Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[JLee]

Back to EV news:

Ford is separating their EV business from their ICE business a little bit. And plans to make 2 million EVs per year by 2026:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/02/ford-plans-to-produce-2-million-evs-generate-10percent-operating-profit-by-2026.html

And Rivian is raising their prices around $12k per vehicle thanks to higher material costs. Initially they were going to raise the price for existing orders as well as newly interested buyers but that plan was changed, and now the price increase will only apply to new orders. It might be a lesson to companies that tout products and take reservations, etc long before they're actually produced. A lot can change with time, including the profit margins that you think you've figured out:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/rivian-rolls-back-big-price-increases-on-pre-orders-after-customer-backlash.html

Meanwhile, fuel prices continue to climb higher than they've been in over a decade and my boring PHEV is being seen in a more positive light by lots of truck bros at work.

Likely more -- that's just for dual motor & large battery.  My R1T preorder went up 24%  O.O

[Just Joe]

Why is Ford splitting into two entities?

[dandarc]

Why is Ford splitting into two entities?

Lays the ground work for a spinoff or selling one or the other unit should that make sense down the road.

[neo von retorch]

Why is Ford splitting into two entities?

One of the more telling stories to come out of this is that Ford plans to have fixed pricing for EVs. This is, of course, going to be seen as "dealer hostile." In theory, they are trying to move their electric vehicle business into the future, while (by their own admission) using the ICE division to pay the bills and keep the lights on.

[Shane]

Why is Ford splitting into two entities?

One of the more telling stories to come out of this is that Ford plans to have fixed pricing for EVs. This is, of course, going to be seen as "dealer hostile." In theory, they are trying to move their electric vehicle business into the future, while (by their own admission) using the ICE division to pay the bills and keep the lights on.

Fixed pricing and a stealership-free future sounds good to me.

[Paper Chaser]

Why is Ford splitting into two entities?

One of the more telling stories to come out of this is that Ford plans to have fixed pricing for EVs. This is, of course, going to be seen as "dealer hostile." In theory, they are trying to move their electric vehicle business into the future, while (by their own admission) using the ICE division to pay the bills and keep the lights on.

This, and they're also planning to move more towards a "made to order" model than the current "have a ton of inventory sitting in parking lots all over" model.

[windytrail]

Oops! Turns out our bottomless appetite for gas-guzzling, climate-choking SUVs is threatening to cancel out all of the efficiency gains from electric vehicles until at least 2040.

https://www.iea.org/commentaries/growing-preference-for-suvs-challenges-emissions-reductions-in-passenger-car-market

The impact of its rise on global emissions is nothing short of surprising. The global fleet of SUVs has seen its emissions growing by nearly 0.55 Gt CO2 during the last decade to roughly 0.7 Gt CO2. As a consequence, SUVs were the second-largest contributor to the increase in global CO2 emissions since 2010 after the power sector, but ahead of heavy industry (including iron & steel, cement, aluminium), as well as trucks and aviation.

On average, SUVs consume about a quarter more energy than medium-size cars. As a result, global fuel economy worsened caused in part by the rising SUV demand since the beginning of the decade, even though efficiency improvements in smaller cars saved over 2 million barrels a day, and electric cars displaced less than 100,000 barrels a day.

In fact, SUVs were responsible for all of the 3.3 million barrels a day growth in oil demand from passenger cars between 2010 and 2018, while oil use from other type of cars (excluding SUVs) declined slightly. If consumers’ appetite for SUVs continues to grow at a similar pace seen in the last decade, SUVs would add nearly 2 million barrels a day in global oil demand by 2040, offsetting the savings from nearly 150 million electric cars.

[nereo]

That’s supposing a lot.

[AccidentialMustache]

Yeah, like consumers won't turn away from gas sucking SUVs as the price of gas rises and hits their wallet. I guess you could assume the price spike on Russia was transitory, but I'm not sure I'm there yet.

[nereo]

Yeah, like consumers won't turn away from gas sucking SUVs as the price of gas rises and hits their wallet. I guess you could assume the price spike on Russia was transitory, but I'm not sure I'm there yet.

Yes.  The article also assumes that SUV growth will continue and that the fuel efficiency standards will not improve. It also glosses over that fleet-wide efficencies for passenger vehicles declined during that period (in no small part due to the tighter Obama-era EPA standards) and conflates the relative growth of SUVs compared to passenger vehicles to the absolute growth by that class of vehicles. 

I would say this is sloppy journalism but given the writing and the source it seems likely they arrived at the topic and then tried to make some data fit their headline.

Consider in 2010-2018 there were essentially zero options in the SUV category for BEV or PHEV, and even hybrids were just a tiny sliver. Add on that gasoline stayed relatively table in the $2-$3 range. Now look at what’s available, soon to be available or “coming soon”, the corporate shift in WFH policies, and fuel prices.
Extrapolating out two decades and assuming “nothing will change” is seems ridiculous.

[simonsez]

Yeah, like consumers won't turn away from gas sucking SUVs as the price of gas rises and hits their wallet. I guess you could assume the price spike on Russia was transitory, but I'm not sure I'm there yet.

Yes.  The article also assumes that SUV growth will continue and that the fuel efficiency standards will not improve. It also glosses over that fleet-wide efficencies for passenger vehicles declined during that period (in no small part due to the tighter Obama-era EPA standards) and conflates the relative growth of SUVs compared to passenger vehicles to the absolute growth by that class of vehicles. 

I would say this is sloppy journalism but given the writing and the source it seems likely they arrived at the topic and then tried to make some data fit their headline.

Consider in 2010-2018 there were essentially zero options in the SUV category for BEV or PHEV, and even hybrids were just a tiny sliver. Add on that gasoline stayed relatively table in the $2-$3 range. Now look at what’s available, soon to be available or “coming soon”, the corporate shift in WFH policies, and fuel prices.
Extrapolating out two decades and assuming “nothing will change” is seems ridiculous.

Nice shot with the optimism gun @nereo , I dig your style!  Plus it's much more fun to speculate about the future in a more reasonable and optimistic nature rather than rigid assumptions that don't change in a rapidly changing world - that comes off as not operating in the best faith.

[Frugal Lizard]

We are going to test drive the EV6 on Saturday.  The dealer bought one and is letting wait list folks take it for a spin.
A guy DH plays hockey with has one too.  DH was hanging out beside it waiting for him to come out to talk to him about how he likes it.  The guy said that is happening all the time.  Every time he goes to costco someone is waiting by his car.  DH is so excited. 
Gosh I hope it drives well. 

[gooki]

Nice EV to test drive. Let us know how it goes.

[Chris22]

EV6 is generally going for $5-10-15k over sticker I think. Keep that in mind.

[BicycleB]

I never heard of the ev6 until you mentioned it. The exterior looks fantastic.

[AccidentialMustache]

On one hand, I kinda wish we'd waited for the ioniq 5 / ev6. On the other hand, I paid MSRP. On the other-other hand none of these are really what I want in an EV, which is a lot more like the bolt... except without the suck (bad center armrest, seat/mirror memory, faster fast charging).

Warning: EVs will ruin gas cars for you. Loud, stinky, slow, have to go to annoying fueling stations that play ads at you in the dead of winter with the wind howling...

Lots of news on the ID.buzz being released. Potentially as much cargo volume as an odessey in a 185 inch long package. Unfortunately that's the short (non-us) wheelbase so we'll probably get some stupid boat nearly the size of the odessey... just like we didn't get the ID.3.

[Abe]

I have an ID4 and like it. Solid construction, drives well. It’s worth considering, especially after factoring in the tax credit.

[Shane]

After 3+ months of living car free, we're still happy with the decision to sell our 2 year old car for almost as much as we paid for it new. Keep thinking of renting an EV for the day on turo, but haven't done it yet. Mostly we've just been walking, riding our bikes, and taking occasional Uber rides. Looking forward to spending some of the thousands of dollars we're saving by not owning a car on train trips around the US this coming summer.

[Just Joe]

Warning: EVs will ruin gas cars for you. Loud, stinky, slow, have to go to annoying fueling stations that play ads at you in the dead of winter with the wind howling...

Agreed!

Top tip: sometimes the unmarked buttons along the edge of the gas pump screen will include a mute button. Gawd how I hate those gas pump TV screens. ;)

[Frugal Lizard]

Warning: EVs will ruin gas cars for you. Loud, stinky, slow, have to go to annoying fueling stations that play ads at you in the dead of winter with the wind howling...

Agreed!

Top tip: sometimes the unmarked buttons along the edge of the gas pump screen will include a mute button. Gawd how I hate those gas pump TV screens. ;)

Totally.

Drove behind a really stinky truck for about 30 seconds Monday and thought about how much better our whole existence would be without that pollution.

[nereo]

Warning: EVs will ruin gas cars for you. Loud, stinky, slow, have to go to annoying fueling stations that play ads at you in the dead of winter with the wind howling...

Agreed!

Top tip: sometimes the unmarked buttons along the edge of the gas pump screen will include a mute button. Gawd how I hate those gas pump TV screens. ;)

I’ve heard of these loud gas pump ads but I’ve fortunately been spared from them except once when visiting my parents. It’s once in a blue moon that I go to a gas station and so far the ones near me have not installed those TVs at the pump.

[AccidentialMustache]

The problem is while I know you can button-to-mute yours, nobody else knows that, so you half-hear the ads for the other side of the pump (or next stall over). Or you hear someone's too-loud stereo they left their car running (while pumping gas) so they could "share" with everyone else at the station, because they also left their door open.

[Frugal Lizard]

kia EV6 is fantastic. We ordered one in runway red with all the tricks.  Delivery maybe in 2022. It can tow. It can back up out of the garage without us in it.  I should not be bragging about it on this forum because it is such a toy.

[BicycleB]

kia EV6 is fantastic. We ordered one in runway red with all the tricks.  Delivery maybe in 2022. It can tow. It can back up out of the garage without us in it.  I should not be bragging about it on this forum because it is such a toy.

It's an encouragement for others to electrify! A toy that promotes the environment!

[Just Joe]

The problem is while I know you can button-to-mute yours, nobody else knows that, so you half-hear the ads for the other side of the pump (or next stall over). Or you hear someone's too-loud stereo they left their car running (while pumping gas) so they could "share" with everyone else at the station, because they also left their door open.

Benefits of living in a smallish town. Fewer people sharing the gas station with me at any given time.

[nereo]

The problem is while I know you can button-to-mute yours, nobody else knows that, so you half-hear the ads for the other side of the pump (or next stall over). Or you hear someone's too-loud stereo they left their car running (while pumping gas) so they could "share" with everyone else at the station, because they also left their door open.

Benefits of living in a smallish town. Fewer people sharing the gas station with me at any given time.

Seriously, how many gas stations have these??

[Just Joe]

We have a couple of gas stations with these. I see them the most when I visit the big metro areas near us along the interstate.

[nereo]

We have a couple of gas stations with these. I see them the most when I visit the big metro areas near us along the interstate.

Guess it’s an urban.regional thing then. Since this was mentioned I started looking around at fuel stations in my admittedly low population area and haven’t seen any that have them.

I would find that very annoying. I largely avoid 99% of “traditional” ads with ads blocker, no TV or magazines and streaming all my music and podcasts. I find it jarring when I’m with anyone who’s listening to regular radio or watching Broadcast TV

[sonofsven]

Wow, ads at the gas pumps? I've never seen it before.
I use the card lock stations as a business owner, no ads, no attendant, no prices as you get the bill two weeks after you buy the fuel.
I'm still waiting for a good electric work van to appear on the market. Although I doubt I will want to pay the probable high price for one. I was interested in the hybrid Maverick for a second as a light duty work truck for $20k until I found out how unavailable it is (for now). I'll keep driving my Frontier, 193k trouble free miles and counting.

[NorCal]

Well, I think I'm close to biting the bullet on buying a ridiculously priced new EV.  Part of our plan involves making the deliberate choice get our household to net-zero emissions for car travel and energy use before pulling the FI plug.  It is an added financial burden, but it's hard to justify not putting the resources to this if we have enough resources to retire early.

I think we'll end up with a Tesla, even though it's pretty non-mustachian.  We're at the point in kids lives where we drive very little around town, but we do some pretty long road trips to visit National Parks and out-of-state family.  I think Tesla's charging infrastructure is just better than the alternatives for the time being.  Everyone else seems to be catching up pretty fast, but I've read enough "charger drama" stories that I'm wary for the time being.  Many of the new EV's look great as well, but I also see them running into some early-adopter problems.  I'm sure they'll fix these over the next few years, but it's not something I want to deal with for a purchase I hope to last 10+ years.

[nereo]

Well, I think I'm close to biting the bullet on buying a ridiculously priced new EV.  Part of our plan involves making the deliberate choice get our household to net-zero emissions for car travel and energy use before pulling the FI plug.  It is an added financial burden, but it's hard to justify not putting the resources to this if we have enough resources to retire early.

This is largely where we have landed as well. Given that we are deeply concerned with and our careers are primarily focused on climate change, at some point it seems socially irresponsible for us to not put more of our discretionary spending towards limiting our environmental footprint.  To be frank, we’ve probably already passed that point. 

An EV is way more money than what we last spent on our used Japanese “econobox” but it will cut ~4,000 gallons of gasoline from our budget over the next 10 years (the energy largely/entirely being offset by PVs).

[StashingAway]

Well, I think I'm close to biting the bullet on buying a ridiculously priced new EV.  Part of our plan involves making the deliberate choice get our household to net-zero emissions for car travel and energy use before pulling the FI plug.  It is an added financial burden, but it's hard to justify not putting the resources to this if we have enough resources to retire early.

As long as you do an opportunity cost analysis. If you don't drive that much like a true scottsman mustachian, then you may well do better for the environment by doing something like, say, buy a $20K car and then spend $20K on some kind of carbon offset. You may well come out far ahead from an ecological standpoint if you go that route.

One of the biggest issues that I have with Tesla and the EV revolution is that it continues to normalize and even accelerate the use of vehicles. Most people most of the time are using a significantly oversized tool for the job. I am ecstatic that it is now an option compared to a gas vehilce, but at the same time it is committing us to normalizing the car and not re-evaluate our priorities. In some ways it would be better if the only option were shaped like and sounded like tractors, then people would realize how silly it is to be using 300+hp to pick up groceries. The shell and presentation has covered the machine for what it is.

[Shane]

Of course EVs are better than ICE powered vehicles, but the idea that Americans can just transfer their current car-based lifestyles to EVs, and all will be good, is a fantasy. Driving everywhere in a car, ICE or EV, is bad for us in many ways, not just because ICE cars/trucks are spewing carbon into the atmosphere.

[Just Joe]

..and wearing out roads which are in some ways just a nationwide oil slick we all sort of excuse.

An oil spill is a crisis, but then we accept putting asphalt and spraying oil on roads...

[joemandadman189]

One of the biggest issues that I have with Tesla and the EV revolution is that it continues to normalize and even accelerate the use of vehicles. Most people most of the time are using a significantly oversized tool for the job. I am ecstatic that it is now an option compared to a gas vehilce, but at the same time it is committing us to normalizing the car and not re-evaluate our priorities. In some ways it would be better if the only option were shaped like and sounded like tractors, then people would realize how silly it is to be using 300+hp to pick up groceries. The shell and presentation has covered the machine for what it is.

i get that MMM is a big fan of bikes and lots of other people are too, i am as well. But i am not going to commute by bicycle and i hardly ride to the grocery store on the weekends. My two biggest gripes are it takes too long to get somewhere by bike, i.e. work or drop kids off for school and its not safe to ride a bike. I had a crash where i had to swerve to miss a car and another instance where i was hit and my bike was destroyed (i was fine). These two things will keep me in a car most of the time until i am retired.

There are only so many ways to re-evaluate your priorities to eliminate the need to for a car. No everyone can live with in 1-2 miles of grocery stores and mass transit

My next car will be either an EV or PHEV, maybe even a EV truck. An EV truck would show my meat head buddies what is possible, how nice they are and maybe they would be encouraged to get rid of their emission spewing diesels that they commute with. I think its all baby steps to get society moving in the right direction, it may just take too long.

[GuitarStv]

i get that MMM is a big fan of bikes and lots of other people are too, i am as well. But i am not going to commute by bicycle and i hardly ride to the grocery store on the weekends. My two biggest gripes are it takes too long to get somewhere by bike, i.e. work or drop kids off for school and its not safe to ride a bike.

The feasibility of utility cycling definitely depends on your home location.  I tend to think of terms in ranges . . .

Close range - two grocery stores, the post office, several restaurants, the library, wal-mart, a liquor store, and Home Depot in about the same amount of time it takes to drive.  This is about 15 minutes each way by car or bike.

Mid-range - the fedEx location, another couple grocery stores, more restaurants, another liquor store, and several clothing stores.  This is slightly faster to do with the car (15 - 20 minutes with the car, 20 - 25 minutes by bike).

Longer range - work (actually faster by bike than car if traffic is really heavy, but under ideal conditions it's 35 minutes by car and 45 by bike)

Very long range - I'll occasionally visit friends/family a decent distance (100ish km) away by bike.  Usually about 3.5 hrs by bike, or a little over an hour by car.

Utility cycling is really a habit, and the more you do it the more efficient you get at doing it.  The first time I tried to bring a load of groceries back on my bike it took me about half an hour to load things up because I was unfamiliar with the panniers and had to re-arrange things a few times to get it all balanced right.  Just takes me a couple minutes now.

Dragging small kids around is feasible for utility cycling (there are a variety of ways to attach the kid to your bike), but it definitely does make things much more difficult.  There are roads that I'm fine cycling on my own that I wouldn't take my son on.  He's also getting heavier, so large hills are much more challenging.  If you have to do a morning drop-off somewhere far away from your work and/or need to go through busy traffic by bike I can totally get this being a reason that prevents cycling.

I had a crash where i had to swerve to miss a car and another instance where i was hit and my bike was destroyed (i was fine). These two things will keep me in a car most of the time until i am retired.

It's a good thing that car accidents don't happen, or you would never be able to drive either.  :P

[JLee]

It's a good thing that car accidents don't happen, or you would never be able to drive either.  :P

Surely you understand the difference between being hit while in a car and being hit while on a bicycle.

[LennStar]

It's a good thing that car accidents don't happen, or you would never be able to drive either.  :P

Surely you understand the difference between being hit while in a car and being hit while on a bicycle.

Yes. If you are on the bike, you are at fault. If you are in the car, accidents just happen.

[JLee]

It's a good thing that car accidents don't happen, or you would never be able to drive either.  :P

Surely you understand the difference between being hit while in a car and being hit while on a bicycle.

Yes. If you are on the bike, you are at fault. If you are in the car, accidents just happen.

At fault or not doesn't matter if you're squished.

[neo von retorch]

snip

It's a good thing that car accidents don't happen, or you would never be able to drive either.  :P

A great comment that was ruined by this last sentence. As someone who has driven small cars, trucks, motorcycles and bikes... they are not all the same.

You know that. You know not only how the accident severity varies, but also how drivers treat people differently. That doesn't make it right, but if you pretend there is no difference, well, I'm surprised you've never had any bad encounters while biking!

As for the rest of your comment, it sounds like you compare "how long things take" based on your condition and bike. I own a mountain bike, and I rode a friend's excellent road bike. The different levels of difficulty were incredible to me. It felt like "taking a break" when I got on the road bike. But... my speed biking is still something like 10-15 mph, while my car is more like 30 mph on average. So even 10 minute round trips are doubled or tripled going from car to bike, assuming the same route. And yet... the road I take to get to the closest grocery store, I would 100% avoid on bike. I'd add a couple miles to the trip and take a much safer route. But a 10 minute round trip would suddenly be easily 40-50 minutes. In the right mood or mindset, this would be fine.

But it would also requiring buying a bike and panniers, as my mountain bike is far from ideal for grocery trips. (I did use it for that purpose a lot when the living conditions were just right, about 15 years ago! Just what I could carry in a backpack without worries about temperature.)

[Frugal Lizard]

kia EV6 is fantastic. We ordered one in runway red with all the tricks.  Delivery maybe in 2022. It can tow. It can back up out of the garage without us in it.  I should not be bragging about it on this forum because it is such a toy.

It's an encouragement for others to electrify! A toy that promotes the environment!

We are becoming EV poster children in our 'hood. This will be our third EV.  And DH had one of the first E-bikes too!

[GuitarStv]

snip

It's a good thing that car accidents don't happen, or you would never be able to drive either.  :P

A great comment that was ruined by this last sentence. As someone who has driven small cars, trucks, motorcycles and bikes... they are not all the same.

You know that. You know not only how the accident severity varies, but also how drivers treat people differently. That doesn't make it right, but if you pretend there is no difference, well, I'm surprised you've never had any bad encounters while biking!

Sorry, my intent with the comment wasn't to argue that dangers while cycling don't exist.  They absolutely do.  When a car hits you on a bike or while you're walking you are going to be hurt much worse than if you were in a car.  Accident severity certainly varies - and accidents do happen.

I do believe though, that people overly focus on the accidents and fail to take into account the whole picture.
 This has been studied several different ways - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920084/ but looked at holistically, the health benefits of cycling rather than driving outweigh any safety gains you get from driving an automobile.

As for the rest of your comment, it sounds like you compare "how long things take" based on your condition and bike. I own a mountain bike, and I rode a friend's excellent road bike. The different levels of difficulty were incredible to me. It felt like "taking a break" when I got on the road bike. But... my speed biking is still something like 10-15 mph, while my car is more like 30 mph on average. So even 10 minute round trips are doubled or tripled going from car to bike, assuming the same route. And yet... the road I take to get to the closest grocery store, I would 100% avoid on bike. I'd add a couple miles to the trip and take a much safer route. But a 10 minute round trip would suddenly be easily 40-50 minutes. In the right mood or mindset, this would be fine.

This is very much the way I used to view things, before regularly cycling places.  My car goes 80 kph on the highway, and I average about 30 kph on my bike.  So it should take me 2.7 times longer to do anything on my bike than in my car, right?

This logic holds true for very long trips, but not short ones . . . and very rarely in the city where there are lots of lights and stop/go traffic.  There are a myriad of little things that slow you down when you're driving.
 Two that immediately jump to mind:
- Parking a car takes much longer than locking up a bike, and bike racks are usually closer to the front door of buildings than where you have to park.
- There's a place where I've got to make a left hand turn on the way to work.  It has a left hand turn light that's very short and often gets jammed up with dozens of cars waiting to turn, which wastes minutes.  On a bike I'll just hop off and walk on the sidewalk to the pedestrian signal, press it, wait a couple seconds for the white man, walk across, and then hop back on my bike in the lane I want to be in.
- It's often possible to take shortcuts that are unavailable to people driving . . . going across empty fields, down bike paths/trails etc.

This stuff seems to matter most for shorter trips.  I honestly can't think of a single 10 minute round trip that I could do faster in the car than on my bike - if you're counting time from door to door.

But it would also requiring buying a bike and panniers, as my mountain bike is far from ideal for grocery trips. (I did use it for that purpose a lot when the living conditions were just right, about 15 years ago! Just what I could carry in a backpack without worries about temperature.)

Fancy bike isn't necessary (and in some ways would be a negative for groceries).  I've tried pretty much all the methods that you can to carry stuff around on a bike.  This was my first grocery getter - a 45 lb department store mountain bike:


If you're regularly getting around large grocery loads, I think a rear children's trailer is the way to go.  For medium sized loads baskets are great.  Small stuff (like commuting to work) I prefer just a backpack.

[gooki]

This is very much the way I used to view things, before regularly cycling places.  My car goes 80 kph on the highway, and I average about 30 kph on my bike.  So it should take me 2.7 times longer to do anything on my bike than in my car, right?

This logic holds true for very long trips, but not short ones

Agreed. Anything around town and I'm just as fast/faster on a bike.

Today I road some 25km to the beach. It's a 45 minute ride by car, it gook all of 50 minutes on the bike. If it wasn't for the steep hill I would have been faster cycling.

[Shane]

Since most big box stores in our area don't provide bicycle parking, I've started just taking my bike inside, while I shop. So far, no one has challenged me on this. Several times now, I've wheeled my bike right to the paint department in Lowe's. After getting paint mixed, I pay, load the purchases directly into the bike panniers, push the bike back outside, hop on, and head home. Recently, at Dick's Sporting Goods, I pushed my bike right past some manager-looking people standing around talking inside the entrance, dropped the kick stand in an out of the way place, quickly locked the rear wheel to the frame, went and did my shopping, came back, loaded up the stuff I'd bought into the panniers, and rode home. That night, I wrote a positive Google review for Dick's, including a photo of my bike parked inside their store, thanking them for 'allowing' me to bring my bike inside. Being able to take a bicycle inside stores really cuts down the time it takes to run errands, compared to doing them by car. My bike really doesn't take up much space in a store, compared to the giant shopping carts most people are pushing around.

The whole thing of, "It's great that you're able to run errands on a bike, but where I live (out in the suburbs, usually) it would be impossible, take forever, or..." is a bunch of BS, imho. Nobody would live in the suburbs if there weren't cars. The suburbs were only built because of the automobile. Again, I'll say it, transferring North Americans' car-based lifestyle to EVs is a fantasy that's not going to happen. There isn't enough lithium, cobalt, and nickel on the planet to make enough batteries, so that every North American can keep on driving everywhere in a car, let alone all of the people in the rest of the world. Continuing to increase the numbers of cars and trucks, but just changing to EVs instead of ICE vehicles, is not a viable solution. In addition to moving away from ICE vehicles, we're also going to have to make lifestyle changes. There's no way around it. Sorry.

This video does a good job of explaining: Electric Vehicles' Battery Problem

[StashingAway]

The whole thing of, "It's great that you're able to run errands on a bike, but where I live (out in the suburbs, usually) it would be impossible, take forever, or..." is a bunch of BS, imho. Nobody would live in the suburbs if there weren't cars. The suburbs were only built because of the automobile. Again, I'll say it, transferring North Americans' car-based lifestyle to EVs is a fantasy that's not going to happen. There isn't enough lithium, cobalt, and nickel on the planet to make enough batteries, so that every North American can keep on driving everywhere in a car, let alone all of the people in the rest of the world. Continuing to increase the numbers of cars and trucks, but just changing to EVs instead of ICE vehicles, is not a viable solution. In addition to moving away from ICE vehicles, we're also going to have to make lifestyle changes. There's no way around it. Sorry.

The way you worded this makes the complaint itself sound invalid. But based on your paragraph, I suspect that you mean that suburbs in general are BS. I've lived places where it is indeed dangerous or impossible to even go 2 miles to a grocery store because of the lack of bicycle infrastructure.

But you're hitting on my stance as well which has in large part been influenced by MMM. It takes an incredible amount of energy to move 4,000lbs of steel just to buy 80 lbs of groceries, whether that be by lithium or petroleum. It's unfortunate that we've been trained to think cars are universal tools. They should be used for specific things (large loads or long distances).

[GuitarStv]

FWIW - Everyone loves to hate on them, but I live in the suburbs and bike all over the place.  Just because people generally don't do it, doesn't mean that it's impossible.  :P

It's really only in rural areas where I find cycling takes forever, suburbs have nothing on that.  When I go out to my dad's farm, it's about an hour and a half ride to the nearest grocery store . . . which, (while a nice place to cycle) is more than I'd want to have to do a couple times a week.  It's doesn't seem possible to live in a rural area without using a huge amount of energy to transport yourself around and to transport all the goods that you need.

[StashingAway]

FWIW - Everyone loves to hate on them, but I live in the suburbs and bike all over the place.  Just because people generally don't do it, doesn't mean that it's impossible. 

I mean, I thought the same thing until I lived in a particular location in a Midwest suburb where it was in fact extremely difficult to safely bike to close locations. And this is coming from someone who has no problem doing a 40 minute bike commute that involved 50mph frontage roads.

Sidewalks would just... end. And you'd have routes that would be ok for 85% of of it, but that last 15% was just too dang tricky to navigate on a regular basis. It's weird, because when I live in that place I chose it because it two miles away from work, which was a completely doable ride. So I had just assumed that the two miles to the grocery store would have been just as easy... nope! Lesson learned in that location is everything. Bikability is in the top 3 priorities when choosing a residence for me. I suspect that for most people who live in the 'burbs it's wasn't in the top 20.

[GuitarStv]

FWIW - Everyone loves to hate on them, but I live in the suburbs and bike all over the place.  Just because people generally don't do it, doesn't mean that it's impossible. 

I mean, I thought the same thing until I lived in a particular location in a Midwest suburb where it was in fact extremely difficult to safely bike to close locations. And this is coming from someone who has no problem doing a 40 minute bike commute that involved 50mph frontage roads.

Sidewalks would just... end. And you'd have routes that would be ok for 85% of of it, but that last 15% was just too dang tricky to navigate on a regular basis. It's weird, because when I live in that place I chose it because it two miles away from work, which was a completely doable ride. So I had just assumed that the two miles to the grocery store would have been just as easy... nope! Lesson learned in that location is everything. Bikability is in the top 3 priorities when choosing a residence for me. I suspect that for most people who live in the 'burbs it's wasn't in the top 20.

The thing is, it's not even speed.  The actual street design is very important. 

I find cycling on 80kph roads out in the countryside where traffic is pretty minimal and it's a nice sunny weekend day to be relaxing and safe feeling . . . but trying to do the same in the middle of Toronto in the dark and rain while heading to work on a Monday morning is quite a different experience.  Even on lower speed roads.

[Shane]

The whole thing of, "It's great that you're able to run errands on a bike, but where I live (out in the suburbs, usually) it would be impossible, take forever, or..." is a bunch of BS, imho. Nobody would live in the suburbs if there weren't cars. The suburbs were only built because of the automobile. Again, I'll say it, transferring North Americans' car-based lifestyle to EVs is a fantasy that's not going to happen. There isn't enough lithium, cobalt, and nickel on the planet to make enough batteries, so that every North American can keep on driving everywhere in a car, let alone all of the people in the rest of the world. Continuing to increase the numbers of cars and trucks, but just changing to EVs instead of ICE vehicles, is not a viable solution. In addition to moving away from ICE vehicles, we're also going to have to make lifestyle changes. There's no way around it. Sorry.

The way you worded this makes the complaint itself sound invalid. But based on your paragraph, I suspect that you mean that suburbs in general are BS. I've lived places where it is indeed dangerous or impossible to even go 2 miles to a grocery store because of the lack of bicycle infrastructure.

But you're hitting on my stance as well which has in large part been influenced by MMM. It takes an incredible amount of energy to move 4,000lbs of steel just to buy 80 lbs of groceries, whether that be by lithium or petroleum. It's unfortunate that we've been trained to think cars are universal tools. They should be used for specific things (large loads or long distances).

Definitely agree that there are some places where bicycling or walking just about anywhere can be all but impossible to do safely. I've lived in places like that. Kuala Lumpur and Hong Kong come to mind. I guess what seems like BS to me is the fact that so many people use the geography or layout of streets or amount of traffic or whatever it is about the place they are currently choosing to live to try to argue that, "because I can't, currently, safely cycle or walk anywhere, therefore, nobody can possibly do that anywhere...which means we're just going to have to keep on basing our whole society on the premise that every. single. person. alive. who wants to live a reasonable, middle-class life is going to have to own a giant car/truck, forever, and drive everywhere in that vehicle, never walking or riding a bike anywhere..." I think that's BS.

A friend I ride bikes with a lot is a general contractor. Much of the work he does absolutely requires him to use a big, heavy-duty truck. There's no way around it. You can't haul thousands of pounds of construction materials on your back or on a little bike trailer. My friend has to own a truck that has enough power to haul all of his tools around, as well as pull big, heavy trailers full of all kinds of heavy stuff. Maybe, partially due to listening to me rant about cars all the time, my friend has started riding his bike whenever he goes to do things that don't, necessarily, require a truck, like estimating jobs, which usually only requires that he carry a tape measure and a cell phone. Recently, my friend told me about delivering a small piece of furniture he had repaired for some clients with his bike trailer. Apparently, the customers were pretty surprised when their contractor showed up in front of their house, hauling their antique furniture behind his bicycle.

[Shane]

FWIW - Everyone loves to hate on them, but I live in the suburbs and bike all over the place.  Just because people generally don't do it, doesn't mean that it's impossible. 

I mean, I thought the same thing until I lived in a particular location in a Midwest suburb where it was in fact extremely difficult to safely bike to close locations. And this is coming from someone who has no problem doing a 40 minute bike commute that involved 50mph frontage roads.

Sidewalks would just... end. And you'd have routes that would be ok for 85% of of it, but that last 15% was just too dang tricky to navigate on a regular basis. It's weird, because when I live in that place I chose it because it two miles away from work, which was a completely doable ride. So I had just assumed that the two miles to the grocery store would have been just as easy... nope! Lesson learned in that location is everything. Bikability is in the top 3 priorities when choosing a residence for me. I suspect that for most people who live in the 'burbs it's wasn't in the top 20.

The thing is, it's not even speed.  The actual street design is very important. 

I find cycling on 80kph roads out in the countryside where traffic is pretty minimal and it's a nice sunny weekend day to be relaxing and safe feeling . . . but trying to do the same in the middle of Toronto in the dark and rain while heading to work on a Monday morning is quite a different experience.  Even on lower speed roads.

Have you ever seen Shifter? I like Tom's videos on bike commuting in Calgary.