Poll

Do we have free will?  And why?

Yes.
57 (77%)
No.
17 (23%)

Total Members Voted: 69

Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 68949 times)

Grid

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Free Will
« on: November 10, 2014, 06:25:00 PM »
Just wondering what the thoughts are here.  I really don't think there's much of an argument.  If you consider at any point in time, all bits of the universe are acting one way, it follows that they will determine exactly what the next point in time will be like, and so on.  But I still act like I have free will!  I'd probably go insane otherwise.

ETA:  Google-searched definition of free will:

free will
noun
1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
synonyms:    self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 07:02:56 PM by Grid »

Datastache

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2014, 07:14:15 PM »
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. As far as I'm concerned, the idea of free will doesn't even really make sense. I mean, we obviously make choices as human beings, but how do we make those choices? Our neurons run computations on sensory input, based on the current physical configuration of said neurons. In any given situation, how could any given human act any other way than...the way it ends up acting?

Consciousness is the really weird thing. It really seems like it shouldn't exist, yet it's the one thing I'm absolutely positive DOES exist.

Grid

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 07:28:19 PM »
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. As far as I'm concerned, the idea of free will doesn't even really make sense. I mean, we obviously make choices as human beings, but how do we make those choices? Our neurons run computations on sensory input, based on the current physical configuration of said neurons. In any given situation, how could any given human act any other way than...the way it ends up acting?

Consciousness is the really weird thing. It really seems like it shouldn't exist, yet it's the one thing I'm absolutely positive DOES exist.

No biggie.  We're just the universe experiencing itself.  I agree that it's fascinating.  Maybe we'll make other things that become self-aware.  I do think Artificial Intelligence will become a thing here in about 20 years, and I'm studying to be a part of that movement.

Knapptyme

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2014, 08:55:58 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly that if we are given or could know the position/velocity and mass of everything (these are, in theory, knowable), we could then predict its future path, thus creating a certain determinism of sorts. Regardless if our will is free, can anything ever happen randomly? That, in and of itself, would suggest there is a freedom separate from predetermined positions and momentum.

Consciousness, too, is a great question. Because even as I write this in reply to what I perceive to be someone else's consciousness, there is no true test to prove its not my own or a simply a running program. And my perspective of said conversation is from a particular vantage point and nowhere else.

All that to say, however, without the delusion of free will, life might seem less interesting. I also agree that it does not change how I live life.

dragoncar

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2014, 10:35:58 PM »
Do people really think we could predict the future with accurate knowledge of the current state?  We certainly don't have models for this, and those models may never exist.  Consider quantum uncertainty:

http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/physics/

Anyways, I fall into the camp that it doesn't matter if we have free will or not.  We must act as if we do. 

MikeBear

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2014, 11:07:47 PM »
42! Since we know that, how can there truly be "free will".

I'm with dragoncar though, we must act as if there is.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 11:09:54 PM by MikeBear »

MrMonkeyMustache

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2014, 11:19:31 PM »


I agree wholeheartedly that if we are given or could know the position/velocity and mass of everything (these are, in theory, knowable), we could then predict its future path, thus creating a certain determinism of sorts.
This isn't even true. Ignoring all othet physical laws, the position, velocity and mass is nowhere near enough. If you want to know the future path you need the acceleration, velocity of the acceleration etc. And the world isn't stationary, so we also need to know all the interactions between all particles (also electro-magnetical etc.). To our best knowledge the molecular interactions are not deterministic, but probabilistic, which means even if we know everything at time t0, we can't predict tp+1s (although we can give an distribution of possible events).

Andy_in_Aus

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2014, 11:22:25 PM »
Ah, The age old existential question. There have been a number of studies that show, when a subject is hooked up to an MRI, that the brain gives the answer to certain stimulus a fraction of a second before the subject is aware that they've even made up their mind, so did they decide the answer if they weren't aware they did?

In my opinion, free will is a far more complex issue than yes I have it, or no I don't.

To really get into the guts of it, Google Scholar is your friend!

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&q=free+will&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=


Johnez

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 02:56:22 AM »
I don't believe in free will but believe in determinism. We do not choose our family, the point in time we exist, our location, our environment, our influenced, our genes, our deformities, our gifts-and any decision we make is based on circumstances and upbring we did not create. Sam Harris boils it down well, "we do not cause our causes." So we can prefer chocolate over vanilla-with that tongue you were BORN with, perhaps based on offerings selected ahead of you, and affected by a million other random things.


GuitarStv

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2014, 05:43:32 AM »
No, there's no free will.  Or at least the neuroscience seems to point to there being no free will.  To repost from the religion thread:

There's a rather substantial amount of brain chemistry evidence that suggests the concept of free will is entirely fictitious (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/2010/04/06/scientists-say-free-will-probably-doesnt-exist-but-urge-dont-stop-believing/).  Your brain responds to electrochemical stimulus, and it's pretty easy to change your decision making by altering this stimulus (for example: http://www.rifters.com/real/articles/brainontrial.htm).  Most decisions that the human brain makes are enacted a full ten seconds before you're consciously aware of what you'll do (http://rifters.com/real/articles/NatureNeuroScience_Soon_et_al.pdf).  Your body can carry on living, talking, and doing things with your consciousness turned off (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329762.700-consciousness-onoff-switch-discovered-deep-in-brain.html?full=true#.VF4rlY_iCTw).

I don't put significant faith in the concept of conscious decision making . . . the science doesn't appear to support it.  This does lead to some sticky philosophical questions related to decision making in general though. . .



A tumour can completely change the way you act (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943-brain-tumour-causes-uncontrollable-paedophilia.html).  It can turn a normal person into a pedophile by pressing on the right (wrong?) part of the brain.

As the study linked up above (in quotes) indicates, we enact most decisions subconsciously and don't engage the actual cognitive decision making part of the brain until much later . . . then it appears that the brain undergoes some rationalization to give a reason for the action, after the fact.

Our legal system, personal interactions, and outlook on life is typically all heavily based around an unchallengeable concept of free will though.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:47:08 AM by GuitarStv »

frugalnacho

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 08:06:17 AM »
Geddy Lee disagrees with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74

Quote
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

xocotl

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 09:10:16 AM »
I take sort of a modified Pascal's wager approach to it. I choose to assume that the universe is not deterministic because if I'm right and there is free will, assuming determinism would be detrimental to me, whereas if I'm wrong and the universe is deterministic, I have no control over my belief or lack thereof anyway, and so it doesn't matter.

skunkfunk

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 09:12:11 AM »
Did nobody here ever have quantum physics? There are things that are inherently unknowable by their very nature. The universe doesn't even know exactly until it is required. The uncertainty principle, and all.

Yes, we can calculate the wave function (probability function) but you can't calculate when, for instance, a radioactive particle will decay. You can only say what the odds are of it happening within a given time frame, and it's completely random what you get from any given encounter. I've given an incredibly short spiel here, it's complicated, but it is true. Put all of this together on a macroscopic scale and you have a seemingly predictable system, but then again, our are neurons really a large enough system to extrapolate that it is deterministic? Can you say for sure?

On a macroscopic scale, incredibly small inaccuracies that have no discernible effect at first can  make huge differences in conditions given enough time. Go far enough in the future for any non-ideal system (which is to say, any real system) and a random guess is as good as any calculation no matter how much you know. It's impossible to get an exact measurement, even if you're God of the universe. It's an inherent property, and the math is pretty unarguable.

After a little bit of looking around, I've found a wikipedia article that touches on this.

Edit: Found some relevant stuff on wikipedia.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 09:13:43 AM by skunkfunk »

GuitarStv

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2014, 09:13:52 AM »
Geddy Lee disagrees with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74

Quote
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

To hell with Rush.

Knapptyme

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2014, 09:30:25 AM »


I agree wholeheartedly that if we are given or could know the position/velocity and mass of everything (these are, in theory, knowable), we could then predict its future path, thus creating a certain determinism of sorts.
This isn't even true. Ignoring all othet physical laws, the position, velocity and mass is nowhere near enough. If you want to know the future path you need the acceleration, velocity of the acceleration etc. And the world isn't stationary, so we also need to know all the interactions between all particles (also electro-magnetical etc.). To our best knowledge the molecular interactions are not deterministic, but probabilistic, which means even if we know everything at time t0, we can't predict tp+1s (although we can give an distribution of possible events).

Let me grant that I was making grand generalities in reference to the topic of free will and not a discussion of quantum mechanics. If, in theory, granting probabilistic determination of uncertainty, you could know all the information of the universe at a given instantaneous moment, it does not seem absurd to be able to predict the next instantaneous result. What is absurd is to actually know all of that information which leaves us guessing or, at the very least, uncertain.

My point was rather to suggest the very idea of randomness as a very real possibility without going to a greater depth of physics. While I concede limited knowledge myself, I think you make a great point that, yes, at the molecular level we have probabilistic distribution of expected events. Does that allow any of the events to be random or do we qualify any event at that level as acceptable within a reasonable range of possibilities?

I'm suggesting that maybe free will of one's actions in the grand scheme of the universe, within a reasonable range of possibilities, seems to be the random element we observe in nature.

BlueMR2

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2014, 10:11:30 AM »
No free will.  I'm a believer in block spacetime.  Time is just an illusion, so there can't be free will.  However, I live as if I have free will.  It's all very interesting.  :-)

skunkfunk

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2014, 10:16:26 AM »
No free will.  I'm a believer in block spacetime.  Time is just an illusion, so there can't be free will.  However, I live as if I have free will.  It's all very interesting.  :-)

Don't you watch Doctor Who?? Time can be re-written!

But hey even if you've already chosen something later you still are/get/got to pick right?

LibrarIan

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2014, 10:21:28 AM »
42! Since we know that, how can there truly be "free will".

I'm with dragoncar though, we must act as if there is.

Interesting approach. You will harness the power of your will to freely choose to believe that there is indeed free will so that you avoid going crazy, which is the result of choosing to believe a different way. Hm....

skunkfunk

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2014, 10:22:50 AM »
42! Since we know that, how can there truly be "free will".

I'm with dragoncar though, we must act as if there is.

Interesting approach. You will harness the power of your will to freely choose to believe that there is indeed free will so that you avoid going crazy, which is the result of choosing to believe a different way. Hm....

Careful! Don't pursue this line of thought lest you ask The Question. We should lock the thread lest we endanger the universe.

Edit: Is there some kind of mod battle going on here?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 01:38:38 PM by skunkfunk »

Datastache

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2014, 09:06:48 PM »
I originally was going to get into quantum stuff in my response, but I ended up deleting it. I'm inclined to agree with skunkfunk. Although I asked:

Quote
In any given situation, how could any given human act any other way than...the way it ends up acting?

...I wouldn't be too surprised if the random, probabilistic, non-deterministic world of quantum strangeness does play a role in the choices we make, at least from time to time. So I would be pretty hesitant to assert that human behavior is strictly deterministic. I just don't think random or probabilistic events get us any closer to free will.

Daisy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2014, 09:14:21 PM »
If you don't believe in free will, how could you possibly read the MMM blog and agree with anything he says? We face choices every day. We have threads on this forum making fun of people that make wrong choices all of the time. FIRE is a choice...isn't it? If not, then I can blame any stupid spending I do on the deterministic path that was laid out for me from birth.

"Yeah, I said screw saving for retirement because my genes told me so."

I suppose it comes down to whether you believe you have a soul or if you believe that you are just a clump of cells reacting to chemical reactions. Ah...the age old question...I know which side of that argument I fall on. It's probably not likely you can convince anyone on an internet forum one way or the other. Best discussed over drinks...
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:51:36 PM by Daisy »

dragoncar

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2014, 09:49:36 PM »
If you don't believe in free will, how could you possible read the MMM blog and agree with anything he says? We face choices every day. We have threads on this forum making fun of people that make wrong choices all of the time. FIRE is a choice...isn't it? If not, then I can blame any stupid spending I do on the deterministic path that was laid out for me from birth.

"Yeah, I said screw saving for retirement because my genes told me so."

I suppose it comes down to whether you believe you have a soul or if you believe that you are just a clump of cells reacting to chemical reactions. Ah...the age old question...I know which side of that argument I fall on. It's probably not likely you can convince anyone on an internet forum one way or the other. Best discussed over drinks...

Well I'm predetermined to read the MMM blog and agree with anything he says, so I don't have much choice in the matter no do I?

GuitarStv

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2014, 06:22:05 AM »
^ yep.

MandalayVA

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2014, 07:43:35 AM »
Geddy Lee disagrees with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74

Quote
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

To hell with Rush.

Limbaugh, yes.  The band, NO.

Grid

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 05:22:41 PM »
42! Since we know that, how can there truly be "free will".

I'm with dragoncar though, we must act as if there is.

Interesting approach. You will harness the power of your will to freely choose to believe that there is indeed free will so that you avoid going crazy, which is the result of choosing to believe a different way. Hm....

Careful! Don't pursue this line of thought lest you ask The Question. We should lock the thread lest we endanger the universe.

Edit: Is there some kind of mod battle going on here?

I locked the post to seal the deal on your joke!  It's since been unlocked.

arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2014, 08:30:43 AM »
I don't see quantum uncertainty as any sort of problem for determinism.

Just because we can't know what will happen doesn't mean it doesn't HAVE to happen that particular way.

In other words, a particle could do A or B (we think).  We can't know, and at the last second it does A.  Who's to say it wasn't determined to do A, and that B was even a possibility at all?

If you don't believe in free will, how could you possible read the MMM blog and agree with anything he says? We face choices every day. We have threads on this forum making fun of people that make wrong choices all of the time. FIRE is a choice...isn't it? If not, then I can blame any stupid spending I do on the deterministic path that was laid out for me from birth.

"Yeah, I said screw saving for retirement because my genes told me so."

I suppose it comes down to whether you believe you have a soul or if you believe that you are just a clump of cells reacting to chemical reactions. Ah...the age old question...I know which side of that argument I fall on. It's probably not likely you can convince anyone on an internet forum one way or the other. Best discussed over drinks...

Well I'm predetermined to read the MMM blog and agree with anything he says, so I don't have much choice in the matter no do I?

Right.  The thing about determinism is that it doesn't matter if you believe in it, or not.  You'll do what you would anyways.
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arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2014, 08:31:51 AM »
42! Since we know that, how can there truly be "free will".

I'm with dragoncar though, we must act as if there is.

Interesting approach. You will harness the power of your will to freely choose to believe that there is indeed free will so that you avoid going crazy, which is the result of choosing to believe a different way. Hm....

Careful! Don't pursue this line of thought lest you ask The Question. We should lock the thread lest we endanger the universe.

Edit: Is there some kind of mod battle going on here?

I locked the post to seal the deal on your joke!  It's since been unlocked.

That was me.  I didn't see the need to lock a post and kill a discussion for a moderately funny, at best, joke (you locking it was the funnier part, but then it left this closed).  :)
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skunkfunk

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2014, 04:43:45 PM »


In other words, a particle could do A or B (we think).  We can't know, and at the last second it does A. 

That's not at all how it works. The particle essentially did both until the wave function collapses. We can tell because the damn thing interferes with itself.

MoneyCat

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2014, 04:54:04 PM »
Yes, free will exists.  If it didn't exist, then absolutely nothing would have any meaning.

PKFFW

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2014, 06:00:21 PM »
Considering the disdain and ridicule that abounds on these forums for those who get into debt and are financially unwise I'm surprised at the level of belief in determinism being shown in the posts if not the poll results.

arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2014, 06:23:27 PM »


In other words, a particle could do A or B (we think).  We can't know, and at the last second it does A. 

That's not at all how it works. The particle essentially did both until the wave function collapses. We can tell because the damn thing interferes with itself.

You're missing the point. Quantum theory doesn't pose a threat to determinism because when it collapses, how do you know it could have collapsed to the other?  A determinist would say it couldn't have.
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arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2014, 06:27:52 PM »
Yes, free will exists.  If it didn't exist, then absolutely nothing would have any meaning.

I don't know what you mean by meaning, but that doesn't seem true to me. If you think there is any "meaning," determinism doesn't change that. There's still the same "meaning," it's just determined who will or won't achieve it.  (If you achieve meaning, I guess, I'm still not sure what it means, but I don't see things being determined ruining anything.  And, even if it did, so what?  If your definition of  meaning was based on X, and X wasn't the case, that doesn't suddenly make X the case just because you rely on it for "meaning.")
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arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2014, 06:29:01 PM »
Considering the disdain and ridicule that abounds on these forums for those who get into debt and are financially unwise I'm surprised at the level of belief in determinism being shown in the posts if not the poll results.

Ah, but see, we can't help but judge because of our determinants.  We're forced into judging, you might say.
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zinnie

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2014, 06:37:42 PM »
As a psychology textbook author I used to work with said, it feels like we have free will, so it isn't wrong to act as if we do.

In the literal sense, no, I don't think we have free will. If you could completely understand a person's genetic makeup, and take into account all of the things that have ever happened to her and how those environmental influences have changed her body/brain, you could likely predict how she would respond to every situation.

That said, the brain has evolved to control movement. So EVERYTHING isn't predetermined within any individual--there must be times where it is equally possible that a person respond to a situation in different ways, and either changes in the environment or some level of higher order cognition help decide the outcome.

And PKFFW: your comment is why I am always a little surprised at some of the "antimustachian" posts. Though I also acknowledge that it is probably just a normal in-group/ out-group thing to bond among common ideology and ridicule those who are different.

PKFFW

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2014, 03:29:56 AM »
And PKFFW: your comment is why I am always a little surprised at some of the "antimustachian" posts. Though I also acknowledge that it is probably just a normal in-group/ out-group thing to bond among common ideology and ridicule those who are different.
My post wasn't meant as antimustachian.  I'm very much in favour of Mustachianism.  I just find it surprising that so many seemingly believe there is no free will and yet are happy to sit in judgement and heap scorn, ridicule and disdain on those who are in debt or poor or make bad financial decisions.  It seems rather paradoxical that someone would hold such a belief and act in such a way.  I suppose as arebelspy pointed out though, it is easy enough to rationalise it away by believing that one has no choice in the matter.

MoneyCat

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2014, 09:48:40 AM »
Yes, free will exists.  If it didn't exist, then absolutely nothing would have any meaning.

I don't know what you mean by meaning, but that doesn't seem true to me. If you think there is any "meaning," determinism doesn't change that. There's still the same "meaning," it's just determined who will or won't achieve it.  (If you achieve meaning, I guess, I'm still not sure what it means, but I don't see things being determined ruining anything.  And, even if it did, so what?  If your definition of  meaning was based on X, and X wasn't the case, that doesn't suddenly make X the case just because you rely on it for "meaning.")

If everything is determined in your life before you are even born, then whatever you do has no true impact on the results you will get.  Therefore, one may as well just kill oneself, because one's life is pointless.  That's what I mean and that's why I have to believe in free will.

arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2014, 10:19:37 AM »

Yes, free will exists.  If it didn't exist, then absolutely nothing would have any meaning.

I don't know what you mean by meaning, but that doesn't seem true to me. If you think there is any "meaning," determinism doesn't change that. There's still the same "meaning," it's just determined who will or won't achieve it.  (If you achieve meaning, I guess, I'm still not sure what it means, but I don't see things being determined ruining anything.  And, even if it did, so what?  If your definition of  meaning was based on X, and X wasn't the case, that doesn't suddenly make X the case just because you rely on it for "meaning.")

If everything is determined in your life before you are even born, then whatever you do has no true impact on the results you will get.  Therefore, one may as well just kill oneself, because one's life is pointless.  That's what I mean and that's why I have to believe in free will.

You still haven't defined meaning, but let's move on.

Addressing bold point 1: No. What you do has an impact. It will be a determinant/cause for other things in the future.

Point 2:  Whether or not you kill yourself is determined. You will or won't be able to make that choice even if you do believe life is pointless, based on all your previous determinants.  Even if you think life is pointless, you may know that your suicide would cause pain to people you love, so you don't do it.  Instead you do things that make those people happy. And that adds "meaning," IMO. Even if you didn't have a choice in it.
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MoneyCat

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2014, 10:44:37 AM »

Yes, free will exists.  If it didn't exist, then absolutely nothing would have any meaning.

I don't know what you mean by meaning, but that doesn't seem true to me. If you think there is any "meaning," determinism doesn't change that. There's still the same "meaning," it's just determined who will or won't achieve it.  (If you achieve meaning, I guess, I'm still not sure what it means, but I don't see things being determined ruining anything.  And, even if it did, so what?  If your definition of  meaning was based on X, and X wasn't the case, that doesn't suddenly make X the case just because you rely on it for "meaning.")

If everything is determined in your life before you are even born, then whatever you do has no true impact on the results you will get.  Therefore, one may as well just kill oneself, because one's life is pointless.  That's what I mean and that's why I have to believe in free will.

You still haven't defined meaning, but let's move on.

Addressing bold point 1: No. What you do has an impact. It will be a determinant/cause for other things in the future.

Point 2:  Whether or not you kill yourself is determined. You will or won't be able to make that choice even if you do believe life is pointless, based on all your previous determinants.  Even if you think life is pointless, you may know that your suicide would cause pain to people you love, so you don't do it.  Instead you do things that make those people happy. And that adds "meaning," IMO. Even if you didn't have a choice in it.

I am going to move forward assuming that you are a follower of Ayn Rand, because your philosophy appears to be that everything occurs as it was meant to occur, so all our actions are predetermined, therefore we have no true impact on what will happen, because this was determined by all previous actions.  Correct me if I am wrong.  If this is true, then we can do whatever we want, whenever we want, because we are not truly responsible for our actions, since everything that has happened to us previously has determined what our actions will be.  Therefore, one can rob, cheat, steal, and be otherwise selfish, because this is what was meant to happen.

"Meaning" should be self-evident.

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2014, 10:56:07 AM »
What does it mean when I determine an action by flipping a coin? That one was predetermined to flip the coin, or that the coin would always come up the way it did?

Either way, I'm not buying it. The universe doesn't know what it's going to do, and nobody else does either. Even if you consider time as nonlinear, which time is admittedly complicated, there is still no way to get information through there.

arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2014, 10:59:12 AM »
I am going to move forward assuming that you are a follower of Ayn Rand, because your philosophy appears to be that everything occurs as it was meant to occur, so all our actions are predetermined, therefore we have no true impact on what will happen, because this was determined by all previous actions.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Your assumptions are wrong. 

I'm not a fan of Rand. I am a libertarian, but disagree with her overly simplified capitalism, and strongly disagree with her ethical egoism.

Why on earth would you make that assumption to begin with?  It seems very out of the blue.

If this is true, then we can do whatever we want, whenever we want, because we are not truly responsible for our actions, since everything that has happened to us previously has determined what our actions will be.  Therefore, one can rob, cheat, steal, and be otherwise selfish, because this is what was meant to happen.

No. What have I ever done or said to make you think I would approve of those things?

One ought not do those things, and I use ought in an ethical sense.

I can't fathom what would make you think all determinists are assholes with no morals.  Some weird cause in your past, obviously.

It is not the case.

Ethics are just as important, if not more so, in a deterministic world.  They make it better and are causal events that make more good things.

"Meaning" should be self-evident.

I've found it's different for different people, meaning it's not self-evident.

Do you have a definition?  It seems like not, but I don't want to assume.
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arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2014, 11:01:59 AM »
What does it mean when I determine an action by flipping a coin? That one was predetermined to flip the coin, or that the coin would always come up the way it did?

Both.

Either way, I'm not buying it. The universe doesn't know what it's going to do, and nobody else does either. Even if you consider time as nonlinear, which time is admittedly complicated, there is still no way to get information through there.

Knowing what's going to happen is irrelevant to it being determined. Even if the universe" doesn't know, nor does anyone else, and if time is nonlinear, or linear. 

One doesn't need to be able to know what will happen for it not to be able to happen any other way.
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Re: Free Will
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2014, 02:35:07 PM »
No. What have I ever done or said to make you think I would approve of those things?

One ought not do those things, and I use ought in an ethical sense.

I can't fathom what would make you think all determinists are assholes with no morals.  Some weird cause in your past, obviously.

It is not the case.

Ethics are just as important, if not more so, in a deterministic world.  They make it better and are causal events that make more good things.
I wont speak for MoneyCat but I didn't see their comment as being directed at you personally.  I saw it as a general "you" in reference to a deterministic point of view.  You personally obviously do not approve of those things and quite obviously not all determinists are assholes with no morals.

However, whilst I agree that one ought not do mean, selfish and nasty things, if one does truly believe in a deterministic view point then there is no reason not to.  If you did actually do those things then it was determined that you do them and you could have done nothing else so why bother even attempting to choose not to?  Other than to make yourself feel good about yourself, which would have been a predetermined action anyway.

As for ethics being important in a deterministic world, I don't see how that could be.  If everything is predetermined then whether one acts ethically or not makes no difference to the predetermined outcome and is in fact merely the way one was predetermined to act.  Ethics are no more or less important or have any more or less impact on the predetermined course of events than any other action.

Personally, I'm not sure what I think the answer to the question is.  I like the idea of free will but I can see the logic in the argument for determinism.  I don't think we have enough evidence one way or the other and it kind of reminds me of arguments about the existence of god really.

Daisy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2014, 03:48:07 PM »
For those that believe in determinism vs. free will, what is the source of this determinism?

I kind of view determinism then as a person being controlled by a puppet master, and just following along in their movements and thoughts (or how can you have thoughts at all?) as the strings that are your predetermined actions play themselves out. Who/what is the puppetmaster then?

Or, you are just a software program executing the code that was programmed in you. Who/what is the source of this program?

I guess what I'm getting at is that is seems like determinists MUST believe in some kind of higher intelligence or power that determined what your deterministic life would be like. But, I have a feeling determinists tend to be atheists....just a guess don't really know.

The determinist view seems to be so fatalistic as you are not a thinking person, just someone created/existing carrying on with your pre-programmed destiny. In my view, it's kind of a dark and defeatist way to live your life.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

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Free Will
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2014, 05:01:53 PM »
There's not someone controlling you.  It's just that you make what feels like a free choice but it's determined by all the causal determinants. You make that choice because it's the only choice you could have made given all that has happened before in the universe up to this point.

Quick, think of any noun and say it out loud. Anything.

...

What you said, or didn't, wasn't forced onto you, but it's the only thing you could have said given everything that's happened to you and everything you've thought and done to this point.

Free will is an absurd point of view.

How could you have said anything else except what you did (or didn't)?  Seriously, how could you have done something else?

What you did we may not have been able to predict, but that's not relevant. Even if it was something that seems completely random, there was causal determinants that is why you acted the way you did.

(Some theists think there is determinism because God knows everything we'll do before we do it, so how could we have done otherwise, but I don't fall into that camp.)
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matchewed

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2014, 05:02:37 PM »
For those that believe in determinism vs. free will, what is the source of this determinism?

I kind of view determinism then as a person being controlled by a puppet master, and just following along in their movements and thoughts (or how can you have thoughts at all?) as the strings that are your predetermined actions play themselves out. Who/what is the puppetmaster then?

Or, you are just a software program executing the code that was programmed in you. Who/what is the source of this program?

I guess what I'm getting at is that is seems like determinists MUST believe in some kind of higher intelligence or power that determined what your deterministic life would be like. But, I have a feeling determinists tend to be atheists....just a guess don't really know.

The determinist view seems to be so fatalistic as you are not a thinking person, just someone created/existing carrying on with your pre-programmed destiny. In my view, it's kind of a dark and defeatist way to live your life.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

There doesn't have to be a singular source for determinism. If you look at simple causality for a model of determinism (if A happens then B will happen) we don't need to say that there is a puppet master or a source for software code computing A then B. Think about the large theories of the world. I know if I shoot a light source in a vacuum it will go at a very specific speed. It has been determined. Does that prove a higher power? Nope.

Determinists do not have to believe in a higher intelligence or power. It is silly to just insert that upon them.

Daisy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2014, 06:33:38 PM »
There's not someone controlling you.  It's just that you make what feels like a free choice but it's determined by all the causal determinants. You make that choice because it's the only choice you could have made given all that has happened before in the universe up to this point.

Quick, think of any noun and say it out loud. Anything.

...

What you said, or didn't, wasn't forced onto you, but it's the only thing you could have said given everything that's happened to you and everything you've thought and done to this point.

Free will is an absurd point of view.

How could you have said anything else except what you did (or didn't)?  Seriously, how could you have done something else?

What you did we may not have been able to predict, but that's not relevant. Even if it was something that seems completely random, there was causal determinants that is why you acted the way you did.

(Some theists think there is determinism because God knows everything we'll do before we do it, so how could we have done otherwise, but I don't fall into that camp.)

I don't mean to be antagonistic...just trying to understand the determinist theory. You are right that there are some that believe in God that think their life has been pre-determined. So what's the atheist viewpoint?

How can thinking we have free will be absurd, when it was what I was supposed to say or believe based on what happened to me in the past? How can anything be absurd? How can you make judgement on anyone or hold anyone accountable to their actions if not for free will?

Also, I'm not sure how a libertarian can also be a determinist. BTW, I consider myself a libertarian. How could freedom exist without free will? What is freedom in a determinisic viewpoint?

I'm not sure if you trust Wikipedia as a source, but here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
Quote
The term libertarianism originally referred to a philosophical belief in free will but later became associated with anti-state socialism and Enlightenment-influenced political movements critical of institutional authority believed to serve forms of social domination and injustice. While it has generally retained its earlier political usage as a synonym for either social or individualist anarchism through much of the world, in the United States it has since come to describe pro-capitalist economic liberalism more so than radical, anti-capitalist egalitarianism. In the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, libertarianism is defined as the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things.

Quote

The term libertarian was first used by late-Enlightenment free-thinkers to refer to the metaphysical belief in free will, as opposed to determinism. The first recorded use was in 1789, when William Belsham wrote about libertarianism in opposition to "necessitarian", i.e. determinist, views.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 06:44:56 PM by Daisy »

Daisy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2014, 06:39:45 PM »
There doesn't have to be a singular source for determinism. If you look at simple causality for a model of determinism (if A happens then B will happen) we don't need to say that there is a puppet master or a source for software code computing A then B. Think about the large theories of the world. I know if I shoot a light source in a vacuum it will go at a very specific speed. It has been determined. Does that prove a higher power? Nope.

Determinists do not have to believe in a higher intelligence or power. It is silly to just insert that upon them.

So if A happens, then B happens. What caused A? At some point in the past, was there a singular thing that happened that triggered everything else that happened?

I don't mean this in a God kind of way, if that throws off the conversation. I'm just curious what you think "determines" the multitude of things that can possibly occur.

As far as the light analogy, I believe there are a certain set of rules that exist in the physical realm that everything adheres to...the laws of nature. But free will is more of the impetus, the spark, that triggers something to happen. What caused you to shoot the light source? What caused you to choose your field of study? What caused you to pick your spouse?

How can we congratulate and look up to any positive qualities such as heroism, courage, dedication, or even knowledge, as that would just be what you were supposed to do based on all of the actions in your life up to that point? Or how can you get upset at anyone for anything they do to hurt you or society? Murder? Neglect? Controlling behavior?

matchewed

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2014, 07:42:03 PM »
There doesn't have to be a singular source for determinism. If you look at simple causality for a model of determinism (if A happens then B will happen) we don't need to say that there is a puppet master or a source for software code computing A then B. Think about the large theories of the world. I know if I shoot a light source in a vacuum it will go at a very specific speed. It has been determined. Does that prove a higher power? Nope.

Determinists do not have to believe in a higher intelligence or power. It is silly to just insert that upon them.

So if A happens, then B happens. What caused A? At some point in the past, was there a singular thing that happened that triggered everything else that happened?
A predecessor to A. And I don't know, in physics time may not have existed before the big bang so yes-ish.
I don't mean this in a God kind of way, if that throws off the conversation. I'm just curious what you think "determines" the multitude of things that can possibly occur.

All the multitude of variables in the system determines the singular thing which does occur. You're putting the cart before the horse when you're talking about possibilities of what may occur. Determinism is speaking of that which does occur.

As far as the light analogy, I believe there are a certain set of rules that exist in the physical realm that everything adheres to...the laws of nature. But free will is more of the impetus, the spark, that triggers something to happen. What caused you to shoot the light source? What caused you to choose your field of study? What caused you to pick your spouse?

How can we congratulate and look up to any positive qualities such as heroism, courage, dedication, or even knowledge, as that would just be what you were supposed to do based on all of the actions in your life up to that point? Or how can you get upset at anyone for anything they do to hurt you or society? Murder? Neglect? Controlling behavior?

My point being is that free will is just an illusion. Given evolution when did free will enter the picture? It doesn't matter if we're talking about the speed of light, or gorillas using sticks as tools, or us more advanced monkeys using computers as tools. Determinism would say that the things that have happened could only have happened in that system.

You can celebrate positive qualities by valuing them. They're good for that system. I can get upset at negative things because they're bad for that same system. Alternatively I could just feel that way because it has been determined that I will through all the various inputs which determine how I feel about things.

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2014, 08:29:03 PM »


So if A happens, then B happens. What caused A? At some point in the past, was there a singular thing that happened that triggered everything else that happened?


Ah yes, the argument from first cause.  However, nobody has proven to me that time does not extend backwards indefinitely.  Or, consider the theory of the mobius, where time becomes a loop becomes a loop becomes a loop.

Anyways, if we were able to see our destinies manifest themselves visually, then we would be given a choice to betray our chosen destiny. The mere fact that this choice exists would make all pre-formed destiny come to an end.  Unless, that is, you travel within God's channel.






In other words, a particle could do A or B (we think).  We can't know, and at the last second it does A. 

That's not at all how it works. The particle essentially did both until the wave function collapses. We can tell because the damn thing interferes with itself.

You're missing the point. Quantum theory doesn't pose a threat to determinism because when it collapses, how do you know it could have collapsed to the other?  A determinist would say it couldn't have.

In the many world's theory, there is one universe in which particle does A, and another in which particle does B.  Likewise, there's a universe in which you "decided" to eat the chocolate cake, and one in which you did not.  So in each universe, you were predetermined to do different things.  But maybe we can choose our universe.

arebelspy

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2014, 07:33:02 AM »
How can thinking we have free will be absurd, when it was what I was supposed to say or believe based on what happened to me in the past?

There's no judgement around it, but things can be absurd even if you couldn't have thought differently.

Think about someone indoctrinated from birth to believe something.  They're now, say, 8 years old.  They were isolated and something weird was drummed into them.  You probably think they very nearly couldn't have believed differently just because of how psychology and brainwashing works, even if you believe in free will.  Yet you may think what they believe is absurd, even if they didn't have a choice in it.  You may not judge them for it though.  But they can still think something absurd even if they had no "choice" in it.

How can anything be absurd?

If I program a computer to spit out that 1+1 = 3, that's absurd, even if determined.  I don't blame the computer, it just is what it is.

How can you make judgement on anyone or hold anyone accountable to their actions if not for free will?

You've brought up judgement several times now.  Why do you feel the constant need to judge?

Also, I'm not sure how a libertarian can also be a determinist. BTW, I consider myself a libertarian. How could freedom exist without free will? What is freedom in a determinisic viewpoint?

I didn't say we didn't think we had free will.  Almost everyone does, and pretty much everyone has to act as if we do.  Therefore some beliefs are better than others, even if predetermined.  Some beliefs lead to better outcomes, and propagating them leads to a better world (even if you didn't have a choice in doing so).  Libertarianism is one of these, IMO.
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