Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 31092 times)

PKFFW

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #500 on: January 03, 2018, 09:27:23 PM »
As I wrote in my journal, one time in college, two girls infested with the Jezebel spirit tried to use their destructive sexual magic on me at the same time. Luckily, I Forrest Gumped my way out of that situation before they claimed my soul for Satan. Thank God, they didn't get to me. I'd probably have ended up the subject of an article in New York magazine.
I've searched high and low for a couple of Jezebel spirit infested women for just such an experience of destructive sexual magic, all to no avail. :(

SecondBreakfast

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #501 on: January 04, 2018, 03:51:27 AM »
Dodging the destructive sexual magics of the Jezebel spirit to trigger the libs itt

A Definite Beta Guy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #502 on: January 04, 2018, 09:29:49 AM »
How does this rule out Trump's election being the catalyst that brought about the change?

You might as well say it's really the Civil Rights Act in 1964 that was the watershed movement. After all, that's actually what entitles everyone to a non-hostile workplace.
Quote from: Jrr85
Exactly.  A full five years before Trump became President, but suddenly it became effective w/r/t hollywood, the Media, and politicians after president Trump became president.  Certainly doesn't rule out that it's a coincidence, but you are inadvertently arguing against yourself.  If you say things out loud before you type them, you could greatly reduce the likelihood of looking illogical.
Jrr85 claimed "If Hillary had won, you would have had the entire left, which includes the media and hollywood (which are apparently particularly hellish places for women as far as the developed world), actively ignoring the sexual abuse within their midst because they wouldn't want to negatively impact Hillary".

The "left", along with many from the middle and the right I'm sure, were actively trying to bring to light the issue a full 5 years before Trump was elected.  They were doing so during the entire period Hillary campaigned both in the primaries and the general election.  They were demonstrably NOT ignoring the sexual abuse.  But lets not let facts get the way of the narrative of MAGA hey?

The fact you two were not aware of the movement to bring to light this issue until Trump started boasting about sexually harassing women says a lot about you both.  The fact you seem to believe it should be the perpetrator of such acts that should be lauded as the catalyst for change says even more.  I imagine you would feel differently about Trump and other such creatures if it were your daughter/wife/sister/mother that was the one being grabbed by the pussy.  I rather doubt you would waxing lyrical about Trump being "a good choice to combat the victimization of women" in that situation.

The Civil Rights Act was trying to stop hostile workplaces a full 40 years before #MeToo. The fact that you are not aware of basic law until #MeToo started says a lot about you.

Really, the idea that Trump getting elected provided a catalyst to make sexual harassment a much bigger issue is NOT far-fetched. I'm not even saying I agree with: I'm saying your dismissal of it out of hand is stupid, and your insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is "ignorant" is intellectual arrogance bordering on the obscene.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2779
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #503 on: January 04, 2018, 09:41:48 AM »

The Civil Rights Act was trying to stop hostile workplaces a full 40 years before #MeToo. The fact that you are not aware of basic law until #MeToo started says a lot about you.
I don't think anyone has ever said that #MeToo was about changing the existing law.  It's about ensuring that the existing law can be applied the way that was intended but which has not happened to date because of prevailing social attitudes about men, women, sexuality, power and violence.

One of the first lessons any lawyer learns is that there is a gap between the words of the law and the practice of the law.  That gap is biggest where it involves issues of power and powerlessness, as sexual violence does.  The recent scandals about men using their positions of power to perpetrate sexual abuse, which chimes with the #MeToo movement, looks like it might be a significant move towards reducing that gap (although I wouldn't be surprised if there was some slippage I'm hoping the baseline has been moved at least a little).
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Dabnasty

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #504 on: January 04, 2018, 10:57:13 AM »
How does this rule out Trump's election being the catalyst that brought about the change?

You might as well say it's really the Civil Rights Act in 1964 that was the watershed movement. After all, that's actually what entitles everyone to a non-hostile workplace.
Quote from: Jrr85
Exactly.  A full five years before Trump became President, but suddenly it became effective w/r/t hollywood, the Media, and politicians after president Trump became president.  Certainly doesn't rule out that it's a coincidence, but you are inadvertently arguing against yourself.  If you say things out loud before you type them, you could greatly reduce the likelihood of looking illogical.
Jrr85 claimed "If Hillary had won, you would have had the entire left, which includes the media and hollywood (which are apparently particularly hellish places for women as far as the developed world), actively ignoring the sexual abuse within their midst because they wouldn't want to negatively impact Hillary".

The "left", along with many from the middle and the right I'm sure, were actively trying to bring to light the issue a full 5 years before Trump was elected.  They were doing so during the entire period Hillary campaigned both in the primaries and the general election.  They were demonstrably NOT ignoring the sexual abuse.  But lets not let facts get the way of the narrative of MAGA hey?

The fact you two were not aware of the movement to bring to light this issue until Trump started boasting about sexually harassing women says a lot about you both.  The fact you seem to believe it should be the perpetrator of such acts that should be lauded as the catalyst for change says even more.  I imagine you would feel differently about Trump and other such creatures if it were your daughter/wife/sister/mother that was the one being grabbed by the pussy.  I rather doubt you would waxing lyrical about Trump being "a good choice to combat the victimization of women" in that situation.

The Civil Rights Act was trying to stop hostile workplaces a full 40 years before #MeToo. The fact that you are not aware of basic law until #MeToo started says a lot about you.

Really, the idea that Trump getting elected provided a catalyst to make sexual harassment a much bigger issue is NOT far-fetched. I'm not even saying I agree with: I'm saying your dismissal of it out of hand is stupid, and your insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is "ignorant" is intellectual arrogance bordering on the obscene.

I think we all agree that his election (along with some other events) were likely a catalyst; the issue I and some others take with Jrr85's wording is that he makes it sound like Trump did a good thing. Which is actually a very Trumpish thing to do, take credit for good outcomes regardless of his own role as the antagonist to women.

Also Jrr85, your assumption that liberal media would have actively kept these issues out of the spotlight had Hillary been elected as a way to protect her is mostly unfounded. As has been mentioned, these issues were already on the radar and being talked about. I can find hundreds if not thousands of articles on the topic discussing allegations against celebrities, republicans, and democrats prior to November 8 2016 from sources that you would consider liberal media.

Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 221
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #505 on: January 04, 2018, 12:31:48 PM »
I think electing the first woman president would have been a better watershed moment for women's rights than electing a groper.  The emergence of a women-led resistance to this presidency is a silver lining, but saying we should credit Trump for it is like saying we should thank cancer for the invention of taxol.

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1229
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #506 on: January 04, 2018, 12:45:48 PM »
I'm in total agreement. Elect a woman president, another person of color - anyone besides another aging white male boomer with limited mental space for anyone but more white people.

cliffhanger

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 89
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #507 on: January 04, 2018, 01:00:40 PM »
I think electing the first woman president would have been a better watershed moment for women's rights than electing a groper.  The emergence of a women-led resistance to this presidency is a silver lining, but saying we should credit Trump for it is like saying we should thank cancer for the invention of taxol.

I'm in total agreement. Elect a woman president, another person of color - anyone besides another aging white male boomer with limited mental space for anyone but more white people.

I'm glad we're in agreement about a President Nikki Haley, should she ever choose to run!

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2665
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #508 on: January 04, 2018, 01:12:23 PM »
I think electing the first woman president would have been a better watershed moment for women's rights than electing a groper.  The emergence of a women-led resistance to this presidency is a silver lining, but saying we should credit Trump for it is like saying we should thank cancer for the invention of taxol.

I'm in total agreement. Elect a woman president, another person of color - anyone besides another aging white male boomer with limited mental space for anyone but more white people.

I'm glad we're in agreement about a President Nikki Haley, should she ever choose to run!

Nimrata Randhawa Haley hasn't been as horrible as an ambassador as I thought she would be, considering she has absolutely no foreign policy experience at all. Though she seems to be infected with a similar strain of "try to mask your ignorance with lies" that many other people in the Trump administration are. Which makes her, like them, sadly susceptible to manipulation by bad actors.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/366712-russian-comedians-appear-to-prank-nikki-haley

I wouldn't doubt she decided to sell her soul to the Trump administration to up her profile for a presidential run. Which pretty much disqualifies her in my mind: she's too easy to buy.

In addition, she's too eyerollingly hypocritical on the "I'm a conservative who says government should get out of people's lives except when I want government to legislate people's private lives" for me to ever vote for her.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Nikki_Haley.htm

We shall see.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 02:11:41 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DarkandStormy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 803
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #509 on: January 04, 2018, 01:39:57 PM »
Nikki "We're taking names on the vote" Haley?  LOL ok.
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 50k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

PKFFW

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #510 on: January 04, 2018, 03:02:33 PM »
The Civil Rights Act was trying to stop hostile workplaces a full 40 years before #MeToo. The fact that you are not aware of basic law until #MeToo started says a lot about you.

Really, the idea that Trump getting elected provided a catalyst to make sexual harassment a much bigger issue is NOT far-fetched. I'm not even saying I agree with: I'm saying your dismissal of it out of hand is stupid, and your insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is "ignorant" is intellectual arrogance bordering on the obscene.
I never made the claim, for example, that legislators were actively ignoring sexual abuse of women.  So your ridiculous analogy and claim I did not know about the Civil Rights Act is rather lame.  Furthermore I never made the claim that the election of Trump did not bring the issue even more to light.  I only pointed out that the issue was being talked about long before the election of Trump and that the left was not "actively ignoring" it and that believing Trump should be lauded as the catalyst for change is a rather telling attitude to have.

On the other hand, Jrr85 did make the claim that "the left" was "actively ignoring" the abuse of women.  Jrr85's claim is demonstrably false.  Jrr85's claim does show he/she to be ignorant of the facts.  Pointing out that ignorance is no more arrogant than pointing out that generally speaking water is wet.


zoltani

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
  • Location: PNW
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #511 on: January 04, 2018, 03:22:14 PM »
Corey Feldman has been talking about abuse in Hollywood since at least 2013, nobody cared. He was even accused of trying to "damage the industry".
Still no one is talking about the pedophilia in Hollywood Feldman was trying to expose.
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

A Definite Beta Guy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #512 on: January 04, 2018, 03:33:12 PM »
How does this rule out Trump's election being the catalyst that brought about the change?

You might as well say it's really the Civil Rights Act in 1964 that was the watershed movement. After all, that's actually what entitles everyone to a non-hostile workplace.
Quote from: Jrr85
Exactly.  A full five years before Trump became President, but suddenly it became effective w/r/t hollywood, the Media, and politicians after president Trump became president.  Certainly doesn't rule out that it's a coincidence, but you are inadvertently arguing against yourself.  If you say things out loud before you type them, you could greatly reduce the likelihood of looking illogical.
Jrr85 claimed "If Hillary had won, you would have had the entire left, which includes the media and hollywood (which are apparently particularly hellish places for women as far as the developed world), actively ignoring the sexual abuse within their midst because they wouldn't want to negatively impact Hillary".

The "left", along with many from the middle and the right I'm sure, were actively trying to bring to light the issue a full 5 years before Trump was elected.  They were doing so during the entire period Hillary campaigned both in the primaries and the general election.  They were demonstrably NOT ignoring the sexual abuse.  But lets not let facts get the way of the narrative of MAGA hey?

The fact you two were not aware of the movement to bring to light this issue until Trump started boasting about sexually harassing women says a lot about you both.  The fact you seem to believe it should be the perpetrator of such acts that should be lauded as the catalyst for change says even more.  I imagine you would feel differently about Trump and other such creatures if it were your daughter/wife/sister/mother that was the one being grabbed by the pussy.  I rather doubt you would waxing lyrical about Trump being "a good choice to combat the victimization of women" in that situation.

The Civil Rights Act was trying to stop hostile workplaces a full 40 years before #MeToo. The fact that you are not aware of basic law until #MeToo started says a lot about you.

Really, the idea that Trump getting elected provided a catalyst to make sexual harassment a much bigger issue is NOT far-fetched. I'm not even saying I agree with: I'm saying your dismissal of it out of hand is stupid, and your insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is "ignorant" is intellectual arrogance bordering on the obscene.

I think we all agree that his election (along with some other events) were likely a catalyst; the issue I and some others take with Jrr85's wording is that he makes it sound like Trump did a good thing. Which is actually a very Trumpish thing to do, take credit for good outcomes regardless of his own role as the antagonist to women.

Also Jrr85, your assumption that liberal media would have actively kept these issues out of the spotlight had Hillary been elected as a way to protect her is mostly unfounded. As has been mentioned, these issues were already on the radar and being talked about. I can find hundreds if not thousands of articles on the topic discussing allegations against celebrities, republicans, and democrats prior to November 8 2016 from sources that you would consider liberal media.

I more or less agree with this, but there are probably a handful of consequetionalists out there that would still think that Trump being the catalyst would make Trump the better candidate. Counter-intuitive, but actions get judged by consequences, not intentions.

I'd think these people would be no more than a handful. Most of the people who are voting for Trump either don't believe the pussy-grabbing tape or don't think it's a big deal, not that Trump accidentally turned out to be better for women's rights by creating a backlash.

I disagree that political and economic leaders on the Political Left didn't attempt to protect their own. There's left advocacy and interest groups that attempt to expose the accusers, but it's a big stretch from there to "everyone on the left was devoted to taking these guys down." People like Weisenstein (sp?) would have people protecting them, otherwise they would've gone down years ago. Some of those people are obviously going to be on the Left. I don't know WHO was playing political cover, but some people definitely were.

soccerluvof4

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3222
  • Location: Artic Midwest
  • Retired at 50
    • My Journal
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #513 on: January 04, 2018, 04:01:43 PM »
Nope. Wish he would shut his mouth and tweet less but I do not regret my vote.
" In life you don't get what you deserve you get what you negotiate"

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1235
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #514 on: January 05, 2018, 07:40:14 AM »
I've lately been attached to this narrative that Trump is basically building out the biggest political deal of our time with the Republican party. This tax reform that was just passed is something that--once it is understood--should be appealing to any true economic/business conservative. The appointment of Neil Gorsuch (and other judges), should mollify social and constitutional conservatives.

In exchange, the GOP has to accept Trump, tweets, personality flaws, addiction to cable news, conflicts of interest, misogony, embrace of the alt-right, criminal indictments, everything. It's kind of a faustian bargain made to advance conservative priorities during what would have been four wasted years had Clinton won the Presidency. What is unresolved is whether these costs will so damage the Republican brand going forward that it will be difficult to retain power after 2020.

What Trump receives: a vast building out of his own (family) brand and business using the tools of the Presidency, as well as a lighter treatment via the estate tax when he passes away.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2779
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #515 on: January 05, 2018, 08:01:26 AM »
It's pretty clear by now (and the White House has no come back on this) that President Trump is the intellectual, emotional and moral equivalent of a toddler.  (Apologies to anyone who has a lovely toddler.)

The appointment of Neil Gorsuch is entirely the triumph of Mitch McConnell, who bent the constitution past any reasonable interpretation in order to prevent the appointment of an Obama nomination.  It's nothing to do with Trump.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #516 on: January 05, 2018, 09:20:44 AM »
I've lately been attached to this narrative that Trump is basically building out the biggest political deal of our time with the Republican party. This tax reform that was just passed is something that--once it is understood--should be appealing to any true economic/business conservative. The appointment of Neil Gorsuch (and other judges), should mollify social and constitutional conservatives.

In exchange, the GOP has to accept Trump, tweets, personality flaws, addiction to cable news, conflicts of interest, misogony, embrace of the alt-right, criminal indictments, everything. It's kind of a faustian bargain made to advance conservative priorities during what would have been four wasted years had Clinton won the Presidency. What is unresolved is whether these costs will so damage the Republican brand going forward that it will be difficult to retain power after 2020.

What Trump receives: a vast building out of his own (family) brand and business using the tools of the Presidency, as well as a lighter treatment via the estate tax when he passes away.

I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.  (This opinion is independent of whether Trump SHOULD be impeached).

DarkandStormy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 803
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #517 on: January 05, 2018, 09:34:11 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 50k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #518 on: January 05, 2018, 09:49:30 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

They don't have one. 

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2665
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #519 on: January 05, 2018, 09:51:12 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

"Naked power and money grab."

It has the added benefit of being short and with not very many syllables, so Trump can read it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 221
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #520 on: January 05, 2018, 10:21:04 AM »
Nikki "We're taking names on the vote" Haley?  LOL ok.

Well, she seems to have survived so far without looking like Trump's pathetic lap dog, which is a fate that far more experienced political operators like Ted Cruz, Mitt Romney, and Chris Christie didn't avoid.

I don't want her to be president for the reason I don't want most republicans to be president: I disagree with her policy positions.  However, she seems like a generic republican, deviating from the norm in only the degree of how much she hates unions.  Also, she managed not to look like a secret member of the KKK in supporting the removal of relics of the confederacy.  So, if a republican has to be president again, she's no worse than most.  And, it would be a nice opportunity for republicans to show they aren't racist misogynists, which I imagine they'd welcome.  And, electing an unremarkable female president would be a stab towards equality in the sense that mediocre white men have been reaching beyond their abilities for years.  Why not a mediocre woman?  Btw-I won't vote for her, which pokes a hole in the theory that liberals will vote for any minority and any woman.

Let's hope that we've learned our lesson about putting republicans in power.  We probably haven't, but perhaps upper middle class republicans will learn basic math skills when their tax bill come due this year.

Jrr85

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #521 on: January 05, 2018, 11:09:30 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

It pretty much consists of not being the Democratic Party.  That might be giving it a little too much credit, because much of the GOP is trying to be the Democratic Party, and even Trump is essentially holding together a coalition (such as it is) that is highly dependent on the old populist and nationalist segment of the Democratic party. 

But basically both of our parties are dysfunctional right now because there is no easy way to align the existing major factions into two parties.  You have the free trade group in the republican party, you have the nationalist and protectionist people that were before split between the parties (with probably much more of a presence in the Democratic party) by some factors not obvious to me who are now mostly (but somewhat tentatively) siding with republicans now.  You have the rich, white and urban and major metropolitan suburban "elites" in the democrat party along with the anti-white, anti-male extremists.  You have the rich white and rural and minor metropolitan suburban "elites" split between the democrat and republican party (with the republicans probably having an advantage).  You have a tiny portion of libertarianish people who have no home but probably have moved slightly towards republicans.  You have anti-police factions in the democratic party along with pro-police union factions in the democratic party, neither of which are compatible with each other but also aren't really compatible iwth the republican party.  You have crony capitalists split pretty equally between the parties, although they support different industries.  You have the people "for" the poor in the democratic party along with the greenies that effectively want to make the lives of the poor much worse. 

You arrange those into coalitions that come close to being compatible while also getting somewhere around 50%+ of electoral votes and also being competitive in state and local elections.   

PKFFW

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #522 on: January 05, 2018, 01:48:02 PM »
It pretty much consists of not being the Democratic Party.  That might be giving it a little too much credit, because much of the GOP is trying to be the Democratic Party, and even Trump is essentially holding together a coalition (such as it is) that is highly dependent on the old populist and nationalist segment of the Democratic party. 

But basically both of our parties are dysfunctional right now because there is no easy way to align the existing major factions into two parties.  You have the free trade group in the republican party, you have the nationalist and protectionist people that were before split between the parties (with probably much more of a presence in the Democratic party) by some factors not obvious to me who are now mostly (but somewhat tentatively) siding with republicans now.  You have the rich, white and urban and major metropolitan suburban "elites" in the democrat party along with the anti-white, anti-male extremists.  You have the rich white and rural and minor metropolitan suburban "elites" split between the democrat and republican party (with the republicans probably having an advantage).  You have a tiny portion of libertarianish people who have no home but probably have moved slightly towards republicans.  You have anti-police factions in the democratic party along with pro-police union factions in the democratic party, neither of which are compatible with each other but also aren't really compatible iwth the republican party.  You have crony capitalists split pretty equally between the parties, although they support different industries.  You have the people "for" the poor in the democratic party along with the greenies that effectively want to make the lives of the poor much worse. 

You arrange those into coalitions that come close to being compatible while also getting somewhere around 50%+ of electoral votes and also being competitive in state and local elections.   
It sounds strangely like you are suggesting that both major parties, at least to some degree, are trying create coalitions by accepting "factions" that take into account and try to represent the many varied and often competing desires and values of the broad population?

It certainly would be a strange world if major parties tried to govern in a way that at least made a pretense towards being in the best interests of all.

jinga nation

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 765
  • Location: 'Murica's Wang
  • Left, Right, Peddlin' Shite
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #523 on: January 06, 2018, 08:01:55 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

It pretty much consists of not being the Democratic Party.  That might be giving it a little too much credit, because much of the GOP is trying to be the Democratic Party, and even Trump is essentially holding together a coalition (such as it is) that is highly dependent on the old populist and nationalist segment of the Democratic party. 

But basically both of our parties are dysfunctional right now because there is no easy way to align the existing major factions into two parties.  You have the free trade group in the republican party, you have the nationalist and protectionist people that were before split between the parties (with probably much more of a presence in the Democratic party) by some factors not obvious to me who are now mostly (but somewhat tentatively) siding with republicans now.  You have the rich, white and urban and major metropolitan suburban "elites" in the democrat party along with the anti-white, anti-male extremists.  You have the rich white and rural and minor metropolitan suburban "elites" split between the democrat and republican party (with the republicans probably having an advantage).  You have a tiny portion of libertarianish people who have no home but probably have moved slightly towards republicans.  You have anti-police factions in the democratic party along with pro-police union factions in the democratic party, neither of which are compatible with each other but also aren't really compatible iwth the republican party.  You have crony capitalists split pretty equally between the parties, although they support different industries.  You have the people "for" the poor in the democratic party along with the greenies that effectively want to make the lives of the poor much worse. 

You arrange those into coalitions that come close to being compatible while also getting somewhere around 50%+ of electoral votes and also being competitive in state and local elections.   

+1. You can't have two parties (one for conservatives and one for progressives) that can meet the policies wanted by the extremes (left/right) and the moderates on so many issues. We are in the age where we need more stronger 3rd and 4th parties. Especially when there are a significant number of independent voters. The Dems and Reps have played divide-and-conquer far too long; but they never really represent the electorate's interests, especially now that corporations are people. We need an American People's party. Many many parties. The best parties. The current situation is SAD!
Signature worthless. I'm worth more dead than alive. Wife and kids will collect. Or Uncle Sam will, you can rely on Him.

WhiteTrashCash

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 986
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #524 on: January 06, 2018, 08:48:52 AM »
Look, you libtards, Trump gots a bunch of money and a hot wife and he had his own TV show, so he's a god emperor. Now shut your pieholes! [/sarcasm]

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1229
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #525 on: January 08, 2018, 10:42:50 AM »

aaahhrealmarcus

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Location: Missouri
  • Declutter. Decommodify. Denerdify.
    • Minimally Nerdy
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #526 on: January 08, 2018, 11:55:41 AM »
+1. You can't have two parties (one for conservatives and one for progressives) that can meet the policies wanted by the extremes (left/right) and the moderates on so many issues. We are in the age where we need more stronger 3rd and 4th parties. Especially when there are a significant number of independent voters. The Dems and Reps have played divide-and-conquer far too long; but they never really represent the electorate's interests, especially now that corporations are people. We need an American People's party. Many many parties. The best parties. The current situation is SAD!

+1. Unfortunately we have an electoral college and we're not a parliamentary system, which means it's literally impossible for us to have competitive 3rd or 4th parties without changing the constitution, IIRC.
5 Simple Apartment Hacks Behind my $39 Utility Bills http://www.minimallynerdy.com/2017/05/05/39-dollar-utility-bills/

A Definite Beta Guy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #527 on: January 08, 2018, 02:31:26 PM »
I don't see the value in additional parties vs. simply having flexible parties. Sure, Dems have some pro-police and some pro-civil rights factions that are in opposition, but I think that's better than multiple parties that are enforcing strict party discipline and have rigid, inflexible orthodoxies.

My major complaint with the US system is that we don't seem to get very good value for our money. That seems to be more an issue with local and state governments, so maybe we need to take more pages from other governments on that front. More competitive bidding, oversight, audits, anything else?



GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9709
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #528 on: January 08, 2018, 02:49:02 PM »
The strength of democracy is also it's weakness.

For a functioning democracy, you need a well informed and educated electorate who will hold public officials responsible for their actions.  We're in a kind of interesting time in that legitimate news organizations have been slowly dismantled over the past 20 years or so.  Opinion as news has been phenomenally successful (due to a mix of factors - from targeted misinformation campaigns by media owners to consumer complacency and lack of skills interpreting/understanding scientific information, little understanding of history or even basic geography) at taking the place of what once were a plethora of researched and reasonably unbiased stories.  Combine that with fiercely divided (almost tribal) loyalties to particular groups (and demonization of the other) and you end up with the current political climate.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2665
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #529 on: January 08, 2018, 03:00:55 PM »
The strength of democracy is also it's weakness.

For a functioning democracy, you need a well informed and educated electorate who will hold public officials responsible for their actions.  We're in a kind of interesting time in that legitimate news organizations have been slowly dismantled over the past 20 years or so.  Opinion as news has been phenomenally successful (due to a mix of factors - from targeted misinformation campaigns by media owners to consumer complacency and lack of skills interpreting/understanding scientific information, little understanding of history or even basic geography) at taking the place of what once were a plethora of researched and reasonably unbiased stories.  Combine that with fiercely divided (almost tribal) loyalties to particular groups (and demonization of the other) and you end up with the current political climate.

Pretty much this.

For the most part, anyone who was uninformed enough to vote for Trump in 2016 isn't going to be sufficiently more informed at the beginning of 2018 to regret it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6063
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #530 on: January 08, 2018, 03:53:42 PM »
and you end up with the current political climate.

You said climate.  I'm triggered. 

My tribal loyalties are kicking in.  Save the whales!

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 976
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #531 on: January 08, 2018, 06:09:25 PM »
I don't see the value in additional parties vs. simply having flexible parties. Sure, Dems have some pro-police and some pro-civil rights factions that are in opposition, but I think that's better than multiple parties that are enforcing strict party discipline and have rigid, inflexible orthodoxies.

My major complaint with the US system is that we don't seem to get very good value for our money. That seems to be more an issue with local and state governments, so maybe we need to take more pages from other governments on that front. More competitive bidding, oversight, audits, anything else?

I think coalition governments work well in some European countries.   There's some value here - the politicians have to reach compromises instead of having one party make all the decisions.

I'm really really ready for a minority government up here.
Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

Jrr85

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #532 on: January 09, 2018, 08:55:30 AM »
I don't see the value in additional parties vs. simply having flexible parties. Sure, Dems have some pro-police and some pro-civil rights factions that are in opposition, but I think that's better than multiple parties that are enforcing strict party discipline and have rigid, inflexible orthodoxies.

My major complaint with the US system is that we don't seem to get very good value for our money. That seems to be more an issue with local and state governments, so maybe we need to take more pages from other governments on that front. More competitive bidding, oversight, audits, anything else?

It's not about the value of having a coalition of multiple parties versus forming one party with informal coalitions.  There are very real differences in how things get worked out in a constitutional republic like the U.S. versus more common parliamentarian systems, and one or the other is probably a better system for handling certain situations, but I think a majority of voters in the U.S. would be unhappy with how the coalitions fell out in either system.  There's just not an easy way to form a coalition that makes sense, and even if they get their best possible deal, many voters are going to be unhappy with it because it will involve "their" leaders voting against their preference on a pretty significant issue to them.   

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1235
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #533 on: January 09, 2018, 09:14:30 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

Not true. GOP has remade society over the last 38 years in response to LBJ's great society, with the incredible starting handicap of Watergate sullying one of their most important political minds.

Ronald Reagan took power when conservatism first entered into national debate with a new argument: the idea that tax cuts would actually stimulate the economy to the point that Federal revenue would not be reduced by them long-term.

Then, each of two successive Democratic Presidents were pressured into shrinking the welfare state by power Republican opposition leaders: Newt Gingrich pressured Bill CLinton into Welfare Reform, and Mitch McConnel pressured Obama into the sequester, both of which are on the books to this day.

As soon as Republican Presidents succeeded these Democratic Presidents, the hard work of cutting spending had been done, and it was...time for tax cuts. George W. Bush in 2001 and again in 2003, and the Trump Tax cuts that just happened last month. For all the progress the progressive movement can claim, this is the central narrative of the Reagan-Gingrich-McConnel era we have been living through.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1625
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #534 on: January 09, 2018, 09:18:06 AM »
The strength of democracy is also it's weakness.

For a functioning democracy, you need a well informed and educated electorate who will hold public officials responsible for their actions.  We're in a kind of interesting time in that legitimate news organizations have been slowly dismantled over the past 20 years or so.  Opinion as news has been phenomenally successful (due to a mix of factors - from targeted misinformation campaigns by media owners to consumer complacency and lack of skills interpreting/understanding scientific information, little understanding of history or even basic geography) at taking the place of what once were a plethora of researched and reasonably unbiased stories.  Combine that with fiercely divided (almost tribal) loyalties to particular groups (and demonization of the other) and you end up with the current political climate.

I really agree with this. I think that the public is overall less informed, educated, and much more partisan (indeed both sides) than we were in the 70's-2000's. I don't think it is an accident. I think it was done for people to gain and consolidate power. I just don't know if we can turn it around.

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1235
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #535 on: January 09, 2018, 09:19:55 AM »
note: I have a Ph.D. in economics, so I feel compelled to add: the argument that tax cuts ultimately lead to more revenue is not supported by most economic study. 

Nevertheless, it's been an important tool of Gingrich and McConnel during the last twenty years, because it serves both sides of their plans well...

It allows them to say they care about deficits when there's a Democratic President, and then lower taxes when there's a GOP president.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1625
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #536 on: January 09, 2018, 09:22:44 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

Not true. GOP has remade society over the last 38 years in response to LBJ's great society, with the incredible starting handicap of Watergate sullying one of their most important political minds.

Ronald Reagan took power when conservatism first entered into national debate with a new argument: the idea that tax cuts would actually stimulate the economy to the point that Federal revenue would not be reduced by them long-term.

Then, each of two successive Democratic Presidents were pressured into shrinking the welfare state by power Republican opposition leaders: Newt Gingrich pressured Bill CLinton into Welfare Reform, and Mitch McConnel pressured Obama into the sequester, both of which are on the books to this day.

As soon as Republican Presidents succeeded these Democratic Presidents, the hard work of cutting spending had been done, and it was...time for tax cuts. George W. Bush in 2001 and again in 2003, and the Trump Tax cuts that just happened last month. For all the progress the progressive movement can claim, this is the central narrative of the Reagan-Gingrich-McConnel era we have been living through.

I guess the one problem is that the Reagan idea of cutting taxes to stimulate the economy, actually doesn't work. Other terms for this is trickle down economics, voodoo economics. And so the outcome of these tax cuts is blowing up the deficit, so that taxes would need to be increased. The other idea of cutting corporate taxes to increase jobs, has also not been borne out. We had higher productivity when corporate taxes were high (in the 50s-60's) and higher, actually livable wages for average people during that time. In addition a large amount of the government budget is nonfungible mandates, so all of these tax cuts down the road run into ugly reality.

A Definite Beta Guy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #537 on: January 09, 2018, 09:26:18 AM »
The strength of democracy is also it's weakness.

For a functioning democracy, you need a well informed and educated electorate who will hold public officials responsible for their actions.  We're in a kind of interesting time in that legitimate news organizations have been slowly dismantled over the past 20 years or so.  Opinion as news has been phenomenally successful (due to a mix of factors - from targeted misinformation campaigns by media owners to consumer complacency and lack of skills interpreting/understanding scientific information, little understanding of history or even basic geography) at taking the place of what once were a plethora of researched and reasonably unbiased stories.  Combine that with fiercely divided (almost tribal) loyalties to particular groups (and demonization of the other) and you end up with the current political climate.

My post got eaten. :(

I don't have much of a memory before the late Clinton era, so unfortunately I can't judge much. It definitely seems like news media has devolved entirely into "infotainment," coupled with a lot of critical mass rage-fests spurred on by social media. I have more or less resigned myself to this for the time being. Hopefully the environment will change in 10-20 years. I don't expect us to return to the era of post-war consensus or something like that, but I expect it get better.

My biggest frustration is the lack of reporting and analysis on state and local issues. I specifically started a subscription to the Chicago Tribune, hoping to get a better picture of our local politics. But it's horrible. I really don't care that some CPS officials misused gift cards, I care about how much money is going into pensions and what money is getting kicked in by the state.

There's a lot more digestible information about this about FEDERAL issues than there are STATE issues.

DarkandStormy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 803
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #538 on: January 12, 2018, 08:09:41 AM »
Trump's hit list:
-Obama's birth certificate
-Charlottesville
-Immigrants from Haiti/Africa/not-Norway are from sh!%hole countries
-Calls for complete Muslim ban
-Judge Curiel can't serve because he's Mexican

This is racism.  Trump is a racist.  Most of the country cringes at this but his base eats it up.  This is who Republicans (mostly) are now.  So 70+% of the country will scream, "Look! This guy is a racist!  This is outrageous."  The 30% or so (his base) will laugh and say, "Look, the rest of the country is so sensitive!  Trump is just saying what we think."

The difference could not be more stark.  There is no questioning who Republicans are now - racists.
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 50k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2665
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #539 on: January 12, 2018, 08:24:26 AM »
Trump's hit list:
-Obama's birth certificate
-Charlottesville
-Immigrants from Haiti/Africa/not-Norway are from sh!%hole countries
-Calls for complete Muslim ban
-Judge Curiel can't serve because he's Mexican

This is racism.  Trump is a racist.  Most of the country cringes at this but his base eats it up.  This is who Republicans (mostly) are now.  So 70+% of the country will scream, "Look! This guy is a racist!  This is outrageous."  The 30% or so (his base) will laugh and say, "Look, the rest of the country is so sensitive!  Trump is just saying what we think."

The difference could not be more stark.  There is no questioning who Republicans are now - racists.

And then there are the "shithole" comments of yesterday. Which will outrage exactly zero new people. Because 100% of his base thinks the same way.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/368631-fox-host-on-trump-s-hole-remark-this-is-how-the-forgotten-men

By "the forgotten men and women," he means racists, white supremacists, and neo-Nazis. This Fox host himself is equating them. So, yeah.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3002
  • Age: 26
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #540 on: January 12, 2018, 08:50:06 AM »
The strength of democracy is also it's weakness.

For a functioning democracy, you need a well informed and educated electorate who will hold public officials responsible for their actions.  We're in a kind of interesting time in that legitimate news organizations have been slowly dismantled over the past 20 years or so.  Opinion as news has been phenomenally successful (due to a mix of factors - from targeted misinformation campaigns by media owners to consumer complacency and lack of skills interpreting/understanding scientific information, little understanding of history or even basic geography) at taking the place of what once were a plethora of researched and reasonably unbiased stories.  Combine that with fiercely divided (almost tribal) loyalties to particular groups (and demonization of the other) and you end up with the current political climate.

I really agree with this. I think that the public is overall less informed, educated, and much more partisan (indeed both sides) than we were in the 70's-2000's. I don't think it is an accident. I think it was done for people to gain and consolidate power. I just don't know if we can turn it around.
I agree that it's happening and that it's a problem.  I don't know if I'd go far as to say it's deliberate.  The media produces what sells.  Being angry at "the other side" sells.

bdylan

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #541 on: January 13, 2018, 09:28:54 PM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

Not true. GOP has remade society over the last 38 years in response to LBJ's great society, with the incredible starting handicap of Watergate sullying one of their most important political minds.

Ronald Reagan took power when conservatism first entered into national debate with a new argument: the idea that tax cuts would actually stimulate the economy to the point that Federal revenue would not be reduced by them long-term.

Then, each of two successive Democratic Presidents were pressured into shrinking the welfare state by power Republican opposition leaders: Newt Gingrich pressured Bill CLinton into Welfare Reform, and Mitch McConnel pressured Obama into the sequester, both of which are on the books to this day.

As soon as Republican Presidents succeeded these Democratic Presidents, the hard work of cutting spending had been done, and it was...time for tax cuts. George W. Bush in 2001 and again in 2003, and the Trump Tax cuts that just happened last month. For all the progress the progressive movement can claim, this is the central narrative of the Reagan-Gingrich-McConnel era we have been living through.

I guess the one problem is that the Reagan idea of cutting taxes to stimulate the economy, actually doesn't work. Other terms for this is trickle down economics, voodoo economics. And so the outcome of these tax cuts is blowing up the deficit, so that taxes would need to be increased. The other idea of cutting corporate taxes to increase jobs, has also not been borne out. We had higher productivity when corporate taxes were high (in the 50s-60's) and higher, actually livable wages for average people during that time. In addition a large amount of the government budget is nonfungible mandates, so all of these tax cuts down the road run into ugly reality.

Shocking how wrong this is.  We are seeing a number of companies provide additional wage increases due to the corporate rate cuts

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/01/11/list-companies-paid-bonuses-boosted-pay-since-tax-bill-passed/1023848001/

GDP growth has been plus 3% for two straight quarters, possibly three straight quarters for the first time since 2005. 

Say what you want about Trump -- i think he is a fool and a charlatan -- for the economies sake he's been gangbusters as he isn't a Democrat.

And, lets be honest, he is a crude scumbag.  No one here who is expressing surprise about this had a problem with Bill Clinton when he was credibly accused of rape.  If you support moveon.org then you support everything that Trump has done. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 09:31:41 PM by bdylan »

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4208
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #542 on: January 14, 2018, 01:16:46 AM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

Not true. GOP has remade society over the last 38 years in response to LBJ's great society, with the incredible starting handicap of Watergate sullying one of their most important political minds.

Ronald Reagan took power when conservatism first entered into national debate with a new argument: the idea that tax cuts would actually stimulate the economy to the point that Federal revenue would not be reduced by them long-term.

Then, each of two successive Democratic Presidents were pressured into shrinking the welfare state by power Republican opposition leaders: Newt Gingrich pressured Bill CLinton into Welfare Reform, and Mitch McConnel pressured Obama into the sequester, both of which are on the books to this day.

As soon as Republican Presidents succeeded these Democratic Presidents, the hard work of cutting spending had been done, and it was...time for tax cuts. George W. Bush in 2001 and again in 2003, and the Trump Tax cuts that just happened last month. For all the progress the progressive movement can claim, this is the central narrative of the Reagan-Gingrich-McConnel era we have been living through.

I guess the one problem is that the Reagan idea of cutting taxes to stimulate the economy, actually doesn't work. Other terms for this is trickle down economics, voodoo economics. And so the outcome of these tax cuts is blowing up the deficit, so that taxes would need to be increased. The other idea of cutting corporate taxes to increase jobs, has also not been borne out. We had higher productivity when corporate taxes were high (in the 50s-60's) and higher, actually livable wages for average people during that time. In addition a large amount of the government budget is nonfungible mandates, so all of these tax cuts down the road run into ugly reality.

Shocking how wrong this is.  We are seeing a number of companies provide additional wage increases due to the corporate rate cuts

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/01/11/list-companies-paid-bonuses-boosted-pay-since-tax-bill-passed/1023848001/

GDP growth has been plus 3% for two straight quarters, possibly three straight quarters for the first time since 2005. 

Say what you want about Trump -- i think he is a fool and a charlatan -- for the economies sake he's been gangbusters as he isn't a Democrat.

And, lets be honest, he is a crude scumbag.  No one here who is expressing surprise about this had a problem with Bill Clinton when he was credibly accused of rape. If you support moveon.org then you support everything that Trump has done.

http://trulyfallacious.com/logic/logical-fallacies/presumption/false-equivalence

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1775
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #543 on: January 14, 2018, 07:06:16 AM »
Shocking how wrong this is.  We are seeing a number of companies provide additional wage increases due to the corporate rate cuts

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/01/11/list-companies-paid-bonuses-boosted-pay-since-tax-bill-passed/1023848001/

GDP growth has been plus 3% for two straight quarters, possibly three straight quarters for the first time since 2005. 

Say what you want about Trump -- i think he is a fool and a charlatan -- for the economies sake he's been gangbusters as he isn't a Democrat.

And, lets be honest, he is a crude scumbag.  No one here who is expressing surprise about this had a problem with Bill Clinton when he was credibly accused of rape.  If you support moveon.org then you support everything that Trump has done.

They're paying small, one-time bonuses. It's a PR stunt. Hell, WalMart simultaneously paid a bonus and closed locations/laid off workers.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1625
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #544 on: January 14, 2018, 07:09:53 AM »
You need to do some research on logical fallacies before saying these tax cuts, do what u say they do. We've already had this experiment with Reagan. Or you can ask economists what they think(people who study this for a living) and 15 out of 16 say it doesn't work like that. Saying we had 2 quarters of growth, is like the people who say climate change doesn't exist because we had a cold winter. This entire thread really reminds me of confirmation bias. The people who voted for trump, believe in trump. No matter the evidence to the contrary, are going to look for evidence to confirm their decision, and ignore, dismiss, the alarming shit he's doing. I do agree passing this tax cuts was an acheivement. I think it will hurt the us strength in the long term, but politically it was a big success for him. I have no respect for the Republican party because they have consistently traded doing what is right for this country, to maintain power. They should take their American flag lapel pins off and remove the American flags from their offices.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 07:20:48 AM by partgypsy »

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #545 on: January 14, 2018, 07:28:34 AM »
Shocking how wrong this is.  We are seeing a number of companies provide additional wage increases due to the corporate rate cuts

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/01/11/list-companies-paid-bonuses-boosted-pay-since-tax-bill-passed/1023848001/

GDP growth has been plus 3% for two straight quarters, possibly three straight quarters for the first time since 2005. 

Say what you want about Trump -- i think he is a fool and a charlatan -- for the economies sake he's been gangbusters as he isn't a Democrat.

And, lets be honest, he is a crude scumbag.  No one here who is expressing surprise about this had a problem with Bill Clinton when he was credibly accused of rape.  If you support moveon.org then you support everything that Trump has done.

They're paying small, one-time bonuses. It's a PR stunt. Hell, WalMart simultaneously paid a bonus and closed locations/laid off workers.

Wal-Mart basically had to raise their minimum pay. They were paying $2/hr less than retailers like Target and were having extreme difficulty keeping workers. The pressure from their employees and labor groups all but sealed that deal. Target is projected to keep upping workers pay and I bet Wal-Mart will too.

It's quite telling too that the first year projection of cost to Wal-Mart to implement these raises/bonuses is $700 million while tax cuts will save them roughly $2 billion/year. It will cost them less (sans one time bonuses) in subsequent years. That's the lovely thing about trickle down. The folks at the top see the largest benefit, likely millions in pay raises/bonuses. Meanwhile the folks at the bottom squabble over the remaining scraps and folks like bdylan point out how awesome getting a $2/hr pay raise is and we should all be thankful for Lord Trump making it possible.

Remember this Trump "success?"
http://www.newsweek.com/carrier-plant-layoff-215-more-workers-indiana-trump-778040
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 07:44:28 AM by MasterStache »

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 976
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #546 on: January 14, 2018, 08:27:32 AM »
I'm not so sure it's the tax cuts that are stimulating the economy.   I think the reduced regulation is more likely.   Governments always get in the way of business.   As a real estate developer, Trump is well aware what a PITA all those regulations are - hence his directive to eliminate 2 existing regulations for every 1 that is added.

You can see examples of this in Toronto and Vancouver real estate.   The government is mucking around with foreign buyers tax and empty house tax and double land transfer tax and mortgage stress tests.    I suspect that if they just got out of the way and let the real estate developers to their thing that this would do more to address the high real estate prices.

Don't get me wrong, government regulation is a good thing most of the time.  Think pollution for example.

My point is that a business is much more likely to commit capital to new projects if they think the government will let them make money.   This is what stimulates the economy.   Part of the might be reducing the level of taxation, but part of that is also reducing the level of regulation and oversight.

Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1235
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #547 on: January 15, 2018, 12:06:43 PM »
I think that if the Dem Party wants to scuttle their own chances of regaining any power, they should make a huge and noisy effort to impeach Trump if they regain the House.  And I suspect they will do just that.  Because the Dem Party is shit at strategy and playing any kind of long game.

Please explain the brilliant strategy of the current GOP.

Not true. GOP has remade society over the last 38 years in response to LBJ's great society, with the incredible starting handicap of Watergate sullying one of their most important political minds.

Ronald Reagan took power when conservatism first entered into national debate with a new argument: the idea that tax cuts would actually stimulate the economy to the point that Federal revenue would not be reduced by them long-term.

Then, each of two successive Democratic Presidents were pressured into shrinking the welfare state by power Republican opposition leaders: Newt Gingrich pressured Bill CLinton into Welfare Reform, and Mitch McConnel pressured Obama into the sequester, both of which are on the books to this day.

As soon as Republican Presidents succeeded these Democratic Presidents, the hard work of cutting spending had been done, and it was...time for tax cuts. George W. Bush in 2001 and again in 2003, and the Trump Tax cuts that just happened last month. For all the progress the progressive movement can claim, this is the central narrative of the Reagan-Gingrich-McConnel era we have been living through.

I guess the one problem is that the Reagan idea of cutting taxes to stimulate the economy, actually doesn't work. Other terms for this is trickle down economics, voodoo economics. And so the outcome of these tax cuts is blowing up the deficit, so that taxes would need to be increased. The other idea of cutting corporate taxes to increase jobs, has also not been borne out. We had higher productivity when corporate taxes were high (in the 50s-60's) and higher, actually livable wages for average people during that time. In addition a large amount of the government budget is nonfungible mandates, so all of these tax cuts down the road run into ugly reality.

Shocking how wrong this is.  We are seeing a number of companies provide additional wage increases due to the corporate rate cuts

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/01/11/list-companies-paid-bonuses-boosted-pay-since-tax-bill-passed/1023848001/

GDP growth has been plus 3% for two straight quarters, possibly three straight quarters for the first time since 2005. 

Say what you want about Trump -- i think he is a fool and a charlatan -- for the economies sake he's been gangbusters as he isn't a Democrat.

And, lets be honest, he is a crude scumbag.  No one here who is expressing surprise about this had a problem with Bill Clinton when he was credibly accused of rape.  If you support moveon.org then you support everything that Trump has done.

I'm surprised that you chose a user name to honor Bob Dylan, yet you sound like you believe every word in corporate press releases claiming very small end-of-year bonuses are only possible because of a tax reform plan that hadn't technically taken effect yet. You may wish to re-listen to a lot of material from before his London concert.

*end of user-name teasing and beginning of substantive argument*

Indeed, you're correct that the economy is good right now. It was also almost as good 15 months ago. It's still very difficult to know exactly how much of that is because of Trump, and because of which thing Trump is doing. Some of what he is doing--clearing regulatory burdens--is good for businesses, but bad for consumers. Some of what he is doing--such as pulling US out of TPP--will be bad for us, but we won't realize how bad until years for now. Some of what he is doing is fine for the economy but unpopular within the profession, such as replacing Janet Yellen with Jay Powell.

It's not fair to assess Trump as "good for business" or "bad for business" when there are so many discrete pieces that we should evaluate.

BTDretire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1684
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #548 on: January 16, 2018, 10:33:15 AM »
It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:
I have only read a few posts, I expect a lot of anti Trump rhetoric if other threads are any predictor, I could be wrong, I'll read it later when I have more time
Quote
1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...


 I didn't want it from the beginning,  my private insurance skyrocketed 18.4%, 19.2% AND 24% after Obamacare regulations started.  It covered a pretty small amount of the population, and many that got huge subsidies were those that could have afforded a non-subsidized loan.
Quote
2.  The republican tax plan
I think it is good for business and most of the population. Even a poor family can make up to about $35k with no Federal income taxes.
Quote
3.  Trump/Russia
You must be caught up in the media hype, I think they have about given up pushing what started with a fake dossier.
Quote
4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)
Point a couple out that seem to bother you.
Quote
5.  Korea

 Korea is Trump's problem, but not because of Trump, but because Korea was not
handled before they became a nuclear problem. Blame the Korea problem on previous presidents.
Quote
6.  General lack of decorum
  The MMM forum is known for a few fucks and shits, you can ignore Trump's colorful language.
Quote
7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues
Re: oil drilling, spills happen, clean them up and move on. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a cleanup brigade.
 I think technology will eventually come up with a clean energy source. Oil is on it's way out with electric cars, but
with the increased electricity demand we need more electric sources. I'm in favor of nuclear, but I'm afraid I've lost that source.
Quote
8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions
Trump didn't start that war, but he has a duty to protect our land until we can figure out who we are letting in.
The odds are more in our favor letting in a Norwegian than a Saudi. Sorry, just the way it is.
Quote
9.  Women's rights/issues
This is not Trump's design, it is society's, he has plenty of women working with him, and society is slowly working out the kinks. It's been tough, because, guess what, men and women ARE different.
Quote
I'm actually curious.  And I'm wondering if you will vote differently next time?
Nope, hope he gets the wall built, although I want a cheaper, two tall fences 30 yards apart with constantine wire in between and a road to check for tunnels. I hope he gets a chance to shrink government, but I have a big doubt anyone can do that, 'eternal life' and all that.  Lower corporate taxes allows us to better compete with a world that has caught up with us. Some of that tax reduction may also get passed on to consumers. The world is not a peaceful place, we need a strong military and a strong leader to keep ourselves safe. I'm not concerned about the high tax states, they voted that for themselves not for me. They can correct that as soon as they want.
  I would like it if Trump could move towards giving the states more rights, 50 state experiments.
 I've been on this forum long enough to know I will be face punched multiple times, so go ahead snowflakes, tell me how your feeling are hurt. 
All in good fun though. :-)
 
Last paragraph withdrawn until I read the thread. :-)

CheapScholar

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
  • Location: The Midwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #549 on: January 16, 2018, 11:24:31 AM »
No face punch from me, BTD.  I was nodding my head in approval as I read your post.  Pure poetry as far as I'm concerned.  The left hates Trump.  The media hates him.  And, in turn, every liberal on earth tries to shame us for supporting our President.  You can't post something even nominally supportive of Trump on FB or twitter without some old acquaintances calling you Hitler.  And, of course, same goes here on the forum unfortunately.  We're just stupid backwater racist ideologues.  And they will call us "Trolls" for posting this even though THEY started the thread and even though we've been on this forum well before Trump, talking about FIRE and personal finance.

I'm proud of my President.  God bless him!