Poll

I voted:

For Trump and am happy about it.
23 (8.3%)
For Trump and regret it.
2 (0.7%)
For Clinton and am happy about it.
185 (66.5%)
For Clinton and regret it.
1 (0.4%)
For 3rd party candidate and am happy about it.
48 (17.3%)
For 3rd party candidate and regret it.
3 (1.1%)
I'm not eligible and therefore did not vote.
16 (5.8%)

Total Members Voted: 275

Voting closed: March 02, 2017, 05:19:57 PM

Author Topic: Election follow up poll  (Read 27673 times)

SuperMex

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #100 on: February 02, 2017, 08:25:06 AM »


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation-idUSBREA321Y320140403

He got fired in 2014 for a donation made in 2008?  That's insane if that's all he did (ie make a donation to a now unpopular cause).  I think most rationale people would agree that views on gay marriage have evolved massively over the last 5 to 10 years.

This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

Gay couples are completely normal and have been around since the dawn of time. I, personally, am astounded that it has taken us so long to realize this.

By normal I mean mathematically common, I am not making a positive or negative value judgment I am saying they are not the norm. Either are people who are seven foot tall; therefore I don't think we should mandate that all doorways be raised in height to eight feet. I don't think people over seven feet tall should be a protected class requiring special rules to protect their rights.

As an example because some states don't allow same sex marriage same sex couples are granted 10 days free leave to go get married in the Army. This is an entitlement not given to heterosexual couples. Again I am not into giving ANY group special treatment.

Come on man. This is getting ridiculous. Same sex marriage is not legal in every state and certainly not legal in many countries. The "extra" leave is granted so couples can travel to where same sex marriage is legal. And it's 7 days within the continental US and 10 days if you are stationed Internationally.

That is correct; there is a name when you give one group a right that others don't have. It is called preferential treatment and I am against it at all times

Yep me too. Which is why gay marriage bans still in place in some states is utterly ridiculous. And same sex couples having to travel to get married proves preferential treatment for hetero couples still exist. Of course if they refused them extra time to travel it just reinforces the preference towards heterosexual couples.
[/quote]

I agree but the right answer wasn't to give free leave to one group. The easy answer would have been all Soldiers are authorized 7 days free leave to get married in the U.S. and 10 if overseas.

That way it's fair for everyone.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2017, 08:32:16 AM »
Guyssssssss. This has to be psyops. No one person can actually be that bad a quotes. He's trying to get into the part of your brain that needs order, and skullfuck you. Resist!

Example above. Resist, comrades, resist.

radram

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2017, 08:37:56 AM »
This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

If that were the case Trump wouldn't be President and you wouldn't have millions of folks still running around yelling "ahhh Benghazi" or "Lock her up!" It works both ways. Don't pretend the liberal media has mind control over everyone.

Nice made up stats too. More alternative facts?
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

If you want to blame someone (or credit them) I would suggest first looking at the church. Same sex marriage has become much more acceptable. And if you were trying to chastise liberal media perhaps picking something other than gay marriage (ie equality) would drive home the point. You just credited them with shifting people's attitudes to be more accepting of others. Equality, just some wild, crazy agenda I suppose. Oh the horror!

For the record, I hate the media. One of the reasons I got rid of cable.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I don't give a care about gay marriage one way or another. What I worry about is the ability to so rapidly change the populations views on a subject. If the media and Hollywood can do that with gay marriage what may they decide is their next pet project? gun control, democracy vs socialism, hunting, self defense, taxation levels, granting citizenship to illegals what's next on the agenda? The sheep will follow whatever you put on the TV; the world is your oyster when you control the media, academia, and Hollywood.

Let me make it clear again I have zero issue with gay marriage. However I think it is unconstitutional to give any group preferential treatment before the law.

So the left is the way to go in all cases, and the right is wrong and evil? I mean the photo, of course. I just couldn't resist saying it that way :)




GuitarStv

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2017, 08:41:26 AM »
I worry about is the ability to so rapidly change the populations views on a subject.

You've repeatedly claimed that 'the media' has changed millions of peoples minds on issues.  What evidence do you have that this was a greater influence than the many other contributing factors:
- the waning influence of religion in America
- the declassification of homosexuality as a mental health disease from the DSMIV
- the advocacy (and valid arguments) brought forth by gay rights groups
- etc.


democracy vs socialism

Are you aware that democracy and socialism are complementary and coexist in a numner of places in the world?


The sheep will follow whatever you put on the TV; the world is your oyster when you control the media, academia, and Hollywood.

Who exactly is this shadowy figure you're claiming has control of 'the media', academia, and Hollywood?


Maybe you missed the part where I said I don't give a care about gay marriage one way or another.
I think it is unconstitutional to give any group preferential treatment before the law.

These statements don't seem to make sense when taken together.  Giving heterosexual couples the right to marry (and all the associated benefits of that) without giving gay couples the same right is preferential treatment.

Either:
- You care about preferential treatment before the law, and therefore must support gay rights
- You do not care about preferential treatment before the law, and therefore don't care about gay rights

Chris22

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2017, 08:46:51 AM »
This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

If that were the case Trump wouldn't be President and you wouldn't have millions of folks still running around yelling "ahhh Benghazi" or "Lock her up!" It works both ways. Don't pretend the liberal media has mind control over everyone.

Nice made up stats too. More alternative facts?
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

If you want to blame someone (or credit them) I would suggest first looking at the church. Same sex marriage has become much more acceptable. And if you were trying to chastise liberal media perhaps picking something other than gay marriage (ie equality) would drive home the point. You just credited them with shifting people's attitudes to be more accepting of others. Equality, just some wild, crazy agenda I suppose. Oh the horror!

For the record, I hate the media. One of the reasons I got rid of cable.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I don't give a care about gay marriage one way or another. What I worry about is the ability to so rapidly change the populations views on a subject. If the media and Hollywood can do that with gay marriage what may they decide is their next pet project? gun control, democracy vs socialism, hunting, self defense, taxation levels, granting citizenship to illegals what's next on the agenda? The sheep will follow whatever you put on the TV; the world is your oyster when you control the media, academia, and Hollywood.

Let me make it clear again I have zero issue with gay marriage. However I think it is unconstitutional to give any group preferential treatment before the law.

So the left is the way to go in all cases, and the right is wrong and evil? I mean the photo, of course. I just couldn't resist saying it that way :)





I always love when this picture is used as an example, given that it's a way for those three people to try to steal a product they haven't paid for and we're debating the most equitable way for them to steal it.

MasterStache

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2017, 08:57:50 AM »


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation-idUSBREA321Y320140403

He got fired in 2014 for a donation made in 2008?  That's insane if that's all he did (ie make a donation to a now unpopular cause).  I think most rationale people would agree that views on gay marriage have evolved massively over the last 5 to 10 years.

This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

Gay couples are completely normal and have been around since the dawn of time. I, personally, am astounded that it has taken us so long to realize this.

By normal I mean mathematically common, I am not making a positive or negative value judgment I am saying they are not the norm. Either are people who are seven foot tall; therefore I don't think we should mandate that all doorways be raised in height to eight feet. I don't think people over seven feet tall should be a protected class requiring special rules to protect their rights.

As an example because some states don't allow same sex marriage same sex couples are granted 10 days free leave to go get married in the Army. This is an entitlement not given to heterosexual couples. Again I am not into giving ANY group special treatment.

Come on man. This is getting ridiculous. Same sex marriage is not legal in every state and certainly not legal in many countries. The "extra" leave is granted so couples can travel to where same sex marriage is legal. And it's 7 days within the continental US and 10 days if you are stationed Internationally.

That is correct; there is a name when you give one group a right that others don't have. It is called preferential treatment and I am against it at all times

Yep me too. Which is why gay marriage bans still in place in some states is utterly ridiculous. And same sex couples having to travel to get married proves preferential treatment for hetero couples still exist. Of course if they refused them extra time to travel it just reinforces the preference towards heterosexual couples.

I agree but the right answer wasn't to give free leave to one group. The easy answer would have been all Soldiers are authorized 7 days free leave to get married in the U.S. and 10 if overseas.

That way it's fair for everyone.
[/quote]

No it's not. The same sex couple has to utilize their time to travel, apply for a certificate, wait, get married, and travel back. The hetero couple only has to get married wherever they are. The hetero couple now gets special privilege of extra leave and can utilize the vast majority of it as they see fit while the same sex couple is still trying to get married.

How is this fair again? Go ahead, explain it. Feel free to explain how it's fair financially as well. This ought to be good.

SuperMex

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2017, 08:59:11 AM »
I worry about is the ability to so rapidly change the populations views on a subject.

You've repeatedly claimed that 'the media' has changed millions of peoples minds on issues.  What evidence do you have that this was a greater influence than the many other contributing factors:
- the waning influence of religion in America
- the declassification of homosexuality as a mental health disease from the DSMIV
- the advocacy (and valid arguments) brought forth by gay rights groups
- etc.


democracy vs socialism

Are you aware that democracy and socialism are complementary and coexist in a numner of places in the world?


The sheep will follow whatever you put on the TV; the world is your oyster when you control the media, academia, and Hollywood.

Who exactly is this shadowy figure you're claiming has control of 'the media', academia, and Hollywood?


Maybe you missed the part where I said I don't give a care about gay marriage one way or another.
I think it is unconstitutional to give any group preferential treatment before the law.

These statements don't seem to make sense when taken together.  Giving heterosexual couples the right to marry (and all the associated benefits of that) without giving gay couples the same right is preferential treatment.

Either:
- You care about preferential treatment before the law, and therefore must support gay rights
- You do not care about preferential treatment before the law, and therefore don't care about gay rights

I support gay marriage because it is equal. As far as gay rights, I support them having any right all other Americans have. However if in rights you mean special rights above and beyond what everyone else has, (example hate crime laws) then no.

golden1

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2017, 09:00:31 AM »
Quote
I always love when this picture is used as an example, given that it's a way for those three people to try to steal a product they haven't paid for and we're debating the most equitable way for them to steal it.

Wow....just wow.

 It never even occurred to me that they were "stealing" anything!  How do you know this isn't a local game or a community event. 

Your response says VOLUMES about your apparent biases. 

golden1

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2017, 09:01:19 AM »
Quote
However if in rights you mean special rights above and beyond what everyone else has, (example hate crime laws) then no.

What special rights are gay people demanding?  Serious question. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2017, 09:03:13 AM »
Quote
I always love when this picture is used as an example, given that it's a way for those three people to try to steal a product they haven't paid for and we're debating the most equitable way for them to steal it.

Wow....just wow.

 It never even occurred to me that they were "stealing" anything!  How do you know this isn't a local game or a community event. 

Your response says VOLUMES about your apparent biases.

To be fair . . . they do look like they could be Mexicans, and the President has already told us all what to think about those criminal rapists.

SuperMex

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2017, 09:07:00 AM »


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation-idUSBREA321Y320140403

He got fired in 2014 for a donation made in 2008?  That's insane if that's all he did (ie make a donation to a now unpopular cause).  I think most rationale people would agree that views on gay marriage have evolved massively over the last 5 to 10 years.

This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

Gay couples are completely normal and have been around since the dawn of time. I, personally, am astounded that it has taken us so long to realize this.

By normal I mean mathematically common, I am not making a positive or negative value judgment I am saying they are not the norm. Either are people who are seven foot tall; therefore I don't think we should mandate that all doorways be raised in height to eight feet. I don't think people over seven feet tall should be a protected class requiring special rules to protect their rights.

As an example because some states don't allow same sex marriage same sex couples are granted 10 days free leave to go get married in the Army. This is an entitlement not given to heterosexual couples. Again I am not into giving ANY group special treatment.

Come on man. This is getting ridiculous. Same sex marriage is not legal in every state and certainly not legal in many countries. The "extra" leave is granted so couples can travel to where same sex marriage is legal. And it's 7 days within the continental US and 10 days if you are stationed Internationally.

That is correct; there is a name when you give one group a right that others don't have. It is called preferential treatment and I am against it at all times

Yep me too. Which is why gay marriage bans still in place in some states is utterly ridiculous. And same sex couples having to travel to get married proves preferential treatment for hetero couples still exist. Of course if they refused them extra time to travel it just reinforces the preference towards heterosexual couples.

I agree but the right answer wasn't to give free leave to one group. The easy answer would have been all Soldiers are authorized 7 days free leave to get married in the U.S. and 10 if overseas.

That way it's fair for everyone.

No it's not. The same sex couple has to utilize their time to travel, apply for a certificate, wait, get married, and travel back. The hetero couple only has to get married wherever they are. The hetero couple now gets special privilege of extra leave and can utilize the vast majority of it as they see fit while the same sex couple is still trying to get married.

How is this fair again? Go ahead, explain it. Feel free to explain how it's fair financially as well. This ought to be good.
[/quote]

Most Soldiers straight or gay don't get married on some military base 1000's of miles from home. They get married in their home towns so their families can attend without incurring a huge cost. What each Soldier wishes to do with the 10 days would be there business.

I always wondered what a CDR would do if a Soldier said I want my 10 days free leave I'm marrying a man; then he goes home and marries a women. Would the Command really want to push this? What would happen if the Soldier said, yeah when I got home I changed my mind and married a women instead. Would they then try to retroactively charge him leave? I think it is too slippery most CDRs' would probably look the other way.


MasterStache

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2017, 09:07:06 AM »
Quote
I always love when this picture is used as an example, given that it's a way for those three people to try to steal a product they haven't paid for and we're debating the most equitable way for them to steal it.

Wow....just wow.

 It never even occurred to me that they were "stealing" anything!  How do you know this isn't a local game or a community event. 

Your response says VOLUMES about your apparent biases.

To be fair . . . they do look like they could be Mexicans, and the President has already told us all what to think about those criminal rapists.

Well good thing there is a wall/fence there. ( ;

GuitarStv

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2017, 09:08:16 AM »
Quote
I always love when this picture is used as an example, given that it's a way for those three people to try to steal a product they haven't paid for and we're debating the most equitable way for them to steal it.

Wow....just wow.

 It never even occurred to me that they were "stealing" anything!  How do you know this isn't a local game or a community event. 

Your response says VOLUMES about your apparent biases.

To be fair . . . they do look like they could be Mexicans, and the President has already told us all what to think about those criminal rapists.

Well good thing there is a wall/fence there. ( ;

I can guarantee you that the three guys behind the fence paid for it.

radram

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2017, 09:10:26 AM »
This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

If that were the case Trump wouldn't be President and you wouldn't have millions of folks still running around yelling "ahhh Benghazi" or "Lock her up!" It works both ways. Don't pretend the liberal media has mind control over everyone.

Nice made up stats too. More alternative facts?
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

If you want to blame someone (or credit them) I would suggest first looking at the church. Same sex marriage has become much more acceptable. And if you were trying to chastise liberal media perhaps picking something other than gay marriage (ie equality) would drive home the point. You just credited them with shifting people's attitudes to be more accepting of others. Equality, just some wild, crazy agenda I suppose. Oh the horror!

For the record, I hate the media. One of the reasons I got rid of cable.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I don't give a care about gay marriage one way or another. What I worry about is the ability to so rapidly change the populations views on a subject. If the media and Hollywood can do that with gay marriage what may they decide is their next pet project? gun control, democracy vs socialism, hunting, self defense, taxation levels, granting citizenship to illegals what's next on the agenda? The sheep will follow whatever you put on the TV; the world is your oyster when you control the media, academia, and Hollywood.

Let me make it clear again I have zero issue with gay marriage. However I think it is unconstitutional to give any group preferential treatment before the law.

So the left is the way to go in all cases, and the right is wrong and evil? I mean the photo, of course. I just couldn't resist saying it that way :)





I always love when this picture is used as an example, given that it's a way for those three people to try to steal a product they haven't paid for and we're debating the most equitable way for them to steal it.

I was looking for the photo of restroom lines, men vs. women, at a football game, but I could not find it.

It could have been a very fair point regarding theft of the game. We are all good, however, since this is a picture of 2 public parks with no admission. In fact, there is an annual budget the park official has appropriated for crates, which are recycled from a nearby cannery. They get a great price, since the cannery would be paying to dispose of the crates anyway.

If this was somehow a private park, it still would not be theft, however, since the size of the fence would obviously not imply any visual rights need to be obtained due to the low height of the fence. The only argument could be the legal right to obstruct the view of short people, and that clearly isn't equal.

This was a great secondary exercise to our discussion regarding equality, after straying from a thread regarding how people voted and their comfort level with their vote so far.

Care to comment on the intent of my post, or the OP topic of the thread?

I'll just go ahead and say this was fun, until the thread was locked. Have a great day everyone. Talk to you soon on another thread.

MasterStache

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2017, 09:13:57 AM »


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation-idUSBREA321Y320140403

He got fired in 2014 for a donation made in 2008?  That's insane if that's all he did (ie make a donation to a now unpopular cause).  I think most rationale people would agree that views on gay marriage have evolved massively over the last 5 to 10 years.

This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

Gay couples are completely normal and have been around since the dawn of time. I, personally, am astounded that it has taken us so long to realize this.

By normal I mean mathematically common, I am not making a positive or negative value judgment I am saying they are not the norm. Either are people who are seven foot tall; therefore I don't think we should mandate that all doorways be raised in height to eight feet. I don't think people over seven feet tall should be a protected class requiring special rules to protect their rights.

As an example because some states don't allow same sex marriage same sex couples are granted 10 days free leave to go get married in the Army. This is an entitlement not given to heterosexual couples. Again I am not into giving ANY group special treatment.

Come on man. This is getting ridiculous. Same sex marriage is not legal in every state and certainly not legal in many countries. The "extra" leave is granted so couples can travel to where same sex marriage is legal. And it's 7 days within the continental US and 10 days if you are stationed Internationally.

That is correct; there is a name when you give one group a right that others don't have. It is called preferential treatment and I am against it at all times

Yep me too. Which is why gay marriage bans still in place in some states is utterly ridiculous. And same sex couples having to travel to get married proves preferential treatment for hetero couples still exist. Of course if they refused them extra time to travel it just reinforces the preference towards heterosexual couples.

I agree but the right answer wasn't to give free leave to one group. The easy answer would have been all Soldiers are authorized 7 days free leave to get married in the U.S. and 10 if overseas.

That way it's fair for everyone.

No it's not. The same sex couple has to utilize their time to travel, apply for a certificate, wait, get married, and travel back. The hetero couple only has to get married wherever they are. The hetero couple now gets special privilege of extra leave and can utilize the vast majority of it as they see fit while the same sex couple is still trying to get married.

How is this fair again? Go ahead, explain it. Feel free to explain how it's fair financially as well. This ought to be good.

Most Soldiers straight or gay don't get married on some military base 1000's of miles from home. They get married in their home towns so their families can attend without incurring a huge cost. What each Soldier wishes to do with the 10 days would be there business.

I always wondered what a CDR would do if a Soldier said I want my 10 days free leave I'm marrying a man; then he goes home and marries a women. Would the Command really want to push this? What would happen if the Soldier said, yeah when I got home I changed my mind and married a women instead. Would they then try to retroactively charge him leave? I think it is too slippery most CDRs' would probably look the other way.
[/quote]

Great, so the same sex couple now cannot go back home and get married because their state doesn't allow gay marriage. So they spend their time travelling to a state that does allow gay marriage, incur the waiting times, get married, and travel back. They don't even get to see their family because they don't have time. Now you have just given hetero couples even more special treatment. 

You're sort of going the opposite way of your claim. Care to reverse course or shall we continue on? 

Sockigal

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2017, 09:15:58 AM »
This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

If that were the case Trump wouldn't be President and you wouldn't have millions of folks still running around yelling "ahhh Benghazi" or "Lock her up!" It works both ways. Don't pretend the liberal media has mind control over everyone.

Nice made up stats too. More alternative facts?
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

If you want to blame someone (or credit them) I would suggest first looking at the church. Same sex marriage has become much more acceptable. And if you were trying to chastise liberal media perhaps picking something other than gay marriage (ie equality) would drive home the point. You just credited them with shifting people's attitudes to be more accepting of others. Equality, just some wild, crazy agenda I suppose. Oh the horror!

For the record, I hate the media. One of the reasons I got rid of cable.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I don't give a care about gay marriage one way or another. What I worry about is the ability to so rapidly change the populations views on a subject. If the media and Hollywood can do that with gay marriage what may they decide is their next pet project? gun control, democracy vs socialism, hunting, self defense, taxation levels, granting citizenship to illegals what's next on the agenda? The sheep will follow whatever you put on the TV; the world is your oyster when you control the media, academia, and Hollywood.

Let me make it clear again I have zero issue with gay marriage. However I think it is unconstitutional to give any group preferential treatment before the law.

who has preferential treatment before the law?

Well to name a few: minorities, gays/lesbians, disabled, transgendered, and elderly. These classes are given preferential treatment before the law.

How do you think these groups receive preferential treatment before the law? Please give specific examples. I'm very confused by your statements. I think all laws protecting minority citizens are in place to level the playing field. An example is equal education for disabled students. If a school offers bus service, they must offer it to all students regardless of ability. In some instances that might mean a bus is provided with a wheelchair lift for students that must use wheelchairs. That way all students are transported to school equally. Equal treatment does not mean students or other minority citizens are given special rights, it means they are given what is needed to be equal as their peers.

Kiwi Fuzz

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #116 on: February 02, 2017, 09:19:24 AM »
There's no option for it but I couldn't vote as I'm just a permanent resident of the USA and not a citizen yet.

I have applied for naturalization since.

If I had been able to vote then I would have voted for Clinton as the lesser of two evils. She won all the Massachusetts electoral college votes so my lack of a vote didn't make or break anything, anyway. I was really hoping that Bernie Sanders would make it to the democratic nomination but US politics is far further to the right than I will likely ever be.

SuperMex

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #117 on: February 02, 2017, 09:24:37 AM »
Quote
However if in rights you mean special rights above and beyond what everyone else has, (example hate crime laws) then no.

What special rights are gay people demanding?  Serious question.

Let's say a couple of ignorant rednecks wait out side of a gay bar to gay bash. After beating up some poor half drunk gay guy they get caught; they are going to get hit with a hate crime almost for sure which carries a heavy minimum.

Now if we have the same exact story but it isn't a gay bar and the guy happens to not be gay. Then it's assault and battery

Why is this gay guy entitled to greater justice under the law?

Le Poisson

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #118 on: February 02, 2017, 09:25:20 AM »
Great, so the same sex couple now cannot go back home and get married because their state doesn't allow gay marriage. So they spend their time travelling to a state that does allow gay marriage, incur the waiting times, get married, and travel back. They don't even get to see their family because they don't have time. Now you have just given hetero couples even more special treatment. 

You're sort of going the opposite way of your claim. Care to reverse course or shall we continue on?

I care to continue...

In the weeks before their wedding, the gay couple had to arrange a license, find a hall and caterer and find a way for what supportive friends they had to attend. Much of this was arranged through third parties, but the legal bits had to be done in person. None of that time could be covered by anyone.

The straight couple had the option for a simple civil ceremony close to base followed by an elaborate wedding with family and friends back home. Where the straight couple took an afternoon to make the legal arrangements, the gay couple had to take at least 2 days and hope there were no bureaucratic delays.

SuperMex

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #119 on: February 02, 2017, 09:28:11 AM »


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation-idUSBREA321Y320140403

He got fired in 2014 for a donation made in 2008?  That's insane if that's all he did (ie make a donation to a now unpopular cause).  I think most rationale people would agree that views on gay marriage have evolved massively over the last 5 to 10 years.

This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

Gay couples are completely normal and have been around since the dawn of time. I, personally, am astounded that it has taken us so long to realize this.

By normal I mean mathematically common, I am not making a positive or negative value judgment I am saying they are not the norm. Either are people who are seven foot tall; therefore I don't think we should mandate that all doorways be raised in height to eight feet. I don't think people over seven feet tall should be a protected class requiring special rules to protect their rights.

As an example because some states don't allow same sex marriage same sex couples are granted 10 days free leave to go get married in the Army. This is an entitlement not given to heterosexual couples. Again I am not into giving ANY group special treatment.

Come on man. This is getting ridiculous. Same sex marriage is not legal in every state and certainly not legal in many countries. The "extra" leave is granted so couples can travel to where same sex marriage is legal. And it's 7 days within the continental US and 10 days if you are stationed Internationally.

That is correct; there is a name when you give one group a right that others don't have. It is called preferential treatment and I am against it at all times

Yep me too. Which is why gay marriage bans still in place in some states is utterly ridiculous. And same sex couples having to travel to get married proves preferential treatment for hetero couples still exist. Of course if they refused them extra time to travel it just reinforces the preference towards heterosexual couples.

I agree but the right answer wasn't to give free leave to one group. The easy answer would have been all Soldiers are authorized 7 days free leave to get married in the U.S. and 10 if overseas.

That way it's fair for everyone.

No it's not. The same sex couple has to utilize their time to travel, apply for a certificate, wait, get married, and travel back. The hetero couple only has to get married wherever they are. The hetero couple now gets special privilege of extra leave and can utilize the vast majority of it as they see fit while the same sex couple is still trying to get married.

How is this fair again? Go ahead, explain it. Feel free to explain how it's fair financially as well. This ought to be good.

Most Soldiers straight or gay don't get married on some military base 1000's of miles from home. They get married in their home towns so their families can attend without incurring a huge cost. What each Soldier wishes to do with the 10 days would be there business.

I always wondered what a CDR would do if a Soldier said I want my 10 days free leave I'm marrying a man; then he goes home and marries a women. Would the Command really want to push this? What would happen if the Soldier said, yeah when I got home I changed my mind and married a women instead. Would they then try to retroactively charge him leave? I think it is too slippery most CDRs' would probably look the other way.

Great, so the same sex couple now cannot go back home and get married because their state doesn't allow gay marriage. So they spend their time travelling to a state that does allow gay marriage, incur the waiting times, get married, and travel back. They don't even get to see their family because they don't have time. Now you have just given hetero couples even more special treatment. 

You're sort of going the opposite way of your claim. Care to reverse course or shall we continue on?
[/quote]

It's equal leave not equal outcome. You are also making the assumption the same sex couple is in a state that doesn't allow for marriage.

Glenstache

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #120 on: February 02, 2017, 09:30:22 AM »
Quote
However if in rights you mean special rights above and beyond what everyone else has, (example hate crime laws) then no.

What special rights are gay people demanding?  Serious question.

Let's say a couple of ignorant rednecks wait out side of a gay bar to gay bash. After beating up some poor half drunk gay guy they get caught; they are going to get hit with a hate crime almost for sure which carries a heavy minimum.

Now if we have the same exact story but it isn't a gay bar and the guy happens to not be gay. Then it's assault and battery

Why is this gay guy entitled to greater justice under the law?

The gay person and straight person would receive equal protection against getting jumped. However, the crime perpetrated is actually different and the consequences should be different. It is a fundamentally different thing to be specifically targeted because of being of a specific creed, race, orientation, etc. In addition to the physical battery, it is an implicit denial of the concept of people being treated equally. Why should racist/biased assholes be normalized?

Le Poisson

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #121 on: February 02, 2017, 09:30:40 AM »
Quote
However if in rights you mean special rights above and beyond what everyone else has, (example hate crime laws) then no.

What special rights are gay people demanding?  Serious question.

Let's say a couple of ignorant rednecks wait out side of a gay bar to gay bash. After beating up some poor half drunk gay guy they get caught; they are going to get hit with a hate crime almost for sure which carries a heavy minimum.

Now if we have the same exact story but it isn't a gay bar and the guy happens to not be gay. Then it's assault and battery

Why is this gay guy entitled to greater justice under the law?

That's not justice, that's protection. And fringe groups, minorities, etc. need that protection because of prejudices etc. against them. The gay is only protected by hate laws if he is beat up for being gay. If he's beat up because he skimped on paying his share of the tab, its simple assault/battery.

Incidentally, that same protection is afforded to you. If a Chinese street gang picks you off as a round-eye and puts some sick Ninja moves on you for being white - the same protection is afforded.

The charge is connected to the motive, not the crime.

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #122 on: February 02, 2017, 09:37:10 AM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation-idUSBREA321Y320140403

He got fired in 2014 for a donation made in 2008?  That's insane if that's all he did (ie make a donation to a now unpopular cause).  I think most rationale people would agree that views on gay marriage have evolved massively over the last 5 to 10 years.

This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

Gay couples are completely normal and have been around since the dawn of time. I, personally, am astounded that it has taken us so long to realize this.

By normal I mean mathematically common, I am not making a positive or negative value judgment I am saying they are not the norm. Either are people who are seven foot tall; therefore I don't think we should mandate that all doorways be raised in height to eight feet. I don't think people over seven feet tall should be a protected class requiring special rules to protect their rights.

As an example because some states don't allow same sex marriage same sex couples are granted 10 days free leave to go get married in the Army. This is an entitlement not given to heterosexual couples. Again I am not into giving ANY group special treatment.

Come on man. This is getting ridiculous. Same sex marriage is not legal in every state and certainly not legal in many countries. The "extra" leave is granted so couples can travel to where same sex marriage is legal. And it's 7 days within the continental US and 10 days if you are stationed Internationally.

That is correct; there is a name when you give one group a right that others don't have. It is called preferential treatment and I am against it at all times

Yep me too. Which is why gay marriage bans still in place in some states is utterly ridiculous. And same sex couples having to travel to get married proves preferential treatment for hetero couples still exist. Of course if they refused them extra time to travel it just reinforces the preference towards heterosexual couples.

I agree but the right answer wasn't to give free leave to one group. The easy answer would have been all Soldiers are authorized 7 days free leave to get married in the U.S. and 10 if overseas.

That way it's fair for everyone.

No it's not. The same sex couple has to utilize their time to travel, apply for a certificate, wait, get married, and travel back. The hetero couple only has to get married wherever they are. The hetero couple now gets special privilege of extra leave and can utilize the vast majority of it as they see fit while the same sex couple is still trying to get married.

How is this fair again? Go ahead, explain it. Feel free to explain how it's fair financially as well. This ought to be good.

Most Soldiers straight or gay don't get married on some military base 1000's of miles from home. They get married in their home towns so their families can attend without incurring a huge cost. What each Soldier wishes to do with the 10 days would be there business.

I always wondered what a CDR would do if a Soldier said I want my 10 days free leave I'm marrying a man; then he goes home and marries a women. Would the Command really want to push this? What would happen if the Soldier said, yeah when I got home I changed my mind and married a women instead. Would they then try to retroactively charge him leave? I think it is too slippery most CDRs' would probably look the other way.

Great, so the same sex couple now cannot go back home and get married because their state doesn't allow gay marriage. So they spend their time travelling to a state that does allow gay marriage, incur the waiting times, get married, and travel back. They don't even get to see their family because they don't have time. Now you have just given hetero couples even more special treatment. 

You're sort of going the opposite way of your claim. Care to reverse course or shall we continue on?

It's equal leave not equal outcome. You are also making the assumption the same sex couple is in a state that doesn't allow for marriage.

Here, Sunshine. I fixed the quotes for you. So all this raving can be properly attributed.

Here is a link to the memo, promulgating the non-chargeable leave to same-sex couples getting hitched. It applies only to Soliders who's duty station is located more than 100 miles from a U.S. state that allows gay marriage. Thus BeginnerStache is correct.

Research, it works bitches.

MasterStache

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #123 on: February 02, 2017, 09:37:19 AM »


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation-idUSBREA321Y320140403

He got fired in 2014 for a donation made in 2008?  That's insane if that's all he did (ie make a donation to a now unpopular cause).  I think most rationale people would agree that views on gay marriage have evolved massively over the last 5 to 10 years.

This is one of the reasons why I choose to have a plan B of leaving. I would say that these views on gay marriage didn't evolve they were easily manipulated by media and Hollywood. All of a sudden out of no where on almost every show they started having quasi normal acting same sex couples and pretending like it was normal. On many shows the frequency of these couples made it appear as if 20-30% of couples were same sex.

In all honesty I don't care about gay marriage at all one way or another. I think gays should have the opportunity to be just as miserable as all us hetero married people. That being said how rapidly the media was able to shift the view of the entire nation from about 70% against to 70% for scared the crap out of me.

That shows how easy our society is to manipulate and sway from any of their view points. Because the media is dominated and controlled by the left they can at will push any wild agenda they want.

That is very scary to me.

Gay couples are completely normal and have been around since the dawn of time. I, personally, am astounded that it has taken us so long to realize this.

By normal I mean mathematically common, I am not making a positive or negative value judgment I am saying they are not the norm. Either are people who are seven foot tall; therefore I don't think we should mandate that all doorways be raised in height to eight feet. I don't think people over seven feet tall should be a protected class requiring special rules to protect their rights.

As an example because some states don't allow same sex marriage same sex couples are granted 10 days free leave to go get married in the Army. This is an entitlement not given to heterosexual couples. Again I am not into giving ANY group special treatment.

Come on man. This is getting ridiculous. Same sex marriage is not legal in every state and certainly not legal in many countries. The "extra" leave is granted so couples can travel to where same sex marriage is legal. And it's 7 days within the continental US and 10 days if you are stationed Internationally.

That is correct; there is a name when you give one group a right that others don't have. It is called preferential treatment and I am against it at all times

Yep me too. Which is why gay marriage bans still in place in some states is utterly ridiculous. And same sex couples having to travel to get married proves preferential treatment for hetero couples still exist. Of course if they refused them extra time to travel it just reinforces the preference towards heterosexual couples.

I agree but the right answer wasn't to give free leave to one group. The easy answer would have been all Soldiers are authorized 7 days free leave to get married in the U.S. and 10 if overseas.

That way it's fair for everyone.

No it's not. The same sex couple has to utilize their time to travel, apply for a certificate, wait, get married, and travel back. The hetero couple only has to get married wherever they are. The hetero couple now gets special privilege of extra leave and can utilize the vast majority of it as they see fit while the same sex couple is still trying to get married.

How is this fair again? Go ahead, explain it. Feel free to explain how it's fair financially as well. This ought to be good.

Most Soldiers straight or gay don't get married on some military base 1000's of miles from home. They get married in their home towns so their families can attend without incurring a huge cost. What each Soldier wishes to do with the 10 days would be there business.

I always wondered what a CDR would do if a Soldier said I want my 10 days free leave I'm marrying a man; then he goes home and marries a women. Would the Command really want to push this? What would happen if the Soldier said, yeah when I got home I changed my mind and married a women instead. Would they then try to retroactively charge him leave? I think it is too slippery most CDRs' would probably look the other way.

Great, so the same sex couple now cannot go back home and get married because their state doesn't allow gay marriage. So they spend their time travelling to a state that does allow gay marriage, incur the waiting times, get married, and travel back. They don't even get to see their family because they don't have time. Now you have just given hetero couples even more special treatment. 

You're sort of going the opposite way of your claim. Care to reverse course or shall we continue on?

It's equal leave not equal outcome. You are also making the assumption the same sex couple is in a state that doesn't allow for marriage.
[/quote]


A same sex couple stationed in a state that allows same sex marriage does not qualify for the leave. You should really get to know your own military laws as a vet. In fact leave is based on travel, time for paperwork, etc. Not everyone gets 7 or 10 days. So a hetero couple wanting to get married would essentially NEVER qualify for the leave.

Edit: Link above (thanks).

Miliitary Directive for Same sex Marriage: "Soldiers who are part of a same-sex couple and desire to get married will be granted administrative leave that allows them to travel to the "nearest state (or the District of Columbia) or jurisdiction that allows the couple to get married. Soldiers not stationed in a state or jurisdiction where same-sex marriage is legal, or who are more than 100 miles from such a state, are entitled to as much as two days of administrative leave for travel, if they live in the continental United States; or as much as five days of administrative leave for travel if they live outside the continental United States. Those Soldiers are also entitled to administrative leave for adherence to the "waiting period" required by those states in advance of a marriage."

And.......

"Soldiers stationed in states like California, Washington, Maryland, or New York are entitled to no administrative leave at all. Same-sex marriages are legal in those states. Soldiers assigned to locations that are less than 100 miles from such a jurisdiction will also not be entitled to the administrative leave."
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 09:43:53 AM by BeginnerStache »

Le Poisson

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #124 on: February 02, 2017, 09:58:46 AM »
I wonder what happens with couples who are part of a special religion/cult that requires their marriage be performed at a defined place - Mormons need to travel to a temple, for instance.

Do the American Forces allow an extended leave for that as well? Not poking the bear, but sincerely curious.

MasterStache

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #125 on: February 02, 2017, 10:10:35 AM »
I wonder what happens with couples who are part of a special religion/cult that requires their marriage be performed at a defined place - Mormons need to travel to a temple, for instance.

Do the American Forces allow an extended leave for that as well? Not poking the bear, but sincerely curious.

That's a valid question. I'm not sure it would qualify under any sort of marriage leave since it is religious based. And Mormons are free to be married however they chose, including in a conventional ceremony at a church or in Vegas by Elvis.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #126 on: February 02, 2017, 10:12:31 AM »
I wonder what happens with couples who are part of a special religion/cult that requires their marriage be performed at a defined place - Mormons need to travel to a temple, for instance.

Do the American Forces allow an extended leave for that as well? Not poking the bear, but sincerely curious.

Officially there's no specific 'marriage leave'. Service members just take regular leave, which counts against their 30 days. That being had, if on of my sailors was getting married, I'd cobble together as much liberty and permissive leave as I possibly could. It's at the CO's discretion. And since we know CO's drool, XO's rule, it's really at the XO's level.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #127 on: February 02, 2017, 10:31:02 AM »
Really don't understand what is hard to get about the policy.  You normally never get free leave because you can always go down to the courthouse on lunch break and get married.  For this narrow group of people, that was not an option, they could not legally get married at the local courthouse (in some places).  To make it equitable, they are given the time to travel to a place where they can get married at the local courthouse.


It is no different IMO than being allowed a little more time to run your PRT test when at elevation.  You are not getting special treatment, just taking into account the facts of the situation may have as effect.

SisterX

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #128 on: February 02, 2017, 12:14:49 PM »
I was really hoping that Bernie Sanders would make it to the democratic nomination but US politics is far further to the right than I will likely ever be.

+1

Really don't understand what is hard to get about the policy.  You normally never get free leave because you can always go down to the courthouse on lunch break and get married.  For this narrow group of people, that was not an option, they could not legally get married at the local courthouse (in some places).  To make it equitable, they are given the time to travel to a place where they can get married at the local courthouse.


It is no different IMO than being allowed a little more time to run your PRT test when at elevation.  You are not getting special treatment, just taking into account the facts of the situation may have as effect.

Some people will just never truly get this idea.

Le Poisson

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #129 on: February 02, 2017, 12:18:57 PM »
I wonder what happens with couples who are part of a special religion/cult that requires their marriage be performed at a defined place - Mormons need to travel to a temple, for instance.

Do the American Forces allow an extended leave for that as well? Not poking the bear, but sincerely curious.

That's a valid question. I'm not sure it would qualify under any sort of marriage leave since it is religious based. And Mormons are free to be married however they chose, including in a conventional ceremony at a church or in Vegas by Elvis.

True - I was talking about the actual sealing ceremony. Some will reject a civil ceremony preferring the sealing.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #130 on: February 02, 2017, 12:40:45 PM »
Really don't understand what is hard to get about the policy.  You normally never get free leave because you can always go down to the courthouse on lunch break and get married.  For this narrow group of people, that was not an option, they could not legally get married at the local courthouse (in some places).  To make it equitable, they are given the time to travel to a place where they can get married at the local courthouse.


It is no different IMO than being allowed a little more time to run your PRT test when at elevation.  You are not getting special treatment, just taking into account the facts of the situation may have as effect.
I agree.  The issue is not with the military, it is with states that won't perform gay marriage. Since the military can not change those laws, they are ensuring their employees fair opportunity to marry. (Fair, not equal). 

Freedom2016

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #131 on: February 02, 2017, 01:56:41 PM »
I'm confused. Is this lengthy debate about military leave re states that don't allow gay marriage - is this a debate about how things used to be? The military memo Sailor Sam linked above is from 2013. In 2015 the SC legalized gay marriage in the Obergefell case.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/269770341/Supreme-Court-Decision-Making-Gay-Marriage-is-Legal-in-All-50-States

I kinda don't get it unless the point was to have a philosophical debate, not a debate about the current facts on the ground. (?)

Sailor Sam

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #132 on: February 02, 2017, 02:23:14 PM »
We're debating over how things used to be.

Though, as far as I know the 2013 memo is still in place, and just doesn't apply to states any longer. Much like the guidance that requires Sailors to report losing their paybook within 24 hours. No more paybooks; regulation still in place.

I suppose someone could have pointed out Obergefell functionally negated the memo, but eh, I'm not sure the original protester would have cared.


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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #133 on: February 02, 2017, 03:04:47 PM »
I voted for Clinton, but I'm not exactly happy with how things turned out! I suppose your poll meant that I voted for Clinton and would do the same today.

I would. And my vote would be as irrelevant today as it was in November, because I live in a majority-Republican state. Despite the fact that people in this state claimed to like Trump because he was going to change things and drain the swamp, our two Senators have been serving in Congress since 1980 and 1996. They are happily rubber-stamping everything he wants to do, as they have done with every other Republican president since they started getting the chance to do so.

I'm not sure I understand the concept of voting for a "change" president and yet being fine with the same "swamp" representatives decade after decade. If Trump keeps one promise, I hope it's that he manages to get some term limits into Congress - but I doubt it'll happen.

I'm currently taking a break from Facebook. I've found a lot of what is happening to be depressing. As an immigrant, the most recent events hit me emotionally on a personal level. Happily, the permanent resident issue has been re-thought, and judicial stays issued against deportations, but I was disheartened by how many people thought it was ok to a) violate the rights of legal permanent residents, and b) deport people without due process.

I saw a lot of comments about how immigrants are low quality people, "steal" jobs, don't belong in the USA, etc. More than one person told me, "Well, we don't mean your kind of immigrant." (by which I suppose they mean the white kind?)

When I became a permanent resident and then a citizen, I had to pass a health screening, prove that my residency was legitimate, prove my marriage was real, take a civics exam, pass a background check, do several interviews, present my tax returns, and more than once answer questions about whether I've ever been a Nazi or drink excessively, list every instance I'd ever entered and left the USA, who I've been married to, what schools I attended or jobs I've had, whether I've engaged in voting fraud, failed to pay child support, etc etc etc.

In the list of "bad" questions that can result in a citizenship application being denied is "Have you ever been excluded from the United States?" Kinda sucks for all those people that they now have to answer "Yes" because of a thoughtless executive order. Oh well, not our problem, right?

I am forced to wonder what it is that some of these non-immigrants have done lately to show that they're an asset to this country.

I saw someone assert that the Constitution only applies to citizens. I just went to bed in the middle of the afternoon after that. That question was covered in my citizenship process, too.

radram

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #134 on: February 02, 2017, 03:10:35 PM »
I voted Clinton, and I'm happy about it.

That being said, I wasn't thrilled with Clinton. I did not like her, and I did not trust her. I loved Bernie. He was my guy. In my 25 years as an adult, I had NEVER given money to ANY political campaign. I donated to Bernie's campaign numerous times (small amounts).

That being said (again!), when it came down to Trump versus Clinton, I didn't feel I had a choice. She was at least an adult and very knowledgeable about a wide variety of issues.

I truly think Trump is mentally unstable, or at the very least, does not have the temperment to be president. He doesn't have restraint or diplomacy or any nuance at all. I disagree with Pence on ALMOST EVERYTHING but I would still sleep far better with Pence driving the car.

I did not protest yet (although many of my friends did!)  I am waiting for his inevitable moves against the LGBT community and his moves in favor of Christians being able to discriminate against others. Oh I'll be out there protesting then, either with my body or my $ or both. The ACLU is going to have a banner fund-raising year.
I have identical views. I settled for Clinton, even though I loved Bernie's ideology and energy! I do believe, like Bernie that very few people have too much money & power in government which has led to a rapid decline in the middle class. The gap is getting wider and wider, while we fight about hot button issues like abortion, transgender rights, immigration, the war against Christmas, taking away guns, climate change and LGBTQ rights. I hate that the GOP constantly uses these issues to stir emotions to receive votes based on fear. And Fox sensationalizes or just makes up almost anything they want. We are busy fighting over these issues where very little compromise can exist anyway. Yes I have views on all those issues and they are really important topics, but while we are busy looking at the fireworks over the White House congress is using this time to introduce all kinds of bills that most American's don't agree with:

H.R. 193 American Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2017: Withdraws the US from the United Nations.

H.R. 586 Sanctity of Human Life Act:   each human life begins with fertilization, cloning, or its equivalent, at which time every human has all the legal and constitutional attributes and privileges of personhood; and (3) Congress, each state, the District of Columbia, and each U.S. territory have the authority to protect all human lives.

H.R. 621:  The Secretary of the Interior to sell Federal Lands in Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah and Wyoming.

H.R. 7: No taxpayer  funding for abortion and insurance companies who do business with the federal government cannot fund abortions (which is just about every insurance company that exists).

H.R. 2802: Prohibits the federal government from taking discriminatory action against a person on the basis that such person believes or acts in accordance with a religious belief or moral conviction that marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman and sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage. (There goes protections for the LGBTQ community. Lets people and businesses discriminate or not serve due to sexual orientation)

On top of these bills they are introducing lots of bills that dismantle environmental protections, one even dissolving  law enforcement functions of the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management. Looks like the EPA is getting dismantled also in a new bill to be introduced soon.

I'm just so sad thinking about the world that the current congress is carving out for our country right now. I feel for Federal workers whom have spent their careers dedicated to the service of others. I feel for our environment. I remember what it was like growing up in Southern California before any smog regulations. It wasn't that different from China cities during the summer. I remember burning eyes and lungs. I feel for our LGBTQ community.
^^^This so much! I voted Clinton and preferred her over Bernie Sanders but not thrilled with either. Even Joking Joe Biden would have been a better choice IMHO. If he had run would we still have Trump? Im not sure but lots of people did not like Clinton .

I am a big fan of Biden. I think he would have won and it would not have been close.
 

Midwest

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #135 on: February 02, 2017, 03:18:13 PM »

^^^This so much! I voted Clinton and preferred her over Bernie Sanders but not thrilled with either. Even Joking Joe Biden would have been a better choice IMHO. If he had run would we still have Trump? Im not sure but lots of people did not like Clinton .

I am a big fan of Biden. I think he would have won and it would not have been close.

I think Biden's goofy, but he would have beat Trump. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 03:26:48 PM by Midwest »

radram

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #136 on: February 02, 2017, 03:21:10 PM »

^^^This so much! I voted Clinton and preferred her over Bernie Sanders but not thrilled with either. Even Joking Joe Biden would have been a better choice IMHO. If he had run would we still have Trump? Im not sure but lots of people did not like Clinton .

I am a big fan of Biden. I think he would have won and it would not have been close.

I think Biden's goofy, but he would have beat Trump.
[/quote]

I never said he wasn't goofy. I'm goofy. That's one of the things I like about him.

Chris22

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #137 on: February 02, 2017, 03:27:27 PM »
I would've happily voted for Uncle Joe.  Don't agree with him on much, but I believe he's a good guy.

Le Poisson

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2017, 04:30:36 PM »
What is with the bad quotes in this thread!!!

Metric Mouse

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #139 on: February 02, 2017, 04:35:19 PM »
Thanks Biden!

MasterStache

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #140 on: February 02, 2017, 05:40:37 PM »
What is with the bad quotes in this thread!!!

It's Obama's fault!

radram

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #141 on: February 02, 2017, 08:23:20 PM »
OK so I'm going to place the blame for a Trump win squarely on Joe Biden's shoulders for refusing to run. Bad Joe bad!

I bet he would have ran if he could. Losing a wife and daughter, followed by a son some decades later. Wow. I can understand why he didn't have it in him to run. I would not wish that agony on my worst enemy.

calimom

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #142 on: February 02, 2017, 08:46:12 PM »
Joe Biden's a good guy and respected around the globe.

Anyone else think "SuperMex" is one big homophobe?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #143 on: February 02, 2017, 09:24:00 PM »
OK so I'm going to place the blame for a Trump win squarely on Joe Biden's shoulders for refusing to run. Bad Joe bad!

I bet he would have ran if he could. Losing a wife and daughter, followed by a son some decades later. Wow. I can understand why he didn't have it in him to run. I would not wish that agony on my worst enemy.
I can imagine that being VP was enough of a taste of the crap a president has to deal with on a daily basis that he may have been turned off of the job.

GuitarStv

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2017, 06:58:31 AM »
I don't give a care about gay marriage one way or another.

I support gay marriage because it is equal.

At least I'm beginning to see why you were such a fan of Trump.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #145 on: February 03, 2017, 08:30:59 AM »
OK so I'm going to place the blame for a Trump win squarely on Joe Biden's shoulders for refusing to run. Bad Joe bad!

I bet he would have ran if he could. Losing a wife and daughter, followed by a son some decades later. Wow. I can understand why he didn't have it in him to run. I would not wish that agony on my worst enemy.
I can imagine that being VP was enough of a taste of the crap a president has to deal with on a daily basis that he may have been turned off of the job.

He has floated a 2020 run and is staying active.  He has said the death of his son was too recent for him to focus on the race, and he knew based on how the primaries were going that if he got on a debate state and someone started baiting him with "you are running because of your son" or "you shouldn't run because you should be mourning your son.", he would likely walk across the stage and beat the ever loving **** out of them.  Which would be awesome TV, but probably not good for election chances. 

Gin1984

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2017, 08:32:41 AM »
OK so I'm going to place the blame for a Trump win squarely on Joe Biden's shoulders for refusing to run. Bad Joe bad!

I bet he would have ran if he could. Losing a wife and daughter, followed by a son some decades later. Wow. I can understand why he didn't have it in him to run. I would not wish that agony on my worst enemy.
I can imagine that being VP was enough of a taste of the crap a president has to deal with on a daily basis that he may have been turned off of the job.

He has floated a 2020 run and is staying active.  He has said the death of his son was too recent for him to focus on the race, and he knew based on how the primaries were going that if he got on a debate state and someone started baiting him with "you are running because of your son" or "you shouldn't run because you should be mourning your son.", he would likely walk across the stage and beat the ever loving **** out of them.  Which would be awesome TV, but probably not good for election chances.
Eh, I think I'd donate some money to his legal fees if he did that.  And I'd still vote for him.  I like Biden because he calls the GOP out on their lying.  And I do think he would have won because of that.  Clinton could not do the same because everyone would have called her a bitch for it. 

deadlymonkey

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #147 on: February 03, 2017, 08:35:06 AM »
OK so I'm going to place the blame for a Trump win squarely on Joe Biden's shoulders for refusing to run. Bad Joe bad!

I bet he would have ran if he could. Losing a wife and daughter, followed by a son some decades later. Wow. I can understand why he didn't have it in him to run. I would not wish that agony on my worst enemy.
I can imagine that being VP was enough of a taste of the crap a president has to deal with on a daily basis that he may have been turned off of the job.

He has floated a 2020 run and is staying active.  He has said the death of his son was too recent for him to focus on the race, and he knew based on how the primaries were going that if he got on a debate state and someone started baiting him with "you are running because of your son" or "you shouldn't run because you should be mourning your son.", he would likely walk across the stage and beat the ever loving **** out of them.  Which would be awesome TV, but probably not good for election chances.
Eh, I think I'd donate some money to his legal fees if he did that.  And I'd still vote for him.  I like Biden because he calls the GOP out on their lying.  And I do think he would have won because of that.  Clinton could not do the same because everyone would have called her a bitch for it.

Pretty sure either Biden or Sanders would have won, but he had legit concerns at the time.  I expect Biden, Booker and or Franken to run in 2020.

Chris22

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2017, 08:50:38 AM »
OK so I'm going to place the blame for a Trump win squarely on Joe Biden's shoulders for refusing to run. Bad Joe bad!

I bet he would have ran if he could. Losing a wife and daughter, followed by a son some decades later. Wow. I can understand why he didn't have it in him to run. I would not wish that agony on my worst enemy.
I can imagine that being VP was enough of a taste of the crap a president has to deal with on a daily basis that he may have been turned off of the job.

He has floated a 2020 run and is staying active.  He has said the death of his son was too recent for him to focus on the race, and he knew based on how the primaries were going that if he got on a debate state and someone started baiting him with "you are running because of your son" or "you shouldn't run because you should be mourning your son.", he would likely walk across the stage and beat the ever loving **** out of them.  Which would be awesome TV, but probably not good for election chances.

If he did that he'd probably win unanimously. 

golden1

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Re: Election follow up poll
« Reply #149 on: February 03, 2017, 08:51:53 AM »
Quote
I would've happily voted for Uncle Joe.  Don't agree with him on much, but I believe he's a good guy.

Yeah, I wish he would have run in retrospect.  I do worry about his age for 2020.