Author Topic: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios  (Read 21745 times)

maizefolk

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #250 on: October 18, 2020, 07:27:54 PM »
I would define altruism as "behavior that benefits others at ones own expense". The motivation for altruistic behavior really doesn't come into it.

But if you'd like to define the word altruism out of existence but requiring people feel bad (or neutral) about their actions in order for it to count as altruism, go for it. I just don't think a lot of other folks are going to line up to start using the same new criteria as you.

Out of curiosity, do you belief that the fact that people feel good when they help others is solely the result of cultural conditioning (as you previously stated you felt all ethical sense was)? Or do you attribute the positive emotions people feel when helping others to be something innate?

Your average person today might feel positive emotions for helping out a gay couple who is being persecuted for simply trying to live their lives.  Eighty years ago the odds are that the same person would feel positive emotions for persecuting the same gay couple for being aberrant freaks.  The positive emotion seems to be largely cultural.


That's trying to shift the question to a separate one about which other people a person will decide to treat altruistically or not.

My question is about the good feelings a person gets from helping others, not which others (if any) a person chooses to help. Helping other people without any material reason to do so feels good.

GuitarStv

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #251 on: October 19, 2020, 07:21:46 AM »
I would define altruism as "behavior that benefits others at ones own expense". The motivation for altruistic behavior really doesn't come into it.

But if you'd like to define the word altruism out of existence but requiring people feel bad (or neutral) about their actions in order for it to count as altruism, go for it. I just don't think a lot of other folks are going to line up to start using the same new criteria as you.

Under the dictionary.com definition that I've been using if you personally benefit from an action then it's not considered altruism.

Under your definition if I threw a handful of two dollar coins really hard at some homeless people while laughing maniacally that would be altruism . . . as they would benefit from the extra money and it's costing me a few coins.  That I get tremendous personal pleasure making the poor dance to avoid my coins and then watching them pick them up off the ground doesn't change the altruistic nature of my actions.  Is that correct, or am I mis-reading what you wrote?



Out of curiosity, do you belief that the fact that people feel good when they help others is solely the result of cultural conditioning (as you previously stated you felt all ethical sense was)? Or do you attribute the positive emotions people feel when helping others to be something innate?

Your average person today might feel positive emotions for helping out a gay couple who is being persecuted for simply trying to live their lives.  Eighty years ago the odds are that the same person would feel positive emotions for persecuting the same gay couple for being aberrant freaks.  The positive emotion seems to be largely cultural.


That's trying to shift the question to a separate one about which other people a person will decide to treat altruistically or not.

My question is about the good feelings a person gets from helping others, not which others (if any) a person chooses to help. Helping other people without any material reason to do so feels good.

My intent is not to shift the question at all.  It's more a root cause analysis, while you appear to be examining the surface.  I agree with you - especially the bolded part.  Choosing to help others feels good.  But I'd argue that how you determine what is helping other people is determined by the time you live in and the society you claim membership to.

In my example, both the person today and the person in the past believe they're helping other people.  In the first case the people being helped are the gay couple (who are under attack from bigots).  In the second case the people being helped are the rest of 'normal' society - who are 'under attack' from alleged deviants.  In both cases the person doing the deed feels good deep down inside - without any material benefit.

So it may feel to do what's right . . . but how you determine what's right is societally determined.  So ultimately society is responsible for how you feel.  (This can also get conceptually tricky because while the majority of folks in a society latch on to the rules of that dominant society . . . some minority of people run with ethical ideals of alternate societies.  Good examples of this would be Nazi resistors like Schindler, or anti-gay biblical fundamentalists in the US now.  They latch on to an ethical ideal that is not mainstream.  It's a societal idea, but not one created by the current society in power.)

maizefolk

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #252 on: October 19, 2020, 08:59:31 AM »
So I've asked you twice what your view is on why helping others feels good (inborn property of humans or societal training), and both times you've pivoted back to the separate question of who gets helped and what constitutes help. I don't understand what's so bad about having an opinion on why helping others (with no material reward for doing so) feels good, but I will respect your unwillingness to answer this question and stop asking it.

Similarly, you keep trying to debate the definition of the word altruism. Hitting people with two dollar coins is hurting them, so I, personally, would not refer to this as altruistic behavior. You can call the same behavior whatever you want, so long as we agree on what is actually happening: people are being hurt by being hit with large coins.

The reason I find your reading of the dictionary.com definition for altruism is not a useful one is that, if it was the widely adopted definition of altruism (people only choose to do things if they feel good about that choice; any choice you feel good about is, by your definition, not altruism) then altruism would be a concept that by definition can't exist (like using "dark white" to describe a color in english*). So why bother having a word for it? But again, you're welcome to use that definition.

It's just seems silly to me for you to try to convince other people who don't read the definition the same way you do that altruism doesn't exist, when what you're actually saying is that your special definition of the word doesn't allow for altruism to exist.

*This concept could make sense in a language which lacks words for gray or black, which is why I'm constraining the example to "in english."

GuitarStv

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #253 on: October 19, 2020, 10:01:39 AM »
So I've asked you twice what your view is on why helping others feels good (inborn property of humans or societal training), and both times you've pivoted back to the separate question of who gets helped and what constitutes help. I don't understand what's so bad about having an opinion on why helping others (with no material reward for doing so) feels good, but I will respect your unwillingness to answer this question and stop asking it.

I agree with you - especially the bolded part.  Choosing to help others feels good.  But I'd argue that how you determine what is helping other people is determined by the time you live in and the society you claim membership to.

In my example, both the person today and the person in the past believe they're helping other people.  In the first case the people being helped are the gay couple (who are under attack from bigots).  In the second case the people being helped are the rest of 'normal' society - who are 'under attack' from alleged deviants.  In both cases the person doing the deed feels good deep down inside - without any material benefit.

So it may feel good to do what's right . . . but how you determine what's right is societally determined.  So ultimately society is responsible for how you feel.  (This can also get conceptually tricky because while the majority of folks in a society latch on to the rules of that dominant society . . . some minority of people run with ethical ideals of alternate societies.  Good examples of this would be Nazi resistors like Schindler, or anti-gay biblical fundamentalists in the US now.  They latch on to an ethical ideal that is not mainstream.  It's a societal idea, but not one created by the current society in power.)

I've been trying as well as I can to answer your (difficult) question.  If you're asking me if the feeling good part is innate or derived from society, I don't know.

It's true that someone who does what they believe to be helping others feels good doing it.  It's also true that this feeling is deeply entwined with societal conditioning as it's society that determines what 'helping' is in most cases.  I don't know how anyone would be able to separate the two linked aspects to give you a logically consistent answer.



Similarly, you keep trying to debate the definition of the word altruism. Hitting people with two dollar coins is hurting them, so I, personally, would not refer to this as altruistic behavior. You can call the same behavior whatever you want, so long as we agree on what is actually happening: people are being hurt by being hit with large coins.

Altruism's definition wasn't up for debate until you decided not to like the dictionary.com entry.  That is consistently the one I've been using.  You mentioned an alternate definition from an unknown source that you believed was more acceptable:

Altruism: "behavior that benefits others at ones own expense"

So now let's look at my example and how it relates to your definition:
Is money (even thrown money) a benefit to the poor?
Does giving money to the poor come at ones own expense?

Although both criteria for acceptance you defined are met the scenario I presented you with, I would not define that behaviour as altruism - and neither do you.  Good, we're in agreement.  But then we both appear to agree that your definition is not valid.  This seems strange.  Can you explain and/or correct the definition that you're using to be a workable one?



The reason I find your reading of the dictionary.com definition for altruism is not a useful one is that, if it was the widely adopted definition of altruism (people only choose to do things if they feel good about that choice; any choice you feel good about is, by your definition, not altruism) then altruism would be a concept that by definition can't exist (like using "dark white" to describe a color in english*). So why bother having a word for it? But again, you're welcome to use that definition.

It's just seems silly to me for you to try to convince other people who don't read the definition the same way you do that altruism doesn't exist, when what you're actually saying is that your special definition of the word doesn't allow for altruism to exist.

*This concept could make sense in a language which lacks words for gray or black, which is why I'm constraining the example to "in english."

If you don't like my reading of the dictionary.com definition, please offer one of your own.  (Ideally this would be one that you also agree with.)

You're going to get really excited when you look up the English definitions of 'flammable' and 'inflammable'!
 Why bother having a word for it?  I don't know.  English is a strange language.  Feel free to look up it's etymology.  But it sounds like you're more hankering for some of the hard logic and defined precision of Orwell's newspeak.  Double plus good effort!

ctuser1

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #254 on: October 19, 2020, 10:33:18 AM »
Just wanted to chime in and say that the latest kerfuffle is unlikely to be "resolved" in an internet board.

Does altruism exist? If it exists, is it worth doing? There is clearly an answer that helps the humanity and human survival. But then, if you are a stoic, or a person who is close to nirvana and oneness with Buddha - then you are supposed to have stopped caring for all that sh*t.

At this point, all these philosophies bring about additional "rules" that appear not-natural and very much shoehorned to me, all with an aim to further the interests of the humanity.

To me, this appears a scenario that kinda' sorta' indicate the "incompleteness" of any logical system (to be fair, mathematician's will likely kill me if I used the term "Godel Incomplete" here - but it seems similar to what philosophers would likely call their version of Godel Incomplete).

So, while I am enjoying all this brouhaha from the sidelines, bucket of popcorn in hand, please note that many philosophers have grappled with these types of issues (altruism is a common one) and came up with what appears to me to be unsatisfactory answers.



maizefolk

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #255 on: October 19, 2020, 10:34:21 AM »
I am a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist when it comes to language. So what I can point to is how the world altruism is used by speakers of the english language. Imagine the following scenario:

A woman from Cleveland who is FIREing next month travels to San Francisco for a work conference. It's her last time ever traveling for work. On the last day of the conference, she leaves the hotel to meet her Uber. Realizing the direction the uber is coming from she realizes she needs to cross the street. Across the street she sees a homeless person and hands them a $10 bill. After that gets in her Uber to the airport and flies home. On the flight back she feels happy. She thinks about how she'll never have to fly across the country for work again, and because, as research tells us, helping other people tends to make us feel good.

I would assert that if I asked 10 (or 50 or 100) random english language speakers whether the woman giving $10 to the homeless person was an altruistic act, a substantial majority of them would say that it is. Would you agree? If not, we could certainly post a poll here on the forum to resolve this point.

If you do agree that most english speakers would call that behavior altruistic, do you feel that the reason most people would describe the woman's action as altruistic is because they are unaware that helping people often makes us feel good about ourselves? Or because they use the word "altruism" to represent a different concept from the one that you are taking away from your reading the definition at dictionary.com? Or some third reason?

Is money (even thrown money) a benefit to the poor?

I disagree that hitting people with coins is a benefit to the poor (or anyone).
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 10:43:54 AM by maizefolk »

ctuser1

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #256 on: October 19, 2020, 10:55:44 AM »
Disagreement on words generally arise out of their framing, not their literal meaning!!

Consider that in your scenario, the action of giving $10 was described in very neutral and banal terms as "she executed a monetary transfer" etc. Would you get any disagreement on that? I'd bet no.

But, as soon as you add frames associated with the word "Altruism" (=something good, worthy), it will likely be contested depending on the context.

In your example, let's assume another hypothetical. After the act of giving the money to that homeless person, most people will agree it is altruistic (=good, worthy). But immediately after, we all learn that MS-13 has now started a criminal business of leveraging the homeless to aggressively beg and earn money for the gang (close to reality in some Asian countries), and that the woman giving the money was aware of it beforehand, most people will stop considering it altruistic.

So, the word flips on it's head based on additional context that conflicts with it's "frame".


GuitarStv

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #257 on: October 19, 2020, 11:11:23 AM »
I am a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist when it comes to language. So what I can point to is how the world altruism is used by speakers of the english language. Imagine the following scenario:

A woman from Cleveland who is FIREing next month travels to San Francisco for a work conference. It's her last time ever traveling for work. On the last day of the conference, she leaves the hotel to meet her Uber. Realizing the direction the uber is coming from she realizes she needs to cross the street. Across the street she sees a homeless person and hands them a $10 bill. After that gets in her Uber to the airport and flies home. On the flight back she feels happy. She thinks about how she'll never have to fly across the country for work again, and because, as research tells us, helping other people tends to make us feel good.

I would assert that if I asked 10 (or 50 or 100) random english language speakers whether the woman giving $10 to the homeless person was an altruistic act, a substantial majority of them would say that it is. Would you agree? If not, we could certainly post a poll here on the forum to resolve this point.

Thank you, I think I understand your point of view now.

Yes, a substantial majority would probably say that it was an altruistic act - regardless of the real definition of altruism.  Just like how in certain states a majority of Americans would say that socialism is bad . . . while receiving welfare each month.



Is money (even thrown money) a benefit to the poor?

I disagree that hitting people with coins is a benefit to the poor (or anyone).

If the poor person would otherwise die of starvation without the money, you would argue that it's no benefit to have a coin thrown at them?

maizefolk

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #258 on: October 19, 2020, 11:38:57 AM »
Thank you, I think I understand your point of view now.

Yes, a substantial majority would probably say that it was an altruistic act - regardless of the real definition of altruism.

Glad we could figure out where the miscommunication lay! Just a last reminder that words are placeholders for the concepts triggered inside a person's head when they hear the word, so from my perspective the "real" definition of altruism is indeed the concept people use to represent. But I certainly understand your view that the "realness" of a definition comes from what is written down in a dictionary, rather than how a word is used by people in the real world.

Is money (even thrown money) a benefit to the poor?

I disagree that hitting people with coins is a benefit to the poor (or anyone).

If the poor person would otherwise die of starvation without the money, you would argue that it's no benefit to have a coin thrown at them?
[/quote]

If a person is homeless and likely to die of exposure or starvation on the street, being hit by a car could be a life saver as it allows them to enter a hospital where they will be warm and fed. Yet I don't think most people would consider hitting a homeless person with a car as winter sets in to be helping that person.

Perhaps the biggest missing gap between your view of the world on this subject and mine is the question of intent (an extraordinarily squishy subject).

A person who hits another person with a car (or tried to hit people with coins) generally isn't intending to help that person, even if, in some circumstances, they are indeed helped. Similarly, a person who hands $10 to a stranger likely isn't intending to help themselves, even though technically the movement of their arm to physically transfer the bill to a stranger's hand constitutes exercise and (to an infinitesimal extent) means their arm will be stronger and their circulatory system less likely to fail in old age, helping themself as they help others.

Or the disconnect may lie somewhere else entirely.

GuitarStv

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #259 on: October 19, 2020, 12:25:57 PM »
If a person is homeless and likely to die of exposure or starvation on the street, being hit by a car could be a life saver as it allows them to enter a hospital where they will be warm and fed. Yet I don't think most people would consider hitting a homeless person with a car as winter sets in to be helping that person.

Perhaps the biggest missing gap between your view of the world on this subject and mine is the question of intent (an extraordinarily squishy subject).

I'd agree that intent to help is an essential part of altruism, and it's missing from the dictionary.com definition.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #260 on: October 19, 2020, 05:23:16 PM »
I am a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist when it comes to language. So what I can point to is how the world altruism is used by speakers of the english language. Imagine the following scenario:

A woman from Cleveland who is FIREing next month travels to San Francisco for a work conference. It's her last time ever traveling for work. On the last day of the conference, she leaves the hotel to meet her Uber. Realizing the direction the uber is coming from she realizes she needs to cross the street. Across the street she sees a homeless person and hands them a $10 bill. After that gets in her Uber to the airport and flies home. On the flight back she feels happy. She thinks about how she'll never have to fly across the country for work again, and because, as research tells us, helping other people tends to make us feel good.

I would assert that if I asked 10 (or 50 or 100) random english language speakers whether the woman giving $10 to the homeless person was an altruistic act, a substantial majority of them would say that it is. Would you agree? If not, we could certainly post a poll here on the forum to resolve this point.

Thank you, I think I understand your point of view now.

Yes, a substantial majority would probably say that it was an altruistic act - regardless of the real definition of altruism.  Just like how in certain states a majority of Americans would say that socialism is bad . . . while receiving welfare each month.



Is money (even thrown money) a benefit to the poor?

I disagree that hitting people with coins is a benefit to the poor (or anyone).

If the poor person would otherwise die of starvation without the money, you would argue that it's no benefit to have a coin thrown at them?

Just want to say that I am glad that I understand your point of view as well. I do have a similar but I believe not entirely the same reason for disagreeing with you on altruism as maizefolk.

Disregarding the question of ethics altogether, altruism, as you have defined it is pretty much 100% impossible to achieve. As you are describing it, for it to be fully altruistic, it has to be done to benefit someone and to in no way be based on the belief that it's right. Your dictionary.com definition has two definitions - the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others - disinterested and selfless. I think you're overemphasizing the disinterested part to impart to interpret the selfless part. Anyone that believes that anything is right and acts on what they think is right, by your definition could not be altruistic simply because they believe it's right and thus by doing what they believe is right, they're getting some benefit from it. The only thing I can think of that comes close to your version of altruism would be similar (not entirely, because they had humanistic attributes ascribed to them) to Greek gods. They did things for mortals that benefited them but were pretty dang disinterested in it. They were passionless in the doing of that.

We're both interpreting altruism based on the definition. I don't even think the dictionary definition necessarily means exactly what you are saying it does - does it really mean that it's 100% disinterested or just that it's disinterested in that it is not primarily motivated out of self-interest.

Furthermore, I would say that not just a casual poll of people in terms of the definition of altruism would support my view (although it's a good point of maizefolk), but beyond that, the concept of altruism has been one in religious and ethical circles for centuries. If the meaning of the concept was as you stated, it would not apply because the concept has been used by billions of people to mean not that people can't get the "benefit" of fulfilling their own ethical framework but just that they're looking out for others before themselves. That they're giving money to people that need it instead of spending on things for themselves. Sometimes it's more just the doing of it (more of a principle of Islam's giving of alms as I understand it - may be wrong). Sometimes it's done with a joyful heart instead of grudgingly (Christianity), but that concept of altruism - the selfless concept even called out in the definition of altruism - does not mean you have to give and not think it's a good thing. So, I think you're interpreting the definition unnecessarily stringently. I think the concept has proven itself over centuries to mean being selfless and not that you can't get the benefit of knowing what you're doing is right, and I think that for your interpretation of altruism to be true, it would be almost a nonsense word with no practical application.

LennStar

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #261 on: October 20, 2020, 04:04:06 AM »
Is money (even thrown money) a benefit to the poor?

I disagree that hitting people with coins is a benefit to the poor (or anyone).

If the poor person would otherwise die of starvation without the money, you would argue that it's no benefit to have a coin thrown at them?

You guys are treating a mmultiple-vector action as a single vector action. I don't remember the name of that fallacy, but if you look it up you can tell me.

GuitarStv

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #262 on: October 20, 2020, 07:13:43 AM »
I think that for your interpretation of altruism to be true, it would be almost a nonsense word with no practical application.

Agreed.  This is why most discussion of altruism should be discounted as being a blatant lie/falsehood told by someone who wants to promote or advertise something.  I much prefer other terminology when discussing acts of charity for this reason.

But I also get that other people use and interpret the term differently.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #263 on: October 20, 2020, 04:49:24 PM »
I think that for your interpretation of altruism to be true, it would be almost a nonsense word with no practical application.

Agreed.  This is why most discussion of altruism should be discounted as being a blatant lie/falsehood told by someone who wants to promote or advertise something.  I much prefer other terminology when discussing acts of charity for this reason.

But I also get that other people use and interpret the term differently.

Fair enough. What term would you use where someone gives totally because they want to (not for show and in "private" where no one knows but them) in a way that's helpful and legitimately self-sacrificial (not Bill Gates giving $100) and in line with their ethics and do derive joy from it because they have lived up to the ethics they believe is right?

GuitarStv

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #264 on: October 20, 2020, 05:19:01 PM »
I think that for your interpretation of altruism to be true, it would be almost a nonsense word with no practical application.

Agreed.  This is why most discussion of altruism should be discounted as being a blatant lie/falsehood told by someone who wants to promote or advertise something.  I much prefer other terminology when discussing acts of charity for this reason.

But I also get that other people use and interpret the term differently.

Fair enough. What term would you use where someone gives totally because they want to (not for show and in "private" where no one knows but them) in a way that's helpful and legitimately self-sacrificial (not Bill Gates giving $100) and in line with their ethics and do derive joy from it because they have lived up to the ethics they believe is right?

Antidickishness.


:P

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #265 on: October 21, 2020, 04:57:23 AM »
I think that for your interpretation of altruism to be true, it would be almost a nonsense word with no practical application.

Agreed.  This is why most discussion of altruism should be discounted as being a blatant lie/falsehood told by someone who wants to promote or advertise something.  I much prefer other terminology when discussing acts of charity for this reason.

But I also get that other people use and interpret the term differently.

Fair enough. What term would you use where someone gives totally because they want to (not for show and in "private" where no one knows but them) in a way that's helpful and legitimately self-sacrificial (not Bill Gates giving $100) and in line with their ethics and do derive joy from it because they have lived up to the ethics they believe is right?

Antidickishness.


:P

Lol, fine. I'll work to be antidickish in life

RetiredAt63

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #266 on: October 21, 2020, 05:57:17 AM »
I think that for your interpretation of altruism to be true, it would be almost a nonsense word with no practical application.

Agreed.  This is why most discussion of altruism should be discounted as being a blatant lie/falsehood told by someone who wants to promote or advertise something.  I much prefer other terminology when discussing acts of charity for this reason.

But I also get that other people use and interpret the term differently.

Fair enough. What term would you use where someone gives totally because they want to (not for show and in "private" where no one knows but them) in a way that's helpful and legitimately self-sacrificial (not Bill Gates giving $100) and in line with their ethics and do derive joy from it because they have lived up to the ethics they believe is right?

Antidickishness.


:P

Lol, fine. I'll work to be antidickish in life

I work at being a zero as per Chris Hadfield in An Astronauts Guide to Life on Earth.  Great book, and if you get the audio version it is Chris himself reading it.

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Montecarlo

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sherr

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #269 on: October 21, 2020, 12:37:25 PM »
Wichita man arrested for threatening to kidnap, kill mayor over mask mandate

Yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Secret Service charges man with threat to kidnap and kill Biden and Harris

Oh look yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Literally dripping with confirmation bias

Fine, link us to all the Democrats that have been arrested for domestic terrorism then.

GuitarStv

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sherr

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #271 on: October 21, 2020, 01:01:24 PM »
Trump's Department of Homeland Security, October 2020:
Quote
Among [Domestic Violent Extremists], racially and ethnically motivated violent extremists—specifically white supremacist extremists (WSEs)—will remain the most persistent and lethal threat in the Homeland.
  • WSEs have demonstrated longstanding intent to target racial and religious minorities, members of the LGBTQ+ community, politicians, and those they believe promote multi-culturalism and globalization at the expense of the WSE identity. Since 2018, they have conducted more lethal attacks in the United States than any other DVE movement.

There, that source hopefully isn't just "confirmation bias".

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #272 on: October 21, 2020, 01:02:26 PM »
Wichita man arrested for threatening to kidnap, kill mayor over mask mandate

Yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Secret Service charges man with threat to kidnap and kill Biden and Harris

Oh look yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Literally dripping with confirmation bias

Fine, link us to all the Democrats that have been arrested for domestic terrorism then.

I don't want to get exposed for my whataboutism

Kris

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #273 on: October 21, 2020, 01:16:16 PM »
Wichita man arrested for threatening to kidnap, kill mayor over mask mandate

Yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Secret Service charges man with threat to kidnap and kill Biden and Harris

Oh look yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Literally dripping with confirmation bias

Fine, link us to all the Democrats that have been arrested for domestic terrorism then.

I don't want to get exposed for my whataboutism

Dude, you already whatabout-ed. Time to provide the proof.

sherr

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #274 on: October 21, 2020, 01:30:41 PM »
Wichita man arrested for threatening to kidnap, kill mayor over mask mandate

Yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Secret Service charges man with threat to kidnap and kill Biden and Harris

Oh look yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

I feel like some people won't bother reading the articles, so I'll quote some of this recent one here:
Quote
A criminal complaint filed by the agency Wednesday said a man identified as James Dale Reed on Oct. 4 approached a house in his hometown of Frederick that had Biden-Harris lawn signs posted and left a handwritten note detailing graphic threats against the candidates and their supporters.

Reed allegedly threatens in the letter to “severely beat” Biden to “the point of death” and shoot Harris in the head with a Glock 17 pistol. The letter also includes a graphic threat of sexual assault against Harris.

The letter says Biden-Harris supporters would also be “targeted.”

“We have a list of homes and addresses by your election signs,” the letter reads, without clarifying who constitutes “we.” “We are the ones with these scary guns, we are the ones your children have nightmares about.”

This is not just some neck-beard popping off on social media, although that can get you arrested too sure. These are actual threats against the lives and families of Biden supporters. Walking up to your front door and leaving a hand-written death threat on it because you had a Biden sign in your front yard. Terrorism.

Edit:
Oh look here's the actual letter if anyone wants to read it. The Hill has a misleading headline, it's primarily a threat to Biden supporters, stating at the very beginning: "WARNING!!! This is a warning to anyone reading this letter. If you are a Biden/Harris supporter you will be targeted. We have a list of homes and addresses by your election signs."

But then people look mean at you if you wear a MAGA hat, so both sides I guess.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 01:53:32 PM by sherr »

Chris22

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #275 on: October 21, 2020, 02:10:12 PM »
https://www.wmur.com/article/police-investigate-threatening-letters-sent-to-trump-supporters/34418916#

Quote
MILFORD, N.H. —
Milford police are trying to track down whoever is behind a series of letters that were sent to supporters of President Donald Trump threatening to burn down their homes.

>> Download the free WMUR app

Kelly, a Milford resident who asked to be identified only by her first name, said she received one of the letters.

"Dear neighbor," the letter read. "You have been identified by our group as being a Trump supporter. Your address has been added to our database as a target when we attack should Trump not concede the election."

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LennStar

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #278 on: October 22, 2020, 04:07:50 AM »
https://www.wmur.com/article/police-investigate-threatening-letters-sent-to-trump-supporters/34418916#

Quote
MILFORD, N.H. —
Milford police are trying to track down whoever is behind a series of letters that were sent to supporters of President Donald Trump threatening to burn down their homes.

>> Download the free WMUR app

Kelly, a Milford resident who asked to be identified only by her first name, said she received one of the letters.

"Dear neighbor," the letter read. "You have been identified by our group as being a Trump supporter. Your address has been added to our database as a target when we attack should Trump not concede the election."
I want to point out that this threat is under the condition that (at least that is my interpretetion of concede) Trump basically makes a coup de etat and does not step down when he loses election.

While the threat itself is bad enough, that is a big qualitative difference to "you support a candidate, I attack you".

Montecarlo

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #279 on: October 22, 2020, 06:26:43 AM »
@LennStar

To clarify, it’s NOT okay to threaten someone who supports a candidate who grabs women by the pussy, puts children in cages, incites racial violence.

But it IS okay to threaten someone who supports a candidate who grabs women by the pussy, puts children in cages, incites racial violence, if after the fact that candidate refuses to respect election results.

maizefolk

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #280 on: October 22, 2020, 07:27:23 AM »
LennStar I think that may be a too generous reading of the threat. If Trump were to win the election, he would also "not concede the election." And even otherwise, the only thing an individual voter fearing for their life could do to reduce the risk that Trump loses and fails to concede is to try to make sure Trump loses in enough of a landslide that there is no ambiguity. So this still looks like a threat of violence with the objective of influencing how the person who was threatened votes. And that's woefully bad.

Now generally election related threats of violence tend to come from individuals who may be struggling with low grade mental illness and/or big challenges in their personal lives, not organized groups. A good example of the type who seem to both make threats and sometimes carry out those threats is that guy who tried to shoot a bunch of senators at a baseball game in DC back in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting#Perpetrator But another equally good example is the guy who shot the congressperson in Arizona close to a decade ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucson_shooting#Perpetrator (I'm including two so it doesn't look like I'm trying to focus on attacks on republicans or focus on attacks on democrats). When things are going badly in your life it is easier and easier to look outside yourself and blame everything on those other bad people.

That doesn't make the threats any less scary (or less dangerous) for those individuals targeted. It just means particular threats tend to be localized and not big enough to effect the overall outcome of the elections.

sherr

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #281 on: October 22, 2020, 07:49:05 AM »
LennStar I think that may be a too generous reading of the threat. If Trump were to win the election, he would also "not concede the election." And even otherwise, the only thing an individual voter fearing for their life could do to reduce the risk that Trump loses and fails to concede is to try to make sure Trump loses in enough of a landslide that there is no ambiguity. So this still looks like a threat of violence with the objective of influencing how the person who was threatened votes. And that's woefully bad.

Now generally election related threats of violence tend to come from individuals who may be struggling with low grade mental illness and/or big challenges in their personal lives, not organized groups. A good example of the type who seem to both make threats and sometimes carry out those threats is that guy who tried to shoot a bunch of senators at a baseball game in DC back in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting#Perpetrator But another equally good example is the guy who shot the congressperson in Arizona close to a decade ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucson_shooting#Perpetrator (I'm including two so it doesn't look like I'm trying to focus on attacks on republicans or focus on attacks on democrats). When things are going badly in your life it is easier and easier to look outside yourself and blame everything on those other bad people.

That doesn't make the threats any less scary (or less dangerous) for those individuals targeted. It just means particular threats tend to be localized and not big enough to effect the overall outcome of the elections.

The MAGA Bomber would be a better, more recent example than the guy who shot Giffords (which, by the way, part of that hand-written death thread on the door was that he would "finish the job" on Giffords).

Do these people clearly have mental problems? Yes. Does that mean that everyone else is absolved of all responsibility? No.

There's a whole infrastructure on the right of intentionally manufacturing fear and hate propaganda to radicalize people, up to and including the president telling his supporters that the only way he will lose the election is if it's stolen via voter fraud, and telling "the second amendment people" to "do something" about Hillary if she wins, and pastors telling people to rise up and kill "the Marxist BLM protestors who are trying to destroy the country", etc. They push extremist fear and hate rhetoric to intentionally radicalize their people and divide the country, and then some of the less-stable people are pushed over the edge, and this is the result.

Now you could argue that the "Lamestream Media" is doing the same thing by questioning whether Trump will step down if he loses. However I submit that that's not at all the same thing, given that Trump repeatedly "jokes" about not stepping down, or staying for a 3rd term, or being dictator for life, etc, and refuses to actually say that he will peacefully leave office if he loses. That's just accurately reporting what the president says at that point, not intentionally trying to manufacture divisive hate rhetoric.

I will also point out, given the new news from US Intelligence that Iran was behind the "you'd better vote for Trump or else" emails that people in Florida got, that we should be suspicious of any case where the cops don't yet know who the perpetrator is. These "If Trump refuses to concede if he loses you'd better have your home insurance current" letters that Trumpers are getting are awful, yes and absolutely, I will agree 100%. But it's also possible that they are actually a false-flag, or the result of some foreign government interfering. In the two examples I linked they already have the guy responsible in custody, so that's not quite the same thing. In this election I think it's probably fair to assume nothing until we have official word from relevant authorities or have first-hand information.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:55:07 AM by sherr »

OtherJen

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Kris

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenariosut
« Reply #283 on: October 22, 2020, 08:34:46 AM »
LennStar I think that may be a too generous reading of the threat. If Trump were to win the election, he would also "not concede the election." And even otherwise, the only thing an individual voter fearing for their life could do to reduce the risk that Trump loses and fails to concede is to try to make sure Trump loses in enough of a landslide that there is no ambiguity. So this still looks like a threat of violence with the objective of influencing how the person who was threatened votes. And that's woefully bad.

Now generally election related threats of violence tend to come from individuals who may be struggling with low grade mental illness and/or big challenges in their personal lives, not organized groups. A good example of the type who seem to both make threats and sometimes carry out those threats is that guy who tried to shoot a bunch of senators at a baseball game in DC back in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting#Perpetrator But another equally good example is the guy who shot the congressperson in Arizona close to a decade ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucson_shooting#Perpetrator (I'm including two so it doesn't look like I'm trying to focus on attacks on republicans or focus on attacks on democrats). When things are going badly in your life it is easier and easier to look outside yourself and blame everything on those other bad people.

That doesn't make the threats any less scary (or less dangerous) for those individuals targeted. It just means particular threats tend to be localized and not big enough to effect the overall outcome of the elections.

The MAGA Bomber would be a better, more recent example than the guy who shot Giffords (which, by the way, part of that hand-written death thread on the door was that he would "finish the job" on Giffords).

Do these people clearly have mental problems? Yes. Does that mean that everyone else is absolved of all responsibility? No.

There's a whole infrastructure on the right of intentionally manufacturing fear and hate propaganda to radicalize people, up to and including the president telling his supporters that the only way he will lose the election is if it's stolen via voter fraud, and telling "the second amendment people" to "do something" about Hillary if she wins, and pastors telling people to rise up and kill "the Marxist BLM protestors who are trying to destroy the country", etc. They push extremist fear and hate rhetoric to intentionally radicalize their people and divide the country, and then some of the less-stable people are pushed over the edge, and this is the result.

Now you could argue that the "Lamestream Media" is doing the same thing by questioning whether Trump will step down if he loses. However I submit that that's not at all the same thing, given that Trump repeatedly "jokes" about not stepping down, or staying for a 3rd term, or being dictator for life, etc, and refuses to actually say that he will peacefully leave office if he loses. That's just accurately reporting what the president says at that point, not intentionally trying to manufacture divisive hate rhetoric.

I will also point out, given the new news from US Intelligence that Iran was behind the "you'd better vote for Trump or else" emails that people in Florida got, that we should be suspicious of any case where the cops don't yet know who the perpetrator is. These "If Trump refuses to concede if he loses you'd better have your home insurance current" letters that Trumpers are getting are awful, yes and absolutely, I will agree 100%. But it's also possible that they are actually a false-flag, or the result of some foreign government interfering. In the two examples I linked they already have the guy responsible in custody, so that's not quite the same thing. In this election I think it's probably fair to assume nothing until we have official word from relevant authorities or have first-hand information.

Agreed. Very well put.

maizefolk

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #284 on: October 22, 2020, 08:58:54 AM »
The MAGA Bomber would be a better, more recent example than the guy who shot Giffords (which, by the way, part of that hand-written death thread on the door was that he would "finish the job" on Giffords).

Used the example of the guy who perpetrated the Giffords shooting because the consequences were more severe with people killed and others injured. Since the congressional baseball shooting included injuries I didn't want to use a less severe example of violence targeting democrats. Thankfully the guy mailing all those bombs was bad enough at building bombs that no one was actually hurt or injured by them.

But I agree the bomber showed many of the same properties (signatures that could indicate mental illness, life generally going poorly and looking for someone to blame). I would agree if you'd prefer to substitute one example for the other.

simonsez

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #285 on: October 22, 2020, 02:39:17 PM »
It has been beaten into the ground enough, but I enjoyed the altruism discussion.

I find it similar to the definition of selfless or describing a selfless act.  I would contend that all selfless acts are in some way selfish as well due to that endorphin boost you receive after doing a good thing for someone else.  Once you KNOW that being "selfless" gets you that positive feedback (i.e. pleasure) and you seek it out, isn't that selfish?

Maybe a misanthrope who does good deeds but feels absolutely nothing positive for doing them would qualify, but then how misanthropic are they really?

Kris

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #286 on: October 22, 2020, 02:53:20 PM »
It has been beaten into the ground enough, but I enjoyed the altruism discussion.

I find it similar to the definition of selfless or describing a selfless act.  I would contend that all selfless acts are in some way selfish as well due to that endorphin boost you receive after doing a good thing for someone else.  Once you KNOW that being "selfless" gets you that positive feedback (i.e. pleasure) and you seek it out, isn't that selfish?

Maybe a misanthrope who does good deeds but feels absolutely nothing positive for doing them would qualify, but then how misanthropic are they really?

Maybe the only people who can truly commit a selfless or altruistic act are psychopaths? :)

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #287 on: October 22, 2020, 03:33:42 PM »
I enjoyed the altruism discussion.



+1.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #288 on: October 22, 2020, 04:06:34 PM »





Did humans have a good/evil compass before they had a concept of a creator and all the baggage that comes with it?


I think the former.



Abe

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #290 on: October 22, 2020, 09:49:16 PM »
I think the likelihood that one of these dorks can get within a mile of Biden is close to 0%. I'm more worried about them being pissed off that their brilliant plan has holes like swiss cheese, and decide to shoot up a Walmart. 

bacchi

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #291 on: October 22, 2020, 09:57:54 PM »
I think the likelihood that one of these dorks can get within a mile of Biden is close to 0%. I'm more worried about them being pissed off that their brilliant plan has holes like swiss cheese, and decide to shoot up a Walmart.

Or a synagogue....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting

LennStar

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #292 on: October 23, 2020, 04:36:02 AM »
Just one year ago one of those right wing "lone operator" tried a massacre in the synagoge in a near city. He didn't get through the reinforced door and "only" shot two people (ironically one of them a neonazi-hooligan eating at a Döner (so likely muslim owner)) when fleeing.

@LennStar

To clarify, it’s NOT okay to threaten someone who supports a candidate who grabs women by the pussy, puts children in cages, incites racial violence.

But it IS okay to threaten someone who supports a candidate who grabs women by the pussy, puts children in cages, incites racial violence, if after the fact that candidate refuses to respect election results.
No, that is not what I meant.
I was pointing out the difference in motivation for the threat. (And btw. that it exists makes me actually doubt it is real, because that seldom happens)

Let's paraphrase the threats:
One is saying: I make a civil war against you if you support X.
The other is saying: If X('s side) starts a civil war, you will be counted and fought as the opponent.

At least "officially" that is a huge difference, albeit in reality it's probably more like the difference between the Ministry of War and the Ministry of Defense.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #293 on: October 23, 2020, 04:52:11 AM »
Wichita man arrested for threatening to kidnap, kill mayor over mask mandate

Yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

Secret Service charges man with threat to kidnap and kill Biden and Harris

Oh look yet more right-wing domestic terrorism.

North Carolina man arrested with van full of guns and explosives, had plans to assassinate Joe Biden

Sigh.

If you're remotely objective, I think it's impossible to miss that tensions and aggression has ramped up, and it has ramped up on both sides. However, I don't see how people don't see that the common thread for this ramp up is Trump....

Just Joe

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #294 on: October 23, 2020, 08:30:36 AM »
Exactly. One tiny thing is masks. Trump has made masks to be a political thing. I live in a red county in a red state. Wearing a mask here can lead to getting the side eye from the non-maskers at times depending on where a person is shopping. There is not a  mask mandate here. Not the political will here to force that. So... Our numbers keep climbing.

Trump COULD have recommended masks. One tiny thing. The encouragement would have changed the temperature of the situation. Instead he made it an us vs them thing. My Trump supporting family suggests we wear masks b/c we are scared. We come back and remind them that its the smarter thing to do in the middle of a pandemic known to kill many people.

Who has time to get sick and deal with the potentially long recovery? We don't and we have insurance plus sick leave. Ironic that those who we know that won't wear a mask risk losing their jobs if they took off several weeks to recover. Also have less financial reserves to rely on too. They could be out of a job and facing a financial crisis.

frugalnacho

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #295 on: October 23, 2020, 12:21:50 PM »
Haha look at scaredy pants Joe wearing a mask, and a seat belt, and he probably looks both ways before he crosses an intersection just like a NERD!

RetiredAt63

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #296 on: October 23, 2020, 05:06:06 PM »
Haha look at scaredy pants Joe wearing a mask, and a seat belt, and he probably looks both ways before he crosses an intersection just like a NERD!

If he ever decides to visit Canada he will be taken for a local.   ;-)

partgypsy

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #297 on: October 24, 2020, 07:42:26 AM »
This is an interesting video talking about reciprocity and empathy in animals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnnSjdpoBVw

partgypsy

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #298 on: October 24, 2020, 11:42:00 AM »
Haha look at scaredy pants Joe wearing a mask, and a seat belt, and he probably looks both ways before he crosses an intersection just like a NERD!

If he ever decides to visit Canada he will be taken for a local.   ;-)
Hopefully this election will be Revenge of the Nerds

sherr

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Re: Election fallout - four Civil War scenarios
« Reply #299 on: October 26, 2020, 07:06:47 AM »
If you're remotely objective, I think it's impossible to miss that tensions and aggression has ramped up, and it has ramped up on both sides. However, I don't see how people don't see that the common thread for this ramp up is Trump....

I agree that Trump has made things worse. I reject that it's entirely Trump's fault.

Example: Rick Joyner, the pastor/prophet mentioned in the article OP posted, made a video right after Obama's 2nd win claiming that the US was beyond saving electorally and the only hope for the continued existence of the country was a military coup. This extremist rhetoric / hate propaganda / lusting after a 2nd civil war has been a recurring theme on the right since long before Trump.