Author Topic: Explain Racism to me  (Read 9477 times)

mindy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 48
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2017, 09:54:44 AM »
I'm positive that the second example is offensive, but I'm not sure whether the first one (Geisha) is.  I don't think I'd wear a Geisha outfit in Kyoto, but unsure whether it would be just another historical figure, comparable to a costume of Marie Antoinett

I don't think wearing kimono or yukata (or other such garments) is offensive, but dressing as a geisha (or geiko, or maiko) can be simply because the Western perception of what a geisha is and does (and even looks like, in terms of makeup and hair styling) is totally off.  Real geisha train for years in various cultural arts and wear their garments in extremely specific ways (coordinating colors in a certain manner, wearing particular kinds of knots on their obi, etc).  I think if you are willing to study hard - places like Immortal Geisha are devoted to such information - then it would be acceptable to "dress as a geisha" for events like a Japanese culture festival, or a fashion show devoted to multicultural outfits, or other such events, if you are wearing the kind of super fancy garments they would or buying vintage kimono to wear.

And I'd say if you're dressing as a specific geisha, yes, that would be more like dressing like Marie Antoinette - but even then, if you're throwing on a cheap satin-y kimono and not even bothering to tie an obi correctly and being a generic geisha, that's pretty disrespectful to the artistry that real geisha aim to cultivate. Even an inexpensive kimono ideally requires some research to put it on correctly - if you wrap the front pieces the wrong way, that's how bodies are dressed for funerals.  So unless you are pretending to be an undead spirit (which those could be a thing, for a costume party - there are lots of undead spirits in Japanese mythology), best to double-check you're doing it right!  Also, my impression is that dressing as a samurai could be acceptable, as it would be like someone dressing like a medieval European knight.  Geisha actually still exist and still spend years training to do what they do.

Caveat: I am a white person, but I have heard many Japanese people express the idea that they don't mind others wearing kimono/similar garments if they are worn properly/with respectful intent.

I lived in Japan for a few years (and actually dressed up as a maiko in Kyoto haha) and honestly all of the Japanese people that I met loved it when foreigners took an interest in their culture. Many companies throughout Japan make money by giving foreigners a "geisha experience". When I did it, they taught me about geisha culture and loved it when I asked questions. I'm sure there are some Japanese people who don't like this, but the ones that I met love that people are interested in their culture as long as you are respectful about it and take care to do it correctly.

Side note: many Japanese people asked to take pictures of me in my maiko outfit because they thought it was awesome

SuperMex

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2017, 12:16:47 PM »
You can wear anything you want and it doesn't make you racist.

The definition of racist is very specific.  "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

You can do or say anything you want if you don't believe your race is superior to someone else-es race then by definition you can't be racist.

I happen to be Hispanic and I can tell you by all the imperial evidence I have seen the superior race is Asian.

They have the highest average IQ's, make the most money, have the lowest incarceration rate, lowest divorce rates, less children out of wedlock, highest graduation rates in high school and college.

By definition I can say Asians are the superior race all day long and I'm not a racist because I'm not Asian.

In truthfulness other than the IQ part I think most of the above stats are do to cultural factors.

The most racist comments I have ever heard in my life were from black men when I was dating a black girl in college.

We as Americans are terrified to be called a racist because it is one of those things where you are in a position of trying to prove you aren't racist.

One of my fellow senior NCO's was turned in for racism by one of his Soldiers because he didn't let her get away with anything. Little did she know his wife was black and the Brigade Equal Opportunity Adviser.

Normally any allegation of racism by a Soldier results in a leader immediately being removed from their position and an investigation. Even if found unsubstantiated the leaders career is usually ruined and the Soldier is moved so their won't be any retaliation. It is a tool Soldiers use when you are pushing them hard or holding them accountable. 

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9504
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2017, 12:47:55 PM »
You can wear anything you want and it doesn't make you racist.

The definition of racist is very specific.  "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

You can do or say anything you want if you don't believe your race is superior to someone else-es race then by definition you can't be racist.

Well, sort of.

Following your logic, one could argue that Hitler wasn't racist . . . maybe he just wrote the things that he did, ordered the executions he did, and incited racial hate because he believed that they would bring him power and control.  We can't peer into his mind to ever be sure, we are only able to judge him by his actions.

The problem with your definition of racist is that it depends on knowing what's going on in the mind of another person . . . which is impossible.  If you strut down main street in full grand wizard KKK garb, you are behaving in a way that's antagonistic to people of a different race and you'll probably be seen by the average person as racist regardless of your personal feelings about blacks.

You life in the land of freedom.  You're free to act however you want.  Others are free to judge you by your actions.

SuperMex

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2017, 01:20:25 PM »
Hitler was most definitely not a racist he killed other people of his same race.

Again that isn't my definition it is the definition straight out of the dictionary.

And yes you don't get to decide who is racist unless they tell you they are superior to other people who aren't their same race. Another thing the idea that anyone should modify their behavior because someone else might be offended is a slippery slope since everyone seems to be offended by something.

I come from the South and I have seen a few burning crosses and even the Klans-man magazine on the coffee table of a friends house. I wasn't antagonized and even if I was the man was in the comfort of his own home he can read whatever he wants. Ironically a black guy and myself are the only people he lets hunt or fish on his property.

"Hitler’s idea of Lebensraum–or, literally, creating more “living space” for Germany and the Germanic people by expanding to other areas of Europe and the Soviet Union through ethnic cleansing, deportation and genocide—was not original. This essentially colonialist concept had been around since the Middle Ages, while the term itself was coined in the early 1900’s by the German ethnographer Friedrich Ratzel. However, in his implementation of Lebensraum, Hitler transformed colonialism into a process of pillaging and mass murder of unprecedented proportions, with tragic consequences for humanity. Claiming that the Germanic people didn’t have enough room and natural resources to sustain their growing population, Hitler wanted to build an Aryan empire by conquering large parts of Europe and the Soviet Union, including Poland, the Ukraine and Russia. In order to achieve this goal, Hitler intended to kill hundreds of millions of their inhabitants and enslave the rest, annihilating and subjugating entire populations whom he considered “subhuman” or, at any rate, far inferior to the Aryan master race."
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 04:15:31 AM by SuperMex »

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1001
  • Age: 35
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #104 on: January 22, 2017, 10:48:20 AM »
Hitler was most definitely not a racist

And yes you don't get to decide who is racist unless they tell you they are superior to other people who aren't their same race.

lol

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5311
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2017, 01:18:08 PM »
Hitler was most definitely not a racist

And yes you don't get to decide who is racist unless they tell you they are superior to other people who aren't their same race.

lol
Hmmm...  there may be some finer points of Adolf Hitler's personal beliefs that are missing here. ..
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1421
  • Location: MA
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2017, 01:34:04 PM »
Quote
The definition of racist is very specific.  "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Ha!  So you think that people who are racist just go around spouting that their race is superior?  You don't think that maybe these groups have altered their tactics a bit in order to draw in more supporters?  You don't think that some racists might present a positive public face in order to more discreetly push their agenda? 

I'm sorry that's so naive. 

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5311
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2017, 01:43:08 PM »
Quote
The definition of racist is very specific.  "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Ha!  So you think that people who are racist just go around spouting that their race is superior?  You don't think that maybe these groups have altered their tactics a bit in order to draw in more supporters?  You don't think that some racists might present a positive public face in order to more discreetly push their agenda? 

I'm sorry that's so naive.
Even if thus is true, what is your point? That some members of racist groups have been duped by the changed tactics and positive images projected by these groups? Or that people that are racist can present a positive public face and provide measurable good to their community even while secretly harboring unpopular beliefs?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9504
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2017, 02:31:16 PM »
Quote
The definition of racist is very specific.  "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Ha!  So you think that people who are racist just go around spouting that their race is superior?  You don't think that maybe these groups have altered their tactics a bit in order to draw in more supporters?  You don't think that some racists might present a positive public face in order to more discreetly push their agenda? 

I'm sorry that's so naive.
Even if thus is true, what is your point? That some members of racist groups have been duped by the changed tactics and positive images projected by these groups? Or that people that are racist can present a positive public face and provide measurable good to their community even while secretly harboring unpopular beliefs?

- Racist doesn't equal stupid
- Racism presents itself in many forms
- It's important to examine actions because they're all that we have to judge someone by


I'd argue that someone who has racist views, but never acts on them is essentially a good person.  I'd also argue that it's possible for someone to provide measurable good to a community that is then outweighed by racist acts that aren't obvious (denying employment to people, supporting public policies that target minorities, passing on their views to children, making people of a particular race feel uncomfortable/afraid in their community, etc.).

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5311
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Explain Racism to me
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2017, 10:09:22 PM »
- Racist doesn't equal stupid
- Racism presents itself in many forms
- It's important to examine actions because they're all that we have to judge someone by


I'd argue that someone who has racist views, but never acts on them is essentially a good person.  I'd also argue that it's possible for someone to provide measurable good to a community that is then outweighed by racist acts that aren't obvious (denying employment to people, supporting public policies that target minorities, passing on their views to children, making people of a particular race feel uncomfortable/afraid in their community, etc.).
Absolutely agree with these points. I'd even go so far as to say that someone could be racist, act upon it and still provide measurable good that outweighs their ill effects. It's a matter of degrees. I strive to hold people more accountable for their actions and the effects of their actions than I do for whatever inner belief they may choose to hold or not to hold.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM