Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 523946 times)

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2019, 09:08:16 AM »
https://rivian.com/r1t/
I'm glad others are working on this, and the high initial price is to be expected. Will be interesting to see how closely Tesla hits their announced prices initially and over time, and how competition and advancements temper this prices. As a Mustachian, I still can't see spending over $25k on a truck... I simply can't extract enough value out of it compared to a $40 rental here and there. But I know the market is full of people with money and ideas...
I don't want to spend starter house money (around here) on a vehicle that I then beat up with outdoor adventures, hardware store runs, and trips to the dump.
Then it's not for you!  That's less than 5 years of property tax around here.

Less than 2.5 years where I live. And now I'm sad :(

$69k (Rivian pricing) is 2.5 years? Shit, I don't feel so bad anymore.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2019, 09:38:36 AM »
https://rivian.com/r1t/
I'm glad others are working on this, and the high initial price is to be expected. Will be interesting to see how closely Tesla hits their announced prices initially and over time, and how competition and advancements temper this prices. As a Mustachian, I still can't see spending over $25k on a truck... I simply can't extract enough value out of it compared to a $40 rental here and there. But I know the market is full of people with money and ideas...
I don't want to spend starter house money (around here) on a vehicle that I then beat up with outdoor adventures, hardware store runs, and trips to the dump.
Then it's not for you!  That's less than 5 years of property tax around here.

Less than 2.5 years where I live. And now I'm sad :(

$69k (Rivian pricing) is 2.5 years? Shit, I don't feel so bad anymore.

I was referring to the "$25k on a truck" part, thankfully :)

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2019, 12:13:50 PM »
https://rivian.com/r1t/
I'm glad others are working on this, and the high initial price is to be expected. Will be interesting to see how closely Tesla hits their announced prices initially and over time, and how competition and advancements temper this prices. As a Mustachian, I still can't see spending over $25k on a truck... I simply can't extract enough value out of it compared to a $40 rental here and there. But I know the market is full of people with money and ideas...
I don't want to spend starter house money (around here) on a vehicle that I then beat up with outdoor adventures, hardware store runs, and trips to the dump.
Then it's not for you!  That's less than 5 years of property tax around here.

Less than 2.5 years where I live. And now I'm sad :(

$69k (Rivian pricing) is 2.5 years? Shit, I don't feel so bad anymore.

I was referring to the "$25k on a truck" part, thankfully :)

lol ahhh.  Welp, now I can be sad again!

I put a deposit on a 2017 Bolt EV today.  $19k, was $43k new. I will be driving on solar, which will be nice :)

AlanStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2019, 12:52:06 PM »
A few months back when I had a scare that my current 2004 Toyota was dead I looked around and in my market the options for used electric/hybrids was very limited.  A medium sized geographically isolated market on the east coast is not a hot bed of electric cars :-/  I am hopping this will change in a few years and that the 2004 will last that long. 

I think part of the cost of making electric cars for legacy makers is also the redesign of the frame & body and learning the new lessons of how to build an electric car and incorporate them into the manufacturing process. 

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2019, 12:57:58 PM »
I put a deposit on a 2017 Bolt EV today.  $19k, was $43k new. I will be driving on solar, which will be nice :)

Did you shop the Leaf Plus again the Bolt? I'm seriously considering a Bolt. My employer has a Leaf Plus and a Leaf standard. Like them, worry about the air cooled batteries, neither have enough miles to show any wear yet.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2019, 09:07:03 PM »
I put a deposit on a 2017 Bolt EV today.  $19k, was $43k new. I will be driving on solar, which will be nice :)

Did you shop the Leaf Plus again the Bolt? I'm seriously considering a Bolt. My employer has a Leaf Plus and a Leaf standard. Like them, worry about the air cooled batteries, neither have enough miles to show any wear yet.
The older Leafs aged terribly -- their battery life wasn't great to start with, and with degradation + cold weather I wasn't sure I'd be able to complete my 32 mi round trip commute during winter.  The Leaf Plus is 2019+, so honestly I didn't even look at them. I have a coworker who leased a 2019 Bolt a few months ago and I was sold after I drove his.   They seem to be doing quite well re: battery durability so far, so I was comfortable getting one.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2019, 07:58:24 PM »
I bought my Chevy Bolt in Dec. 2017 and I love the car. I plan to have it for at least 15 years.
Driving electric is INCREDIBLE !!!!!

jrhampt

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2019, 01:52:57 PM »
Ooh, tell me more about the Bolt.  I’ve been trying to decide on hybrid vs electric for my next car.  I want a used car preferably less than $15k.  Top 3 important factors in a car for me are reliability, high gas mileage, and price.  My current car is a Honda Fit and my last car was a Toyota Echo.  My house has solar panels and I work from home.  I drive for pleasure trips, though, and to see family.  Current candidates for my next car are:

Toyota Prius
Chevy Bolt
Chevy Volt
Hyundai Ioniq (impressive gas mileage but reliable?)
Honda Insight

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2019, 02:07:25 PM »
Ooh, tell me more about the Bolt.  I’ve been trying to decide on hybrid vs electric for my next car.  I want a used car preferably less than $15k.  Top 3 important factors in a car for me are reliability, high gas mileage, and price.  My current car is a Honda Fit and my last car was a Toyota Echo.  My house has solar panels and I work from home.  I drive for pleasure trips, though, and to see family.  Current candidates for my next car are:

Toyota Prius
Chevy Bolt
Chevy Volt
Hyundai Ioniq (impressive gas mileage but reliable?)
Honda Insight

The biggest factors that drove me to EV instead of hybrid were the complete disassociation from ICE maintenance (no engine, no belts, pulleys, oil, no emissions system at all, etc) and the sales tax exemption in my state, which saves me an instant 6+ % on my initial cost.

The next factors were the fact that I (will) have solar (install tomorrow!) and the power delivery of the Bolt. It'll do 0-60 in just over 6 seconds (spec is 6.5, people test 6.3) and it's reasonably entertaining to drive - some articles have indicated it's viable competition to the Tesla Model 3.  Combining all of that with the fact that I can get a clean used one for under $20k, it became a compelling choice.  There's not much difference in used pricing across trim levels, so I was able to get a fully loaded Premier (auto high beams, upgraded stereo, lane keep assist, pedestrian detection, low speed automatic emergency braking, heated seats front/rear, DC fast charging, etc) for roughly similar cost to a base model.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2019, 05:24:14 PM »
Yes to what JLee says about the maintenance. The electric car doesn't have a whole lot of components in it so therefore hardly any reasons to take it in to get repaired.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2019, 04:50:44 PM »
Yes to what JLee says about the maintenance. The electric car doesn't have a whole lot of components in it so therefore hardly any reasons to take it in to get repaired.

Of course, I say that and then find out that my Bolt seems to be fond of turning its headlights off while I'm driving at night.  x.x

Service manual on the way....I'm still inside powertrain and battery warranty, but unfortunately outside of the comprehensive warranty.

MasterStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2019, 07:50:12 PM »
I love my Leaf. And I use it (Plus my wife’s Prius V) to haul all kinds of stuff for my renovation jobs. Around my area there are seemingly a ton of Tesla’s.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2019, 08:05:39 PM »
Bumping this thread because I just found out the new Mustang electric is going to be an SUV and I don't like it.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2019, 11:18:10 AM »
With the EV tax credit in the US (phasing out for Tesla but is still available for Ford) the base model Mach E will set you back ~$36k, which puts it firmly in the "average" new car purchase price. That's quite good for a crossover SUV with 240 miles of range capable of 150 kW fast charge. And it's a good looking vehicle with a nicely done interior. I think Ford has a winner with this one.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 11:21:19 AM by FINate »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2019, 12:22:13 PM »
With the EV tax credit in the US (phasing out for Tesla but is still available for Ford) the base model Mach E will set you back ~$36k, which puts it firmly in the "average" new car purchase price. That's quite good for a crossover SUV with 240 miles of range capable of 150 kW fast charge. And it's a good looking vehicle with a nicely done interior. I think Ford has a winner with this one.

I always though Tesla was going to pave the way and the big guys would jump in as soon as the math made it appropriate for widespread adoption.  Seems like we might be at that point. 

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2019, 10:10:10 PM »
Could it be that there is more of an incentive to buy an electric car in Canada with the higher fuel prices?

Down here in the States:

Let's say there is $10,000 difference between an electric and a non-electric.  (The delta may be bigger)

Let's say gas is $2.50 / gallon.  (typical current price in US currency)

$10,000 / $2.50 = 4,000 gallons of gasoline

Let's say 25 mpg.

The price difference gives you 4,000 gallons X 25 mpg = 100,000 miles

So - Would you call it payback after 7-8 years when you get the 100,000 miles?  You are still paying something because you are buying electricity.  In the meantime, the technology is improving and the cost of electric cars is coming down.  I'm sure I don't see the big picture.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2019, 10:45:19 AM »
Cheaper gas certainly doesn't help. But doing the math on total cost of ownership is tricky since it involves so many local variables. In California gas is about $1 more per gallon, but it also cost thousands more/year to insure a Tesla here compared to other brands.

BEVs are way cheaper to maintain and electric motors should essentially last forever...but, there's the issue of battery lifespan. In theory this doesn't look too bad for Teslas, but there isn't enough real-world data to know for sure. 

The price differential between BEV and ICE is worse than $10k. Let's say you live in the Mountain West and plan on frequently driving in the mountains during winter so you want AWD. The cheapest Model 3 with AWD is the dual motor at ~$48k, whereas you can pick up a Subaru Crosstrek for ~$22k. If gas is $3/gallon, the gas savings don't cover the higher price until you drive the Tesla 260,000 miles. That's 17 years assuming an average 15k miles/year. If you're FIRE and/or living a MMM lifestyle, say 3k/year of driving, then it would take 87 years to make up the difference.

I realize the Model 3 is a nicer car than a base trim Crosstrek, so this isn't completely fair. But the issue remains that there are very few sub-$30k BEV options since the industry is focused on the higher end of the market with its higher margins. All this to say, the BEV market needs to come down in price *and* offer a lot more in the way of options before it becomes truly competitive. Once this happens they will hit the mainstream.

Until then, I doubt cost is a major concern among the current crop of buyers. Nothing says "I'm wealthy and educated and green" like driving around in a BEV, which is why the Mach E makes a point to market its vegan interior. Coastal California is worlds apart from the middle of the USA, with different values and concerns. Sure, there are green consumers in every state, but I suspect BEVs would be more successfully marketed in middle America by appealing to things like patriotism and energy independence, as a way to choke off oil revenues to regimes such as Venezuela and Iran. Alas, BEV == environmentalist is so deeply ingrained at this point that I don't see this changing in our increasingly polarized nation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 10:47:34 AM by FINate »

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2019, 12:52:16 PM »
Good points -   "I'm wealthy and educated and green" 

I just purchased a new vehicle.  I looked at the electrics.  At least the hybrids. 

I guess  my criteria was far from the three items stated.  I do not have any ambition to flaunt my savings.  I lie low.  I am still one of the poor folks although I guess the numbers no longer show it.  It's an attitude thing. 

I was taught never to flaunt my education.  Not every one was given my opportunities.  In addition, my life has taught me that there are a lot of people out there without education that are just damned smart.

Green - I figure my meager efforts are like a drop of spit in the ocean.

In 10 years or so when this one has worn out, I'll look around and see if the economy of scale and technological improvements have lowered the price of the electrics.  Maybe Moore's law will hit batteries.

I'm also wondering if someone will go the other direction and make "green" fuel.  I saw two separate articles of fuel being made from air.  One was in Germany and the other was the US military.  Seems like this would be as good or better than battery powered cars.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2019, 01:30:34 PM »
Bumping this thread because I just found out the new Mustang electric is going to be an SUV and I don't like it.

Do don't like it as in:

you do not like that a Mustang will be a SUV;

you do not like that a Mustang will be an EV; or

you do not like the vehicle for another reason independent of the Mustang name?

MasterStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2019, 02:20:46 PM »
Cheaper gas certainly doesn't help. But doing the math on total cost of ownership is tricky since it involves so many local variables. In California gas is about $1 more per gallon, but it also cost thousands more/year to insure a Tesla here compared to other brands.

BEVs are way cheaper to maintain and electric motors should essentially last forever...but, there's the issue of battery lifespan. In theory this doesn't look too bad for Teslas, but there isn't enough real-world data to know for sure. 

The price differential between BEV and ICE is worse than $10k. Let's say you live in the Mountain West and plan on frequently driving in the mountains during winter so you want AWD. The cheapest Model 3 with AWD is the dual motor at ~$48k, whereas you can pick up a Subaru Crosstrek for ~$22k. If gas is $3/gallon, the gas savings don't cover the higher price until you drive the Tesla 260,000 miles. That's 17 years assuming an average 15k miles/year. If you're FIRE and/or living a MMM lifestyle, say 3k/year of driving, then it would take 87 years to make up the difference.

I realize the Model 3 is a nicer car than a base trim Crosstrek, so this isn't completely fair. But the issue remains that there are very few sub-$30k BEV options since the industry is focused on the higher end of the market with its higher margins. All this to say, the BEV market needs to come down in price *and* offer a lot more in the way of options before it becomes truly competitive. Once this happens they will hit the mainstream.

Until then, I doubt cost is a major concern among the current crop of buyers. Nothing says "I'm wealthy and educated and green" like driving around in a BEV, which is why the Mach E makes a point to market its vegan interior. Coastal California is worlds apart from the middle of the USA, with different values and concerns. Sure, there are green consumers in every state, but I suspect BEVs would be more successfully marketed in middle America by appealing to things like patriotism and energy independence, as a way to choke off oil revenues to regimes such as Venezuela and Iran. Alas, BEV == environmentalist is so deeply ingrained at this point that I don't see this changing in our increasingly polarized nation.

+1
It isn't just about fuel savings. Cost of ownership is a huge factor as well. My seemingly trusty Honda Civic was averaging one somewhat major repair per year the last three years of ownership (New starter, exhaust and A/C). I don't have to worry about any of those on my Leaf. 

Wrenchturner

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2019, 02:31:53 PM »
Bumping this thread because I just found out the new Mustang electric is going to be an SUV and I don't like it.

Do don't like it as in:

you do not like that a Mustang will be a SUV;

you do not like that a Mustang will be an EV; or

you do not like the vehicle for another reason independent of the Mustang name?

Don't like that the mustang will be an SUV.  Otherwise I think it's cool and good looking.  I'm late to the party.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2019, 03:09:45 PM »
Bumping this thread because I just found out the new Mustang electric is going to be an SUV and I don't like it.

Do don't like it as in:

you do not like that a Mustang will be a SUV;

you do not like that a Mustang will be an EV; or

you do not like the vehicle for another reason independent of the Mustang name?

Don't like that the mustang will be an SUV.  Otherwise I think it's cool and good looking.  I'm late to the party.

Gotcha.

As a person who has a slightly unnecessary affection for cars, I had the same initial reaction.

But after I thought about it for a moment, is seems smart. Other than converting an entire brand (like Lincoln) or reviving a dead brand as all electric (like Mercury) it seems that using the Mustang brand gives the EV is best chance.

Plus it makes to move the Mustang into the SUV/CUV realm, much like with Porsche introduced its first SUV. And it does align with Ford dropping most cars from its US lineup.

I am not sure how an existing brand Ford with a legacy dealer network, and its obligations, will ultimately compare to the wave of EV start-ups that have a direct-to-consumer model.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2019, 03:19:09 PM »
Gotcha.

As a person who has a slightly unnecessary affection for cars, I had the same initial reaction.

But after I thought about it for a moment, is seems smart. Other than converting an entire brand (like Lincoln) or reviving a dead brand as all electric (like Mercury) it seems that using the Mustang brand gives the EV is best chance.

Plus it makes to move the Mustang into the SUV/CUV realm, much like with Porsche introduced its first SUV. And it does align with Ford dropping most cars from its US lineup.

I am not sure how an existing brand Ford with a legacy dealer network, and its obligations, will ultimately compare to the wave of EV start-ups that have a direct-to-consumer model.

I'm sure there's been outrage at every iteration of Mustang.  The way cars keep getting bigger and taller makes me sad though.  I'll have to hold out for an electric Miata.  At least those things are still small and light!

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2020, 05:22:19 PM »
The price differential between BEV and ICE is worse than $10k. Let's say you live in the Mountain West and plan on frequently driving in the mountains during winter so you want AWD. The cheapest Model 3 with AWD is the dual motor at ~$48k, whereas you can pick up a Subaru Crosstrek for ~$22k.

Yep but you can buy a Chevy Bolt used with 15K miles right now at CarMax for around $25K. Picked CarMax b/c its an easy search. Might be better deals out there.

To me a 15K mile old car is functionally new.

New Subbie or nearly new EV. Your choice.

Edited: fixed wording.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 05:25:01 PM by Just Joe »

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2020, 06:25:44 PM »
The price differential between BEV and ICE is worse than $10k. Let's say you live in the Mountain West and plan on frequently driving in the mountains during winter so you want AWD. The cheapest Model 3 with AWD is the dual motor at ~$48k, whereas you can pick up a Subaru Crosstrek for ~$22k.

Yep but you can buy a Chevy Bolt used with 15K miles right now at CarMax for around $25K. Picked CarMax b/c its an easy search. Might be better deals out there.

To me a 15K mile old car is functionally new.

New Subbie or nearly new EV. Your choice.

Edited: fixed wording.

The Bolt isn't in the same class as the Subaru. AWD has yet to filter down the to cheaper BEVs.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2020, 08:33:31 PM »
The price differential between BEV and ICE is worse than $10k. Let's say you live in the Mountain West and plan on frequently driving in the mountains during winter so you want AWD. The cheapest Model 3 with AWD is the dual motor at ~$48k, whereas you can pick up a Subaru Crosstrek for ~$22k. If gas is $3/gallon, the gas savings don't cover the higher price until you drive the Tesla 260,000 miles. That's 17 years assuming an average 15k miles/year. If you're FIRE and/or living a MMM lifestyle, say 3k/year of driving, then it would take 87 years to make up the difference.

Living in the mountain west, I'd suggest that most people would do exactly what we do (and most of the people I know do if they care about this sort of thing): Have one car for most of the year, and a truck with 4WD and high ground clearance for getting into the mountains in the winter.  Most EVs have poor ground clearance, at best.  It improves efficiency, so for the 95% of miles on dry or wet ground, it's a win.  But it means that even with snow tires, you'll struggle to get an EV into the mountains - they just bottom out.  But putting a thousand miles a year on a truck, the truck will last basically forever.  Things don't rust here to any meaningful extent.  So you keep a truck (or large SUV) around for the things that need it, and you drive something else the rest of the year.

But the per-mile cost of an EV is significantly lower than the cost of an efficient car, and radically lower than a truck.  I figure the Volt is around $0.05-$0.07/mi to run, with energy/tire costs ($0.03/mi in power, $0.025/mi in tires, depending on the season).  I casually budget my truck at $0.50/mi to run ($0.30/mi in fuel, $0.04/mi in tires, I don't have a bypass oil filter so that's $150/yr in oil, and any other parts have the truck tax applied).  I just don't use the truck as a casual runabout very often.

Quote
Coastal California is worlds apart from the middle of the USA, with different values and concerns.

And an extra "0" tacked on the price of everything.  A loaded Tesla is a good fraction the price of a house in very large chunks of the country.

Quote
Sure, there are green consumers in every state, but I suspect BEVs would be more successfully marketed in middle America by appealing to things like patriotism and energy independence, as a way to choke off oil revenues to regimes such as Venezuela and Iran. Alas, BEV == environmentalist is so deeply ingrained at this point that I don't see this changing in our increasingly polarized nation.

Do you actually know many "middle Americans"?  You'd have far better luck focusing on operating costs as a cheap commuter, and keeping miles off the nice car.  Import cheap Leafs into the central part of the country.  Power is fairly cheap, roads are good, and the cost of operating a used EV is a fraction the cost of operating a nicer vehicle.  The more you ignore the polarizing issues, the better.  It's sad watching a large group use the "choke a red smurf until they're a blue smurf" sort of approach to EV uptake, not actually understanding the market they're trying to sell to.  No, you're not going to sell a $100k Tesla to someone who lives on a gravel road in Iowa, but an $8k Leaf for running into town and back on less than a dollar of energy?  That's far more interesting.

And, importantly, those operating costs are far, far less varying than gas costs.  People know gas costs whipsaw around quite a bit, but electricity costs are quite stable in almost all of the country.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2020, 09:35:50 PM »
Living in the mountain west, I'd suggest that most people would do exactly what we do (and most of the people I know do if they care about this sort of thing): Have one car for most of the year, and a truck with 4WD and high ground clearance for getting into the mountains in the winter.  Most EVs have poor ground clearance, at best.  It improves efficiency, so for the 95% of miles on dry or wet ground, it's a win.  But it means that even with snow tires, you'll struggle to get an EV into the mountains - they just bottom out.  But putting a thousand miles a year on a truck, the truck will last basically forever.  Things don't rust here to any meaningful extent.  So you keep a truck (or large SUV) around for the things that need it, and you drive something else the rest of the year.

But the per-mile cost of an EV is significantly lower than the cost of an efficient car, and radically lower than a truck.  I figure the Volt is around $0.05-$0.07/mi to run, with energy/tire costs ($0.03/mi in power, $0.025/mi in tires, depending on the season).  I casually budget my truck at $0.50/mi to run ($0.30/mi in fuel, $0.04/mi in tires, I don't have a bypass oil filter so that's $150/yr in oil, and any other parts have the truck tax applied).  I just don't use the truck as a casual runabout very often.

Agree - I have a truck used in much the same way. Though a Subaru or similar is a fine choice for getting around on plowed roads w/o the hassle of chains, and can be used in much the same way. Eventually decent lower-cost BEV AWDs will come to market and then filter down in the used car market.

Do you actually know many "middle Americans"?  You'd have far better luck focusing on operating costs as a cheap commuter, and keeping miles off the nice car.  Import cheap Leafs into the central part of the country.  Power is fairly cheap, roads are good, and the cost of operating a used EV is a fraction the cost of operating a nicer vehicle.  The more you ignore the polarizing issues, the better.  It's sad watching a large group use the "choke a red smurf until they're a blue smurf" sort of approach to EV uptake, not actually understanding the market they're trying to sell to.  No, you're not going to sell a $100k Tesla to someone who lives on a gravel road in Iowa, but an $8k Leaf for running into town and back on less than a dollar of energy?  That's far more interesting.

And, importantly, those operating costs are far, far less varying than gas costs.  People know gas costs whipsaw around quite a bit, but electricity costs are quite stable in almost all of the country.

I know a handful of middle Americans, though mostly familiar with rural Californians (yes, there are actually "red" parts of the state), and agree that EV marketing to this segment is missing the mark...this was the point I was trying to make, apparently unsuccessfully. I grew up in a poor rural area so I get it. Not convinced cost of ownership facts are effective given the number of folks commuting in full size pickups and SUVs. When discussing EVs with conservative friends and relatives, I find that focusing on things like energy independence is effective whereas environmental concerns are a dead end. Cost of ownership? Seems like a secondary concern for most, a nice-to-have. They care about performance (EVs do well in this area) but it also has to look "normal." The Bolt and the Leaf aren't the right body style for this group. At some point someone is going to figure out how to make a nice looking AWD crossover with reasonable range for ~$35k, which will have broad appeal.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2020, 10:08:31 PM »
Agree - I have a truck used in much the same way. Though a Subaru or similar is a fine choice for getting around on plowed roads w/o the hassle of chains, and can be used in much the same way. Eventually decent lower-cost BEV AWDs will come to market and then filter down in the used car market.

If you're working with plowed roads, I'd take a 2WD vehicle and snow tires over a Subaru, unless you're also putting snow tires on it.  I've driven just about every combination of drivetrain option with and without snow tires.  A Subaru on all seasons is hysterically fun in the winter, but less capable than a typical 2WD car on good snow tires.  A Subaru on snow tires, of course, is virtually unstoppable.  Though I have gotten one stuck.  It took 5 of us an hour to dig it out, and we very nearly got a 3/4 ton Excursion stuck in the process.

In any case, the "snow vehicle" is definitely a thing, and means that an EV just doesn't have to cover those cases to be quite useful.

Quote
I know a handful of middle Americans, though mostly familiar with rural Californians (yes, there are actually "red" parts of the state), and agree that EV marketing to this segment is missing the mark...this was the point I was trying to make, apparently unsuccessfully. I grew up in a poor rural area so I get it. Not convinced cost of ownership facts are effective given the number of folks commuting in full size pickups and SUVs. When discussing EVs with conservative friends and relatives, I find that focusing on things like energy independence is effective whereas environmental concerns are a dead end. Cost of ownership? Seems like a secondary concern for most, a nice-to-have. They care about performance (EVs do well in this area) but it also has to look "normal." The Bolt and the Leaf aren't the right body style for this group. At some point someone is going to figure out how to make a nice looking AWD crossover with reasonable range for ~$35k, which will have broad appeal.

My understanding is that rural California is it's own somewhat special beast, compared to the Midwest, at least.  I'm quite familiar with California having red areas, as a lot of them are abandoning those areas and moving to Idaho.  The midwest is a lot more casual, at least in my experience.

Environmental points are certainly a dead end, energy independence and locally sourced energy is valuable, but I find an awful lot of ears perk up when I talk energy costs for distance traveled.  I'm out in a rural area outside town, and while we do drive quite a few more miles than many people on this forum, at least, the Volt optimizes that quite nicely.  A round trip into town is about $1, vs about $3 on gas - and that adds up in a hurry.

Though I agree about body styles.  I'm reasonably convinced that's what gave Tesla their success - it was a normal looking car that was electric, instead of... whatever the Leaf/i3/Bolt/etc are trying to be.  Nissan has gotten away with some quirky designs, but I don't think I know anyone above the age of about 30 who owns one.  A pure electric Civic or Focus or Camry is going to be quite popular.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2020, 10:23:34 PM »
Agree - I have a truck used in much the same way. Though a Subaru or similar is a fine choice for getting around on plowed roads w/o the hassle of chains, and can be used in much the same way. Eventually decent lower-cost BEV AWDs will come to market and then filter down in the used car market.

If you're working with plowed roads, I'd take a 2WD vehicle and snow tires over a Subaru, unless you're also putting snow tires on it.  I've driven just about every combination of drivetrain option with and without snow tires.  A Subaru on all seasons is hysterically fun in the winter, but less capable than a typical 2WD car on good snow tires.  A Subaru on snow tires, of course, is virtually unstoppable.  Though I have gotten one stuck.  It took 5 of us an hour to dig it out, and we very nearly got a 3/4 ton Excursion stuck in the process.

In any case, the "snow vehicle" is definitely a thing, and means that an EV just doesn't have to cover those cases to be quite useful.

Quote
I know a handful of middle Americans, though mostly familiar with rural Californians (yes, there are actually "red" parts of the state), and agree that EV marketing to this segment is missing the mark...this was the point I was trying to make, apparently unsuccessfully. I grew up in a poor rural area so I get it. Not convinced cost of ownership facts are effective given the number of folks commuting in full size pickups and SUVs. When discussing EVs with conservative friends and relatives, I find that focusing on things like energy independence is effective whereas environmental concerns are a dead end. Cost of ownership? Seems like a secondary concern for most, a nice-to-have. They care about performance (EVs do well in this area) but it also has to look "normal." The Bolt and the Leaf aren't the right body style for this group. At some point someone is going to figure out how to make a nice looking AWD crossover with reasonable range for ~$35k, which will have broad appeal.

My understanding is that rural California is it's own somewhat special beast, compared to the Midwest, at least.  I'm quite familiar with California having red areas, as a lot of them are abandoning those areas and moving to Idaho.  The midwest is a lot more casual, at least in my experience.

Environmental points are certainly a dead end, energy independence and locally sourced energy is valuable, but I find an awful lot of ears perk up when I talk energy costs for distance traveled.  I'm out in a rural area outside town, and while we do drive quite a few more miles than many people on this forum, at least, the Volt optimizes that quite nicely.  A round trip into town is about $1, vs about $3 on gas - and that adds up in a hurry.

Though I agree about body styles.  I'm reasonably convinced that's what gave Tesla their success - it was a normal looking car that was electric, instead of... whatever the Leaf/i3/Bolt/etc are trying to be.  Nissan has gotten away with some quirky designs, but I don't think I know anyone above the age of about 30 who owns one.  A pure electric Civic or Focus or Camry is going to be quite popular.

There is an electric Focus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric

I love my Bolt.  ~$19k used is a bit spendy for the MMM-used-car world, but my maintenance schedule is tire rotations / cabin air filters at reasonable intervals, and a coolant change every 150k miles.  No gas, no oil, no belts, etc.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2020, 11:20:47 PM »
If you're working with plowed roads, I'd take a 2WD vehicle and snow tires over a Subaru, unless you're also putting snow tires on it.  I've driven just about every combination of drivetrain option with and without snow tires.  A Subaru on all seasons is hysterically fun in the winter, but less capable than a typical 2WD car on good snow tires.  A Subaru on snow tires, of course, is virtually unstoppable.  Though I have gotten one stuck.  It took 5 of us an hour to dig it out, and we very nearly got a 3/4 ton Excursion stuck in the process.

I suppose it depends on the state. In CA level 2 chain controls (R2) require 4WD/AWD with all seasons, or chains. In practice they never get to R3 requirements and instead shutdown the road. I've done my share of winter driving in the Sierras with a gen1 Prius. It performed well, but chaining and unchainging for multiple passes sucks.

My understanding is that rural California is it's own somewhat special beast, compared to the Midwest, at least.  I'm quite familiar with California having red areas, as a lot of them are abandoning those areas and moving to Idaho.  The midwest is a lot more casual, at least in my experience.

Well, it's difficult to generalize about the red areas of CA as there's a lot of diversity and things have changed in recent decades. Many rural areas near major metro areas have become bedroom communities for cities refusing to build housing. When I was a kid the central valley was almost entirely ag, very similar to middle America in style and culture, but urban sprawl is spreading in many places. And statewide minimum wage increases (now $13) are causing unemployment problems in many of these communities, furthering the tendency for people to commute long distances to HCOL areas. So yes, this has changed the overall culture in these areas, yet a semblance of yesteryear remains as some established families do their best to hang on. So it's a mixed bag...long distance white collar workers and a diminishing number of blue collar workers. Areas beyond reasonable commute distance (e.g. southern San Joaquin Valley) are less affected, but this too is changing.

The California exodus is real, we've had quite a few friends and family move to OR, WA, ID, CO, TX, TN, WI, and AZ. We are planning our exit this year. The state is hollowing out as families and those with middle incomes increasingly realize they cannot make it here.

Environmental points are certainly a dead end, energy independence and locally sourced energy is valuable, but I find an awful lot of ears perk up when I talk energy costs for distance traveled.  I'm out in a rural area outside town, and while we do drive quite a few more miles than many people on this forum, at least, the Volt optimizes that quite nicely.  A round trip into town is about $1, vs about $3 on gas - and that adds up in a hurry.

Agree. Lower cost is my main interest in EVs, plan to get a few more years (5?) out of our 10 year old Toyota and then make the jump to an EV.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2020, 07:38:47 AM »
I think they could enhance the sales of electric cars to "middle Americans" if they greatly ramped up production of electric cars in "middle America."  Make Detroit great again!

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2020, 05:52:54 PM »
Yes to what JLee says about the maintenance. The electric car doesn't have a whole lot of components in it so therefore hardly any reasons to take it in to get repaired.

Of course, I say that and then find out that my Bolt seems to be fond of turning its headlights off while I'm driving at night.  x.x

Service manual on the way....I'm still inside powertrain and battery warranty, but unfortunately outside of the comprehensive warranty.

Did this get fixed?  Was it expensive ?

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2020, 06:32:59 PM »
Yes to what JLee says about the maintenance. The electric car doesn't have a whole lot of components in it so therefore hardly any reasons to take it in to get repaired.

Of course, I say that and then find out that my Bolt seems to be fond of turning its headlights off while I'm driving at night.  x.x

Service manual on the way....I'm still inside powertrain and battery warranty, but unfortunately outside of the comprehensive warranty.

Did this get fixed?  Was it expensive ?

I'm replacing the HID bulbs this weekend - hopefully that will fix it! They were $62/ea.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2020, 06:57:27 PM »
10 Electric Vehicles to Watch
https://nyti.ms/39tqpPz

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2020, 09:20:14 PM »
I suppose it depends on the state. In CA level 2 chain controls (R2) require 4WD/AWD with all seasons, or chains. In practice they never get to R3 requirements and instead shutdown the road. I've done my share of winter driving in the Sierras with a gen1 Prius. It performed well, but chaining and unchainging for multiple passes sucks.

I'm not familiar with CA's requirements specifically, but how does that interact with "real" snow tires (studded or studless)?  As opposed to the M+S rated all seasons (which are mostly worthless in the winter)?

My knowledge of this is somewhat dated, but as I recall things, studded snow tires are considered equal to tire chains in many areas in terms of pass requirements.  You could either chain up, or have "real snow tires."  So a Prius with studded snow tires should be permitted through "chains required" areas.  Just, not with all seasons ("three seasons" if you get a real winter).

I'm pretty sure that actual snow tires solve the problem for all reasonable levels of solved.

Quote
The California exodus is real, we've had quite a few friends and family move to OR, WA, ID, CO, TX, TN, WI, and AZ. We are planning our exit this year. The state is hollowing out as families and those with middle incomes increasingly realize they cannot make it here.

Yeah.  Just remember that CA policies are why the place is unliveable unless you're either making well into 6 figures or shitting on sidewalks.  The "CA Exodus" isn't very welcome when it shows up in perfectly nice and affordable rural places and tries to make them coastal CA.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2020, 09:36:32 PM »
I'm not familiar with CA's requirements specifically, but how does that interact with "real" snow tires (studded or studless)?  As opposed to the M+S rated all seasons (which are mostly worthless in the winter)?

My knowledge of this is somewhat dated, but as I recall things, studded snow tires are considered equal to tire chains in many areas in terms of pass requirements.  You could either chain up, or have "real snow tires."  So a Prius with studded snow tires should be permitted through "chains required" areas.  Just, not with all seasons ("three seasons" if you get a real winter).

I'm pretty sure that actual snow tires solve the problem for all reasonable levels of solved.

In CA there's no distinction for a true winter tire vs all seasons. R2 restrictions require all season/winter tire AND 4WD/AWD. In any case, west of the Sierras it's often far too warm during winter for proper winter tires.

Yeah.  Just remember that CA policies are why the place is unliveable unless you're either making well into 6 figures or shitting on sidewalks.  The "CA Exodus" isn't very welcome when it shows up in perfectly nice and affordable rural places and tries to make them coastal CA.

+1. But it's not just the CA migrants you have to worry about. Apparently some long time residents in Idaho are keen on trying out NIMBYism and xenophobia in an attempt to keep Californians from moving there (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-10/go-back-to-california-wave-of-newcomers-fuels-backlash-in-boise). That's not going to work, nor will it end well.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2020, 09:40:17 PM »
In CA there's no distinction for a true winter tire vs all seasons. R2 restrictions require all season/winter tire AND 4WD/AWD. In any case, west of the Sierras it's often far too warm during winter for proper winter tires.

Huh.  Must be more of a midwest thing.  Or I'm just mis-remembering stuff.  I've got a good truck, I've got good chains, I do my best to avoid needing the combination.  Studded snow tires are fine in the warm, just hard on the roads.  It's the studless stuff that turns to spongey mush in the warm.

[quote author=Syonyk link=topic=109465.msg2528299#msg2528299 date=1578025214
+1. But it's not just the CA migrants you have to worry about. Apparently some long time residents in Idaho are keen on trying out NIMBYism and xenophobia in an attempt to keep Californians from moving there (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-10/go-back-to-california-wave-of-newcomers-fuels-backlash-in-boise). That's not going to work, nor will it end well.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm aware.  I just hope it grows down my way slow enough that I can retire before I have to head out to Owyhee County.  Kuna is growing like mad lately, my area has been mostly spared so far, though there's an awful lot of new construction to the north of me. :/

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2020, 02:58:41 PM »
Dragging this one back (somewhat) on topic, the current recommendation (according to our tire guy) is studless winter tires. Blah blah blah special material. We've found they work pretty well, although I have to say -- our VW Eurovan with studded tires was basically unstoppable, although it was FWD. If there was pavement under there somewhere, we could get through anything that didn't involve snow higher then the bumper. I remember a drive on roads that were so icy there were trucks off the road several per mile, when the van just kept going straight with no signs of slipping.

Here in Colorado, I think the rule is chains OR winter tires (real winter tires, not mud&whatever) OR 4wd (although 4wd with crappy tires is less useful then you'd think). Or you'll get ticketed if you get stuck.

Actually, mileage+winter roadworthiness +range is a combination we're looking for, and so far I'm not super-impressed. We're thinking about the Prius 4wdE (or whatever it's actually called), but I'm thinking I want to drive it in a slippery parking lot first (and, honestly, let it ripen a bit. I'm not exactly an early adopter).

We've been driving Audis for a while now, and the quattro (ours is a 1995 90) is pretty awesome for winter driving.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2020, 03:36:46 PM »
The Bolt isn't in the same class as the Subaru. AWD has yet to filter down the to cheaper BEVs.

I don't live where snow is really that big of a problem. If we do get snowed n, it seldom lasts for more than few days or happens more than a couple of times per season here lately.

Around AWD is for steep roads, gravel, mud, fields, the occasional snow, and camping. Leave the BEV at home for those trips and take the other vehicle. Or wait for the thaw.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 03:39:06 PM by Just Joe »

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2020, 08:04:20 AM »
Batteries weigh a lot.  This makes electric vehicles heavier.  Heavier vehicles sometimes do better in snow.  The Focus I recently traded in was a light car with low ground clearance.  I seem to remember getting hung up a few times, but I was able to rock it out or was freed up with a little work with an old portable Fleet Farm shovel.

No mountains, no passes, no chains required where I live.

kenmoremmm

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2020, 03:55:33 PM »
on one of these EV threads, i recall someone posting a link to calculated operating costs for various vehicles (not just type, but actual models). does anyone know what that link is?

libertarian4321

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2020, 01:03:24 PM »

If they have any kind of range at all, they will be popular.

For me this is the X factor in buying an electric car.  We do A LOT of cross-state (western US) driving that we'll continue to do after retiring and settling down.  Until charge mileage or recharging infrastructure is big enough for me to feel comfortable driving those kinds of trips I'm holding off. In the meantime I'm driving a ten year old Prius.

If you plan to use the car for long trips, and not just commuting (any eV will suffice for most daily commutes), Tesla is the only real choice.  The Tesla Superchargers make cross country travel very practical- only slightly slower, and a lot cheaper, than an ICE gas guzzler.

We drove our Tesla Model S from South Texas to upstate NY last fall, and had no problem with range.  Every 4-5 hours, we'd stop for a meal or whatever, and recharge- right off the highway at a Tesla Supercharger.  You can't do that with a Leaf/Bolt/whatever.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2020, 01:05:03 PM »

If they have any kind of range at all, they will be popular.

For me this is the X factor in buying an electric car.  We do A LOT of cross-state (western US) driving that we'll continue to do after retiring and settling down.  Until charge mileage or recharging infrastructure is big enough for me to feel comfortable driving those kinds of trips I'm holding off. In the meantime I'm driving a ten year old Prius.

If you plan to use the car for long trips, and not just commuting (any eV will suffice for most daily commutes), Tesla is the only real choice.  The Tesla Superchargers make cross country travel very practical- only slightly slower, and a lot cheaper, than an ICE gas guzzler.

We drove our Tesla Model S from South Texas to upstate NY last fall, and had no problem with range.  Every 4-5 hours, we'd stop for a meal or whatever, and recharge- right off the highway at a Tesla Supercharger.  You can't do that with a Leaf/Bolt/whatever.

That's the biggest reason I sold my Bolt -- I massively undervalued the Supercharger network initially.

libertarian4321

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2020, 01:28:03 PM »

If they have any kind of range at all, they will be popular.

For me this is the X factor in buying an electric car.  We do A LOT of cross-state (western US) driving that we'll continue to do after retiring and settling down.  Until charge mileage or recharging infrastructure is big enough for me to feel comfortable driving those kinds of trips I'm holding off. In the meantime I'm driving a ten year old Prius.

If you plan to use the car for long trips, and not just commuting (any eV will suffice for most daily commutes), Tesla is the only real choice.  The Tesla Superchargers make cross country travel very practical- only slightly slower, and a lot cheaper, than an ICE gas guzzler.

We drove our Tesla Model S from South Texas to upstate NY last fall, and had no problem with range.  Every 4-5 hours, we'd stop for a meal or whatever, and recharge- right off the highway at a Tesla Supercharger.  You can't do that with a Leaf/Bolt/whatever.

That's the biggest reason I sold my Bolt -- I massively undervalued the Supercharger network initially.

The Tesla Supercharger network means that Teslas can go anywhere a gas guzzler can go, it's a huge advantage over the other electric makers.  If someone buys a Leaf/Bolt/that ugly BMW electric Larry David drive on "Curb Your Enthusiasm" (i3?)/etc you almost have to keep at least one ICE vehicle in the household for long trips (or rent, I guess).

We currently have a Tesla and one ICE model, but we will probably buy another Tesla in the next couple of years.  Either the Model Y or the Tesla Truck.  I'm weird, I kind of like the hideous styling of the Tesla truck- looks like something Mel Gibson could have driven in the original "Mad Max." :)

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2020, 03:50:23 PM »
I've driven a Leaf for 4.5 years, can't imagine going back to ICE, however my 2015 Leaf has seen a noticeable decrease in range, now probably 75 miles, or less at highway speeds. That plus the lack of a back center seat headrest with 3 kids and the youngest's head starting to poke above the seat back has led me to consider my options in the last few months. I'd like 3 rows to keep the kids separated, however only the Model X offers this now. Model Y will have a 3-row version in 2021, but there's no way they could be full seats. I'm also annoyed, because while I would definitely get a Leaf Plus, or Bolt, neither appear to have headrests for the back center seat, unless the pictures are hiding something.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2020, 04:00:07 PM »

If they have any kind of range at all, they will be popular.

For me this is the X factor in buying an electric car.  We do A LOT of cross-state (western US) driving that we'll continue to do after retiring and settling down.  Until charge mileage or recharging infrastructure is big enough for me to feel comfortable driving those kinds of trips I'm holding off. In the meantime I'm driving a ten year old Prius.

If you plan to use the car for long trips, and not just commuting (any eV will suffice for most daily commutes), Tesla is the only real choice.  The Tesla Superchargers make cross country travel very practical- only slightly slower, and a lot cheaper, than an ICE gas guzzler.

We drove our Tesla Model S from South Texas to upstate NY last fall, and had no problem with range.  Every 4-5 hours, we'd stop for a meal or whatever, and recharge- right off the highway at a Tesla Supercharger.  You can't do that with a Leaf/Bolt/whatever.

That's the biggest reason I sold my Bolt -- I massively undervalued the Supercharger network initially.

The Tesla Supercharger network means that Teslas can go anywhere a gas guzzler can go, it's a huge advantage over the other electric makers.  If someone buys a Leaf/Bolt/that ugly BMW electric Larry David drive on "Curb Your Enthusiasm" (i3?)/etc you almost have to keep at least one ICE vehicle in the household for long trips (or rent, I guess).

We currently have a Tesla and one ICE model, but we will probably buy another Tesla in the next couple of years.  Either the Model Y or the Tesla Truck.  I'm weird, I kind of like the hideous styling of the Tesla truck- looks like something Mel Gibson could have driven in the original "Mad Max." :)

I'll likely be buying an EV and definitely a Tesla.  The reason is the Superchargers.  Long range travel without supercharging just isn't practical.  It will probably be the truck.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2020, 12:43:07 PM »
I think long term we'd like to have a Leaf Plus or a Bolt for in state travel and a hybrid SUV for everything else. We have an MDX which gets 23/28 MPG. The hybrid version gets 27-28 MPG all the time.

We don't travel long distances that often but when we do it's nice to have the interior space. And I do tow a utility trailer for camping trips or hardware store trips.

I have access to Leafs at work and drive them often. Nice cars. I toured the Nissan factory and battery factory and they said their aircooled battery chemistry is designed to cope with the heat better than other chemistry.

I'll get back with you on that in about a decade. ;)


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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2020, 06:43:09 PM »
Taycan 4S was announced at $190k in Australia which is actually really reasonable (it converts to about $80k US due to currency, import duties, sales tax, luxury car tax, etc)

The same car costs $105k in the US.

Given how quickly EVs depreciate, a half-price Taycan 4S in a few years' time might get me tempted to switch over. I think the engineering in the Taycan will absolutely destroy anything Tesla can put into its Model S - I'm not talking about straight line speed in particular.

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2020, 11:06:55 PM »
I think the engineering in the Taycan will absolutely destroy anything Tesla can put into its Model S - I'm not talking about straight line speed in particular.

I would not bet on that if I were you. Tesla has been delivering the world's best EVs for years, Porsche is a newbie in the field. I may be biased since I own a Tesla and I think it's a decade ahead of other cars, but I would bet that Tesla delivers a Model S (or Roadster) that is better in most objective measures, and cheaper, before Porsche makes the Taycan available down under.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2020, 11:53:30 PM »
The Roadster will probably be the best electric vehicle on the planet. However, I will reserve judgment on that till we get proper reviews and an unveiling. It keeps being delayed.

The Taycan interior material, dynamic ability, build quality, durability (in terms of repeated launches and high speed sustained ability) are all better than the Model S, according to reviews. I am sure there are other non-performance oriented aspects in which the Tesla is better, like connectivity and autonomous tech/safety.

The Taycan 4S is available later this year so I will be sure to check it out.