Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[AccidentialMustache]

For Ford drivers, if you buy one of the 3rd party supercharger->ccs adapters, you can charge a mustang/lightning today at a v3/4 supercharger. I don't know where your manufacturer is on actually getting on the network, but you might want to look and consider. It might make the dicey parts trivial.

[SpareChange]

Rumblings that the Model 2 may have been cancelled.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-tesla-scraps-low-cost-150726195.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANTLa4_RsKOuzksl1AtGqE40eCBAU4nLOSfDPKnTl90FNOmt8PvMPervTHvEbGQqoD5SjT7PHT31YCMTytZdeMZQkk3kmYtzPHSf09FVOzau6WhuxiGh9X1Kl_3cEJek2EmNcX35CPW2qb0wbMC4lyAQWn23KDN3GzcW2zkWRQSU

[pecunia]

Rumblings that the Model 2 may have been cancelled.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-tesla-scraps-low-cost-150726195.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANTLa4_RsKOuzksl1AtGqE40eCBAU4nLOSfDPKnTl90FNOmt8PvMPervTHvEbGQqoD5SjT7PHT31YCMTytZdeMZQkk3kmYtzPHSf09FVOzau6WhuxiGh9X1Kl_3cEJek2EmNcX35CPW2qb0wbMC4lyAQWn23KDN3GzcW2zkWRQSU

No small inexpensive car - Tesla has become a true American car manufacturer.

[AccidentialMustache]

I saw a remarkable lack of EVs driving to/from/parked-for the eclipse on Monday. Two Mach-Es and a handful of Tesla of various name. Didn't notice any bolts/ioniq/evNs. On the morning take-the-kids-to-school carpool, every 10th or 20th car is an EV, mostly Teslas.

Not that I didn't do the same thing. Take an EV that may or may not find a working charger, or take the Fit that has just a bit more range (and a classic 2000s dvd-based navigation system -- no cell service, no problem!).

[BuffaloStache]

A lot of (most?) EVs come with a cable/adapter for 120V as well. Which means you can charge effectively anywhere in a pinch. It's slow but it's good safeguard against getting stranded.

This. Just got back from a trip where our rental car happened to be a PHEV (Dodge Hornet R/T, which I didn't even know existed before this trip!), and came with a 120V Level 1 charging cable/adapter. There were >4,000 mi on the car and the L1 cable was still wrapped in plastic in the bottom of the trunk :-D. It actually worked out great for our trip, because I was able to fill up on gas the night before we left, plug the car in overnight, and then drive all the way to the airport on full electric power (a ~20 mile drive, definitely far enough that the gas tank may not have been "full" when I returned it). Despite not liking many things about the car (it reaffirmed my decision to buy a full BEV over a PHEV last year), this and some other aspects of the PHEV experience made it a great rental car.
 

[pecunia]

So,I made a grocery run today.  I had the radio on.  I heard this ad  It told me that Joe Biden was going to ban two out of three cars that are on the road today.  I said to myself, "WTF?"  Then the ad concluded with "This message was brought to you by the American Petroleum Institute."  Ads don't usually make me laugh.  That one did.

It's probably on this link.

https://www.afpm.org/newsroom/news/afpm-launches-second-round-ads-spotlighting-gas-car-ban-policies-across-battleground

I think all you folks with the electric cars have got the oil and gas industry more than a mite nervous.  Did the buggy whip manufacturers do something similar when the Model T came out?

If the battery electric car doesn't take over the market, I think hydrogen stands a good chance.  It looks like a lot of clean hydrogen is going to be manufactured and shipped via pipelines.    I was wondering about the reliability of fuel cells.  I know NASA has used them for a long time.  I found this:

"For example, many automakers of passenger cars aim for a fuel cell stack lifespan of at least 5,000 hours or approximately 150,000-200,000 miles. In the heavy-duty category, many bus fuel cell stacks (power plant) have reached lifetimes of 20,000 hours and more, with a goal of 30,000 hours by 2030."

https://h2fcp.org/faqs

At any rate,, I haven't seen Joe Biden skulking around my garage.

[NorCal]

I saw a remarkable lack of EVs driving to/from/parked-for the eclipse on Monday. Two Mach-Es and a handful of Tesla of various name. Didn't notice any bolts/ioniq/evNs. On the morning take-the-kids-to-school carpool, every 10th or 20th car is an EV, mostly Teslas.

Not that I didn't do the same thing. Take an EV that may or may not find a working charger, or take the Fit that has just a bit more range (and a classic 2000s dvd-based navigation system -- no cell service, no problem!).

I took my Rivian to a "Cars and Coffee" event last weekend, not knowing what to expect.  I brought my induction cooktop and made people pancakes with the car.  Some parents with hungry cold kids greatly appreciated it.

Something I appreciated more after talking to people is how narrow the EV demographic is.  There were maybe 10 EV's that showed up, but we were all broadly from similar demographics.

There were a lot of questions from the EV curious with diverse backgrounds, but I could tell most people remained skeptical.

One guy who runs a garage floor epoxy coating business was very interested.  We calculated the cost per mile of his Dodge truck to be about $0.24/mile, while an EV truck would be $0.06-$0.07/mile.  We got into some details about towing his work trailer, and figured it would probably work well for his business. 

I had a conversation with one guy I would call aggressively skeptical of EV's, but he also had genuine curiosity.  He wanted to know how it would perform when it was -27 in Wyoming, and I didn't have a confident answer to that one. 

[NorCal]

So,I made a grocery run today.  I had the radio on.  I heard this ad  It told me that Joe Biden was going to ban two out of three cars that are on the road today.  I said to myself, "WTF?"  Then the ad concluded with "This message was brought to you by the American Petroleum Institute."  Ads don't usually make me laugh.  That one did.

It's probably on this link.

https://www.afpm.org/newsroom/news/afpm-launches-second-round-ads-spotlighting-gas-car-ban-policies-across-battleground

I think all you folks with the electric cars have got the oil and gas industry more than a mite nervous.  Did the buggy whip manufacturers do something similar when the Model T came out?

If the battery electric car doesn't take over the market, I think hydrogen stands a good chance.  It looks like a lot of clean hydrogen is going to be manufactured and shipped via pipelines.    I was wondering about the reliability of fuel cells.  I know NASA has used them for a long time.  I found this:

"For example, many automakers of passenger cars aim for a fuel cell stack lifespan of at least 5,000 hours or approximately 150,000-200,000 miles. In the heavy-duty category, many bus fuel cell stacks (power plant) have reached lifetimes of 20,000 hours and more, with a goal of 30,000 hours by 2030."

https://h2fcp.org/faqs

At any rate,, I haven't seen Joe Biden skulking around my garage.

I think you're right.  Here's a good report if you're up for some light reading.  The table on page 112 is interesting.

https://www.iea.org/reports/oil-2023

The IEA thinks that peak oil demand for OECD countries is this year.  Digging into the details, greater fuel economy has a bigger effect than EV's in the short term.

Worldwide demand is expected to peak around 2028 due to growth in non-OECD economies.  But China will make things interesting.  China's market share in EV's is more than twice the US, and growing much faster.  It hasn't put a dent in emissions or demand yet, as their economy is growing much faster.  But the higher EV market share combined with China's rapidly aging population may create a much steeper demand decline when it starts happening. 

Oil is a global market as the American Petroleum Institute is fond of telling us. 

I must say it was a good day when I stopped putting money in the API's pocket through gasoline purchases.  I know my personal purchases aren't even a rounding error, but it always felt gross knowing I was putting $2k-$3k per year into that lobbying machine. 

[Tyson]

Hydrogen probably won't take off, simply from a cost perspective.  Hydrogen is 2x more expensive to fuel your car than regular gasoline.  And battery powered vehicles are currently 4x cheaper to run than gas cars, right now.  Which means Hydrogen would need to come down in price by 800% to compete with EV's.  Possible, I suppose, but unlikely.

[NorCal]

Hydrogen probably won't take off, simply from a cost perspective.  Hydrogen is 2x more expensive to fuel your car than regular gasoline.  And battery powered vehicles are currently 4x cheaper to run than gas cars, right now.  Which means Hydrogen would need to come down in price by 800% to compete with EV's.  Possible, I suppose, but unlikely.

Here’s a good take on the future of hydrogen. It’s probably the most thoughtful I’ve seen.  I think he’s a little over optimistic on electrification, but is otherwise probably pretty spot -on

TLDR: there are a few industrial and commercial uses for which hydrogen is the only real zero-emission solution, but there’s not many other places it will be competitive.

https://www.liebreich.com/the-clean-hydrogen-ladder-now-updated-to-v4-1/

[Paper Chaser]

Hydrogen probably won't take off, simply from a cost perspective.  Hydrogen is 2x more expensive to fuel your car than regular gasoline.  And battery powered vehicles are currently 4x cheaper to run than gas cars, right now.  Which means Hydrogen would need to come down in price by 800% to compete with EV's.  Possible, I suppose, but unlikely.

Batteries can't do it all. Hydrogen is seeing massive investment in the commercial/industrial sectors from both private and public entities (think jobs that diesel has historically done). The US is spending $8 billion to establish hydrogen hubs in key locations and spur infrastructure development:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/10/13/biden-harris-administration-announces-regional-clean-hydrogen-hubs-to-drive-clean-manufacturing-and-jobs/#:~:text=President%20Biden's%20Bipartisan%20Infrastructure%20Law,delivery%2C%20and%20end%2Duse.


And if we look outside of the US/Europe, hydrogen is appealing in many places with less robust electrical infrastructure.

[reeshau]

Worldwide demand is expected to peak around 2028 due to growth in non-OECD economies.  But China will make things interesting.  China's market share in EV's is more than twice the US, and growing much faster.  It hasn't put a dent in emissions or demand yet, as their economy is growing much faster.  But the higher EV market share combined with China's rapidly aging population may create a much steeper demand decline when it starts happening. 

China has also been meeting its power needs with a significant number of new coal plants.  One step forward, two steps back.

[nereo]

Batteries can't do it all.

Why not? (serious question)
Generally when I see this argument it’s based on the supply of cobalt and lithium for one very specific battery type. But that’s not the only way of storing energy, particularly for non-auto uses where energy density isn’t the primary constraint.

I guess it also depends a good deal on whether we use the word “battery” to mean chemical-electric cells wired together. But if we talking energy storage there’s plenty of options beyond boxes of reactive metal steeped in an electrolytic brine connected by copper.

[LD_TAndK]

Worldwide demand is expected to peak around 2028 due to growth in non-OECD economies.  But China will make things interesting.  China's market share in EV's is more than twice the US, and growing much faster.  It hasn't put a dent in emissions or demand yet, as their economy is growing much faster.  But the higher EV market share combined with China's rapidly aging population may create a much steeper demand decline when it starts happening. 

China has also been meeting its power needs with a significant number of new coal plants.  One step forward, two steps back.

An ICE and a coal powered EV emit similar amounts of CO2 per mile. So one step forward but only one step back.

Ignoring the possibility of the EV being powered by renewables later in its lifespan, the health benefits of doing combustion away from population centers, etc

[StashingAway]

Batteries can't do it all.

Why not? (serious question)
Generally when I see this argument it’s based on the supply of cobalt and lithium for one very specific battery type. But that’s not the only way of storing energy, particularly for non-auto uses where energy density isn’t the primary constraint.

I guess it also depends a good deal on whether we use the word “battery” to mean chemical-electric cells wired together. But if we talking energy storage there’s plenty of options beyond boxes of reactive metal steeped in an electrolytic brine connected by copper.

Like using electrolysis to convert electricity (such as that generated off peak by renewables) into a dense and stable storage medium that can be later released when needed... hmmm... sounds like hydrogen "batteries"!

[StashingAway]

Worldwide demand is expected to peak around 2028 due to growth in non-OECD economies.  But China will make things interesting.  China's market share in EV's is more than twice the US, and growing much faster.  It hasn't put a dent in emissions or demand yet, as their economy is growing much faster.  But the higher EV market share combined with China's rapidly aging population may create a much steeper demand decline when it starts happening. 

China has also been meeting its power needs with a significant number of new coal plants.  One step forward, two steps back.

An ICE and a coal powered EV emit similar amounts of CO2 per mile. So one step forward but only one step back.

Ignoring the possibility of the EV being powered by renewables later in its lifespan, the health benefits of doing combustion away from population centers, etc

I'm being pedantic here, but the "steps back" in the case of vehicles come from the more intense embodied carbon used to make the vehicles in the first place. CO2 Emissions during driving are only part of the story of overall impact of vehicles. Particulate health benefits are better with EV's, but the overall heavier energy storage is worse for things like embodies emissions and environmental factors such as microplastics from tire wear. Both vehicle types are bad, mind you, but EVs are worse in some areas.

[Paper Chaser]

Batteries can't do it all.

Why not? (serious question)
Generally when I see this argument it’s based on the supply of cobalt and lithium for one very specific battery type. But that’s not the only way of storing energy, particularly for non-auto uses where energy density isn’t the primary constraint.

I guess it also depends a good deal on whether we use the word “battery” to mean chemical-electric cells wired together. But if we talking energy storage there’s plenty of options beyond boxes of reactive metal steeped in an electrolytic brine connected by copper.

There are duty cycles (mainly heavy work) that will completely drain a battery in no time. This happens with cordless powertools or battery lawn care equipment, and it happens with big machines too. Things like towing, digging, harvesting, transporting people/goods over long distances, etc. Some of those more difficult duty cycles also come in weight sensitive applications (airplanes, over the road trucks, etc). Some of those more difficult duty cycles occur in places with minimal or no opportunity to recharge (earth moving, air travel, agriculture, etc).

ICE have been in widespread use for over a century. Literal mountains of cash have been spent refining them, and building out infrastructure to support them. And with all of that time and money and effort from millions of humans, we still have multiple fuels used for different applications and duty cycles. That's because liquid fuels have different properties that have different advantages and disadvantages which make them suited for certain types of use. I don't see a carbon neutral future being much different. There's no magic energy source that works for every application. It's going to require different power sources.

Batteries are great for light duty work, or short duration heavy duty work. It would take a revolutionary new battery chemistry to make them viable for the other stuff. And that still doesn't address the lack of charging infrastructure in construction sites, fields of row crops, the middle of the ocean, etc.

[LD_TAndK]

...
I'm being pedantic here, but the "steps back" in the case of vehicles come from the more intense embodied carbon used to make the vehicles in the first place. CO2 Emissions during driving are only part of the story of overall impact of vehicles. Particulate health benefits are better with EV's, but the overall heavier energy storage is worse for things like embodies emissions and environmental factors such as microplastics from tire wear. Both vehicle types are bad, mind you, but EVs are worse in some areas.

Accounting for all environmental factors, EVs powered by the real world electricity mix are a vast improvement over ICE.

Irritating we're still getting these "both are bad" arguments in 2024. Reeks of the distract, doubt, and delay tactics of the fossil fuel industry

[LennStar]

Worldwide demand is expected to peak around 2028 due to growth in non-OECD economies.  But China will make things interesting.  China's market share in EV's is more than twice the US, and growing much faster.  It hasn't put a dent in emissions or demand yet, as their economy is growing much faster.  But the higher EV market share combined with China's rapidly aging population may create a much steeper demand decline when it starts happening. 

China has also been meeting its power needs with a significant number of new coal plants.  One step forward, two steps back.

China is also intalling more solar power per year than the rest of the world combined. And they plan to stop building new coal power plants before 2030. And by that I mean finishing them, not planning.
Don't forget that China is a massive country that started the industrial revolution 100 years later than Europe and the US and is now having a lot of energy needing industry there that we have moved out of our countries. Because their coal was cheaper.
Personally I see less troubles with Chinas path than with that of the US.

[Tyson]

...
I'm being pedantic here, but the "steps back" in the case of vehicles come from the more intense embodied carbon used to make the vehicles in the first place. CO2 Emissions during driving are only part of the story of overall impact of vehicles. Particulate health benefits are better with EV's, but the overall heavier energy storage is worse for things like embodies emissions and environmental factors such as microplastics from tire wear. Both vehicle types are bad, mind you, but EVs are worse in some areas.

Accounting for all environmental factors, EVs powered by the real world electricity mix are a vast improvement over ICE.

Irritating we're still getting these "both are bad" arguments in 2024. Reeks of the distract, doubt, and delay tactics of the fossil fuel industry

Agreed, it's not even close:

[bill1827]

There are duty cycles (mainly heavy work) that will completely drain a battery in no time. This happens with cordless powertools or battery lawn care equipment, and it happens with big machines too. Things like towing, digging, harvesting, transporting people/goods over long distances, etc. Some of those more difficult duty cycles also come in weight sensitive applications (airplanes, over the road trucks, etc). Some of those more difficult duty cycles occur in places with minimal or no opportunity to recharge (earth moving, air travel, agriculture, etc).

Seems that the makers of large scale equipment are developing electric versions.

https://www.komatsu.com/en/products/trucks/electric-drive-mining-trucks/?filters=54598B80-3647-4B22-BA6D-3E01C9E47182

https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news/corporate-press-releases/h/caterpillar-succesfully-demonstrates-first-battery-electric-large-mining-truck.html

[achvfi]

I am excited to see more cars like fiat 500e. While it is not practical nor cheap, I like the direction. Smaller and hopefully cheaper electric cars in future in US.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/the-2024-fiat-500e-is-a-34k-ev-that-appeals-to-emotion-not-logic/

[bacchi]

I am excited to see more cars like fiat 500e. While it is not practical nor cheap, I like the direction. Smaller and hopefully cheaper electric cars in future in US.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/the-2024-fiat-500e-is-a-34k-ev-that-appeals-to-emotion-not-logic/

The electric Mini is also a cool looking car. Sadly, the early models didn't get good reviews.

[Radagast]

There are duty cycles (mainly heavy work) that will completely drain a battery in no time. This happens with cordless powertools or battery lawn care equipment, and it happens with big machines too. Things like towing, digging, harvesting, transporting people/goods over long distances, etc. Some of those more difficult duty cycles also come in weight sensitive applications (airplanes, over the road trucks, etc). Some of those more difficult duty cycles occur in places with minimal or no opportunity to recharge (earth moving, air travel, agriculture, etc).

Seems that the makers of large scale equipment are developing electric versions.

https://www.komatsu.com/en/products/trucks/electric-drive-mining-trucks/?filters=54598B80-3647-4B22-BA6D-3E01C9E47182

https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news/corporate-press-releases/h/caterpillar-succesfully-demonstrates-first-battery-electric-large-mining-truck.html

They've been like that for years in fact. They use a diesel generator to power an electric motor (and have like a 1,000 gallon fuel tank). BEV will be new though. This is a pretty easy case, as mines have ample power and the trucks have clearly defined duty cycles ending at the some place every day. Once BEV makes financial sense they would definitely go for it. One negative aspect to BEV here is that mines are incredibly sensitive to upfront capital costs, relative to operations cost savings. They'd want at most a 3-5 year time to break even on their investment based on my experience.

[LennStar]

I am excited to see more cars like fiat 500e. While it is not practical nor cheap, I like the direction. Smaller and hopefully cheaper electric cars in future in US.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/the-2024-fiat-500e-is-a-34k-ev-that-appeals-to-emotion-not-logic/

WTF you say it's not practical? Not practical are those monster pickups. They are also even less cheap I think?

[Paper Chaser]

There are duty cycles (mainly heavy work) that will completely drain a battery in no time. This happens with cordless powertools or battery lawn care equipment, and it happens with big machines too. Things like towing, digging, harvesting, transporting people/goods over long distances, etc. Some of those more difficult duty cycles also come in weight sensitive applications (airplanes, over the road trucks, etc). Some of those more difficult duty cycles occur in places with minimal or no opportunity to recharge (earth moving, air travel, agriculture, etc).

Seems that the makers of large scale equipment are developing electric versions.

https://www.komatsu.com/en/products/trucks/electric-drive-mining-trucks/?filters=54598B80-3647-4B22-BA6D-3E01C9E47182

https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news/corporate-press-releases/h/caterpillar-succesfully-demonstrates-first-battery-electric-large-mining-truck.html

Yes. They want to have options available to suit customers needs. I'm not suggesting that these companies are putting all of their eggs into either energy source. There will be applications where batteries work great, or are the only viable option given legislation in an area. There will be other applications where that's not the case. Note that both of the links provided are for very similar machines that do very similar jobs in very defined areas. There was a post in this thread a few pages ago that linked an all electric mining truck that only needed to be charged once, and after that it was able to recharge itself using regen as it descended into the mine. There are cases where batteries work great. But that doesn't mean they work that great for every duty cycle, application, or commercial business.

Those same companies that you linked are also developing hydrogen offerings for other applications/duty cycles:

https://www.komatsu.com/en/newsroom/2023/hydraulic-excavator-concept-with-hydrogen-fuel-cell/

https://www.cat.com/en_US/news/engine-press-releases/caterpillar-to-develop-hydrogen-hybrid-power-solution-for-off-highway-vehicles.html

I could provide links to similar stories from other companies like JCB, Cummins, John Deere, MAN, Scania, Volvo, New Holland, etc. Like I said in the previous post, the future is not likely to be a single energy source for all jobs any more than the past or present have been. Moving forward, I think we're likely to see more specialized, application specific thinking when companies make their equipment purchases, rather than everything coalescing into a single type of power source like batteries.

[nereo]

Worldwide demand is expected to peak around 2028 due to growth in non-OECD economies.  But China will make things interesting.  China's market share in EV's is more than twice the US, and growing much faster.  It hasn't put a dent in emissions or demand yet, as their economy is growing much faster.  But the higher EV market share combined with China's rapidly aging population may create a much steeper demand decline when it starts happening. 

China has also been meeting its power needs with a significant number of new coal plants.  One step forward, two steps back.

An ICE and a coal powered EV emit similar amounts of CO2 per mile. So one step forward but only one step back.

Ignoring the possibility of the EV being powered by renewables later in its lifespan, the health benefits of doing combustion away from population centers, etc

Um, Kay…. But…. China is currently running a grid that’s about 30% renewable and currently less than 40% from coal. They are adding more renewables (total production) than any other country and should have a grid that’s >50% renewables in the next 3-4 years. In that aspect driving an electric car in China over the next 7-10 years will result in a *lower* GHG footprint than doing the same thing in many regions of the US.

It’s hard to for many in the West to reconcile just how rapidly China has been modernizing its infrastructure.

[reeshau]

Worldwide demand is expected to peak around 2028 due to growth in non-OECD economies.  But China will make things interesting.  China's market share in EV's is more than twice the US, and growing much faster.  It hasn't put a dent in emissions or demand yet, as their economy is growing much faster.  But the higher EV market share combined with China's rapidly aging population may create a much steeper demand decline when it starts happening. 

China has also been meeting its power needs with a significant number of new coal plants.  One step forward, two steps back.

China is also intalling more solar power per year than the rest of the world combined. And they plan to stop building new coal power plants before 2030. And by that I mean finishing them, not planning.
Don't forget that China is a massive country that started the industrial revolution 100 years later than Europe and the US and is now having a lot of energy needing industry there that we have moved out of our countries. Because their coal was cheaper.
Personally I see less troubles with Chinas path than with that of the US.

China is building renewables, too.  And they have said they would stop by 2030, but they are currently building at full speed.  From the article:

"China has pledged to start cutting coal consumption over the 2025-2030 period, but developers are building as much new capacity as they can before 2025, the GEM-CREA report said."

I am skeptical the 2030 promise will be kept, in the face of population discomfort like brown outs our blackouts.  It won't be the first broken promise.

And no, that doesn't excuse the US, or anyone else.

[Just Joe]

I had a conversation with one guy I would call aggressively skeptical of EV's, but he also had genuine curiosity.  He wanted to know how it would perform when it was -27 in Wyoming, and I didn't have a confident answer to that one.

Watch the YouTube videos of Bjorn Nyland. He does all sorts of frozen EV long distance tests in Norway.

[Just Joe]

https://electrek.co/2024/04/03/catl-launches-new-ev-battery-last-1-million-miles-15-yrs/

Pretty interesting technology. As the comments section supposed - that would be an EV with 67 years of service under warranty. Or 200K miles without degradation.

[achvfi]

I am excited to see more cars like fiat 500e. While it is not practical nor cheap, I like the direction. Smaller and hopefully cheaper electric cars in future in US.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/the-2024-fiat-500e-is-a-34k-ev-that-appeals-to-emotion-not-logic/

WTF you say it's not practical? Not practical are those monster pickups. They are also even less cheap I think?

Oh yeah, you are right. Much more practical than monster pickups.

[geekette]

We reserved a rental in Austin, TX over 7 months ago for an eclipse/anniversary trip. While in line at the rental counter Saturday night, an employee broadcast to the 50 odd people in line that “there are only large equipment and EVs available”. Many were not happy.

I drive an EV, so I have some knowledge and several charging apps on my phone, so while it wasn’t my preference in an unfamiliar area, I was okay with it. We had our choice of a Ford Mach-e, a Hyundai Ionic, some sort of Genesis, or a Mercedes EQB 300, which is what we ended up picking. I wouldn’t buy one, especially for the $57k list price. I find it annoying, nagging me “don’t forget your keys” as I enter/exit. You do have to use the fob to lock/unlock, even though it’s push button start.  Other piddling annoyances too. But hey, the doors are solid.

Because the EV was “forced” on us, Avis offered a prepay fuel option (bring it in empty) for 33 cents.  Odd price, but I’ll take it.

We went to a restaurant that had free level 2 charging. You needed the ChargePoint app (which I had) but we still had difficulties getting started, mostly because the sun was so bright we couldn’t see either the ChargePoint screen or the phone screen, but after a couple tries, we got it going. Disconnecting was different from the usual “unlock the car”. There’s a button inside the charge door so that anyone could disconnect (assuming they knew about it, which I did not).

We fared better than some Tesla renters on another charger - they could not initiate a charge even with the app, and their a/c was broken. They said it had been a nightmare rental (and they were also EV owners).

What the rental car companies really need to include is a “quick start” placemat. How to do the basics,  especially charging, but seat and mirror changes (seat controls in this car were on the door), if Apple CarPlay or the Google equivalent is available and how to connect (or how to conjure the nav system). Basically anything that’s unusual.

[JLee]

I am excited to see more cars like fiat 500e. While it is not practical nor cheap, I like the direction. Smaller and hopefully cheaper electric cars in future in US.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/the-2024-fiat-500e-is-a-34k-ev-that-appeals-to-emotion-not-logic/

The electric Mini is also a cool looking car. Sadly, the early models didn't get good reviews.

I know someone (two someones actually) who have Mini EVs and they really like them.

[Just Joe]

What the rental car companies really need to include is a “quick start” placemat. How to do the basics,  especially charging, but seat and mirror changes (seat controls in this car were on the door), if Apple CarPlay or the Google equivalent is available and how to connect (or how to conjure the nav system). Basically anything that’s unusual.

Good idea. And make it specific where necessary to the actual vehicle that was rented.

One of my first episodes with a Nissan Leaf years ago had me scratching my head. When the car is locked, the charge cable is locked into the charging port. Clever and important and it was a mystery why I couldn't unplug. A few moments on DuckDuckGo and I was fixed up.

Imagine being the type of person for whom sending an email or opening a webpage is an adventure. I had a friend in that situation later also with a different EV. They were overwhelmed.

[AccidentialMustache]

I think all you folks with the electric cars have got the oil and gas industry more than a mite nervous.  Did the buggy whip manufacturers do something similar when the Model T came out?

They wanted to, but they got sued by the Luddites who patented the idea a century earlier.

[reeshau]

I think all you folks with the electric cars have got the oil and gas industry more than a mite nervous.  Did the buggy whip manufacturers do something similar when the Model T came out?

They wanted to, but they got sued by the Luddites who patented the idea a century earlier.

Funny enough, the carriage manufacturers all started making car bodies.  Some companies dead ended, some simply transitioned.

[GuitarStv]

I think all you folks with the electric cars have got the oil and gas industry more than a mite nervous.  Did the buggy whip manufacturers do something similar when the Model T came out?

They wanted to, but they got sued by the Luddites who patented the idea a century earlier.

Funny enough, the carriage manufacturers all started making car bodies.  Some companies dead ended, some simply transitioned.

I bet it was tough for street cleaners though.  Transitioning from knee high shit to small bits of rubber dust would have radically changed the industry.

[pecunia]

I think all you folks with the electric cars have got the oil and gas industry more than a mite nervous.  Did the buggy whip manufacturers do something similar when the Model T came out?

They wanted to, but they got sued by the Luddites who patented the idea a century earlier.

Funny enough, the carriage manufacturers all started making car bodies.  Some companies dead ended, some simply transitioned.

I bet it was tough for street cleaners though.  Transitioning from knee high shit to small bits of rubber dust would have radically changed the industry.

It does seem like the advent of the automobile in the last century was a provider of opportunity.  The Detroit automakers hired a lot of poor Southern boys in the factories and gave them a middle class life.  Historians still love the "Five Dollar Day."  Every little town had at least one gas stations / car repair shop.

Electric vehicles are touted as requiring less repairs.  They are also said to need less maintenance.  Of course, there is no need for gas.  The API ads remind us of that.

Will large sales of electric cars cause large unemployment of the individuals who formerly supported the ICE vehicles?

I used to do a lot of traveling for work.  I used to get poor meals at truck stops.  At the time they were proclaiming that self driving trucks were soon to be upon us.  I thought about all the drivers and the people in the truck stops. A lot of jobs would be eliminated.  This may still happen as trucks evolve.

The only thing permanent is change.

[reeshau]

I used to do a lot of traveling for work.  I used to get poor meals at truck stops.  At the time they were proclaiming that self driving trucks were soon to be upon us.  I thought about all the drivers and the people in the truck stops. A lot of jobs would be eliminated.  This may still happen as trucks evolve.

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.

In a lot of ways, trucking is an undesirable job.  Lots of monotony on the road, and days away from family.  The interesting thing is that long highway stretches are the easiest to automate.  What could come about is that human drivers become like harbor pilots are to ships: an autonomous truck drives 24 hours a day between delivery yards on urban outskirts, and the humans stay local, delivering different goods tomdifferent points in their locality.

It could end up making the position a lot more efficient, and a lot more desirable to do.

[bacchi]

I used to do a lot of traveling for work.  I used to get poor meals at truck stops.  At the time they were proclaiming that self driving trucks were soon to be upon us.  I thought about all the drivers and the people in the truck stops. A lot of jobs would be eliminated.  This may still happen as trucks evolve.

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.

In a lot of ways, trucking is an undesirable job.  Lots of monotony on the road, and days away from family.  The interesting thing is that long highway stretches are the easiest to automate.  What could come about is that human drivers become like harbor pilots are to ships: an autonomous truck drives 24 hours a day between delivery yards on urban outskirts, and the humans stay local, delivering different goods tomdifferent points in their locality.

It could end up making the position a lot more efficient, and a lot more desirable to do.

We have the tech to do that now with rail.

[AlanStache]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

[GuitarStv]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

Woah, has that ever been tried?

[nereo]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

To me, pay doesn’t seem to be what’s preventing this shortage. A bigger issue seems to be that it’s a dangerous profession that is terrible on your body and requires the driver to be away from their home frequently and working when most people want to sleep.

[pecunia]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

To me, pay doesn’t seem to be what’s preventing this shortage. A bigger issue seems to be that it’s a dangerous profession that is terrible on your body and requires the driver to be away from their home frequently and working when most people want to sleep.

It's not just the drivers.  Those truck stops are big enterprises.  They look after the needs of those truckers.  Many jobs will disappear. What opportunities will emerge?

[reeshau]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

To me, pay doesn’t seem to be what’s preventing this shortage. A bigger issue seems to be that it’s a dangerous profession that is terrible on your body and requires the driver to be away from their home frequently and working when most people want to sleep.

Pay is a part of it.  I knew several owner operators, and cheating on the federal 8 hour / day drive limit was common.  The guy who moved my wife's grandmother's things drove straight from Florida to our house in Indiana--nonstop.  And, he was continuing to Michigan.  That guy said he pulled in $250k a year.  In 2000.

After 9/11, though, trucks began to get wired for communications and positioning, in the name of security.  With that came electronic logging, so no more cheating.  Pay is capped at what is advertised.

The conditions also suck.  Not many aspire to it, they settle for it.

[AlanStache]

... so better pay and better working conditions....?

[GilesMM]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

To me, pay doesn’t seem to be what’s preventing this shortage. A bigger issue seems to be that it’s a dangerous profession that is terrible on your body and requires the driver to be away from their home frequently and working when most people want to sleep.

Pay is a part of it.  I knew several owner operators, and cheating on the federal 8 hour / day drive limit was common.  The guy who moved my wife's grandmother's things drove straight from Florida to our house in Indiana--nonstop.  And, he was continuing to Michigan.  That guy said he pulled in $250k a year.  In 2000.

After 9/11, though, trucks began to get wired for communications and positioning, in the name of security.  With that came electronic logging, so no more cheating.  Pay is capped at what is advertised.

The conditions also suck.  Not many aspire to it, they settle for it.

Based on my time at truck stops the last couple years (I love Love's!), most of the big rig drivers are immigrants.  In fact, more and more truck stops are now offering Indian and Pakistani food in addition to hot dogs and pizza.

[reeshau]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

To me, pay doesn’t seem to be what’s preventing this shortage. A bigger issue seems to be that it’s a dangerous profession that is terrible on your body and requires the driver to be away from their home frequently and working when most people want to sleep.

Pay is a part of it.  I knew several owner operators, and cheating on the federal 8 hour / day drive limit was common.  The guy who moved my wife's grandmother's things drove straight from Florida to our house in Indiana--nonstop.  And, he was continuing to Michigan.  That guy said he pulled in $250k a year.  In 2000.

After 9/11, though, trucks began to get wired for communications and positioning, in the name of security.  With that came electronic logging, so no more cheating.  Pay is capped at what is advertised.

The conditions also suck.  Not many aspire to it, they settle for it.

Based on my time at truck stops the last couple years (I love Love's!), most of the big rig drivers are immigrants.  In fact, more and more truck stops are now offering Indian and Pakistani food in addition to hot dogs and pizza.

That doesn't surprise me; immigrants have always taken undesirable jobs.  But the average age of a truck driver in the US is 47. That's not screaming immigrant takeover.  (The same source says 84% male, and 58% white)

By contrast, the average age of an airline pilot, with all their training and tenure, is 39.

[pecunia]

...

Trucking is in a hiring crisis.  In 2018, the industry was short 50,000 drivers.  In 2023, that is now 80,000, on its way to 160,000 by 2030.
...

"Employers learn one crazy trick to solve staffing crisis!!! Pay more and provide better working conditions!"

To me, pay doesn’t seem to be what’s preventing this shortage. A bigger issue seems to be that it’s a dangerous profession that is terrible on your body and requires the driver to be away from their home frequently and working when most people want to sleep.

Pay is a part of it.  I knew several owner operators, and cheating on the federal 8 hour / day drive limit was common.  The guy who moved my wife's grandmother's things drove straight from Florida to our house in Indiana--nonstop.  And, he was continuing to Michigan.  That guy said he pulled in $250k a year.  In 2000.

After 9/11, though, trucks began to get wired for communications and positioning, in the name of security.  With that came electronic logging, so no more cheating.  Pay is capped at what is advertised.

The conditions also suck.  Not many aspire to it, they settle for it.

Based on my time at truck stops the last couple years (I love Love's!), most of the big rig drivers are immigrants.  In fact, more and more truck stops are now offering Indian and Pakistani food in addition to hot dogs and pizza.

It seems to me that it takes longer for an electric charge than it does to gas up.  Are these truck stops beginning to put in charging stations?  The longer time the customer stays at the truck stop gives an opportunity for the Truck Stop to sell food, knick-knacks and services to a captive clientele.

[GilesMM]

Based on my time at truck stops the last couple years (I love Love's!), most of the big rig drivers are immigrants.  In fact, more and more truck stops are now offering Indian and Pakistani food in addition to hot dogs and pizza.

It seems to me that it takes longer for an electric charge than it does to gas up.  Are these truck stops beginning to put in charging stations?  The longer time the customer stays at the truck stop gives an opportunity for the Truck Stop to sell food, knick-knacks and services to a captive clientele.

Love's is putting your tax dollars to work electrifying!  I had a coffee at one on I-5 today, U-Haul in tow.


https://www.ttnews.com/articles/loves-ev-chargers