Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[jinga nation]

Once you go fully renewable for your electricity (like I did), the how much you drive is irrelevant.  You've broken the cycle. 

I think this attitude is the most problematic thing about EV cars.  Its NOT irrelevant.  If you're driving more, you're increasing traffic, which makes municipalities tailor their infrastructure towards cars even more and that's usually at the expense of more sustainable transportation.  You're putting wear on the road.  You're putting wear on your tires.  You're putting wear on your suspension components.  All of these things that wear need to be produced somewhere from some things, driving up general consumption. 

I think EV cars are better than gas cars for the most part, but adding more cars of any type to the world is a move in the wrong direction.

I disagree.  More driving, especially for mid range road trips, means less airplane flights which is absolutely an improvement.  And I think once full autonomy becomes a thing we'll see this play out even more.

Driving somewhere can contribute less emissions than flying to that same place, but not driving OR flying is even better. There is no evidence that more cars on the road leads to less flying.

Cars & driving have many other negative impacts to the environment than direct CO2 emissions:
- Pollution from tire dust
- Huge cost of building, widening, and maintaining roads
- Traffic violence (40,000 people killed per year in the US)
- Healthcare costs due to sedentary lifestyles
- Antisocial cultural behaviors and breakdown of communities

EV cars also require mining of rare earth metals which, again, is bad for the environment.

Autonomous cars will not solve any of these issues.

So you're saying people just shouldn't travel at all?  You know back when I was on the right, I thought THEY were puritanical.  But now that I'm on the left, the left is even worse.

WTFF?

Puritanical Right: You aren't allowed to have any alternative thoughts! Evidence and facts not welcome.
Left: You're welcome to have alternative thoughts and debate them. Evidence and facts required.

How is the left worse than the right? And how the heck did this thread get political so fast?

[Tyson]

Once you go fully renewable for your electricity (like I did), the how much you drive is irrelevant.  You've broken the cycle. 

I think this attitude is the most problematic thing about EV cars.  Its NOT irrelevant.  If you're driving more, you're increasing traffic, which makes municipalities tailor their infrastructure towards cars even more and that's usually at the expense of more sustainable transportation.  You're putting wear on the road.  You're putting wear on your tires.  You're putting wear on your suspension components.  All of these things that wear need to be produced somewhere from some things, driving up general consumption. 

I think EV cars are better than gas cars for the most part, but adding more cars of any type to the world is a move in the wrong direction.

I disagree.  More driving, especially for mid range road trips, means less airplane flights which is absolutely an improvement.  And I think once full autonomy becomes a thing we'll see this play out even more.

Driving somewhere can contribute less emissions than flying to that same place, but not driving OR flying is even better. There is no evidence that more cars on the road leads to less flying.

Cars & driving have many other negative impacts to the environment than direct CO2 emissions:
- Pollution from tire dust
- Huge cost of building, widening, and maintaining roads
- Traffic violence (40,000 people killed per year in the US)
- Healthcare costs due to sedentary lifestyles
- Antisocial cultural behaviors and breakdown of communities

EV cars also require mining of rare earth metals which, again, is bad for the environment.

Autonomous cars will not solve any of these issues.

So you're saying people just shouldn't travel at all?  You know back when I was on the right, I thought THEY were puritanical.  But now that I'm on the left, the left is even worse.

WTFF?

Puritanical Right: You aren't allowed to have any alternative thoughts! Evidence and facts not welcome.
Left: You're welcome to have alternative thoughts and debate them. Evidence and facts required.

How is the left worse than the right? And how the heck did this thread get political so fast?

This thread has always been political, just go back and read it's been interwoven throughout.  EV's are an inherently political topic.  And yes, the right is absolutely terrible it's why I left them in the first place.

But the left?  The left are fucking scolds.  They hold you up to some purity standards of absolute perfection and then try to shame you if you don't meet it.  Fuck that.

[jinga nation]

Your USA "Left" isn't a real Left per world standards.

And yes, perfection is the enemy of progress.

But dude, why are you getting so worked up by some keyboard warrior output on these forums?

I don't take anything from these boards personally. To each their own. Everyone's allowed to have opinions.

ICE vehicles are also a very political topic, but can also be an enthusiast topic.

[GuitarStv]

Once you go fully renewable for your electricity (like I did), the how much you drive is irrelevant.  You've broken the cycle. 

I think this attitude is the most problematic thing about EV cars.  Its NOT irrelevant.  If you're driving more, you're increasing traffic, which makes municipalities tailor their infrastructure towards cars even more and that's usually at the expense of more sustainable transportation.  You're putting wear on the road.  You're putting wear on your tires.  You're putting wear on your suspension components.  All of these things that wear need to be produced somewhere from some things, driving up general consumption. 

I think EV cars are better than gas cars for the most part, but adding more cars of any type to the world is a move in the wrong direction.

I disagree.  More driving, especially for mid range road trips, means less airplane flights which is absolutely an improvement.  And I think once full autonomy becomes a thing we'll see this play out even more.

Driving somewhere can contribute less emissions than flying to that same place, but not driving OR flying is even better. There is no evidence that more cars on the road leads to less flying.

Cars & driving have many other negative impacts to the environment than direct CO2 emissions:
- Pollution from tire dust
- Huge cost of building, widening, and maintaining roads
- Traffic violence (40,000 people killed per year in the US)
- Healthcare costs due to sedentary lifestyles
- Antisocial cultural behaviors and breakdown of communities

EV cars also require mining of rare earth metals which, again, is bad for the environment.

Autonomous cars will not solve any of these issues.

So you're saying people just shouldn't travel at all?  You know back when I was on the right, I thought THEY were puritanical.  But now that I'm on the left, the left is even worse.

Travel shouldn't end entirely, but we should be moving back towards similar modes of travel which were commonly used in the '20s.  Boats, trains, foot, and bicycle.  Occasional (but rare) car trips.  Exceedingly rare plane trips.

[Tyson]

Your USA "Left" isn't a real Left per world standards.

And yes, perfection is the enemy of progress.

But dude, why are you getting so worked up by some keyboard warrior output on these forums?

I don't take anything from these boards personally. To each their own. Everyone's allowed to have opinions.

ICE vehicles are also a very political topic, but can also be an enthusiast topic.

Because I personally have made substantial improvements in my own life, some of them very expensive changes.  And rather than get acknowledgement or appreciation, I get feedback it's not enough.  So I'm done.  The left can fuck off.  Who knew they had become the party of Karens. 

[Paper Chaser]

EVs encourage and reward consumption. If the financial and environmental benefits are accrued on a per mile basis, then driving more gets you larger benefit. It's like the "buy more to save more" sales tactic that ends up costing more in the long term.
That concept is further augmented with flat yearly fees replacing usage taxes like the gas tax in an ICE. There's no discouraging consumption. If it costs $XXX/yr to operate a vehicle no matter what, rather than $0.XX/mile, then there's little drawback to driving more.

EV's are great for local air quality since they have no tailpipe emissions. Other benefits are a lot more nebulous, and they certainly aren't going to solve all of our problems. There's no way to fix the root issue without lifestyle change, but lifestyle change is often unappealing (as Tyson is pointing out). Many people are willing to make minor changes to clean up their consumption. Far fewer are willing to make more significant change to meaningfully reduce consumption.

[Tyson]

Consumption is only a problem if you are running everything on oil and gas.  It's not a problem if you switch everything over to renewables. 

And people are never, ever, ever going to reduce their consumption.  And not only that, even if they did, IT WOULDN'T MATTER.  Because we have a ballooning population.  So even if every person reduced their consumption by 50%, it won't matter because population growth outstrips that, easily. 

Austerity is not the answer, it's simply structurally outpaced.  The actual solution is to pivot away from fossil fuels completely. 

[GuitarStv]

Consumption is only a problem if you are running everything on oil and gas.  It's not a problem if you switch everything over to renewables. 

This statement contradicts everything ever observed about the natural world.  A finite universe just cannot support infinite growth.  Either human population needs to drop, or consumption does.  Or some combination of both.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And people are never, ever, ever going to reduce their consumption.  And not only that, even if they did, IT WOULDN'T MATTER.  Because we have a ballooning population.  So even if every person reduced their consumption by 50%, it won't matter because population growth outstrips that, easily.

There has actually been some positive news in this direction recently - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clynq459wxgo, https://www.livescience.com/worlds-population-could-plummet-to-six-billion-by-the-end-of-the-century-new-study-suggests.

Austerity is not the answer, it's simply structurally outpaced.  The actual solution is to pivot away from fossil fuels completely.

Austerity isn't the answer - I agree.  But it's certainly going to be part of any answer in the future that works.  Pivoting away from fossil fuels is also part of the answer.  This is a truly massive problem, and it will need to be attacked on multiple fronts.

[Tyson]

I think we're solving for different problems.  You're solving for resource constraint issues and I am solving for global warming.  It's global warming that's the existential threat and that's what we should be solving for. 

[GuitarStv]

I think we're solving for different problems.  You're solving for resource constraint issues and I am solving for global warming.  It's global warming that's the existential threat and that's what we should be solving for.

I don't see a good way to avoid petroleum products right now.  At least, try as I might I haven't been able to.

You can buy an EV, but there's a butt-ton of petroleum product used in the creation of that vehicle (ranging from fuel used to mine the stuff in the battery to plastic on the trim to the creation of the tires).  It's damned near impossible to buy anything in a modern store without also buying a shroud of plastic to go along with it.  Manufacturers are weaving plastic into more and more of our clothing, but even if you're buying clothes made from a natural material . . . there's the fuel cost associated with production and delivery to you.  This list just goes on and on.

Based on comments, you seem to have this dialed in.  Maybe you can share some of the tips you've used to avoid these petroleum products causing existential threat without changing your consumption?

[Tyson]

I think we're solving for different problems.  You're solving for resource constraint issues and I am solving for global warming.  It's global warming that's the existential threat and that's what we should be solving for.

I don't see a good way to avoid petroleum products right now.  At least, try as I might I haven't been able to.

You can buy an EV, but there's a butt-ton of petroleum product used in the creation of that vehicle (ranging from fuel used to mine the stuff in the battery to plastic on the trim to the creation of the tires).  It's damned near impossible to buy anything in a modern store without also buying a shroud of plastic to go along with it.  Manufacturers are weaving plastic into more and more of our clothing, but even if you're buying clothes made from a natural material . . . there's the fuel cost associated with production and delivery to you.  This list just goes on and on.

Based on comments, you seem to have this dialed in.  Maybe you can share some of the tips you've used to avoid these petroleum products causing existential threat without changing your consumption?

Well it's easy, just don't buy anything.  At least I would imagine that's your solution.  Just go full monk mode and keep your conscience clean.  Everyone else then becomes morally repugnant and you can gleefully shit on them.  Oh wait, you already do.  That's why I have you blocked and generally ignore your posts.  You are a scold and it's no wonder people in the middle don't want to listen to people like you.

As for me, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  I recognize there's a problem and we need to solve it.  I see we have a long way to go.  But I celebrate progress that we make along the way.  I don't yell at people because things aren't perfect yet.  This is the fundamental difference between people like you and people like me.  I see progress and it gives me hope.  You see progress and yell at people "NOT ENOUGH". 

And re: the current use of plastics and petroleum products, I agree we need to change it.  We are in the process.  We're not there yet.  But be will fix it one day.  However, I predict that even after we solve it, you'll just find something else to carp about.  You can't help it, it's in your nature.

[GuitarStv]

I think we're solving for different problems.  You're solving for resource constraint issues and I am solving for global warming.  It's global warming that's the existential threat and that's what we should be solving for.

I don't see a good way to avoid petroleum products right now.  At least, try as I might I haven't been able to.

You can buy an EV, but there's a butt-ton of petroleum product used in the creation of that vehicle (ranging from fuel used to mine the stuff in the battery to plastic on the trim to the creation of the tires).  It's damned near impossible to buy anything in a modern store without also buying a shroud of plastic to go along with it.  Manufacturers are weaving plastic into more and more of our clothing, but even if you're buying clothes made from a natural material . . . there's the fuel cost associated with production and delivery to you.  This list just goes on and on.

Based on comments, you seem to have this dialed in.  Maybe you can share some of the tips you've used to avoid these petroleum products causing existential threat without changing your consumption?

Well it's easy, just don't buy anything.  At least I would imagine that's your solution.  Just go full monk mode and keep your conscience clean.  Everyone else then becomes morally repugnant and you can gleefully shit on them.  Oh wait, you already do.  That's why I have you blocked and generally ignore your posts.  You are a scold and it's no wonder people in the middle don't want to listen to people like you.

As for me, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  I recognize there's a problem and we need to solve it.  I see we have a long way to go.  But I celebrate progress that we make along the way.  I don't yell at people because things aren't perfect yet.  This is the fundamental difference between people like you and people like me.  I see progress and it gives me hope.  You see progress and yell at people "NOT ENOUGH". 

And re: the current use of plastics and petroleum products, I agree we need to change it.  We are in the process.  We're not there yet.  But be will fix it one day.  However, I predict that even after we solve it, you'll just find something else to carp about.  You can't help it, it's in your nature.

We all need to buy things.  We all use plastics - the modern world doesn't function without petroleum products.  It would be great if some new technology came along to remove this dependency.  Until then though, I don't see a reasonable way to really tackle the threat that we both agree is existential without reducing consumption wherever possible.  I was hoping that you had discovered some sort of workaround, as you appeared to be preaching the opposite.

[Tyson]

I think we're solving for different problems.  You're solving for resource constraint issues and I am solving for global warming.  It's global warming that's the existential threat and that's what we should be solving for.

I don't see a good way to avoid petroleum products right now.  At least, try as I might I haven't been able to.

You can buy an EV, but there's a butt-ton of petroleum product used in the creation of that vehicle (ranging from fuel used to mine the stuff in the battery to plastic on the trim to the creation of the tires).  It's damned near impossible to buy anything in a modern store without also buying a shroud of plastic to go along with it.  Manufacturers are weaving plastic into more and more of our clothing, but even if you're buying clothes made from a natural material . . . there's the fuel cost associated with production and delivery to you.  This list just goes on and on.

Based on comments, you seem to have this dialed in.  Maybe you can share some of the tips you've used to avoid these petroleum products causing existential threat without changing your consumption?

Well it's easy, just don't buy anything.  At least I would imagine that's your solution.  Just go full monk mode and keep your conscience clean.  Everyone else then becomes morally repugnant and you can gleefully shit on them.  Oh wait, you already do.  That's why I have you blocked and generally ignore your posts.  You are a scold and it's no wonder people in the middle don't want to listen to people like you.

As for me, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  I recognize there's a problem and we need to solve it.  I see we have a long way to go.  But I celebrate progress that we make along the way.  I don't yell at people because things aren't perfect yet.  This is the fundamental difference between people like you and people like me.  I see progress and it gives me hope.  You see progress and yell at people "NOT ENOUGH". 

And re: the current use of plastics and petroleum products, I agree we need to change it.  We are in the process.  We're not there yet.  But be will fix it one day.  However, I predict that even after we solve it, you'll just find something else to carp about.  You can't help it, it's in your nature.

We all need to buy things.  We all use plastics - the modern world doesn't function without petroleum products.  It would be great if some new technology came along to remove this dependency.  Until then though, I don't see a reasonable way to really tackle the threat that we both agree is existential without reducing consumption wherever possible.  I was hoping that you had discovered some sort of workaround, as you appeared to be preaching the opposite.

Practically here's some of the things I'm doing - I bought re-usable cloth bags for the grocery store, and I use them.  I also tend to buy things in bulk when I can.  I have switched over to glass for food storage and also when I buy bubbly water, I buy the ones in glass bottles.  For water filters I got rid of the brita because it was plastic and had to be replaced fairly frequently.  I got an RO filter that sits under my sink instead.  I never use plastic cups, only glass for stuff in the house and metal for travel.  No straws, ever.  I don't buy much in the way of clothes because I tend to wear them till they completely wear out.  I drive my car quite non-aggressively so the tires last longer.  Also I never sell my cars.  I buy them and then use them until I run them in to the ground.  Not that I drive very much anymore because I work from home 100% of the time. 

I didn't mention any of this before because I figured it was all common sense type changes and most people would have already made them.  But if you haven't, then they are some things you can do. 

[neo von retorch]

There have been thread after thread debating consumerism.

And Car-free communities.

And a MMM post about the environment.

And an entire thread dedicated to environmental impact (1848 posts, 37 pages).

So unless you're trying to solve how quickly electric cars are becoming popular here in the United States, I'm not sure you're "on topic" in this "off topic" thread....

[GuitarStv]

I think we're solving for different problems.  You're solving for resource constraint issues and I am solving for global warming.  It's global warming that's the existential threat and that's what we should be solving for.

I don't see a good way to avoid petroleum products right now.  At least, try as I might I haven't been able to.

You can buy an EV, but there's a butt-ton of petroleum product used in the creation of that vehicle (ranging from fuel used to mine the stuff in the battery to plastic on the trim to the creation of the tires).  It's damned near impossible to buy anything in a modern store without also buying a shroud of plastic to go along with it.  Manufacturers are weaving plastic into more and more of our clothing, but even if you're buying clothes made from a natural material . . . there's the fuel cost associated with production and delivery to you.  This list just goes on and on.

Based on comments, you seem to have this dialed in.  Maybe you can share some of the tips you've used to avoid these petroleum products causing existential threat without changing your consumption?

Well it's easy, just don't buy anything.  At least I would imagine that's your solution.  Just go full monk mode and keep your conscience clean.  Everyone else then becomes morally repugnant and you can gleefully shit on them.  Oh wait, you already do.  That's why I have you blocked and generally ignore your posts.  You are a scold and it's no wonder people in the middle don't want to listen to people like you.

As for me, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  I recognize there's a problem and we need to solve it.  I see we have a long way to go.  But I celebrate progress that we make along the way.  I don't yell at people because things aren't perfect yet.  This is the fundamental difference between people like you and people like me.  I see progress and it gives me hope.  You see progress and yell at people "NOT ENOUGH". 

And re: the current use of plastics and petroleum products, I agree we need to change it.  We are in the process.  We're not there yet.  But be will fix it one day.  However, I predict that even after we solve it, you'll just find something else to carp about.  You can't help it, it's in your nature.

We all need to buy things.  We all use plastics - the modern world doesn't function without petroleum products.  It would be great if some new technology came along to remove this dependency.  Until then though, I don't see a reasonable way to really tackle the threat that we both agree is existential without reducing consumption wherever possible.  I was hoping that you had discovered some sort of workaround, as you appeared to be preaching the opposite.

Practically here's some of the things I'm doing - I bought re-usable cloth bags for the grocery store, and I use them.  I also tend to buy things in bulk when I can.  I have switched over to glass for food storage and also when I buy bubbly water, I buy the ones in glass bottles.  For water filters I got rid of the brita because it was plastic and had to be replaced fairly frequently.  I got an RO filter that sits under my sink instead.  I never use plastic cups, only glass for stuff in the house and metal for travel.  No straws, ever.  I don't buy much in the way of clothes because I tend to wear them till they completely wear out.  I drive my car quite non-aggressively so the tires last longer.  Also I never sell my cars.  I buy them and then use them until I run them in to the ground.  Not that I drive very much anymore because I work from home 100% of the time. 

I didn't mention any of this before because I figured it was all common sense type changes and most people would have already made them.  But if you haven't, then they are some things you can do.

Yeah, these are all basic common sense things that every person should be doing.

So what exactly are you railing against when people talk about reducing consumerism?  You mentioned not buying clothes very often and wearing what you have until it gets threadbare.  This feels like it contradicts other stuff you said:

And people are never, ever, ever going to reduce their consumption.  And not only that, even if they did, IT WOULDN'T MATTER.

Well, you have reduced consumption.  Surely you must recognize there's some benefit if you're doing it yourself?





Then there was this back and forth:

Previously there was also a series of comments where you mentioned that you thought fully autonomous cars would be good for the environment somehow.  Someone responded that

Once you go fully renewable for your electricity (like I did), the how much you drive is irrelevant.  You've broken the cycle. 

I think this attitude is the most problematic thing about EV cars.  Its NOT irrelevant.  If you're driving more, you're increasing traffic, which makes municipalities tailor their infrastructure towards cars even more and that's usually at the expense of more sustainable transportation.  You're putting wear on the road.  You're putting wear on your tires.  You're putting wear on your suspension components.  All of these things that wear need to be produced somewhere from some things, driving up general consumption. 

I think EV cars are better than gas cars for the most part, but adding more cars of any type to the world is a move in the wrong direction.

I disagree.  More driving, especially for mid range road trips, means less airplane flights which is absolutely an improvement.  And I think once full autonomy becomes a thing we'll see this play out even more.

Driving somewhere can contribute less emissions than flying to that same place, but not driving OR flying is even better. There is no evidence that more cars on the road leads to less flying.

Cars & driving have many other negative impacts to the environment than direct CO2 emissions:
- Pollution from tire dust
- Huge cost of building, widening, and maintaining roads
- Traffic violence (40,000 people killed per year in the US)
- Healthcare costs due to sedentary lifestyles
- Antisocial cultural behaviors and breakdown of communities

EV cars also require mining of rare earth metals which, again, is bad for the environment.

Autonomous cars will not solve any of these issues.

So you're saying people just shouldn't travel at all?  You know back when I was on the right, I thought THEY were puritanical.  But now that I'm on the left, the left is even worse.

Travel shouldn't end entirely, but we should be moving back towards similar modes of travel which were commonly used in the '20s.  Boats, trains, foot, and bicycle.  Occasional (but rare) car trips.  Exceedingly rare plane trips.

Going electric and having autonomous vehicles won't magically solve our environmental problems.  It will help a bit with petroleum usage, but won't even be a panacea on that front.  Avoiding unnecessary, frivolous travel . . . and when it's necessary choosing mass travel methods over personal transport will still be necessary.  But again, you also mention how you're not driving much any more.  So are you not in agreement with this?

Your stated actions seem to contradict your stated opinions which is confusing to me.

[Tyson]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

[neo von retorch]

Polestar had some issues / bugs coming out of each of the updates they put out since 3.1.9 and kept delaying releasing it over-the-air (OTA).

But they finally got to a point where they're happy with the stability.

Plus the backup camera software issues became a legal issue / recall!

So I'm finally getting this update from 3.1.9 to 3.6.4 which includes a lot of "improvements", not least of which are Android Auto and HD Radio, and a split-view for cameras. Currently doing the install, estimated at 90 minutes.

[RWD]

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

This seems more applicable to the Stop Burning Stuff thread. But yes, we're electric for all these things except we still have one ICEV which barely gets driven and we're not on a fully renewables plan (but we have solar/batteries and export more than we import so effectively fully renewable anyway).

[RWD]

Polestar had some issues / bugs coming out of each of the updates they put out since 3.1.9 and kept delaying releasing it over-the-air (OTA).

But they finally got to a point where they're happy with the stability.

Plus the backup camera software issues became a legal issue / recall!

So I'm finally getting this update from 3.1.9 to 3.6.4 which includes a lot of "improvements", not least of which are Android Auto and HD Radio, and a split-view for cameras. Currently doing the install, estimated at 90 minutes.

Woot! I hope this fixes some of the issues you've been having.

[Tyson]

Polestar had some issues / bugs coming out of each of the updates they put out since 3.1.9 and kept delaying releasing it over-the-air (OTA).

But they finally got to a point where they're happy with the stability.

Plus the backup camera software issues became a legal issue / recall!

So I'm finally getting this update from 3.1.9 to 3.6.4 which includes a lot of "improvements", not least of which are Android Auto and HD Radio, and a split-view for cameras. Currently doing the install, estimated at 90 minutes.

Woot! I hope this fixes some of the issues you've been having.

This is the way :). I love that OTA updates are becoming a standard for the industry.

[GuitarStv]

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

This seems more applicable to the Stop Burning Stuff thread. But yes, we're electric for all these things except we still have one ICEV which barely gets driven and we're not on a fully renewables plan (but we have solar/batteries and export more than we import so effectively fully renewable anyway).

No, haven't done them all - some don't seem applicable.  We have a drying rack, so haven't ever needed a dryer.  I've never lived anywhere with a fire pit.

I've been debating switching over to an EV, but we honestly don't drive much . . . and our 20 year old Corolla is still working fine.  Studies I've read seem to indicate that making the switch to a new EV would likely be more environmentally damaging for our circumstances.  I've been keeping an eye out for a used one, but there hasn't been much available that seems to make sense.

Our electricity company (Ontario Hydro) doesn't offer a fully renewables plan.  Overall, electricity here is pretty clean - about 50% nuclear and 25% hydro-electric (12% natural gas and no coal).  We have run grid tied solar panels on our roof for more than a decade as well.

We do have a propane grill - something I've wondered about.  Last I checked, they were one of the better ways to grill outside compared to gas or coal, but you're still burning shit.  We tend to use the grill in the summer to avoid building up heat in the house from the stove.  I haven't run the numbers on exactly where the trade-off is there with the increased electricity for A/C.  I do get a bit of a chuckle hearing you tell people that they need austerity on their summer grilling consumption after complaining about all those horrible leftists and their demands of austerity and reduced consumption.  Maybe we've rubbed off on you.  :P

Like you, we haven't switched over to a heat pump yet although we've got the plan to do so in the works.  Here in Toronto it's required that you also have a furnace installed with them which is annoying (although it should run only during the winter when the heat pump can't keep the house warm enough).

[RWD]

Like you, we haven't switched over to a heat pump yet although we've got the plan to do so in the works.  Here in Toronto it's required that you also have a furnace installed with them which is annoying (although it should run only during the winter when the heat pump can't keep the house warm enough).

Are heat strips an option for supplemental heat instead of a furnace? That's what we have.

[GuitarStv]

Like you, we haven't switched over to a heat pump yet although we've got the plan to do so in the works.  Here in Toronto it's required that you also have a furnace installed with them which is annoying (although it should run only during the winter when the heat pump can't keep the house warm enough).

Are heat strips an option for supplemental heat instead of a furnace? That's what we have.

No idea.  They weren't mentioned in the last conversation I had with a heat pump installer.  It's usually pretty mild in winter, but we occasionally get cooler temperatures here . . . it's not unheard of to hit -20 and -30 in Jan.

[Tyson]

Re: a new EV's environmental impact that's easy - just buy a used one.  There's lots of them out there now and some good deals on them pricewise too because depreciation for EV's is in favor of the buyer at the moment. 

Not just that, but you might have incentives to buy a used EV.  Here in CO I know they give you $4k off the price of a used EV.  Not only that, they'll cover 30% of the cost of a garage charger and installation.  There's ways to do it that are fiscally responsible.

[Frugal Lizard]

Like you, we haven't switched over to a heat pump yet although we've got the plan to do so in the works.  Here in Toronto it's required that you also have a furnace installed with them which is annoying (although it should run only during the winter when the heat pump can't keep the house warm enough).

Are heat strips an option for supplemental heat instead of a furnace? That's what we have.

No idea.  They weren't mentioned in the last conversation I had with a heat pump installer.  It's usually pretty mild in winter, but we occasionally get cooler temperatures here . . . it's not unheard of to hit -20 and -30 in Jan.

It is not required to have a combustion back up heating with a heat pump. Our back-up is electrical resistance so the gas meter is pinned shut off. (hot water is air to water heat exchange) One full year in and we haven't needed back up heating. All but one of the installer we got quotes from wanted to sell us a gas furnace / heat pump hybrid. We went with the fully electric 4 ton because that was the goal - to stop burning stuff.* The size of the unit was verified by an HVAC engineer who specializes in fuel switches. His entire fee was covered through a case study program fortunately. The install also involved a number of upgrades to 80% of the ducting and completely new returns. Last winter was the 1st year it was comfortable to watch tv without blankets and the volume cranked to hear over the furnace fans.

* We do still grill with propane occasionally and have an airtight wood burning fireplace insert for special evenings. To avoid heating the kitchen, the porch has a workbench for the dehydrator, instant pot, air fryer, induction burner. And when it is that hot, I don't enjoy firing up the grill any way.

[GuitarStv]

To bring the conversation back to EVs . . . there seem to be many older (2013 - 2017) Nissan Leafs available for sale at reasonable prices near me.  My guess is that most of them are likely to need a battery replacement soonish though.  Battery replacements seem to be crazy expensive (running at about twice the price of buying the used car?).  How complicated is this to DIY and would there be much cost savings in doing so?  How likely are replacement parts going to still be kicking around in another ten years?

My use case (casual occasional driving of a vehicle for 20+ years) seems to be unusual in the general automotive world, where things are lauded as having great longevity for passing eight years.

[GilesMM]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

While laudable, even if every Westerner did all these (quite a stretch goal), it would only impact maybe 1/3 of Western energy consumption as the rest is industrial and commercial users.  And with the rapidly increasing demands for energy (through global development and AI), max amounts of all sources of energy will be needed to meet demand.  It's not that easy to just "electrify" everything and call it a day.

[Tyson]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

While laudable, even if every Westerner did all these (quite a stretch goal), it would only impact maybe 1/3 of Western energy consumption as the rest is industrial and commercial users.  And with the rapidly increasing demands for energy (through global development and AI), max amounts of all sources of energy will be needed to meet demand.  It's not that easy to just "electrify" everything and call it a day.

You're wrong.  In the past, energy was constrained because it was limited to what we could dig up.  Now it can be manufactured.  Literally manufactured.  Therefore we can have as much energy as we want, anywhere we want it, as long as we put in the requisite solar panels (manufactured) wind farms (manufactured), battery storage (manufactured) or nuclear (manufactured).  It's a completely different paradigm of abundance and you're still thinking on the old paradigm of scarcity.

Edit to add - And we are very very lucky that right now solar has gotten so cheap that it is the cheapest means of generating energy in all history.  And prices continue to fall.  Same with batteries and wind.  Already exceedingly cheap and getting cheaper over time. 

[Tyson]

To bring the conversation back to EVs . . . there seem to be many older (2013 - 2017) Nissan Leafs available for sale at reasonable prices near me.  My guess is that most of them are likely to need a battery replacement soonish though.  Battery replacements seem to be crazy expensive (running at about twice the price of buying the used car?).  How complicated is this to DIY and would there be much cost savings in doing so?  How likely are replacement parts going to still be kicking around in another ten years?

My use case (casual occasional driving of a vehicle for 20+ years) seems to be unusual in the general automotive world, where things are lauded as having great longevity for passing eight years.

I'm not an expert on Leaf's but my understanding that the problem with the original leafs were they didn't have optimal battery chemistry and (more importantly) did not have an active battery management system.  So those ran in to problems.  I'd say any leaf with a newer battery and an active BMS should be a good option.  But hopefully someone with more Leaf specific knowledge can speak up here.

[GuitarStv]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

While laudable, even if every Westerner did all these (quite a stretch goal), it would only impact maybe 1/3 of Western energy consumption as the rest is industrial and commercial users.  And with the rapidly increasing demands for energy (through global development and AI), max amounts of all sources of energy will be needed to meet demand.  It's not that easy to just "electrify" everything and call it a day.

You're wrong.  In the past, energy was constrained because it was limited to what we could dig up.  Now it can be manufactured.  Literally manufactured.  Therefore we can have as much energy as we want, anywhere we want it, as long as we put in the requisite solar panels (manufactured) wind farms (manufactured), battery storage (manufactured) or nuclear (manufactured).  It's a completely different paradigm of abundance and you're still thinking on the old paradigm of scarcity.

While it might be possible at some point in the distant future, none of the stuff you're talking about can currently be manufactured without a significant petrochemical input.  But there's also the issue of transporting and storing energy.  For all it's negatives, those squished up dinosaurs were really efficient at that.  Getting power from your solar panels, wind farms, and off shore wave kinetic harvesters to a piece of heavy machinery in a remote mine to dig up the rare earths needed for batteries is far more costly than bringing in a tanker of diesel.

[Tyson]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

While laudable, even if every Westerner did all these (quite a stretch goal), it would only impact maybe 1/3 of Western energy consumption as the rest is industrial and commercial users.  And with the rapidly increasing demands for energy (through global development and AI), max amounts of all sources of energy will be needed to meet demand.  It's not that easy to just "electrify" everything and call it a day.

You're wrong.  In the past, energy was constrained because it was limited to what we could dig up.  Now it can be manufactured.  Literally manufactured.  Therefore we can have as much energy as we want, anywhere we want it, as long as we put in the requisite solar panels (manufactured) wind farms (manufactured), battery storage (manufactured) or nuclear (manufactured).  It's a completely different paradigm of abundance and you're still thinking on the old paradigm of scarcity.

While it might be possible at some point in the distant future, none of the stuff you're talking about can currently be manufactured without a significant petrochemical input.

In the short term, yes.  There's no other way to break the cycle. 

Or are you advocating we keep burning oil and gas and never make the switch?

[GuitarStv]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

While laudable, even if every Westerner did all these (quite a stretch goal), it would only impact maybe 1/3 of Western energy consumption as the rest is industrial and commercial users.  And with the rapidly increasing demands for energy (through global development and AI), max amounts of all sources of energy will be needed to meet demand.  It's not that easy to just "electrify" everything and call it a day.

You're wrong.  In the past, energy was constrained because it was limited to what we could dig up.  Now it can be manufactured.  Literally manufactured.  Therefore we can have as much energy as we want, anywhere we want it, as long as we put in the requisite solar panels (manufactured) wind farms (manufactured), battery storage (manufactured) or nuclear (manufactured).  It's a completely different paradigm of abundance and you're still thinking on the old paradigm of scarcity.

While it might be possible at some point in the distant future, none of the stuff you're talking about can currently be manufactured without a significant petrochemical input.

In the short term, yes.  There's no other way to break the cycle. 

Or are you advocating we keep burning oil and gas and never make the switch?

No, of course not.  But I'm saying that your 'unlimited energy' optimism is . . . well, optimistic rather than realistic.  It may come to pass at some point, but we're nowhere near there today.  And it's entirely possible that it won't come to pass, in which case we'll need to rely (to a greater or lesser degree) on the conservation that everyone with an understanding of our current situation recommends.

[Tyson]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

While laudable, even if every Westerner did all these (quite a stretch goal), it would only impact maybe 1/3 of Western energy consumption as the rest is industrial and commercial users.  And with the rapidly increasing demands for energy (through global development and AI), max amounts of all sources of energy will be needed to meet demand.  It's not that easy to just "electrify" everything and call it a day.

You're wrong.  In the past, energy was constrained because it was limited to what we could dig up.  Now it can be manufactured.  Literally manufactured.  Therefore we can have as much energy as we want, anywhere we want it, as long as we put in the requisite solar panels (manufactured) wind farms (manufactured), battery storage (manufactured) or nuclear (manufactured).  It's a completely different paradigm of abundance and you're still thinking on the old paradigm of scarcity.

While it might be possible at some point in the distant future, none of the stuff you're talking about can currently be manufactured without a significant petrochemical input.

In the short term, yes.  There's no other way to break the cycle. 

Or are you advocating we keep burning oil and gas and never make the switch?

No, of course not.  But I'm saying that your 'unlimited energy' optimism is . . . well, optimistic rather than realistic.  It may come to pass at some point, but we're nowhere near there today.  And it's entirely possible that it won't come to pass, in which case we'll need to rely (to a greater or lesser degree) on the conservation that everyone with an understanding of our current situation recommends.

Of course I agree with you.  We are nowhere near this today.  But what I am saying is we will NEVER get there in the future if we don't start taking action on it ourselves, TODAY.  The good news is we can. 

And here's some other good news, we're moving faster than even I thought we would.  Recently I checked to see where we were with renewable generation here in CO, because we're also a big oil state and I expected at best to be around 20%.  And I was way wrong.  I checked on the mix right now and we're over 40%.  WTF??? That's crazy and awesome.  So things are moving meaningfully already.  I know I was shocked but there it is.

[RWD]

To bring the conversation back to EVs . . . there seem to be many older (2013 - 2017) Nissan Leafs available for sale at reasonable prices near me.  My guess is that most of them are likely to need a battery replacement soonish though.  Battery replacements seem to be crazy expensive (running at about twice the price of buying the used car?).  How complicated is this to DIY and would there be much cost savings in doing so?  How likely are replacement parts going to still be kicking around in another ten years?

My use case (casual occasional driving of a vehicle for 20+ years) seems to be unusual in the general automotive world, where things are lauded as having great longevity for passing eight years.

I'm not an expert on Leaf's but my understanding that the problem with the original leafs were they didn't have optimal battery chemistry and (more importantly) did not have an active battery management system.  So those ran in to problems.  I'd say any leaf with a newer battery and an active BMS should be a good option.  But hopefully someone with more Leaf specific knowledge can speak up here.

Battery swap on the original LEAFs is supposed to be pretty straight forward, maybe a day's work. One cool thing about the LEAF is the larger capacity batteries from newer models fit in the older ones. So you could theoretically have double the range as it was when new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZxX8IbVC4g

[VanillaGorilla]

While noble, it's pretty optimistic to think that if all consumers switch their personal appliances to electric equivalents then we can collectively mitigate greenhouse gas emissions. That seems a little like arguing that if we all bring our grocery bags to the store and quit using single-use plastic bags we'll save the world.

Petrochemicals are literally everywhere. We pave our streets with petroleum, we shingle our roofs with it. We fix more nitrogen via the Haber Process than every plant on the planet does naturally. We use petroleum to grow feed so every person can eat a pound of beef per day. Every time a consumer switches to an electric stove Facebook builds another AI data center that uses an entire city's worth of electricity to generate deepfake nudes and AI emojis.

Every rich techbro who buys an EV to fix climate change then turns around and books a roundtrip flight to Iceland for a weekend getaway, which emits more CO2 than driving even the worst personal vehicle for a year.

There's simply no way that humanity is going to reduce their energy consumption. We will use every last watt from every last source, and when we've finally exhausted one source we'll move on to the next.

Everybody spending all their money on EVs and water heaters will simply not move the needle. My apologies for being pessimistic, but my optimism died a long time ago - sometime when I realized that nobody would even try to eat less steak.

[Tyson]

While noble, it's pretty optimistic to think that if all consumers switch their personal appliances to electric equivalents then we can collectively mitigate greenhouse gas emissions. That seems a little like arguing that if we all bring our grocery bags to the store and quit using single-use plastic bags we'll save the world.

Petrochemicals are literally everywhere. We pave our streets with petroleum, we shingle our roofs with it. We fix more nitrogen via the Haber Process than every plant on the planet does naturally. We use petroleum to grow feed so every person can eat a pound of beef per day. Every time a consumer switches to an electric stove Facebook builds another AI data center that uses an entire city's worth of electricity to generate deepfake nudes and AI emojis.

Every rich techbro who buys an EV to fix climate change then turns around and books a roundtrip flight to Iceland for a weekend getaway, which emits more CO2 than driving even the worst personal vehicle for a year.

There's simply no way that humanity is going to reduce their energy consumption. We will use every last watt from every last source, and when we've finally exhausted one source we'll move on to the next.

Everybody spending all their money on EVs and water heaters will simply not move the needle. My apologies for being pessimistic, but my optimism died a long time ago - sometime when I realized that nobody would even try to eat less steak.

That's not true, I eat less steak and more chicken/fish/pork. 

Here's the problem with pessimists - they say 'there's no perfect solution RIGHT NOW, so I'm not going to do anything because what's the point?"  I can tell you with certainty that that sort of learned helplessness will certainly result in much worse outcomes than if you actually did all the things possible in your own life. 

[VanillaGorilla]

That's not true, I eat less steak and more chicken/fish/pork. 

Here's the problem with pessimists - they say 'there's no perfect solution RIGHT NOW, so I'm not going to do anything because what's the point?"  I can tell you with certainty that that sort of learned helplessness will certainly result in much worse outcomes than if you actually did all the things possible in your own life.

Sure, and it's nice to at least try to do your part. I eat a lot of tofu, own an EV and a hybrid.

However, a quick google search suggests that a single international flight emits roughly as much carbon as my household consumes in a year. Moving my appliances to electricity is not going to meaningfully impact my personal carbon footprint. Following the pareto principle, I should cut my air travel to have a meaningful effect.

[Tyson]

That's not true, I eat less steak and more chicken/fish/pork. 

Here's the problem with pessimists - they say 'there's no perfect solution RIGHT NOW, so I'm not going to do anything because what's the point?"  I can tell you with certainty that that sort of learned helplessness will certainly result in much worse outcomes than if you actually did all the things possible in your own life.

Sure, and it's nice to at least try to do your part. I eat a lot of tofu, own an EV and a hybrid.

However, a quick google search suggests that a single international flight emits roughly as much carbon as my household consumes in a year. Moving my appliances to electricity is not going to meaningfully impact my personal carbon footprint. Following the pareto principle, I should cut my air travel to have a meaningful effect.

One other thing I know that happens with me - I see that I make a change and then I don't see others in my life/world making similar changes and there's a very embedded response that makes me want to throw up my hands and give up because 'what's the point?'.  But I also know that it's important to keep on with the change, even if other's aren't doing it yet. 

[GilesMM]

snipped for brevity.

We seem to be going in circles.  Also this is an EV thread as someone else pointed out.  So I'll try to keep my reply brief and direct (and hopefully relevant to EV's).  My position is nuanced.  I think global warming is a looming existential threat.  We need to be moving, double time, to get to net zero.  The only way I see that happening is electrify everything and convert all electricity generation.  And leverage things like nuclear or some of the new geothermal tech that's starting to emerges to deal with times/places where renewables won't work. 

There are many very easy, low hanging fruits, that anyone can take to move us toward this, such as:

Switch your gas stove to electric
Switch your gas dryer to electric
Switch your water heater to electric
Switch your AC/Heater to a heat pump
Switch your gas burning car to an EV
Stop using your outside propane grill
Stop using wood for fire pits
Check with your electricity company to see if they have a 'fully renewables' plan you can sign up for

I have done all of them except for the heat pump, which I am active saving up for.  These are all super easy things that everyone should do and especially the obscenely rich people on this forum should already have done.  Have you done them all?

While laudable, even if every Westerner did all these (quite a stretch goal), it would only impact maybe 1/3 of Western energy consumption as the rest is industrial and commercial users.  And with the rapidly increasing demands for energy (through global development and AI), max amounts of all sources of energy will be needed to meet demand.  It's not that easy to just "electrify" everything and call it a day.

You're wrong.  In the past, energy was constrained because it was limited to what we could dig up.  Now it can be manufactured.  Literally manufactured.  Therefore we can have as much energy as we want, anywhere we want it, as long as we put in the requisite solar panels (manufactured) wind farms (manufactured), battery storage (manufactured) or nuclear (manufactured).  It's a completely different paradigm of abundance and you're still thinking on the old paradigm of scarcity.

While it might be possible at some point in the distant future, none of the stuff you're talking about can currently be manufactured without a significant petrochemical input.

In the short term, yes.  There's no other way to break the cycle. 

Or are you advocating we keep burning oil and gas and never make the switch?

In theory oil and gas will replace coal, but global coal production hit another record high in 2024 because coal is cheap and abundant.  Energy transitions take many decades and are expensive.  Most countries are not willing to trade economic growth for cooler climate in the short term.

[NorCal]

While noble, it's pretty optimistic to think that if all consumers switch their personal appliances to electric equivalents then we can collectively mitigate greenhouse gas emissions. That seems a little like arguing that if we all bring our grocery bags to the store and quit using single-use plastic bags we'll save the world.

Petrochemicals are literally everywhere. We pave our streets with petroleum, we shingle our roofs with it. We fix more nitrogen via the Haber Process than every plant on the planet does naturally. We use petroleum to grow feed so every person can eat a pound of beef per day. Every time a consumer switches to an electric stove Facebook builds another AI data center that uses an entire city's worth of electricity to generate deepfake nudes and AI emojis.

Every rich techbro who buys an EV to fix climate change then turns around and books a roundtrip flight to Iceland for a weekend getaway, which emits more CO2 than driving even the worst personal vehicle for a year.

There's simply no way that humanity is going to reduce their energy consumption. We will use every last watt from every last source, and when we've finally exhausted one source we'll move on to the next.

Everybody spending all their money on EVs and water heaters will simply not move the needle. My apologies for being pessimistic, but my optimism died a long time ago - sometime when I realized that nobody would even try to eat less steak.

You're halfway right and halfway wrong.

Most of these new technologies won't take off on their own.  You're absolutely correct.  But they absolutely can succeed with some fairly minor changes to incentives.  It can be carrots or sticks.  The impact is obvious to see when looking at the uptake across various places with different incentive structures.

We need to put an end to hydrocarbons going into the atmosphere.  Absolutely.  There are also many hydrocarbon based products (asphalt, plastics, etc) that are critical to manufacturing, and their emissions impact is quite low compared with some alternatives (steel, cement, etc).  Heck, asphalt is one of the most recycled products in the world.  Those who care about climate change care about the upstream impacts of these products (which are abatable), but don't care have any issue with the products themselves.

The long term success of all of these technologies relies on them claiming a couple percent of market share each year.  Every major technological transition has involved a new technology that gains a bit of new growth each year.  It took the automobile decades to displace horses, and it will take decades for low-emissions technologies to replace incumbents.

I have confidence that we will get there eventually (and way too late), as long as the growth rate for the underlying technologies grows slightly faster than their underlying market.  Lobbying, incentives, consumer choice, and regulation will all eventually follow that growth rate.  Choosing to take part in growing these technologies is key to building traction, and it absolutely makes a difference.  Particularly when you follow the flow of money from these choices. 

Having high-income consumers make these purchases is how these markets start, grow, and position themselves for expansion.  Without the 2008 Tesla Roadster, the 2025 Chevy Equinox would not exist.  Now GM is either the fastest or one of the fastest growing EV brands in the US.

You are also wildly off on your air travel emissions.  A ~7,100 mile flight is about 3.1 tons of emissions.  A 22mpg car traveling 15,000mi/yr is about 7.6 tons of emissions.  An EV traveling 15,000 miles per year at 3mi/kWh is about 2.5 tons of emissions at the US average electricity emissions intensity.  Flight is bad, but not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.  Some of this is my own math, but the coolclimate calculator (https://coolclimate.berkeley.edu/calculator) is a good place to start.

[VanillaGorilla]

You are also wildly off on your air travel emissions.  A ~7,100 mile flight is about 3.1 tons of emissions.  A 22mpg car traveling 15,000mi/yr is about 7.6 tons of emissions.  An EV traveling 15,000 miles per year at 3mi/kWh is about 2.5 tons of emissions at the US average electricity emissions intensity.  Flight is bad, but not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.  Some of this is my own math, but the coolclimate calculator (https://coolclimate.berkeley.edu/calculator) is a good place to start.

That might well be, I did a very crude back of an envelope calculation based on some quick google results. I certainly exaggerated with my vehicular example, though if you put two or more people in your hypothetical 22mpg vehicle then the results shift again.

This discussion is prompting some tracking on my end, which is great - thanks @Tyson for the impetus.

Over the last 12 months my house has consumed nearly 5000kwh of electricity. This includes powering my home as well as our EV. We consumed 220 therms of natural gas (for household appliances), and roughly 10 gallons of gasoline a month for the ICE car. Unless Google AI is feeding me nonsense, that works out to be roughly 3.7 tons of CO2.

In the last twelve months I flew to Europe (for a family emergency), as well as to the east coast twice (two people) and up the west coast (two people). That works out to roughly 35,000 man-miles, or maybe 15 tons of CO2?

So my life in general emitted 4 tons of CO2 and my leisure travel emitted 15 tons. Ergo, my argument that worrying about a water heater or gas grill is a bit misplaced.

And finally, your numbers illustrate another very interesting point - a decently efficient modern hybrid getting 45mpg emits roughly the same carbon as an EV. Simply arguing for the electrification of as many machines as possible is overly simplistic. Maybe the IRS needs to tax everybody on their individual carbon emissions.

[RWD]

You are also wildly off on your air travel emissions.  A ~7,100 mile flight is about 3.1 tons of emissions.  A 22mpg car traveling 15,000mi/yr is about 7.6 tons of emissions.  An EV traveling 15,000 miles per year at 3mi/kWh is about 2.5 tons of emissions at the US average electricity emissions intensity.

And finally, your numbers illustrate another very interesting point - a decently efficient modern hybrid getting 45mpg emits roughly the same carbon as an EV.

Uh, what? Just taking those numbers straight up shows that a 45 mpg vehicle would have a carbon footprint 49% higher than an EV. That's not roughly the same at all! And that's just calculating (22/45) * 7.6 which doesn't take in to account the energy cost of production which becomes more significant the more efficient a vehicle is. According to the IEA's calculator (using 14,710 miles per year and 15 years lifespan) a 45 mpg vehicle would have lifetime carbon impact of ~4.1 tons, which is is 64% higher than the EV above. And it calculates that the EV to be slightly lower at 2.4 tons (I left the energy supply assumptions at the defaults). That would bring the difference up to 69%. And 3 miles per kWh is not very efficient for an EV. The Ioniq 6 has a combined EPA rating of 26 kWh / 100 miles = 3.85 miles / kWh = 2.0 tons carbon annualized. A 45 mpg hybrid is 105% more, literally double. (edit: I actually used non-hybrid in the calculator which has lower carbon footprint than a hybrid for the same efficiency due to lower manufacturing complexity)

And we haven't even gotten in to calculations using the possibility of cleaner energy sources. Our EV is almost entirely charged by our solar array at home, for example. Edit: the calculator has a 98% renewables option, if that is your situation then the 45 mpg car has a lifetime (150k to 220k miles) carbon footprint 3.5X to 4.5X that of the EV.

[Tyson]

I don't understand it.  People on this forum have an obscene amount of money.  They say that they care about climate change.  Why are they not taking some of their ridiculous amount of wealth and putting their money where their mouths are?

Not everyone here is like this of course, but it's frustrating to see people that recognize the problem, they have the personal means to make a change, but then refuse to change anything because... reasons. 

It seems like a pretty clear case of spending and values not aligning.

[neo von retorch]

Future Electric Vehicles: The EVs You'll Soon Be Able to Buy

While the price range makes them a bit problematic, I continue to be somewhat impressed by BMW, as they have made a good variety of sedans and SUVs available to purchase. When we've seen them on the road, they've caught our eye. Of course, when I look them up, that's when the sticker shock kicks in.

We're all eager for the unveiling of the next generation Chevrolet Bolt EUV!

The Wrangler EV commercial would be a bit better if it was set in Jurassic Park. Remember when 1993 had automated self-driving tour vehicles?! "We spared no expense!"

The new Nissan Leaf has been revealed, and it's actually a pretty good option for a lot of people!

Polestar 4 looks reminiscent of the 2, but that 94 kWh battery should really help with range. Maybe I'll need to upgrade! The lack of a rear window wouldn't be a huge departure from the terrible rearward view the Polestar 2 has, though the camera is also kind of pinhole, so hopefully that's improved in this new model!

Rivian R3 / R3X are so cool! But a bit nerdy. I hope they're popular.

Tesla Roadster was announced 8 years ago, so that should be available to buy soon. Right? Right?!

[NorCal]

You are also wildly off on your air travel emissions.  A ~7,100 mile flight is about 3.1 tons of emissions.  A 22mpg car traveling 15,000mi/yr is about 7.6 tons of emissions.  An EV traveling 15,000 miles per year at 3mi/kWh is about 2.5 tons of emissions at the US average electricity emissions intensity.

And finally, your numbers illustrate another very interesting point - a decently efficient modern hybrid getting 45mpg emits roughly the same carbon as an EV.

Uh, what? Just taking those numbers straight up shows that a 45 mpg vehicle would have a carbon footprint 49% higher than an EV. That's not roughly the same at all! And that's just calculating (22/45) * 7.6 which doesn't take in to account the energy cost of production which becomes more significant the more efficient a vehicle is. According to the IEA's calculator (using 14,710 miles per year and 15 years lifespan) a 45 mpg vehicle would have lifetime carbon impact of ~4.1 tons, which is is 64% higher than the EV above. And it calculates that the EV to be slightly lower at 2.4 tons (I left the energy supply assumptions at the defaults). That would bring the difference up to 69%. And 3 miles per kWh is not very efficient for an EV. The Ioniq 6 has a combined EPA rating of 26 kWh / 100 miles = 3.85 miles / kWh = 2.0 tons carbon annualized. A 45 mpg hybrid is 105% more, literally double. (edit: I actually used non-hybrid in the calculator which has lower carbon footprint than a hybrid for the same efficiency due to lower manufacturing complexity)

And we haven't even gotten in to calculations using the possibility of cleaner energy sources. Our EV is almost entirely charged by our solar array at home, for example. Edit: the calculator has a 98% renewables option, if that is your situation then the 45 mpg car has a lifetime (150k to 220k miles) carbon footprint 3.5X to 4.5X that of the EV.

This IEA calculator is the way to go if you want full lifecycle emissions comparisons. 

https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/ev-life-cycle-assessment-calculator

If you want to do quick comparisons on operating emissions, here's some emissions factors to use:
-Gasoline creates 18.73lbs of emissions per gallon, assuming an ethanol blend.  Source:  https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php
-The US average emissions/kWh on electricity is right around 0.77lbs per kWh (I used 1.1lb/kWh based on my own state's data in my post above), and has been declining by about 4% per year.  The worst states like Wyoming are around 2lbs/kWh with Washington state being around 0.26lbs/kWh.
-Note that "tons" of emissions is always referenced in metric tons, so use 2,204lbs per ton ratios.

EV's always come out better, and will be better over time as the grid cleans up.  I was able to come up with an edge case where an EV Hummer charged exclusively in Wyoming would have roughly comparable emissions to a Prius.  That's as close as you'll get to gas cars being better. 

[RWD]

According to the IEA's calculator [..]

This IEA calculator is the way to go if you want full lifecycle emissions comparisons. 

https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/ev-life-cycle-assessment-calculator

That's literally the same link. 😅