Examples of successfully navigating/maintaining friendships w/ the opposite sex?

[Nick_Miller]

Just wondering if people have wisdom to share on this topic.

I have recently become really close friends with a woman my age. We are working on a project together. We vibe incredibly well. We've known each other for years but these past 6 months or so have been much more...intense, I'd say.

We PM a lot. Sometimes it's about our project, many times it's just friendly chat. We both mention our spouses a decent amount and nothing inappropriate has been said at all. She is really cool and she seems to think the same about me. We joke constantly about moving away together (with our spouses) to a more progressive state. She is becoming one of my best friends, tbh. Any tips on maintaining an appropriate relationship as married people?

I feel we do a good job. We have spoken with each other's spouses. Each spouse is fully aware that we are working on a project together. I'm trying to be objective, but if the situation were flipped, the only thing that might trouble me is just the frequency of chatting. I mean, I chat with her more than any other friend I have.

Any words or wisdom or examples of how you have successfully navigated a similar situation?

[patchyfacialhair]

I'd say trust your gut. Clearly you think this is uncomfortable, so perhaps tone down the non-project talk?

My wife was my boss at one time. It's how we met. We spent many hours together, and one thing led to another, and here we are almost 12 years later, still together, 2 kids, a house, and the cat is really old.

I don't pursue friendships with other women, because I respect my wife, and I know what can happen. That doesn't mean I don't socialize with women or refuse to work with them. My best colleagues at work are women. We have productive conversations at work about work, and occasionally talk about personal lives. But I don't talk to them with my personal cell phone unless it's an emergency. My wife embraces this same guidance with the men she works with. We've never had to talk about it, it seemed to be natural for us to have these boundaries.

It doesn't need to be weird, but if you believe in monogamy or the sanctity of marriage in some form, you can make sure you're not giving others an impression you're not meaning to give. Trust your gut.

[wenchsenior]

I'd also trust your gut.

Personally, my husband and I have plenty of opposite gender friends and always have (most of my friends in college were men, and my husband never had an issue with it), but if either one of us started relying on the friends as our main emotional outlet as opposed to the spouse, or wanted to spend time with them more than the spouse, that would be of concern.

[charis]

I have a number of good male friends, but none with whom I chat with one-on-one with constantly because we don't work together anymore and we prefer in person conversations, but we do text frequently in group texts and occasionally one on one. I recently finished a project with a male coworker and we did chat a lot during it, but it wasn't much that was unrelated to work or bitching about work.

Clicking with someone while working closely with them can get intense pretty quickly. But I know it certainly doesn't have to go beyond a good friendship. Do you socialize after or outside of work? I would include your spouses and/or others and monitor your chats for anything that you'd feel uncomfortable about your spouse reading (that's usually a sign). If the frequency is concerning, maybe subtlely dial it back on your end.

I think you do have to be proactive about giving the vibe that your spouse is your #1 and distance yourself from anyone who seems like they aren't on the same page or as mentioned, has become a significant emotional "partner."

[Captain FIRE]

1) Transparency - make sure your spouse is aware of the conversations (frequency, types of topics), give them opportunities to also become friends with the other person (e.g. get togethers in leisure time)
2) Boundaries - ensure that you are not saying anything inappropriate that would cause issues with spouse (e.g. complaining about spouse, spouse-in-laws, etc)
3) Displacement - ensure you're not devoting time to this new platonic relationship in place of time with your spouse.  What is this relationship displacing?  Gaming/tv time?  Ok.  Date nights and conversations with your spouse?  Problematic.

And maybe dial it back a bit if you are worried.

[PDXTabs]

I think that there are really two questions here:
1. How close should you get to a coworker.
2. How close should you get to an opposite sex friend.*

For #1 I say YOLO it.

For #2 I would say not to do anything that you would regret and that with time things will be easier and more clear. My closest friend is opposite sex and we've never crossed any lines. Only one of you needs to exercise good judgment at any given time. In practical terms I think that the hardest part for us has been jealousy from third parties. But at this point everyone just thinks it is normal as it has been over a decade. I know other people in the same boat. Also, the more you get to know this person the more you will get to know their flaws and the less you will have any delusions that they are prefect.

If both of you left your spouses to be with each other I think that it would be a bad idea (probabilistically speaking), but you wouldn't be the first and some of those people worked out. But I wouldn't recommend it.

* - EDIT to add - in some ways this seems like a weird heteronormative problem to me.

[StarBright]

Thirding "Trust your gut".

If the intensity is bothering you enough to write this, it might be nagging at you and you should pay attention to that.

Back off, just work conversations, dial back any personal conversations (even those mentioning your spouses).

I had a coworker who I worked frequently with, and we totally "vibed", and both of us are married and we love our spouses. But our jobs are a lot, we were stress bonding and working long hours, and we needed to dial back our friendship because it was getting too intense.

Good news! We still work together and the intensity has passed. Interestingly, our friendly texts are almost non-existent now, which means we didn't really need to send them. We have a GREAT working relationship and accomplish a ton together but no longer lean on each for support for work problems.

[Nick_Miller]

Yeah, I will dial it back some.

I still don't feel that either of us has done anything inappropriate, but I have no interest in getting near a slippery slope. Sometimes it helps to just think out loud like this and have internet strangers give their honest takes.

We do socialize a bit, but not a huge amount, maybe a half dozen times a year? Sometimes spouses are around, and sometimes not.

She is very clever, banter flows easily. She feeds my creative side (we're both writers).

My wife indulges me when I sometimes ask her opinion on plot ideas or something, but she has also made it clear that she would prefer I get my 'creative energy' fed through others.

[Steeze]

Personally, I just don’t. I keep it professional and limit my interactions where possible. Probably a bit overboard, but after getting married and especially now with a kid, I don’t really see a point in providing myself with additional opportunities to f*** up my life. I never had many platonic relationships before getting married, I do not really see a reason to start now. Maybe you can keep it 100% platonic, whatever that is, but I don’t see value in it for myself. Do you have many other girls that are friends before and after marriage? If so more power to you, but the fact you are even asking seems like a red flag.

[Kris]

I think it'd be worth spending a few minutes to think about what potential areas of concern you think are there. That might tell you something about where, if anywhere, you should back it down, and how to establish your mental boundaries around this. So, ask yourself if your potential concerns are any, or all, of the following (or maybe other things as well):

- Concern that you personally might start developing inappropriate feelings for her as a result of the feel-good emotional/intellectual contact with her?

- Concern that she might start developing inappropriate feelings of that type?

- Concern that your wife might start becoming uncomfortable with your friendship? If so, what aspects might risk making her feel that way? (amount of time spent, nature of conversations, whether you prioritize time spent with your friend for legitimate professional reasons or maybe less legitimate reasons, etc.)

- Concern that her spouse might feel the same?

- Concern that the friendship might end up exposing pain points in your marriage and make you less satisfied with it? (You mentioned that your wife isn't interested in indulging creative conversations with you... do you think it is possible that over time, you risk feeling closer with this friend and as a result a tiny bit less close to your wife as a result of these conversations?)

- A parallel concern in the case of your friend and her spouse?

Etc.

All of those potential issues have potentially different "solutions". So I guess some soul searching might help you clarify just what is making you worry, and why. And if those worries are actually justified. And if so, what to do about them.

[GuitarStv]

I don't think that chatting/discussion is a problem.  I have one or two close friends who are women, and it's not too different from my friends who are guys.  I am very careful not to put myself into situations where a misunderstanding about the relationship could occur though . . . mostly boils down to "don't ever hang out alone together".  But I'd also discuss it with your wife and see how she feels about it.

[charis]

I understand your hesitation, but most men aren't stalkers.

[jnw]

I'd say 1/3rd of my friends are guys.  Haven't had any issues. I don't have a huge number of friends so maybe that's why.  Just a few really good friends.  My BF is my favorite male friend though.

[Fish Sweet]

I'm not gonna lie, I squinted a bit at the headline of your topic. You can successfully navigate & maintain friendships with people of other genders the same way you navigate & maintain friendships with people of the same gender. If there are concerns about attraction based on gender alone, by that logic gay people should have great difficulty with same gender friendships, and bi people can't have any friendships with anyone at all.  This is a (and I want to say this in a firm but not admonishing tone) you problem.

I'm glad you've found such a good and close friend in this woman. Your concerns about it going into an inappropriate place are worth exploring and thinking over, to avoid problems down the line. But this is a potential issue with many deep/close friendships, not intrinsic to friendships with people of different genders.

Now, my advice as a woman with a soon-to-be wife and many friends of all genders.

• Don't complain to her about your wife. Not substantive complaints, anyway - bitching about snoring is fair game, but marital concerns should be first be addressed in the marriage and then with close friends/family for whom this wouldn't feel difficult or awkward. Also, (not saying this is you, but) a lot of people actively seeking out opportunities to cheat complain about their spouses to test the waters and see if they have a sympathetic audience. You don't want to be misunderstood in this way.
• Avoid body-based compliments. Compliment her scarf or the color of her dress, but not how she wears it. Obviously, no 'nice ass' or the equivalent (unless this is a thing you say regularly to all your other friends too.)
• If you're going out to hang with her in a social context, keep your spouse in the loop... the same way you would with any other social hangout. Let her know where and when, let her know if you'll be staying out late, etc. "I'm going to the bar to grab a beer with my bf Steve" and "I'm going to the bar to grab a beer with my bf Pam" shouldn't look any different in this friendship, and if you start placing weird emphasis on your interactions with "Pam," it will look and FEEL weird and overly focused on her.
• If you feel that your daily chats are becoming too much and too often and about things too close to the heart, dial them back. Nothing wrong with that. That first joyous rush of making a great new friend is great, but slowing down and letting things settle into a comfortable friendly groove is a good feeling too.
• A little bit similar to the first point, but also: avoid falling into a habit of negative venting sessions with each other. I'm not saying OH BE RAINBOWS N SUNSHINE N PUPPIES all the time, but I feel like it's very easy (especially in a work-related context) for small groups of people to fall into mutually-enforced spirals of negativity that turn into isolation that become prime grounds for inappropriate behavior. A lot of 'nobody gets it but us' and 'let us vent to each other about fifty bad things every day' that make the group a "safe" place to dump but also allows the mutual fog of negativity to spill out into other aspects of your life (like your relationship with your wife.)

Things I wouldn't actually worry too much about:

• Having her as your creative sounding board, when your wife isn't. Look, our spouses cannot and should not be all things to us all at once. That's too much to put on any human being. It's good and normal to have friends who fulfill certain parts of our lives that our spouses don't - having a fishing friend or a gaming friend or string quartet friends if your spouse doesn't fish, game, or play the violin. I think this is actually a thing for many creative people - writing groups and beta readers and art pals etc. etc. all serve that purpose, because it's very much needed! Hell, even if your wife was a creative writer on the same page as you, she probably wouldn't be the best person to objectively assess your work anyway.
• The initial ?! intense rush of having found someone who is such a good match to you... as a friend. I don't know about you, but I feel like a lot of adults have a hard time meeting and making close friends, so when you find someone whose personality is a great match for your own, there's often a sense of strangeness and weirdness and like discovering something wonderful and new and also a sense that you want to rush to lock this friendship in, don't let this amazing person get away! And yes, for people who aren't careful, it can turn into inappropriate behavior - but you seem aware of that, and considerate of your wife, so I wouldn't put too much worry in the 'new friendship honeymoon' phase with its intensity of feelings. Time will mellow things out.

[OtherJen]

I understand your hesitation, but most men aren't stalkers.

I'm aware of that, and also aware that it can go both ways.

[charis]

I understand your hesitation, but most men aren't stalkers.

I'm aware of that, and also aware that it can go both ways.

I'm not trying to discount your feelings at all, you had a traumatic experience.

[Kris]

I understand your hesitation, but most men aren't stalkers.

I'm aware of that, and also aware that it can go both ways.

I'm not trying to discount your feelings at all, you had a traumatic experience.

And yet, you kind of did.

[Morning Glory]

I'm not gonna lie, I squinted a bit at the headline of your topic. You can successfully navigate & maintain friendships with people of other genders the same way you navigate & maintain friendships with people of the same gender. If there are concerns about attraction based on gender alone, by that logic gay people should have great difficulty with same gender friendships, and bi people can't have any friendships with anyone at all.  This is a (and I want to say this in a firm but not admonishing tone) you problem.

I'm glad you've found such a good and close friend in this woman. Your concerns about it going into an inappropriate place are worth exploring and thinking over, to avoid problems down the line. But this is a potential issue with many deep/close friendships, not intrinsic to friendships with people of different genders.

Now, my advice as a woman with a soon-to-be wife and many friends of all genders.

• Don't complain to her about your wife. Not substantive complaints, anyway - bitching about snoring is fair game, but marital concerns should be first be addressed in the marriage and then with close friends/family for whom this wouldn't feel difficult or awkward. Also, (not saying this is you, but) a lot of people actively seeking out opportunities to cheat complain about their spouses to test the waters and see if they have a sympathetic audience. You don't want to be misunderstood in this way.
• Avoid body-based compliments. Compliment her scarf or the color of her dress, but not how she wears it. Obviously, no 'nice ass' or the equivalent (unless this is a thing you say regularly to all your other friends too.)
• If you're going out to hang with her in a social context, keep your spouse in the loop... the same way you would with any other social hangout. Let her know where and when, let her know if you'll be staying out late, etc. "I'm going to the bar to grab a beer with my bf Steve" and "I'm going to the bar to grab a beer with my bf Pam" shouldn't look any different in this friendship, and if you start placing weird emphasis on your interactions with "Pam," it will look and FEEL weird and overly focused on her.
• If you feel that your daily chats are becoming too much and too often and about things too close to the heart, dial them back. Nothing wrong with that. That first joyous rush of making a great new friend is great, but slowing down and letting things settle into a comfortable friendly groove is a good feeling too.
• A little bit similar to the first point, but also: avoid falling into a habit of negative venting sessions with each other. I'm not saying OH BE RAINBOWS N SUNSHINE N PUPPIES all the time, but I feel like it's very easy (especially in a work-related context) for small groups of people to fall into mutually-enforced spirals of negativity that turn into isolation that become prime grounds for inappropriate behavior. A lot of 'nobody gets it but us' and 'let us vent to each other about fifty bad things every day' that make the group a "safe" place to dump but also allows the mutual fog of negativity to spill out into other aspects of your life (like your relationship with your wife.)

Things I wouldn't actually worry too much about:

• Having her as your creative sounding board, when your wife isn't. Look, our spouses cannot and should not be all things to us all at once. That's too much to put on any human being. It's good and normal to have friends who fulfill certain parts of our lives that our spouses don't - having a fishing friend or a gaming friend or string quartet friends if your spouse doesn't fish, game, or play the violin. I think this is actually a thing for many creative people - writing groups and beta readers and art pals etc. etc. all serve that purpose, because it's very much needed! Hell, even if your wife was a creative writer on the same page as you, she probably wouldn't be the best person to objectively assess your work anyway.
• The initial ?! intense rush of having found someone who is such a good match to you... as a friend. I don't know about you, but I feel like a lot of adults have a hard time meeting and making close friends, so when you find someone whose personality is a great match for your own, there's often a sense of strangeness and weirdness and like discovering something wonderful and new and also a sense that you want to rush to lock this friendship in, don't let this amazing person get away! And yes, for people who aren't careful, it can turn into inappropriate behavior - but you seem aware of that, and considerate of your wife, so I wouldn't put too much worry in the 'new friendship honeymoon' phase with its intensity of feelings. Time will mellow things out.

This belongs on the best posts thread!!!

I was just going to say something pithy about how opposite sex is easier than opposite political party (at least in my recent experience), but yours is better.

[charis]

I understand your hesitation, but most men aren't stalkers.

I'm aware of that, and also aware that it can go both ways.

I'm not trying to discount your feelings at all, you had a traumatic experience.

And yet, you kind of did.

As I noted, it's fine for the commenter to swear off male friends if she feels more comfortable doing that. But such an anecdote, where a good long-term friend turns into a stalker, is just an anecdote. Not a reasonable basis to avoid opposite gender friends as general advice. There are a lot of shitty people in the world, unfortunately.

[OtherJen]

I understand your hesitation, but most men aren't stalkers.

I'm aware of that, and also aware that it can go both ways.

I'm not trying to discount your feelings at all, you had a traumatic experience.

And yet, you kind of did.

As I noted, it's fine for the commenter to swear off male friends if she feels more comfortable doing that. But such an anecdote, where a good long-term friend turns into a stalker, is just an anecdote. Not a reasonable basis to avoid opposite gender friends as general advice. There are a lot of shitty people in the world, unfortunately.

I took down my post. It's apparently still too sore a subject after 3 years.

[Log]

For an alternative perspective: I’ve gotten along better with female friends my whole life. To me, not being friends with women would be the weird situation. This inhibition around opposite gender friendship is socially constructed, and definitely wrapped in heteronormativity and problematic gender stereotypes.

As another commenter said: are you worried you will develop romantic feelings and not trust yourself to not act on them? Then yeah that’s a problem and you should limit contact, but if that’s the case you probably already know that. Are you worried she might develop romantic feelings for you? That’s not really your problem—you’ve communicated clearly that you’re in a monogamous marriage. The boundary is set. Trust her to respect that boundary until she demonstrates that you should not give her that trust. Are you worried about your spouse becoming jealous or untrusting? That’s a bigger and more complicated problem that I don’t feel qualified to comment on.

But the friendship itself should not be a concern. Having friends of any and all genders is healthy and normal. So, hooray - you’ve made a new friend! Fun.

[ObviouslyNotAGolfer]

In the workplace, always be careful what you say and who you trust. (Trust no one.) You may think many/all of your co-workers are evil, backstabbing, glad-handing, incompetent dirtbags--who have their high-paying/do-nothing jobs because there is nothing but corruption--but don't confide these opinions to any of your co-workers. Assume anything you say may get repeated to the wrong people. Have fun!

[partgypsy]

So, I think there can be many cases where men and women can be good friends. In my own personal cases, I had a fellow coworker who I was friends with same sense of humor, found him attractive. But when we started to talk about our respective spouses, knew I was getting close to a line, and said we shouldn't do that. And after that only hung out in group situations. And told my spouse, who agreed that was the right choice. Unfortunately for me, he also had numerous relationships with women. And he didn't follow the same rules. If the woman involved did not put brakes on, it progressed to an affair. One was a friend that turned into an emotional affair (but she put brakes on anything past that). Another was neighbor fellow mom that was friend to emotional to physical.  And the last was a coworker, which started with cominserating about their respective love lives, to affair. After we got divorced he ended up marrying her. Anyways I'm just saying you are treading on dangerous ground, if you value your marriage or the person you are married to.

[GuitarStv]

So, I think there can be many cases where men and women can be good friends. In my own personal cases, I had a fellow coworker who I was friends with same sense of humor, found him attractive. But when we started to talk about our respective spouses, knew I was getting close to a line, and said we shouldn't do that. And after that only hung out in group situations. And told my spouse, who agreed that was the right choice. Unfortunately for me, he also had numerous relationships with women. And he didn't follow the same rules. If the woman involved did not put brakes on, it progressed to an affair. One was a friend that turned into an emotional affair (but she put brakes on anything past that). Another was neighbor fellow mom that was friend to emotional to physical.  And the last was a coworker, which started with cominserating about their respective love lives, to affair. After we got divorced he ended up marrying her. Anyways I'm just saying you are treading on dangerous ground, if you value your marriage or the person you are married to.

What is an emotional affair?

[charis]

So, I think there can be many cases where men and women can be good friends. In my own personal cases, I had a fellow coworker who I was friends with same sense of humor, found him attractive. But when we started to talk about our respective spouses, knew I was getting close to a line, and said we shouldn't do that. And after that only hung out in group situations. And told my spouse, who agreed that was the right choice. Unfortunately for me, he also had numerous relationships with women. And he didn't follow the same rules. If the woman involved did not put brakes on, it progressed to an affair. One was a friend that turned into an emotional affair (but she put brakes on anything past that). Another was neighbor fellow mom that was friend to emotional to physical.  And the last was a coworker, which started with cominserating about their respective love lives, to affair. After we got divorced he ended up marrying her. Anyways I'm just saying you are treading on dangerous ground, if you value your marriage or the person you are married to.

What is an emotional affair?

It's somewhat hard to define because it can be different for different people. But I think it's generally considered to be when someone else takes the place of your spouse as your go-to person for emotional intimacy and/or you share romantic feelings that haven't been acted upon yet physically.

[StarBright]

So, I think there can be many cases where men and women can be good friends. In my own personal cases, I had a fellow coworker who I was friends with same sense of humor, found him attractive. But when we started to talk about our respective spouses, knew I was getting close to a line, and said we shouldn't do that. And after that only hung out in group situations. And told my spouse, who agreed that was the right choice. Unfortunately for me, he also had numerous relationships with women. And he didn't follow the same rules. If the woman involved did not put brakes on, it progressed to an affair. One was a friend that turned into an emotional affair (but she put brakes on anything past that). Another was neighbor fellow mom that was friend to emotional to physical.  And the last was a coworker, which started with cominserating about their respective love lives, to affair. After we got divorced he ended up marrying her. Anyways I'm just saying you are treading on dangerous ground, if you value your marriage or the person you are married to.

What is an emotional affair?

It is like the intimacy and intensity of a romantic relationship without crossing the line into the physical aspect of it. 

[partgypsy]

So, I think there can be many cases where men and women can be good friends. In my own personal cases, I had a fellow coworker who I was friends with same sense of humor, found him attractive. But when we started to talk about our respective spouses, knew I was getting close to a line, and said we shouldn't do that. And after that only hung out in group situations. And told my spouse, who agreed that was the right choice. Unfortunately for me, he also had numerous relationships with women. And he didn't follow the same rules. If the woman involved did not put brakes on, it progressed to an affair. One was a friend that turned into an emotional affair (but she put brakes on anything past that). Another was neighbor fellow mom that was friend to emotional to physical.  And the last was a coworker, which started with cominserating about their respective love lives, to affair. After we got divorced he ended up marrying her. Anyways I'm just saying you are treading on dangerous ground, if you value your marriage or the person you are married to.

What is an emotional affair?

It is like the intimacy and intensity of a romantic relationship without crossing the line into the physical aspect of it.

there are different def but this comes close to what I had in mind. Like what fishsweet said where you get to confiding in this person, and excluding/not including your spouse in the same Ievel of emotional intimacy, and minimizing, not disclosing to spouse, the amount of time, contact (including texts) with that person. Nothing happens from one time,it's a pattern.

[GuitarStv]

I have very few close personal friends.  With those I do have though, I'd say that we maintain a similar level of emotional intimacy/intensity as with my wife.  I talk openly about any topic with close friends, just as I would with my spouse.  Neither my wife nor I have ever had a problem with this, but we have a pretty strong relationship.

For sure, there would be a problem if the 'emotional affair' is coming at the cost of emotional intimacy with your spouse . . . or if you're sharing romantic feelings (although, I don't think I've ever shared romantic feelings with another person without also attempting to act upon them so not sure that this aspect makes any sense at all to me either).  But there's something very unsettling about the language of the term.  'Emotional affair' rings like something that would be used by an insecure person in a relationship as a way to try to isolate and control their spouse - to prevent them from having deeply connected relationships with others.

But maybe I'm just emotionally promiscuous.  :P

[partgypsy]

Ironically looking back, knowing what I know, would it have been the worse thing if ended up getting involved with my coworker and me and hub breaking up? In restrospect it might have been a better outcome for me! It goes against my moral code so a moot point.

[partgypsy]

I have very few close personal friends.  With those I do have though, I'd say that we maintain a similar level of emotional intimacy/intensity as with my wife.  I talk openly about any topic with close friends, just as I would with my spouse.  Neither my wife nor I have ever had a problem with this, but we have a pretty strong relationship.

For sure, there would be a problem if the 'emotional affair' is coming at the cost of emotional intimacy with your spouse . . . or if you're sharing romantic feelings (although, I don't think I've ever shared romantic feelings with another person without also attempting to act upon them so not sure that this aspect makes any sense at all to me either).  But there's something very unsettling about the language of the term.  'Emotional affair' rings like something that would be used by an insecure person in a relationship as a way to try to isolate and control their spouse - to prevent them from having deeply connected relationships with others.

But maybe I'm just emotionally promiscuous.  :P

I have great, interesting, positive, deep relationships,mostly with girlfriends, but also a couple guys but it doesn't stray into emotional affair bc: it's not diminishing, replacing the partner. Also my ex himself described it as an emotional affair, and it did involve doing some romantic, infatuation feelings and actions. My ex personally felt, as long as he kept the affairs not physical, he was ok. But the process of replacing me as who he confided and shared with, (and badmouthing me) was really the thing that eroded  and ended the marriage. The physical part was just a natural consequence of that closeness and infatuation.  That's why I was telling the op he may be treading into dangerous waters, bc emotional affairs can be very damaging to a relationship. 

[GuitarStv]

I have very few close personal friends.  With those I do have though, I'd say that we maintain a similar level of emotional intimacy/intensity as with my wife.  I talk openly about any topic with close friends, just as I would with my spouse.  Neither my wife nor I have ever had a problem with this, but we have a pretty strong relationship.

For sure, there would be a problem if the 'emotional affair' is coming at the cost of emotional intimacy with your spouse . . . or if you're sharing romantic feelings (although, I don't think I've ever shared romantic feelings with another person without also attempting to act upon them so not sure that this aspect makes any sense at all to me either).  But there's something very unsettling about the language of the term.  'Emotional affair' rings like something that would be used by an insecure person in a relationship as a way to try to isolate and control their spouse - to prevent them from having deeply connected relationships with others.

But maybe I'm just emotionally promiscuous.  :P

I have great, interesting, positive, deep relationships, mostly with girlfriends, but also a couple guys but it doesn't stray into emotional affair bc: it's not diminishing, replacing the partner. Also my ex himself described it as an emotional affair, and it did involve doing some romantic, infatuation feelings and actions. My ex personally felt, as long as he kept the affairs not physical, he was ok. But the process of replacing me as who he confided and shared with, (and badmouthing me) was really the thing that eroded  and ended the marriage. The physical part just brought clarity.  That's why I was telling the op he may be treading into dangerous waters, bc emotional affairs can be very damaging to a relationship.

Yeah, that makes sense.  It sounds more like the problem is not the 'emotional affair' . . . it is in cutting you out emotionally and badmouthing you.  If your ex had an extremely close emotional relationship with someone while being respectful and loving/open with you the whole time, you probably would have continued to be happy, right?

[charis]

I have very few close personal friends.  With those I do have though, I'd say that we maintain a similar level of emotional intimacy/intensity as with my wife.  I talk openly about any topic with close friends, just as I would with my spouse.  Neither my wife nor I have ever had a problem with this, but we have a pretty strong relationship.

For sure, there would be a problem if the 'emotional affair' is coming at the cost of emotional intimacy with your spouse . . . or if you're sharing romantic feelings (although, I don't think I've ever shared romantic feelings with another person without also attempting to act upon them so not sure that this aspect makes any sense at all to me either).  But there's something very unsettling about the language of the term.  'Emotional affair' rings like something that would be used by an insecure person in a relationship as a way to try to isolate and control their spouse - to prevent them from having deeply connected relationships with others.

But maybe I'm just emotionally promiscuous.  :P

I have great, interesting, positive, deep relationships, mostly with girlfriends, but also a couple guys but it doesn't stray into emotional affair bc: it's not diminishing, replacing the partner. Also my ex himself described it as an emotional affair, and it did involve doing some romantic, infatuation feelings and actions. My ex personally felt, as long as he kept the affairs not physical, he was ok. But the process of replacing me as who he confided and shared with, (and badmouthing me) was really the thing that eroded  and ended the marriage. The physical part just brought clarity.  That's why I was telling the op he may be treading into dangerous waters, bc emotional affairs can be very damaging to a relationship.

Yeah, that makes sense.  It sounds more like the problem is not the 'emotional affair' . . . it is in cutting you out emotionally and badmouthing you.  If your ex had an extremely close emotional relationship with someone while being respectful and loving/open with you the whole time, you probably would have continued to be happy, right?

Yeah, it's not just any close emotional relationship. An affair crosses the line into romantic territory or it at least blurs the line at the expense of one's spouse. I see it as shorthand for conduct that sets the groundwork for a physical affair or would be seen as "courting" if the participants were single.

[partgypsy]

I have very few close personal friends.  With those I do have though, I'd say that we maintain a similar level of emotional intimacy/intensity as with my wife.  I talk openly about any topic with close friends, just as I would with my spouse.  Neither my wife nor I have ever had a problem with this, but we have a pretty strong relationship.

For sure, there would be a problem if the 'emotional affair' is coming at the cost of emotional intimacy with your spouse . . . or if you're sharing romantic feelings (although, I don't think I've ever shared romantic feelings with another person without also attempting to act upon them so not sure that this aspect makes any sense at all to me either).  But there's something very unsettling about the language of the term.  'Emotional affair' rings like something that would be used by an insecure person in a relationship as a way to try to isolate and control their spouse - to prevent them from having deeply connected relationships with others.

But maybe I'm just emotionally promiscuous.  :P

I have great, interesting, positive, deep relationships, mostly with girlfriends, but also a couple guys but it doesn't stray into emotional affair bc: it's not diminishing, replacing the partner. Also my ex himself described it as an emotional affair, and it did involve doing some romantic, infatuation feelings and actions. My ex personally felt, as long as he kept the affairs not physical, he was ok. But the process of replacing me as who he confided and shared with, (and badmouthing me) was really the thing that eroded  and ended the marriage. The physical part just brought clarity.  That's why I was telling the op he may be treading into dangerous waters, bc emotional affairs can be very damaging to a relationship.

Yeah, that makes sense.  It sounds more like the problem is not the 'emotional affair' . . . it is in cutting you out emotionally and badmouthing you.  If your ex had an extremely close emotional relationship with someone while being respectful and loving/open with you the whole time, you probably would have continued to be happy, right?

Yeah, it's not just any close emotional relationship. An affair crosses the line into romantic territory or it at least blurs the line at the expense of one's spouse. I see it as shorthand for conduct that sets the groundwork for a physical affair or would be seen as "courting" if the participants were single.

yeah. The first one, she was in a book club he was in with mix group of friends. I am a huge booklover and he spec excluded me from joining that group. And he was doing stuff like exchanging books, making mix tapes, keeping in touch during the day, things he used to do with me but stopped.

[StarBright]

I have very few close personal friends.  With those I do have though, I'd say that we maintain a similar level of emotional intimacy/intensity as with my wife.  I talk openly about any topic with close friends, just as I would with my spouse.  Neither my wife nor I have ever had a problem with this, but we have a pretty strong relationship.

I think it is like the old saying "I know it when I see it" :)

I have male friends that I have travelled with, hang out with and have a blast with with no weird undercurrents. And I have had a friendship that felt like more, and so, because I love my husband, I backed off that friendship.

OP's use of "intense" and the fact that he is asking both waived a flag for me.

I also used to run around with a lot of performer and creative types (actors and composers and the like) and the bonding that came of short, work intense periods, where you were often deeply vibing on your shared creative passions created an environment for A LOT of affairs. So the whole "feeds my creative energy" comment also pinged my spidey senses.

My lens was definitely primed to read OP's post as a warning.

[partgypsy]

Yes I also andi think most have a "I know it when I see it" sense. Of knowing what is cool and what is not cool in a relationship. Good on Op to do a head check.

[Dee18]

My sister has  a very, very close friendship with a man she has known since college.  She also is happily married.  The only way it has worked is that once she got married she included her husband in get togethers so they also became friends, although not as close.  I think that is the key.  If it is a friendship then interact with all 4 adults at least some of the time. And ask yourself if you were not married and she was not married would you want to date her?  If the answer is yes, you need to be a lot more careful than if the answer is no. 

[Nick_Miller]

Yes I also andi think most have a "I know it when I see it" sense. Of knowing what is cool and what is not cool in a relationship. Good on Op to do a head check.

I appreciate that last part especially. I was nervous to post this. I didn't want folks to think badly of me. Similar to what another poster said, I have done my best to not act in ways that could f* up my life. I just needed to get this out in a non-judgmental, private environment.

I've always been faithful to my wife, she is awesome, we are maturing together as a couple and constantly chatting about what life sans work/sans kids will look like for us down the road. We had a 'dry spell' during the Covid period where I think we both felt blah and there were fewer options to seek for date nights, but I think we have bounced back pretty well from that. I have neither the interest nor, frankly, the energy, to chase after women who are not my wife.

But what @Dee18 said rang true with me. If I was single and my friend was single, yes I would want to date her. I think realizing that is the main reason I want to tread appropriately here. On one hand I feel it's weird, like, "Sorry, you are too awesome to be my friend, I might not be able to handle it, and I am awesome too, and you might not be able to handle it. If you were less clever, less attractive, then sure we could hang no problem, but that's not the case."  I mean, it does seem weird when you phrase it like that, but ultimately I guess that's what it is.

On the other hand, I have thought since I've been married that I should do whatever it takes (within reason) to protect my relationship with my wife. In many ways, it's her and me against the world, and I wouldn't want to do anything that would make her question that.

[Villanelle]

I'd start with a very candid conversation with my spouse, asking if there are any concerns at all, or what kinds of things might be concerns.  I'd give him a chance to set some boundaries.

Also, I firmly believe very, very few people set out to cheat or are okay with cheating as a blind concept, and yet so many people do end up having affairs.  IMO, part of the reason that happens is precisely because they think they will never cheat.  "Cheaters are assholes, I'm not a cheater and I love and respect my spouse, so I'd never cheat."  That means they never think about it as part of their world, which means when things start crossing lines, very gradually, they think nothing of it.  And inch by inch, they move forward, until they are so involved in the other relationship that physical cheating takes only the tiniest of nudges.  And they may already be having what might be considered an emotional affair.

That doesn't mean I don't think men and women can have meaningful, close friendship.  I think it just means that close friendships with someone of a sex/gender to which are are attracted require some background vigilance.  Set some very firm boundaries for yourself that you will never, ever cross.  Check in periodically and be honest with yourself about whether it is starting to feel different than if would be a friendship with a same-sex person (assuming you are only attracted to the opposite sex/gender).  Self-patrol your actions, in an honest, self-aware way and adjust as need, early on before things can go too far.  Maybe it will never get to that point, but checking in frequently can assure that. 

[charis]

I'd start with a very candid conversation with my spouse, asking if there are any concerns at all, or what kinds of things might be concerns.  I'd give him a chance to set some boundaries.

This sounds like you are putting the onus on the spouse who is not in involved the outside relationship and has no reason to be concerned or is unaware of any reason to be concerned.   I think it's definitely the responsibility of the OP to set his own boundaries first, with respect to his current outside relationships as well as have a frank conversation with his spouse about how they will navigate these issues as a team and individually.

[Villanelle]

I'd start with a very candid conversation with my spouse, asking if there are any concerns at all, or what kinds of things might be concerns.  I'd give him a chance to set some boundaries.

This sounds like you are putting the onus on the spouse who is not in involved the outside relationship and has no reason to be concerned or is unaware of any reason to be concerned.   I think it's definitely the responsibility of the OP to set his own boundaries first, with respect to his current outside relationships as well as have a frank conversation with his spouse about how they will navigate these issues as a team and individually.

I don't think that's what I'm doing at all.  I think I'm asking that spouse to share any concerns they might have, of which I might not be aware.  It sounds like the OP has set boundaries and is asking about anything else they might need to do or consider, so I was imagining a conversation with the spouse that started with those, and where things currently stand, and then asking if they have anything additional that they want to contribute.  To me, that is exactly "navigating this as a team", because without that, the spouse may have a specific need or concern of which the "friend spouse" isn't aware, and thus can't honor or respect.  Opening a door to input and feedback isn't putting the onus on someone else.  It's making sure that person is heard.

[charis]

I'd start with a very candid conversation with my spouse, asking if there are any concerns at all, or what kinds of things might be concerns.  I'd give him a chance to set some boundaries.

This sounds like you are putting the onus on the spouse who is not in involved the outside relationship and has no reason to be concerned or is unaware of any reason to be concerned.   I think it's definitely the responsibility of the OP to set his own boundaries first, with respect to his current outside relationships as well as have a frank conversation with his spouse about how they will navigate these issues as a team and individually.

I don't think that's what I'm doing at all.  I think I'm asking that spouse to share any concerns they might have, of which I might not be aware.  It sounds like the OP has set boundaries and is asking about anything else they might need to do or consider, so I was imagining a conversation with the spouse that started with those, and where things currently stand, and then asking if they have anything additional that they want to contribute.  To me, that is exactly "navigating this as a team", because without that, the spouse may have a specific need or concern of which the "friend spouse" isn't aware, and thus can't honor or respect.  Opening a door to input and feedback isn't putting the onus on someone else.  It's making sure that person is heard.

I certainly agree that the conversation needs to happen, I was just pointing out that the OP needs to start by sharing his concerns and his boundaries before asking his spouse her concerns about a relationship that she probably doesn't have much insight into yet. I may have misinterpreted your comment, but that's how it came across to me, looking at it from the spouse's perspective.

[Imma]

Yes I also andi think most have a "I know it when I see it" sense. Of knowing what is cool and what is not cool in a relationship. Good on Op to do a head check.

I appreciate that last part especially. I was nervous to post this. I didn't want folks to think badly of me. Similar to what another poster said, I have done my best to not act in ways that could f* up my life. I just needed to get this out in a non-judgmental, private environment.

I've always been faithful to my wife, she is awesome, we are maturing together as a couple and constantly chatting about what life sans work/sans kids will look like for us down the road. We had a 'dry spell' during the Covid period where I think we both felt blah and there were fewer options to seek for date nights, but I think we have bounced back pretty well from that. I have neither the interest nor, frankly, the energy, to chase after women who are not my wife.

But what @Dee18 said rang true with me. If I was single and my friend was single, yes I would want to date her. I think realizing that is the main reason I want to tread appropriately here. On one hand I feel it's weird, like, "Sorry, you are too awesome to be my friend, I might not be able to handle it, and I am awesome too, and you might not be able to handle it. If you were less clever, less attractive, then sure we could hang no problem, but that's not the case."  I mean, it does seem weird when you phrase it like that, but ultimately I guess that's what it is.

On the other hand, I have thought since I've been married that I should do whatever it takes (within reason) to protect my relationship with my wife. In many ways, it's her and me against the world, and I wouldn't want to do anything that would make her question that.

I think this is what is dangerous. You are faithful and you love your wife, that's clear from your posts, but this is a risky thing, especially if at some point into your marriage you might develop some sort of issues. In that kind of situation, instead of working through it like you've done in the past, there's a real risk of developing feelings and falling in love.

Both my partner and I have long-term, close friends of the sex that we are attracted to. I think what makes those friendships work is that 1. our partners (and our friend's partners) are 100% completely aware of the friendship, the history of our friendship, we've included partners and we'd all be totally fine if our partners read all of our texts. There's nothing to hide.
And 2. is that we are all completely unattracted to each other in a romantic sense. Even during periods of our lives when both parties were single and actively looking for dates or sexual partners, we didn't do that and wouldn't want to do that. Under no circumstances could those friendships develop into something else.

[Tasse]

My closest in-person friend for the last six years is a man. I've been reading this thread with interest because our friendship violates several of the rules people have proposed. My friend and I were housemates for many years, including several during which my boyfriend and I were long-distance. Because of that distance, I spent/spend plenty of time alone with my friend, including stuff that might seem date-like (getting dinner, watching movies on the couch together). We've discussed issues with my approximately-in-laws and feelings about my relationship. I've been leaning on him a lot in the absence of my partner, who is currently out of state caring for an ill relative.

But the big difference pointed out in the last few posts is that my friend and I have absolutely zero romantic interest in each other. I would not want to date him even if we were both single. We would not make good partners, and we describe our relationship as closer to sibling-like. (And for the record, he and my boyfriend are also friends and we all hang out together when possible. It's just often impossible.)

So yeah, another voice to listen to your gut.

ETA: Although we are not married, my boyfriend and I have been together for over ten years.

[LonerMatt]

This must be a generational thing. I have so many close female friends - and my gf often likes them more than my guy friends! It's great, they're great. Yeah I'd probably hit on a few of these people if I were single, but also probably not. It's always easier to imagine something than do it, also I'm not single, so it doesn't really matter. If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.

Sounds like your wife is chill but you're stressed. Take her lead.

[Phenix]

As many others have stated, don't discuss marital issues with this close friend, but I'll take it one step further. Never find yourself one-on-one with this close friend of the opposite sex (especially if there's alcohol consumption) when you and your wife have an unresolved issue or a recently resolved issue. I've had two friends find themselves in an affair with a close female friend that they confided in during a spat with their spouse. Both instances involved alcohol and both guys thought the relationship was platonic. Both of them reconciled with their wives and are still married. My one friend immediately quit his job as his affair was with his supervisor and the other put in for a reassignment as his affair was with a coworker. Neither of them intended for it to happen, but quickly found themselves in bad positions.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I've always been faithful to my wife, she is awesome, we are maturing together as a couple and constantly chatting about what life sans work/sans kids will look like for us down the road. We had a 'dry spell' during the Covid period where I think we both felt blah and there were fewer options to seek for date nights, but I think we have bounced back pretty well from that. I have neither the interest nor, frankly, the energy, to chase after women who are not my wife.

But what @Dee18 said rang true with me. If I was single and my friend was single, yes I would want to date her. I think realizing that is the main reason I want to tread appropriately here. On one hand I feel it's weird, like, "Sorry, you are too awesome to be my friend, I might not be able to handle it, and I am awesome too, and you might not be able to handle it. If you were less clever, less attractive, then sure we could hang no problem, but that's not the case."  I mean, it does seem weird when you phrase it like that, but ultimately I guess that's what it is.

Others mentioned specific topics to avoid, but look at the impression you already have, without touching on those topics.  I think restricted topics are a false sense of security, here.  You should avoid criticising your spouse, but I wouldn't consider things safe just because you follow that approach.  I've known when people were interested in me (or not) without ever talking about anything relevant to relationships.

Am I correct in saying this project is your joint creation?  I would avoid calling the project your "baby", based on the undercurrent of how babies are made.  Yet I think some of your tension is helping fuel the project - that you put more effort in because of it.  Another thing that's easy to lose is your excitement with the work itself, even if you worked on this with someone else.  By keeping this professional, you're also keeping on track to do similar joint projects.  You could get more future satisfaction out of doing projects like this.

Random idea I got: as you accomplish things together on the joint project, who can you share that with?  Your spouse won't have 100% excitement every day... what if you paid a psychologist just to listen to you talk about how well your work is going?  That way you don't share the excitement with just your work partner, but spread it over several people.  I suspect some of the respect you have for your work partner actually comes from validating your own work on the project.  Spreading that around might help you see it.

[Sibley]

A side comment but I didn't see it mentioned. Just because a person has some potential/real attraction to another person doesn't mean that the second person feels the same. It is egotistical and insulting to that second person to assume that of course they must be attracted to the first person.

So, can men and women be friends? Yes. Are there lots of cases where one party screws up the friendship because they can't get their brains out of the genitals? Also yes.

[Imma]

A side comment but I didn't see it mentioned. Just because a person has some potential/real attraction to another person doesn't mean that the second person feels the same. It is egotistical and insulting to that second person to assume that of course they must be attracted to the first person.

So, can men and women be friends? Yes. Are there lots of cases where one party screws up the friendship because they can't get their brains out of the genitals? Also yes.

I didn't mean to imply that someone I'm attracted to would automatically be attracted to me as well. But it wouldn't work for me to have a friendship where there's a one-sided (or two-sided) attraction in the background. In fact I did once distance myself from someone because they had developed romantic feelings for me and I didn't feel that. Even though my friend did not do anything inappropriate at all, my friend is a good person that I still trust completely. I still consider them my friend, but I did put some distance between us because it made the friendship feel unequal to me.

[GuitarStv]

. . . but I'm quite a catch!  At least my mom has always said so.

[Hall11235]

Many good responses here.

I will second the trust your gut suggestion. As Buddha says, "if there is doubt, there is no doubt." If you are questioning what is too much, you likely have already gone a tad too far.

In my own life, I know that I have trouble with platonic relations with the opposite sex (I tend to feel romantic feelings quite easily and quickly), so I try to avoid any that don't significantly include my DW.

I know that this reduces my happiness potential by limiting the people I can form close relationships with, but I know myself, and the best self-defense is to just not be there. :)