Author Topic: FIRE and Virtue  (Read 6081 times)

arebelspy

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FIRE and Virtue
« on: April 15, 2014, 04:36:42 PM »
There's an old Greek proverb that, roughly translated, says: "First secure an independent income, then practice virtue."

How do you interpret this saying, and what do you think of it?
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jpo

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 05:31:55 PM »
Sounds like something Gordon Gekko might say.

thepokercab

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 05:39:47 PM »
I interpret it as meaning that its hard to be virtuous when you are dependent on an income. Not impossible of course, but made more difficult by being dependent on an outside income.  I think the Greeks recognized, what is still true today, that people who are dependent on an income source, other than their own, are more susceptible to manipulation (i.e. doing things that may not be virtuous because you need the income) or being prevented from doing something virtuous because it would threaten your source of income. 

When you are financially independent, you are free from those types of outside manipulations where the carrot is often times money or an income. You can be truly virtuous, even in the face of adversity, because your livelihood isn't threatened by someone pulling the plug on your income.  I think one type of example is, for instance, having a Supreme Court where there is a life-time appointment. The theory behind it, at least, is that when you don't have to fear losing your job (or your income) you can be truly non-biased and independent. I put an emphasis on theory here of course..     

I feel like I see similar sentiments here on the forums, as people start to get closer to FI.  People seem to be much more likely to speak their mind at work, argue for what they think is the right thing to do, and simply walk away from their income if need be.   

Recon

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 08:29:27 PM »
"Get money, fuck bitches."

brewer12345

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2014, 08:35:48 PM »
"Get money, fuck bitches."

Probably better than the ancient Greek ideal of spending time in public baths with unattached youths.

soccerluvof4

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2014, 10:35:04 AM »
why cant you practice virtues without first securing an independent income? I think its putting to much emphasis on money money money!

arebelspy

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2014, 10:42:35 AM »
why cant you practice virtues without first securing an independent income? I think its putting to much emphasis on money money money!

Can you?  That's the point of the discussion of this thread.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you.  I started this thread to get people's thoughts.

So by all means, please.. make your case.  :)
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soccerluvof4

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2014, 10:55:04 AM »
why cant you practice virtues without first securing an independent income? I think its putting to much emphasis on money money money!

Can you?  That's the point of the discussion of this thread.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you.  I started this thread to get people's thoughts.

So by all means, please.. make your case.  :)


No, I will throw it back on you. You convince me why a person cant have morally good behavior or characteristics before having a secure independent income. I think my question to you explains pretty much how i feel the context of the proverb is! So i have stated my case. What say you!? :-)

[Mod Edit: Quote Tags fixed.]
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:09:52 AM by arebelspy »

GuitarStv

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2014, 11:03:12 AM »
I kinda take an Ayn Randian approach to the idea.  Giving too much too early can leave you in the same sorry financial state as those who are in need of financial aid.  Amassing enough wealth to provide for yourself frees up your time and energy to spend more in helping those less fortunate, and you do so without much chance of joining their ranks.

arebelspy

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2014, 11:13:15 AM »
No, I will throw it back on you. You convince me why a person cant have morally good behavior or characteristics before having a secure independent income. I think my question to you explains pretty much how i feel the context of the proverb is! So i have stated my case. What say you!? :-)

I'm not defending one point of view or another, I'm interested in hearing what other people think. 

I haven't said that a person can, or can't, have morally praiseworthy behavior before or after having an independent income.

In fact, I don't even interpret it the same way as you apparently did.  Thus the first part of my question in the OP, which you indirectly answered, perhaps unwittingly.  That's actually the more interesting thing to me, the interpretation, rather than one's thoughts on it.

Pokercab's post, for example, had some good thoughts.

I still don't know what your "case" is, though you say you have stated it.

I may need it a little less veiled, sorry.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

soccerluvof4

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2014, 11:25:49 AM »
I kinda take an Ayn Randian approach to the idea.  Giving too much too early can leave you in the same sorry financial state as those who are in need of financial aid.  Amassing enough wealth to provide for yourself frees up your time and energy to spend more in helping those less fortunate, and you do so without much chance of joining their ranks.



I would share in the view that what is meant by the Proverb is what his ^ definition of it is here. My personal view of it however would be slightly different in that why not give along the way to mankind instead of waiting till you are without Income worry.? I dont know how else to put it for you. Sorry! I find giving when I can what I can is to be the way I prefer.  So from that stand point the proverb by my interpretation is more an after thought.  Thats all I can say!

soccerluvof4

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2014, 11:27:54 AM »
I kinda take an Ayn Randian approach to the idea.  Giving too much too early can leave you in the same sorry financial state as those who are in need of financial aid.  Amassing enough wealth to provide for yourself frees up your time and energy to spend more in helping those less fortunate, and you do so without much chance of joining their ranks.



I would share in the view that what is meant by the Proverb is what his ^ definition of it is here. My personal view of it however would be slightly different in that why not give along the way to mankind instead of waiting till you are without Income worry.? I dont know how else to put it for you. Sorry! I find giving when I can what I can is to be the way I prefer.  So from that stand point the proverb by my interpretation is more an after thought.  Thats all I can say!




If you interpret it differently, I would enjoy your interpretation though.

AJ

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2014, 11:51:36 AM »
This proverb reminds me of the somewhat strained dynamic that exists between myself and a handful of my conservative male friends:

Straight out of high school, it seemed common for young Christian men to feel "called" to be pastors. They went straight from HS graduation to Bible college, and four years later expected to become pastors of their own congregations at the ripe old age of 22 (or if not head pastors, youth pastors as a stepping stone).

Genuine as they may have been, it felt to me like these individuals were in some way trying to avoid regular "lowly" labor, and instead wanted to be paid for something they enjoyed doing - not unlike starving artists. I thought (and still think) that it would be more optimal to learn a trade, work and save for 20 years while gaining life experience, then go into the clergy in mid-life. That way they wouldn't have to rely on the kindness of strangers to fund all their good deeds (not to mention being less wet behind the ears).

I love these friends dearly, but I still can't help feeling that their lives (and the lives of their congregants) would have been better off had they heeded this proverb and earned their keep before giving their lives fully over to "virtue".

DoubleDown

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2014, 01:54:18 PM »
My guess is the term "virtue" in this proverb has a different meaning than we're used to. Rather than meaning "goodness", I imagine it has a meaning closer to "higher pursuits." Then the proverb is not objectionable at all, and is 100% aligned with an MMM philosophy. We would say it pedantically as, "First become financially independent, then you can take on higher (virtuous) pursuits of your own interest without the concern of how to pay your rent." I don't know how this proverb reads in ancient Greek, but it makes sense to me that the translation of the term "virtue" may be imperfect.

Elaine

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2014, 02:00:41 PM »
My guess is the term "virtue" in this proverb has a different meaning than we're used to. Rather than meaning "goodness", I imagine it has a meaning closer to "higher pursuits." Then the proverb is not objectionable at all, and is 100% aligned with an MMM philosophy. We would say it pedantically as, "First become financially independent, then you can take on higher (virtuous) pursuits of your own interest without the concern of how to pay your rent." I don't know how this proverb reads in ancient Greek, but it makes sense to me that the translation of the term "virtue" may be imperfect.

+1

arebelspy

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2014, 02:05:15 PM »
Virtue is nearly synonymous with "excellence" in ancient Greece.

Arete, if you're familiar with the term.

EDIT: Wikipedia Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete - That may be helpful to read, and then evaluate the quote.  Thanks for pointing that out DD.
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Elaine

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2014, 02:15:43 PM »
Virtue is nearly synonymous with "excellence" in ancient Greece.

Arete, if you're familiar with the term.

EDIT: Wikipedia Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete - That may be helpful to read, and then evaluate the quote.  Thanks for pointing that out DD.

Right, but part of the concept of this "type" of goodness is that it could be broadly applied (to objects as well as people) and did not have a single definition or intrinsic value attached to it. I think the modern reader would evaluate the original proverb as being equivalent to, "First secure an income, then practice living according to your own personal moral code", which is not accurate, but is an interesting question.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 02:17:14 PM by Elaine »

Daisy

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Re: FIRE and Virtue
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2014, 03:28:51 PM »
Virtue is nearly synonymous with "excellence" in ancient Greece.

Arete, if you're familiar with the term.

EDIT: Wikipedia Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete - That may be helpful to read, and then evaluate the quote.  Thanks for pointing that out DD.

I read the Wikipedia entry for Arete and saw this:
"In the Homeric poems, Areté is frequently associated with bravery, but more often, with effectiveness. The man or woman of Areté is a person of the highest effectiveness; they use all their faculties: strength, bravery and wit, to achieve real results."

My interpretation is that you achieve your most effectiveness after having some experience under your belt. You can see this with the more experienced people at work vs. the newbies. You can have all of the book knowledge in the world, but you need to go through some learning experiences before you can be truly effective.

Also, having gone through some knocks in your life in obtaining your wealth and independence, you gain more confidence and bravery to do the right thing. When you are young, you may not have the confidence or life skills to be effective in doing the right thing, even if you know what the right thing is. Society may also trust you more as you are older and have more experience, so people will actually listen to you instead of brushing you off as a young dreamer.

 

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