Author Topic: Fluoridation Discussion  (Read 7957 times)

RapidLionInvasion

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Fluoridation Discussion
« on: October 25, 2015, 01:49:18 PM »
I have a sensitivity to fluoride and our public water is flouridated, so I must have bottled spring water.  Most filters do not remove fluoride.  I have to have it at home and when we travel.  I did sign up for home pickup for recyclables.

After reading this post I became interested in fluoridation and I want to work out these topics:

(Also interested because I hear this alot in conspiracy theories lol)

1. Why do people want fluoridated water?
2. Why do people hate fluoridated water?
3. What is fluoride sensitivity?
4. How many people have fluoride sensitivity?
5. What are the best filters for fluoride? ***

/*startIrrelevant

6. How large of an environmental impact does bottled water make? ***
7. How the fuck do we stop people from drinking bottled water? ***

/end */

 ***Really important topic

So yeah, if anyone has some prior knowledge on this that'd be awesome.

marty998

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 02:20:23 PM »
1) Because it has a beneficial impact on the dental health of a population. Fluoride actually is a naturally occurring mineral in water, but is topped up to a level that helps prevent tooth decay.
2) One of the main objections of the 'haters' is the claim that the dosage cannot be controlled - your water company will add it at the reservoir and it may not be diluted evenly. Other objections simply centre around being misinformed about science (all chemicals are bad etc).
3) Never heard of this one... but a quick google search suggests some people may be hyper sensitive.
4) Impossible to know
5) A reverse osmosis filter will do the trick, however no filter will remove all traces of fluoride.

6. Can of worms...
7. When you convince people that it is safe to drink tap water - might not be possible in most parts of the world.

zataks

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 05:15:04 PM »
The benefit on dental health of drinking water fluoridation is debatable.  Fluoride is absolutely beneficial to your dental health.  But typically in concentrations significantly higher than is applied to drinking water.  That is, fluoride is beneficial when applied in high concentration directly to the teeth in acute applications.  Low dose, chronic fluoride application may not be beneficial and, in fact, may have health implications on the rest of the body. 

Never heard of people saying the dose can't be controlled unless you mean that the individual can not control it.  Water treatment facilities will very precisely dose the water with fluoride and it is regulated and monitored.  There may be minor fluctuations in dosage with diurnal or seasonal temperature changes or with large flow changes (typically seasonal as well). 

RO should reduce the amount of fluoride present to levels low enough that even someone with sensitivity is able to consume the water.

dramaman

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 06:43:41 PM »
I wrote a college paper on the fluoridation debate several years ago. Traditionally, the major objection is philosophical. They believe that it amounts to a government controlled medicating of the public water supply. That objection is then bolstered with any kind of scientific sounding argument that can introduce FUD.

Fluoridation became a general health policy after initial city wide test trials delivered such overwhelming positive results in the cities with fluoridation compared to the non-fluoridated control cities, that fluoridation was added to the control cities prior to the conclusion of the tests. In some minds, therefore, the scientific tests were never fully completed, providing another reason to doubt the benefits of fluoridation. From what I understand, however, researchers believe that when a new treatment does show to have overwhelming positive results in a study that it is unethical to deny the treatment from the test control subjects. I also question whether fully completing the test would have really made much of a difference as the core objection was really not with the science but over whether government should be adding 'medicine' to the public water supply.

In many ways, the fight against fluoridation is a precursor to that of global warming/climate change. The opponents reject vast scientific consensus and instead embrace any scientific sounding argument that agrees with the outcome that they want to believe.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 07:33:39 PM »
Fluoride even in small doses is very good for your teeth. Especially for people that only brush their teeth once a day or less.

ncornilsen

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 08:07:08 AM »
I wrote a college paper on the fluoridation debate several years ago. Traditionally, the major objection is philosophical. They believe that it amounts to a government controlled medicating of the public water supply. That objection is then bolstered with any kind of scientific sounding argument that can introduce FUD.

Fluoridation became a general health policy after initial city wide test trials delivered such overwhelming positive results in the cities with fluoridation compared to the non-fluoridated control cities, that fluoridation was added to the control cities prior to the conclusion of the tests. In some minds, therefore, the scientific tests were never fully completed, providing another reason to doubt the benefits of fluoridation. From what I understand, however, researchers believe that when a new treatment does show to have overwhelming positive results in a study that it is unethical to deny the treatment from the test control subjects. I also question whether fully completing the test would have really made much of a difference as the core objection was really not with the science but over whether government should be adding 'medicine' to the public water supply.

In many ways, the fight against fluoridation is a precursor to that of global warming/climate change. The opponents reject vast scientific consensus and instead embrace any scientific sounding argument that agrees with the outcome that they want to believe.

I tend to notice that those who oppose fluoride and GMOs tend to NOT be the same ground as those who are AGW skeptics. Funny how that works.

Bob W

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 08:53:33 AM »
Not a big fan of GMOs,  am a climate change caused by manmade sources believer.   

I also happen to have been the local public health leader who put Fluoridation on the ballot about 10 years ago in our small town.   It was very controversial.   It passed but recently the city stopped using it due to the fluoride eating up the pumping equipment.  It apparently is acidic.

I'm ambivalent about city water fluoridation at this point.  I'm on well water but drink tea all day long.  Most tea actually is higher in fluoride than city water.   Some ground water contains moderate to high levels of fluoride. 

People are exposed to fluoride from most soda/pop,  many beers,  many bottled waters and foods that are processed with city water.   

In our community it was a very good addition as children had terrible oral health issues.   My perception was that fluoridation improved people's oral health significantly while having very little downside. 

I have never heard of "sensitivity to fluoride?"   Chlorination of drinking and bathing water can definitely impact people in some negative ways in my opinion.     


unno2002

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 10:14:55 AM »
As I’ve posted in other forums, our daughter wrote a paper for college chemistry on fluoride, showing if you read the details from the American Dental Association (ADA), their own data cannot support ADA claims re fluoride in the water… or toothpaste… 

The ADA insists that drinking fluoridated water is good for our teeth… telling us, "Water that has been fortified with fluoride is similar to fortifying salt with iodine, milk with vitamin D and orange juice with vitamin C." 

-    One should note however that while the human body has a natural biological need for iodine, vitamin D and vitamin C to be capable of functioning properly, there is no showing that life processes need water fortified with fluoride to function. 

While the ADA condones giving fluoridated water to infants and children, to gain the pre-eruptive protection benefits, we must look at their tables in their own document Fluoride Facts, available at www.ada.com.

-    In Table 1, the ADA presents an apparent recommend daily diet supplement of fluoride if the water does not contain recommended fluoridation levels.  Looking at the first column of Fluoride ion levels in drinking water, we can make a logical assumption that <0.3 ppm includes the situation where the water contains no fluoride.  If this is accepted as a valid assumption, then translating the per age ADA recommendations in the column to daily consumption in liters of water fluoridated to a level of 0.7 mg/L (typical) we find that the recommended [maximum] consumption of fluorinated water would be:  Under six months, [essentially] NONE.  6 month to 3 years, 0.33 liter.  3 to 6 years, 0.66 liter.  6 to 16 years 1.33 liter.

-        For infants, the ADA Facts Table 3 indicates that "adequate intake" would be 0.01 mg per day.  An infant where water is fluoridated to 0.7 mg/L (the standard) would reach the "adequate" level by consuming around 15 ml (1/2 ounce) of tap water during the day. 

-        The apparent ADA "tolerable upper intake" (they don't use the word danger) level for chronic exposure of infants, 0.7 mg, would be reached by drinking only one full liter per day. 

Note that if you are using fluoridated water for cooking, since the fluoride is in the form of a salt dissolved in the water, as the water evaporates the fluoride remains in increased concentration. 

Logically the same concentrating occurs if the locations that grow or process foods are using fluoridated water. 

In warm weather, even with air conditioning, children and/or adults, 3 or 4 liters of water consumed per day would not be unusual.  Four liters would provide 2.8 mg of fluoride, which exceeds the "adequate intake" for everyone up until age 19, and exceeds the "tolerable upper intake" for everyone up to age 9.  Does this mean no one under the age of 9 should consume tap water fluoridated at 0.7 mg/L? 

Note, per the ADA the primary benefit to teeth of fluoride in water takes place before the tooth leaves the gums. (Fluoride in the blood)  In general, the permanent teeth are erupting by age six, and are therefore outside of the purported greatest benefit of fluoridated water.  If moderate consumption of 0.7 mg/L water exceeds the "tolerable upper intake" for those under nine, what is it we are doing for the children, or better phrased, what are we doing to the children? 

There are many sources of warning regarding fluoridation. 


GuitarStv

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 10:25:36 AM »
Fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face.





Deny them your essence.  Avoid fluoridation.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 10:46:34 AM »
GMOs are our future and will help support us when our population would otherwise be unsustainable.
Fluoride is good for your teeth.
Vaccines are good and don't cause autism.

dramaman

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2015, 10:57:39 AM »
In addition to the original scientific testing of fluoridating municipal water supplies proving overwhelming positive benefits of fluoridation, we now have a half century experience of it being done in municipalities around the U.S. If there were going to be any serious negative impacts we'd have seen it by now. Modern day arguments against fluoridation, however, bring nothing new to the table. All they perpetuate is the same type of fear, uncertainty and doubt that they've been passing around for the last 50 years. That's why I continue to believe that the objections are really based on philosophical objections rather than science.

Jack

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 12:39:19 PM »
Any discussion of the dangerous of fluoride misses the point -- dihydrogen monoxide is the real issue! The government puts it in our drinking water in huge concentrations (much higher concentration than fluoride), but it's incredibly dangerous: inhalation of even small quantities of it can cause death! It also contributes to acid rain and corrodes many metals, among other things. Wake up, sheeple! Tell your representative to ban DHMO today!

ncornilsen

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2015, 12:49:03 PM »
Any discussion of the dangerous of fluoride misses the point -- dihydrogen monoxide is the real issue! The government puts it in our drinking water in huge concentrations (much higher concentration than fluoride), but it's incredibly dangerous: inhalation of even small quantities of it can cause death! It also contributes to acid rain and corrodes many metals, among other things. Wake up, sheeple! Tell your representative to ban DHMO today!

DHMO also makes up about 70% of cancerous tissue, is necessary for the lifecycle of malaria and is found en mass where mosquitos reproduce, and certain phases of the substance can cause serious burns. Hitler and every mass murder known to history have been seen consuming this stuff. BAN IT NOW!

GuitarStv

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2015, 01:06:42 PM »
Is that what's been stealing my precious essence?

Jeremy E.

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2015, 01:20:51 PM »
Here's some of my thoughts on GMOs, for the record I think Nuclear as well as Solar Power are the best energy sources

dramaman

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2015, 01:29:47 PM »
Any discussion of the dangerous of fluoride misses the point -- dihydrogen monoxide is the real issue! The government puts it in our drinking water in huge concentrations (much higher concentration than fluoride), but it's incredibly dangerous: inhalation of even small quantities of it can cause death! It also contributes to acid rain and corrodes many metals, among other things. Wake up, sheeple! Tell your representative to ban DHMO today!

DHMO also makes up about 70% of cancerous tissue, is necessary for the lifecycle of malaria and is found en mass where mosquitos reproduce, and certain phases of the substance can cause serious burns. Hitler and every mass murder known to history have been seen consuming this stuff. BAN IT NOW!

DHMO also perpetuates socialism in that every known socialist must consume it or die!

acroy

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2015, 02:12:56 PM »

I also happen to have been the local public health leader who put Fluoridation on the ballot about 10 years ago in our small town.............. It passed but recently the city stopped using it due to the fluoride eating up the pumping equipment.  It apparently is acidic.
 

I LOL'ed!! hahaha!

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2015, 03:28:38 PM »
If you feel you are sensitive to fluoride, I used to have a countertop filter called a Tap Master Jr. that you can get with a fluoride-filtering cartridge. The cartridges are expensive but they last for freakin' ever.

My understanding is that the EPA(?) fairly recently lowered their recommendation for how much fluoride should be in tap water and that some municipalities have too much. However, the medical consensus is that the ONLY danger of consuming too much fluoride... is that it stains your teeth.

I just drink the water. I also used tap water to make baby formula. At that time, our tap water was officially un-fluoridated, but open further research, I learned that the naturally occurring levels of fluoride in the municipal water were, in fact adequate to protect my children's teeth. (Ped. was pushing fluoride supplements.)

zataks

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2015, 09:49:26 PM »

I also happen to have been the local public health leader who put Fluoridation on the ballot about 10 years ago in our small town.............. It passed but recently the city stopped using it due to the fluoride eating up the pumping equipment.  It apparently is acidic.
 

I LOL'ed!! hahaha!

I'm curious why that's laughable to you?  As stated I guess it seems silly because most people figure, "if we can drink it, how could it eat up pumping equipment?"  But water systems typically use hydrogen fluoride or fluosilicic acid both of which are dangerous and unpleasant, to achieve fluoridated water. 

I realize the other chemicals used in water treatment are dangerous and unpleasant too; we don't need to open that can of worms.  Just saying.

No Name Guy

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2015, 12:58:08 PM »
Dr. Strangelove - Precious Bodily Fluids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

...and fluoridation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2bSL5VQgM
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 01:00:41 PM by No Name Guy »

Lis

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2015, 01:47:52 PM »
Stop thinking of it as fluoride, and start thinking of it as #TDAZZLE - it's not a chemical, it's an aquatic-based social media oral experience.

MoonShadow

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Re: Fluoridation Discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2015, 01:55:37 PM »
I grew up in a city that adds fluoride to the water.  I never drank bottled water as a child, always tap water.  I have nearly perfect teeth, not getting my first cavity till I was 28.  The downside, it turns out, is that persistent, low doses of fluoride can contribute to gastric reflux disease later in life, which I have now.  The scientific support for this side effect is sketchy, at best; but I moved out of the city and now drink unfluronated tap water.

 

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