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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Roland of Gilead on April 01, 2021, 07:01:54 PM

Title: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Roland of Gilead on April 01, 2021, 07:01:54 PM
We don't have kids, and old enough now that we won't be having any but I just got this email:

"Policy Update – Patients 13 and Older Will Establish Their Own Portal Accounts

Effective April 5, 2021

Beginning April 5, 2021, parents will no longer have access to Protected Health Information (PHI) belonging to children 13 and older, in accordance with Washington state privacy laws. The result is that upon turning 13, your child will have sole access to test results and to chart notes produced in the practice or during a hospital stay. Your current access to your child’spatient portal will be disabled on April 5; your 13-year-old may reestablish their portal account using their own email address. "


Does this seem a bit too far?   What if a kid is diagnosed with something that a 13 year old is incapable of mentally handling on their own?  Are not parents supposed to help council their kids?   

What if a kid has mental health issues which could endanger other kids (school shootings don't happen though right?).   I would think a parent should be able to access the medical records of someone who they are legally responsible to care for.

Thoughts?  Could just be yet another case of the state of Washington being bat shit crazy...
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Morning Glory on April 01, 2021, 07:48:33 PM
This is normal. It's meant to allow kids to get birth control and mental health treatment without having to tell their parents. Imagine if your kid needed an std test but was too afraid to tell you that they'd had sex. You would still want them to get the test, right? They can give you permission to see their records, or parts of them.

 The shitty thing is that the insurance eob still goes to the parent who carries the insurance, even after the child is 18. This law doesn't close that loophole, it only prohibits access to the chart

Providers are legally obligated to report patients who are a danger to themselves or others. I would think not being treated for mental health issues would be a bigger concern.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Sid Hoffman on April 01, 2021, 08:50:01 PM
How could this ever go wrong? When I was 13 years old I was way smarter than my parents. They're idiots, after all. It took until I was 25 before my parents started making any sense and I was 40 before my parents caught up to me in intelligence. Surely leaving 13 year olds to manage all their own medical care is a fantastic idea and will never result in doctors running up thousands of dollars of bills that the parents and their insurance are on the hook to pay by using scare tactics guaranteed to work on young teenagers who don't know any better. Oh sorry, I mean teenagers who should have honorary PhDs because adults are all idiots and kids are so smart they can manage their care without adult supervision in a for-profit medical system designed to extract the maximum dollars from every patient.

So no, this will never result in any problems. Kids should never have adult supervision when making life or death decisions or signing off on $15,000 elective medical procedures. No problems here!
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Paul der Krake on April 01, 2021, 09:10:16 PM
Yeah that's whack and silly.

"You went to the doctor?"
"Yeah but I'm not going to tell you why."
"Oh sorry, I didn't mean to invade your privacy. Dinner is in 30 minutes."

Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Sibley on April 01, 2021, 09:11:00 PM
I understand the desire to ensure that teens are able to get birth control and mental health treatment, despite potential parental opposition. Not to mention vaccines, STD testing, etc. I get it. But the system overall is not designed in such a way for this to work.

People be dumb :(
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Morning Glory on April 01, 2021, 09:31:35 PM
How could this ever go wrong? When I was 13 years old I was way smarter than my parents. They're idiots, after all. It took until I was 25 before my parents started making any sense and I was 40 before my parents caught up to me in intelligence. Surely leaving 13 year olds to manage all their own medical care is a fantastic idea and will never result in doctors running up thousands of dollars of bills that the parents and their insurance are on the hook to pay by using scare tactics guaranteed to work on young teenagers who don't know any better. Oh sorry, I mean teenagers who should have honorary PhDs because adults are all idiots and kids are so smart they can manage their care without adult supervision in a for-profit medical system designed to extract the maximum dollars from every patient.

So no, this will never result in any problems. Kids should never have adult supervision when making life or death decisions or signing off on $15,000 elective medical procedures. No problems here!

The parent is still required to sign off on any procedure requiring informed consent (surgery etc) until the child is eighteen, with the exception of certain ones pertaining to pregnancy, abortion, and std treatment. The list varies by state.  The conservative outrage machine must have left that out.

Also most medical professionals are ethical and aren't out there to do unnecessary procedures and extract dollars. Jeez. The provider is also still allowed to talk to the parent except for a couple of situations already mentioned (reproductive health, some mental health, etc). The law only pertains to electronic records.

The risk of teens being dishonest with health providers about things like drug use is much greater if they are afraid that the parent will read the chart.

As little as ten years ago, depending on location, these electronic charts weren't available to anyone. You had to go to the records office and pay for a copy and it would often take weeks to obtain. Your doctor's office had to call you with test results. Nobody ever saw the chart. We all had to become a little more tactful in our note-writing once the portals became commonplace.

Calm down.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Zamboni on April 02, 2021, 01:12:39 AM
Yeah, while the easy access to electronic records is sure handy sometimes, I wish all of my medical info wasn't out there on the interwebs so easy to hack into. I have no confidence that those charts containing my private information are properly secure.

The irony of all of this stuff with kids and their electronic charts is that, due to some big recent lawsuit payouts involving molestation, teenagers of driving age are often not able to even sign themselves in for appointments with big medical system providers. I had to go check my son in for every single one of his ankle PT appointments. So, I couldn't see his online chart (which I'm fine with not seeing), but I did have to drive over to the PT office every Tuesday and Thursday at 3pm to meet my son there (because he drove himself straight there from school) just so I could show my ID to the receptionist. And then I promptly left, because there's really no reason for me to sit there watching him rehab his ankle injury.

And, yes, I did complain and complain about this waste of my time and gasoline, over and over, and tell them that it was stupid that I was having to show my parental ID for them to check in someone with a full beard who is legally allowed to operate heavy machinery. Eventually they said there was some sort of waiver I could sign, but they never were able to come up with their required waiver form for me to sign, and eventually the point became moot.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 02, 2021, 02:33:01 AM
Yeah that's whack and silly.

"You went to the doctor?"
"Yeah but I'm not going to tell you why."
"Oh sorry, I didn't mean to invade your privacy. Dinner is in 30 minutes."

Alternately  . . . in my house


"You went to the doctor?"
"Yeah, but I'm not going to tell you why."
"Then you're not going to eat.  I bet you'll tell me within the week."
"Have you ever wondered if a hotwheels would fit up your butt?  Turns out it goes in OK, but has trouble reversing."
"Now I wish I didn't know.  Pull up a seat at the table.  If you can."

:P


I can't really see this rule preventing a parent from finding out exactly what's going on with their kid.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: ericrugiero on April 02, 2021, 06:58:50 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Roland of Gilead on April 02, 2021, 07:06:51 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: OtherJen on April 02, 2021, 07:22:20 AM
Teens are too frequently abused or kicked out of their homes because of reproductive health/sexual issues (happened to my cousin), or parents may refuse to take a child to a clinic to have such issues treated.

I know someone who is dealing with the repercussions of what was likely untreated endometriosis (based on what sound like awful symptoms and later fertility problems) in her teenage years. Her family of origin is very religious and conservative, so her mother wouldn’t even entertain the thought of a gynecological consult when she was under 18.

I also had horrible periods (9 days long, migraines and vomiting the first 2 days) when I was in high school but would never have dreamed of asking to see a gynecologist because that would have been interpreted as “she’s having sex,” even though I wasn’t allowed to date or even attend parties unless my parents could drive me and go inside to meet the other parents. When I found a lump in my breast, the pediatrician dealt with that. I had my first gyno exam at the university clinic when I was an 18-year-old college freshman, went on the pill, and had “normal” periods (5 days long, manageable symptoms) for the first time in 6 years.

But yes, the issue of confidentiality is moot if the parents will be notified by health insurance companies.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Laserjet3051 on April 02, 2021, 07:24:46 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Morning Glory on April 02, 2021, 07:52:40 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

They do. Each child has their own little deductible and oop max, even newborns). For a  child under 18 the parent still has to give permission for medical procedures, with the exception of emergencies and certain scenarios mentioned above. For young adults 18-26 who are still on the parent's insurance, the parent is still the "guarantor" and is responsible for paying for the care, even though they may know nothing about it until months later.  There is no way to set it up to have someone on your insurance but they receive the bills for copays, deductibles, etc.  It is no different than having your spouse on your insurance.

The parent also receives the EOB: there was a big lawsuit about that in (Indiana?) recently. Daughter was 22 and had a miscarriage and didn't want to tell the family she was pregnant and they found out because she was on their insurance. This law doesn't appear to address that issue at all.

If we had single-payer this would all be a non-issue.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 02, 2021, 08:04:14 AM
Nothing there is specifying that parents can't get information about their child's health.

I would be curious what the actual laws are on that front.

If my teen patient asked me to keep their medical information from their parents, I was absolutely obliged to do so unless I, in my medical judgement, felt the parents needed to be informed. This is basically no different.

I'm assuming that the doctors involved are still obliged to contact the parents for anything that they deem the parents should be involved in, the parents just aren't getting default access to their teens medical records, so they can't access on demand every detail without having a reason to know it.

If that's how the law is set up, then it seems completely reasonable to me.

I frequently had parents push me to tell them about what their teens said in appointments, and I was very happy to be legally allowed not to share personal information with them if their teen didn't want it shared and they didn't need to be involved. Many teens will not disclose concerns if they fear their parents will find out. It's a huge issue, we need to be able to give them the appropriate degree of privacy, and at a certain point, that decision is one that should be determined by the teen and their healthcare professional, not their parents.

I have absolutely shared information with parents that teens didn't want shared, because it was a case where the parents needed to be informed. Such as the kid who let me know that he had seriously relapsed in his drug use and was engaging in life threatening behaviour. He begged me not to tell his parents, but I knew his parents were very supportive and wouldn't harm him as a result of this disclosure. He wanted me to keep it secret so that he could keep using.

The 16 year old Muslim girl who contracted oral herpes and had a meltdown about her family finding out? Yeah, I never said a word and was happy to legally be able to protect her privacy and give her some valtrex.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: scantee on April 02, 2021, 08:25:40 AM
When this came up last year for my now 13-year old it was actually a good teaching moment about health and data privacy. I explained the reasoning behind why the rule exists and who it is there to protect. Then I talked through how it would be helpful for me to be able to see his records and asked if he agreed. He signed without issue and I made it clear he was free to change his mind.

For families with strong relationships this is a non-issue. For families without strong relationships it is meant to protect the kid. It seems like you have your undies in a bundle for no reason.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Davnasty on April 02, 2021, 09:22:33 AM
How could this ever go wrong? When I was 13 years old I was way smarter than my parents. They're idiots, after all. It took until I was 25 before my parents started making any sense and I was 40 before my parents caught up to me in intelligence. Surely leaving 13 year olds to manage all their own medical care is a fantastic idea and will never result in doctors running up thousands of dollars of bills that the parents and their insurance are on the hook to pay by using scare tactics guaranteed to work on young teenagers who don't know any better. Oh sorry, I mean teenagers who should have honorary PhDs because adults are all idiots and kids are so smart they can manage their care without adult supervision in a for-profit medical system designed to extract the maximum dollars from every patient.

So no, this will never result in any problems. Kids should never have adult supervision when making life or death decisions or signing off on $15,000 elective medical procedures. No problems here!

The parent is still required to sign off on any procedure requiring informed consent (surgery etc) until the child is eighteen, with the exception of certain ones pertaining to pregnancy, abortion, and std treatment. The list varies by state.  The conservative outrage machine must have left that out.

Also most medical professionals are ethical and aren't out there to do unnecessary procedures and extract dollars. Jeez. The provider is also still allowed to talk to the parent except for a couple of situations already mentioned (reproductive health, some mental health, etc). The law only pertains to electronic records.

The risk of teens being dishonest with health providers about things like drug use is much greater if they are afraid that the parent will read the chart.

As little as ten years ago, depending on location, these electronic charts weren't available to anyone. You had to go to the records office and pay for a copy and it would often take weeks to obtain. Your doctor's office had to call you with test results. Nobody ever saw the chart. We all had to become a little more tactful in our note-writing once the portals became commonplace.

Calm down.

Thanks for providing some context. When policy sounds outrageous, occasionally it really is, but more often it just sounds that way due to missing details. This is a good reminder to dig a little deeper before getting emotionally invested in something I don't understand.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 02, 2021, 09:33:43 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.

The years of 13 to 18 are so problematic with health and other issues.

But it sure gives me pause to know that 13 year olds can  get body changing hormones, testosterone and etc, with little to no therapeutic intervention or requirement in some places. These hormones do permanent damage and are not reversible when the teen decides to “de transition.”

Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Kris on April 02, 2021, 09:49:52 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.

The years of 13 to 18 are so problematic with health and other issues.

But it sure gives me pause to know that 13 year olds can  get body changing hormones, testosterone and etc, with little to no therapeutic intervention or requirement in some places. These hormones do permanent damage and are not reversible when the teen decides to “de transition.”

Can you please post information about how, when and where that occurs? Because as far as I can see, generally what happens for minors who are trans is, they are put on hormone blockers to arrest puberty. And hormone blockers do not do permanent damage. If one decides to stop taking them, puberty simply continues as before.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: CodingHare on April 02, 2021, 10:08:45 AM
Does this seem a bit too far?   What if a kid is diagnosed with something that a 13 year old is incapable of mentally handling on their own?  Are not parents supposed to help council their kids?   

What if a kid has mental health issues which could endanger other kids (school shootings don't happen though right?).   I would think a parent should be able to access the medical records of someone who they are legally responsible to care for.

Thoughts?  Could just be yet another case of the state of Washington being bat shit crazy...

I also live in Washington State, and I was so happy when I got this email.  My mother didn't believe in "extreme and unnecessary medicine"-- by which she meant birth control exclusively.  It was literally being prescribed to me as a noninvasive way to control my acne, which my mother refuse to believe was hormone driven.    But no, it would give me "permission" to have sex*, so I got to enjoy heavy acne well through my college years until I finally got a job and my own insurance.  Wouldn't you know the acne cleared up right after I started BC?

* The permission to have sex thing was doubly hilarious since I was homeschooled and I literally had zero social life.

All parents believe they are being responsible, but the system is not well setup to protect kids who want (a) to protect their reproductive health while being born female, (b) are LGBTQ+ with bigoted parents who refuse to understand their medical treatment (see people in this very thread claiming this will let minors get gender reassignment surgery and not hormone blockers), or (c) have anti vax parents endangering their lives with their anti-science bullshit out of "love."  Laws like this give kids who are in the position I was in better health outcomes.  That's what we all want in the end, right?
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Kris on April 02, 2021, 10:18:02 AM
Does this seem a bit too far?   What if a kid is diagnosed with something that a 13 year old is incapable of mentally handling on their own?  Are not parents supposed to help council their kids?   

What if a kid has mental health issues which could endanger other kids (school shootings don't happen though right?).   I would think a parent should be able to access the medical records of someone who they are legally responsible to care for.

Thoughts?  Could just be yet another case of the state of Washington being bat shit crazy...

I also live in Washington State, and I was so happy when I got this email.  My mother didn't believe in "extreme and unnecessary medicine"-- by which she meant birth control exclusively.  It was literally being prescribed to me as a noninvasive way to control my acne, which my mother refuse to believe was hormone driven.    But no, it would give me "permission" to have sex*, so I got to enjoy heavy acne well through my college years until I finally got a job and my own insurance.  Wouldn't you know the acne cleared up right after I started BC?

* The permission to have sex thing was doubly hilarious since I was homeschooled and I literally had zero social life.

All parents believe they are being responsible, but the system is not well setup to protect kids who want (a) to protect their reproductive health while being born female, (b) are LGBTQ+ with bigoted parents who refuse to understand their medical treatment (see people in this very thread claiming this will let minors get gender reassignment surgery and not hormone blockers), or (c) have anti vax parents endangering their lives with their anti-science bullshit out of "love."  Laws like this give kids who are in the position I was in better health outcomes.  That's what we all want in the end, right?

d) or have parents who are straight-up abusive.

Agreed. Laws like this give kids better mental and physical health outcomes.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 02, 2021, 10:26:38 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.

The years of 13 to 18 are so problematic with health and other issues.

But it sure gives me pause to know that 13 year olds can  get body changing hormones, testosterone and etc, with little to no therapeutic intervention or requirement in some places. These hormones do permanent damage and are not reversible when the teen decides to “de transition.”

Can you please post information about how, when and where that occurs? Because as far as I can see, generally what happens for minors who are trans is, they are put on hormone blockers to arrest puberty. And hormone blockers do not do permanent damage. If one decides to stop taking them, puberty simply continues as before.

Is there a large group of young people transitioning to another gender?

The last study I read (which was Canadian) indicated that less than a quarter of one percent of the general population identified as trans.  The one trans person I knew in my entire time going through elementary and high school (at four different schools in four different cities) took an awful lot of shit from other students and occasionally teachers.  Enough that she certainly had to be VERY certain of what she was doing.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 02, 2021, 11:44:14 AM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.

The years of 13 to 18 are so problematic with health and other issues.

But it sure gives me pause to know that 13 year olds can  get body changing hormones, testosterone and etc, with little to no therapeutic intervention or requirement in some places. These hormones do permanent damage and are not reversible when the teen decides to “de transition.”

Can you please post information about how, when and where that occurs? Because as far as I can see, generally what happens for minors who are trans is, they are put on hormone blockers to arrest puberty. And hormone blockers do not do permanent damage. If one decides to stop taking them, puberty simply continues as before.

Is there a large group of young people transitioning to another gender?

The last study I read (which was Canadian) indicated that less than a quarter of one percent of the general population identified as trans.  The one trans person I knew in my entire time going through elementary and high school (at four different schools in four different cities) took an awful lot of shit from other students and occasionally teachers.  Enough that she certainly had to be VERY certain of what she was doing.

To answer both questions:

The book Irreversible damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters by Abigail Shrier talks about, to Kris’s point, varied use of “T” in girls including minors. It may not be the norm but they are getting it.  From page 167 “In 2007, there was one gender clinic in the United States. Today, there are well over 50; Planned Parenthood, Kaiser, and Mayo all disperse testosterone, too. Many do so on a first visit on a ‘informed consent’ “basis with no referral or therapy required. The age of medical consent varies by state. In Oregon it is 15. “

And I suppose some of them get it in the black market.

As for puberty blockers being entirely harmless, not sure that is true. They slow (change) brain and bone development. That seems just ugh to me.
 
To GuitarStev: this book is based on research that came about when the researcher found a sudden explosion of female to male transitions  taking place among adolescent girls. There  is a cultural current to some of this. Dr. lisa Littmann did the original research which points out the sudden increase in numbers, the clumping aspect of trans kids in peer groups, the overall social phenomena.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 02, 2021, 12:04:05 PM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.

The years of 13 to 18 are so problematic with health and other issues.

But it sure gives me pause to know that 13 year olds can  get body changing hormones, testosterone and etc, with little to no therapeutic intervention or requirement in some places. These hormones do permanent damage and are not reversible when the teen decides to “de transition.”

Can you please post information about how, when and where that occurs? Because as far as I can see, generally what happens for minors who are trans is, they are put on hormone blockers to arrest puberty. And hormone blockers do not do permanent damage. If one decides to stop taking them, puberty simply continues as before.

Is there a large group of young people transitioning to another gender?

The last study I read (which was Canadian) indicated that less than a quarter of one percent of the general population identified as trans.  The one trans person I knew in my entire time going through elementary and high school (at four different schools in four different cities) took an awful lot of shit from other students and occasionally teachers.  Enough that she certainly had to be VERY certain of what she was doing.

To answer both questions:

The book Irreversible damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters by Abigail Shrier talks about, to Kris’s point, varied use of “T” in girls including minors. It may not be the norm but they are getting it.  From page 167 “In 2007, there was one gender clinic in the United States. Today, there are well over 50; Planned Parenthood, Kaiser, and Mayo all disperse testosterone, too. Many do so on a first visit on a ‘informed consent’ “basis with no referral or therapy required. The age of medical consent varies by state. In Oregon it is 15. “

And I suppose some of them get it in the black market.

As for puberty blockers being entirely harmless, not sure that is true. They slow (change) brain and bone development. That seems just ugh to me.
 
To GuitarStev: this book is based on research that came about when the researcher found a sudden explosion of female to male transitions  taking place among adolescent girls. There  is a cultural current to some of this. Dr. lisa Littmann did the original research which points out the sudden increase in numbers, the clumping aspect of trans kids in peer groups, the overall social phenomena.

This is a largely separate issue.

Whether or not medical records should be private for teens vs whether or not transitioning counts as a procedure that should require parental consent.

The vast, overwhelming majority of kids that this law will affect are kids who don't want their parents knowing they're sexually active, using birth control, drinking alcohol, smoking, etc, etc.

You can debate legitimately if you think teens should be able to transition without their parents' consent and what kind of safeguards should be in place for kids, such as mandatory ongoing counselling, family counselling, whatever. That's not the main effect of this rule though.

This law makes kids safer. Lots and lots and lots of kids who have never and will never have anything to do with gender transition.

The law doesn't just make kids safer from parents who might cause them harm, it makes ALL kids safer because they will be more willing to disclose things to their medical professionals. Which is a HUGE ISSUE in treating teenagers.

Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: CodingHare on April 02, 2021, 12:06:07 PM
To answer both questions:

The book Irreversible damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters by Abigail Shrier talks about, to Kris’s point, varied use of “T” in girls including minors. It may not be the norm but they are getting it.  From page 167 “In 2007, there was one gender clinic in the United States. Today, there are well over 50; Planned Parenthood, Kaiser, and Mayo all disperse testosterone, too. Many do so on a first visit on a ‘informed consent’ “basis with no referral or therapy required. The age of medical consent varies by state. In Oregon it is 15. “

And I suppose some of them get it in the black market.

As for puberty blockers being entirely harmless, not sure that is true. They slow (change) brain and bone development. That seems just ugh to me.
 
To GuitarStev: this book is based on research that came about when the researcher found a sudden explosion of female to male transitions  taking place among adolescent girls. There  is a cultural current to some of this. Dr. lisa Littmann did the original research which points out the sudden increase in numbers, the clumping aspect of trans kids in peer groups, the overall social phenomena.

Uh, wow.  That book definitely has an agenda and is not a neutral source.  Abigail Shrier is not a doctor, she is an investigative journalist with a definite conservative agenda.  Do you have sources that actually come from the medical community or just hitpieces?

As for increases in numbers: it is finally becoming much more social acceptable to be Trans.  So of course more people are going to be willing to claim that title if it no longer comes with the baggage of being denied healthcare/thrown out of your house by your family/ostracized from the job market.   The internet also makes it a lot easier to connect with other folks who are experiencing the same medical issues as you are.  We should be happy that we are enabling people to explore their gender identities safely--and lowering the amount of suicides due to gender dysphoria.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 02, 2021, 12:57:27 PM
To answer both questions:

The book Irreversible damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters by Abigail Shrier talks about, to Kris’s point, varied use of “T” in girls including minors. It may not be the norm but they are getting it.  From page 167 “In 2007, there was one gender clinic in the United States. Today, there are well over 50; Planned Parenthood, Kaiser, and Mayo all disperse testosterone, too. Many do so on a first visit on a ‘informed consent’ “basis with no referral or therapy required. The age of medical consent varies by state. In Oregon it is 15. “

And I suppose some of them get it in the black market.

As for puberty blockers being entirely harmless, not sure that is true. They slow (change) brain and bone development. That seems just ugh to me.
 
To GuitarStev: this book is based on research that came about when the researcher found a sudden explosion of female to male transitions  taking place among adolescent girls. There  is a cultural current to some of this. Dr. lisa Littmann did the original research which points out the sudden increase in numbers, the clumping aspect of trans kids in peer groups, the overall social phenomena.

Uh, wow.  That book definitely has an agenda and is not a neutral source.  Abigail Shrier is not a doctor, she is an investigative journalist with a definite conservative agenda.  Do you have sources that actually come from the medical community or just hitpieces?

As for increases in numbers: it is finally becoming much more social acceptable to be Trans.  So of course more people are going to be willing to claim that title if it no longer comes with the baggage of being denied healthcare/thrown out of your house by your family/ostracized from the job market.   The internet also makes it a lot easier to connect with other folks who are experiencing the same medical issues as you are.  We should be happy that we are enabling people to explore their gender identities safely--and lowering the amount of suicides due to gender dysphoria.


I dont advocate wholesale denial of confidential healthcare to teens. I can see that it would have pros and cons, that’s all. Most broad social actions do.

I have watched  many ftm Youtube videos, both transitioners and detransitioners. Those young people present an array of ideas about appropriate transitioning but there sure seems to be a lot of regret oit there.

There is no ONE single view in professional circles. The medical  community has an uneven record of success in this area, and cureent medical research says what exactly? That it is better to render girls sterile and with permanent changes to their body than counsel them through a suicidal phase?

Believe me, I have no idea what I would do with a teenager in this situation and am so glad I didnt have to deal with this or any of the myriad other issues offspring present.

i AM am skeptical that rigid ideas of gender roles is overall a good thing, especially when held by adolescent girls. I thought that was a major tenant if feminism, that gender identified interest and abilities and etc are largely a social construct.

This book provides an alternate point of view to the overwhelming narrative on social media about transitioning. Clearly there are many parents scared and sad about what their daughters are going through, and many of them do not trust that medical professionals know the right thing for their kid. I feel sorry for the parents and children caught up in this.

Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: CodingHare on April 02, 2021, 01:09:02 PM
I dont advocate wholesale denial of confidential healthcare to teens. I can see that it would have pros and cons, that’s all. Most broad social actions do.

I have watched  many ftm Youtube videos, both transitioners and detransitioners. Those young people present an array of ideas about appropriate transitioning but there sure seems to be a lot of regret oit there.

There is no ONE single view in professional circles. The medical  community has an uneven record of success in this area, and cureent medical research says what exactly? That it is better to render girls sterile and with permanent changes to their body than counsel them through a suicidal phase?

Believe me, I have no idea what I would do with a teenager in this situation and am so glad I didnt have to deal with this or any of the myriad other issues offspring present.

i AM am skeptical that rigid ideas of gender roles is overall a good thing, especially when held by adolescent girls. I thought that was a major tenant if feminism, that gender identified interest and abilities and etc are largely a social construct.

This book provides an alternate point of view to the overwhelming narrative on social media about transitioning. Clearly there are many parents scared and sad about what their daughters are going through, and many of them do not trust that medical professionals know the right thing for their kid. I feel sorry for the parents and children caught up in this.
I'd be hesitant to give more credence to the parent's opinion on what transitioning means for these young men (trans men are men) than their children's own voices.  Hormonal blockers are the typical treatment for children under 18, at which point they become adults able to legally make the choices that make sense for their own health.  Lack of support is a major health risk for trans kids in general.

I understand that a child transitioning causes a lot of consternation in the parents too--but the child's health needs to be centered, not their parent's opinions.  I think we agree on that much actually.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Kris on April 02, 2021, 01:32:28 PM
To answer both questions:

The book Irreversible damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters by Abigail Shrier talks about, to Kris’s point, varied use of “T” in girls including minors. It may not be the norm but they are getting it.  From page 167 “In 2007, there was one gender clinic in the United States. Today, there are well over 50; Planned Parenthood, Kaiser, and Mayo all disperse testosterone, too. Many do so on a first visit on a ‘informed consent’ “basis with no referral or therapy required. The age of medical consent varies by state. In Oregon it is 15. “

And I suppose some of them get it in the black market.

As for puberty blockers being entirely harmless, not sure that is true. They slow (change) brain and bone development. That seems just ugh to me.
 
To GuitarStev: this book is based on research that came about when the researcher found a sudden explosion of female to male transitions  taking place among adolescent girls. There  is a cultural current to some of this. Dr. lisa Littmann did the original research which points out the sudden increase in numbers, the clumping aspect of trans kids in peer groups, the overall social phenomena.

Uh, wow.  That book definitely has an agenda and is not a neutral source.  Abigail Shrier is not a doctor, she is an investigative journalist with a definite conservative agenda.  Do you have sources that actually come from the medical community or just hitpieces?

As for increases in numbers: it is finally becoming much more social acceptable to be Trans.  So of course more people are going to be willing to claim that title if it no longer comes with the baggage of being denied healthcare/thrown out of your house by your family/ostracized from the job market.   The internet also makes it a lot easier to connect with other folks who are experiencing the same medical issues as you are.  We should be happy that we are enabling people to explore their gender identities safely--and lowering the amount of suicides due to gender dysphoria.

Yeah, it's... not great. I just checked the ebook out of the library. Poorly sourced, alarmist language. Lots of "someone I talked to" and Youtube videos as sources. This is a book that would be used as a negative example in a "Critical Thinking 101" course about how to evaluate reliable sources.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Chris22 on April 02, 2021, 01:43:05 PM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

Certainly not the same thing, but when I was in college they would not release any information about my grades, etc, to anyone but me unless I signed a release allowing them to send information home to my parents. My parents calmly suggested I was welcome to keep my grades private if I was willing to also pick up my $10k/yr room and board bill (I had a full tuition scholarship, parents covered R&B).  I signed the release.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 02, 2021, 01:58:24 PM
To answer both questions:

The book Irreversible damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters by Abigail Shrier talks about, to Kris’s point, varied use of “T” in girls including minors. It may not be the norm but they are getting it.  From page 167 “In 2007, there was one gender clinic in the United States. Today, there are well over 50; Planned Parenthood, Kaiser, and Mayo all disperse testosterone, too. Many do so on a first visit on a ‘informed consent’ “basis with no referral or therapy required. The age of medical consent varies by state. In Oregon it is 15. “

And I suppose some of them get it in the black market.

As for puberty blockers being entirely harmless, not sure that is true. They slow (change) brain and bone development. That seems just ugh to me.
 
To GuitarStev: this book is based on research that came about when the researcher found a sudden explosion of female to male transitions  taking place among adolescent girls. There  is a cultural current to some of this. Dr. lisa Littmann did the original research which points out the sudden increase in numbers, the clumping aspect of trans kids in peer groups, the overall social phenomena.

Uh, wow.  That book definitely has an agenda and is not a neutral source.  Abigail Shrier is not a doctor, she is an investigative journalist with a definite conservative agenda.  Do you have sources that actually come from the medical community or just hitpieces?

As for increases in numbers: it is finally becoming much more social acceptable to be Trans.  So of course more people are going to be willing to claim that title if it no longer comes with the baggage of being denied healthcare/thrown out of your house by your family/ostracized from the job market.   The internet also makes it a lot easier to connect with other folks who are experiencing the same medical issues as you are.  We should be happy that we are enabling people to explore their gender identities safely--and lowering the amount of suicides due to gender dysphoria.

Yeah, it's... not great. I just checked the ebook out of the library. Poorly sourced, alarmist language. Lots of "someone I talked to" and Youtube videos as sources. This is a book that would be used as a negative example in a "Critical Thinking 101" course about how to evaluate reliable sources.

The original research by Dr. Littman was heavily criticized for using surveys of parents. So yes, there is that point of view. But her main idea was looking at the sudden onset of dysphoria, and she wanted to know from parents how long these kids had felt they were  boys. The traditional ideas of body dysphoria is that trans people Feel something is off from a very young age. Getting objective information about the mindset of 4,6,8 year olds from their parents seems reasonable to me.

I wonder why this research was so ferociously attacked?  Anybody can read the story of  Brown University backing out of it, apologizing, reviewing the research, changing presentations of it, but not changing conclusions.

It’s pretty clear to me that there is an agenda being pushed in this subject area and that agenda is not Littman’s.  it just seems so odd because this is such a troubling area. Why not get real data? Why is real data scary? If it’s not real data then debunk it.

Or maybe, this  like many other human science research just isnt that reliable. And to that I say: no kidding.



Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: PDXTabs on April 02, 2021, 02:49:22 PM
This is normal. It's meant to allow kids to get birth control and mental health treatment without having to tell their parents. Imagine if your kid needed an std test but was too afraid to tell you that they'd had sex. You would still want them to get the test, right? They can give you permission to see their records, or parts of them.

Yes, but it's also a moving target. I think that when I was a kid in OR it was 15 years of age.

Also, in the state of WA it's illegal to leave your 13 year old alone in your car (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.685), so the juxtaposition of the two laws is a little insane. Which is not me complaining about the privacy law.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 02, 2021, 04:04:49 PM
This is normal. It's meant to allow kids to get birth control and mental health treatment without having to tell their parents. Imagine if your kid needed an std test but was too afraid to tell you that they'd had sex. You would still want them to get the test, right? They can give you permission to see their records, or parts of them.

Yes, but it's also a moving target. I think that when I was a kid in OR it was 15 years of age.

Also, in the state of WA it's illegal to leave your 13 year old alone in your car (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.685), so the juxtaposition of the two laws is a little insane. Which is not me complaining about the privacy law.

I don't see how these are related.

Where I practice, doctors still need parental consent for everything unless in their professional opinion they think it's necessary.

What this protects most is the subject matter of what is *said* in medical appointments or non critical medical findings that teens might want kept private. Even if a parent brings their teen to the doctor, and is actively involved in their care, the teen is still entitled to be able to ask their doctor about personal things that they don't want their parents reading about.

Even a child with loving, involved parents should be entitled to privacy as to what they talk about with their doctors. If it turns out to be something that requires treatment, then where I work, we still have to talk to the parents.

A teen should be allowed to talk to their own doctor about their own body without their parents having default access to the details of every single conversation.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: PDXTabs on April 02, 2021, 04:20:35 PM
This is normal. It's meant to allow kids to get birth control and mental health treatment without having to tell their parents. Imagine if your kid needed an std test but was too afraid to tell you that they'd had sex. You would still want them to get the test, right? They can give you permission to see their records, or parts of them.

Yes, but it's also a moving target. I think that when I was a kid in OR it was 15 years of age.

Also, in the state of WA it's illegal to leave your 13 year old alone in your car (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.685), so the juxtaposition of the two laws is a little insane. Which is not me complaining about the privacy law.

I don't see how these are related.

Where I practice, doctors still need parental consent for everything unless in their professional opinion they think it's necessary.

...

They're both age limits to do things that teenagers are capable of in the state of Washington. IDK, as a frequent Washington voter they seem pretty related to me. Also, I made it clear that I'm 100% okay with the privacy law.

EDIT - as a slight aside I grew up in OR where the age of consent for medical stuff is still 15 (https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/HEALTHYPEOPLEFAMILIES/YOUTH/Documents/minor-rights.pdf) (except when it's 14).
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: ixtap on April 02, 2021, 04:26:00 PM
To answer both questions:

The book Irreversible damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters by Abigail Shrier talks about, to Kris’s point, varied use of “T” in girls including minors. It may not be the norm but they are getting it.  From page 167 “In 2007, there was one gender clinic in the United States. Today, there are well over 50; Planned Parenthood, Kaiser, and Mayo all disperse testosterone, too. Many do so on a first visit on a ‘informed consent’ “basis with no referral or therapy required. The age of medical consent varies by state. In Oregon it is 15. “

And I suppose some of them get it in the black market.

As for puberty blockers being entirely harmless, not sure that is true. They slow (change) brain and bone development. That seems just ugh to me.
 
To GuitarStev: this book is based on research that came about when the researcher found a sudden explosion of female to male transitions  taking place among adolescent girls. There  is a cultural current to some of this. Dr. lisa Littmann did the original research which points out the sudden increase in numbers, the clumping aspect of trans kids in peer groups, the overall social phenomena.

Uh, wow.  That book definitely has an agenda and is not a neutral source.  Abigail Shrier is not a doctor, she is an investigative journalist with a definite conservative agenda.  Do you have sources that actually come from the medical community or just hitpieces?

As for increases in numbers: it is finally becoming much more social acceptable to be Trans.  So of course more people are going to be willing to claim that title if it no longer comes with the baggage of being denied healthcare/thrown out of your house by your family/ostracized from the job market.   The internet also makes it a lot easier to connect with other folks who are experiencing the same medical issues as you are.  We should be happy that we are enabling people to explore their gender identities safely--and lowering the amount of suicides due to gender dysphoria.


I dont advocate wholesale denial of confidential healthcare to teens. I can see that it would have pros and cons, that’s all. Most broad social actions do.

I have watched  many ftm Youtube videos, both transitioners and detransitioners. Those young people present an array of ideas about appropriate transitioning but there sure seems to be a lot of regret oit there.

There is no ONE single view in professional circles. The medical  community has an uneven record of success in this area, and cureent medical research says what exactly? That it is better to render girls sterile and with permanent changes to their body than counsel them through a suicidal phase?

Believe me, I have no idea what I would do with a teenager in this situation and am so glad I didnt have to deal with this or any of the myriad other issues offspring present.

i AM am skeptical that rigid ideas of gender roles is overall a good thing, especially when held by adolescent girls. I thought that was a major tenant if feminism, that gender identified interest and abilities and etc are largely a social construct.

This book provides an alternate point of view to the overwhelming narrative on social media about transitioning. Clearly there are many parents scared and sad about what their daughters are going through, and many of them do not trust that medical professionals know the right thing for their kid. I feel sorry for the parents and children caught up in this.

If you are concerned about regrets, you should know that the single most common reason for "detransitioning" is parental pressure and more than half choose to go through with it later on.

Transitioning saves lives. Until we live in a genuinely gender neutral society, where everyone can where what they choose and play with the toys of their choosing and get the same pay, that will probably continue to be true.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: maizefolk on April 02, 2021, 04:43:43 PM
Is there a large group of young people transitioning to another gender?

The last study I read (which was Canadian) indicated that less than a quarter of one percent of the general population identified as trans.  The one trans person I knew in my entire time going through elementary and high school (at four different schools in four different cities) took an awful lot of shit from other students and occasionally teachers.  Enough that she certainly had to be VERY certain of what she was doing.

Large is a word that means different things to different people.

But to put it in the context of your number of 1/4th of one percent of the general population in Canada, about 2% of US high school students currently identify as trans* and another roughly 2% say they're not sure if they're trans or not yet. Together that would be about 600,000 teenagers who either identify as trans or are considering identifying as trans.

Or put another way you were a teenager again today, you'd likely know several dozen classmates who identify as trans instead of only one (assuming your high school was about the same size as mine).

But I agree with malcat that this is a largely separate issue from whether or not parents get access to their teenagers' medical records.

*Source: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/2019/01/24/new-federal-survey-shows-2-of-us-high-school-students-identify-as-transgender/
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 02, 2021, 04:57:28 PM
Is there a large group of young people transitioning to another gender?

The last study I read (which was Canadian) indicated that less than a quarter of one percent of the general population identified as trans.  The one trans person I knew in my entire time going through elementary and high school (at four different schools in four different cities) took an awful lot of shit from other students and occasionally teachers.  Enough that she certainly had to be VERY certain of what she was doing.

Large is a word that means different things to different people.

But to put it in the context of your number of 1/4th of one percent of the general population in Canada, about 2% of US high school students currently identify as trans* and another roughly 2% say they're not sure if they're trans or not yet. Together that would be about 600,000 teenagers who either identify as trans or are considering identifying as trans.

Or put another way you were a teenager again today, you'd likely know several dozen classmates who identify as trans instead of only one (assuming your high school was about the same size as mine).

But I agree with malcat that this is a largely separate issue from whether or not parents get access to their teenagers' medical records.

*https://www.thetrevorproject.org/2019/01/24/new-federal-survey-shows-2-of-us-high-school-students-identify-as-transgender/

Yeah, I find it super weird that this trans issue got shoehorned into this debate.

If there's a jurisdiction where kids can transition without their parents' consent, and without adequate professional counselling first, then that's a totally separate issue to debate.

But this law has NOTHING to do with parental consent. It has to do with privacy of primarily what is discussed during medical appointments. Because up to 90% of what goes into a lot of doctors' medical notes is what the patient said, what questions were asked, etc.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Roland of Gilead on April 02, 2021, 05:15:21 PM
Some good points here.  Me being without children, I didn't really understand all the factors.

It sounds like a reasonable thing in most cases but does shift some of the burden of protection from the parents to the doctor.  (which might not be a bad thing either).
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Kris on April 02, 2021, 05:24:26 PM
Is there a large group of young people transitioning to another gender?

The last study I read (which was Canadian) indicated that less than a quarter of one percent of the general population identified as trans.  The one trans person I knew in my entire time going through elementary and high school (at four different schools in four different cities) took an awful lot of shit from other students and occasionally teachers.  Enough that she certainly had to be VERY certain of what she was doing.

Large is a word that means different things to different people.

But to put it in the context of your number of 1/4th of one percent of the general population in Canada, about 2% of US high school students currently identify as trans* and another roughly 2% say they're not sure if they're trans or not yet. Together that would be about 600,000 teenagers who either identify as trans or are considering identifying as trans.

Or put another way you were a teenager again today, you'd likely know several dozen classmates who identify as trans instead of only one (assuming your high school was about the same size as mine).

But I agree with malcat that this is a largely separate issue from whether or not parents get access to their teenagers' medical records.

*https://www.thetrevorproject.org/2019/01/24/new-federal-survey-shows-2-of-us-high-school-students-identify-as-transgender/

Yeah, I find it super weird that this trans issue got shoehorned into this debate.

If there's a jurisdiction where kids can transition without their parents' consent, and without adequate professional counselling first, then that's a totally separate issue to debate.

But this law has NOTHING to do with parental consent. It has to do with privacy of primarily what is discussed during medical appointments. Because up to 90% of what goes into a lot of doctors' medical notes is what the patient said, what questions were asked, etc.

I mean trans kids are the moral panic of the hour, right? If you’re freaking out about kids today, it’s likely you’re hyper-focused on this almost to the exclusion of everything else.

It has nothing to do with the issue, but it does get a crap ton of bandwidth.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Abe on April 02, 2021, 09:01:35 PM
This is in line with accepted practice amongst most medical societies and ethicists for reasons others have highlighted. Primarily, in the US at least teenagers are felt to have autonomy over their bodies except in certain life-threatening situations (I.e. cannot refuse emergency treatment for major trauma if the parent consents). As part of this framework, they are also entitled to the right to privacy in most situations. If I were to see a teenager and they did not want the specifics of their care discussed with the parent, I would be ethically obligated to not provide details. This decision is an extension of that practice, and it has been upheld several times. The age of majority is separate from age of consent for medical treatment in many states.

Regarding payment: the responsible party does not automatically have access to a patient’s chart, under federal law. They are responsible for the bill but cannot be provided additional information about protected medical information beyond that necessary to pay said bill and be aware of the charges. I.e. they can know a CT scan was done, but they do not have authorization to request the results without the patient’s consent, unless they are the legal guardian or healthcare power of attorney. And even then they may not automatically have permission, as demonstrated in this law.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Roland of Gilead on April 03, 2021, 09:00:05 AM
I was told yesterday by a friend that children in Washington who seek care under this policy actually do not have to pay for it, regardless of the income of their parents.   The state covers the costs.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Jenny Wren on April 03, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I have kids. One is an adult now, but back when they both still went to the pediatrician it was around age 10 that I would be asked to step outside for a few minutes. There are a lot of bottom feeding, horrible people that shouldn't be parents, and this was to give the kid a bit of safety to tell the Doc about anything - from abuse to curious questions about sex - that the kid wouldn't or couldn't say to me.

These rules don't mean your kid is going to get a nose job without your consent or that the doctor is going to bill the parents for $10,000 in snake oil. It's simply to ensure the safety and health of the child. To say otherwise just goes to show how paranoid and distrusting of every single thing our society has become.

Where I grew up I could get birth control, etc long before 18- this was in the US, in the late 80s/early 90s so these aren't new regulations and laws. Good thing, too, or there would have definitely been an unwanted pregnancy. If my mother had known I even so much as kissed a boy, I would have been paddled and sent away, so I really had no one to go to except for friends and my family doctor. The visit was likely covered by my parents insurance as a normal physical/gyno appointment, but I distinctly remember buying the pills out of my own money every month so my parents wouldn't be billed. 
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 03, 2021, 11:49:58 AM


Yeah, I find it super weird that this trans issue got shoehorned into this debate.

If there's a jurisdiction where kids can transition without their parents' consent, and without adequate professional counselling first, then that's a totally separate issue to debate.

But this law has NOTHING to do with parental consent. It has to do with privacy of primarily what is discussed during medical appointments. Because up to 90% of what goes into a lot of doctors' medical notes is what the patient said, what questions were asked, etc.

My first post about trans children, minors, getting medically prescribed drugs did not explicitly state “without knowledge or consent of their parents.” I can see your confusion because I didn't make  it clear, this medical treatment is without parental involvement.  I assumed ...well. It is wrong of me to assume.

Parental concern and being shut out of medical decisions with their trans children is a core idea of Shirer’s book.

Sure that is good for some kids and for others, not so much. The right parents would bring an important context to treatment. The wrong parents might do further harm to the kid.

You said “where I practice, doctors still need parental consent for anything, unless in their professional opinion it is necessary.”

I don’t know what that means. Is there a missing “not” in that sentence? Your physicians need parental consent for treatment? Always? Sometimes? Can make exclusions?

Sure I understand that consultation is protected with privacy standards, I am asking about treatment, specifically, drugs.




Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 03, 2021, 12:00:35 PM


Yeah, I find it super weird that this trans issue got shoehorned into this debate.

If there's a jurisdiction where kids can transition without their parents' consent, and without adequate professional counselling first, then that's a totally separate issue to debate.

But this law has NOTHING to do with parental consent. It has to do with privacy of primarily what is discussed during medical appointments. Because up to 90% of what goes into a lot of doctors' medical notes is what the patient said, what questions were asked, etc.

My first post about trans children, minors, getting medically prescribed drugs did not explicitly state “without knowledge or consent of their parents.” I can see your confusion because I didn't make  it clear, this medical treatment is without parental involvement.  I assumed ...well. It is wrong of me to assume.

Parental concern and being shut out of medical decisions with their trans children is a core idea of Shirer’s book.

Sure that is good for some kids and for others, not so much. The right parents would bring an important context to treatment. The wrong parents might do further harm to the kid.

You said “where I practice, doctors still need parental consent for anything, unless in their professional opinion it is necessary.”

I don’t know what that means. Is there a missing “not” in that sentence? Your physicians need parental consent for treatment? Always? Sometimes? Can make exclusions?

Sure I understand that consultation is protected with privacy standards, I am asking about treatment, specifically, drugs.

To clarify: I always need to have parental consent for treatment of a minor unless I deem it necessary to withhold that information for the sake of the child. The burden for me to withhold that information is very high and opens me up to litigation.

So yes, I can make an exception, but there's no fucking way I'm doing so without consulting a lawyer first. I will not do it lightly. That's just my jurisdiction and my area of treatment though. I very rarely feel the need to withhold consent from a parent, but I very frequently discuss things with teens that they don't want shared. There's a HUGE difference.

As for this law, it has NOTHING to do with consent. It only has to do with medical records. Those are completely separate issues. That's why I find it so weird that you are even asking about treating trans kids without their parents' knowledge because what has been posted has nothing to do with that.

Issues of privacy of records and issues of treatment consent are entirely separate issues. That's why it seems that you are shoehorning your trans concerns into a debate where what you are concerned about isn't even relevant to the rule in question.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 03, 2021, 12:39:48 PM


Yeah, I find it super weird that this trans issue got shoehorned into this debate.

If there's a jurisdiction where kids can transition without their parents' consent, and without adequate professional counselling first, then that's a totally separate issue to debate.

But this law has NOTHING to do with parental consent. It has to do with privacy of primarily what is discussed during medical appointments. Because up to 90% of what goes into a lot of doctors' medical notes is what the patient said, what questions were asked, etc.

My first post about trans children, minors, getting medically prescribed drugs did not explicitly state “without knowledge or consent of their parents.” I can see your confusion because I didn't make  it clear, this medical treatment is without parental involvement.  I assumed ...well. It is wrong of me to assume.

Parental concern and being shut out of medical decisions with their trans children is a core idea of Shirer’s book.

Sure that is good for some kids and for others, not so much. The right parents would bring an important context to treatment. The wrong parents might do further harm to the kid.

You said “where I practice, doctors still need parental consent for anything, unless in their professional opinion it is necessary.”

I don’t know what that means. Is there a missing “not” in that sentence? Your physicians need parental consent for treatment? Always? Sometimes? Can make exclusions?

Sure I understand that consultation is protected with privacy standards, I am asking about treatment, specifically, drugs.

To clarify: I always need to have parental consent for treatment of a minor unless I deem it necessary to withhold that information for the sake of the child. The burden for me to withhold that information is very high and opens me up to litigation.

So yes, I can make an exception, but there's no fucking way I'm doing so without consulting a lawyer first. I will not do it lightly. That's just my jurisdiction and my area of treatment though. I very rarely feel the need to withhold consent from a parent, but I very frequently discuss things with teens that they don't want shared. There's a HUGE difference.

As for this law, it has NOTHING to do with consent. It only has to do with medical records. Those are completely separate issues. That's why I find it so weird that you are even asking about treating trans kids without their parents' knowledge because what has been posted has nothing to do with that.

Issues of privacy of records and issues of treatment consent are entirely separate issues. That's why it seems that you are shoehorning your trans concerns into a debate where what you are concerned about isn't even relevant to the rule in question.

I sincerely  do not understand how the two issues are entirely separate. Entirely? No, I can’t grok it. But if this thread covers only and specifically and not even possible anything other than medical records, and it is not ok to discuss related issues, ok then. Thread police have spoken.

I understand that consultation, what the child talks about with his/her physician, is confidential. That is always confidential. Got it. It is talking, it is health advice. There is  no surgery no drugs no hands on treatment. Those interactions with kids and dr are protected by privacy law.

I do not understand how treatment—surgery, drug administration, etc. can take place in absence of parental knowledge but requiring their consent. This concept is confounding to me. A parent is expected to sign off on surgery without being told what the surgery is for? How does that even work?

I guess I wont know because my question is out of line and off topic.

Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: MudPuppy on April 03, 2021, 02:33:31 PM
Seeing the patient’s health record would show you what the patient talked with the provider about. Treatment is an entirely separate issue. All this does is keep the parent out of the chart once the patient is 13. You’re panicking over nothing.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Wrenchturner on April 03, 2021, 02:45:45 PM
I'm not so convinced that someone can "pause puberty".  And there are concerns about fertility and bone density consequences with regard to puberty blockers.  Parents definitely make impositions on a child's identity all the time.  This is a tough one.

Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 03, 2021, 02:50:59 PM


Yeah, I find it super weird that this trans issue got shoehorned into this debate.

If there's a jurisdiction where kids can transition without their parents' consent, and without adequate professional counselling first, then that's a totally separate issue to debate.

But this law has NOTHING to do with parental consent. It has to do with privacy of primarily what is discussed during medical appointments. Because up to 90% of what goes into a lot of doctors' medical notes is what the patient said, what questions were asked, etc.

My first post about trans children, minors, getting medically prescribed drugs did not explicitly state “without knowledge or consent of their parents.” I can see your confusion because I didn't make  it clear, this medical treatment is without parental involvement.  I assumed ...well. It is wrong of me to assume.

Parental concern and being shut out of medical decisions with their trans children is a core idea of Shirer’s book.

Sure that is good for some kids and for others, not so much. The right parents would bring an important context to treatment. The wrong parents might do further harm to the kid.

You said “where I practice, doctors still need parental consent for anything, unless in their professional opinion it is necessary.”

I don’t know what that means. Is there a missing “not” in that sentence? Your physicians need parental consent for treatment? Always? Sometimes? Can make exclusions?

Sure I understand that consultation is protected with privacy standards, I am asking about treatment, specifically, drugs.

To clarify: I always need to have parental consent for treatment of a minor unless I deem it necessary to withhold that information for the sake of the child. The burden for me to withhold that information is very high and opens me up to litigation.

So yes, I can make an exception, but there's no fucking way I'm doing so without consulting a lawyer first. I will not do it lightly. That's just my jurisdiction and my area of treatment though. I very rarely feel the need to withhold consent from a parent, but I very frequently discuss things with teens that they don't want shared. There's a HUGE difference.

As for this law, it has NOTHING to do with consent. It only has to do with medical records. Those are completely separate issues. That's why I find it so weird that you are even asking about treating trans kids without their parents' knowledge because what has been posted has nothing to do with that.

Issues of privacy of records and issues of treatment consent are entirely separate issues. That's why it seems that you are shoehorning your trans concerns into a debate where what you are concerned about isn't even relevant to the rule in question.

I sincerely  do not understand how the two issues are entirely separate. Entirely? No, I can’t grok it. But if this thread covers only and specifically and not even possible anything other than medical records, and it is not ok to discuss related issues, ok then. Thread police have spoken.

I understand that consultation, what the child talks about with his/her physician, is confidential. That is always confidential. Got it. It is talking, it is health advice. There is  no surgery no drugs no hands on treatment. Those interactions with kids and dr are protected by privacy law.

I do not understand how treatment—surgery, drug administration, etc. can take place in absence of parental knowledge but requiring their consent. This concept is confounding to me. A parent is expected to sign off on surgery without being told what the surgery is for? How does that even work?

I guess I wont know because my question is out of line and off topic.

I really don't understand what you aren't understanding, you keep talking about treatment when this law is about access to records.

If a teenager comes to me for an appointment, I have to ask their parents for consent for me to do anything to them. Their parents have full knowledge of any tests or treatment. However, they do not have access to the notes that I wrote about the appointment, which may contain a lot of information that is private and not strictly necessary for the parents to know for the sake of consent.

The medical records being accessible has NOTHING to do with whether or not I require consent to treat the teen. The quote from the OP only addresses access to the records of the appointments and has nothing to do with whether or not consent was needed for treatment in the first place.

So if a teen girl comes in with oral herpes and requires a valtrex prescription, I have to ask her parents for consent to prescribe it, but I don't need to tell them that she's worried she got it from performing oral sex. I do have to write in my note about her oral sex concern and what I explained to her, but her parents can't read that note. They just know she has a cold sore and that she's getting a prescription to help it resolve quicker.

Most of my patients never access their own notes, much less the notes of their young children. I don't even legally have to show any patient their own notes unless they submit a written request at least 24 hours in advance. We didn't have online records access like some places do now.

So you can have laws that allow treatment to be done without parental consent, but that's an entirely separate legal issue.

I hope that's somehow more clear???
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: MudPuppy on April 03, 2021, 03:24:36 PM
I'm not so convinced that someone can "pause puberty".  And there are concerns about fertility and bone density consequences with regard to puberty blockers.  Parents definitely make impositions on a child's identity all the time.  This is a tough one.

It’s done as treatment for precocious puberty in cisgendered children all the time, and considered relatively safe.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: MilesTeg on April 03, 2021, 03:27:16 PM
I think a lot of the folks who are against this are either:

(1) really good, but naieve, people who can't understand why a teenager should have privacy from their parent/guardian.

(2) really bad people who are the kind of people that this law is specifically made to protect teens from.

And this is a problem that is not just about medical information. When I was a teen one of my friend's family were jehovah's witnesses. When they tried to force my friend to drop out of school when it "was time for girls to focus on being wives and mothers" she had to get legally emancipated to prevent that abuse.

Rolling back around to the topic, a doctor is the type of person an abused child might reach out to to get the help they need to extricate themselves from a bad situation, so protecting the conversations they may have with them is paramount.

Parents don't own their children. The law MUST protect children from parents that think they do and abuse their legal authority.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: TrMama on April 03, 2021, 06:44:47 PM
We have a very similar setup in BC. It's called mature minor consent and it starts at 11. Since my kids are 12 and 14 it comes up every time they get a covid test. When I call to make an appointment for testing, I have to hand the phone to the teen for them to give their consent to be tested. Then when it's time to access their results I simply give the tester my cell# instead of the teen's #. I do this with the consent of the teens. Their take is that they don't want to have to take on the boring administration of their health info. They prefer for me to make the appointments, remind them the day of, drive them there and deal with any resulting insurance admin. In the words of my 12yo, "Mom, I still sleep with a teddy bear. I shouldn't be managing my own health info." Although after reading some of the stuff here I'll make sure they have all their doctors and dentists numbers added to the contacts list on their phones just in case.

Mature minor consent is also relevant during school vaccinations. Regardless of what I write on the consent form that goes out before the scheduled vaccination day, the teens can either decline a vaccination I signed the consent form for, or they can consent to receive a vaccine if I tried to prevent them from getting it. The end result is that we have lots of conversations in our house about how important it is to get medical treatment (vaccines, medicine, surgery, etc) when it's in your best interest even if the procedure itself is unpleasant.

I'm finding the side discussion on transgender teens, by people who don't even have kids, to be very weird. Perhaps I should postulate on how single people should run their lives and what medical treatments they're entitled to?
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 03, 2021, 06:45:13 PM
Seeing the patient’s health record would show you what the patient talked with the provider about. Treatment is an entirely separate issue. All this does is keep the parent out of the chart once the patient is 13. You’re panicking over nothing.
I am not panicking. What a silly emotion to ascribe to me. Keeping parents out of a minor’s medical chart/records along with boyfriends, girlfriends, social workers, teachers, interested neighbors, internet strangers, etc. seems fine to me.

There are other things related to minors and healthcare that we’re not allowed to talk about in this thread that may not always be so great.  I didn’t understand that even though posts 2, 5, 8 and probably others do. It was probably the “ phalloplasty” surgery comment that triggered my initial wrong-speak.

But OK not allowed. Got it.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 03, 2021, 07:13:07 PM
Seeing the patient’s health record would show you what the patient talked with the provider about. Treatment is an entirely separate issue. All this does is keep the parent out of the chart once the patient is 13. You’re panicking over nothing.
I am not panicking. What a silly emotion to ascribe to me. Keeping parents out of a minor’s medical chart/records along with boyfriends, girlfriends, social workers, teachers, interested neighbors, internet strangers, etc. seems fine to me.

There are other things related to minors and healthcare that we’re not allowed to talk about in this thread that may not always be so great.  I didn’t understand that even though posts 2, 5, 8 and probably others do. It was probably the “ phalloplasty” surgery comment that triggered my initial wrong-speak.

But OK not allowed. Got it.

It's not that you can't talk about it, it's that a perfectly valid debate about accessing records got railroaded into a debate about a book you read about kids transitioning even though that had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

In my first reply to you, I specifically said that that was another valid debate to have, but that it wasn't the same issue. Then you were confused how it wasn't the same issue, so I explained further.

If you want to have a full on debate about something that has nothing to do with the original question of the thread, go ahead, you wouldn't be the first person to derail a thread, and if others would rather talk about that than the actual subject matter of the OP, then by all means. Other threads of serious subject matter have been derailed into a series of puns about cheese. I'm not going to stop you.

I just wanted it made clear what the rule in the OP is about and what is ISN'T about. If people are done with that subject matter, by all means, have a lengthy discussion about a different matter if that's what you and others want to discuss.

All I wanted was clarity. I don't like things being presented as something they aren't. It makes me batty.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: MudPuppy on April 03, 2021, 09:55:53 PM
Catastrophizing then? A rather logical regulation gets somehow wound up in major surgeries because you read a book by someone who was panicking.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Morning Glory on April 03, 2021, 10:09:21 PM
Catastrophizing then? A rather logical regulation gets somehow wound up in major surgeries because you read a book by someone who was panicking.

The conservative outrage machine is very efficient.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Zamboni on April 05, 2021, 05:19:07 PM
Let's put reproductive and gender rights aside for a moment. Y'all are in for a rude awakening if your child of any age ever has what personnel at a hospital thinks is a life threatening condition. Guess what: in most states, as a parent you have no rights to refuse treatment or decide upon the course of treatment. These laws were often passed after some children died when parents denied permission to give a basic blood transfusion the child needed after a car crash, for example.

I found this out when a hospital miscalculated my newborn son's weight at the last weigh in right before he was supposed to be discharged. They decided he had lost a bunch of weight and need to be hospitalized. We were like "you are crazy, he is fine, we are taking him home." and they were like "Oh, no, he is not going anywhere, you have no right to make the decision to take him home, and we are about to give him an IV and hook him up to these machines." It was only through a calm discussion that I figured out that the nurse had made a mistake converting grams to pounds, I know the conversion formulas so I did the math in my head and asked her to check again, and they eventually relented and released him . . . but they never apologized or admitted they made a mistake, though.

It was very eye opening. Parents really have few rights in this area. And, honestly, there are plenty of circumstances where parents absolutely should lose their rights to decide medical treatment for their children, so I can't even argue about the laws. Because some people are fucking morons. And those people ruin it for the rest of us.

Your control over the medical future of your child is an illusion.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Morning Glory on April 05, 2021, 06:00:40 PM
@Zamboni I'm sorry that happened to you. I agree that they should have apologized for the mistake. Those laws do have a reason though. So many moms get so caught up in the benefits of breastfeeding that they fail to notice that their child is starving. New parents are sleep deprived and so obsessed over doing the right thing that they simply can't process when it isn't working. Formula isn't poison.

And I'm another thread derailer. Lol
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Zamboni on April 05, 2021, 07:46:41 PM
Ah, yes, that would make sense. They clearly had a "baby is losing weight, can't leave" drill and that didn't occur to me.

Back on topic, it seems to me that parents who don't let their children have any privacy are creating people who will have major, major challenges enforcing normal boundaries when they become adults.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Abe on April 05, 2021, 08:04:14 PM
Ah, yes, that would make sense. They clearly had a "baby is losing weight, can't leave" drill and that didn't occur to me.

Back on topic, it seems to me that parents who don't let their children have any privacy are creating people who will have major, major challenges enforcing normal boundaries when they become adults.

Yeah, hospitals have a lot of automatic safeguards for newborns. Turns out most people have no idea how to take care of one (including trained healthcare personnel like myself), so it helps to have some criteria. Obviously there should be some kind of re-evaluation to make sure the data isn't incorrectly entered. I had a message recently from my medical record system sent me an alert that an (adult) patient of mine had lost 3" of height in a week, then had to fill out a note explaining they haven't suddenly lost a vertebra and it was an error (it wasn't really clear what the note was for, so that's what I put).

On an aside: discharges are super annoying in training hospitals because the attending physician or surgeon has to confirm (by law) that it's ok to send someone home that day. So if something changes, it goes from the nurse to the intern to the senior resident to the fellow to the attending, then back down. Most serious errors are made during admission to and discharge from the hospital, so as a result many safeguards are in place. Basically it is better to inconvenience a lot of people than have someone go home and die. I explain this in clinic to my patients so they don't get pissed and know what is going on. This is made especially hard with COVID since visitors haven't been allowed on the hospital floors for over a year now.

Derailing this thread is fun.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Morning Glory on April 05, 2021, 09:50:51 PM
Ah, yes, that would make sense. They clearly had a "baby is losing weight, can't leave" drill and that didn't occur to me.

Back on topic, it seems to me that parents who don't let their children have any privacy are creating people who will have major, major challenges enforcing normal boundaries when they become adults.

Yeah, hospitals have a lot of automatic safeguards for newborns. Turns out most people have no idea how to take care of one (including trained healthcare personnel like myself), so it helps to have some criteria. Obviously there should be some kind of re-evaluation to make sure the data isn't incorrectly entered. I had a message recently from my medical record system sent me an alert that an (adult) patient of mine had lost 3" of height in a week, then had to fill out a note explaining they haven't suddenly lost a vertebra and it was an error (it wasn't really clear what the note was for, so that's what I put).

On an aside: discharges are super annoying in training hospitals because the attending physician or surgeon has to confirm (by law) that it's ok to send someone home that day. So if something changes, it goes from the nurse to the intern to the senior resident to the fellow to the attending, then back down. Most serious errors are made during admission to and discharge from the hospital, so as a result many safeguards are in place. Basically it is better to inconvenience a lot of people than have someone go home and die. I explain this in clinic to my patients so they don't get pissed and know what is going on. This is made especially hard with COVID since visitors haven't been allowed on the hospital floors for over a year now.

Derailing this thread is fun.

Haha I was a floor nurse when I had my first baby. First day back from mat leave was July 1.  🤣

You are a saint for telling people that discharge can take a while. They really have unrealistic expectations.

Both my babies were behind on their weight at the 2 month checkup and I had no idea, I just thought they were fussy. We all slept a lot better once we started supplementing with formula.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: jeninco on April 06, 2021, 11:42:59 AM
To drag this back on topic (kinda...), as @Malcat has pointed out there are a whole bunch of good reasons why adolescents (and even tweens) should be able -- and expected-- to have private conversations with their health care people. When our pediatrician retired (when my boys were perhaps ... 13 and 16?) one of the criteria we used for "appropriate teenager appointment" was that I wasn't in there for the majority of it. In fact, we knew we had a winner for a PCP when the PA came out from his appointment to ask me for permission to do a liver screening "for baseline data before he goes off to college." 

I thought "very well played, since he obviously told you how much he's drinking, but you can't tell me", but simply said "yes, sure."

For some kids, there's the added benefit of getting practice raising concerns and asking questions of a health care professional in a somewhat more supportive environment, before they turn 21 and have to manage things entirely by themselves.

And we live in a bastion of liberal-ness, but there are still plenty of high school aged girls (largely, but not entirely) who don't want their parents to know they need birth control. Or STD treatment. Or counseling. Or ....
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on April 06, 2021, 11:54:55 AM

Teens are too frequently abused or kicked out of their homes because of reproductive health/sexual issues (happened to my cousin), or parents may refuse to take a child to a clinic to have such issues treated.



OtherJen, your post of this execrable,  parental maltreatment of their minor children is among the reasons I support medical privacy for them.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: honeybbq on April 06, 2021, 01:23:26 PM
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.

The years of 13 to 18 are so problematic with health and other issues.

But it sure gives me pause to know that 13 year olds can  get body changing hormones, testosterone and etc, with little to no therapeutic intervention or requirement in some places. These hormones do permanent damage and are not reversible when the teen decides to “de transition.”

What on Earth?
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 07, 2021, 07:41:47 AM
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: EvenSteven on April 07, 2021, 08:01:37 AM
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.

Bah, you're Canadian.  You don't appreciate Target and thus cannot appreciate the vital gender-normative role its bathrooms play in 'Murican society.

I feel the need to remind everyone that Jordan Peterson is, in fact, Canadian.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Jenny Wren on April 07, 2021, 08:07:45 AM
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 07, 2021, 08:12:11 AM
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.

Bah, you're Canadian.  You don't appreciate Target and thus cannot appreciate the vital gender-normative role its bathrooms play in 'Murican society.

I feel the need to remind everyone that Jordan Peterson is, in fact, Canadian.

He's on the list.
- Jordan Peterson
- Ted Cruz
- Nickelback
- Celine Dion

Sorry world!  Our bad.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Morning Glory on April 07, 2021, 08:44:14 AM
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

+1,000,000
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Metalcat on April 07, 2021, 10:12:44 AM
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

Slow clap
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: CodingHare on April 07, 2021, 01:00:33 PM
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

Said so well!
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Kris on April 07, 2021, 04:34:34 PM
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

I could not love this post more.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Abe on April 07, 2021, 08:47:46 PM
I guess it's not surprising that busy-bodies would be against privacy for others. The whole post-hormone-taking regret thing seems like anecdata rather than real data. We'd need something stronger to suggest why teenagers shouldn't have an automatic right to privacy.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: jeninco on April 07, 2021, 09:48:34 PM
I guess it's not surprising that busy-bodies would be against privacy for others. The whole post-hormone-taking regret thing seems like anecdata rather than real data. We'd need something stronger to suggest why teenagers shouldn't have an automatic right to privacy.

Also, since it's easy to argue that every (or nearly every) teenager should have an opportunity to have a private conversation with a doctor, even in the unlikely event that small numbers of transitioning kids change their minds later, is that worth limiting something important for most everyone?
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: OtherJen on April 08, 2021, 08:59:58 AM
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill) (https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/546995-new-nc-bill-would-require-schools-to-tell-parents-if-a)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Jenny Wren on April 08, 2021, 09:25:06 AM
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill) (https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/546995-new-nc-bill-would-require-schools-to-tell-parents-if-a)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

"Parents would also be allowed to withhold mental health services and other treatments and activities that “are designed and intended to form their child's conceptions of sex and gender or to treat gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.”

The bill also legalizes therapies and counseling based on “conscience or religious belief.”"

This makes it 10 times more dangerous. Not only are parents given the right to know everything, they are also given the right to completely and utterly deny treatment. Think of how messed up this is -- "We are going to draft a law that forces us to acknowledge that your child may have some issues they are working through, but in the same law we are providing you, the responsible party that decided to have a child and take on all that child rearing entails, the right to completely ignore your responsibility of care. Why? Because children = property in our great state. And let's put in a sprinkle of God, too, cuz why not?"

These chodes give their huntin' hounds more rights than their own offspring. May they all rot in this life and the next.

Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Tigerpine on April 08, 2021, 09:29:59 AM
My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?
Gender association with the color pink is actually quite interesting.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/12/health/colorscope-pink-boy-girl-gender/index.html
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: neophyte on April 08, 2021, 10:23:41 AM
My mother made it very clear that I was not to recieve the HPV vaccine while on my parent's insurance. Because sex. I was supposed to be a virgin and marry a virgin.  That was the only acceptable answer and if I wanted them to help support me through college I would follow the rules. I'm glad I was able to talk my doctor into giving it to me when I was 29 or 30 even though it wasn't FDA approved for people over 26 at that point.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: OtherJen on April 08, 2021, 01:07:07 PM
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill) (https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/546995-new-nc-bill-would-require-schools-to-tell-parents-if-a)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

"Parents would also be allowed to withhold mental health services and other treatments and activities that “are designed and intended to form their child's conceptions of sex and gender or to treat gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.”

The bill also legalizes therapies and counseling based on “conscience or religious belief.”"

This makes it 10 times more dangerous. Not only are parents given the right to know everything, they are also given the right to completely and utterly deny treatment. Think of how messed up this is -- "We are going to draft a law that forces us to acknowledge that your child may have some issues they are working through, but in the same law we are providing you, the responsible party that decided to have a child and take on all that child rearing entails, the right to completely ignore your responsibility of care. Why? Because children = property in our great state. And let's put in a sprinkle of God, too, cuz why not?"

These chodes give their huntin' hounds more rights than their own offspring. May they all rot in this life and the next.

Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?

If I were an LGBTQ teen in that state who had any concerns whatsoever that my parents would be less than understanding of my situation, I would probably beg any out-of-state relative I could remotely tolerate to let me live with them until I was 18. This law will cause child abuse to skyrocket. It's horrifying.

I'm an atheist, in no small part because of having been raised with too much bullshit like this, but sometimes I do wish that Jesus was real and would, in fact, meet these asshats at the pearly gates to inform them that he has no fucking clue who they are, because they deliberately did the opposite of feed the hungry, tend the sick, and protect the helpless during their lives. They used their given and entrusted power to hurt people in Jesus's name. If Jesus existed, I doubt he'd appreciate that.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: iris lily on April 09, 2021, 12:19:00 PM


...Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?

Exactly.

I would want my son, we’re he like yours, to recognize his color preference  as an expression of his individual uniqueness. I would not want him to associate that preference with being of the opposite sex. Also I would want him to enjoy his pink phase and be open to subsequent phases of enjoying yellow, or purple, or gold and silver. Or maybe enjoying pink forever as his favorite color.



Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Jenny Wren on April 09, 2021, 01:01:54 PM


...Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?

Exactly.

I would want my son, we’re he like yours, to recognize his color preference  as an expression of his individual uniqueness. I would not want him to associate that preference with being of the opposite sex. Also I would want him to enjoy his pink phase and be open to subsequent phases of enjoying yellow, or purple, or gold and silver. Or maybe enjoying pink forever as his favorite color.

He's an adult and pink is still his favorite and most worn color. He also loves florals - roses mainly. His students love his colorful wardrobe, but they are young enough that societal gender norms are still a bit fluid with them. :)

The phases thing did prick me, though, whether intended or not. You see, I've raised my kids to be successful, well adjusted, and informed adults. I know how phases work and I know where boundaries need to lie. I also never dismissed anything that mattered to my children as "just a phase." It may have been, but it was important and sometimes life altering to them at the time. I have experience in education and outreach, as well as a degree in biology. I have likely been a mandated reporter and a confidant for more adolescents than many people have talked to in their life. I have worked through the entire process of therapy and transitioning at my spouse's side. Do you (general you) know what the only successful medical cure for gender dysphoria is? It's transitioning. Gender dysphoria therapy is to help address the years of trauma, abuse, PTSD, depression, and self harming behavior that is a direct result of parental and societal pressures on those that don't fit into the peak of the bell curve. These parents want to keep their kids out of traditional therapy not because they believe that therapy will make their kid trans, gay, or whatever, but because deep down inside they fear that it may force them to come to terms with the fact that they aren't a very good person.

I didn't read a book. I lived through all of this, I did the hard work, and I cried the tears of both heartache and joy. I've held the hand of a gender questioning kid that was kicked out by their parents -- the dad a community leader in their church -- while we waited for the the nurse to bring the rape kit. I held the hand of a child whose grandparent shaved their long hair off with a straight razor, cutting up their scalp, because it made them a "pansy."

If gender questioning is just a phase, then it's a phase that needs a safe space, away from sometimes less than understanding parents, to be worked through. I agree that therapy is often necessary. Not because the child is questioning their gender, but because of the dysfunctional family setting that makes gender questions a problem.

The thing is, that there are plenty of kids that questioned their gender and even transitioned that aren't making the news or having books written about them. They had loving, supportive families and were able to work through these complicated feelings as easily as most of us navigate gender normative puberty. They grew into well adjusted adults because they had a support network, not because someone tried to stop them "for their own good" from exploring their gender or sexuality. 


Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: jeninco on April 11, 2021, 03:41:46 PM
^
 |
I (heart) this message from @Botany Bae , and wish you and your family all the love in the world!

I'm a high school volunteer tutor (among other things), and my kids are almost both out of HS (at 17 and 20), but I'm intending to keep volunteering, and I think there's a better than even chance we're going to wind up with a temporary or permanent foster kid who's been kicked out by their parents (courtesy of counselors who know us), even here in super-liberal Hippistan.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Jenny Wren on April 11, 2021, 06:40:22 PM
^
 |
I (heart) this message from @Botany Bae , and wish you and your family all the love in the world!

I'm a high school volunteer tutor (among other things), and my kids are almost both out of HS (at 17 and 20), but I'm intending to keep volunteering, and I think there's a better than even chance we're going to wind up with a temporary or permanent foster kid who's been kicked out by their parents (courtesy of counselors who know us), even here in super-liberal Hippistan.

Thank you for your well wishes :)

Thank you for being willing to step up for that kid! Something happened similar to that in my family. My dad was your typical well spoken, congenial southern gentleman. If he were alive in 2016, he would have voted Trump because he had begun his trip down the FOX rabbit hole. He was not a supporter of gay marriage rights, but he wasn't hateful and he kept any moral judgments he had to himself. What he was, though, was a supporter of family -- which came first and foremost over everything else. When my little sis was in high school one of her friends came out, and was promptly kicked out of his home. My dad was aghast that someone would cut family ties over something as trivial as sexual orientation. He took the boy in and made him part of our family. It was a huge deal at the time, as I guess the kid's parents tried to intervene because they had it in their head that the kid would "turn straight" if he saw how tough it was to be on the street. My father was a large and persuasive man, gifted with a slow molasses drawl, a huge vocabulary, and the belief that when all else fails it's okay for might to make right. My sis and the kid (now in his 30s and doing quite well) are still best friends, and all in all a painful adolescence seems to have had a happy ending.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: Just Joe on April 12, 2021, 02:59:17 PM
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill) (https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/546995-new-nc-bill-would-require-schools-to-tell-parents-if-a)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

Isn't it great that all the GOP has to contribute lately is anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. My own state likes to do important things like re-affirm the bible is the state book and chase other Christian first topics.

Good grief the GOP is useless!
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: OtherJen on April 12, 2021, 05:15:02 PM
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill) (https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/546995-new-nc-bill-would-require-schools-to-tell-parents-if-a)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

Isn't it great that all the GOP has to contribute lately is anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. My own state likes to do important things like re-affirm the bible is the state book and chase other Christian first topics.

Good grief the GOP is useless!

Yep. Here in Michigan, we're the US COVID hotspot. Our GOP legislature stripped the Democrat governor of her powers to shut things down before the hospital systems collapse. They're doing fuck-all in terms of public health measures. Instead, they're trying to overturn the expanded voter access that we the people voted in by a large margin in 2018 as an amendment to the state constitution. It won't surprise me at all if their next measure is to hurt LGBTQ people. Republican leaders are terrible people. I can't tell if the rank and file voters are just as bad or clueless.
Title: Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 13, 2021, 08:19:49 AM
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill) (https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/546995-new-nc-bill-would-require-schools-to-tell-parents-if-a)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

Isn't it great that all the GOP has to contribute lately is anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. My own state likes to do important things like re-affirm the bible is the state book and chase other Christian first topics.

Good grief the GOP is useless!

Yep. Here in Michigan, we're the US COVID hotspot. Our GOP legislature stripped the Democrat governor of her powers to shut things down before the hospital systems collapse. They're doing fuck-all in terms of public health measures. Instead, they're trying to overturn the expanded voter access that we the people voted in by a large margin in 2018 as an amendment to the state constitution. It won't surprise me at all if their next measure is to hurt LGBTQ people. Republican leaders are terrible people. I can't tell if the rank and file voters are just as bad or clueless.

Rank and file Republicans overwhelmingly support their leaders.  That should give you some hints.