Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 810668 times)

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5350 on: September 24, 2024, 03:52:08 PM »
Our '23 Kia Niro [...]

We're currently fussing with the local dealership because the AC charging system overheats and fails if you charge it faster than about 7kW (it's supposed to AC charge at up to 11kW).  DC fast charging is unaffected, and it still charges fine overnight on AC here at home, but it's not as quick as advertised. 

Our problem really showed up at a hotel free charger that was set to offer ~10kW.  It kept overheating and stopping. 

The stupid dealership only has a 1.2kW Level 1 charger, a 6kW Level 2 charger, and a DC fast charger, so of course they say they can't duplicate the problem.

Potentially relevant TSB:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2023/MC-10242579-0001.pdf

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5351 on: September 24, 2024, 03:54:25 PM »
I see several other Niro EV owners complaining about this problem (search for "charging interrupted") and I know my in-laws had the same problem on their Ioniq 5.

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5352 on: September 24, 2024, 04:43:52 PM »
Oh, I know it's a thing as I've seen "charge interrupted" reported by many (and fixed by...one?)   The dealership is just claiming ignorance/can't pull a code/she's female, what does she know.  I have screen shots from our EVSE showing charging speed and also from our OBD showing the AC Inlet port overheating (the faster the charge, the quicker the temp reaches 212 and quits), but the "high voltage certified" tech didn't care to look. 

I don't think it's the ICCU, but I'm open to that possibility, so thanks for the link.

They pushed me off onto their "EV specialist", a very uninformed woman who admitted she knows nothing about charging, or EVs for that matter, but was trying to be helpful by checking in with her contacts.  I emailed her info on another Niro owner's dealership's fix, but of course, she went on vacation.  Since it doesn't affect the driving and I can charge it just fine at slower speeds, I'm trying not to be pushy.  Yet.

AlanStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5353 on: September 24, 2024, 05:45:07 PM »
oh God, in the future we might have to deal with some unholy union of mechanics and IT.  "I got it on the lift and it all looks good to me - have you tried turning it off and back on again when you have the problem"

reeshau

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5354 on: September 25, 2024, 05:44:23 AM »
oh God, in the future we might have to deal with some unholy union of mechanics and IT.  "I got it on the lift and it all looks good to me - have you tried turning it off and back on again when you have the problem"

DW worked with an early version of Windows CE for Automotive, and there definitely was a key map for Ctrl-Alt-Del on the radio.  It was used often!

Come to thunk of it, version 1.0 (yes, really) also had a small flaw--it completely drained the car battery (12V, circa 2001) sitting overnight.

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5355 on: September 25, 2024, 07:06:15 AM »
oh God, in the future we might have to deal with some unholy union of mechanics and IT.  "I got it on the lift and it all looks good to me - have you tried turning it off and back on again when you have the problem"

DW worked with an early version of Windows CE for Automotive, and there definitely was a key map for Ctrl-Alt-Del on the radio.  It was used often!

Come to thunk of it, version 1.0 (yes, really) also had a small flaw--it completely drained the car battery (12V, circa 2001) sitting overnight.


We’re already there.  I have a door latch that isn’t working right on my Rivian gear tunnel. My call with the service center started with “have you done a reset yet”.

If you want a tour into the direction these things are going, look at the details of what VW is getting out of their $5B JV with Rivian.

Rivian (similar to Tesla) has taken the hundreds of small computers and microcontrollers in your typical car and lumped them into 7 larger computers. All peripheral devices are connected into these computers instead of having dedicated controllers. I believe they’re connected with Cat 5.

Apparently this architecture change is a big enough deal to be worth $5B to VW.

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5356 on: September 26, 2024, 12:38:48 PM »
Oh, I know it's a thing as I've seen "charge interrupted" reported by many (and fixed by...one?)   The dealership is just claiming ignorance/can't pull a code/she's female, what does she know.  I have screen shots from our EVSE showing charging speed and also from our OBD showing the AC Inlet port overheating (the faster the charge, the quicker the temp reaches 212 and quits), but the "high voltage certified" tech didn't care to look. 

I don't think it's the ICCU, but I'm open to that possibility, so thanks for the link.

They pushed me off onto their "EV specialist", a very uninformed woman who admitted she knows nothing about charging, or EVs for that matter, but was trying to be helpful by checking in with her contacts.  I emailed her info on another Niro owner's dealership's fix, but of course, she went on vacation.  Since it doesn't affect the driving and I can charge it just fine at slower speeds, I'm trying not to be pushy.  Yet.
Oh good lort...  Per my dealership contact, "Kia Tech" is concerned because we have our 48 amp Emporia EVSE hard wired to a 60 amp breaker.  They're worried somehow that it "pushed" the onboard charger over its limits?  Uh, no.  The car is supposed to charge at 48 amps, and that's all the EVSE will offer.

I sent more screenshots and info off into the abyss.

SciShow did a video on using skyscrapers as water batteries. 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2024, 12:41:05 PM by geekette »

AlanStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5357 on: September 26, 2024, 12:56:32 PM »
Oh, I know it's a thing as I've seen "charge interrupted" reported by many (and fixed by...one?)   The dealership is just claiming ignorance/can't pull a code/she's female, what does she know.  I have screen shots from our EVSE showing charging speed and also from our OBD showing the AC Inlet port overheating (the faster the charge, the quicker the temp reaches 212 and quits), but the "high voltage certified" tech didn't care to look. 

I don't think it's the ICCU, but I'm open to that possibility, so thanks for the link.

They pushed me off onto their "EV specialist", a very uninformed woman who admitted she knows nothing about charging, or EVs for that matter, but was trying to be helpful by checking in with her contacts.  I emailed her info on another Niro owner's dealership's fix, but of course, she went on vacation.  Since it doesn't affect the driving and I can charge it just fine at slower speeds, I'm trying not to be pushy.  Yet.
Oh good lort...  Per my dealership contact, "Kia Tech" is concerned because we have our 48 amp Emporia EVSE hard wired to a 60 amp breaker.  They're worried somehow that it "pushed" the onboard charger over its limits?  Uh, no.  The car is supposed to charge at 48 amps, and that's all the EVSE will offer.

I sent more screenshots and info off into the abyss.

SciShow did a video on using skyscrapers as water batteries.

Note - read the youtube comments before wasting time on the video. 
TLDR - except for pumped hydro into natural basins, gravity batteries are dumb.

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5358 on: September 26, 2024, 01:04:45 PM »
Oh, I know it's a thing as I've seen "charge interrupted" reported by many (and fixed by...one?)   The dealership is just claiming ignorance/can't pull a code/she's female, what does she know.  I have screen shots from our EVSE showing charging speed and also from our OBD showing the AC Inlet port overheating (the faster the charge, the quicker the temp reaches 212 and quits), but the "high voltage certified" tech didn't care to look. 

I don't think it's the ICCU, but I'm open to that possibility, so thanks for the link.

They pushed me off onto their "EV specialist", a very uninformed woman who admitted she knows nothing about charging, or EVs for that matter, but was trying to be helpful by checking in with her contacts.  I emailed her info on another Niro owner's dealership's fix, but of course, she went on vacation.  Since it doesn't affect the driving and I can charge it just fine at slower speeds, I'm trying not to be pushy.  Yet.
Oh good lort...  Per my dealership contact, "Kia Tech" is concerned because we have our 48 amp Emporia EVSE hard wired to a 60 amp breaker.  They're worried somehow that it "pushed" the onboard charger over its limits?  Uh, no.  The car is supposed to charge at 48 amps, and that's all the EVSE will offer.

I sent more screenshots and info off into the abyss.
But that is correct... I would be concerned if the breaker was not 60 amps! There is supposed to be that overhead for sustained loads.

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5359 on: September 26, 2024, 01:12:39 PM »
Oh good lort...  Per my dealership contact, "Kia Tech" is concerned because we have our 48 amp Emporia EVSE hard wired to a 60 amp breaker.  They're worried somehow that it "pushed" the onboard charger over its limits?  Uh, no.  The car is supposed to charge at 48 amps, and that's all the EVSE will offer.
But that is correct... I would be concerned if the breaker was not 60 amps! There is supposed to be that overhead for sustained loads.
Well, you know that, and I know that, but I really have to wonder about "Kia Tech" if they don't know that.  SRSLY?

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5360 on: September 26, 2024, 01:16:20 PM »
Oh good lort...  Per my dealership contact, "Kia Tech" is concerned because we have our 48 amp Emporia EVSE hard wired to a 60 amp breaker.  They're worried somehow that it "pushed" the onboard charger over its limits?  Uh, no.  The car is supposed to charge at 48 amps, and that's all the EVSE will offer.
But that is correct... I would be concerned if the breaker was not 60 amps! There is supposed to be that overhead for sustained loads.
Well, you know that, and I know that, but I really have to wonder about "Kia Tech" if they don't know that.  SRSLY?
Yeah, that is seriously electricity 101. They are definitely not qualified to troubleshoot EV-specific issues .

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5361 on: September 26, 2024, 03:02:34 PM »
Oh, I know it's a thing as I've seen "charge interrupted" reported by many (and fixed by...one?)   The dealership is just claiming ignorance/can't pull a code/she's female, what does she know.  I have screen shots from our EVSE showing charging speed and also from our OBD showing the AC Inlet port overheating (the faster the charge, the quicker the temp reaches 212 and quits), but the "high voltage certified" tech didn't care to look. 

I don't think it's the ICCU, but I'm open to that possibility, so thanks for the link.

They pushed me off onto their "EV specialist", a very uninformed woman who admitted she knows nothing about charging, or EVs for that matter, but was trying to be helpful by checking in with her contacts.  I emailed her info on another Niro owner's dealership's fix, but of course, she went on vacation.  Since it doesn't affect the driving and I can charge it just fine at slower speeds, I'm trying not to be pushy.  Yet.
Oh good lort...  Per my dealership contact, "Kia Tech" is concerned because we have our 48 amp Emporia EVSE hard wired to a 60 amp breaker.  They're worried somehow that it "pushed" the onboard charger over its limits?  Uh, no.  The car is supposed to charge at 48 amps, and that's all the EVSE will offer.

I sent more screenshots and info off into the abyss.

SciShow did a video on using skyscrapers as water batteries.

I don't know Kia's specific challenges, but I know Rivians have a thermal issue when charging at their fully rated 11kW.  11kW is normally fine, but it can cause some thermal issues when it's super hot out, and it derates to 9.6kW. 

If it were me, I'd just slightly derate the max amperage the car is charging at (if that's an option) and call it a day.  Lower amperage doesn't hurt anything, and will likely solve any thermal issues you might be having. 

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5362 on: September 26, 2024, 11:29:39 PM »
SciShow did a video on using skyscrapers as water batteries.
Without watching I can tell you:
A) Using an existing skyscraper (that is used) is very dumb, because those things always lack space anyway and are not build for that weight, so the results are minuscle.
B) Building one is even dumber because it's hideously expensive to build a high building that has to sustain a lot of pressure. Not to mention that when anything happens and the thing explodes, I hope it's far away from anyone.

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5363 on: September 27, 2024, 06:22:58 AM »
I don't know Kia's specific challenges, but I know Rivians have a thermal issue when charging at their fully rated 11kW.  11kW is normally fine, but it can cause some thermal issues when it's super hot out, and it derates to 9.6kW. 

If it were me, I'd just slightly derate the max amperage the car is charging at (if that's an option) and call it a day.  Lower amperage doesn't hurt anything, and will likely solve any thermal issues you might be having.
Sure, we derated the EVSE so the car wouldn't stop charging.  Then we had to derate it again.  The max charging amperage is getting lower and is now down to 7amps, which is lower than many free L2s.  So now we have to lower the max charging speed in the car to 90%, sometimes 60% (the only options), depending on location.

Is it too much to ask that the car perform as sold?

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5364 on: September 27, 2024, 12:40:22 PM »
I don't know Kia's specific challenges, but I know Rivians have a thermal issue when charging at their fully rated 11kW.  11kW is normally fine, but it can cause some thermal issues when it's super hot out, and it derates to 9.6kW. 

If it were me, I'd just slightly derate the max amperage the car is charging at (if that's an option) and call it a day.  Lower amperage doesn't hurt anything, and will likely solve any thermal issues you might be having.
Sure, we derated the EVSE so the car wouldn't stop charging.  Then we had to derate it again.  The max charging amperage is getting lower and is now down to 7amps, which is lower than many free L2s.  So now we have to lower the max charging speed in the car to 90%, sometimes 60% (the only options), depending on location.

Is it too much to ask that the car perform as sold?


Yea, that’s not right. I missed that bit of context earlier in the thread.

I’d shrug my shoulders if I was trying for 11kW but occasionally had to go down to 9 to avoid sporadic issues.

I’d insist on a fix if it was a continually worsening issue and had trouble delivering 6kW.

The nature of that problem sounds like a poor electrical connection somewhere between the plug and the battery. Poor connections create heat and lower current.



NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5367 on: October 01, 2024, 12:55:33 PM »
I figured I'd share a few online threads about how EV's are helping people dealing with natural disasters right now:


https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsg0hr/power_outage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsw8s4/my_family_is_safe_and_fed_thanks_to_my_lightning/
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/video-lightning-owner-powering-his-home-after-hurricane-helene.21601/ (video only briefly touches on the EV aspect)
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/powering-appliances-during-hurricane-helena.21540/
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r1t-max-pack-powering-my-house-thanks-hurricane-helene.33502/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1ftadke/new_color_options_for_hurricane_helene_survivors/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1fsmf66/rivian_for_the_win_over_helene/

That's impressive.  EV's are also better in flood conditions because the battery and motors are sealed and thus able to wade through water much better than an ICE car.

That second-to-last link is someone that clearly decided to send-it in a way that no ICE vehicle could have done without a snorkel.  And possibly lethal consequences in most other vehicles. 

I hope Rivian and Ford lean into this with in some of their marketing.  The ability to power things for long duration in a disaster is a huge selling point that the general public doesn't understand.  Even having a 1,500W inverter is an 80% solution to most people's emergency needs.  That will keep your refrigerator and a key devices running for at least 3-5 days with a typical EV.  Over a week with a large EV. 

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5368 on: October 01, 2024, 06:04:20 PM »
I just hope Ford's other vehicles start having power offloading capabilities that don't involve a sketchy DIY tie-in to the 5kW resistance heater circuit.

jinga nation

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5369 on: October 01, 2024, 06:56:10 PM »
I figured I'd share a few online threads about how EV's are helping people dealing with natural disasters right now:


https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsg0hr/power_outage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsw8s4/my_family_is_safe_and_fed_thanks_to_my_lightning/
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/video-lightning-owner-powering-his-home-after-hurricane-helene.21601/ (video only briefly touches on the EV aspect)
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/powering-appliances-during-hurricane-helena.21540/
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r1t-max-pack-powering-my-house-thanks-hurricane-helene.33502/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1ftadke/new_color_options_for_hurricane_helene_survivors/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1fsmf66/rivian_for_the_win_over_helene/

That's impressive.  EV's are also better in flood conditions because the battery and motors are sealed and thus able to wade through water much better than an ICE car.

There's been quite a few reports around my area of Tesla vehicles' batteries exploding when flooded in saltwater due to flooding from Hurricane Helene.
Example 1: https://www.cltampa.com/tampa/photos-tesla-damaged-by-hurricane-helene-is-likely-cause-of-davis-island-house-fire/Slideshow/18679790
Example 2: https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/weather/hurricane/2024/10/01/hurricane-helene-tesla-fire-breaks-out-in-flooded-florida-garage/75469839007/
« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 06:57:50 PM by jinga nation »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5370 on: October 02, 2024, 03:25:37 AM »
Ford's 7.2kw Pro Power Onboard option is also available on the F150 Powerboost hybrid. Plenty of stories about those powering homes in recent years as well. They can of course be refueled with gasoline to run until your fuel supply goes out.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 03:29:36 AM by Paper Chaser »

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5371 on: October 02, 2024, 06:20:36 AM »
Ford's 7.2kw Pro Power Onboard option is also available on the F150 Powerboost hybrid. Plenty of stories about those powering homes in recent years as well. They can of course be refueled with gasoline to run until your fuel supply goes out.

True, but there’s still a sizeable difference in capabilities.

Running an ICE vehicle as a generator seems to typically drain a full gas tank in about a day.

I know the hybrid is somewhat better than this, but I believe we’re talking about extending it to 2 days ish.

Those with 50kWh-140kWh batteries in EV’s are powering critical appliances (not their whole house) for anywhere between 3 days to over a week.

As a general rule, it’s typically easier to find a place with electricity in an emergency than it is to find a place with electricity and gasoline.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5372 on: October 02, 2024, 07:28:06 AM »
Ford's 7.2kw Pro Power Onboard option is also available on the F150 Powerboost hybrid. Plenty of stories about those powering homes in recent years as well. They can of course be refueled with gasoline to run until your fuel supply goes out.

True, but there’s still a sizeable difference in capabilities.

Running an ICE vehicle as a generator seems to typically drain a full gas tank in about a day.

I know the hybrid is somewhat better than this, but I believe we’re talking about extending it to 2 days ish.

Those with 50kWh-140kWh batteries in EV’s are powering critical appliances (not their whole house) for anywhere between 3 days to over a week.

As a general rule, it’s typically easier to find a place with electricity in an emergency than it is to find a place with electricity and gasoline.

Ford says 32 hours of constant runtime for the hybrid with Pro Power Onboard. Anecdotes online are saying as little as 1/4 tank per day though. If you can find fuel, you can probably be filled back up and running again in a matter of a few minutes. Or it can be topped off with gas cans that most people have around the house, so you'd never have to interrupt your backup power. To charge the Lightning back up, you have to disconnect with enough capacity to drive to the electricity, then take whatever amount of time is required to recharge, then drive back home and reconnect. You're talking about hours, or days if all you can find is level 1. Especially with the big battery pack. And as we've seen with bad storms or cold snaps, public EV chargers tend to be a mess in these situations as they struggle to provide enough throughput for the demand surge.

Neither option is perfect. Both have distinct advantages and disadvantages. But either one is better than nothing when you're in that situation.

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5373 on: October 02, 2024, 07:43:25 AM »
Ford's 7.2kw Pro Power Onboard option is also available on the F150 Powerboost hybrid. Plenty of stories about those powering homes in recent years as well. They can of course be refueled with gasoline to run until your fuel supply goes out.

True, but there’s still a sizeable difference in capabilities.

Running an ICE vehicle as a generator seems to typically drain a full gas tank in about a day.

I know the hybrid is somewhat better than this, but I believe we’re talking about extending it to 2 days ish.

Those with 50kWh-140kWh batteries in EV’s are powering critical appliances (not their whole house) for anywhere between 3 days to over a week.

As a general rule, it’s typically easier to find a place with electricity in an emergency than it is to find a place with electricity and gasoline.

Ford says 32 hours of constant runtime for the hybrid with Pro Power Onboard. Anecdotes online are saying as little as 1/4 tank per day though. If you can find fuel, you can probably be filled back up and running again in a matter of a few minutes. Or it can be topped off with gas cans that most people have around the house, so you'd never have to interrupt your backup power. To charge the Lightning back up, you have to disconnect with enough capacity to drive to the electricity, then take whatever amount of time is required to recharge, then drive back home and reconnect. You're talking about hours, or days if all you can find is level 1. Especially with the big battery pack. And as we've seen with bad storms or cold snaps, public EV chargers tend to be a mess in these situations as they struggle to provide enough throughput for the demand surge.

Neither option is perfect. Both have distinct advantages and disadvantages. But either one is better than nothing when you're in that situation.


Very true.

One thing I’m watching closely is true availability of V2H technology. I’d say we’re 1-3 years away from it being broadly available to upper-middle class households.

Many of the EV’s produced today are technically capable of V2H, but the holdup is on the special chargers, electric code, and trained contractors.

I did the math on my home, and paired with a solar system, I could power my home indefinitely for 3 seasons.  Winter would be anywhere from a day to multiple weeks, depending on the weather (since I use a heat pump).


geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5374 on: October 02, 2024, 07:56:56 AM »
Reports yesterday of Electrify America chargers up and running in Asheville.  The only difficulty was weaving through the hours long lines of cars waiting for gas.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5375 on: October 02, 2024, 08:00:41 AM »
I figured I'd share a few online threads about how EV's are helping people dealing with natural disasters right now:


https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsg0hr/power_outage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsw8s4/my_family_is_safe_and_fed_thanks_to_my_lightning/
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/video-lightning-owner-powering-his-home-after-hurricane-helene.21601/ (video only briefly touches on the EV aspect)
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/powering-appliances-during-hurricane-helena.21540/
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r1t-max-pack-powering-my-house-thanks-hurricane-helene.33502/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1ftadke/new_color_options_for_hurricane_helene_survivors/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1fsmf66/rivian_for_the_win_over_helene/

That's impressive.  EV's are also better in flood conditions because the battery and motors are sealed and thus able to wade through water much better than an ICE car.

There's been quite a few reports around my area of Tesla vehicles' batteries exploding when flooded in saltwater due to flooding from Hurricane Helene.
Example 1: https://www.cltampa.com/tampa/photos-tesla-damaged-by-hurricane-helene-is-likely-cause-of-davis-island-house-fire/Slideshow/18679790
Example 2: https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/weather/hurricane/2024/10/01/hurricane-helene-tesla-fire-breaks-out-in-flooded-florida-garage/75469839007/

What exactly are the mechanisms of these batteries catching on fire?  Because you've got images of EVs that have been driving through roof deep water apparently with no harm, and then stories of EVs exploding into flames after being touched by salt water.  I don't get it.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5376 on: October 02, 2024, 08:49:23 AM »
Sodium (salt) is a conductor. When a battery is submerged in salt water is can cause shorts. Enough shorts and you can end up with thermal runaway. And when the water recedes, the salt can stay behind and cause problems much later.

https://qz.com/saltwater-evs-electric-cars-fire-hurricane-helene-1851661611#:~:text=Saltwater%20poses%20an%20especially%20serious,the%20issue%20has%20proven%20challenging.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5377 on: October 02, 2024, 10:38:04 AM »
Sodium (salt) is a conductor. When a battery is submerged in salt water is can cause shorts. Enough shorts and you can end up with thermal runaway. And when the water recedes, the salt can stay behind and cause problems much later.

https://qz.com/saltwater-evs-electric-cars-fire-hurricane-helene-1851661611#:~:text=Saltwater%20poses%20an%20especially%20serious,the%20issue%20has%20proven%20challenging.

So from that article it sounds like any EV that has been submerged in salt water is a potential ticking time bomb?

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5378 on: October 02, 2024, 10:45:20 AM »
I figured I'd share a few online threads about how EV's are helping people dealing with natural disasters right now:


https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsg0hr/power_outage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsw8s4/my_family_is_safe_and_fed_thanks_to_my_lightning/
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/video-lightning-owner-powering-his-home-after-hurricane-helene.21601/ (video only briefly touches on the EV aspect)
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/powering-appliances-during-hurricane-helena.21540/
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r1t-max-pack-powering-my-house-thanks-hurricane-helene.33502/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1ftadke/new_color_options_for_hurricane_helene_survivors/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1fsmf66/rivian_for_the_win_over_helene/

That's impressive.  EV's are also better in flood conditions because the battery and motors are sealed and thus able to wade through water much better than an ICE car.

There's been quite a few reports around my area of Tesla vehicles' batteries exploding when flooded in saltwater due to flooding from Hurricane Helene.
Example 1: https://www.cltampa.com/tampa/photos-tesla-damaged-by-hurricane-helene-is-likely-cause-of-davis-island-house-fire/Slideshow/18679790
Example 2: https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/weather/hurricane/2024/10/01/hurricane-helene-tesla-fire-breaks-out-in-flooded-florida-garage/75469839007/

What exactly are the mechanisms of these batteries catching on fire?  Because you've got images of EVs that have been driving through roof deep water apparently with no harm, and then stories of EVs exploding into flames after being touched by salt water.  I don't get it.


The combination of saltwater and battery components (or anything electrical) is bad.  It leads to sparky and boomy things.

The components on EV’s are designed to be pretty water tight, so it’s not normally an issue.

But if you leave anything submerged in saltwater for long periods, water will work its way through the waterproofing.


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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5379 on: October 02, 2024, 11:23:04 AM »
Sodium (salt) is a conductor. When a battery is submerged in salt water is can cause shorts. Enough shorts and you can end up with thermal runaway. And when the water recedes, the salt can stay behind and cause problems much later.

https://qz.com/saltwater-evs-electric-cars-fire-hurricane-helene-1851661611#:~:text=Saltwater%20poses%20an%20especially%20serious,the%20issue%20has%20proven%20challenging.

So from that article it sounds like any EV that has been submerged in salt water is a potential ticking time bomb?
Some prefer being eaten by a shark, many people are saying!

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5380 on: October 02, 2024, 11:41:32 AM »
I figured I'd share a few online threads about how EV's are helping people dealing with natural disasters right now:


https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsg0hr/power_outage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/F150Lightning/comments/1fsw8s4/my_family_is_safe_and_fed_thanks_to_my_lightning/
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/video-lightning-owner-powering-his-home-after-hurricane-helene.21601/ (video only briefly touches on the EV aspect)
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/powering-appliances-during-hurricane-helena.21540/
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r1t-max-pack-powering-my-house-thanks-hurricane-helene.33502/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1ftadke/new_color_options_for_hurricane_helene_survivors/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1fsmf66/rivian_for_the_win_over_helene/

That's impressive.  EV's are also better in flood conditions because the battery and motors are sealed and thus able to wade through water much better than an ICE car.

There's been quite a few reports around my area of Tesla vehicles' batteries exploding when flooded in saltwater due to flooding from Hurricane Helene.
Example 1: https://www.cltampa.com/tampa/photos-tesla-damaged-by-hurricane-helene-is-likely-cause-of-davis-island-house-fire/Slideshow/18679790
Example 2: https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/weather/hurricane/2024/10/01/hurricane-helene-tesla-fire-breaks-out-in-flooded-florida-garage/75469839007/

How are other EVs venting their batteries? Tesla uses these little umbrella seals that vent directly to the exterior of the battery box. Seems like an inevitable failure point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtWf6aw8c_Q

I did not spy any exterior facing seals on the Nissan Leaf I was under. I think our Kona is the same. Maybe the vents are under the back seat and better protected?

I'm not faced with salt water intrusion risks b/c we live states away from the ocean.

However we do park next to the house while charging. What to do if the car did suffer from thermal runaway?

This is all the encouragement I needed to purchase a tow hitch which would allow me to carry our bikes to the nearby mtns or parks. The EV would be parked nose in to the house making the hitch easy access to a tow strap.

Do I ever think this would happen? No. Why not be prepared? Like seat belts or air bags. 

Also setup with a ~1500W inverter to clip on the 12V battery. Kia and Hyundai have "utility mode" similar to "dog mode" in other EVs. That keeps the 12V charged indefinitely.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 12:01:17 PM by Just Joe »

GilesMM

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5381 on: October 03, 2024, 07:08:54 AM »
Tesla prices really have dropped.  Decent used Model S are now under $15,000 (e.g. 10 years old, 90k), which is a lot less than many similar gas-powered vehicles.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5382 on: October 03, 2024, 10:37:25 AM »
Our two EV's are part of my emergency preparedness now that our house is fully electric. We removed the gas fire place as part of getting off gas and haven't installed a wood burner yet. My plan for an extended winter power outage is to crank the seat heaters and plug in the little induction cook plate and make myself soup and tea.

I may still install a wood stove after the winter. But for now I am going to challenge my emotional need of security from conditioning growing up in rural Ottawa Valley and the regular ice storms every winter. I now live in a city that seems to dodge a lot of weather events and in the last 10 years winter power outages haven't lasted more than 24 hours.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5383 on: October 03, 2024, 12:25:29 PM »
We felt pretty good about our emergency plan and gear. Outages were trending less frequent than when we first moved in. Then our area had an ice storm to remind us anything was possible - but we only lost power for some hours. House gen picked up the slack. Friend however - lives further out into country - lost power and thus heat for a week. Stayed with us.

Was a solid reminder that though we rarely see that kind of weather, having a plan is still worthwhile - even if only candles and a campstove. Friend had zero failback plan. Still doesn't. We are their fallback. And that is fine - if I can reach them b/c they are too old to walk out in those conditions. And we don't mind.

All it takes is switching on the evening news to see reasons to have a plan - even basic, even if it is money and vehicle enough to "GTFO" before the storm arrives. I don't want to rely on the feds or charity groups to provide for us if we can provide for ourselves. Let them focus on the many low income people who might not have resources.

Good to have a big portable battery on wheels that can help if the generator fails for some reason.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2024, 12:36:05 PM by Just Joe »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5384 on: October 03, 2024, 03:43:21 PM »

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5385 on: October 03, 2024, 03:59:40 PM »
We felt pretty good about our emergency plan and gear. Outages were trending less frequent than when we first moved in. Then our area had an ice storm to remind us anything was possible - but we only lost power for some hours. House gen picked up the slack. Friend however - lives further out into country - lost power and thus heat for a week. Stayed with us.

Was a solid reminder that though we rarely see that kind of weather, having a plan is still worthwhile - even if only candles and a campstove. Friend had zero failback plan. Still doesn't. We are their fallback. And that is fine - if I can reach them b/c they are too old to walk out in those conditions. And we don't mind.

All it takes is switching on the evening news to see reasons to have a plan - even basic, even if it is money and vehicle enough to "GTFO" before the storm arrives. I don't want to rely on the feds or charity groups to provide for us if we can provide for ourselves. Let them focus on the many low income people who might not have resources.

Good to have a big portable battery on wheels that can help if the generator fails for some reason.


Agreed. It doesn’t take a lot to have a contingency plan, and it doesn’t have to involve going full prepped.


My EV can power my fridge, freezer, and other small devices for over a week. Alternatively, it could power a space heater (and nothing else) for a couple days.

For cooking, I could use my induction cooktop, my propane bbq, or my backpacking stove.

I’m knowledgeable enough to get most of the water from my water heater. I also have a backpacking water filter and live close enough to a small urban stream. 

I don’t specifically have food stockpiled, but my pantry always has enough in it to last for a while, even if it’s odd cooking.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5386 on: October 03, 2024, 04:12:11 PM »
Tesla prices really have dropped.  Decent used Model S are now under $15,000 (e.g. 10 years old, 90k), which is a lot less than many similar gas-powered vehicles.

That's not abnormal depreciation for 10 year old luxury sedans. Looking at some of the Model S competition with similar age and mileage shows even more depreciation.
2014 Audi A6 with 41k miles for $15k:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicle/715695076?allListingType=all-cars&channel=ATC&city=Chicago&endYear=2014&facetMinCount=3&firstRecord=25&makeCode=AUDI&mileage=100000&modelCode=A6&newSearch=false&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fall-cars%2F2014%2Faudi%2Fa6%2Fchicago-il%3Fchannel%3DATC%26facetMinCount%3D3%26mileage%3D100000%26newSearch%3Dtrue%26searchRadius%3D0%26sortBy%3DderivedpriceASC%26zip%3D60601&searchRadius=0&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&startYear=2014&state=IL&zip=60601&clickType=listing

2014 Cadillac CTS AWD with 54k miles for $13k:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicle/718537868?allListingType=all-cars&channel=ATC&city=Chicago&endYear=2014&facetMinCount=3&makeCode=CAD&mileage=100000&modelCode=CTS&newSearch=false&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fall-cars%2F2014%2Fcadillac%2Fcts%2Fchicago-il%3Fchannel%3DATC%26facetMinCount%3D3%26mileage%3D100000%26newSearch%3Dtrue%26searchRadius%3D0%26sortBy%3DderivedpriceASC%26zip%3D60601&searchRadius=0&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&startYear=2014&state=IL&zip=60601&clickType=listing

The A6 and CTS were $45k-$60k cars when new. The Model S was $70k-$110k, definitely a price class above. That said I can also find 2014 Audi A8 cars for sale for under $15k as well, and those would have been in the $80-$100k range when new.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5387 on: October 03, 2024, 04:54:32 PM »
We felt pretty good about our emergency plan and gear. Outages were trending less frequent than when we first moved in. Then our area had an ice storm to remind us anything was possible - but we only lost power for some hours. House gen picked up the slack. Friend however - lives further out into country - lost power and thus heat for a week. Stayed with us.

Was a solid reminder that though we rarely see that kind of weather, having a plan is still worthwhile - even if only candles and a campstove. Friend had zero failback plan. Still doesn't. We are their fallback. And that is fine - if I can reach them b/c they are too old to walk out in those conditions. And we don't mind.

All it takes is switching on the evening news to see reasons to have a plan - even basic, even if it is money and vehicle enough to "GTFO" before the storm arrives. I don't want to rely on the feds or charity groups to provide for us if we can provide for ourselves. Let them focus on the many low income people who might not have resources.

Good to have a big portable battery on wheels that can help if the generator fails for some reason.


Agreed. It doesn’t take a lot to have a contingency plan, and it doesn’t have to involve going full prepped.


My EV can power my fridge, freezer, and other small devices for over a week. Alternatively, it could power a space heater (and nothing else) for a couple days.

For cooking, I could use my induction cooktop, my propane bbq, or my backpacking stove.

I’m knowledgeable enough to get most of the water from my water heater. I also have a backpacking water filter and live close enough to a small urban stream. 

I don’t specifically have food stockpiled, but my pantry always has enough in it to last for a while, even if it’s odd cooking.

We live in a storm-prone area.  Flooding is common.  High winds are also common, and while our electricity usually only suffers short outages, sometimes they can be days or longer.  So when I hear people talking about being fully electrified and using their EV for back-up, I have to worry a bit for them.

Over years of events, I’ve learned that good back-up contains many different options. Passive solar, fireplace wood, and extra blankets to stay warm?  Yes, please.  Generator, extra gas, and solar for power generation?  Yes, please.  Flashlights, extra batteries, gas lanterns, extra gas, and candles for light?  Yes, please.  Propane BBQ, propane camp stove, charcoal grill, and wood fire grill for cooking?  Yes please.  Bottled water, filtered stream water, and rain water for water?  Yes please.  Gravity for sewer and rain drains?  Yes please, and no back-up needed for gravity!

The EV solution could be very helpful for a few days of outage, but if it’s going to be longer than that, you’ve just consumed your energy for transportation out of the area to buy a few days of cooking, heat, and charging your phone.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5388 on: October 04, 2024, 02:03:26 PM »
Tesla prices really have dropped.  Decent used Model S are now under $15,000 (e.g. 10 years old, 90k), which is a lot less than many similar gas-powered vehicles.

That's not abnormal depreciation for 10 year old luxury sedans. Looking at some of the Model S competition with similar age and mileage shows even more depreciation.

The A6 and CTS were $45k-$60k cars when new. The Model S was $70k-$110k, definitely a price class above. That said I can also find 2014 Audi A8 cars for sale for under $15k as well, and those would have been in the $80-$100k range when new.

True enough, but the A8 and other full size sedans are quite a bit larger and had more features than the Model S so I went with the vehicles that were similar size and features over similar MSRP. Point stands either way I think. Luxury sedans all depreciate heavily. That makes them a bad purchase initially, but can be appealing to Mustachians looking for a deal in the sweet spot of the depreciation curve.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5389 on: October 06, 2024, 05:11:00 PM »
We felt pretty good about our emergency plan and gear. Outages were trending less frequent than when we first moved in. Then our area had an ice storm to remind us anything was possible - but we only lost power for some hours. House gen picked up the slack. Friend however - lives further out into country - lost power and thus heat for a week. Stayed with us.

Was a solid reminder that though we rarely see that kind of weather, having a plan is still worthwhile - even if only candles and a campstove. Friend had zero failback plan. Still doesn't. We are their fallback. And that is fine - if I can reach them b/c they are too old to walk out in those conditions. And we don't mind.

All it takes is switching on the evening news to see reasons to have a plan - even basic, even if it is money and vehicle enough to "GTFO" before the storm arrives. I don't want to rely on the feds or charity groups to provide for us if we can provide for ourselves. Let them focus on the many low income people who might not have resources.

Good to have a big portable battery on wheels that can help if the generator fails for some reason.


Agreed. It doesn’t take a lot to have a contingency plan, and it doesn’t have to involve going full prepped.


My EV can power my fridge, freezer, and other small devices for over a week. Alternatively, it could power a space heater (and nothing else) for a couple days.

For cooking, I could use my induction cooktop, my propane bbq, or my backpacking stove.

I’m knowledgeable enough to get most of the water from my water heater. I also have a backpacking water filter and live close enough to a small urban stream. 

I don’t specifically have food stockpiled, but my pantry always has enough in it to last for a while, even if it’s odd cooking.

We live in a storm-prone area.  Flooding is common.  High winds are also common, and while our electricity usually only suffers short outages, sometimes they can be days or longer.  So when I hear people talking about being fully electrified and using their EV for back-up, I have to worry a bit for them.

Over years of events, I’ve learned that good back-up contains many different options. Passive solar, fireplace wood, and extra blankets to stay warm?  Yes, please.  Generator, extra gas, and solar for power generation?  Yes, please.  Flashlights, extra batteries, gas lanterns, extra gas, and candles for light?  Yes, please.  Propane BBQ, propane camp stove, charcoal grill, and wood fire grill for cooking?  Yes please.  Bottled water, filtered stream water, and rain water for water?  Yes please.  Gravity for sewer and rain drains?  Yes please, and no back-up needed for gravity!

The EV solution could be very helpful for a few days of outage, but if it’s going to be longer than that, you’ve just consumed your energy for transportation out of the area to buy a few days of cooking, heat, and charging your phone.

We have 5 cars at our house when our offspring are at home. If the EV is discharged completely, and we need to leave, out comes the V6 SUV.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5390 on: October 06, 2024, 05:14:08 PM »
We felt pretty good about our emergency plan and gear. Outages were trending less frequent than when we first moved in. Then our area had an ice storm to remind us anything was possible - but we only lost power for some hours. House gen picked up the slack. Friend however - lives further out into country - lost power and thus heat for a week. Stayed with us.

Was a solid reminder that though we rarely see that kind of weather, having a plan is still worthwhile - even if only candles and a campstove. Friend had zero failback plan. Still doesn't. We are their fallback. And that is fine - if I can reach them b/c they are too old to walk out in those conditions. And we don't mind.

All it takes is switching on the evening news to see reasons to have a plan - even basic, even if it is money and vehicle enough to "GTFO" before the storm arrives. I don't want to rely on the feds or charity groups to provide for us if we can provide for ourselves. Let them focus on the many low income people who might not have resources.

Good to have a big portable battery on wheels that can help if the generator fails for some reason.


Agreed. It doesn’t take a lot to have a contingency plan, and it doesn’t have to involve going full prepped.


My EV can power my fridge, freezer, and other small devices for over a week. Alternatively, it could power a space heater (and nothing else) for a couple days.

For cooking, I could use my induction cooktop, my propane bbq, or my backpacking stove.

I’m knowledgeable enough to get most of the water from my water heater. I also have a backpacking water filter and live close enough to a small urban stream. 

I don’t specifically have food stockpiled, but my pantry always has enough in it to last for a while, even if it’s odd cooking.

We live in a storm-prone area.  Flooding is common.  High winds are also common, and while our electricity usually only suffers short outages, sometimes they can be days or longer.  So when I hear people talking about being fully electrified and using their EV for back-up, I have to worry a bit for them.

Over years of events, I’ve learned that good back-up contains many different options. Passive solar, fireplace wood, and extra blankets to stay warm?  Yes, please.  Generator, extra gas, and solar for power generation?  Yes, please.  Flashlights, extra batteries, gas lanterns, extra gas, and candles for light?  Yes, please.  Propane BBQ, propane camp stove, charcoal grill, and wood fire grill for cooking?  Yes please.  Bottled water, filtered stream water, and rain water for water?  Yes please.  Gravity for sewer and rain drains?  Yes please, and no back-up needed for gravity!

The EV solution could be very helpful for a few days of outage, but if it’s going to be longer than that, you’ve just consumed your energy for transportation out of the area to buy a few days of cooking, heat, and charging your phone.

We have 5 cars at our house when our offspring are at home. If the EV is discharged completely, and we need to leave, out comes the V6 SUV.

Yep, between roommates we have an assortment of EVs, ICE cars, and a diesel van.  Add the 11kw natural gas standby generator and we're about as good as anyone could reasonably get.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5391 on: October 08, 2024, 11:51:11 AM »
Similar generator as well.

neo von retorch

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5392 on: October 08, 2024, 08:12:59 PM »
https://insideevs.com/news/736426/chevy-silverado-ev-2025-range/

Two key points:

1. 492 mile range on the $77K WT
2. $57K WT (coming soon)

But I believe WT are commercial only though.

$75k for the 408 mile LT is still a lot of cash to plunk down for a truck.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5393 on: October 09, 2024, 06:01:12 AM »
Someone I know socially bought a Silverado used from Hertz for a huge discount.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5394 on: October 09, 2024, 07:15:12 AM »
Someone I know socially bought a Silverado used from Hertz for a huge discount.

Hertz is selling their EV Silverados already? Where'd they find it?

Edit: well that was easy
https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-truck.htm?geoZip=07011&geoRadius=0&normalFuelType=Electric&sortBy=internetPrice%20asc
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 07:18:45 AM by JLee »

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5395 on: October 09, 2024, 08:49:09 AM »
Yep, you found them.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5396 on: October 09, 2024, 09:20:57 AM »
Silverado EV's really only get 1.5 miles per kwh?

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5397 on: October 09, 2024, 11:13:01 AM »
Silverado EV's really only get 1.5 miles per kwh?

Wow, that's the same as the new Hummer EV supposedly gets.
Speaking of which, I was in a traffic jam next to a brand new Hummer EV.  Massive vehicle.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5398 on: October 09, 2024, 11:31:49 AM »
Silverado EV's really only get 1.5 miles per kwh?

Wow, that's the same as the new Hummer EV supposedly gets.
Speaking of which, I was in a traffic jam next to a brand new Hummer EV.  Massive vehicle.

They're the same platform, so it tracks that they'd be similarly inefficient.

They might appear to be massive hulks, but they're no larger than any other 4 door half ton pickup when measured. They're the same length and height as a Rivian R1T, just wider.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 11:34:39 AM by Paper Chaser »

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #5399 on: October 09, 2024, 11:44:17 AM »
Silverado EV's really only get 1.5 miles per kwh?

Wow, that's the same as the new Hummer EV supposedly gets.
Speaking of which, I was in a traffic jam next to a brand new Hummer EV.  Massive vehicle.

They're the same platform, so it tracks that they'd be similarly inefficient.

They might appear to be massive hulks, but they're no larger than any other 4 door half ton pickup when measured. They're the same length and height as a Rivian R1T, just wider.

The width is what jumped out to me, as I was stopped directly behind its bumper for a good 20 minutes. To me they seem more like tall/wide SUVs than anything comparable to a pickup, even if the platform is the same/similar.


 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!