Federal Employees WFH? WTF?

[GuitarStv]

i personally think WFH is a winner when done properly and can really reduce costs for companies. But it’s not one size fits all.

Right.  Which is why a mandate to completely end WFH regardless of what the managers and employers are saying is nonsense.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

i personally think WFH is a winner when done properly and can really reduce costs for companies. But it’s not one size fits all.

Right.  Which is why a mandate to completely end WFH regardless of what the managers and employers are saying is nonsense.

Exactly. I'm truly not sure what the point of the thread is. It feels like a straw man because....I mean... No one is mandating remote work, obviously. Companies, governments, whomever, already have autonomy to do remote work or not as they see fit.

The only thing that's happening is companies seem to be more inclined to RTO and the government is mandating RTO. There's really no narrative here about "WFH? WTF?" Unless you're so sure that a large number of organizations have mistakenly gone WFH, there's really no story, and even if that's your perspective, you're winning. Things are already going back in that direction, and the government is leading the charge....

[ATtiny85]

Management sometimes makes bad decisions.  Yet they always have a goal of making their organization function in the most effective way possible.

Based on experience, I have to disagree with that. What management really wants is to look good, be around long enough to maximize their income, then jump to the next job while leaving the previous company in tatters.

My company recently spent millions having McKinsey consultants dream up a reorg plan. We're half way through implementation, and the McKinsey 'expert' just quit or got fired - we're not sure which it was. On the face of it, the plan seems to be to get as many people as possible to quit so they don't have to pay severance, and outsource as many jobs as possible to India.

What this means for the company ten years down the road remains to be seen, but I'll be eating popcorn and watching from the sidelines by then. I already see problems, such as people doing their jobs to satisfy metrics rather than doing things properly. A standard response to a trouble ticket is "If we don't hear back from you we'll close this ticket", usually sent in the middle of the night US time, and the ticket is closed by the time you get the message. Wow, look at all the tickets they closed!

Our upper management team has gone full in with BCG. Apparently the BCG plan works for only a few months because we reorganize and pivot every two years or so. Good work if you can get it, I am jealous. Imagine getting a seven figure payoff every couple years from the same group of dipshits.

[partgypsy]

The rto combined with the pause in hiring, and also that probationary period employees are immediately laid off is absolutely done to increase dysfunction/strain of all government employees. Here in the VA we already have staffing issues. especially in rural areas. What that means is we have open job positions and are unable to fill them. Some inpatient hospitalist rural areas maybe are supposed to have 8 FT hospitalists, and only have 2. It is also an attack on science, research, and health related positions. Trump and Maga have effectively made it so anyone in those fields (as well as gov workers in general) are "liberal" coded and hence the enemy. If you can take someone like Fauci who has dedicated his life to improving the health and welfare of public health and by his actions saved literally thousands of lives, a public servant in the true sense of the word, and made him out to be the "bad one", well anyone is fair game. That's where we're at. I imagine attacks on teachers, professors, and academics will escalate.

[partgypsy]

https://time.com/6995389/academic-freedom-classic-education/

and I don't need to point out the history that authoritative regimes (in Russia, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot in Cambodia, China) have a consistent history of discrediting, attacking and and dismantling of other sources of authority and information in the form of persecuting professors, academics, journalists, and even liberal churches. These actions preceeded the wider range of human rights abuses. I would be extremely wary of a government who is weakening research, education, and other social structures in this fashion.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism

[Financial.Velociraptor]

Thinking about the end game for me personally as an investor. 

Does anyone know where I can find total Federal Government Payroll Expense by month?  I want to follow whether there are substantial budget savings here.  I can see a lot of people giving up on civil service careers and Trump refusing to replace them as a method of shrinking the government.  I don't think his party cares what part of the government gets cuts so long as it isn't the military.  Not going to get into whether this is a 'good idea' or not.  Just want to understand what is going to happen to the deficit and long term interest rates over the next four years.

[dandarc]

Thinking about the end game for me personally as an investor. 

Does anyone know where I can find total Federal Government Payroll Expense by month?  I want to follow whether there are substantial budget savings here.  I can see a lot of people giving up on civil service careers and Trump refusing to replace them as a method of shrinking the government.  I don't think his party cares what part of the government gets cuts so long as it isn't the military.  Not going to get into whether this is a 'good idea' or not.  Just want to understand what is going to happen to the deficit and long term interest rates over the next four years.

Not by month, but apparently FY2022 the total cost of all federal employees was $271 billion according to the CBO.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60235#:~:text=the%20Postal%20Service.-,The%20Federal%20Workforce,Veterans%20Affairs%2C%20and%20Homeland%20Security.

ETA: Of which 60% is military, VA, Homeland Security. You know, stuff that even Trump probably doesn't want to lose too many people (maybe except the VA - dude must know he needs Military and Homeland Security to do the nonsense he's trying to do, right?).

[partgypsy]

Thinking about the end game for me personally as an investor. 

Does anyone know where I can find total Federal Government Payroll Expense by month?  I want to follow whether there are substantial budget savings here.  I can see a lot of people giving up on civil service careers and Trump refusing to replace them as a method of shrinking the government.  I don't think his party cares what part of the government gets cuts so long as it isn't the military.  Not going to get into whether this is a 'good idea' or not.  Just want to understand what is going to happen to the deficit and long term interest rates over the next four years.

the short answer is that current directives are going to undermine the effectiveness and productivity of the government. It is also going to cause the US to shed many high quality jobs. This will have wider effects on the economy including shrinking the economy, which is not good for balancing budgets and deficits.
What is generally advised when a recession is anticipated?

[Financial.Velociraptor]

What is generally advised when a recession is anticipated?

I'm not certain we see a recession in the same way we have seen them in the past.  They have been sharper and shorter since GFC.  The Fed has found some novel new tricks to kick the can down the road. 

I think what we see is people who are non political power brokers drive up long term interest rates.  Short long term bonds until it looks like a breaking point is near then load up at a high yield?

[Peachtea]

Thinking about the end game for me personally as an investor. 

Does anyone know where I can find total Federal Government Payroll Expense by month?  I want to follow whether there are substantial budget savings here.  I can see a lot of people giving up on civil service careers and Trump refusing to replace them as a method of shrinking the government.  I don't think his party cares what part of the government gets cuts so long as it isn't the military.  Not going to get into whether this is a 'good idea' or not.  Just want to understand what is going to happen to the deficit and long term interest rates over the next four years.

It will have no affect on the deficit. First, federal employee salary and benefits are less than 6% of the overall ~$6.7 trillion annual budget. Keep in mind that 60% of that 6% is defense, homeland security, and VA salaries and benefits. Second, the temporary cost savings from employees quitting will be eaten up by the increase in real estate costs to have office space for those who don't. And then those positions will be filled again in the next admin, further increasing expenses.

[Metalcat]

Thinking about the end game for me personally as an investor. 

Does anyone know where I can find total Federal Government Payroll Expense by month?  I want to follow whether there are substantial budget savings here.  I can see a lot of people giving up on civil service careers and Trump refusing to replace them as a method of shrinking the government.  I don't think his party cares what part of the government gets cuts so long as it isn't the military.  Not going to get into whether this is a 'good idea' or not.  Just want to understand what is going to happen to the deficit and long term interest rates over the next four years.

This is exactly it. The Canadian government mandated RTO overriding all managerial and even executive discretion, and thanks to the union backlash and lawsuits, it's become nakedly clear that the motivation was to shrink the civil service without having to pay for expensive layoffs.

Musk has stated this exact same position about RTO mandates several times and he's famous for his belief that most workforces could be shrunk by about half and become more productive.

So yeah, it doesn't really matter what the data on productivity are when the people making decisions fundamentally just want people to quit.

[NorCal]

I just met up with a friend. He’s an engineer at NASA in Colorado. Pretty much everything they do is remote, with some level of travel.  He just got the RTO notification, although there’s no details and no plan.

The closest thing he has to a home office is Moffat Field in CA.

I don’t care how much the pay factor changes, you’re not raising a family of four in Mountains View on a government salary.

He expects about half of the senior NASA workforce to quit in the next 6 months. These aren’t exactly easy to replace skills. He believes this is a deliberate effort to gut NASA of talent so that the government will be more reliant on SpaceX.

[jrhampt]

Yes, this is absolutely intended to reduce the workforce.  It is not about productivity.  We've also seen this in megacorps including mine over the past couple of years.  It's effective and allows them to avoid paying severance since the employees have little to no recourse.  Otherwise as stated upthread RTO is a mind-boggling waste of money, gas, time, everything.

[JGS1980]

Now, with RTO they will have to keep the field office space they were intending to give up. When the remote workers decline to return, the office will still be empty, but now there's not going to be employees working. They will have to keep the empty office space for future employees that they won't actually be able to hire until/if Congress increases their budget or enough people leave other offices/ HQ. In the meanwhile, the position vacancies will be put towards paying for the empty office space in the field and buying back lease space at HQ that was not budgeted for. We anticipate another round of early retirement offers, if the vacancies from people quitting isn'tenough to make up for the cost of the increased HQ office space. It is such a colossal waste of money.

And that's just the waste in real estate costs. HQ and field offices are located in bigger cities that have higher locality pay. My agency saves ~$24k/year in salary and benefits by having me work remotely in a city with "rest of US" locality pay vs Chicago locality pay. The locality pay for other cities where we have officer are even higher, with more cost savings potential if you can spread those employees out to home offices in smaller cities.

Don't forget that Trump is nothing if not self-motivated. HE IS IN THE REAL ESTATE BUSINESS!!! Commercial Real Estate has taken a hit since the pandemic. RTO policies will invariably increase demand for urban commercial real estate, thus driving up rents and $$$ for the president and his RE cronies.

I would also add that conversions of commercial real estate to residential that is currently ongoing in many locations to better utilize that unused space while simultaneously helping with the housing crisis will be stopped in its tracks. Ironically, a lot of those conversions are subsidized federally AND on a state level. More waste.

[Fomerly known as something]

I just met up with a friend. He’s an engineer at NASA in Colorado. Pretty much everything they do is remote, with some level of travel.  He just got the RTO notification, although there’s no details and no plan.

The closest thing he has to a home office is Moffat Field in CA.

I don’t care how much the pay factor changes, you’re not raising a family of four in Mountains View on a government salary.

He expects about half of the senior NASA workforce to quit in the next 6 months. These aren’t exactly easy to replace skills. He believes this is a deliberate effort to gut NASA of talent so that the government will be more reliant on SpaceX.

Actually you can.  We have multiple in my office.

[six-car-habit]

 I just want to note that I work in utilities operation and repair for the US Gov't. 
  Have never had a "work from home" day.  Never took a day off or spend a day at home due to Covid-.

 i think there are more 'wrench turners' and electricians, electronic professionals, fabricators, -  working for the Gov't than many people realize.
  People are not affixing new machinery and systems, repairing + operating old systems + performing tests; onto ships, submarines, planes, in buildings and facilities, etc. - from the comfort of their kitchen wearing their pajamas.

 Granted the folks I know work for DOD, and other agencies could be vastly different.

  AI is not going to perform these requirements without people to perform the end tasks, and i've yet to meet a Robot that can remove a manhole cover, climb down a ladder into a tunnel or up onto a building roof, diagnose a malfunctioning pipe, pump, circuit breaker or control board, take measurements, order parts, replace them, test the unit and bring the system back online - so that co-workers can stay warm, or have electricity to run their processes...

[JLee]

I just want to note that I work in utilities operation and repair for the US Gov't. 
  Have never had a "work from home" day.  Never took a day off or spend a day at home due to Covid-.

 i think there are more 'wrench turners' and electricians, electronic professionals, fabricators, -  working for the Gov't than many people realize.
  People are not affixing new machinery and systems, repairing + operating old systems + performing tests; onto ships, submarines, planes, in buildings and facilities, etc. - from the comfort of their kitchen wearing their pajamas.

 Granted the folks I know work for DOD, and other agencies could be vastly different.

  AI is not going to perform these requirements without people to perform the end tasks, and i've yet to meet a Robot that can remove a manhole cover, climb down a ladder into a tunnel or up onto a building roof, diagnose a malfunctioning pipe, pump, circuit breaker or control board, take measurements, order parts, replace them, test the unit and bring the system back online - so that co-workers can stay warm, or have electricity to run their processes...

Did I miss something? I wasn't aware anyone was pushing for tradespeople to work from home.  I didn't work from home when I was a police officer either, but now that I effectively type for a living there's dramatically less reason for me to be in a physical office.

[Metalcat]

I just want to note that I work in utilities operation and repair for the US Gov't. 
  Have never had a "work from home" day.  Never took a day off or spend a day at home due to Covid-.

 i think there are more 'wrench turners' and electricians, electronic professionals, fabricators, -  working for the Gov't than many people realize.
  People are not affixing new machinery and systems, repairing + operating old systems + performing tests; onto ships, submarines, planes, in buildings and facilities, etc. - from the comfort of their kitchen wearing their pajamas.

 Granted the folks I know work for DOD, and other agencies could be vastly different.

  AI is not going to perform these requirements without people to perform the end tasks, and i've yet to meet a Robot that can remove a manhole cover, climb down a ladder into a tunnel or up onto a building roof, diagnose a malfunctioning pipe, pump, circuit breaker or control board, take measurements, order parts, replace them, test the unit and bring the system back online - so that co-workers can stay warm, or have electricity to run their processes...

Did I miss something? I wasn't aware anyone was pushing for tradespeople to work from home.  I didn't work from home when I was a police officer either, but now that I effectively type for a living there's dramatically less reason for me to be in a physical office.

Yeah, I don't get it either. In my past job there was no option to work from home, but I would have still aggressively supported WFH as an option for anyone who prefers it because it just makes so much more sense and would get them off of the mutherfucking highway while I was trying to get to work, lol.

Ugh, the lack of traffic during the pandemic was so lovely. I hate when I go back to our city house and have to deal with gridlock again, knowing that a pile of the people in that gridlock are federal employees who really, REALLY don't want to be going in to the office anyway.

[Telecaster]

Did I miss something? I wasn't aware anyone was pushing for tradespeople to work from home.  I didn't work from home when I was a police officer either, but now that I effectively type for a living there's dramatically less reason for me to be in a physical office.

Trump has wildly inflated the percentage of federal workers who don't work in the office, falsely claiming that only 6% do so.    The point here I believe is that lots of federal workers don't commonly work in the office anyway.  It is clear this policy is not based on any type of objective analysis.    The justification is simply made up. 

Different studies say different things about the effectiveness of WFH.   But one thing that is clear is that employees with some WFH capability are significantly happier.    That fact should be weighed into the decision making process somehow.   

It is certainly a fair conclusion that some jobs and employees need to be in the office full time.  But it is also a fair conclusion that some jobs and some employees don't need to be in the office full time.   

For example, I have a friend who moved to Salt Lake from Silicon Valley during COVID.   Her company issued a return to office order, and she successfully argued that none of her team members or project locations were in Silicon Valley so there was no real benefit to her being in the office, since her calls and meetings were all remote anyway.  Her bossed agreed.   But that requires applying logic and common sense to problem and that's not what is wanted here.   What is wanted is compliance.   The notion everybody must be in the office is an example of the rigid, bureaucratic mindset that paralyzed Trump's first administration.   

[partgypsy]

they've already admitted they are doing this to force Federal workers to quit en masse. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/20/politics/doge-remote-work-federal-employees/

Musk and Ramaswamy published an op-ed in The Wall Street Journal that outlined their plans to reform the government and took aim at remote work. “Requiring federal employees to come to the office five days a week would result in a wave of voluntary terminations that we welcome"

Musk and Ramasway framed is as a "perk" that should be taken away. article "Currently, not all federal workers are required to be in the office five days a week. Each agency determines its remote policy to best complete its mission..

Musk and Ramaswamy are currently identifying all the places across the sprawling federal government where they might be able to cut, according to the source, while Ramaswamy is simultaneously taking the lead on crafting the legal justification for the cuts they recommend..

They will hire additional people eventually, but it’s going to be a small, nimble team, the source said. “It won’t be hundreds of people. It will be very small."

My take. Sure conservatives say they want a small government and to reduce costs. But that's not really true because their attacks are not towards Defense, which takes up a large amount of the budget. This especially does not make sense if Trump wants to withdraw from our role as peacekeeper of the world. No, it first to: punish. Hence the immediate firings at the DOJ. The rescindment of equity officers and policies.  2nd, the cost cutting is used as an excuse to grab power which (in combination with schedule F) is a very effective one. A self-coup. They say they are going to allow the agencies make decisions to make cuts. Rumors (see post below) that is not true. They are going for a top down decimation of our government. This includes the use of schedule F to greatly expand what gov jobs are considered political appointees, such that essentially the head of all the agencies as well as many layers below them, are hired and fired based on the president. I cannot confirm the information in the post below. It is true that OPM has sending out mass emails directly to all Federal employees. OPM is bypassing the agencies and our directors in communications (they weren't even informed, so our supervisors and It initially said it was phishing and disregard). This bypassing of normal channels and levels has not been done before. Bottom line, we the US, are losing our functioning and impartial (we vow to serve NOT the President, but the American People) Federal government.

[partgypsy]

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/commentary/2019/10/the-oath-of-office-and-what-it-means/

[six-car-habit]

I just want to note that I work in utilities operation and repair for the US Gov't. 
  Have never had a "work from home" day.  Never took a day off or spend a day at home due to Covid-.

 i think there are more 'wrench turners' and electricians, electronic professionals, fabricators, -  working for the Gov't than many people realize.
  People are not affixing new machinery and systems, repairing + operating old systems + performing tests; onto ships, submarines, planes, in buildings and facilities, etc. - from the comfort of their kitchen wearing their pajamas.

 Granted the folks I know work for DOD, and other agencies could be vastly different.

  AI is not going to perform these requirements without people to perform the end tasks, and i've yet to meet a Robot that can remove a manhole cover, climb down a ladder into a tunnel or up onto a building roof, diagnose a malfunctioning pipe, pump, circuit breaker or control board, take measurements, order parts, replace them, test the unit and bring the system back online - so that co-workers can stay warm, or have electricity to run their processes...

Did I miss something? I wasn't aware anyone was pushing for tradespeople to work from home.  I didn't work from home when I was a police officer either, but now that I effectively type for a living there's dramatically less reason for me to be in a physical office.

Yeah, I don't get it either. In my past job there was no option to work from home, but I would have still aggressively supported WFH as an option for anyone who prefers it because it just makes so much more sense and would get them off of the mutherfucking highway while I was trying to get to work, lol.

Ugh, the lack of traffic during the pandemic was so lovely. I hate when I go back to our city house and have to deal with gridlock again, knowing that a pile of the people in that gridlock are federal employees who really, REALLY don't want to be going in to the office anyway.

Maybe the tone came across wrong {?}
- I was just putting out my example to show that there are folks in gov't employ who don't work from home, have jobs that couldn't possibly be done from home, and there are probably more similar gov't jobs than people think.  I don't expect to remotely access my job and responsibilities.  If other folks can be efficient in a WFH scenario, whether govt or private sector, great.

[Metalcat]

Maybe the tone came across wrong {?}
- I was just putting out my example to show that there are folks in gov't employ who don't work from home, have jobs that couldn't possibly be done from home, and there are probably more similar gov't jobs than people think.  I don't expect to remotely access my job and responsibilities.  If other folks can be efficient in a WFH scenario, whether govt or private sector, great.

Yeah, total misinterpretation on our parts.

[rothwem]

My sister works as a statistician for a major federal agency, and she's been WFH 4/5 days per week and was recently called back.  She lives close by so its not a big deal for her, but there's currently not enough desks for everyone so she's sharing a desk in an office. The proximity is extremely tight apparently.  I'd be really surprised if she doesn't take the offer, she's pretty irked by it.  However, I just saw this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/29/us/politics/trump-federal-workers-buyout.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20250129&instance_id=146081&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=123091539&segment_id=189570&user_id=601346289b01eb09175f5b85b558a7a4

The quote at the end is pretty unnerving though:

Is the offer legal?
Much about the plan remained unclear, including whether the administration can legally offer such a sweeping buyout package without budget authorization from Congress. On the Senate floor on Tuesday night, Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia, urged federal workers not to resign and warned that the administration was not legally bound to pay them after they stopped working.

“The president has no authority to make that offer” Mr. Kaine said. “There’s no budget line item to pay people who are not showing up for work. If you accept that offer and resign, he’ll stiff you.”

Oof. 

[dandarc]

Get em to quit and then replace them with remote contract workers at double to triple the cost. AKA the Florida playbook. And quite often literally the same person doing the work that was before.

[MrGreen]

My sister works as a statistician for a major federal agency, and she's been WFH 4/5 days per week and was recently called back.  She lives close by so its not a big deal for her, but there's currently not enough desks for everyone so she's sharing a desk in an office. The proximity is extremely tight apparently.  I'd be really surprised if she doesn't take the offer, she's pretty irked by it.  However, I just saw this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/29/us/politics/trump-federal-workers-buyout.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20250129&instance_id=146081&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=123091539&segment_id=189570&user_id=601346289b01eb09175f5b85b558a7a4

The quote at the end is pretty unnerving though:

Is the offer legal?
Much about the plan remained unclear, including whether the administration can legally offer such a sweeping buyout package without budget authorization from Congress. On the Senate floor on Tuesday night, Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia, urged federal workers not to resign and warned that the administration was not legally bound to pay them after they stopped working.

“The president has no authority to make that offer” Mr. Kaine said. “There’s no budget line item to pay people who are not showing up for work. If you accept that offer and resign, he’ll stiff you.”

Oof.

Just like Musk stiffed all those Twitter employees on their severances. Just like Trump stiffed all those cities on their rally bills. Their word is worthless. How anyone doesn't understand this by now is beyond me.

[Metalcat]

Get em to quit and then replace them with remote contract workers at double to triple the cost. AKA the Florida playbook. And quite often literally the same person doing the work that was before.

Yep. Once my DH no longer has an exemption from RTO, he'll just quit the federal government and then contract his services back to them for a premium.

[dandarc]

Get em to quit and then replace them with remote contract workers at double to triple the cost. AKA the Florida playbook. And quite often literally the same person doing the work that was before.

Yep. Once my DH no longer has an exemption from RTO, he'll just quit the federal government and then contract his services back to them for a premium.

And presumably at least 1 layer of middle-men will be taking a slice as well. End result is to increase costs while simultaneously decreasing quality. Perfect if you want to make the case the government sucks and your base won't realize you're the one who made it that way.

[Metalcat]

Get em to quit and then replace them with remote contract workers at double to triple the cost. AKA the Florida playbook. And quite often literally the same person doing the work that was before.

Yep. Once my DH no longer has an exemption from RTO, he'll just quit the federal government and then contract his services back to them for a premium.

And presumably at least 1 layer of middle-men will be taking a slice as well. End result is to increase costs while simultaneously decreasing quality. Perfect if you want to make the case the government sucks and your base won't realize you're the one who made it that way.

Exactly.

[simonsez]

My sister works as a statistician for a major federal agency, and she's been WFH 4/5 days per week and was recently called back.  She lives close by so its not a big deal for her, but there's currently not enough desks for everyone so she's sharing a desk in an office. The proximity is extremely tight apparently.  I'd be really surprised if she doesn't take the offer, she's pretty irked by it.  However, I just saw this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/29/us/politics/trump-federal-workers-buyout.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20250129&instance_id=146081&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=123091539&segment_id=189570&user_id=601346289b01eb09175f5b85b558a7a4

The quote at the end is pretty unnerving though:

Is the offer legal?
Much about the plan remained unclear, including whether the administration can legally offer such a sweeping buyout package without budget authorization from Congress. On the Senate floor on Tuesday night, Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia, urged federal workers not to resign and warned that the administration was not legally bound to pay them after they stopped working.

“The president has no authority to make that offer” Mr. Kaine said. “There’s no budget line item to pay people who are not showing up for work. If you accept that offer and resign, he’ll stiff you.”

Oof.

Just like Musk stiffed all those Twitter employees on their severances. Just like Trump stiffed all those cities on their rally bills. Their word is worthless. How anyone doesn't understand this by now is beyond me.

I mean, what's my alternative? I also am a statistician at a federal agency and have effectively been remote since 2017. So I can stay for maybe a few months IF I get some type of temporary clearance to try to give myself some time and find a different job since I'm not flying to DC to check a box for any appreciable amount of time. Let's say I somehow am approved and have 3 months of employment before I am effectively forced out. If the deferred resignation is real, I just cost myself 5 extra months of pay, not to mention the opportunity cost of wages I could've earned in the meantime since the FAQs on OPM says those who resign do not have to work anymore thru September.

I'm going to have to get a new job no matter what. Do I go for a risky 3 months? Or opt for resignation with ~8 months of pay with the chance of some fuckery?

I have so many questions regarding payout, TSP, health insurance, pensions, possible future federal work, etc. with not much time nor guidance from OPM/my agency's HR to figure this all out.  It's stressful, frightening, disillusioning, and possibly an opportunity if I'm being truly honest.  There has been a lot of bad policy flying around lately but some of the ideas behind them are not all evil or that bad.  IDK, sigh

I keep telling myself that it's rare nowadays for people to never experience any bumps in the road over the course of their career. I started in my current branch at age 24 out of grad school and have had a wonderful experience providing data/information to the American public and working alongside some brilliant minds. It's a shame on some levels if this is the end of this particular chapter but I gotta believe if I'm proactive there will be opportunities to make the most of this. Trying not to burn any bridges or let emotions get the best of me and realize this will eventually be a blip in my life's journey and there are so many bigger fish to fry in life than where I work. Speaking of, my newborn daughter needs me (thank you PPL! I will figure out the 12 week payback somehow)!

[englishteacheralex]

I really wouldn't take the offer--my husband works for the VA, got that email, and he says there's no way the 8 months of paid leave thing is legit. It's a trap. A scam. Don't send the "resign" email.

[the_hobbitish]

Agencies have legal ways to do a reduction in force or to offer early retirement. This doesn't look anything like that. Please don't resign thinking there's any chance you will get any pay once you leave.

[ZiziPB]

I agree with everyone saying not to fall for Musk's scam.  As federal employee and, most likely, a union member you have various protections under the law.  Once you "resign voluntarily" those protections would likely not apply.  And good luck enforcing any empty promises of paid leave, severance or whatever else was in the email... 

[blue_green_sparks]

When I was 57, my engineering company with a well-paid, experienced staff offered a RIF package that was worth $70K in my case. Every legal detail was spelled out in advance. The deal was essentially a contract. I knew I was FI already, so I grabbed it. The response was overwhelming, and I'd say about 80% of the working knowledge...just walked out the front door. Years later, the firm is still incapable and has yet to recover. The CEO got his cost-savings bonus, no doubt.

This Federal RIF does not seem well structured. I would have so many questions. I would want every detail in writing.

[wenchsenior]

My sister works as a statistician for a major federal agency, and she's been WFH 4/5 days per week and was recently called back.  She lives close by so its not a big deal for her, but there's currently not enough desks for everyone so she's sharing a desk in an office. The proximity is extremely tight apparently.  I'd be really surprised if she doesn't take the offer, she's pretty irked by it.  However, I just saw this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/29/us/politics/trump-federal-workers-buyout.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20250129&instance_id=146081&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=123091539&segment_id=189570&user_id=601346289b01eb09175f5b85b558a7a4

The quote at the end is pretty unnerving though:

Is the offer legal?
Much about the plan remained unclear, including whether the administration can legally offer such a sweeping buyout package without budget authorization from Congress. On the Senate floor on Tuesday night, Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia, urged federal workers not to resign and warned that the administration was not legally bound to pay them after they stopped working.

“The president has no authority to make that offer” Mr. Kaine said. “There’s no budget line item to pay people who are not showing up for work. If you accept that offer and resign, he’ll stiff you.”

Oof.

Just like Musk stiffed all those Twitter employees on their severances. Just like Trump stiffed all those cities on their rally bills. Their word is worthless. How anyone doesn't understand this by now is beyond me.

I mean, what's my alternative? I also am a statistician at a federal agency and have effectively been remote since 2017. So I can stay for maybe a few months IF I get some type of temporary clearance to try to give myself some time and find a different job since I'm not flying to DC to check a box for any appreciable amount of time. Let's say I somehow am approved and have 3 months of employment before I am effectively forced out. If the deferred resignation is real, I just cost myself 5 extra months of pay, not to mention the opportunity cost of wages I could've earned in the meantime since the FAQs on OPM says those who resign do not have to work anymore thru September.

I'm going to have to get a new job no matter what. Do I go for a risky 3 months? Or opt for resignation with ~8 months of pay with the chance of some fuckery?

I have so many questions regarding payout, TSP, health insurance, pensions, possible future federal work, etc. with not much time nor guidance from OPM/my agency's HR to figure this all out.  It's stressful, frightening, disillusioning, and possibly an opportunity if I'm being truly honest.  There has been a lot of bad policy flying around lately but some of the ideas behind them are not all evil or that bad.  IDK, sigh

I keep telling myself that it's rare nowadays for people to never experience any bumps in the road over the course of their career. I started in my current branch at age 24 out of grad school and have had a wonderful experience providing data/information to the American public and working alongside some brilliant minds. It's a shame on some levels if this is the end of this particular chapter but I gotta believe if I'm proactive there will be opportunities to make the most of this. Trying not to burn any bridges or let emotions get the best of me and realize this will eventually be a blip in my life's journey and there are so many bigger fish to fry in life than where I work. Speaking of, my newborn daughter needs me (thank you PPL! I will figure out the 12 week payback somehow)!

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/workforce-rightsgovernance/2025/01/opm-deferred-resignation-offer-sparks-flurry-of-legal-questions/

[Peachtea]

I mean, what's my alternative? ...

What else you can do is look up how much your real severance would be. Even if you get a relocation notice to DC, that's at least 30 days notice, usually 60-90 days. Plus then severance pay. The legal kind. A reassignment outside your commuting area triggers an involuntarily separation if you decline to move, which entitles you to severance pay. With ten years of service, mine is almost six weeks pay. Do you know yours? If you resign you get no severance.

I get that's not as much as the maybe admin pay until Sept 30. But the above is guaranteed time vs shady you might just be put on a list for an earlier RIF time. And your agency might decide to try to find local office space (in another agency space or private) instead of reassigning you to DC. They put the deadline for the deferred resignation the day before the agencies RTO plans are due for a reason. To try to get more people feel pressured into something they might not need.

Consider some of these points when thinking about taking the deferred resignation:
- the cap on buyouts is 25k
- the cap on admin leave is 40 hrs/year
- it says you can work a second job while on the paid admin leave. But we can't even work a second job when furloughed and not being paid unless it gets through our ethics office first. Is your ethics office going to approve you working a second job in a similar field while still considered a fed employee?
- Elon says Sept 30 was chosen as the maximum time allowed due to appropriations only going through the fiscal year. Except we're not appropriated through Sept 30. We're only appropriated through March 14! What happens when congress throws in a line in the next CR that agencies can't pay employees admin leave for deferred resignations?
- Twitter employees with similar offers had a class action lawsuit because they were let go only a couple months into their deferred resignation. There's no recourse because it's not something covered by normal layoff laws. Since it's a resignation before any announced layoffs, not a layoff severance package.

[nouseforausername]

Hopped on here to see what folks were saying about the Fork in the Road "deal" and I find it telling that even on a blog committed to the goal of quitting early, folks think it's a really bad idea.

[blue_green_sparks]

I mean, what's my alternative? ...

There's no recourse because it's not something covered by normal layoff laws. Since it's a resignation before any announced layoffs, not a layoff severance package.

This is the crux of the matter.
The systematic dismantling of the Federal government is what billionaires dream about because it is the only organization that can redistribute their wealth to the masses through taxation. It is reckless of them because eventually (and once again there) will be a strong backlash, either by voting (if still possible) or by more malicious means, when CEOs, millionaires, and their puppet lawmakers/politicians could become major security risks. Occupy Wallstreet scared them good, but they forgot already.

[englishteacheralex]

Hopped on here to see what folks were saying about the Fork in the Road "deal" and I find it telling that even on a blog committed to the goal of quitting early, folks think it's a really bad idea.

Because it's a scam.

[simonsez]

I don't want to go into the details of my own situation too deeply (aside from what I've already said) as while I live 900 miles away from DC, my duty station is still DC. So I don't think any relocation would be relevant to me but very well could be to others.

Telework was taken away officially yesterday at my agency for all non bargaining unit employees (supervisory 13s, 14s, 15s).

I'm currently on leave due to a birth but we did receive perhaps the most official looking document today and does indirectly mention backpay in case of a govt shutdown. 

I am still gathering information and appreciate the feedback and advice, especially those who are/were feds or have experience with severance.  Many questions still remain!

I know a household with two feds, one is resigning (and already has a new job lined up in private sector) and the other is not. Interesting hedge. Crystal balls are still very blurry!

[Fomerly known as something]

Hopped on here to see what folks were saying about the Fork in the Road "deal" and I find it telling that even on a blog committed to the goal of quitting early, folks think it's a really bad idea.

Because it's a scam.

Because it doesn’t apply to likely half of the government.  My agency sent out guidance last night, no one, no employees are eligible.  Oh 4 hours later the lazy MF, sent me an e-mail with FQA’s about fork where it said I could take a vacation if I signed up.  I couldn’t sign up if I wanted to.

[Cassie]

Musk has taken over the treasury payment department and has locked employees out of their computers. He can stop paying federal employees, social security, Medicare, etc. He also has lists of all the employees including the FBI, CIA, etc.

[Sandi_k]

Musk has taken over the treasury payment department and has locked employees out of their computers. He can stop paying federal employees, social security, Medicare, etc. He also has lists of all the employees including the FBI, CIA, etc.

JFC. It really is getting dystopian faster than even I thought possible.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Musk has taken over the treasury payment department and has locked employees out of their computers. He can stop paying federal employees, social security, Medicare, etc. He also has lists of all the employees including the FBI, CIA, etc.

Can you link this please? I've heard he wants it but can't find where he's done it. I'd like the link to share.

[Poundwise]

Musk has taken over the treasury payment department and has locked employees out of their computers. He can stop paying federal employees, social security, Medicare, etc. He also has lists of all the employees including the FBI, CIA, etc.

Can you link this please? I've heard he wants it but can't find where he's done it. I'd like the link to share.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/

Furthermore, in the General Services Administration...
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-lackeys-general-services-administration

This is VERY VERY bad! Are these people even federal employees with clearance to do this? What can we do? Who can do anything?

[Ron Scott]

Musk has taken over the treasury payment department and has locked employees out of their computers. He can stop paying federal employees, social security, Medicare, etc. He also has lists of all the employees including the FBI, CIA, etc.

Can you link this please? I've heard he wants it but can't find where he's done it. I'd like the link to share.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/

Furthermore, in the General Services Administration...
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-lackeys-general-services-administration

This is VERY VERY bad! Are these people even federal employees with clearance to do this? What can we do? Who can do anything?

Just to be clear: What is speculation and what is fact in all this?

From what I can tell there is a good bit of speculation about what Musk et al are doing, but I haven’t seen any evidence of exactly what they’ve done. I read that “some” federal employees have lost access to systems and that “It is unclear precisely why Musk’s team sought access to those systems.” But…what if anything is illegal in all this?

It certainly seems like odd business going on but I can’t tell what. I’m just  trying to learn the truth.

[dandarc]

Musk has taken over the treasury payment department and has locked employees out of their computers. He can stop paying federal employees, social security, Medicare, etc. He also has lists of all the employees including the FBI, CIA, etc.

Can you link this please? I've heard he wants it but can't find where he's done it. I'd like the link to share.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/

Furthermore, in the General Services Administration...
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-lackeys-general-services-administration

This is VERY VERY bad! Are these people even federal employees with clearance to do this? What can we do? Who can do anything?

Just to be clear: What is speculation and what is fact in all this?

From what I can tell there is a good bit of speculation about what Musk et al are doing, but I haven’t seen any evidence of exactly what they’ve done. I read that “some” federal employees have lost access to systems and that “It is unclear precisely why Musk’s team sought access to those systems.” But…what if anything is illegal in all this?

It certainly seems like odd business going on but I can’t tell what. I’m just  trying to learn the truth.

Why don't you do a minute of research yourself.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/

Reuters - about as high-quality and unbiased a source as there is.

[Just Joe]

I don't understand. I thought there were rules to prevent coups. yes, Trump's team was elected but functionally they are operating like a coup or a dictator in respect to department takeovers. Isn't something supposed to limit the executive branch.

Please forgive my ignorance. 

[sixwings]

I don't understand. I thought there were rules to prevent coups. yes, Trump's team was elected but functionally they are operating like a coup or a dictator in respect to department takeovers. Isn't something supposed to limit the executive branch.

Please forgive my ignorance.

The assumption was that each branch would be independent and function as a check on each other. Unfortunately the republican party in the senate, congress and judiciary have decided that party is more important than country and aren't going to function as a check on the executive, in fact they are fully supporting giving up their power to him.

[Ron Scott]

Musk has taken over the treasury payment department and has locked employees out of their computers. He can stop paying federal employees, social security, Medicare, etc. He also has lists of all the employees including the FBI, CIA, etc.

Can you link this please? I've heard he wants it but can't find where he's done it. I'd like the link to share.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/

Furthermore, in the General Services Administration...
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-lackeys-general-services-administration

This is VERY VERY bad! Are these people even federal employees with clearance to do this? What can we do? Who can do anything?

Just to be clear: What is speculation and what is fact in all this?

From what I can tell there is a good bit of speculation about what Musk et al are doing, but I haven’t seen any evidence of exactly what they’ve done. I read that “some” federal employees have lost access to systems and that “It is unclear precisely why Musk’s team sought access to those systems.” But…what if anything is illegal in all this?

It certainly seems like odd business going on but I can’t tell what. I’m just  trying to learn the truth.

Why don't you do a minute of research yourself.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/

Reuters - about as high-quality and unbiased a source as there is.

LOL, that’s one of the pieces I read. Not much meat and contains  limited source material from someone who didn’t want to be named…and even they didn’t know much.

Do YOU read this?