The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Kwill on September 22, 2018, 05:31:48 AM
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I'm starting this to spin off one topic from a journal discussion. Feel free to join in with your goals, progress, tips, and tricks related to studying an East Asian language.
I started studying Japanese in 1991 and passed level 1 of the JLPT in 2009. I use Japanese at work, but I'm also using Crunchyroll for listening practice.
I started studying Korean on my own in 2016, and I'm still very much a beginner. I'm feeling unreasonably frustrated with it because my Korean is so far behind my Japanese, and I'd love to hear tips for speeding up the process. So far I've finished 'First Step Korean' and 'Learn to Speak Korean 1' on Coursera, in addition to trying and giving up on various other books and websites. I'm using flashcards on Quizlet to review vocabulary, and I occasionally watch Korean dramas on Dramafever. I read a little bit of Korean at work but could do a lot more if I could catch up.
What languages are you studying? What are your best tools? What do you find the most difficult?
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I'd like this information also - I'd like to learn Korean, but without spending a lot to do so.
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Attend weekly meet ups with Korean native speakers and do a language exchange (one hour Korean lesson for one hour English lesson). Years back, when DH wanted to learn Chinese, that was what he would do. Found people wanting to chat with a native English speaker through meetup.com, then hung out with them for several hours. Two hours every week turned into four hours, to the point that we were traveling and taking weekend trips with these new friends and using Chinese most of the time.
He also started reading Chinese (for you it would be Korean) books and newspapers, and writing down the translations of whatever words he didn’t know.
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Hi Not There Yet!
Here are the links for the things I've used and liked for Korean so far. All are potentially free with subscription options. I pay for Dramafever but use the others for free.
- Quizlet: https://quizlet.com/subject/Korean/
- Dramafever: https://www.dramafever.com/
- First Step Korean (https://www.coursera.org/learn/learn-korean)
- Learn to Speak Korean 1 (https://www.coursera.org/learn/learn-speak-korean1)
For Japanese, the ones I still use are Crunchyroll (http://www.crunchyroll.com/) and sometimes Kanji Koohii (https://kanji.koohii.com/).
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Attend weekly meet ups with Korean native speakers and do a language exchange (one hour Korean lesson for one hour English lesson). Years back, when DH wanted to learn Chinese, that was what he would do. Found people wanting to chat with a native English speaker through meetup.com, then hung out with them for several hours. Two hours every week turned into four hours, to the point that we were traveling and taking weekend trips with these new friends and using Chinese most of the time.
He also started reading Chinese (for you it would be Korean) books and newspapers, and writing down the translations of whatever words he didn’t know.
Hi Freedomin5! That sounds great. Part of my frustration is related to not feeling like I have much connection to the country to be putting so much effort in--this is coming from work rather than an independent personal interest. Maybe it would help to be practising with real people.
I've met a couple times with a native speaker, but I didn't know enough Korean to really be doing language exchange. It seems like there's an initial hurdle to get past before it's possible to spend time talking. Or maybe it would have worked better if we had gone into the meeting with an agreed structure for language exchange, rather than just meeting for coffee.
When you were spending all that time with the Chinese speakers, did you start learning the language as well?
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The first several months, DH brought his textbook with him, or brought the book he was currently reading and asked about words and phrases that he didn’t understand. For example, there were often phrases or idiots for which the translation didn’t make sense. So yes, it was very structured.
I already spoke conversational Chinese, so I only joined them for trips and the first meetup (so the other party would know that DH isn’t some creepy white stalker with an Asian fetish).
The way I’ve improved my Chinese over the years is to use it more at work (started accepting Chinese clients), and I took a position teaching a university course in Chinese. I’ve found that you really have to use the language with native speakers in order to build and maintain it, so if you have no job opportunities to use Korean, then find social opportunities to do so.
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Thanks Kwill! I've also heard it's useful to watch Korean Language videos with English subtitles. I'm thinking of ordering this - https://www.amazon.com/dp/581990608X/?coliid=IWJJ2MWJR10JM&colid=2I9TBW5PR7FJ0&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Twelve discs - that should do it!
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Thanks Kwill! I've also heard it's useful to watch Korean Language videos with English subtitles. I'm thinking of ordering this - https://www.amazon.com/dp/581990608X/?coliid=IWJJ2MWJR10JM&colid=2I9TBW5PR7FJ0&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Twelve discs - that should do it!
Having spent many years teaching Chinese people how to speak English as a second language, experience tells me this is not true because you end up reading the subtitles and not paying attention to the oral language. Also, it’s hard to figure out which Korean word you just heard matches which English word on the screen.
A better method is to watch Korean videos with Korean subtitles (you will need to learn the Korean basics first). Then you’re getting both auditory and visual input.
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Thanks Kwill! I've also heard it's useful to watch Korean Language videos with English subtitles. I'm thinking of ordering this - https://www.amazon.com/dp/581990608X/?coliid=IWJJ2MWJR10JM&colid=2I9TBW5PR7FJ0&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Twelve discs - that should do it!
Having spent many years teaching Chinese people how to speak English as a second language, experience tells me this is not true because you end up reading the subtitles and not paying attention to the oral language. Also, it’s hard to figure out which Korean word you just heard matches which English word on the screen.
A better method is to watch Korean videos with Korean subtitles (you will need to learn the Korean basics first). Then you’re getting both auditory and visual input.
I agree that same-language subtitles are most effective. I started learning Japanese 17 years ago and am now a J-E translator (so, like, understanding Japanese is half my job), and I still take something away almost every time I watch Japanese TV with Japanese subs.
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Thanks Kwill! I've also heard it's useful to watch Korean Language videos with English subtitles. I'm thinking of ordering this - https://www.amazon.com/dp/581990608X/?coliid=IWJJ2MWJR10JM&colid=2I9TBW5PR7FJ0&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Twelve discs - that should do it!
Having spent many years teaching Chinese people how to speak English as a second language, experience tells me this is not true because you end up reading the subtitles and not paying attention to the oral language. Also, it’s hard to figure out which Korean word you just heard matches which English word on the screen.
A better method is to watch Korean videos with Korean subtitles (you will need to learn the Korean basics first). Then you’re getting both auditory and visual input.
This seems a good point. Dramafever is a streaming site for Korean dramas and maybe some Taiwanese ones as well, but I think it only offers foreign language subtitles (English, Spanish, Portuguese and Chinese) on and off, not same-language captions. I wonder if it would help if I tried re-watching a series I liked, this time without any captions.
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I agree that same-language subtitles are most effective. I started learning Japanese 17 years ago and am now a J-E translator (so, like, understanding Japanese is half my job), and I still take something away almost every time I watch Japanese TV with Japanese subs.
That's neat. Until you and Freedomin5 mentioned it, I wouldn't have thought of watching TV with same-language subs as a method to seek out.
Japanese is a big part of my job, but my options for legal viewing of Japanese TV are more limited because I live in the UK. I've used Crunchyroll for Japanese anime for years, watching with the subtitles turned off, but they recently changed their viewer to one that doesn't allow you to turn off subtitles. For now I'm watching with Spanish or German subtitles, but I think it might be time to find a different site.
Do you or does anyone here know of good, legal ways to view Japanese or Korean TV from abroad with same-language subtitles?
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The first several months, DH brought his textbook with him, or brought the book he was currently reading and asked about words and phrases that he didn’t understand. For example, there were often phrases or idiots for which the translation didn’t make sense. So yes, it was very structured.
I already spoke conversational Chinese, so I only joined them for trips and the first meetup (so the other party would know that DH isn’t some creepy white stalker with an Asian fetish).
The way I’ve improved my Chinese over the years is to use it more at work (started accepting Chinese clients), and I took a position teaching a university course in Chinese. I’ve found that you really have to use the language with native speakers in order to build and maintain it, so if you have no job opportunities to use Korean, then find social opportunities to do so.
Sorry, I had forgotten you've been in China a long time. That's great that you've gotten to such a professional stage with the language.
Structuring the meetings would help, I think.
Googling around my current town, there seem to be a lot of potential options for meeting Korean people, but it's hard to know quite where to start. It's also depressing to think of setting aside more time to do something for work on weekends when I'm already doing a lot on evenings and weekends, but I think I could put in for comp time for it if it is sufficiently structured that I feel comfortable calling it work. From that point of view, setting up a formal language exchange might be best.
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A better method is to watch Korean videos with Korean subtitles (you will need to learn the Korean basics first). Then you’re getting both auditory and visual input.
+1 On every visit to China I watch Chinese TV, it's really helpful to see the characters as people speak. Reading English is translation vs immersion.
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Do you or does anyone here know of good, legal ways to view Japanese or Korean TV from abroad with same-language subtitles?
Nothing free, but Netflix has plenty of Japanese content, and a lot (if not most) of it is subbed. VPN + Netflix = East Asian Netflix here we come. Can't speak to the quality of the Korean content, but the original Netflix Japanese dramas are better than anything I've seen on TV here.
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Joining from the previous journal discussion. I started learning Japanese a little over 3 years ago, though I wasn't all that serious about it for a while and took about a year's worth of break in the middle. I've been pretty serious for about a year and a half now. I passed the JLPT N5 last December (97th percentile) and will be taking the N4 this December.
Thus far I've used Remembering the Kanji, Kanji Koohii (for RTK SRS), Human Japanese, Human Japanese Intermediate, Genki I, and I'm almost done with Genki II. I use Anki for SRS on everything but writing kanji. I use Forvo to get native pronunciation of any words I add that aren't spoken in the textbooks.
I've found the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books really useful for looking up details on grammar points. I've started reading NHK News Web Easy, and rather like that.
My current goal is to pass N3 - conversational level, then assess where I want to go from there. I'd like to enjoy native material without looking up every other word. I'd like to spend six months to a year abroad. I'm not sure about making N1 a goal, though I may well end up able to pass it following the others.
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Thus far I've used Remembering the Kanji, Kanji Koohii (for RTK SRS), Human Japanese, Human Japanese Intermediate, Genki I, and I'm almost done with Genki II. I use Anki for SRS on everything but writing kanji. I use Forvo to get native pronunciation of any words I add that aren't spoken in the textbooks.
I've found the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books really useful for looking up details on grammar points. I've started reading NHK News Web Easy, and rather like that.
thanks so much for recommending Anki, Forvo and the NHK News Web Easy. they're really helpful.
i've passed N5 a long time ago (JLPT4) and failed JLPT3 a couple of times mainly due to the listening comprehension section.
any recommendations on effective ways to improve understanding of spoken japanese for N4/N3? japanese dramas seem to be too much of a stretch.
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Thus far I've used Remembering the Kanji, Kanji Koohii (for RTK SRS), Human Japanese, Human Japanese Intermediate, Genki I, and I'm almost done with Genki II. I use Anki for SRS on everything but writing kanji. I use Forvo to get native pronunciation of any words I add that aren't spoken in the textbooks.
I've found the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books really useful for looking up details on grammar points. I've started reading NHK News Web Easy, and rather like that.
thanks so much for recommending Anki, Forvo and the NHK News Web Easy. they're really helpful.
i've passed N5 a long time ago (JLPT4) and failed JLPT3 a couple of times mainly due to the listening comprehension section.
any recommendations on effective ways to improve understanding of spoken japanese for N4/N3? japanese dramas seem to be too much of a stretch.
~99% of my Anki flashcards have a spoken component to them. So each card has three ways that come up:
- English shown, answer is in written and spoken Japanese.
- Written Japanese shown, answer is in English and spoken Japanese.
- Spoken Japanese, answer is in English and written Japanese.
#3 forces listening comprehension. If I have to replay the audio, I mark the card hard instead of good or easy, even if I get it right. But it's useful to have the audio played every time. If it's a flashcard, it's level appropriate. Thus every time I answer a flashcard, I'm hearing audio that I am capable of comprehending.
I started making cards to support kanji readings that I don't have other vocabulary for, like 的 (まと - target) which is an N1 word from an N3 kanji that Genki II introduces. Genki provides it as the kun-yomi example for the kanji, but never speaks it and never uses it in a sentence. I found words like this (no audio, no context) really difficult until I found Forvo and got the spoken component involved. It's just really helpful to have it spoken every single time you answer a card. As a bonus, because I can remember this word now, I can get the kanji readings correct more easily.
I haven't moved to much native media yet, because I'm still at a level where I have to look up way too much stuff and there just isn't really audio at my level. The exception I've found is NHK News Web Easy, which has an option to listen to a commentator read the story in very well spoken standard Tokyo dialect. I've learned it's possible to extract that audio, so I'm likely to start making some flashcards from that source for words or grammar I pick up in those stories. Some of the stories are still well beyond me, with more new words than I want to tackle, but a lot are at that sweet spot of mostly comprehensible.
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Thus far I've used Remembering the Kanji, Kanji Koohii (for RTK SRS), Human Japanese, Human Japanese Intermediate, Genki I, and I'm almost done with Genki II. I use Anki for SRS on everything but writing kanji. I use Forvo to get native pronunciation of any words I add that aren't spoken in the textbooks.
I've found the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books really useful for looking up details on grammar points. I've started reading NHK News Web Easy, and rather like that.
thanks so much for recommending Anki, Forvo and the NHK News Web Easy. they're really helpful.
i've passed N5 a long time ago (JLPT4) and failed JLPT3 a couple of times mainly due to the listening comprehension section.
any recommendations on effective ways to improve understanding of spoken japanese for N4/N3? japanese dramas seem to be too much of a stretch.
Omachi and Reader, even though people are saying shows with English subtitles aren't helpful for listening comprehension in the long run, maybe at your stage they might help to get the sounds in your head and consolidate what you're getting through flashcards. You wouldn't want that to be your only thing, but flashcards and news shows can be dry by themselves. I've already mentioned Crunchyroll.com, which I like for anime. On there, 'Space Brothers (https://www.crunchyroll.com/space-brothers)', 'Sakura Quest (https://www.crunchyroll.com/sakura-quest)', and 'Sword Art Online (https://www.crunchyroll.com/sword-art-online)' were three different kinds of series that I found engaging. 'Naruto (https://www.crunchyroll.com/naruto)' is a classic, which I'm finally getting around to watching now that I'm a little more used to anime.
It wouldn't necessarily be good for career-building, but teaching English abroad can be great for really getting the listening comprehension. It's just so different living somewhere vs. studying a language from a distance, especially if you make the effort to get to know people and do things locally.
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PTF. I haven't worked on my Japanese in a while (and it's not something I'm going to pick up again in the next month or so) but there's already a ton of great resources in here and I do want to work on it again at some point!
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Thus far I've used Remembering the Kanji, Kanji Koohii (for RTK SRS), Human Japanese, Human Japanese Intermediate, Genki I, and I'm almost done with Genki II. I use Anki for SRS on everything but writing kanji. I use Forvo to get native pronunciation of any words I add that aren't spoken in the textbooks.
I've found the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books really useful for looking up details on grammar points. I've started reading NHK News Web Easy, and rather like that.
thanks so much for recommending Anki, Forvo and the NHK News Web Easy. they're really helpful.
i've passed N5 a long time ago (JLPT4) and failed JLPT3 a couple of times mainly due to the listening comprehension section.
any recommendations on effective ways to improve understanding of spoken japanese for N4/N3? japanese dramas seem to be too much of a stretch.
Omachi and Reader, even though people are saying shows with English subtitles aren't helpful for listening comprehension in the long run, maybe at your stage they might help to get the sounds in your head and consolidate what you're getting through flashcards. You wouldn't want that to be your only thing, but flashcards and news shows can be dry by themselves. I've already mentioned Crunchyroll.com, which I like for anime. On there, 'Space Brothers (https://www.crunchyroll.com/space-brothers)', 'Sakura Quest (https://www.crunchyroll.com/sakura-quest)', and 'Sword Art Online (https://www.crunchyroll.com/sword-art-online)' were three different kinds of series that I found engaging. 'Naruto (https://www.crunchyroll.com/naruto)' is a classic, which I'm finally getting around to watching now that I'm a little more used to anime.
It wouldn't necessarily be good for career-building, but teaching English abroad can be great for really getting the listening comprehension. It's just so different living somewhere vs. studying a language from a distance, especially if you make the effort to get to know people and do things locally.
I've been watching subbed anime for... huh, about two decades now, so I'm way ahead of the curve on just hearing things without understanding them. It was nice to get some things for free when I started learning the language, the little interjections or common responses. No questions about いってきます or いってらっしゃい when starting out. It is also nice to now be able to sometimes catch what somebody says in a show, and occasionally fun (and disorienting) to see the subs and audio not really match. I'd still be lost without subs, though.
I've thought about the teaching English thing, but being married, owning a house, and being well into a career makes it a bit of a non-starter. Might be a fun way to live there for a year and really solidify the language after I'm FI. Then again, I could get a fast track visa to work in my career area there if I really wanted; 10 day turnaround on paperwork if you have a job offer! And they offer a special 6-month, renewable tourist visa to people that can show something like $300k in liquid assets, so I have options aside from English if I want to spend a good quantity of time there.
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I've been watching subbed anime for... huh, about two decades now, so I'm way ahead of the curve on just hearing things without understanding them. It was nice to get some things for free when I started learning the language, the little interjections or common responses. No questions about いってきます or いってらっしゃい when starting out. It is also nice to now be able to sometimes catch what somebody says in a show, and occasionally fun (and disorienting) to see the subs and audio not really match. I'd still be lost without subs, though.
Oh. Okay, well forget what I said. I didn't start watching anime until I'd already been studying Japanese for about 20 years, so when I finally got over my reluctance to try it and found some shows I could enjoy, it was this amazing revelation. Maybe it's time you just watch without subtitles whether you like it or not. Even if you feel like you don't understand, you probably do a little bit, especially with the visual context. If you were living in Japan, there wouldn't be any subtitles to your life.
When I first started watching anime, I felt tired when I watched without subtitles, and I didn't enjoy it as much. Even though I ought to have understood already without the subtitles, I had to force myself to go without them for some time before it felt natural and comfortable to listen at speed. I've found my listening comprehension and speed / fluency has improved a lot in the couple years I've been watching.
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~99% of my Anki flashcards have a spoken component to them. So each card has three ways that come up:
The exception I've found is NHK News Web Easy, which has an option to listen to a commentator read the story in very well spoken standard Tokyo dialect.
Yes the commentator is super helpful and it is great to hear it spoken at the normal speed in the video, and have a slower version to "catch the sounds". thanks for the anki recommendations!
Omachi and Reader, even though people are saying shows with English subtitles aren't helpful for listening comprehension in the long run, maybe at your stage they might help to get the sounds in your head and consolidate what you're getting through flashcards.
It wouldn't necessarily be good for career-building, but teaching English abroad can be great for really getting the listening comprehension. It's just so different living somewhere vs. studying a language from a distance, especially if you make the effort to get to know people and do things locally.
watching anime sounds like a fun way to do listening comprehension :) thanks for the recommendations.
would be looking into teaching english abroad as an option for semi-retirement.. sounds interesting.
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Teaching English abroad is definitely an option. Once your students find out you can speak a bit of their language, they will try to talk to you all the time in their native language, because it’s easier for them than talking in English. I find this to be true more with the younger people (university/high school students) than with adults though.
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I've been studying Japanese for about 15 months.
I started with Genki then moved to Tae Kim, which I think is a fantastic resource. I read all of Tae Kim (both the Complete Guide and the Grammar Guide) then starting consuming media. Jisho.org is my main dictionary.
I have two Anki decks, one for reading and one for writing. The reading cards show the kanji on the front and the kana and the English definition on the back. The writing cards are the reverse of that. Both cards are the same note type so when I add a new word it gets added to both decks. I wish I had started with Anki right away, but I only started the reading deck in January and the writing deck a few months later. I find that writing a word helps a lot with being able to remember it when I see it later in the wild or in the reading deck. I add enough words so that I have twelve new words in the reading deck each day, though I only do five new words a day in the writing deck as that takes a lot longer. All in all about 30 minutes of Anki time each day.
I think it is best to learn words in context, so I add all my words from things that I read or hear in the wild. Each time a word comes up in Anki I can then recall the context in which I first encountered it. For learning new words, I have been reading manga and books, watching anime with Japanese subtitles, and playing games. For me it seems to be best to hear the word spoken as I encounter it, so I find anime and games to particularly useful in this regard, especially voiced VNs/galge that are text heavy. I haven't gotten into any live-action TV or movies yet, though I think I will start watching some toku soon, perhaps Garo.
Unfortunately I have no practice with speaking or writing (other than writing individual words). I'd love to find people to speak to but I can't find any Japanese groups in my city. There are language partner sites on the internet but I've been too nervous to use one.
Anki is a fantastic tool that I would recommend to learners of any language. It's made Japanese so easy for me that I'd now like to learn a whole bunch of other languages. Spanish is next on the list, though I'd like to get better with Japanese before I start any new languages.
暗記最高！草
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How about finding an anime based on something you love/have expertise in, and doing the watch-listen-watch technique?* You're already very familiar with the subject matter; it's just in a different language. When you learn new words or look stuff up, it's like traveling a well established highway of understanding in your brain, and adding a lane in your non-native language.
*I did this with a baseball anime my first year in Japan. I'd watch an episode and take copious notes, then play the episode again and listen while looking at my notes (not the screen), and finally watch one more time. I planned to do this for all 150 episodes, but found that it wasn't necessary after about 100; by then, I was getting most of it the first time through. It worked wonders for me (although it also taught me things that didn't work in the real world, but were great conversation starters).
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I've just found Viki, which has shows in Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. I decided to try rewatching an episode I'd seen before on Dramafever with subtitles, but this time without subtitles on Viki.
It amazed me to find there is a 'Learn Mode' for subtitles. If you turn on Learn Mode, you get both the original language subtitles and your chosen language subtitles. Then if you click a word in the original language, the video pauses, and you get the translation into your chosen language. It looks like the translations for individual words you click aren't great at interpreting like small bits of grammar or conjugated verbs, but it's good for nouns. https://support.viki.com/hc/en-us/articles/231829048
I don't have time tonight to go through a whole episode, but I'm really hopeful that this will be a good next step for me with Korean. I also had a good conversation with a coworker today about how to find a language exchange partner locally. It sounds easier than I thought.
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How about finding an anime based on something you love/have expertise in, and doing the watch-listen-watch technique?* . . .
*I did this with a baseball anime my first year in Japan. I'd watch an episode and take copious notes, then play the episode again and listen while looking at my notes (not the screen), and finally watch one more time. I planned to do this for all 150 episodes, but found that it wasn't necessary after about 100; by then, I was getting most of it the first time through. It worked wonders for me (although it also taught me things that didn't work in the real world, but were great conversation starters).
This sounds like a great technique. Can you say a little more? Did you watch with original language subtitles, no subtitles, or English ones? Were you pausing it a lot to take all of those notes? Ever since you posted this, I've been wanting to try it, but I've hesitated.
I'm currently watching a Korean drama in 'learn mode' with both Korean and English subtitles. That is a little better than before when I just had the English subtitles because I'm paying more attention to the words that are being said. Occasionally I'll pause and replay bits of dialogue. But it would be good to be more proactive and focused about learning from the conversations.
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I was home with a bad cold all day yesterday, and apart from sleeping and handling a few more urgent emails, I was mostly watching Korean dramas.
I also found a new site I hadn't used before. Has anyone mentioned italki (https://www.italki.com/i/EEee66?hl=en_us) yet? It's a site where you can find language exchange partners, professional language teachers, and 'community tutors' (non-professional teachers who charge less per hour). I've messaged with a couple potential language exchange partners, and I scheduled a trial lesson for this afternoon with a community tutor. Here's hoping it will be good and helpful. The link above is a referral link, which will give you (and me) a bonus of $10 after you schedule your first lesson using credits you've purchased. So the bonus won't show up immediately but will if you actually end up using it. For Korean, the lessons range from $5 for a 30 minute trial lesson with a community tutor to $20 per hour for a professional teacher. For Japanese, the lower end was the same, but there was a wider range, up to $24 or even $50 per hour.
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How about finding an anime based on something you love/have expertise in, and doing the watch-listen-watch technique?* . . .
*I did this with a baseball anime my first year in Japan. I'd watch an episode and take copious notes, then play the episode again and listen while looking at my notes (not the screen), and finally watch one more time. I planned to do this for all 150 episodes, but found that it wasn't necessary after about 100; by then, I was getting most of it the first time through. It worked wonders for me (although it also taught me things that didn't work in the real world, but were great conversation starters).
This sounds like a great technique. Can you say a little more? Did you watch with original language subtitles, no subtitles, or English ones? Were you pausing it a lot to take all of those notes? Ever since you posted this, I've been wanting to try it, but I've hesitated.
I'm currently watching a Korean drama in 'learn mode' with both Korean and English subtitles. That is a little better than before when I just had the English subtitles because I'm paying more attention to the words that are being said. Occasionally I'll pause and replay bits of dialogue. But it would be good to be more proactive and focused about learning from the conversations.
At the time, I carried a pocket-sized notebook with me everywhere I went, and made notes all day long. I'd hear or see a word or phrase I didn't know, write it in Japanese, write the kanji if I was able to understand the speaker telling me how to write it, and then my best guess at the English translation. When I got home (no smartphones in these times), I'd check everything in dictionaries or online, and then add the best stuff to flashcards I rotated through on a regular basis.
I used the same notebooks for the baseball anime. Subtitles were not available; it was all based off listening, just like real life. I often heard things incorrectly or incompletely, and was unable to find meanings online or in the dictionaries I had on hand. This worked to my advantage though - I cross-referenced nearly every word with locals anyway, and was usually able to get them to fill in the blanks or point me in the right direction.
I paused on occasion. I knew a listening-only run-through was coming with the second go-round, so I didn't worry too much the first time through.
Most of my methods were rudimentary and brute-force (I also pounded the 2000-odd joyo kanji using a plastic bag full of bits of construction paper, each with one character on them, drawn at random), but they really helped me build a solid foundation of reading and listening skills. With the notebooks, I was constantly conversing with Japanese people about Japanese in Japanese, so I learned how they deal with words or characters that are unfamiliar to them (more likely to children, not the adults I was talking to).
There was also a lot of trial-and-error with my initial guesses at meanings and translations, through which I was unwittingly building the foundation for my translation career. English subtitles would have made all of this easier, but perhaps the lessons wouldn't have been as sticky.
Of all of the above, access to native speakers was key, but if I hadn't come up with my own material (all the questions), I'd have spent a lot more time with the "Where are you from? What are your hobbies?" type conversations that, while important, must be surpassed at some point.
East Asian languages are tough for native English speakers, but the effort pays off big time. It's quite a rush to conquer the challenge of expressing yourself and understanding others, and then run into yet another slice of the boundless complexity to tackle. Hope you find your ways and stick with it!
What are your interests? Do any intersect with existing Korean/Japanese content?
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@yakamashii This is great. I was much more rudimentary and brute force when I was starting to learn Japanese -- I couldn't even look things up online because it was so long ago. But I did get an electronic dictionary that I carried around everywhere while in Japan. I feel like with all this technology around it should be easy now with Korean, but there's still a lot of basic hard work that has to happen.
My first 30-minute trial lesson with italki was good. I chose a community tutor who teaches Korean using Japanese, and it was helpful. I think I'm going to go ahead and so some more lessons with him rather than doing other trial lessons. Because the sentence structure is similar and the Sino-Japanese vocabulary overlaps with the Sino-Korean vocabulary, I'm hoping that learning via Japanese will be more efficient than it would be via English. Today was very basic getting to know each other, figuring out the level of the lesson, etc, but it sounds like for the next lessons we'll be using a beginner book that is all in Korean. Even though this was on Skype, it was nice to have a private lesson with a live teacher after only using online courses and flashcards and books.
I also scheduled my first language-exchange session with a real-life Japanese friend who wants to learn English. It's been a long time since I tried formal language exchange. I hope we can work it out so that it's helpful for both of us. For my Japanese text, I'm planning to use 女性の美しい話し方と会話術 (Conversational skills and how to speak beautifully, for women), which I found some years ago at Book Off. Photos attached. My goal for Japanese is to sound more natural and professional, especially in meetings, on the phone, and in work-related social settings. My language exchange partner wants to feel comfortable with basic everyday conversations and to improve her listening comprehension.
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@yakamashii This is great. I was much more rudimentary and brute force when I was starting to learn Japanese -- I couldn't even look things up online because it was so long ago. But I did get an electronic dictionary that I carried around everywhere while in Japan. I feel like with all this technology around it should be easy now with Korean, but there's still a lot of basic hard work that has to happen.
My first 30-minute trial lesson with italki was good. I chose a community tutor who teaches Korean using Japanese, and it was helpful. I think I'm going to go ahead and so some more lessons with him rather than doing other trial lessons. Because the sentence structure is similar and the Sino-Japanese vocabulary overlaps with the Sino-Korean vocabulary, I'm hoping that learning via Japanese will be more efficient than it would be via English. Today was very basic getting to know each other, figuring out the level of the lesson, etc, but it sounds like for the next lessons we'll be using a beginner book that is all in Korean. Even though this was on Skype, it was nice to have a private lesson with a live teacher after only using online courses and flashcards and books.
I also scheduled my first language-exchange session with a real-life Japanese friend who wants to learn English. It's been a long time since I tried formal language exchange. I hope we can work it out so that it's helpful for both of us. For my Japanese text, I'm planning to use 女性の美しい話し方と会話術 (Conversational skills and how to speak beautifully, for women), which I found some years ago at Book Off. Photos attached. My goal for Japanese is to sound more natural and professional, especially in meetings, on the phone, and in work-related social settings. My language exchange partner wants to feel comfortable with basic everyday conversations and to improve her listening comprehension.
That teacher who teaches Korean in Japanese sounds like a great find for you, as does the Japanese language exchange partner. (By the way, I reread the thread. I forgot that you passed JLPT 1 and already use Japanese at work, so I feel a bit ridiculous for extolling the virtues of learning an East Asian language ＜赤面＞)
Are your goals to sound more natural and professional in Japanese more about vocabulary and other content-related stuff, or more about pronunciation? Both or neither? I ask because I have some tips for the latter. If it's not a concern, ignore the following:
-Record yourself speaking Japanese/Korean if you can. Really hear how/where your pronunciation differs from native speakers, and drill down on those sounds. For NES learning Japanese, that's typically the ラ column; the rhythm of the ん sound, double vowels and double consonants; the ん sound itself; the quickly voiced/unvoiced い and う sounds; and eliminating all schwa sounds from speech. You have my sympathy with Korean vowels :)
-Find someone whom you think speaks beautiful Japanese/Korean, record/get recordings of them, and imitate their pronunciation, intonation and rhythm. Treat it as though they're singing a song, and sing along; the languages aren't tonal, except that they kind of are. I don't know about Korean, but as you know, Japanese is very rhythmic, and getting that rhythm right improves how you are received just as much as adding new vocabulary.
-Focus on beginnings. If people are finishing your sentences, they are right there with you and you're phrasing things like a native. If they're hanging onto every word, there might be a more native way to phrase your thoughts (of course, this doesn't apply in all situations; however, mentally checking this every now and then is a good way to check how you sound).
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Thanks, yakamashii. Extol the benefits of learning an East Asian language as much as you like. I'm all for it.
My concerns about sounding professional and natural were mainly around situation-appropriate vocabulary / phrasing and levels of politeness. I also get nervous speaking on the phone, and I'm rubbish at composing professional emails in Japanese. At work, I usually speak a mix of Japanese and English with a Japanese co-worker, and we're very informal and all about getting stuff done. Usually reading is more important, and I often write work emails in English for the person to respond to in Japanese. But then occasionally I will need to greet a visiting Japanese person, who sometimes turns out to be important. Sometimes I know that in advance and other times it is sudden. A few weeks ago I ended up interpreting at a wedding reception, including speeches. I have several occasions in the next few months that will involve meeting important Japanese people. It's not really that my job is so fancy but that I'm the only full-time person in my institution who speaks Japanese.
I like the idea of recording a speaker and practising that. That might be something I could ask my language exchange partner and also offer her for English if she doesn't mind my American accent.
Focusing on beginnings is good advice. In more polite situations, my defence mechanism is to use casual forms followed by だと思います / 思っております etc. (. . . . so I think) or でしょうか。(could it be?) or some other sentence ending that feels like it might make things sound nicer. But I think it's time to learn to be properly polite or at least expand my repertoire of things I can add to the end of sentences.
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OMG I was put on the spot at a wedding once, too! It was the worst! I was so nervous and probably said all the words to be avoided on wedding day.
Great goals. For me, the big hurdles were learning to wield keigo/kenjogo and させていただきます properly. Seasonal greetings also buy some goodwill.
As a J-E translator, I look at Japanese writing all day every day, and a decent portion of it is correspondence. Also, 90% of my own correspondence with clients is in Japanese. If you can't get your Japanese coworker to look at your writing, I'd be happy to take a look and give my opinion (and benefit from the opportunity to see how another NES communicates in Japanese). Confidential information redacted, of course. Your call.
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Thank you for the offer, but I think I'd probably better struggle with the writing on my own for a while. I can ask my co-worker to read it if it's important to write in Japanese, and I should be able to ask my language exchange partner about how to get started writing more.
Now to learn the Korean for 'Hello. My name is Kwill. I am an American. I live in England.' I should have learnt basics like that already, but I kept going with the online lessons without ever getting any conversation practice.
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Chiming in, but I'm at a more beginner level than anyone listed so far. Learning Japanese, and making some progress but miles behind in my listening skills. It definitely shows that I do most studying on the bus, where I can't do audio as effectively. I'm heading over to Crunchyroll now to test out some of the recommendations. Thank you
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I joined a Korean course recently for fun and I am finding it terribly hard to keep up (full time job, two kids ages 5 and 2, utterly unrealistic to study much between the sessions and the pace of the course is insane) but also determined to rise to the challenge.
I don't even know why I am doing this, it has no direct relevance for my private or professional life, but on the other hand that is maybe precisely why. I want to learn something new just for the sake of learning and expanding my horizons, without the feeling that everything needs to fit into a career narrative.
Checking in here for thinking it might give me extra motivation.
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I joined a Korean course recently for fun and I am finding it terribly hard to keep up (full time job, two kids ages 5 and 2, utterly unrealistic to study much between the sessions and the pace of the course is insane) but also determined to rise to the challenge.
I don't even know why I am doing this, it has no direct relevance for my private or professional life, but on the other hand that is maybe precisely why. I want to learn something new just for the sake of learning and expanding my horizons, without the feeling that everything needs to fit into a career narrative.
Checking in here for thinking it might give me extra motivation.
Good luck with it. There's a freedom in learning something just because. It's great to have the opportunity to take a course, but it must be hard to keep up with a formal class with that much going on.
I just finished watching 'W', a Korean drama. I enjoyed this one, and it has a lot of repetition of things like who, what, when, where, why. Sounds like you have plenty to do already, but if you want listening practice later on: https://www.viki.com/videos/1105299v-w-episode-1
The MOOCs on Coursera from Yonsei were pretty good if you want a refresher at your own pace when the course you're doing is done.
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Great goals. For me, the big hurdles were learning to wield keigo/kenjogo and させていただきます properly. Seasonal greetings also buy some goodwill.
Question about 敬語. Several times in fiction I've come across a situation where characters are conversing with ～ます and です, what I understand to be called 丁寧語, but another character remarks that they are speaking in 敬語. My impression is that 敬語 refers to 尊敬語/謙譲語 i.e. お～する, いらっしゃる, 申す, いただく, etc. What am I missing here?
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Great goals. For me, the big hurdles were learning to wield keigo/kenjogo and させていただきます properly. Seasonal greetings also buy some goodwill.
Question about 敬語. Several times in fiction I've come across a situation where characters are conversing with ～ます and です, what I understand to be called 丁寧語, but another character remarks that they are speaking in 敬語. My impression is that 敬語 refers to 尊敬語/謙譲語 i.e. お～する, いらっしゃる, 申す, いただく, etc. What am I missing here?
They might be using an honorific verb in its polite form -- is that the case? X to mousimasu, etc? (sorry, am on a computer w/o a Japanese keyboard right now)
It's also possible that the character is using "keigo" in a very broad sense to refer to any sort of polite language, versus just the humbling/honorific forms that are the sort of Platonic ideal of keigo.
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Great goals. For me, the big hurdles were learning to wield keigo/kenjogo and させていただきます properly. Seasonal greetings also buy some goodwill.
Question about 敬語. Several times in fiction I've come across a situation where characters are conversing with ～ます and です, what I understand to be called 丁寧語, but another character remarks that they are speaking in 敬語. My impression is that 敬語 refers to 尊敬語/謙譲語 i.e. お～する, いらっしゃる, 申す, いただく, etc. What am I missing here?
Can you find the passage again for us? If you post a photo of the page, we could give you more of a sense of what's going on with that. But maybe what Diapason said
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They might be using an honorific verb in its polite form -- is that the case? X to mousimasu, etc? (sorry, am on a computer w/o a Japanese keyboard right now)
It's also possible that the character is using "keigo" in a very broad sense to refer to any sort of polite language, versus just the humbling/honorific forms that are the sort of Platonic ideal of keigo.
Regular verbs with polite endings is what I was encountering, so that's what was confusing me. I didn't realize the usage of "keigo" was broad enough to include politeness in general, but that makes sense.
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Just took my first practice test for the JLPT N4 tonight and passed it, with plenty of points to spare, though nowhere near as perfectly as I'd have liked. I botched a whole group of listening comprehension questions by second guessing - going from the correct answer to a wrong one. Oops. Still, looks like I'm in good shape with weeks to go. Two more practice tests in the book, so hopefully I can pass those with increasingly good scores.
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That's great! Congratulations, Omachi. That must be a confidence boost.
I'm now planning to do the Korean version of that in April, but I haven't done a proper practice test yet, only one online. The TOPIK has a tiered passing system where you can get either the lowest or the second-lowest level on the same beginner test. So far on the sections I tried, I just barely passed the lowest level with little to spare. I am hoping to get in a stronger position by spring.
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The practice tests were a good confidence boost. I took the actual test this past weekend and I'm pretty sure I passed. We'll see when it's scored. I'm less worried about the listening section than I was for the N5, and I passed that, so I think that's a good sign. I also have my new mental list of things I need to improve on. And likely some revisions to past flashcards to fix some of those issues going forward.
Good luck with the Korean test. If it's in April and you're already passing practice tests (even just barely) you should have plenty of time to get to a really solid position for the real thing if you just keep to your regular study.
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おはよう! After much procrastination, rethinking my approach to Japanese. Gonna mull it over. Thanks for this thread!
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おはよう! After much procrastination, rethinking my approach to Japanese. Gonna mull it over. Thanks for this thread!
Thanks for joining us. Good luck with the study!
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Some 18 months into my study, I am finally starting to understand かける.
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Tonight I signed up for the TOPIK, beginner level. In the UK, it's on Saturday, 20 April, and you have until this Friday, 25 January, to apply (http://www.koreaneducentreinuk.org/en/announcement/?uid=1056&mod=document). There are different sites to apply for the test in different countries.
The application itself was hard, but now I've got a definite date and goal set up for myself.
Is anyone else doing the TOPIK? Anyone else taking it in April in London?
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Test results for the JLPT were posted. I passed the N4! Listening was hard, but my score was on par with what I got on the N5 listening section, so I'm pretty happy about that.
Already started an intermediate textbook. Enjoying it so far, though the listening comprehension has gotten tough there. Audio is a lot faster and it's hard to keep up. I know that's part of what's needed in order to think in the language and not mentally translate or search about for the meaning of a word. Still rough while making that transition.
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Test results for the JLPT were posted. I passed the N4! Listening was hard, but my score was on par with what I got on the N5 listening section, so I'm pretty happy about that.
Already started an intermediate textbook. Enjoying it so far, though the listening comprehension has gotten tough there. Audio is a lot faster and it's hard to keep up. I know that's part of what's needed in order to think in the language and not mentally translate or search about for the meaning of a word. Still rough while making that transition.
Congratulations! That is great.
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I started learning Japanese about a year and a half ago. I'm currently using only apps on my phone (so I can do them anywhere). I'm using Mango (free from library), Memrise, Duolingo, and Anki cards. Each ones has strong points.
I'm nowhere near fluent, but I'm to the point where I can pick up on a lot of phrases I hear in anime. I haven't touched it in a few months, it's probably time I got back to it...
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Test results for the JLPT were posted. I passed the N4! Listening was hard, but my score was on par with what I got on the N5 listening section, so I'm pretty happy about that.
Already started an intermediate textbook. Enjoying it so far, though the listening comprehension has gotten tough there. Audio is a lot faster and it's hard to keep up. I know that's part of what's needed in order to think in the language and not mentally translate or search about for the meaning of a word. Still rough while making that transition.
Belated congratulations for this. It is nice to have a real milestone like that. Good luck with the intermediate textbook.
For my part, I'm beginning to spend more and more time on Korean. My weekly language exchange meetings have started back up after a holiday hiatus. I'm watching Korean dramas on Viki in the evenings, and I'm drilling vocabulary on Quizlet (this set (https://quizlet.com/197509320/topik-1-flash-cards/)). I've also gotten out a couple TOPIK prep books, though I haven't spent nearly as much time with them as on Quizlet. I've listened to a few Talk to Me in Korean podcasts, but I find it hard to get into podcast listening.
One big thing is that I told my boss I would be going for the Korean language exam, so it is now officially part of my job to pass this thing. I can't spend much time on this at work because of all the other things that need doing, but at least I can drill vocabulary now and then or listen to a Korean podcast while working on something tedious.
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One big thing is that I told my boss I would be going for the Korean language exam, so it is now officially part of my job to pass this thing.
The other day, I finally sat down and did a proper timed mock test for the reading section of the TOPIK 1. It was awful. In spite of all the time I have spent on this so far, I would have been better off guessing at random. I'm not sure what happened with the test I'd taken online before and passed, whether it wasn't accurate or whether I was just better with listening. I spent a lot of time on Korean the past couple weeks because I had some quiet time at work and also stayed late and brought things home and had language exchange sessions one evening a week and watch Korean dramas at night with dual subtitles (English and Korean). It is super frustrating, especially now that I've told people I'm doing this.
My post-mortem on the mock test is that I need to prioritise TOPIK-specific vocabulary memorisation. This should help with both accuracy and speed. I only finished 60% of the questions, which obviously hurt me. I think my time management should improve just by having done it once and having a better sense of the big picture. I do feel I'm following the words and Korean subtitles more closely now with the dramas, and I'm recognising words I've studied. That makes me feel a little better, but it's not giving me new vocabulary, only reinforcing what I've done. On Quizlet, I'm now showing 14% progress on the TOPIK 1 vocabulary list, but it seems like I get more questions wrong than right, especially when it comes to spelling words in Korean.
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Vocab on tests is one of the biggest frustrations that I have with Japanese as well. There's what I've learned through whatever sources, and then there's test specific stuff that you're expected to know. I'd say my textbooks probably covered 3/4 of what was needed, along with a whole bunch of stuff that's not needed for that specific test. Like, I was 1/4 of the way through the N3 vocabulary when I looked at what was needed for it, because in learning N5 and N4, I picked all that up.
I guess what's particularly frustrating is that if you don't look at test specific vocab, then you'll end up not doing well. But if you do, you're just learning to the test. A lot of that vocab hasn't stuck particularly well because the context I have for it is just a couple flashcards I had to make to get exposure to the word, not something I came across in a more organic manner. My big goal is to learn the language, not just pass a test at a certain time, so it's a little less fun to cram that stuff.
What's particularly funny is that in reading childrens' books, first grade level stuff, I'm picking up a bunch of N1 ("fluent") words. So a first grader is expected to know the word, or ask a parent and then know it, but foreign learners don't need it until they're approaching fluency. Yay tests.
Hope you can get things in shape before the TOPIK test. If you only got through 60%, you're obviously going to be hurting at scoring time. My only tip there is that if you don't know something on a question, mark it in your booklet, skip it, and come back to it if there's time. If you're only going to get through ~60% of the questions, make sure they're the ones you know. It's possible you could have nailed the remaining 40% if you'd just gotten to them in time.
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Vocab on tests is one of the biggest frustrations that I have with Japanese as well. There's what I've learned through whatever sources, and then there's test specific stuff that you're expected to know. I'd say my textbooks probably covered 3/4 of what was needed, along with a whole bunch of stuff that's not needed for that specific test. Like, I was 1/4 of the way through the N3 vocabulary when I looked at what was needed for it, because in learning N5 and N4, I picked all that up.
I guess what's particularly frustrating is that if you don't look at test specific vocab, then you'll end up not doing well. But if you do, you're just learning to the test. A lot of that vocab hasn't stuck particularly well because the context I have for it is just a couple flashcards I had to make to get exposure to the word, not something I came across in a more organic manner. My big goal is to learn the language, not just pass a test at a certain time, so it's a little less fun to cram that stuff.
What's particularly funny is that in reading childrens' books, first grade level stuff, I'm picking up a bunch of N1 ("fluent") words. So a first grader is expected to know the word, or ask a parent and then know it, but foreign learners don't need it until they're approaching fluency. Yay tests.
Hope you can get things in shape before the TOPIK test. If you only got through 60%, you're obviously going to be hurting at scoring time. My only tip there is that if you don't know something on a question, mark it in your booklet, skip it, and come back to it if there's time. If you're only going to get through ~60% of the questions, make sure they're the ones you know. It's possible you could have nailed the remaining 40% if you'd just gotten to them in time.
Thank you, Omachi. This was a helpful and encouraging post.
I hope I can catch up, but to be honest, I found there were very few questions that I could have answered in any amount of time. I've got just over 2 months. I'm hoping that drilling the vocabulary first and then doing more mock tests will make a difference.
Yeah, vocab for tests is different from vocab for life, but I think this one is based on studies of word frequency in Korean. It should be helpful to know the most frequent words. I just really haven't made as much progress as I had hoped at this point. I wonder sometimes if it's because I'm much older than I was when I started learning Japanese or if it's because this time I'm trying to teach myself instead of taking structured classes.
In committing to taking the TOPIK, I wanted to give myself a definite goal to work toward. Even if it's just a test, it provides some structure, and there's a set of vocabulary and grammar on which I can focus. I guess even if I don't pass it this time, I will still get the benefit of whatever preparation I do for it.
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Yeah, vocab for tests is different from vocab for life, but I think this one is based on studies of word frequency in Korean. It should be helpful to know the most frequent words. I just really haven't made as much progress as I had hoped at this point. I wonder sometimes if it's because I'm much older than I was when I started learning Japanese or if it's because this time I'm trying to teach myself instead of taking structured classes.
In committing to taking the TOPIK, I wanted to give myself a definite goal to work toward. Even if it's just a test, it provides some structure, and there's a set of vocabulary and grammar on which I can focus. I guess even if I don't pass it this time, I will still get the benefit of whatever preparation I do for it.
That's pretty much my reason for taking the JLPT as well. Something small and concrete to work towards instead of trying to eat the whole elephant in one go. Failure wouldn't be a problem so long as it gives me good direction on what I need to study. Of course, passing is nice, so good luck.
None of the JLPT vocab was useless, it's just that there were probably other words that might be more useful in frequent contexts. Like knowing the word for "vocabulary word" before "embassy". One is really useful in a learning context, the other only if you have a big issue in Japan.
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Like knowing the word for "vocabulary word"
単語？ I'm finding there are a lot of words that map to the same or close English definition so I often don't know which is the correct one to use in a certain situation without having seen it in the wild numerous times. E.g. 納得 vs 承知. I should probably start using Japanese definitions.
@Kwill how are you studying vocabulary? I find it useful to write down (in my case, add to my Anki deck) every unfamiliar word I come across in context, such as when watching a show with Japanese subtitles or reading a book. It was really tedious in the beginning when I was looking up 4/5 words but I have about 4200 in my deck now and it's a lot smoother. This approach definitely forces you to pick up a lot of vocab relatively quickly.
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Like knowing the word for "vocabulary word"
単語？ I'm finding there are a lot of words that map to the same or close English definition so I often don't know which is the correct one to use in a certain situation without having seen it in the wild numerous times. E.g. 納得 vs 承知. I should probably start using Japanese definitions.
@Kwill how are you studying vocabulary? I find it useful to write down (in my case, add to my Anki deck) every unfamiliar word I come across in context, such as when watching a show with Japanese subtitles or reading a book. It was really tedious in the beginning when I was looking up 4/5 words but I have about 4200 in my deck now and it's a lot smoother. This approach definitely forces you to pick up a lot of vocab relatively quickly.
It's a good idea. Right now I am focusing on the vocabulary for this specific test, so I'm mainly using Quizlet with flashcards that someone else made up for the test (https://quizlet.com/197509320/topik-1-flash-cards/). There are 1153 cards. Lately I've been doing them in 'Learn Mode' which tests vocabulary. It uses spaced repetition and only introduces a few terms at a time. Sometimes I'll just let the flashcards play, and sometimes I'll do a matching game if I'm waiting somewhere.
As you said, context helps. Once I recognise a word in the wild, I remember it better. Right now I'm re-watching 'W' with both Korean and English subtitles, and I'm recognising more words than before.
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Like knowing the word for "vocabulary word"
単語？ I'm finding there are a lot of words that map to the same or close English definition so I often don't know which is the correct one to use in a certain situation without having seen it in the wild numerous times. E.g. 納得 vs 承知. I should probably start using Japanese definitions.
Using Japanese definitions is an excellent idea. That will make it a lot easier to see differences that aren't apparent in the most common English gloss (and you'll see that, particularly with 漢語 words, you can't rely on the most common gloss).
In your example, 納得 means to understand _and_ accept ("Yeah, that makes sense/sounds reasonable"), while 承知 as in 承知しました is simply acknowledging receipt of information ("I have been informed."). The difference is stark in Japanese, but that's hard to see without hearing it in the wild, as everyone's saying. A 和和 dictionary will help.
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In your example, 納得 means to understand _and_ accept ("Yeah, that makes sense/sounds reasonable"), while 承知 as in 承知しました is simply acknowledging receipt of information ("I have been informed."). The difference is stark in Japanese, but that's hard to see without hearing it in the wild, as everyone's saying. A 和和 dictionary will help.
That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.
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I tried a new book this weekend: Let's Speak Korean (https://smile.amazon.com/Lets-Speak-Korean-Introduction-Conversational/dp/B000K02XV4/). I wasn't expecting much because it is a bit old (originally published 1987), and it provides Romanisation for almost everything. Plus the Romanisation is an older style that isn't used as much now. On the other hand, a free copy was available, and I was tired of the things I'd been using.
Turns out it was really helpful. I started it yesterday morning and went through the whole thing this weekend -- fairly carefully for the first few chapters and then just going quickly through the conversations and grammar notes and vocabulary lists for the rest so that I could finish. I found the grammar explanations helpful. The Romanisation helped me much more than I realised it would. A lot of this was review of things I'd encountered elsewhere, but it felt like it stuck with me better. I want to go back through the whole thing a couple more times.
The vocabulary and grammar covered seemed to fit well enough with what I encountered on the TOPIK practice test, though there is more vocabulary in the TOPIK than is covered in this book. I'm still going through the practice test carefully to understand what I should have answered, so I was able to see specific points there. Also, this mainly uses a more formal set of verb forms (like 입니다), which is what is on the test, instead of the slightly more informal set (like 이에요) that is what I encountered in the MOOCs and in some other study material.
I'm now re-watching Goblin (https://www.viki.com/tv/31706c-goblin) with just Korean-language subtitles. I still only recognise a tiny proportion of the words, but I can follow the story since I saw it before. It feels like I've really made progress this weekend.
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Things are moving along and getting better. I now think I honestly have a chance to do well on the TOPIK on 20 April.
Last week I tried another practice exam. This time I only did the first half of the reading portion (20 out of 40 questions), and it took me 37 minutes (more than half of the 1 hour allotted for the full reading portion). I got 65% right. I was really happy with the improvement, even though I recognise I'm still slow and the second half of the questions may be harder. I think the last time, I got about 12% or 14% right, partly due to only finishing 60% of the questions before the time limit.
What made the difference? Going over the question instructions and question types with my language partner ahead of time so that I didn't need to spend time understanding the question format during the exam. Going through the last practice test carefully to understand what I did wrong for each question. Understanding more of the grammar thanks to the textbook I used last weekend. Learning more vocabulary.
I switched from Quizlet to Memrise, and I wish I'd done that months ago. I'm finding Memrise much quicker and less frustrating for learning new vocabulary, so after about a week, I've gotten through 29.5% of the vocabulary on a TOPIK 1 list (1516 words), compared to the 18% of a shorter vocabulary list (1186 words) I reviewed in a few months of Quizlet. I also feel I've got a better grasp of the vocabulary now. I'm spending more time on Memrise than I had on Quizlet, but partly that is because it is more interesting and easier to use.
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Still going with Memrise at about 50 words per day. It's getting easier now that I'm used to it, and I'm recognising a lot of words from Japanese, English, or prior study of Korean. I'm now 75% of the way through the TOPIK 1 vocabulary, and I'm recognising a lot of vocabulary when I watch Korean dramas. My goal is now to finish the vocabulary about 8 days from now and then spend the remaining time before the exam doing practice tests and reviewing grammar and vocabulary. I go back and forth between kicking myself for not studying this way before and thinking that maybe it's easier now because I studied in a slower way for the prior few years.
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I just took the TOPIK 1 exam on Saturday. It was really hard. The results won't be out until the end of May, but my guess is that I passed at the low beginner level and fell short of the high beginner level. If I did pass the high beginner level, it was just by the skin of my teeth and with some lucky guessing. The hardest parts for me were the reading comprehension questions toward the end of the reading section, where you read short paragraphs and answer questions based on them. I am just not fast enough at reading. I'm barely hanging on to the vocabulary, and I didn't have time to really work on grammar and reading practice.
I feel discouraged after all the hard work, especially over the past two months when I was working as intensely as I could on Korean with a full-time job and other commitments. There were a lot of things that got put on the back burner during the past two months, and now I wonder if I should have focused on those instead.
Is a low beginner TOPIK pass worth all the time that I put into it? I have enough Korean knowledge now to handle some of the very basic tasks I wanted to be able to do at work: puzzle out book titles, recognise navigation buttons on websites that use images for their buttons that can't be auto-translated, and understand very basic and common greetings. Maybe I can build on that foundation over time, but right now I need a good long break from it. I think I'll at least continue with vocabulary reviews on Memrise, but the time spent on that should decrease over time.
How do you handle a break-up with a language exchange partner? I'm considering making this week my last meeting with my conversation partner, but I feel bad about cancelling on her after she's been so helpful the past several months.
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TOPIK results came out today! I passed level 1 but not level 2. This morning before I saw the scores I wrote down a prediction of 93 points total, and in the end I got 130 total, beating my prediction by quite a bit. Level 2 needs 140 points, so I wasn't far off.
The situation with the language exchange partner was completely fine. I don't know why I was worried. Turned out that she was busy, too. It's been awhile now since we've met, but I just wrote to let her know I passed the exam and to thank her for her help.
Since the exam, I've been keeping up with reviews on Memrise but not adding much new vocabulary or content. I've been watching less Korean dramas, but I started listening to Iyagi conversation podcasts (https://player.fm/series/iyagi-natural-korean-conversations-for-learners). I also started listening to NHK news podcasts (https://www.nhk.or.jp/podcasts/program/r-news.html) in Japanese to balance it out. Once some time goes by and I feel ready, I want to go ahead and focus on passing level 3 next, rather than spending more time on TOPIK I.
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Sorry for bailing on this thread. Life got in the way. I've still done nearly no studying this whole year. I miss it and also don't have the bandwidth. Just the way it's going to be for a while. I won't be targeting the JLPT this year for obvious reasons.
A belated congrats on passing the TOPIK level 1 exam! Best of luck on the next exam you take.
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Sorry for bailing on this thread. Life got in the way. I've still done nearly no studying this whole year. I miss it and also don't have the bandwidth. Just the way it's going to be for a while. I won't be targeting the JLPT this year for obvious reasons.
A belated congrats on passing the TOPIK level 1 exam! Best of luck on the next exam you take.
Thank you, omachi. I hope life gets better and easier so that you feel like you have the energy to get back to whatever challenges seem worthwhile and exciting.
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I'd love to hear more updates from people.
Here are a couple updates on my language progress.
Japanese: I passed the Pro test on mygengo.com (http://mygengo.com). I have never done enough on the site to make it worth paying a fee to get money out, but it was nice to have the validation of passing and the prospect of taking jobs that pay at a higher rate. There never seems to be much work available there, so it's more of a theoretical sideline than a real one.
Lately I'm using Japanese a bit at work (reading, listening, and speaking) and occasionally watching some anime without subtitles. I've got a couple small unpaid literary translations to work on as well.
Korean: I was burnt out on Korean for a long time. I pushed myself long enough to get through the TOPIK, but I'm only just barely coming around again to the idea of studying. I kept up with the Memrise flashcards in the interim, so at least I've solidified that vocabulary. I'm currently doing Duolingo and the Memrise reviews, and I'm occasionally watching Korean dramas.
Today I went looking for a new textbook and borrowed Intermediate College Korean in paper before realising it had a site with text and audio clips (http://www.language.berkeley.edu/korean/10/course_info.htm). It's designed to be a second-year university course, but I think I'll give it a try. (Edit to note that the URL for the audio for the first lesson is not quite right. You can download it if you change the end bit to lesson1-text.mp3 insteaad of lesson01-text.mp3 )
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蘇れ！
I've finally reached one hundred posts and can resurrect this thread. How are everyone's studies going?
I'm still keeping up with Japanese. I was planning on taking the N2 this year, but the JLPT has been canceled here in the States so it'll be an entire year before I can take anything. If I do take it next year I think I'll go for the N1.
Although I haven't read very much in general this year, I was able to finish three novels in Japanese, a first for me.
Back in February I joined a local Japanese conversation group. We were able to meet in person three times before Covid came to town; since then we've been meeting on discord. It's been a lot of fun. We've even had someone join from Yokohama so we've got the support of a native speaker, and I've made a friend in Japan I can hang out with when I eventually go. Maybe next year if things permit.
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Used some downtime earlier this year to bone up on Japanese adverbs, particularly ones that end in り (ゆっくり、やんわり、くっきり等). I don't run into them all that much in my work, but when I hear them on the street or on TV, it bugs me a bit that their meanings are so fuzzy in my mind.
I entered a couple literary translation contests to explore the option of translating literature during downshifting/after FIRE. It's a whole different beast than business and technical translation, and I've had to do a lot more googling than usual to grasp significance and implicit meanings (ex. Is there a reason the author chose a persimmon tree, or is a persimmon tree just a persimmon tree?).
Outside the contests, I've only read Japanese books whose English translations I'd already read (for example, コンビニ人間 after having read Convenience Store Woman last year). Looking to read more, but don't really know where to start. @YYK, what are those books you read, and did you like them?
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Welcome @YYK ! Reading three novels, feeling prepared for N2 even if you couldn't take it, and keeping up with a Japanese conversation group all sound like great progress.
Nice to hear from you @yakamashii ! Literary translation sounds like a really interesting project. Translation contests are probably a good place to start, both for the practice and for the potential recognition.
I felt silly posting here all by myself, so I stopped updating. I haven't stopped studying. In Memrise, I'm working on a JLPT N1 vocabulary list for Japanese and a TOPIK intermediate list for Korean. I did an online mock TOPIK test this summer and passed level 2 (advanced beginner). As with YYK, it wasn't practical to take the real thing this year, I'm thinking of studying for the next level and trying for level 3 in about a year. The TOPIK levels are numbered the opposite way from the JLPT. I have a sort of literary translation project that is way overdue, so finishing and submitting that is a goal for some downtime this month.
During the first UK lockdown, I got some help online with Korean lessons and did some conversation practice with Japanese, but I haven't done as much lately. I'm still watching Korean dramas and occasionally some Japanese anime to keep the languages in my ears.
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I'm glad to hear from you guys! I was bummed when the new rule went into effect and I couldn't post in here anymore. That's really cool that you guys are doing translations. That's something I've thought about but haven't attempted anything yet.
Used some downtime earlier this year to bone up on Japanese adverbs, particularly ones that end in り (ゆっくり、やんわり、くっきり等). I don't run into them all that much in my work, but when I hear them on the street or on TV, it bugs me a bit that their meanings are so fuzzy in my mind.
I entered a couple literary translation contests to explore the option of translating literature during downshifting/after FIRE. It's a whole different beast than business and technical translation, and I've had to do a lot more googling than usual to grasp significance and implicit meanings (ex. Is there a reason the author chose a persimmon tree, or is a persimmon tree just a persimmon tree?).
Outside the contests, I've only read Japanese books whose English translations I'd already read (for example, コンビニ人間 after having read Convenience Store Woman last year). Looking to read more, but don't really know where to start. @YYK, what are those books you read, and did you like them?
I enjoy those kinds of adverbs but I'm not good at using them when speaking. My English brain isn't comfortable using onomatopoeias to describe things! My speaking in general is still kinda stiff and bookish since that's my main point of reference. I'm working on getting more fluid and conversational.
Regarding books, they were all ラノベ that I honestly didn't enjoy very much and wouldn't recommend, but they were all I could get my hands on. Likewise I'm at somewhat of a loss of what to read next. The only authors I know off the top of my head are Murakami, Dazai, and Natsume Souseki. I suppose that's not a bad place to start. I did think about picking up the 古事記 for the heck of it, but I'm not sure I want to put the energy into wading through that.
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On another note, I enjoy collecting 四字熟語 and came across one recently that I think is perfect for MMMers: 質素倹約
My other favorites include 疑心暗鬼 and 波瀾万丈. I really like the feel, sound, and look of these even if I don't find them particularly relevant to daily life.
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Regarding books, they were all ラノベ that I honestly didn't enjoy very much and wouldn't recommend, but they were all I could get my hands on. Likewise I'm at somewhat of a loss of what to read next. The only authors I know off the top of my head are Murakami, Dazai, and Natsume Souseki. I suppose that's not a bad place to start. I did think about picking up the 古事記 for the heck of it, but I'm not sure I want to put the energy into wading through that.
What do you like to read in English or whatever is your best language? I really enjoyed reading the Harry Potter series in Japanese. I also read the 獣の奏者 series (http://book-sp.kodansha.co.jp/topics/kemono/) and loved that enough to be disappointed in the anime later. With young adult fiction sometimes the hardcover will have furigana for kids, but the bunkobon will leave that out for adults.
People differ a lot in what they enjoy. Amazon Japan will ship new books overseas, and the shipping cost is pretty low per book if you are getting more than one volume. Breaking into Japanese Literature (https://www.tofugu.com/reviews/breaking-into-japanese-literature/) could be a good thing to try if you want classics. Or maybe something from Aozora Bunko like Soseki's I am a Cat (https://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000148/files/789_14547.html). For (slightly) more recent authors, you might try Endo Shusaku, Miyabe Miyuki, or Murakami Haruki.
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What do you like to read in English or whatever is your best language? I really enjoyed reading the Harry Potter series in Japanese. I also read the 獣の奏者 series (http://book-sp.kodansha.co.jp/topics/kemono/) and loved that enough to be disappointed in the anime later. With young adult fiction sometimes the hardcover will have furigana for kids, but the bunkobon will leave that out for adults.
People differ a lot in what they enjoy. Amazon Japan will ship new books overseas, and the shipping cost is pretty low per book if you are getting more than one volume. Breaking into Japanese Literature (https://www.tofugu.com/reviews/breaking-into-japanese-literature/) could be a good thing to try if you want classics. Or maybe something from Aozora Bunko like Soseki's I am a Cat (https://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000148/files/789_14547.html). For (slightly) more recent authors, you might try Endo Shusaku, Miyabe Miyuki, or Murakami Haruki.
So many good recommendations! Thank you.
In English I mostly read fantasy when I'm not reading history. I'm currently reading through Discworld. 獣の奏者 seems to check the fantasy box so I'm definitely going to look into that. Breaking into Japanese Literature looks like a a really neat concept. Reading some classics is definitely something I'd like to do so I'll be taking a look at those stories as well.
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On another note, I enjoy collecting 四字熟語 and came across one recently that I think is perfect for MMMers: 質素倹約
My other favorites include 疑心暗鬼 and 波瀾万丈. I really like the feel, sound, and look of these even if I don't find them particularly relevant to daily life.
Those are fun 四字熟語. I'm more of a ことわざ person myself, and the one that makes me think of Mustachianism in terms of the folly of consumerism (particularly the conspicuous variety) is 能ある鷹は爪を隠す.
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@Kwill, can you tell us more about that literary translation project? Which of your languages? What's it about? How'd it come about? How do you feel how it's going?
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The project is in Japanese. I'm reworking two pieces I translated in grad school and writing short introductions to contribute to an anthology that my former professor is editing. One of my translations was pretty decent already, and the other was a train wreck I had to completely retranslate. The translations are mostly done, but I sort of lost confidence and stalled. What I need to do now is fix and reduce the footnotes, double-check everything, and finish the intros.
Any tips for just getting stuff done?
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The project is in Japanese. I'm reworking two pieces I translated in grad school and writing short introductions to contribute to an anthology that my former professor is editing. One of my translations was pretty decent already, and the other was a train wreck I had to completely retranslate. The translations are mostly done, but I sort of lost confidence and stalled. What I need to do now is fix and reduce the footnotes, double-check everything, and finish the intros.
Any tips for just getting stuff done?
Have other stuff to get done that is less appealing than this stuff to get done? When something is languishing on my list of things to do, it eventually gets done when something more unpleasant appears on the list. Not really a Step to Success, I know.
Money, deadlines, and clearing the way for more money and deadlines are what motivate me to get translations done. Absent any of those, I guess I would want to divide the job into tasks and sketch out a schedule. Maybe prohibit myself from starting something more fun until I finish the job or get ahead of schedule?
ご苦労様 to you for redoing that translation. Were you able to remember the source text pretty well, or was it like reading it anew? I really struggle with revisiting work after too long.
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Those are fun 四字熟語. I'm more of a ことわざ person myself, and the one that makes me think of Mustachianism in terms of the folly of consumerism (particularly the conspicuous variety) is 能ある鷹は爪を隠す.
Oh that's a good one! I'm keeping that. I've come across very few ことわざ so far. My favorite is probably 月に叢雲、花に風. Runner up is 無い袖は振れぬ. Mostly just like the sound of these.
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ご苦労様 to you for redoing that translation. Were you able to remember the source text pretty well, or was it like reading it anew? I really struggle with revisiting work after too long.
Thank you for your thoughts and sorry to be so long replying. I've finally started making some progress toward finishing the translations after blocking out an hour each weekday and giving myself an Outlook notification for it. It's borderline within the scope of my day job to get this done, so I'm going to try to finish while I'm stuck working from home and can't do everything I'd usually do at work. Once I'm back on site--March? April?--I won't have time in the work day.
It was like starting from scratch with the one I had to redo. The trouble was I didn't fully understand the source text to begin with, which is why my original translation was so problematic. These aren't long, but they're 18th century with some obscure references. The footnotes on the Japanese editions help a lot, but they can also be a little obscure sometimes.
I wanted to share that a translation of Hōjōki (https://www.facebook.com/groups/205316262926151/permalink/2444787165645705) is currently free on Kindle if you're interested in Japanese literature. It's only free until the end of January, but you can keep it if you download it by then.
I'm plugging along with language study a bit at a time. Right now I'm doing vocabulary on Memrise for Korean and Japanese, and I'm watching Korean dramas and occasional Japanese dramas or anime in the evenings. I use Viki.com and Crunchyroll.com but I'd be glad of suggestions for alternate legal sources for Japanese shows. I mainly started watching anime for Japanese listening practice, but I prefer watching dramas. Also, I don't necessarily want to sound like an anime character when I speak. I've subscribed to the NHK Radio News podcast (http://www.nhk.or.jp/radionews/), but I don't always listen to it.
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I've been reading 獣の奏者 slowly for a while now thanks to Kwill's recommendation. I'm enjoying it quite a lot, and learning lots of neat new words like 孵卵 and 鞍. If I hadn't already read a book on apiculture I'd be learning a lot about that as well!
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I've been reading 獣の奏者 slowly for a while now thanks to Kwill's recommendation. I'm enjoying it quite a lot, and learning lots of neat new words like 孵卵 and 鞍. If I hadn't already read a book on apiculture I'd be learning a lot about that as well!
I'm glad you're enjoying it! I've tried several times to get into another series by the same author, the 守り人 series, but there's something about the 獣の奏者 world or the characters that I just found more gripping.
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I found an interesting article on 新字体 vs 旧字体. This author is violently opposed to standardization and simplification and I don't find their arguments convincing at all, but there's some interesting history there that I was unaware of.
https://kanjinaritachi.jimdofree.com/%E8%A8%80%E8%AA%9E%E7%A0%B4%E5%A3%8A/%E6%97%A7%E5%AD%97%E4%BD%93%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7/
There are some traditional forms that I do prefer over their modern counterparts, for example 國 which I find easier to write cleanly than 国. However, I can't help but look at the list of simplified kanji in use and agree that the simplifications were merited. I am biased to the Japanese side of things however, because I look at the PRC simplifications and think "that's too simplified" and ROC-style full traditional as "too complicated", whereas the Japanese simplifications I think of as "just right."
Something I learned from that article is that apparently the modern forms aren't necessarily modern simplifications but are sometimes a standardization of an existing simpler variant. 体 for instance is apparently one of the variants for たい that had been in use before the war along with 體 and 躰.
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Skipping right to the heart because finding this thread late:
Anki etc. and anime already listed, hm...
If you want to train your listening, do podcasts. This is less for understanding things than to getting used to the sound and rhythm. Of course it is more fun if you get most of the content and it is a topic you like.
I did this with my favorite voice actor/singer who had several (internet) radio shows. It really helps if you love the voice :D
There are also a few visual novels on steam where you can have both English and Japanese at the same time. Nekopara for example (but that might not be for everyones taste - catgirls and 18+ stuff (not in the steam version). I found it great for learning, you have both Japanese and English written and you can repeat the voices as often you want. (There is a demo /part 0 that should be free)
Most visual novels only allow one Language at a time though and steam does not let you start the same game twice.
Youtube videos about Japan. I like e.g. the Ask Japanese channel and there are some interview videos, so real life street people talking (and other videos often have some Japanese in them too). All the videos have English subtitles.
If you are just starting with Kanji, you might want to go with the Heisig books. You certainly should read the introduction (or something similar) regarding the contruction of the Kanji.
Really using Heisig is a big commitment though, since it is not "see something -> learn it -> happy" but more like "learn it -> repeat it for a while out of any context -> see it -> happy". It is a lot of work before you get real use out of it.
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@LennStar I'm sorry I never replied. Between the whole pandemic thing and just not seeing the thread pop up again later, I missed replying.
You've got some good ideas for study. I had the Heisig books a long time before I actually got very far with them. What made the difference for me was this site Kanji Koohii (https://kanji.koohii.com/), which has turned the Heisig books into a flashcard system with spaced repetition. I memorised all of the first book with that, and it made all the difference in the world to my reading and writing. Very highly recommend it. I haven't used the site in years, so now all my cards are expired, which is sad. I'd like to go back and work through the third book at some point, but I'm focusing on other things at the moment.
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@YYK Thank you for sharing. You might enjoy playing with this Kuzushiji database search (http://codh.rois.ac.jp/char-shape/search/). You can type in a character and see what it looks like in images scanned from old documents and books from different periods of history. There was really a lot of variety.
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I started getting more serious (again) about improving in Japanese and Korean back in the summer. There was about a month or so when I was taking a lesson a week for each language via iTalki and also having conversations on 'Sail (https://sailglobal.helte.jp/)', which is a platform for 25-minute conversations with Japanese senior citizen volunteers. At some point I might subscribe, but I was just using a sample pack of free conversations I'd gotten as a special thing for signing up. I felt a little awkward about it, but the people were very nice. It sounds like most of the learners are from Southeast Asia and are trying to learn enough Japanese to move there for work.
Currently, I'm taking a weekly lesson over Skype with a Japanese woman who focuses on Japanese for work contexts. We're going through this book (https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%80%8E%E3%83%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%81%A7%E5%AD%A6%E3%81%B6%E3%83%93%E3%82%B8%E3%83%8D%E3%82%B9%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E-%E3%82%B0%E3%83%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%90%E3%83%AB%E4%BC%81%E6%A5%AD%E3%81%A7%E3%81%AE%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E6%A7%8B%E7%AF%89%E3%82%92%E3%82%81%E3%81%96%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E3%80%8F-%E6%9D%91%E9%87%8E-%E7%AF%80%E5%AD%90%E3%83%BB%E5%B1%B1%E8%BE%BA-%E7%9C%9F%E7%90%86%E5%AD%90%E3%83%BB%E5%90%91%E5%B1%B1/dp/4883195953), which I like so far. I'm doing a JLPT N1 vocabulary deck (https://app.memrise.com/course/45725/jlpt-n1-2000-vocabulary-words-japanese/) on Memrise.
Korean is the big thing right now. Tonight I signed up to take TOPIK II on 9 April 2022. I'm not ready for this, but I'm aiming to fail as high as I can. I've started meeting to practise Korean with a Korean woman who is here for a year because of her husband's job. The first time we met I mentioned that I wanted to eventually pass TOPIK II level 3 because there's a language scholarship I could apply for to study in Korea for 6 months. Now she's really pushing me to take this seriously, improve my grammar, practise writing, build vocabulary, and pass the test. It makes it more fun that somebody besides me is excited about it. I've been plodding along with a TOPIK II vocabulary deck (https://app.memrise.com/course/45232/topik-master-intermediate/) on Memrise for months and am only 33% of the way through (632 / 1860 words). I need to pick up the pace on that, but beyond that I'm not sure how to structure the study or what book to use for grammar. I ended up with an introductory Korean book from the 1980s, which my language exchange friend thinks isn't bad for explaining grammar. I've also downloaded the lower intermediate book from the King Sejong Institute but haven't started that yet. It feels like it'd be more efficient to get something that specifically goes through points for the exam. I'm open to suggestions.