Forum "Tone"

[Nancy]

Oh, you guys were using girl variables.  Carry on then.

I don't think the mods appreciate your uncivil tone.  Better be careful, all it takes is one person to click that "report" button and you get censored.

I wonder how often that button gets pressed.  I may have already reported all of your posts.

I've definitely accidentally clicked on report to moderator at least once. I couldn't explain how it happened. Perhaps I click around nonsensically while not paying attention. In any case, I wish there were a "Doh!" button that you could click to take it back.

[arebelspy]

I've definitely accidentally clicked on report to moderator at least once. I couldn't explain how it happened. Perhaps I click around nonsensically while not paying attention. In any case, I wish there were a "Doh!" button that you could click to take it back.

The report to moderator button takes you to another page where you have the option to enter a comment and submit it.

(Go ahead and try it.)

If you didn't do the latter, we never saw it, so don't worry.  :)

[sherr]

when the general tone is loving, sarcasm and joking are taken as such. 

Woah, woah, woah.... I didn't know it was that kind of forum.

My vote:  any thread with any derivative of "Obama" in the thread title is apt to devolve into angry gibberish pretty quickly.  Go find one, and count the posts until the vitriol seeps through your screen.

n < 5.

Non-engineer/math person here. N is less than 5? Meaning 5 posts until it's a hatefest? I don't read the political threads because I just get annoyed.

He means that the sample size is too small to make any conclusions.  I wouldn't know, since I avoid any thread with "Obama" in the title since I know it won't end well.

Actually, she did mean fewer than five posts before the hatefest starts, but 1) she was probably exaggerating a bit and 2) you're probably right about the staple size. :-)

I got a math reference! *does happy dance*

Oh, you guys were using girl variables.  Carry on then.

?

N is the variable used almost any time you are counting things, as an engineering / math type I would never dream of limiting it to sample size in statistical analysis. It handily begins the word "number".

I also have noticed a tone change in the forum recently. I think it has contributed to a decline in my posting frequency. I know several times now I have had a response all typed up and ready to go, only to delete it when I decided I didn't want to be involved in a flame war. I'm glad we're doing something to head the negativity off at the pass, some corners of the internet are remarkably unpleasant places. I'm wiling to do my part to help.

[Zelda01]

I recently fled from a much loved financial board because one particular person, who was unfortunately was a moderator, was just plain mean when anyone dared to disagree.

Me too.  I wonder if it was the same forum we fled.

Here at the MMM forum, we know what the owners stand for, the moderators are in sync with that message, and none of them are trying to work out emotional issues on a public forum.

So there's that.

[Nancy]

I've definitely accidentally clicked on report to moderator at least once. I couldn't explain how it happened. Perhaps I click around nonsensically while not paying attention. In any case, I wish there were a "Doh!" button that you could click to take it back.

The report to moderator button takes you to another page where you have the option to enter a comment and submit it.

(Go ahead and try it.)

If you didn't do the latter, we never saw it, so don't worry.  :)

Oh, excellent! Thanks!

[SunshineGirl]

I applaud this effort and am quite thankful to the moderators. I always appreciate the variety of views presented here, and I appreciate those who play devil's advocate because they get me to think differently and sometimes outside my comfort zone, so I hope no one stops playing those roles.

[Kriegsspiel]

This comic has the word "tone" in it, so it may be relevant.

[dragoncar]

when the general tone is loving, sarcasm and joking are taken as such. 

Woah, woah, woah.... I didn't know it was that kind of forum.

My vote:  any thread with any derivative of "Obama" in the thread title is apt to devolve into angry gibberish pretty quickly.  Go find one, and count the posts until the vitriol seeps through your screen.

n < 5.

Non-engineer/math person here. N is less than 5? Meaning 5 posts until it's a hatefest? I don't read the political threads because I just get annoyed.

He means that the sample size is too small to make any conclusions.  I wouldn't know, since I avoid any thread with "Obama" in the title since I know it won't end well.

Actually, she did mean fewer than five posts before the hatefest starts, but 1) she was probably exaggerating a bit and 2) you're probably right about the staple size. :-)

I got a math reference! *does happy dance*

Oh, you guys were using girl variables.  Carry on then.

?

N is the variable used almost any time you are counting things, as an engineering / math type I would never dream of limiting it to sample size in statistical analysis. It handily begins the word "number".

As an engineer, you probably aren't exposed to girl variables very often, so I can forgive the misunderstanding.  FYI, boys tend to use "i" for counting.  Recent studies show that this is probably a result of different hormones leading to a narcissistic world view.

[RetiredAt63]

We are getting off topic - but in a fun direction.  My favourite math is stats - if I am labeling items it might be x₁, x₂, x_i  but a sub-sample's size would be n and the total sample size would be N.  Same for biostats and ecological stats. 

And speaking of tone, what is with "girlie" and "guy" terminology?  Never heard that re math labels.

Which brings us to a politician story.  I may not have the wording right but the essence is here.  Many years ago Trudeau senior (that would be Pierre, not Justin, for those who want to google him, very interesting man) was speaking with some humans of the female gender.  He addressed them as "ladies" and they said "no".  He tried "girls" and they said "no". He asked them how they should be referred to and they told him "we are women".  Exactly.   And Judy LaMarsh was the one I first heard say the oldie "A woman's place is in the house - and the Senate".  Sigh, our politicians are so dull lately.

[daverobev]

I thought i was more of a programmer thing? Integer, obviously...

How I hated f_x.

[grantmeaname]

I wonder how often that button gets pressed.  I may have already reported all of your posts.

I press it all day every day. Kill the spam! Kill kill kill!

[dragoncar]

I wonder how often that button gets pressed.  I may have already reported all of your posts.

I press it all day every day. Kill the spam! Kill kill kill!

Appreciated-  I've never seen a bit of spam on the forum.  I must have thought the spam fairy was taking it all away or something, but it turns out it was you and that moderator button!

[Self-employed-swami]

I've never seen spam either.

[grantmeaname]

Often it'll be a first time poster with something relevant to say about a topic that requires buying things, like the jewelry threads or kitchen renovation threads. If you see a first time poster post a link, there's about a 300% chance that it's bullshit. Then, you move in for the kill.

EDIT: New members of the community are super and great, of course. It's just that a post count of "1" or "2" merits skepticism, not that human new members with substantive links shouldn't post them.

[Self-employed-swami]

Often it'll be a first time poster with something relevant to say about a topic that requires buying things, like the jewelry threads or kitchen renovation threads. If you see a first time poster post a link, there's about a 300% chance that it's bullshit. Then, you move in for the kill.

Ahh.  I don't read those threads, usually.

[tomsang]

I wonder how often that button gets pressed.  I may have already reported all of your posts.

I press it all day every day. Kill the spam! Kill kill kill!

Looks like we found our moderator, kill the middleperson when you can skip a step. Of course, that is assuming he isn't kill happy. That picture looks a little skeptical:).

[Paul der Krake]

I just realized that arebelspy is past the 5000 posts mark, and now my conspiracy theories are out in full swing. Clearly he must be a puppet for an underground cohort of posters here all sharing his account, there is no way anyone could have so much free time!

[Daley]

I just realized that arebelspy is past the 5000 posts mark, and now my conspiracy theories are out in full swing. Clearly he must be a puppet for an underground cohort of posters here all sharing his account, there is no way anyone could have so much free time!

Over 5k now, eh?

Postcount++

(He says when dinging 1180.)

[EMP]

I just realized that arebelspy is past the 5000 posts mark, and now my conspiracy theories are out in full swing. Clearly he must be a puppet for an underground cohort of posters here all sharing his account, there is no way anyone could have so much free time!

Over 5k now, eh?

Postcount++

(He says when dinging 1180.)

Yeah, I could have sworn there was something about you not being able to spend too much time with this or post too often in the SuperGuide.  ;)

[Daley]

I just realized that arebelspy is past the 5000 posts mark, and now my conspiracy theories are out in full swing. Clearly he must be a puppet for an underground cohort of posters here all sharing his account, there is no way anyone could have so much free time!

Over 5k now, eh?

Postcount++

(He says when dinging 1180.)

Yeah, I could have sworn there was something about you not being able to spend too much time with this or post too often in the SuperGuide.  ;)

My talents haven't been as useful in the field for the remaining work needed on tornado recovery these days, so I'm jockeying the computer on a regular basis again. It's been three months here in a couple days, and communications infrastructure has mostly been restored at this point. I still assist when and where I can, but with the exception of a few smaller pockets like Bethel Acres, life's mostly returning back to normal for a lot of folks... myself included. :)

[EMP]

I just realized that arebelspy is past the 5000 posts mark, and now my conspiracy theories are out in full swing. Clearly he must be a puppet for an underground cohort of posters here all sharing his account, there is no way anyone could have so much free time!

Over 5k now, eh?

Postcount++

(He says when dinging 1180.)

Yeah, I could have sworn there was something about you not being able to spend too much time with this or post too often in the SuperGuide.  ;)

My talents haven't been as useful in the field for the remaining work needed on tornado recovery these days, so I'm jockeying the computer on a regular basis again. It's been three months here in a couple days, and communications infrastructure has mostly been restored at this point. I still assist when and where I can, but with the exception of a few smaller pockets like Bethel Acres, life's mostly returning back to normal for a lot of folks... myself included. :)

Good to hear. I was amazed at the recovery time when we drove through in early July.

[PolarBeer]

I have certainly noticed the influx of new members and the fact that there are many new threads about already discussed topics. Its hard to avoid this with the increased traffic. And for the old members who are on board with the lifestyle we'd rather see more philosophical discussion instead of having to repeat basic MMM principles over and over again. But I think that's where we're heading and I'm sure everything will be ok still.

However, I can't say that the tone has changed greatly. I understand the fear that it might, but this place is still quite friendly and civil. Every forum will sooner or later get their religion or politics fights, member influx or not.

What I fear the most however, is that the MMM philosophy will be watered out and that the forums will turn into useless, unambitious economic advice of the mainstream media flavor. I've seen some examples of that, and that's when I will abandon this place.

[grantmeaname]

I have certainly noticed the influx of new members and the fact that there are many new threads about already discussed topics. Its hard to avoid this with the increased traffic. And for the old members who are on board with the lifestyle we'd rather see more philosophical discussion instead of having to repeat basic MMM principles over and over again. But I think that's where we're heading and I'm sure everything will be ok still.

We were repeating topics even before you joined the forums. There are a billion recipe threads, for example. I just don't answer those threads if I don't feel like giving out the savings rate formula for the seventh time, and some of the newer posters do. I thought it was going to be a problem at first, but it really hasn't been.

Though I do think that new posters could get a lot out of the search tool.

[Paul der Krake]

What I fear the most however, is that the MMM philosophy will be watered out and that the forums will turn into useless, unambitious economic advice of the mainstream media flavor. I've seen some examples of that, and that's when I will abandon this place.

Playing devil's advocate here. What you are afraid of could very well go the opposite way with a radicalization of the general discourse (hi NSA!). Not unheard of on a forum with a core group of enthusiastic posters embracing a radical radical shift in mainstream behavior centered around one particular individual.

Now thankfully this hasn't been the case too much yet because members of this board usually know how not to take themselves too seriously.

[Albert]

If moderators religiously enforce one thread only for every topic it leads eventually to much diminished activity. I've seen it on few other (non-financial) boards.

[Nords]

Before anyone can appropriately engage these specific unnamed people (and let us not point fingers publicly or privately), we need to establish some firm community guidelines first as until this point, there's been nothing official making it clear that what they were doing wasn't okay despite the fact that their behavior already bristles against civilized adult conventions.

Hence rule #1:  "Don't be a jerk".

The rest of the rules are just variations on rule #1.  If someone doesn't understand rule #1 then they won't understand the rest of the rulebook, either.  However that's irrelevant because they'll soon be asked to leave.

Looks like this forum is approaching an inflection point in both growth & civility.  Luckily the first derivative is still positive.

Early-Retirement.org used the analogy of the local bar:  a nice neighborhood hangout where everyone knew each other and could get together for a convivial libation or two during the day.  If anyone raised a ruckus then the bartender could have a quiet word with them or maybe show them the door. 

Then a few Yelpers stampeded a huge crowd (probably eager to try all the craft brews) and the owner had to expand the server bandwidth capacity.  Next thing you know, the velvet ropes and the bouncers are guarding the doors and the interior noise level is way up.  It might still be a nice place, but it's never gonna be a quiet bar again.

[JellyBean]

I have certainly noticed the influx of new members and the fact that there are many new threads about already discussed topics. Its hard to avoid this with the increased traffic. And for the old members who are on board with the lifestyle we'd rather see more philosophical discussion instead of having to repeat basic MMM principles over and over again. But I think that's where we're heading and I'm sure everything will be ok still.

We were repeating topics even before you joined the forums. There are a billion recipe threads, for example. I just don't answer those threads if I don't feel like giving out the savings rate formula for the seventh time, and some of the newer posters do. I thought it was going to be a problem at first, but it really hasn't been.

Though I do think that new posters could get a lot out of the search tool.

Let's keep the discussion open and flowing.
Contribute if you like, or don't. That's fine too.
I've come across a few forums where everyone is a little too quick (and rude) to jump on the whole use the search tool thing.

If all that needs to be said has already been said in a previous post then this forum will dry up pretty quickly if we discourage others from getting involved.

[grantmeaname]

That's not what I was getting at at all. Threads for reference purposes like recipes are a million times more useful if there's one of them rather than four, and using the search tool prevents that fragmentation.

I agree that there's a happy medium when it comes to "use the search" prodding (which a lot of tech forums go far past), but I think we're on the other side of it.

[CB]

I've noticed more tinfoil hat types posting either unsubstantiated information (e.g., someone claiming that "true" U.S. inflation is currently 10% without any evidence) or conspiracy-theory-ish speculation (e.g., someone quoting a goldbug website that cherry-picks data to claim that we're nearly in the throes of yet another in a string of "bear" markets).

My standard response to these types of posts is to type out a scathing reply, lambasting the poster for spouting misinformation and idiocy.  Then I promptly delete the reply without posting.  So far this approach seems to be working okay for me, though it would be nice to see fewer post from those who are either trolling, disingenuous, or just fucking nuts.

[Kazimieras]

I've noticed more tinfoil hat types posting either unsubstantiated information (e.g., someone claiming that "true" U.S. inflation is currently 10% without any evidence) or conspiracy-theory-ish speculation (e.g., someone quoting a goldbug website that cherry-picks data to claim that we're nearly in the throes of yet another in a string of "bear" markets).

My standard response to these types of posts is to type out a scathing reply, lambasting the poster for spouting misinformation and idiocy.  Then I promptly delete the reply without posting.  So far this approach seems to be working okay for me, though it would be nice to see fewer post from those who are either trolling, disingenuous, or just fucking nuts.

Agreed. There are a few too many people here that don't like this thing called 'facts'.

[grantmeaname]

Well, just share the facts in as reasonable a tone as you can, and maybe some of the many lurkers that read but don't post won't be sucked in by the bullshit. That's the ideal I try to live up to...

[EMP]

, though it would be nice to see fewer post from those who are either trolling, disingenuous, or just fucking nuts.

It would be nice to see less of these people everywhere.

[brewer12345]

Well, just share the facts in as reasonable a tone as you can, and maybe some of the many lurkers that read but don't post won't be sucked in by the bullshit. That's the ideal I try to live up to...

Except when you post facts in response you get gibberish/personal attacks/more tinfoil bullshit in return.

Thank god for the ignore list.

[grantmeaname]

Hey, I said I try, not that I always succeed. Even I get tired of the tinfoil from time to time...

Thank god for the ignore list.

QFT.

[PolarBeer]

I would expect this type of forum to attract more of the doomsday prepper / Fed conspiracy types compared to cat forums or gaming forums.

[brewer12345]

I would expect this type of forum to attract more of the doomsday prepper / Fed conspiracy types compared to cat forums or gaming forums.

There seem to be more than enough to go around.

[Malloy]

I would expect this type of forum to attract more of the doomsday prepper / Fed conspiracy types compared to cat forums or gaming forums.

There seem to be more than enough to go around.

I finally delurked after being a long-time reader mostly because other thrifty/frugal communities are chock full of those doomsday prepper types.   I mean, I like learning about coupons as much as the next person, but I hate having to wade through 500 posts about gold to do it.  Some people need the boogeyman of the apocalypse to light a fire under their saving and frugality efforts. It isn't enough to save because it makes your financial situation better; there has to be some big conspiracy that you are foiling by buying gold coins.

I like the attitude here, where people focus more on frugality as a means towards general wellness.  There is a less panicked attitude, and I get the sense that the posters here value feeling in control of their financial situations by doing what is within their sphere of influence as opposed to panicking and reacting to things outside of their control.   

Now I'm worried that I am contributing to the tone problems by complaining about doomsday preppers.

[brewer12345]

I would expect this type of forum to attract more of the doomsday prepper / Fed conspiracy types compared to cat forums or gaming forums.

There seem to be more than enough to go around.

I finally delurked after being a long-time reader mostly because other thrifty/frugal communities are chock full of those doomsday prepper types.   I mean, I like learning about coupons as much as the next person, but I hate having to wade through 500 posts about gold to do it.  Some people need the boogeyman of the apocalypse to light a fire under their saving and frugality efforts. It isn't enough to save because it makes your financial situation better; there has to be some big conspiracy that you are foiling by buying gold coins.

I like the attitude here, where people focus more on frugality as a means towards general wellness.  There is a less panicked attitude, and I get the sense that the posters here value feeling in control of their financial situations by doing what is within their sphere of influence as opposed to panicking and reacting to things outside of their control.   

Now I'm worried that I am contributing to the tone problems by complaining about doomsday preppers.

Eh, they walk among us regardless of what you say or post.

I am by no means a doomsday type, but I still have water and food stored in the basement, have a just in case generator and some gasoline on hand, keep some folding money on the property, and own several firearms and ammo to go with them (I hunt).  For me this is just emergency preparedness and a low cost way to hedge some extremely nasty (if very unlikely) possible events.

[dragoncar]

I would expect this type of forum to attract more of the doomsday prepper / Fed conspiracy types compared to cat forums or gaming forums.

There seem to be more than enough to go around.

I finally delurked after being a long-time reader mostly because other thrifty/frugal communities are chock full of those doomsday prepper types.   I mean, I like learning about coupons as much as the next person, but I hate having to wade through 500 posts about gold to do it.  Some people need the boogeyman of the apocalypse to light a fire under their saving and frugality efforts. It isn't enough to save because it makes your financial situation better; there has to be some big conspiracy that you are foiling by buying gold coins.

I like the attitude here, where people focus more on frugality as a means towards general wellness.  There is a less panicked attitude, and I get the sense that the posters here value feeling in control of their financial situations by doing what is within their sphere of influence as opposed to panicking and reacting to things outside of their control.   

Now I'm worried that I am contributing to the tone problems by complaining about doomsday preppers.

Eh, they walk among us regardless of what you say or post.

I am by no means a doomsday type, but I still have water and food stored in the basement, have a just in case generator and some gasoline on hand, keep some folding money on the property, and own several firearms and ammo to go with them (I hunt).  For me this is just emergency preparedness and a low cost way to hedge some extremely nasty (if very unlikely) possible events.

As you say, that's emergency preparedness that would be wise for the likes of Katrina, superstore, earthquakes, civil unrest, etc.  not doomsday, just the kind of thing that seems to happen annually in this country.

In a real prepper scenario, you would be woefully unprepared.  I guess that's why we don't have a lot of real peepers/doomsdayers here... In the event of doomsday I would be kicking myself for saving so much.  Instead, I should have bought 50k worth of supplies and a remote cabin and spent the rest lavishly.  It's not like our stocks or bonds will be worth anything. 

Edit: I guess it's about optimism.  Early retirement can't work unless you believe in the continued existence of a "market" and that it will continue to "go up."  This site isn't about saving, per se, it's about retirement (although we do talk tactics occasionally).

[Spork]

I would expect this type of forum to attract more of the doomsday prepper / Fed conspiracy types compared to cat forums or gaming forums.

There seem to be more than enough to go around.

I finally delurked after being a long-time reader mostly because other thrifty/frugal communities are chock full of those doomsday prepper types.   I mean, I like learning about coupons as much as the next person, but I hate having to wade through 500 posts about gold to do it.  Some people need the boogeyman of the apocalypse to light a fire under their saving and frugality efforts. It isn't enough to save because it makes your financial situation better; there has to be some big conspiracy that you are foiling by buying gold coins.

I like the attitude here, where people focus more on frugality as a means towards general wellness.  There is a less panicked attitude, and I get the sense that the posters here value feeling in control of their financial situations by doing what is within their sphere of influence as opposed to panicking and reacting to things outside of their control.   

Now I'm worried that I am contributing to the tone problems by complaining about doomsday preppers.

Eh, they walk among us regardless of what you say or post.

I am by no means a doomsday type, but I still have water and food stored in the basement, have a just in case generator and some gasoline on hand, keep some folding money on the property, and own several firearms and ammo to go with them (I hunt).  For me this is just emergency preparedness and a low cost way to hedge some extremely nasty (if very unlikely) possible events.

To me: that's just being smart.
You can prep for a week.
You might could prep for a month.

If you think you have enough food/weapons/water/fuel to hold off an army of (pick one: ninjas, zombies, governmental agents, jackbooted thugs) for more than about 5 minutes, you're deluded. 

Along those same lines: you can prep your portfolio for a hiccup or a correction.  You can't prepare it for the raining death of hell.

So: why bother?  Prep for what you CAN prep for and shrug the rest off as a 0.00000000001% chance and move on.

[Mr.Macinstache]

I'm sure some of the hostility directed at gold bugs and doomsday prepper types are because of their political background affiliations. But I think if we look hard enough we'll find some extremities in all walks of life. I can sort of relate because I was one of the guys actually listening to those warning about the housing bubble and it's the reason I sold my house in 2008 for top dollar. Houses in my parents neighborhood were selling for $7-900,000. Since my parents were nearing retirement, I told them to sell sell sell because the market was going to crash soon. I was laughed at and called all kinds of names, crazy conspiracy theorist and so on. They were going to wait until their house was worth 1 million dollars before they'd sell! Ha! They finally sold their house this year for $469,000.

Regarding gold, even after the crash and current price now, it wasn't a bad deal back then. But I think most gold bugs don't realize that it's still a paper market that can be manipulated just like anything thing else. Fastforward now, and we have doomsday prepper shows with these freaks on there and Glen Beck and others pimping gold during the bubble and so on... so I understand where the bad rap comes from.

The irony of complaining about types of people in a "Tone" thread is not lost here.... I would hate to see the divisiveness take root on this forum. There are a lot of great people here and when things get negative its seems like some of the best and brightest are the first to leave.

[dragoncar]

I'm sure some of the hostility directed at gold bugs and doomsday prepper types are because of their political background affiliations. But I think if we look hard enough we'll find some extremities in all walks of life. I can sort of relate because I was one of the guys actually listening to those warning about the housing bubble and it's the reason I sold my house in 2008 for top dollar. Houses in my parents neighborhood were selling for $7-900,000. Since my parents were nearing retirement, I told them to sell sell sell because the market was going to crash soon. I was laughed at and called all kinds of names, crazy conspiracy theorist and so on. They were going to wait until their house was worth 1 million dollars before they'd sell! Ha! They finally sold their house this year for $469,000.

Regarding gold, even after the crash and current price now, it wasn't a bad deal back then. But I think most gold bugs don't realize that it's still a paper market that can be manipulated just like anything thing else. Fastforward now, and we have doomsday prepper shows with these freaks on there and Glen Beck and others pimping gold during the bubble and so on... so I understand where the bad rap comes from.

The irony of complaining about types of people in a "Tone" thread is not lost here.... I would hate to see the divisiveness take root on this forum. There are a lot of great people here and when things get negative its seems like some of the best and brightest are the first to leave.

I believe owning some gold is a good idea.  I think most people can hear that opinion without an adverse reaction.  But you are right that its a turn off when the post is "buy gold because Obama xyz" or whatever.

[CB]

I'm sure some of the hostility directed at gold bugs and doomsday prepper types are because of their political background affiliations.

I disagree; those sorts of things cross political boundaries.  Right now the loudest of these tend to be on the far-right fringe because of the current POTUS, but under Bush the far-left was likewise predicting the downfall of western society.  Some are just always agitated because the Fed and Keynsianism and Fiat Currency and Soverign Debt and Whargarbl of the Week.

Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that these folks tend to be the ones who are not interested in data, facts, or rational discourse.  Not very Mustachian if you ask me.

[Mr.Macinstache]

I'm sure some of the hostility directed at gold bugs and doomsday prepper types are because of their political background affiliations.

I disagree; those sorts of things cross political boundaries.  Right now the loudest of these tend to be on the far-right fringe because of the current POTUS, but under Bush the far-left was likewise predicting the downfall of western society.  Some are just always agitated because the Fed and Keynsianism and Fiat Currency and Soverign Debt and Whargarbl of the Week.

Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that these folks tend to be the ones who are not interested in data, facts, or rational discourse.  Not very Mustachian if you ask me.

There's always going to be someone from "a side" to rear their ugly head and argue about something political. It's a handful on any forum that only participate in those types of discussions and nothing else.

Personally I don't think excessive Govt spending and waste, fractional reserve banking and the Fed's monetary policy and is very Mustachian, but that's neither here or there. I'm not here to solve those problems... I'm here to become FI and enjoy like minded folks to share those ideals and methods to achieve that.

[arebelspy]

Okay, this thread has run its course.

Thanks all.