot items off their to-do list.

I agree with that, for sure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: bacchi on May 20, 2019, 12:28:19 PM
Man I'm just grateful we got some quality shots of Tyrion arranging chairs.

It reminds me of the Hobbit Part I where the adventurers spent an hour deciding what to pack.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Johnez on May 20, 2019, 12:50:32 PM
For those of us still digesting the finale, here's a funny idea for a GOT spin-off posted today --- https://www.reasonsmysoniscrying.com/ (https://www.reasonsmysoniscrying.com/).

Thank you for this site!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Rimu05 on May 20, 2019, 01:00:12 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

I must ask this of show watchers too. With no source material to work with, it would have been strange if the show was still top quality. The writers couldn't possibly have looked into GRRM's head to know what to do and even if he gave them some expectation as to where the show should head, it's completely different to the damn near 900 page book of details.

I still think the show poorly handled the Night King. If I was a watcher I would have raged for a week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: HPstache on May 20, 2019, 01:26:41 PM
As others have said, felt very rushed.  To me it was also somewhat obvious where the books left off and the producers came up with their own ending.  Obviously it was based on overarching themes that GRRM passed along to them, but it was clear that the planning was rushed and not well thought out.  I also felt that major plots and setups were never used even though it felt clear that they should be more significant.  Arya's face changing ability and the story of Bran just seemed so pointless (even though he did end up being king).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Psychstache on May 20, 2019, 01:36:09 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Prior to the start of this season, I envisioned a protracted conflict with the Army of the Undead. We make plans to halt the army, but have limited success. Maybe a couple of the NK's generals are off'ed and portions of the undead army are cut down to keep it manageable, but the living keep getting outmanuevered and keep falling back to the south, losing some folks along the way as we go. We have a final stand in King's Landing where all the living put there petty political squabbles aside for the good of humanity, unite together and....fall short and all die. The final shot of the season is the Night King walking through the Red Keep and coming to sit on the Iron Throne with our now blue eyed heroes standing around in his thrall. Fin.

Obviously nothing like that was ever going to happen, so I'll take Kris's answer: The ending was mostly fine, we just need more time to flesh out the arcs that get them there so we don't feel rushed.

Though I really dislike Bran and don't really care to see him King, but again I'm sure we could flesh that out more if S7 and 8 are full seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: doggyfizzle on May 20, 2019, 02:20:37 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

1) As others have said, the conflict between the living/Night King should have been drawn out, maybe over an entire season.  I mean a gigantic wall was built to keep the undead out a thousand years ago, all the Wildlings were fleeing south as this guy was gathering his army and then...poof...he's gone in a single episode.  It would have been great to even have a bit of dialog between him and Jon Snow or Bran.
2) No resolution with the Iron Bank, Dorne, Iron Islands, Mereen, etc.
3) I would have liked to see Nymeria (arya's direwolf) come back.  From what I remember in the books, she's out messing sh*t up in the Riverlands and it would have been cool to see her reunited with Arya.  I was hoping the direwolves would have had a little bit more "constant" presence in the show, but they took a back seat as the shift to CGI dragon battles to precedence.

The character development and scheming of the first 6 seasons was what made the show great for me, and this season seemed to disregard too much of what happened early on and just mis-mashed everything together (oh hello Edmure Tully and Robin Arryn) because so much was spent on CGI.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on May 20, 2019, 03:14:45 PM
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Noodle on May 20, 2019, 07:33:16 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Well, during the Battle of Winterfell, I would have liked to be able to see anything!

Actually, I didn't hate the season. I really liked the second episode, when they're all at Winterfell waiting for the army of the Night King to arrive. The Battle of Winterfell disappointed me, because I have always found their battle scenes to be incredibly compelling (even though in most movies I don't care for them), and while the battle against the Night King had spectacular moments (that scene where the Dothraki ride out with flaming swords and the all the lights just...go out), I didn't think the directors did as good a job creating a narrative throughline. I didn't even mind that the show killed off Daenarys, but the show skipped way too many steps between strong-willed ruler and genocide.

The one minor hope that didn't go anywhere was that I always thought Tyrion and Sansa would make a good pair (other than the age difference) if they went back to being married. I thought maybe they were hinting around during the scenes in the crypt, but it didn't go anywhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: itchyfeet on May 20, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
Tyrion picks a zombie to rule Westeros so that it is in fact Tyrion who has the true power. Well played Tyrion...
..... although after 8 seasons of bemoaning people calling you the imp, maybe Tyrion could have been a bit empathetic and not called a Bran broken. I am sure Bran would rather be called Bran the Brilliant.

What was the whole point of Jon being the true heir to the throne, and of us watching 8 seasons of us to being told what a great ruler he was? I suppose the conclusion is that Sansa and Tyrion were the best at playing the game of thrones and they got him shipped off to the Wall where he can’t be a threat to their power games.

Maybe they should have had a scene where Tyrion and Sansa plotted together to end up with Tyrion as the true power of Kings Landing and Sansa as the Queen of the North.it would have been better than Bran simply knowing all along he’d be King of nothing and allowing millions to die whilst he sat under the shade of an old tree day dreaming.

I thought Brienne made an oath to serve Sansa. Another oath breaker in the Kings guard.

Poor Greyworm. I guess he’ll have to find solace at the bottom of a bottle.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: StarBright on May 20, 2019, 08:59:01 PM
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

I thought it was GREAT read! Thanks for sharing that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 20, 2019, 10:01:01 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Well, during the Battle of Winterfell, I would have liked to be able to see anything!

Actually, I didn't hate the season. I really liked the second episode, when they're all at Winterfell waiting for the army of the Night King to arrive. The Battle of Winterfell disappointed me, because I have always found their battle scenes to be incredibly compelling (even though in most movies I don't care for them), and while the battle against the Night King had spectacular moments (that scene where the Dothraki ride out with flaming swords and the all the lights just...go out), I didn't think the directors did as good a job creating a narrative throughline. I didn't even mind that the show killed off Daenarys, but the show skipped way too many steps between strong-willed ruler and genocide.

The one minor hope that didn't go anywhere was that I always thought Tyrion and Sansa would make a good pair (other than the age difference) if they went back to being married. I thought maybe they were hinting around during the scenes in the crypt, but it didn't go anywhere.

DH was also rooting for Sansa/Tyrion the entire show, so he was also kind of bummed out.

Re the battle at Winterfell, I had no idea until the week afterward how many people literally could not see it well enough to even know what characters they were watching, and thus couldn't even follow the action. That is incredible, and certainly would have affected our enjoyment if it had been the case at our house. I'd have been pissed!   But we didn't have any trouble like that.  We just have a regular tv (more than 10 years old) and regular subscription HBO, and while a couple scenes (mainly some aerial stuff of ravens flying and the dragons flying through ash, smoke, and snow) were dark and murky and a little pixelated b/c of all the dark shades layered on each other, all the rest of the episode was perfectly viewable and we had no trouble identifying who was fighting and/or dying in any given scene. And we both assumed those aerial shots were supposed to be very difficult to see and disorienting (I think Drogon and Jon's dragon almost collided at one point b/c of lack of visibility...)   

I agree with criticism in this thread that the battle itself wasn't very logical or well-strategized. 

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 21, 2019, 06:48:40 AM
I had no idea until the week afterward how many people literally could not see it well enough to even know what characters they were watching, and thus couldn't even follow the action.

Makes you realize how few people understand what the basic brightness and contrast controls on their televisions do.  We were watching the episode and it was hard to see what was going on, so I paused it and fiddled with the controls for a second until it was perfectly watchable.  This isn't a new invention.  I remember having to do it in a particularly dark scene in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III.  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 21, 2019, 07:01:56 AM
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

This is the best observation I've read about the show.

Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Lulee on May 21, 2019, 08:41:23 AM
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

This is the best observation I've read about the show.

Thanks for sharing.

I'm glad you and StarBright enjoyed it too.  I appreciated having an explanation of how it was not just a style change between writers but an entirely different manner of storytelling that changed the show to something less than it was.   Benioff, Weiss & Co. didn't service their characters well lately but even if they had done better, it seemed like something beyond that & the rushed pacing that was I dunno ... dimming ... the compellingness (is that a word?) of the series.  I look at GRRM's writing with a whole new appreciation than I had until now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on May 21, 2019, 09:16:00 AM
New fan theory:

3-eyed raven has basically assumed Bran's consciousness and body (Bran repeatedly insisting he "isn't Bran"). Bran is basically a parasitic host that has tricked everyone into installing it as King. Oh, and it's immortal and can warg anything or anyone. So no worries about whether he can have an heir.

Bran basically provided enough information for the Targaeryans to turn on each other. And Sansa is the only one who figured it out, hence her secession.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on May 21, 2019, 09:30:48 AM
2) No resolution with the Iron Bank

I wondered about that one, don’t know the inheritance rules of Westeros, wondering if Tyrion now owns the Lannister debt and has to pay for Cersei’s army. Casterly Rock is supposedly worthless and Highgarden was given to Bronn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 21, 2019, 10:18:40 AM
2) No resolution with the Iron Bank

I wondered about that one, don’t know the inheritance rules of Westeros, wondering if Tyrion now owns the Lannister debt and has to pay for Cersei’s army. Casterly Rock is supposedly worthless and Highgarden was given to Bronn.
Should be fine as long as the Golden Company didn't have life insurance.  Peter/Paul, all that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Psychstache on May 21, 2019, 10:20:09 AM
2) No resolution with the Iron Bank

I wondered about that one, don’t know the inheritance rules of Westeros, wondering if Tyrion now owns the Lannister debt and has to pay for Cersei’s army. Casterly Rock is supposedly worthless and Highgarden was given to Bronn.

Sure hope they have a re-insurer, because this investment did not pan out. Some analyst is due for some King's Justice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 21, 2019, 02:03:42 PM
I had no idea until the week afterward how many people literally could not see it well enough to even know what characters they were watching, and thus couldn't even follow the action.

Makes you realize how few people understand what the basic brightness and contrast controls on their televisions do.  We were watching the episode and it was hard to see what was going on, so I paused it and fiddled with the controls for a second until it was perfectly watchable.  This isn't a new invention.  I remember having to do it in a particularly dark scene in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III.  :P

If everyone has to fiddle with the brightness and contrast to make it watchable, it is too dark. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 21, 2019, 02:12:34 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Among other stuff, I was disappointed in the battle scenes.  IMO, the Battle at Castle Black is the greatest battle scene ever filmed.  The Battles of Winterfell and King's Landing weren't.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on May 21, 2019, 02:34:43 PM
In no particular order:

1. Agree with the sentiments that the last two seasons were a race to the finish rather than telling a story anymore.  I don't mind the ending, but the lack of development was crap and so many characters were just shipped off just to get them out of the way. Dany becoming a psychopath and burning the city is within her character, but only with proper motivation.  She resorted to fire and dragons when frustrated. There was no reason in KL.  Her feeling vindicated, invincible, and a crusader to free[conquer] the world also fits into her character, but not an hour after taking the city.
2. Is Drogon taking Dany's body to Valyria or Dragon's Bay? Is he smart enough to dig a hole, give her a Viking funeral, or dump her body on Daario's doorstep?
3. Apparently Drogon is smart enough to sense when Dany's dying, have enough reasoning to not eat Jon right on the spot, and lash out at the Iron Throne for causing her downfall.  Makes you wonder if he was having Tyrion/Varys-type thoughts at all the trouble they went through.
4. Jon was sentenced to rejoin the Nights Watch. Why? What's left to watch?  The Wildlings are now the good guys, there are no White Walkers, and there's a giant hole in the wall.  It looks like Jon just packed up and became King Beyond the Wall anyways.
5. Tyrion put his mark on far too many things for him to be ignored in an official history of the War of the Five Kings.  He's officially a Kingslayer/Kinslayer. That's worth a chapter or two.
6. In the spirit of rushing through the story, the new Small Council completely ignored that it'll take a generation just to clean up the mess of what is left of Kings Landing. There are no bulldozers in Westeros to scoop up the rubble and bodies of several hundred thousand people. And apparently winter isn't as bad as they thought. There was a couple days of snow in the south and plants are growing north of the wall.
7. Despite the losses the North took during these wars, they have enough troops to be a threat to the Unsullied and Dothraki?  And for that matter all the armies shrunk and grew as the story required.
8.  Westeros is truly run by a government bureaucracy. Tyrion proved to be good at domestic concerns, okay at political scheming, and an absolute disaster at foreign affairs. So we're going to promote him and let him keep doing it.
9.  I assume with Sansa secure in the North, she released Brienne from her vow to decide what to do with her life.
10. Regarding Bran's "I can't be a Lord, but apparently I can be King" statements, remember that he's pretty much a time traveler.  We can't take anything he says at face value since he's playing the long game.
11. Yara defending Dany? They made a deal to help each other, but it's not like Yara was devoted.  I don't see Yara being okay with Dany burning half a million people.
12.  How is it Sam is the Maester of Kings Landing? That's a senior position in their hierarchy, and assuming the final scene is a few short months later he'd still barely be out of training.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on May 21, 2019, 02:35:00 PM
Don't forget "Blackwater"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 21, 2019, 02:36:54 PM
I had no idea until the week afterward how many people literally could not see it well enough to even know what characters they were watching, and thus couldn't even follow the action.

Makes you realize how few people understand what the basic brightness and contrast controls on their televisions do.  We were watching the episode and it was hard to see what was going on, so I paused it and fiddled with the controls for a second until it was perfectly watchable.  This isn't a new invention.  I remember having to do it in a particularly dark scene in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III.  :P

If everyone has to fiddle with the brightness and contrast to make it watchable, it is too dark.

It depends on whether or not you've ever set them to be ideal, and how much ambient lighting there is in the room you regularly watch in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 21, 2019, 02:51:56 PM
If everyone has to fiddle with the brightness and contrast to make it watchable, it is too dark.

It depends on whether or not you've ever set them to be ideal, and how much ambient lighting there is in the room you regularly watch in.

Understood.   However, in this case you had to stop the episode and fiddle with the settings to make it watchable.   Everyone else also seems to agree the episode was too dark.

I humbly submit that if everyone finds a particular episode too dark, it really is too dark.   Requiring viewers to adjust their TV's mid-episode is a clear production mistake.  People should be enjoying the show instead of thinking "The picture sucks.  How do I fix it?"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 21, 2019, 02:56:02 PM
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Among other stuff, I was disappointed in the battle scenes.  IMO, the Battle at Castle Black is the greatest battle scene ever filmed.  The Battles of Winterfell and King's Landing weren't.

These responses are interesting. Just goes to show how we all watch for different stuff.


I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

I always wanted to see more of the Faceless Man (Hagar, I think his name was), but he'd obviously served his purpose plot-wise.

I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

I agree with several of you that the show built the White Walkers up enough that they should have gotten more screen time (perhaps a half dozen episodes rather than a couple), but I freely admit that I personally would have been dreading that b/c I found the White Walkers the most uninteresting part of the show (and the books..I usually just skimmed all the stuff related to them).  Don't care who/what the Night King was....'some magical evil dude' is good enough for me.  The less White Walkers, the better, as far as my viewing satisfaction.

Apart from just building in more episodes for the past 2 seasons, I'm trying to think what I really wanted to see and didn't...

I agree that it would have been nice to see Arya's direwolf specifically, and a bit more of the two direwolves in general (obs not crucial to the plot). 

I wish they'd given Circe something to do this past couple years b/c I always liked getting into her twisted POV. 

I would have had Bran warg into one of the dragons at some point; not sure how to work that into the plot. 

I would have handled Jamie's end a little differently, as I noted earlier.  Just cut the scene with Euron, have him sneak in and ring the bells in the city (heroic moment that nevertheless fails to affect the outcome), then go to Circe. I would have had some setup where he and Circe were about to be captured, and he mercy-kills her (actually I envisioned something kind of similar to the Jon/Dany scene), and then either is killed or is captured and executed.

I wouldn't have minded a little more of Dorne, but I also remember the bitching among the fanbase when the books began focusing on Dornish characters, so I kind of doubt that would have been popular with the viewers. 

I didn't give a shit about Cleganebowl (which I gather was one of the more popular things among fans this season) and would have preferred the Hound give up his vendetta and end up as an enforcer for Sansa (ANY additional interaction with Sansa would have been great), or off adventuring with Arya.

I'm sure I can think of a few other things.  But considering the ginormous cast/number of plot threads, I'm surprised how fine I am with how it all went down.  It's funny, b/c I love to mentally re-write my favorite stories.  I remember when Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended, I also liked the last season a lot more than many fans, BUT I also had a very detailed 'alternate version' of that season in my head that would have taken only a few tweaks to do and would have been SOOO much more satisfying in terms of character arcs and some of the themes that season was playing with.  I actually wrote it down at the time, and even looking at it a few years later, I remember how good an outline I still thought it was. I have it somewhere...I wonder what I'd think of it now, ~ 10 years on?

It just goes to show,  there really is no pleasing the whole audience, or probably even the majority of the audience, with a long-running complex story.  I admit I am much more curious to read Martin's version now than I have been in years.  Supposedly the show runners were working from his outline of how all the characters ended up. Given how pissed most people seem about Bran being king, I'm wondering if Martin would consider changing his original idea, pretending it was the show-runners', and ending the series differently from how he's been planning it all these decades LOL.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on May 21, 2019, 03:03:09 PM
Don't forget "Blackwater"

Ok, I remember that one.  Tyrion's POV, right? That's probably why I remember.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 21, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

That was quite excellent.  From the article:

Quote
Another example of sociological TV drama with a similarly enthusiastic fan following is David Simon’s The Wire, which followed the trajectory of a variety of actors in Baltimore, ranging from African-Americans in the impoverished and neglected inner city trying to survive, to police officers to journalists to unionized dock workers to city officials and teachers.

"The Wire" is often cited as one of the best TV series ever--and I happen to love it--but I didn't realize the similarities with GoT.   In the Wire, it doesn't matter if you are good or bad, or a main character or not, things just happen to you.  Tiny, sometimes random events would have major consequences, just like in real life. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on May 21, 2019, 03:12:51 PM
Don't forget "Blackwater"

Ok, I remember that one.  Tyrion's POV, right? That's probably why I remember.

Davos, Stannis, Tyrion, Cersei and Sansa are all part of it. It changed my thinking about Stannis more than any other scene because he's basically kicking everyone's asses, but it's not enough to swing the battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 21, 2019, 03:37:27 PM

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ncornilsen on May 21, 2019, 03:54:52 PM

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

She should have borrowed enough for the elephants.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: FIRE Artist on May 21, 2019, 05:15:35 PM

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

She should have borrowed enough for the elephants.

Poor thing, went to her grave without ever getting to see an elephant!  If only they travelled better by sea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on May 21, 2019, 05:51:40 PM

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

Jamie's capture of Highgarden netted enough gold for the Iron Bank to consider the old debt paid and to extend a brand new line of credit to Cersei to hire the Golden Company.  It probably wasn't as much as the crown's previous total debts, but armies aren't cheap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on May 21, 2019, 06:05:23 PM

Given how pissed most people seem about Bran being king, I'm wondering if Martin would consider changing his original idea, pretending it was the show-runners', and ending the series differently from how he's been planning it all these decades LOL.

Generally, I'm not upset with Bran being king.  If he got a little more screen time it might make more sense to others.  The same goes for a lot of other character end states.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on May 21, 2019, 07:45:40 PM
If everyone has to fiddle with the brightness and contrast to make it watchable, it is too dark.

It depends on whether or not you've ever set them to be ideal, and how much ambient lighting there is in the room you regularly watch in.

Understood.   However, in this case you had to stop the episode and fiddle with the settings to make it watchable.   Everyone else also seems to agree the episode was too dark.

I humbly submit that if everyone finds a particular episode too dark, it really is too dark.   Requiring viewers to adjust their TV's mid-episode is a clear production mistake.  People should be enjoying the show instead of thinking "The picture sucks.  How do I fix it?"

I have never adjusted the brightness on my tv for any tv show or movie ever.  That episode was too dark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: runbikerun on May 22, 2019, 01:28:29 AM
I honestly would have loved more Iron Bank stuff, although I appreciate I'm very much in the minority on that. Braavos is centuries ahead of everywhere else in the world of GOT, and there's a heavy implication that nothing in Westeros or Essos really goes ahead without their involvement until dragons and white walkers start appearing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Nick_Miller on May 22, 2019, 04:40:19 AM
Welp, HBO is cancelled! That's that!

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion here over the past six weeks. It's a shame that "shared cultural experiences" like GoT are pretty much dead thanks to streaming. Sure, we still have sports and politics, but those are so tribalized that everything devolves into fighting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: runbikerun on May 22, 2019, 05:47:48 AM
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Noodle on May 22, 2019, 06:07:49 AM
After thinking about it for a couple days, I think that one big issue with the series was that it was never quite clear which story was the heart of the narrative and the destination of this whole journey. Was Game of Thrones a family drama about the Starks, and how they survived and found their way back to each other despite everything? Was it a hero's journey for a young woman who lost everything but used her suffering as fuel to understand and fight for the little people who had no one else? Was it an apocalyptic story about magic finding its way back into a world that had stopped believing in it, with the survival of humanity at stake? Was it  a twisty high-stakes political thriller about the contest for the Iron Throne and power in Westeros, with death to the losers? Was it a narrative about the disenfranchised (women, people of color, Wildlings, the physically disabled or different) finally winning power in a world previously controlled by smirky rich white guys? If you were in it for the Starks, the ending was probably satisfying, but if you thought you were there for one of those other stories, I can see how people might be pretty disappointed as the other narratives fell away. I'm sure part of it was that HBO was working with an unfinished narrative, and frankly probably one of the reasons that the series attracted so many viewers was that it offered such a big tent, but in the end they were never going to be able to end all those stories equally well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on May 22, 2019, 07:19:52 AM
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I've been trying to find a time to watch it.  The commercials were terrifying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on May 22, 2019, 07:22:01 AM
Considering how much the show focused on palace intrigue between Cersei and the Tyrells, you'd have to acknowledge that sub-plot, too. We should have known that Cersei was too flawed to prevail, but it's interesting that--in the process of beating her--Dany basically became her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Psychstache on May 22, 2019, 07:27:00 AM
After thinking about it for a couple days, I think that one big issue with the series was that it was never quite clear which story was the heart of the narrative and the destination of this whole journey. Was Game of Thrones a family drama about the Starks, and how they survived and found their way back to each other despite everything? Was it a hero's journey for a young woman who lost everything but used her suffering as fuel to understand and fight for the little people who had no one else? Was it an apocalyptic story about magic finding its way back into a world that had stopped believing in it, with the survival of humanity at stake? Was it  a twisty high-stakes political thriller about the contest for the Iron Throne and power in Westeros, with death to the losers? Was it a narrative about the disenfranchised (women, people of color, Wildlings, the physically disabled or different) finally winning power in a world previously controlled by smirky rich white guys? If you were in it for the Starks, the ending was probably satisfying, but if you thought you were there for one of those other stories, I can see how people might be pretty disappointed as the other narratives fell away. I'm sure part of it was that HBO was working with an unfinished narrative, and frankly probably one of the reasons that the series attracted so many viewers was that it offered such a big tent, but in the end they were never going to be able to end all those stories equally well.

See , to me that feels like a feature, not a bug. It goes back to the whole psychological vs. sociological storytelling from the article above.

I think the comparison to The Wire is apt, as it is that focus on the institutions, not individuals. Neither show is framed as being about this person, instead you are presented with the players that exist within competing institutions (in GoT, it is the Great Houses, in The Wire, it is the various city organizations) and how the people interact within those institutions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: runbikerun on May 22, 2019, 08:04:28 AM
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I've been trying to find a time to watch it.  The commercials were terrifying.

It's nightmarish. Truly suffocating television, in the best possible way.

To bring it back to Game Of Thrones, it's akin to the deathly silence following the screams at the gate of Hardhome, except sustained for hours at a time. The sense of dread and horror is overwhelming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ncornilsen on May 22, 2019, 08:28:09 AM
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I've been trying to find a time to watch it.  The commercials were terrifying.

It's nightmarish. Truly suffocating television, in the best possible way.

To bring it back to Game Of Thrones, it's akin to the deathly silence following the screams at the gate of Hardhome, except sustained for hours at a time. The sense of dread and horror is overwhelming.

Anyone notice that Maester Llywen was the old-line communist party guy in the first episode of Chernobyl?

It also occurred that  the actor who played Circe, played Sarah Connor in a 2008 TV series. in 2015, Emilia Clarke played Sarah Connor in a movie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on May 22, 2019, 08:46:22 AM
No joke, Lena Headey has had a fabulous career even pre-thrones. 300, The Purge, she's been in some A-game stuff.

Diana Rigg is of course the grand dame among the cast. I'm so grateful for the chance to have seen her. And Alexander Siddig, of course (true Star Trek Fans would have recognized him as Siddig Al Fadil in DS9).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 22, 2019, 09:57:38 AM
And Alexander Siddig, of course (true Star Trek Fans would have recognized him as Siddig Al Fadil in DS9).
He goes from genetically-modified superhuman to guy with gout in a wheelchair, quite the turn!  I wish his character would've gotten more traction on Peaky Blinders (suppose that is still possible but doubtful).  Aunt Pol was getting too dark for my taste and he was a good foil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on May 22, 2019, 10:22:02 AM
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I just cancelled my "HBO Now". It replied that my service would end June 20; to continue past that, reactivate the AutoRenew feature. So at least one unsubscriber can watch Chernobyl for up four weeks.

Not saying I will, just sharing info re options. Saving Mustache money!   :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: DaMa on May 22, 2019, 01:25:19 PM
Another recommend for Chernobyl.  It's amazingly good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on May 22, 2019, 01:25:57 PM
After thinking about it for a couple days, I think that one big issue with the series was that it was never quite clear which story was the heart of the narrative and the destination of this whole journey. Was Game of Thrones a family drama about the Starks, and how they survived and found their way back to each other despite everything? Was it a hero's journey for a young woman who lost everything but used her suffering as fuel to understand and fight for the little people who had no one else? Was it an apocalyptic story about magic finding its way back into a world that had stopped believing in it, with the survival of humanity at stake? Was it  a twisty high-stakes political thriller about the contest for the Iron Throne and power in Westeros, with death to the losers? Was it a narrative about the disenfranchised (women, people of color, Wildlings, the physically disabled or different) finally winning power in a world previously controlled by smirky rich white guys? If you were in it for the Starks, the ending was probably satisfying, but if you thought you were there for one of those other stories, I can see how people might be pretty disappointed as the other narratives fell away. I'm sure part of it was that HBO was working with an unfinished narrative, and frankly probably one of the reasons that the series attracted so many viewers was that it offered such a big tent, but in the end they were never going to be able to end all those stories equally well.

See , to me that feels like a feature, not a bug. It goes back to the whole psychological vs. sociological storytelling from the article above.

I think the comparison to The Wire is apt, as it is that focus on the institutions, not individuals. Neither show is framed as being about this person, instead you are presented with the players that exist within competing institutions (in GoT, it is the Great Houses, in The Wire, it is the various city organizations) and how the people interact within those institutions.

Not knowing who the protagonist was supposed to be was by design.  The story is a deconstruction of the typical medieval fantasy.  There are noble knights, fair maidens, and underdogs just like any other fantasy story, but that doesn't make them the good guys or the winners by default.  The books constantly remind you that being honest and honorable can be a death sentence when you're surrounded by people who aren't.  Everyone has their flaws.  Even heroes on a roll can end up dead completely by accident or by making one critical mistake.  While this is has worked well so far for the books, the TV version can't devote the same amount of time following every character and plotline without focusing on a few keys players at some point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: partgypsy on May 22, 2019, 01:36:48 PM

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

Jamie's capture of Highgarden netted enough gold for the Iron Bank to consider the old debt paid and to extend a brand new line of credit to Cersei to hire the Golden Company.  It probably wasn't as much as the crown's previous total debts, but armies aren't cheap.

This is the part I don't get. So they get highgarden, but the convoy of treasure going back to Kings landing to pay the bank, gets intercepted by Dany's army and massacred/melted. So they DIDN'T pay the bank back. Remember when they are waiting for the convoy to get there and it never did? Am I missing something? So how did she pay for these armies? More line of credit?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Samuel on May 22, 2019, 02:33:47 PM
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I just cancelled my "HBO Now". It replied that my service would end June 20; to continue past that, reactivate the AutoRenew feature. So at least one unsubscriber can watch Chernobyl for up four weeks.

Not saying I will, just sharing info re options. Saving Mustache money!   :)

And if you need some comedy to cut the seriousness I was very pleasantly surprised by Barry. I'm trying to get through it before my HBO cancellation takes effect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: DaMa on May 22, 2019, 04:23:22 PM

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

Jamie's capture of Highgarden netted enough gold for the Iron Bank to consider the old debt paid and to extend a brand new line of credit to Cersei to hire the Golden Company.  It probably wasn't as much as the crown's previous total debts, but armies aren't cheap.

This is the part I don't get. So they get highgarden, but the convoy of treasure going back to Kings landing to pay the bank, gets intercepted by Dany's army and massacred/melted. So they DIDN'T pay the bank back. Remember when they are waiting for the convoy to get there and it never did? Am I missing something? So how did she pay for these armies? More line of credit?

The gold made it safely to King's Landing.  One of the characters specifically says that.  It was other loot, especially grain, that was destroyed by Dany.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on May 22, 2019, 07:56:29 PM
This is a great (and funny) encapsulation of why this season was so damn frustrating.

https://reddit.com/r/videos/comments/brulx2/game_of_thrones_season_8_pitch_meeting/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: StarBright on May 22, 2019, 07:57:33 PM

 . . . .   It's funny, b/c I love to mentally re-write my favorite stories.  I remember when Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended, I also liked the last season a lot more than many fans, BUT I also had a very detailed 'alternate version' of that season in my head that would have taken only a few tweaks to do and would have been SOOO much more satisfying in terms of character arcs and some of the themes that season was playing with.   . . ..

^ I always hold Buffy and Angel up as perfect endings. I tended to wonder if I just loved Whedon's shows, but then absolutely hated the Dollhouse finale (though I loved the rest of that show so hard).

Even though GOT ended in the only way I said I would hate, I didn't dislike it as much as a I thought I would. I think I can see how it was George R R Martin's original ending and I do think it makes sense. I think I would have been quite satisfied had it taken a few more episodes to get to it.

I do feel badly for some of the actors who were clearly playing their character in a certain direction and with certain choices because they didn't know the endgame. You can tell it really bothered a couple of them. Though I do find it sort of beautiful how they felt such a responsibility to give these character's fully fleshed and believable journeys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on May 22, 2019, 09:28:51 PM
If the ending of Game of Thrones was a little more realistic...

https://www.facebook.com/dean.wallace/videos/10104641393062893/ (https://www.facebook.com/dean.wallace/videos/10104641393062893/)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Rimu05 on May 24, 2019, 09:49:22 AM
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

That was quite excellent.  From the article:

Quote
Another example of sociological TV drama with a similarly enthusiastic fan following is David Simon’s The Wire, which followed the trajectory of a variety of actors in Baltimore, ranging from African-Americans in the impoverished and neglected inner city trying to survive, to police officers to journalists to unionized dock workers to city officials and teachers.

"The Wire" is often cited as one of the best TV series ever--and I happen to love it--but I didn't realize the similarities with GoT.   In the Wire, it doesn't matter if you are good or bad, or a main character or not, things just happen to you.  Tiny, sometimes random events would have major consequences, just like in real life.

I find The Wire to be very much more grounded than GOT is even from the books. When I finished The Wire I was depressed as f**k. I am just going to confess as much as I am in awe of GRRM and the world he weaves, I think book readers can confess that there are definitely some plot lines you have to google because there is just so much to keep up with and I am not 100% sure we even need some of the plot lines in book 4.

I am also still in awe of how Jon Snow has survived. Also, he seems to have resurrected with no consequences in the show...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: ncornilsen on May 24, 2019, 10:15:48 AM
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

That was quite excellent.  From the article:

Quote
Another example of sociological TV drama with a similarly enthusiastic fan following is David Simon’s The Wire, which followed the trajectory of a variety of actors in Baltimore, ranging from African-Americans in the impoverished and neglected inner city trying to survive, to police officers to journalists to unionized dock workers to city officials and teachers.

"The Wire" is often cited as one of the best TV series ever--and I happen to love it--but I didn't realize the similarities with GoT.   In the Wire, it doesn't matter if you are good or bad, or a main character or not, things just happen to you.  Tiny, sometimes random events would have major consequences, just like in real life.

I find The Wire to be very much more grounded than GOT is even from the books. When I finished The Wire I was depressed as f**k. I am just going to confess as much as I am in awe of GRRM and the world he weaves, I think book readers can confess that there are definitely some plot lines you have to google because there is just so much to keep up with and I am not 100% sure we even need some of the plot lines in book 4.

I am also still in awe of how Jon Snow has survived. Also, he seems to have resurrected with no consequences in the show...

In the books, Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia martell, survived and had landed in Westeros. I wonder if he was supposed to get caught and take the black, and fall into the role Jon filled for the last 2 seasons, and Jon was supposed to stay dead.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on May 24, 2019, 12:49:47 PM
Yeah, I cannot imagine GRRM would have waited until Book V to introduce us to Aegon if he was anything other than FAegon. Perhaps some Blackfyre descendant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: boy_bye on May 28, 2019, 09:08:24 AM
I loved the first 3 episodes of this season. Once they started in on making Dany go from self-sacrificing and concerned with her subjects to batshit crazy in a matter of minutes, I got irritated, because it's rushed, short-changed storytelling that also happens to fall into some sexist tropes.

Dany's fall should have and could have been tragic in a really compelling and interesting and non-sexist-trope way, if they'd given us some time and visibility into her inner world.

I heard this criticism on Talk the Thrones and thought the host put it really well -- up until this season, Dany was a point of view character (like she is in the books). We usually saw Dany's world through her eyes. We saw her hashing things out, thinking things through, making decisions, and in this way, we could understand where she was coming from.

What this season did -- especially "The Bells" -- is take away our access to her interiority, just at the moment we most needed to see what was going on in there. That was yanked away, then her storyline became nothing more meaningful than "bitches be crazy."

Dany deserved better! I could accept this outcome for her, but not the rushed way we got there.

Also ... if Bran was so important and had such a great story, then why was he not even in a whole season?

Also ... how does Tyrion get to dictate the terms of the future of Westerosi governance WHILE HE IS IN CHAINS?

Also ... why wasn't Jon at that big meeting? Why didn't anyone bring up the fact that he is Aegon Targaryan, with a claim to the throne? It would have been so much more impactful for him to CHOOSE to abdicate his throne, rather than being forcibly exiled to please a character who is fucking off out of Westeros within moments anyway?

If D&D lost their boner for telling this story, I really wish they would have just passed it on to someone who still had some passion and energy for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 28, 2019, 11:11:53 AM
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: partgypsy on May 28, 2019, 11:35:45 AM
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc. I do agree the Dothracki would have gone hog wild regardless. But it's fine.

Have you all seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64IGxrQEN68
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 28, 2019, 11:50:37 AM
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc.

You're taking it as gospel that all of the people massacred in the past were all evil slave owners.  I believe a pretty strong case can be made that this probably wasn't the entire truth.

As mentioned, you always saw things from her perspective in the earlier episodes . . . and even at the very end, she talked a good talk about how her actions were necessary.  That's the beauty of changing the perspective from what she sees a thousand feet away from the action to what actually happens down in the shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Samuel on May 28, 2019, 12:11:34 PM
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc.

The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only take the throne, but actually rule once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 28, 2019, 12:43:07 PM
The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only taking the throne, but actually ruling once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.

Agreed.   There was some foreshadowing, but we didn't really see her decent into madness.   In S8 she lost another dragon, along with Ser Jorah and Missandei, Tyrion's advice had gone bad, and she was betrayed by Varys.   She had reason to crack, but it seemed to happen all at once. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 28, 2019, 12:46:13 PM
The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only taking the throne, but actually ruling once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.

Agreed.   There was some foreshadowing, but we didn't really see her decent into madness.   In S8 she lost another dragon, along with Ser Jorah and Missandei, Tyrion's advice had gone bad, and she was betrayed by Varys.   She had reason to crack, but it seemed to happen all at once. 

I think the biggest blow was when she realized that she had no legitimate claim to the throne.  Everything she had been working for up to that point was a lie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 28, 2019, 12:56:01 PM
^ Yes.  And she also lost her potential lover, Jon.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on May 28, 2019, 01:31:27 PM
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc.

The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only take the throne, but actually rule once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.

This makes me think about Danaerys in a different light.  Was she mad? Or was she just doing what she felt necessary in order to rule?  Right before she burned the city, was the look on her face mad with anger, or was it one of anguish at the realization of what she was about to do?

All of the above could fall under the "mad" category, but I think the intention between the two could be telling as to what happened to her character.  I'd need to rewatch the last episode to see which version I feel it was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 28, 2019, 02:12:51 PM
All of the above could fall under the "mad" category, but I think the intention between the two could be telling as to what happened to her character.  I'd need to rewatch the last episode to see which version I feel it was.
It just struck me as stupid.  Seething with rage in that moment made sense based on what had happened, but why would you be glaring in Cersei's direction in the Red Keep and then just decide to swoop down and wipe out the city.  Just go destroy the Red Keep and keep the city largely intact.  If you want to portray Dany as crazy and somehow thinking the smallfolk were reflective of Cersei - okay, but as has been pointed out, that connection wasn't really fleshed out.  Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.  Even when Missandei said "Dracarys", I took that as that Dany should flame Cersei & Co., since, ya know, they were the ones on the rampart beheading her to get a reaction and not the citizens.

Even if Dany hadn't gone crazy and had resigned herself to be the wife of Aegon, there would've been plenty of material to sort out that wasn't fairytale ending.  No way would an independent Winterfell, Bronn in Highgarden, Grey Worm et al. leaving like that, and all these other silly things have happened (nor should they have either way) so tidily.  It would've been still very difficult for Aegon VI to rule.  Hell, you're a Targaryen making the rules after re-establishing the throne (similar to Aegon I).  You can do whatever you want, Jon already said 1000x he didn't want the crown so it could've been a shallow title.  You could recognize Jon as legitimate and still have the ruling power.  Break the wheel!  Do your thing!  Don't go crazy!

Side note: Isn't it weird how even in Westeros the wife of a king is a queen but the husband of a queen is a prince?  No king (regent) or princess used.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 28, 2019, 02:24:47 PM
Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.

Daenarys has a history of executing people who stand with her enemies - innocence be damned.  You think every 'slaver' who died in her massacres was guilty?  Sure many of them were, but I bet some were just going with the flow and afraid of disobeying the biggest source of power that they had ever known.

Same deal in King's Landing.  The people still there were supporting Cersi.  So they had to die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Cromacster on May 28, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
All of the above could fall under the "mad" category, but I think the intention between the two could be telling as to what happened to her character.  I'd need to rewatch the last episode to see which version I feel it was.
It just struck me as stupid.  Seething with rage in that moment made sense based on what had happened, but why would you be glaring in Cersei's direction in the Red Keep and then just decide to swoop down and wipe out the city. Just go destroy the Red Keep and keep the city largely intact.  If you want to portray Dany as crazy and somehow thinking the smallfolk were reflective of Cersei - okay, but as has been pointed out, that connection wasn't really fleshed out.  Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.  Even when Missandei said "Dracarys", I took that as that Dany should flame Cersei & Co., since, ya know, they were the ones on the rampart beheading her to get a reaction and not the citizens.

Even if Dany hadn't gone crazy and had resigned herself to be the wife of Aegon, there would've been plenty of material to sort out that wasn't fairytale ending.  No way would an independent Winterfell, Bronn in Highgarden, Grey Worm et al. leaving like that, and all these other silly things have happened (nor should they have either way) so tidily.  It would've been still very difficult for Aegon VI to rule.  Hell, you're a Targaryen making the rules after re-establishing the throne (similar to Aegon I).  You can do whatever you want, Jon already said 1000x he didn't want the crown so it could've been a shallow title.  You could recognize Jon as legitimate and still have the ruling power.  Break the wheel!  Do your thing!  Don't go crazy!

Side note: Isn't it weird how even in Westeros the wife of a king is a queen but the husband of a queen is a prince?  No king (regent) or princess used.

I agree the rational choice....would have been to fly to the red keep and torch it, leaving the rest of the city untouched more or less.

If you wanted to send the message of "Bitch you fucked up, you fucked up bad".  What better way than to burn the entire city while she watched?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: simonsez on May 28, 2019, 03:05:00 PM
Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.

Daenarys has a history of executing people who stand with her enemies - innocence be damned.  You think every 'slaver' who died in her massacres was guilty?  Sure many of them were, but I bet some were just going with the flow and afraid of disobeying the biggest source of power that they had ever known.

Same deal in King's Landing.  The people still there were supporting Cersi.  So they had to die.
Okay, the smallfolk weren't standing with Cersei.  Executing Mossador and the Tarlys, while unnecessary, at least were within her character.  Those people were directly in opposition to her or at least a policy.  Show me one non-court-related citizen of King's Landing that did something to Dany.

Do you think the slavers who were essentially oligarchs in Slaver's Bay are equivalent in Dany's mind to the smallfolk of King's Landing?  My opinion is that is stupid if that's what was going on in Dany's mind.  The slavers were guilty of being slavers.  How were they innocent?  It doesn't matter how good of a person they were or even if their slaves wanted to remain in bondage. 

It'd be one thing if she executed every lord and lady in the Crownlands and even some of the more powerful gentry - this would be in keeping with her history somewhat if she wanted to stretch the meaning of feudalism, but that's not what happened.  She took a hard left turn Ep 5.  Agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Telecaster on May 28, 2019, 03:30:19 PM
Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.

Daenarys has a history of executing people who stand with her enemies - innocence be damned.  You think every 'slaver' who died in her massacres was guilty?  Sure many of them were, but I bet some were just going with the flow and afraid of disobeying the biggest source of power that they had ever known.

Same deal in King's Landing.  The people still there were supporting Cersi.  So they had to die.

But they weren't supporting Cersi.   They rang the bells, opened the gates, and dropped their weapons.   
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: partgypsy on May 28, 2019, 04:57:54 PM
Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.

Daenarys has a history of executing people who stand with her enemies - innocence be damned.  You think every 'slaver' who died in her massacres was guilty?  Sure many of them were, but I bet some were just going with the flow and afraid of disobeying the biggest source of power that they had ever known.

Same deal in King's Landing.  The people still there were supporting Cersi.  So they had to die.

But they weren't supporting Cersi.   They rang the bells, opened the gates, and dropped their weapons.

And mostly women and children, who used to be her soft spot. But it's a tv show, it doesn't have to make sense. And maybe everyone wanted to see a big dragon scene so at least we got that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 28, 2019, 06:35:06 PM
Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.

Daenarys has a history of executing people who stand with her enemies - innocence be damned.  You think every 'slaver' who died in her massacres was guilty?  Sure many of them were, but I bet some were just going with the flow and afraid of disobeying the biggest source of power that they had ever known.

Same deal in King's Landing.  The people still there were supporting Cersi.  So they had to die.

But they weren't supporting Cersi.   They rang the bells, opened the gates, and dropped their weapons.

I agree with you.  In our eyes, they were giving up and should have been pardoned.  But in Dany's eyes the time for them to make that choice was before the battle started.  That's reasonably consistent with her past actions.  After she decided to massacre the slavers and everyone who stood with them, she didn't take any surrenders.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Gondolin on May 29, 2019, 07:54:03 AM
Quote
You're taking it as gospel that all of the people massacred in the past were all evil slave owners.  I believe a pretty strong case can be made that this probably wasn't the entire truth.

If you want this take I would assert that the show needs to indicate to the audience that previous narration was unreliable. There is nothing in the text or even the subtext to indicate this so ex-post-facto ‘some of the slavers were probably good guys’ headcanon gets zero points from me.


The real crazy thing is that all these medieval lords suddenly start caring about casualties. Massacres in besieged cities was the norm, not the exception.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on May 29, 2019, 08:05:54 AM
She pointed to a whole group of people and said that they were evil slavers, OKing their massacre.

I agree with you, the show didn't indicate to the audience that any of the hundreds of people being massacred were good guys.  My whole argument is that you were being given the story from the dragon ladies point of view.  It makes sense that she's not going to see her actions as wrong.  Even at the end where she was clearly massacring innocents she didn't see her actions as wrong though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on October 28, 2019, 11:34:07 AM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: StarBright on October 28, 2019, 11:49:42 AM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: techwiz on October 28, 2019, 11:53:55 AM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)

Saw this topic pop up and was thinking is there going to be another season....maybe a spin off?  Nope guess not. :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on October 28, 2019, 11:57:27 AM
Carl Drago will forever live on in my heart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on October 28, 2019, 11:59:50 AM
I still love Khal Drogo almost as much as Ivan Drago
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: GuitarStv on October 28, 2019, 12:05:46 PM
I still love Khal Drogo almost as much as Ivan Drago

It was definitely Carl, not Khal.


:P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: EvenSteven on October 28, 2019, 12:05:52 PM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)

Saw this topic pop up and was thinking is there going to be another season....maybe a spin off?  Nope guess not. :(

There is a prequel that, if not already under production, has at least been cast. It takes place thousands of years before GoT. George RR Martin is involved, but has a different show runner than GoT.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on October 28, 2019, 12:49:23 PM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)

Saw this topic pop up and was thinking is there going to be another season....maybe a spin off?  Nope guess not. :(

There is a prequel that, if not already under production, has at least been cast. It takes place thousands of years before GoT. George RR Martin is involved, but has a different show runner than GoT.

I am going to boycott anything the showrunners (David Benioff and D.B. Weiss) are involved with.  I understand they're not involved with the spin offs and prequels, but I've also lost interest in all things game of thrones even if they aren't involved. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on October 28, 2019, 12:52:07 PM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)

Saw this topic pop up and was thinking is there going to be another season....maybe a spin off?  Nope guess not. :(

There is a prequel that, if not already under production, has at least been cast. It takes place thousands of years before GoT. George RR Martin is involved, but has a different show runner than GoT.

I am going to boycott anything the showrunners (David Benioff and D.B. Weiss) are involved with.  I understand they're not involved with the spin offs and prequels, but I've also lost interest in all things game of thrones even if they aren't involved.

I pretty much agree. I'm not a purist by any means, and before the final season I couldn't have imagined saying this, but they basically ruined GoT for me. I don't have any interest in revisiting it ever again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: BicycleB on October 28, 2019, 01:40:39 PM
I once found the best ice cream flavor in the history of the world. It was a test by the Local Great Ice Cream Company. It had little chocolate balls filled with shockingly delicious cherry liqueur-type stuff, plus chunks of real cherry, plus little chocolate chunks, plus chocolate swirls in a surprisingly good cherry ice cream. Sadly, my opinion was not shared, the flavor disappeared after a few months.

When they offered other flavors, they were not as good. Usually I can resist them. Often I'm not even tempted.

I currently do not expect to try any new GOT-universe drivel. But sometimes, at the last moment, ice cream calleth. So... is winter coming? I do not know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on October 28, 2019, 08:44:04 PM
The show got steadily worse as D&D ran out of book material to copy. Then the last season took a complete nose dive.  It's been five years since the last book.  Between the wait for the books and the disappointment in the show I'm on the edge of just not caring about the franchise at all anymore.  "Numb" sounds like too strong of a word, but I wonder who else in the fandom has become " I just don't care anymore?"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Jouer on October 29, 2019, 08:30:56 AM
So the showrunners sped through season 8 so they could go write Star Wars movies. And now they've moved on from Star Wars (before even making a single movie) to work with Netflix. They are basically level hopping, chasing money without caring about the work. No need to ever care about them or their work again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Kris on October 29, 2019, 08:36:14 AM
The show got steadily worse as D&D ran out of book material to copy. Then the last season took a complete nose dive.  It's been five years since the last book.  Between the wait for the books and the disappointment in the show I'm on the edge of just not caring about the franchise at all anymore.  "Numb" sounds like too strong of a word, but I wonder who else in the fandom has become " I just don't care anymore?"

Me, for one. I'm 100% sure I won't bother to buy the next book when/if it ever comes out. Bleah.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on October 30, 2019, 08:24:06 AM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)

Saw this topic pop up and was thinking is there going to be another season....maybe a spin off?  Nope guess not. :(

There is a prequel that, if not already under production, has at least been cast. It takes place thousands of years before GoT. George RR Martin is involved, but has a different show runner than GoT.

Anything to procrastinate on that next book!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: wenchsenior on October 30, 2019, 08:33:30 AM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)

Saw this topic pop up and was thinking is there going to be another season....maybe a spin off?  Nope guess not. :(

There is a prequel that, if not already under production, has at least been cast. It takes place thousands of years before GoT. George RR Martin is involved, but has a different show runner than GoT.

FYI this show was indeed cast (Naomi Watts was one of the leads) and a pilot was shot, but apparently HBO didn't like it and has scrapped the whole thing as of a few days ago.  I'm a little surprised by this...the original GoT series and Westworld (HBO's two biggest shows) had notoriously fraught early stages of production, I believe including complete reworks of both pilots and some last minute recasts, so it's not like them to just pull the plug b/c of some bumps in the road. 

Either GoT stock has plummeted, or HBO feels they just have way too much good stuff on their plate right now (ETA: I hope this means His Dark Materials is about to kick ass!) to throw good money after bad.  The network is apparently still pursuing other GoT show possibilities, but I think nothing is on the immediate horizon right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on October 30, 2019, 08:45:22 AM
It's been over 5 months and I still feel bitter about the garbage they passed off as the last season.  I thought that as time went on my anger and disappointment would fade, but it's as intense as ever.

I still get that way about Lost, and it has been years. You learn to live with it :)

Saw this topic pop up and was thinking is there going to be another season....maybe a spin off?  Nope guess not. :(

There is a prequel that, if not already under production, has at least been cast. It takes place thousands of years before GoT. George RR Martin is involved, but has a different show runner than GoT.

FYI this show was indeed cast (Naomi Watts was one of the leads) and a pilot was shot, but apparently HBO didn't like it and has scrapped the whole thing as of a few days ago.  I'm a little surprised by this...the original GoT series and Westworld (HBO's two biggest shows) had notoriously fraught early stages of production, I believe including complete reworks of both pilots and some last minute recasts, so it's not like them to just pull the plug b/c of some bumps in the road. 

Either GoT stock has plummeted, or HBO feels they just have way too much good stuff on their plate right now (ETA: I hope this means His Dark Materials is about to kick ass!) to throw good money after bad.  The network is apparently still pursuing other GoT show possibilities, but I think nothing is on the immediate horizon right now.

My understanding is that there were several prequels in the works.  This one specifically was about the origin of the white walkers.  No one gives a fuck about the white walkers though.  How could their story be any good given how anticlimactic they ended up being in the show? I mean, who really gives a fuck about their back story? They ended up being a non-story and just got stabbed away by one little girl. 

There are several other prequel shows that are still on the table though, including one about the Targaryens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Travis on October 30, 2019, 05:14:13 PM
The Long Night prequel was scrapped, but it looks like the Targaryen prequel is still a go.

And in other news, D&D are no longer associated with Star Wars. Their reasoning is that with their Netflix projects they won't have time.  From what I heard, they rushed the last two seasons of GoT because they wanted to clear their schedules for SW. So much for that...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: frugalnacho on October 31, 2019, 01:52:42 PM
skuttlebutt around the internet was that the decision to fire them was made back in May after the finale aired, but kept on the downlow while they shopped around for new deals.  It just wasn't officially announced until their most recent panel.  It seems pretty similar to when someone fucks something up major, then are given the opportunity to resign rather than be fired and humiliated.  They resigned from star wars, but I don't know that they really had an option.  It still boggles my mind that netflix made a $200M deal with them.  You know what would be a much better use of $200M than giving it to those hacks?

(http://sportsmockery.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/the-dark-knight-joker-heath-ledger-burning-money.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: talltexan on November 07, 2019, 09:17:49 AM
The show got steadily worse as D&D ran out of book material to copy. Then the last season took a complete nose dive.  It's been five years since the last book.  Between the wait for the books and the disappointment in the show I'm on the edge of just not caring about the franchise at all anymore.  "Numb" sounds like too strong of a word, but I wonder who else in the fandom has become " I just don't care anymore?"

Me, for one. I'm 100% sure I won't bother to buy the next book when/if it ever comes out. Bleah.

When I do see a preview chapter of Winds of Winter (I think there are 3 or 4 that have been out at various times) it always blows me away. If Martin releases it, it will be fantastic. I almost worry he'll have something that is 90% fantastic and refuse to release it because...perfectionism.

People complaining about the last season of the show probably aren't helping this. The first five seasons were fantastic. Other people criticize the genocide, but I was bothered more by removing Varys, which meant there couldn't be a final shot of him and Peter Dinklage walking away from the camera, bantering in that way that they do which is so fantastic. Something akin to the ending of "Casablanca".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
Post by: Philociraptor on November 07, 2019, 10:00:48 AM
The show got steadily worse as D&D ran out of book material to copy. Then the last season took a complete nose dive.  It's been five years since the last book.  Between the wait for the books and the disappointment in the show I'm on the edge of just not caring about the franchise at all anymore.  "Numb" sounds like too strong of a word, but I wonder who else in the fandom has become " I just don't care anymore?"

Me, for one. I'm 100% sure I won't bother to buy the next book when/if it ever comes out. Bleah.

When I do see a preview chapter of Winds of Winter (I think there are 3 or 4 that have been out at various times) it always blows me away. If Martin releases it, it will be fantastic. I almost worry he'll have something that is 90% fantastic and refuse to release it because...perfectionism.

People complaining about the last season of the show probably aren't helping this. The first five seasons were fantastic. Other people criticize the genocide, but I was bothered more by removing Varys, which meant there couldn't be a final shot of him and Peter Dinklage walking away from the camera, bantering in that way that they do which is so fantastic. Something akin to the ending of "Casablanca".

11 Winds chapters have been released over the years, here is that info from the Wiki (https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Winds_of_Winter).

Theon I (included in A World of Ice and Fire under "Excerpts")
Victarion I
Tyrion I (read at Miscon 2012, but no video or transcription was made)
Arianne I (included in A World of Ice and Fire under "Excerpts")
Barristan I (included in A World of Ice and Fire under "Excerpts")
Barristan II (read at Boskone 2013, but no video or transcription was made)
Tyrion II (included in A World of Ice and Fire under "Excerpts" as "Tyrion I")
Mercy (included in A World of Ice and Fire under "Excerpts")
Alayne I
Arianne II
The Forsaken

I don't care what others say, if he finishes Winds (and Dream) I will be beyond excited to read it (them). The end state of the show is supposed to be pretty close to how GRRM intends to end the books, but the way he will get there will be infinitely better than the showrunners' version.