Author Topic: Inequality: the long view  (Read 28235 times)

Dabnasty

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #150 on: June 30, 2017, 12:48:05 PM »
Let's do a hypothetical.

Let's say you feel it is unfair to tax inheritance at all. However, not taxing inheritance will lead to increasing levels of inequality to the point where the world is owned by a few wealthy families and they control everyone else. This leads to an uprising of the masses in which they kill the ruling families and the entire financial system falls to nothing. We start over until it happens again.

Or the wealthy families give back a large portion with every generation. They keep enough to continue a life of luxury for themselves and continue to invest that given money so that they can do it again with the next generation.

Now I'm not saying that it's that clear cut, but isn't it even worth you're consideration? Maybe it isn't "fair" but is that really what matters?

Like my momma always said "Life isn't fair."

Edit: I missed the second half of Index's post. Sorry for being redundant. But seriously, think about it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:03:29 PM by Dabnasty »

Jrr85

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #151 on: June 30, 2017, 12:49:00 PM »
The purpose of changing the tax system back to the 1960's or 70's brackets is to level the playing field. Income inequality means it is more difficult to move from the median to the 1%. Take the 1980 breakdown of the rich, median, and poor in today's dollars for example:

On the left is the annual income it took to be in this percentile in 1980 in 2017 dollars; The right is 2017 in 2017 dollars:
               1980 / 2017
0.01% -  1.8M / 9.5M
0.1% -    400k  / 1.6M
1% -       197k / 465k
10% -     100k / 135k
20% -     80k / 80k
50% -     52k /  52k
75% -     25k / 25k

Granted, it is possible to move between brackets. A lot of people say "See social mobility" when they see someone going from median income to the top 10%. The problem is going from the median to 1% is much more difficult today than 1980, and it gets even harder to move to the 0.1 or 0.01. Productivity of the workers has increased, but the benefits of the increase have stayed at the top. And again, I'm not talking about fast food workers, I'm talking about professionals - Accountants, Lawyers, Engineers etc.



Society needs to find a way to deal with the inequality. Historically a few things have worked:

1. Increased Progressive Taxes
2. War <-- Historically the 1% are banished/killed
3. Plague  <-- Natural severe population reduction

If you see nothing wrong with the increasing change in the distribution of wealth since 1980 just state that and move on. Know one of the 3 preceding options will happen at some point to correct the imbalance.

In my opinion (and yes I'm in an income bracket that would get a tax hike), paying more than your fair share sucks, but it probably hurts a lot less than 2 or 3.

I really don't get this attitude.  Mobility in the U.S. is just as great or greater on an absolute basis than that in western european countries that everybody wants to emulate, but people want to change our policies just because the U.S. has more rich people.  If a person born to parents making $20k has a 20% chance of making $80k, it seems like that's all that's relevant. 

But regardless, having estate taxes seems like a stupid policy.  If you want to tax estates, it would seem much better for almost any policy preference to tax inheritances.  Let people inherit up to say $5M tax free and anything beyond that get treated as regular income.   If people are just worried about too much wealth concentration, that will accomplish it while the extremely rich to pass their entire estate untaxed, as long as they are willing to devise it to enough people. 

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2017, 01:07:39 PM »
The purpose of changing the tax system back to the 1960's or 70's brackets is to level the playing field. Income inequality means it is more difficult to move from the median to the 1%. Take the 1980 breakdown of the rich, median, and poor in today's dollars for example:

On the left is the annual income it took to be in this percentile in 1980 in 2017 dollars; The right is 2017 in 2017 dollars:
               1980 / 2017
0.01% -  1.8M / 9.5M
0.1% -    400k  / 1.6M
1% -       197k / 465k
10% -     100k / 135k
20% -     80k / 80k
50% -     52k /  52k
75% -     25k / 25k

Granted, it is possible to move between brackets. A lot of people say "See social mobility" when they see someone going from median income to the top 10%. The problem is going from the median to 1% is much more difficult today than 1980, and it gets even harder to move to the 0.1 or 0.01. Productivity of the workers has increased, but the benefits of the increase have stayed at the top. And again, I'm not talking about fast food workers, I'm talking about professionals - Accountants, Lawyers, Engineers etc.

Society needs to find a way to deal with the inequality. Historically a few things have worked:

1. Increased Progressive Taxes
2. War <-- Historically the 1% are banished/killed
3. Plague  <-- Natural severe population reduction

If you see nothing wrong with the increasing change in the distribution of wealth since 1980 just state that and move on. Know one of the 3 preceding options will happen at some point to correct the imbalance.

In my opinion (and yes I'm in an income bracket that would get a tax hike), paying more than your fair share sucks, but it probably hurts a lot less than 2 or 3.

I really don't get this attitude.  Mobility in the U.S. is just as great or greater on an absolute basis than that in western european countries that everybody wants to emulate, but people want to change our policies just because the U.S. has more rich people.  If a person born to parents making $20k has a 20% chance of making $80k, it seems like that's all that's relevant. 

But regardless, having estate taxes seems like a stupid policy.  If you want to tax estates, it would seem much better for almost any policy preference to tax inheritances.  Let people inherit up to say $5M tax free and anything beyond that get treated as regular income.   If people are just worried about too much wealth concentration, that will accomplish it while the extremely rich to pass their entire estate untaxed, as long as they are willing to devise it to enough people.

What? Mobility from the bottom 20% to the the top 20% is much lower in the US than countries with more progressive tax policies!


ncornilsen

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2017, 01:21:22 PM »




So much for male priviliedge.

You guys realize most of the wealth you want government crony's to seize isn't bricks of cash in the basement right? It's functioning businesses employing millions of people. How does the government take that, without forcing people shut down and sell off the business? That is a real, clear detriment to working class, and I beleive, a net negative to society.

Luck12

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2017, 01:24:28 PM »
I really don't get this attitude.  Mobility in the U.S. is just as great or greater on an absolute basis than that in western european countries that everybody wants to emulate, but people want to change our policies just because the U.S. has more rich people.  If a person born to parents making $20k has a 20% chance of making $80k, it seems like that's all that's relevant. 

Oh really?  I guess the dumbass myth that America has more mobility than most other countries just won't die despite all the evidence suggesting otherwise.   Facts just don't matter to you people! 

http://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Pathways-SOTU-2016-Economic-Mobility-3.pdf

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/steven-rattner/it-easier-obtain-american-dream-europe/

Luck12

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #155 on: June 30, 2017, 01:31:44 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though.

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

[MOD NOTE: Attack the argument, not the arguer.  No sweeping generalizations about your opponents.  This is getting tiresome to police all of this stuff.  Thank you.]
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 07:03:19 AM by FrugalToque »

sokoloff

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #156 on: June 30, 2017, 02:01:01 PM »
There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.
Reading farther back on the thread, we have people offended with people who accumulate a singular of million USD and others who are advocating for 80% inheritance taxes. Those are the type of taxes that liquidate functioning businesses upon owner death, destroying economic value and jobs in the process.

The current policy is relatively sane. Some suggestions on this thread do not strike me the same way.

MrMoogle

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #157 on: June 30, 2017, 02:13:37 PM »


The Nordic states don't really compare to the top world economies.  Where's China, Japan, France, Germany and India?
The title is worded weirdly too, I'm not sure what it means.  "Ended up" as in last paycheck?  Also, something like 75-80% of American adults have at one time been in the bottom 20% (I believe I read this in a Thomas Sowell article years ago).  So is that referring to 75% of Americans?  I know it easier to show data like this, but it's simplifying a complex issue. 


EnjoyIt

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #158 on: June 30, 2017, 02:23:38 PM »
Just a thought and a theorized possibility in the US.  Lets just take an example of a toilet paper maker.  Everyone in the US uses toilet paper.  Therefor toilet paper makes have a captive audience.  If the amount of people grow in the United States, there are more asses that need wiping and therefor increased purchase of toilet paper.  That would mean the owner of the toilet paper company would have an increase in income solely based on population growth. 

Could a similar phenomena be happening with some of the richest people?  Could they be just profiting from population growth since the .1% owns so much business?

Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2017, 02:36:34 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 02:40:25 PM by thesvenster »

ncornilsen

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #160 on: June 30, 2017, 02:39:57 PM »
There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.
Reading farther back on the thread, we have people offended with people who accumulate a singular of million USD and others who are advocating for 80% inheritance taxes. Those are the type of taxes that liquidate functioning businesses upon owner death, destroying economic value and jobs in the process.

The current policy is relatively sane. Some suggestions on this thread do not strike me the same way.

Precisely. The leftists are doing a shell game where they PROPOSE confiscatory estate taxes, and when you point out the problems, they point out how the CURRENT taxes make sense, convieniently ignoring that the current ones aren't necessarily the ones at issue. It's how leftists at times can be very factually correct while being absolutely wrong.

[MOD NOTE:  I realize politics is incredibly divisive where you are, but this condescending generalization thing has got to stop.]
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 07:06:07 AM by FrugalToque »

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #161 on: June 30, 2017, 03:13:34 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

How does it work now when there is a $5 million limit on untaxed estates? Straw man #2 of the day. Keep it up conservatives. You're working hard to muddy the water.

Scortius

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #162 on: June 30, 2017, 03:16:08 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

They can get a business loan to cover the costs if they want to buy it, or they can sell shares in the company to cover the tax.  If it's a profitable company, it should be easy to secure a loan and pay it off and/or buy those shares back.  Now, that completely ignores how the government would value the company.  Obviously there would be more consideration given to the whole ordeal.

Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2017, 03:25:46 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

How does it work now when there is a $5 million limit on untaxed estates? Straw man #2 of the day. Keep it up conservatives. You're working hard to muddy the water.

There you are again citing current laws. Look through the posts, there's people suggesting 80% inheritance taxes.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2017, 03:29:05 PM »
Yes you can. If you change a law about taxes on inheritances you can dictate what gets taxed and when it gets taxed. You're just assuming what would happen if we changed the rate only. You know what assuming does?

It's instinctual nature to care about your own progeny ab ove society. That's why a democratic society decides as a whole and the rich aren't allowed to make the rules as they see fit.

yea, yea, yea, makes an ass out of u and ming.  Just another example of how people think it's ok to make racist statements about Asians.

Sorry, they're just such easy targets.

Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2017, 03:29:44 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

They can get a business loan to cover the costs if they want to buy it, or they can sell shares in the company to cover the tax.  If it's a profitable company, it should be easy to secure a loan and pay it off and/or buy those shares back.  Now, that completely ignores how the government would value the company.  Obviously there would be more consideration given to the whole ordeal.

How many shares can they sell if the company is now largely owned by the US government?

Dear god, I'm suddenly sympathizing with Ayn Rand from talking to you people. You really don't care about what people build or create.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2017, 03:30:58 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

How does it work now when there is a $5 million limit on untaxed estates? Straw man #2 of the day. Keep it up conservatives. You're working hard to muddy the water.

There you are again citing current laws. Look through the posts, there's people suggesting 80% inheritance taxes.

You asked how does a $35 million dollar company survive in a higher tax environment. Well how does it survive today when it is valued at 7 times the current tax free estate value? If you don't understand this question then take a critical thinking course! Hint: the answer to your question is related to  the answer to my question. Other hint if that company valued at $35 million today is hit by inheritance tax what do they do about it?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 03:34:46 PM by Bucksandreds »

Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2017, 03:34:01 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

How does it work now when there is a $5 million limit on untaxed estates? Straw man #2 of the day. Keep it up conservatives. You're working hard to muddy the water.

There you are again citing current laws. Look through the posts, there's people suggesting 80% inheritance taxes.

You asked how does a $35 million dollar company survive in a higher tax environment. Well how does it survive today when it is valued at 7 times the current tax free estate value? If you don't understand this question then take a critical thinking course!

Ah, Jerry Brown logic. Because companies are able to make it under the current tax and regulatory regime means that more can be piled on with no consequences.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2017, 03:38:31 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

How does it work now when there is a $5 million limit on untaxed estates? Straw man #2 of the day. Keep it up conservatives. You're working hard to muddy the water.

There you are again citing current laws. Look through the posts, there's people suggesting 80% inheritance taxes.

You asked how does a $35 million dollar company survive in a higher tax environment. Well how does it survive today when it is valued at 7 times the current tax free estate value? If you don't understand this question then take a critical thinking course!

Ah, Jerry Brown logic. Because companies are able to make it under the current tax and regulatory regime means that more can be piled on with no consequences.

What do they do now? In theory they should be hit with a large tax bill on $25-$30 million. Are they? If so how do they survive? You would have been much better served saying the company was valued at $5 million or less but you didn't. This has left you in a position where you could continue the debate or do what you're doing and dodge it. You know that. I know that. So does everyone else here. Continue dodging it if you want. It only makes you look foolish.

Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2017, 03:48:16 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

How does it work now when there is a $5 million limit on untaxed estates? Straw man #2 of the day. Keep it up conservatives. You're working hard to muddy the water.

There you are again citing current laws. Look through the posts, there's people suggesting 80% inheritance taxes.

You asked how does a $35 million dollar company survive in a higher tax environment. Well how does it survive today when it is valued at 7 times the current tax free estate value? If you don't understand this question then take a critical thinking course!

Ah, Jerry Brown logic. Because companies are able to make it under the current tax and regulatory regime means that more can be piled on with no consequences.

What do they do now? In theory they should be hit with a large tax bill on $25-$30 million. Are they? If so how do they survive? You would have been much better served saying the company was valued at $5 million or less but you didn't. This has left you in a position where you could continue the debate or do what you're doing and dodge it. You know that. I know that. So does everyone else here. Continue dodging it if you want. It only makes you look foolish.

What the fuck are you even talking about? You keep moving the goal posts back and forth. One minute you and the other pro-inheritance tax people say that we need massively greater taxes, the next minute you say you're happy with the laws as they stand.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2017, 03:57:07 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

How does it work now when there is a $5 million limit on untaxed estates? Straw man #2 of the day. Keep it up conservatives. You're working hard to muddy the water.

There you are again citing current laws. Look through the posts, there's people suggesting 80% inheritance taxes.

You asked how does a $35 million dollar company survive in a higher tax environment. Well how does it survive today when it is valued at 7 times the current tax free estate value? If you don't understand this question then take a critical thinking course!

Ah, Jerry Brown logic. Because companies are able to make it under the current tax and regulatory regime means that more can be piled on with no consequences.

What do they do now? In theory they should be hit with a large tax bill on $25-$30 million. Are they? If so how do they survive? You would have been much better served saying the company was valued at $5 million or less but you didn't. This has left you in a position where you could continue the debate or do what you're doing and dodge it. You know that. I know that. So does everyone else here. Continue dodging it if you want. It only makes you look foolish.

What the fuck are you even talking about? You keep moving the goal posts back and forth. One minute you and the other pro-inheritance tax people say that we need massively greater taxes, the next minute you say you're happy with the laws as they stand.

Lol. Dodging! Where did I say I'm happy with the laws as they stand? I'm saying that this company, hypothetical or real, would have a similar issue in today's environment. You are demonstrating classic avoidance behavior. You're so defensive now you're swearing at me.

BFGirl

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2017, 03:59:39 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I don't know the current state of the law, but a lot of times family businesses plan for this and transfer minority interests in the business to other family members.  They can then take certain discounts, but the IRS is trying to close this loophole.  It's more complicated than I want to research and explain right now, but here is a link for those who are interested:  http://www.claconnect.com/resources/articles/gift-and-estate-tax-discounts-likely-to-shrink-for-closely-held-businesses

mm1970

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2017, 04:04:04 PM »
Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
Sweet, we've discovered the meaning of life! Good game everybody, we can all go home now.

Because people for all of history struggled and lived and built civilizations just for fun... not to leave something to their children.

No one is claiming that there should be no inheritance to pass. Virtually all would prefer a reasonable (up for debate) amount that could be passed on completely tax free. You just used a classic straw man.

No, I'm countering snark with snark. But what all of you pro-inheritance tax people are really saying, and it's a bizarre thing to read on MMM forum, is that we are all really just borrowing our wealth from the government until we die.
No.  My wealth is mine.  MINE.

It is not, however, my kids'.  When/if they get an influx of money, it may be taxed.

Scortius

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2017, 04:06:12 PM »
What will happen to the family farm?  For example a farm valued at $10M that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Oh the "what will happen to all those family farms" bullshit arguement.  Gotta give you economic conservatives credit for marketing and fooling the public though. 

There's currently (and has been for last 6-7 years) an exemption of $5M+ and 35-40% tax on amounts greater than $5M, hardly somethng that would kill a family farm.  Not to mention this affects very few farms.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens to my boss' $35million company when he dies. In the ideal world of higher inheritance taxes,  does a bureaucrat get appointed to run it? Or does the family get keep it while paying massive loans to the federal government?

They can get a business loan to cover the costs if they want to buy it, or they can sell shares in the company to cover the tax.  If it's a profitable company, it should be easy to secure a loan and pay it off and/or buy those shares back.  Now, that completely ignores how the government would value the company.  Obviously there would be more consideration given to the whole ordeal.

How many shares can they sell if the company is now largely owned by the US government?

Dear god, I'm suddenly sympathizing with Ayn Rand from talking to you people. You really don't care about what people build or create.

If, in your example, it's largely owned by the US government, they don't have to sell any shares, they already covered their tax liability.  If, in this extreme scenario, they want to cover their tax liability while maintaining ownership and control of the company, they can liquidate some of the value of the company (that somehow has been assessed at $35 million) by selling shares of the company, or taking out a business loan, thus covering their tax liability in cash, in which case the government owns absolutely zero percent of the company.

Now once again, this is an extreme contrived example in a scenario where tax rates would be exceptionally high, but I imagine this is how it would work and thus tried to answer your question.

Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2017, 04:09:01 PM »
Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
Sweet, we've discovered the meaning of life! Good game everybody, we can all go home now.

Because people for all of history struggled and lived and built civilizations just for fun... not to leave something to their children.

No one is claiming that there should be no inheritance to pass. Virtually all would prefer a reasonable (up for debate) amount that could be passed on completely tax free. You just used a classic straw man.

No, I'm countering snark with snark. But what all of you pro-inheritance tax people are really saying, and it's a bizarre thing to read on MMM forum, is that we are all really just borrowing our wealth from the government until we die.
No.  My wealth is mine.  MINE.

It is not, however, my kids'.  When/if they get an influx of money, it may be taxed.

Classic Marxism, eliminating or severely limiting inheritances is a way to make families rely less on each other.

Scortius

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2017, 04:14:47 PM »
Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
Sweet, we've discovered the meaning of life! Good game everybody, we can all go home now.

Because people for all of history struggled and lived and built civilizations just for fun... not to leave something to their children.

No one is claiming that there should be no inheritance to pass. Virtually all would prefer a reasonable (up for debate) amount that could be passed on completely tax free. You just used a classic straw man.

No, I'm countering snark with snark. But what all of you pro-inheritance tax people are really saying, and it's a bizarre thing to read on MMM forum, is that we are all really just borrowing our wealth from the government until we die.
No.  My wealth is mine.  MINE.

It is not, however, my kids'.  When/if they get an influx of money, it may be taxed.

Classic Marxism, eliminating or severely limiting inheritances is a way to make families rely less on each other.

I don't think anyone is advocating for eliminating or taxing inheritances in the seven-figure or less category.  I think the discussion starts around the 8 figure mark, and even there only considers percentage tax, not a complete elimination.  Pretty much anyone can set their kids up for life with these amounts before any taxes come into play.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #176 on: June 30, 2017, 04:19:12 PM »
Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
Sweet, we've discovered the meaning of life! Good game everybody, we can all go home now.

Because people for all of history struggled and lived and built civilizations just for fun... not to leave something to their children.

No one is claiming that there should be no inheritance to pass. Virtually all would prefer a reasonable (up for debate) amount that could be passed on completely tax free. You just used a classic straw man.

No, I'm countering snark with snark. But what all of you pro-inheritance tax people are really saying, and it's a bizarre thing to read on MMM forum, is that we are all really just borrowing our wealth from the government until we die.
No.  My wealth is mine.  MINE.

It is not, however, my kids'.  When/if they get an influx of money, it may be taxed.

Classic Marxism, eliminating or severely limiting inheritances is a way to make families rely less on each other.

I don't think anyone is advocating for eliminating or taxing inheritances in the seven-figure or less category.  I think the discussion starts around the 8 figure mark, and even there only considers percentage tax, not a complete elimination.  Pretty much anyone can set their kids up for life with these amounts before any taxes come into play.

Say it was 80% tax. A person with $1 billion could leave $200 million to their heirs. No legitimate argument can be made by anyone for real world Marxism/communism. Straw man arguments by the right are easier than legitimate debate.

Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #177 on: June 30, 2017, 04:22:54 PM »
Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
Sweet, we've discovered the meaning of life! Good game everybody, we can all go home now.

Because people for all of history struggled and lived and built civilizations just for fun... not to leave something to their children.

No one is claiming that there should be no inheritance to pass. Virtually all would prefer a reasonable (up for debate) amount that could be passed on completely tax free. You just used a classic straw man.

No, I'm countering snark with snark. But what all of you pro-inheritance tax people are really saying, and it's a bizarre thing to read on MMM forum, is that we are all really just borrowing our wealth from the government until we die.
No.  My wealth is mine.  MINE.

It is not, however, my kids'.  When/if they get an influx of money, it may be taxed.

Classic Marxism, eliminating or severely limiting inheritances is a way to make families rely less on each other.

I don't think anyone is advocating for eliminating or taxing inheritances in the seven-figure or less category.  I think the discussion starts around the 8 figure mark, and even there only considers percentage tax, not a complete elimination.  Pretty much anyone can set their kids up for life with these amounts before any taxes come into play.

Say it was 80% tax. A person with $1 billion could leave $200 million to their heirs. No legitimate argument can be made by anyone for real world Marxism/communism. Straw man arguments by the right are easier than legitimate debate.

Going back through Bucksandreds' comments, he/she/xir is not even a serious person. This one fantasy of his/her/xe's made me lol

"The conservatives will drive us to a French Revolution style event here and will be kneeling at the guillotine still blaming it all on the Welfare queens."

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #178 on: June 30, 2017, 04:39:26 PM »
Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
Sweet, we've discovered the meaning of life! Good game everybody, we can all go home now.

Because people for all of history struggled and lived and built civilizations just for fun... not to leave something to their children.

No one is claiming that there should be no inheritance to pass. Virtually all would prefer a reasonable (up for debate) amount that could be passed on completely tax free. You just used a classic straw man.

No, I'm countering snark with snark. But what all of you pro-inheritance tax people are really saying, and it's a bizarre thing to read on MMM forum, is that we are all really just borrowing our wealth from the government until we die.
No.  My wealth is mine.  MINE.

It is not, however, my kids'.  When/if they get an influx of money, it may be taxed.

Classic Marxism, eliminating or severely limiting inheritances is a way to make families rely less on each other.

I don't think anyone is advocating for eliminating or taxing inheritances in the seven-figure or less category.  I think the discussion starts around the 8 figure mark, and even there only considers percentage tax, not a complete elimination.  Pretty much anyone can set their kids up for life with these amounts before any taxes come into play.

Say it was 80% tax. A person with $1 billion could leave $200 million to their heirs. No legitimate argument can be made by anyone for real world Marxism/communism. Straw man arguments by the right are easier than legitimate debate.

Going back through Bucksandreds' comments, he/she/xir is not even a serious person. This one fantasy of his/her/xe's made me lol

"The conservatives will drive us to a French Revolution style event here and will be kneeling at the guillotine still blaming it all on the Welfare queens."

I like your tenacity! I see a lot of myself in you. That was a serious anecdote. Let them eat food stamps!

Edited to thank you for teaching me about xir/xe. I just googled it. I honestly have never heard that until now.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 04:44:34 PM by Bucksandreds »

Alim Nassor

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #179 on: June 30, 2017, 05:30:50 PM »
I've never understood the mindset that thinks the government is more entitled to an estate than the heirs are.  SMH.

I always find it a bit difficult to understand the mindset that the heirs are entitled to anything at all.

I see.  So, government trumps family?  That doesn't sound like something anyone who desires a free society would say.

Alim Nassor

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #180 on: June 30, 2017, 05:32:52 PM »
I've never understood the mindset that thinks the government is more entitled to an estate than the heirs are.  SMH.

I always find it a bit difficult to understand the mindset that the heirs are entitled to anything at all.

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would think the government should get the money
someone worked and already paid taxes on. The owner of the money should have the right to say where it goes.
Because we tax money when it changes hands.  Almost always.
The owner earned the money, the recipient did not, thus it gets taxed.

Alright Komrade Alim Nassor.

Maybe I'd understand this better if we talked about the amount of wealth that gets hugely taxed. If I have a nice muscle car, do I get to leave that to my grandson or does that get sold at a government auction?

Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

Don't call me Komrade.  Re-read the thread and attribute the quotes to the proper people,.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #181 on: June 30, 2017, 05:37:57 PM »
Here's why I'm against inheritance taxes: it destroys the idea of a family building fortunes over generations, and fundamentally that's what life is all about. As the Greek proverb goes, "A country grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
Sweet, we've discovered the meaning of life! Good game everybody, we can all go home now.

Because people for all of history struggled and lived and built civilizations just for fun... not to leave something to their children.

No one is claiming that there should be no inheritance to pass. Virtually all would prefer a reasonable (up for debate) amount that could be passed on completely tax free. You just used a classic straw man.

No, I'm countering snark with snark. But what all of you pro-inheritance tax people are really saying, and it's a bizarre thing to read on MMM forum, is that we are all really just borrowing our wealth from the government until we die.
No.  My wealth is mine.  MINE.

It is not, however, my kids'.  When/if they get an influx of money, it may be taxed.

Classic Marxism, eliminating or severely limiting inheritances is a way to make families rely less on each other.

I don't think anyone is advocating for eliminating or taxing inheritances in the seven-figure or less category.  I think the discussion starts around the 8 figure mark, and even there only considers percentage tax, not a complete elimination.  Pretty much anyone can set their kids up for life with these amounts before any taxes come into play.

Why 8 figure mark? Is it because you will never have 8 figures so it seams like a high enough number for you?
Why not at $14k? Treat everyone fairly?

Papa bear

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #182 on: June 30, 2017, 06:14:37 PM »
Wow thread derailed!!!  I'll comment to add to the crazy...

Here's some information for those who consider themselves more conservative and want more of a classic Adam Smith capitalism.  (See article below) Personally, I am in favor of some form of inheritance tax, the debate is for how much.  I don't see anything wrong with the current limits, just index them to inflation and move on.  The point of some taxes is to disincentive some behavior. And dynastic wealth is something our country's founders vehemently hated (think royal aristocracy that was so prevalent). So disincentive it through taxes. Give most away or it ends up in "evil" government coffers.   Don't be a Tory.

For the record, in the argument for the "morality" of taxes, I have argued before that taxes on conditional transactions is reasonable.  Condition: death.  Transaction: transfer of wealth. Tax it.  I will argue against wealth taxes, in particular real property taxes, the only real wealth tax in the US today.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax_and_founding_fathers

If there was one thing the Revolutionary generation agreed on — and those guys who dress up like them at Tea Party conventions most definitely do not — it was the incompatibility of democracy and inherited wealth.

With Thomas Jefferson taking the lead in the Virginia legislature in 1777, every Revolutionary state government abolished the laws of primogeniture and entail that had served to perpetuate the concentration of inherited property. Jefferson cited Adam Smith, the hero of free market capitalists everywhere, as the source of his conviction that (as Smith wrote, and Jefferson closely echoed in his own words), "A power to dispose of estates for ever is manifestly absurd. The earth and the fulness of it belongs to every generation, and the preceding one can have no right to bind it up from posterity. Such extension of property is quite unnatural." Smith said: "There is no point more difficult to account for than the right we conceive men to have to dispose of their goods after death."

The states left no doubt that in taking this step they were giving expression to a basic and widely shared philosophical belief that equality of citizenship was impossible in a nation where inequality of wealth remained the rule. North Carolina's 1784 statute explained that by keeping large estates together for succeeding generations, the old system had served "only to raise the wealth and importance of particular families and individuals, giving them an unequal and undue influence in a republic" and promoting "contention and injustice." Abolishing aristocratic forms of inheritance would by contrast "tend to promote that equality of property which is of the spirit and principle of a genuine republic."

Others wanted to go much further; Thomas Paine, like Smith and Jefferson, made much of the idea that landed property itself was an affront to the natural right of each generation to the usufruct of the earth, and proposed a "ground rent" — in fact an inheritance tax — on property at the time it is conveyed at death, with the money so collected to be distributed to all citizens at age 21, "as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property."

Even stalwart members of the latter-day Republican Party, the representatives of business and inherited wealth, often emphatically embraced these tenets of economic equality in a democracy. I've mentioned Herbert Hoover's disdain for the "idle rich" and his strong support for breaking up large fortunes. Theodore Roosevelt, who was the first president to propose a steeply graduated tax on inheritances, was another: he declared that the transmission of large wealth to young men "does not do them any real service and is of great and genuine detriment to the community at large.''



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #183 on: June 30, 2017, 06:37:58 PM »
^^^^

You're preaching to the choir. The conservatives won't even consider what you're saying. They're absolute f&()ing nut bags.


[MOD NOTE: Forum Rule #1]
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:52:09 AM by FrugalToque »

Alim Nassor

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #184 on: June 30, 2017, 06:57:08 PM »
^^^^

You're preaching to the choir. The conservatives won't even consider what you're saying. They're absolute f&()ing nut bags.

If disagreeing with you makes me a nut bag,  then I'm proud to be a giant economy size one.   Most adults have acquired the ability to have open discourse without acting like a 6 year old.   You should try it.


[MOD NOTE: Enough already.  Let's use our manners.]
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:53:07 AM by FrugalToque »

sokoloff

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #185 on: June 30, 2017, 08:17:31 PM »
You're preaching to the choir. The conservatives won't even consider what you're saying. They're absolute f&()ing nut bags.
If one were to read this thread on balance, I'm thinking those repeatedly lobbing ad hominem attacks would be more liable to be so labelled.

index

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #186 on: June 30, 2017, 10:06:48 PM »
The general consensus of the studies I have seen show the US is trending toward less income equality and less social mobility. The historical record shows this inequality is eventually corrected through tax policy, war and confiscation, or an order of magnitude population reduction.

The economic boom of the past 37 years and 2.5x expansion in the economy has only benefited  the incomes of the to 10%. We can state the poor have cars, iPhones, and flat screen TVs all day. Luxury items have gotten more affordable, but this doesn't change the fact that there is 2.5x the gdp today in real terms as  in 1980 but none of those dollars have gone to the bottom 90%. Engineers and accountants are making the same real income today as they did in 1980. 

If these facts are wrong please show some data that disputes this. Don't make up a fact like someone born to parents making 20k has a 20% chance if making 80k, the real number is 6-7% and is easy to verify.

I think the left and right can agree there is a wealth Gap. That it has grown since 1980. It is continuing to grow. We can see historically how a growing wealth Gap has ended. We know the founding fathers view of stratified wealth. The question is can anything be done?

Some on here have suggested increasing income taxes and more tax brackets separating the 94% from the 99, and 99.99%. Others have suggested a steep wealth tax. Several posters are opposed to increasing taxes in any way. So what do you propose? The speed of stratification over the past 37 years, the growth in public debt, and movements like occupy wall street and the performance of a candidate like Bernie Sanders makes me think we are not going to stay the course for another 37 years.

We can have a civil discussion about what would work between those if you in the right and left in this board and in the country as a whole and have a compromise where everyone gives in to something. The alternative is to watch the trainwreck happen which may lead to war/confiscation which could hurt those of us on this board planning on saving 6 figure staches. This could actually happen in it lifetimes and it scares the shit out if me. I am genuinely interested in what it society could do to avert this scenario.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #187 on: July 01, 2017, 05:32:38 AM »
If one were to read this thread on balance, I'm thinking those repeatedly lobbing ad hominem attacks would be more liable to be so labelled.

+1

Please let's knock off the juvenile insults and discuss like adults.  There's some good thoughts in this thread from differing viewpoints.  I've learned a bit and my own view is more educated and shaped from the discussion. 

Attacks only weaken whatever position one is trying to support.  The conservatives this or the liberals that...  Straw man...  it's all disgusting.  It feels like divisive political ads all over again.

By responding to your ridiculously fringe/ uninformed views with complete civility I would be giving some merit to your positions. Those positions are comple f$()ing nutjob positions that crumble in the face of any logical/scientific scrutiny.  The right in this country has gone off the deep end. It has learned nothing from history, it cares not for fact or scientific proof. It cares only about promoting an ideology of every man for themselves. The truth is civilizations were built because, to some degree, we have to be all in this together.

sokoloff

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #188 on: July 01, 2017, 08:40:02 AM »
The economic boom of the past 37 years and 2.5x expansion in the economy has only benefited  the incomes of the to 10%. We can state the poor have cars, iPhones, and flat screen TVs all day. Luxury items have gotten more affordable, but this doesn't change the fact that there is 2.5x the gdp today in real terms as  in 1980 but none of those dollars have gone to the bottom 90%. Engineers and accountants are making the same real income today as they did in 1980. 

If these facts are wrong please show some data that disputes this.
I do not dispute the GDP growth numbers, but from here and here, I think it's more relevant to talk about the per-capita figure, which is 1.6x.

Looking for engineering salaries over time, I found this, whereby it seems like fresh college grads in chemical and mechanical engineering are earning 1.1x what they did in 1980 (in inflation adjusted terms) and electrical engineers are earning 1.2x what they did in 1980. These are fresh college grads, where there's no particular reason to think that they're particularly more skilled or "useful" to industry than they were 37 years ago.

Looking across the total population, I do not see evidence of zero real income growth there either. From analysis of 2015 Census Bureau report, it shows real income growth across all quintiles. (Note that this is from 1967 to 2015, because that's the data they used, and I didn't go track back to see if it specifically held in 1980 to 2015 timeframe, though from the graph, it is visually clear that it has done so.)





I do agree that things are becoming more uneven, but I do not see evidence to support "none of those dollars have gone to the bottom 90%". In fact, I see strong evidence above that the bottom 90% have also benefited during this time, beyond simply having much more affordable luxuries, they have increased income in real (inflation adjusted) dollars.

sokoloff

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #189 on: July 01, 2017, 08:46:30 AM »
By responding to your ridiculously fringe/ uninformed views with complete civility I would be giving some merit to your positions.
You should be fairly confident that you aren't running any risk of responding with complete civility.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2017, 12:31:22 PM »
The general consensus of the studies I have seen show the US is trending toward less income equality and less social mobility. The historical record shows this inequality is eventually corrected through tax policy, war and confiscation, or an order of magnitude population reduction.

The economic boom of the past 37 years and 2.5x expansion in the economy has only benefited  the incomes of the to 10%. We can state the poor have cars, iPhones, and flat screen TVs all day. Luxury items have gotten more affordable, but this doesn't change the fact that there is 2.5x the gdp today in real terms as  in 1980 but none of those dollars have gone to the bottom 90%. Engineers and accountants are making the same real income today as they did in 1980. 

If these facts are wrong please show some data that disputes this. Don't make up a fact like someone born to parents making 20k has a 20% chance if making 80k, the real number is 6-7% and is easy to verify.

I think the left and right can agree there is a wealth Gap. That it has grown since 1980. It is continuing to grow. We can see historically how a growing wealth Gap has ended. We know the founding fathers view of stratified wealth. The question is can anything be done?

Some on here have suggested increasing income taxes and more tax brackets separating the 94% from the 99, and 99.99%. Others have suggested a steep wealth tax. Several posters are opposed to increasing taxes in any way. So what do you propose? The speed of stratification over the past 37 years, the growth in public debt, and movements like occupy wall street and the performance of a candidate like Bernie Sanders makes me think we are not going to stay the course for another 37 years.

We can have a civil discussion about what would work between those if you in the right and left in this board and in the country as a whole and have a compromise where everyone gives in to something. The alternative is to watch the trainwreck happen which may lead to war/confiscation which could hurt those of us on this board planning on saving 6 figure staches. This could actually happen in it lifetimes and it scares the shit out if me. I am genuinely interested in what it society could do to avert this scenario.


I don't support any taxation rooted in envy. I can't possibly see how that's good policy to begin with, and I don't think it is even remotely ethical. I don't think you can reasonably tax an estate anymore than you can reasonably tax a Christmas present.

Most arguments that things haven't gotten better in the last 30-40 years fall into the "lying with stats" argument. If you look at sokoloff's graph, you'll see that household incomes are rising for all quintiles. You should also factor in the value of fringe benefits into those numbers and any cash or in-kind, especially elderly folks.. Also, while all groups are adjusted for "inflation," inflation rates aren't really consistent across households. Lower income households have benefited massively from things like improved automobiles and Wal-Mart shoveling massive amounts of cheap crap. Higher-income households out-bidding each other for positional goods aren't relevant to lower-income households.

You can see the top quintile is benefiting at a pretty good clip. It is not hard to get into the top income quintile. It's a household income of $100,000. I work a basic entry-level corporate level job. If I married one of my coworkers, we would already be in the top quintile. A plumber working overtime alongside a pharmacy technician would be very close to that level.

Those households don't "deserve" to be slapped with massive tax increases. We're also looking at massive tax increases baked into the cake anyways. I just got my property tax bill, and Illinois has released templates for the expected tax increase. In total, my household tax to the state will be increasing 40% this year, and services will be cut, and we are STILL no where close to solving these colossal pension short-falls.

That's not going into the massive federal tax increases that are already baked into the cake.

Personally I think most center-left people are as much in la-la land as the center-right people. I know many young couples that are making six figures (and therefore are in the top 20% of US households) that voted for Bernie Sanders because they think Bernie is actually going to make things better for them, rather than massively raising their taxes (even more than they already will be). These households are much better off than their equiveleants 20-30 years. That's when my parents and in-laws got married. All drove cars that were falling apart, got married without rings, and skipped Honeymoons, because they just didn't have money....all things my Bernie Sanders-Yuppie couples consider utterly ordinary, take for granted, and all enjoy.

This is roughly the same as the Medicaid recipient voting for Trump to "Make America Great Again" and then having his/her Medicaid taken away.

I've shared the anecdote before, but my Wife used to be a big liberal and was there at Obama's inauguration, right up until she had to actually start working with low-income populations in the health care sector every day, and learning her Democratic compatriots consider her "the rich."


But, hey, no point in taking things personally! This is just shooting the breeze. :)

sokoloff

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #191 on: July 01, 2017, 12:58:38 PM »
I don't support any taxation rooted in envy. I can't possibly see how that's good policy to begin with, and I don't think it is even remotely ethical. I don't think you can reasonably tax an estate anymore than you can reasonably tax a Christmas present.
I agree with almost everything you said in your well-written post. This part is the only part I'll choose to comment on.

If you take an alternative view that society owns everything and you are simply borrowing from society those things that you do have, then the only reason not to tax the Christmas gift is one of practicality ('how can we be assured that we can tax ALL Christmas gifts?'). In that regard, taxing some things might be impractical (and therefore skipped), but taxing estates is not something that happens so frequently that it would be overwhelming to do.

“I rob banks because that’s where the money is.”

I don't have a serious problem with the current estate taxation policies (even though under many cFIREsim scenarios, we will end up subject to an estate tax as I understand the current law). I don't want someone winning at the game of life in 2017 to be controlling a significantly outsized portion of the Earth in 2117. I do, however, want to reward the frugal savers who wish to pass along some wealth to their family (or other recipients of their choosing), just as I'd want the frugal to be able to give a Christmas gift. There are valid public and private interests to allow some wealth to be passed along (no one wants to live in a world where your money literally "expires") and valid interests to restrict the scope of that transfer on the high end.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #192 on: July 01, 2017, 01:48:50 PM »
There are an unfortunate group of liberal left who love freedom of speech as long as it is their speech.  They will curse, insult, and even assault those they disagree with and not allow them to practice freedom of speech.  Their biggest weapon are insults in the caliber of "racist," "uneducated," "misogamist," and "immoral."

The reality is that just because some people's views differ does not mean they are any of those above terms. Whenever we use slander to have a discussion, that discussion instantly falls apart and no one benefits.

scottish

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #193 on: July 01, 2017, 02:16:52 PM »
Freedom of speech means that your government won't arrest you for what you say.   It doesn't mean other people must listen politely.

Of course it also doesn't mean that they can beat you with sticks if they don't like what you're saying.

The confrontations I've read about have been on university campuses.    Universities are supposed to be centers of learning.    I think this is a good opportunity for students to learn about critical thinking.    Those who do not respect the law while doing so need to face the consequences whether they are speaker or listener.

There's no shortage of rhetoric and ad hominem attacks on either side.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 02:19:18 PM by scottish »

scottish

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #194 on: July 01, 2017, 02:23:05 PM »
But I meant to write about inequality.

Extreme inequality is bad because it's bad for society.    The very wealthy have great control over other people.   They can influence elections to their benefit.   They can undertake large scale monopolistic strategies.   And so on.

Is there some other way to reduce extreme inequality other than extreme taxation?    and is taxation sufficient on it's own?

And what about huge corporations like Google and Twitter?      Suppose Twitter were to ban President Trump for violating their terms of use (which has has done).   would this be an acceptable impact on society in the US?

EnjoyIt

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #195 on: July 01, 2017, 03:53:54 PM »
But I meant to write about inequality.

Extreme inequality is bad because it's bad for society.    The very wealthy have great control over other people.   They can influence elections to their benefit.   They can undertake large scale monopolistic strategies.   And so on.

Is there some other way to reduce extreme inequality other than extreme taxation?    and is taxation sufficient on it's own?

And what about huge corporations like Google and Twitter?      Suppose Twitter were to ban President Trump for violating their terms of use (which has has done).   would this be an acceptable impact on society in the US?

I can be wrong, but I think what failed is previous societies was not that the rich where rich, but that the poor were hungry. The Romans knew what they were doing.  The people were poor, kinda hungry so they distracted them with entertainment, but eventually the people were hungry and the empire fell.  Same for the French revolution.  It occurred because the people were starving.  The thing about America is that no one is starving, people have shelter, people have medical care.  People even have some luxuries in their life as well as distraction from creating upheaval via the media, Twitter, Facebook and such.  I just don't see the pitchforks coming in this scenario.

The rich controlling our politics is completely true.  The other side of the coin can occur though. If the government has enough dependents on it, eventually those dependent overshadow the non dependent population and are able to vote in laws that keep helping themselves.  It is no different that the politician who votes themselves a wage increase. So there must be some balance between the two.  A line which is attributed to Benjamin Franklin but may belong to someone else, "When people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."  This goes to both sides, the filthy rich and the dependent.

scottish

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #196 on: July 01, 2017, 05:56:56 PM »
But I meant to write about inequality.

Extreme inequality is bad because it's bad for society.    The very wealthy have great control over other people.   They can influence elections to their benefit.   They can undertake large scale monopolistic strategies.   And so on.

Is there some other way to reduce extreme inequality other than extreme taxation?    and is taxation sufficient on it's own?

And what about huge corporations like Google and Twitter?      Suppose Twitter were to ban President Trump for violating their terms of use (which has has done).   would this be an acceptable impact on society in the US?

I can be wrong, but I think what failed is previous societies was not that the rich where rich, but that the poor were hungry. The Romans knew what they were doing.  The people were poor, kinda hungry so they distracted them with entertainment, but eventually the people were hungry and the empire fell.  Same for the French revolution.  It occurred because the people were starving.  The thing about America is that no one is starving, people have shelter, people have medical care.  People even have some luxuries in their life as well as distraction from creating upheaval via the media, Twitter, Facebook and such.  I just don't see the pitchforks coming in this scenario.

The rich controlling our politics is completely true.  The other side of the coin can occur though. If the government has enough dependents on it, eventually those dependent overshadow the non dependent population and are able to vote in laws that keep helping themselves.  It is no different that the politician who votes themselves a wage increase. So there must be some balance between the two.  A line which is attributed to Benjamin Franklin but may belong to someone else, "When people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."  This goes to both sides, the filthy rich and the dependent.

I was going to challenge you to find an example of this, when I remembered that in Ontario we have a bit of a problem with the affordability of our public sector unions.   Our premier (equivalent to a governor) recently agreed to a substantial wage increase over 4 years.   "Now that the budget is balanced" she said, "we can afford to spend some money."    First, we can afford to spend money when the debt has reached nominal zero levels, not the deficit.   Second, there's an election coming up next year and the public service unions are big supporters.

FrugalToque

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Re: Inequality: the long view
« Reply #197 on: July 02, 2017, 07:11:39 AM »
This has gone on long enough and is generating way too much non-constructive commentary and way too many moderation requests.

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