Author Topic: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?  (Read 3972 times)

deadlymonkey

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Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« on: November 10, 2016, 08:55:41 AM »
Probably not but I was thinking that I would love a president to come out and say the hard truth to people and work towards solutions to those problems without sugarcoating everything to a base.

Some hard truths I think need to be clearly articulated to America:

Rural manufacturing is not coming back
Religion is Religion, Science is Science.  Treat them separately
If we want to be a leader in technology we need to educate everyone
Police can be bad and make mistakes and need to be accountable
There is a reason there are so many police in black neighborhoods.  It's not (only) racism.
The war on drugs failed, lets rethink our policy
Wealth is too concentrated
The military is a little excessive
No one is taking your guns, but we can try to make it harder for bad folks to get them.
Just giving money to the poor does not make them not poor
No one is entitled to attend a private college for free
You are entitled to higher education for low cost
Gays are people too and deserve rights
Abortion up to viability is a woman's right
Realistic sex education works, abstinence education does not.
hard working Immigrants (legal or otherwise)are not the problem, criminals that abuse our social compact are


more as I think of them....

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 09:19:09 AM »
Probably not but I was thinking that I would love a president to come out and say the hard truth to people and work towards solutions to those problems without sugarcoating everything to a base.

Some hard truths I think need to be clearly articulated to America:

Rural manufacturing is not coming back
Religion is Religion, Science is Science.  Treat them separately
If we want to be a leader in technology we need to educate everyone
Police can be bad and make mistakes and need to be accountable
There is a reason there are so many police in black neighborhoods.  It's not (only) racism.
The war on drugs failed, lets rethink our policy
Wealth is too concentrated
The military is a little excessive
No one is taking your guns, but we can try to make it harder for bad folks to get them.
Just giving money to the poor does not make them not poor
No one is entitled to attend a private college for free
You are entitled to higher education for low cost
Gays are people too and deserve rights
Abortion up to viability is a woman's right
Realistic sex education works, abstinence education does not.
hard working Immigrants (legal or otherwise)are not the problem, criminals that abuse our social compact are


more as I think of them....

Yeah, I don't know. That sounds pretty much like the platform that Hillary ran on. Are you saying that she hurt herself by trying to soften the blow of the "hard truths" with fluffy feel-good language? I would prefer to have a straight-talker as president, but I'm not sure the rest of the country would like it (although they did a great job of deluding themselves into believing that a man without even a passing interest in reality was actually a straight-talker).

I will state, in particular, that I want to punch the next Democratic candidate in the face who tries to stake their territory in the gun-control mine field, as Hillary did. It's a losing single-issue topic for too much of the electorate, and frankly, I don't think it would cause a big change in gun violence, short of an (unconstitutional) outright ban. So what's the point? Abortion is another sticky, single-issue topic, but taking away that right would have a massive affect on people's lives that conservatives just sweep under the rug, so I'm more comfortable staking out a principled view on that topic. The rest of those issues reeeeally shouldn't be controversial at all.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 09:26:46 AM »
Probably not but I was thinking that I would love a president to come out and say the hard truth to people and work towards solutions to those problems without sugarcoating everything to a base.

Some hard truths I think need to be clearly articulated to America:

Rural manufacturing is not coming back
Religion is Religion, Science is Science.  Treat them separately
If we want to be a leader in technology we need to educate everyone
Police can be bad and make mistakes and need to be accountable
There is a reason there are so many police in black neighborhoods.  It's not (only) racism.
The war on drugs failed, lets rethink our policy
Wealth is too concentrated
The military is a little excessive
No one is taking your guns, but we can try to make it harder for bad folks to get them.
Just giving money to the poor does not make them not poor
No one is entitled to attend a private college for free
You are entitled to higher education for low cost
Gays are people too and deserve rights
Abortion up to viability is a woman's right
Realistic sex education works, abstinence education does not.
hard working Immigrants (legal or otherwise)are not the problem, criminals that abuse our social compact are


more as I think of them....

Yeah, I don't know. That sounds pretty much like the platform that Hillary ran on. Are you saying that she hurt herself by trying to soften the blow of the "hard truths" with fluffy feel-good language? I would prefer to have a straight-talker as president, but I'm not sure the rest of the country would like it (although they did a great job of deluding themselves into believing that a man without even a passing interest in reality was actually a straight-talker).

I will state, in particular, that I want to punch the next Democratic candidate in the face who tries to stake their territory in the gun-control mine field, as Hillary did. It's a losing single-issue topic for too much of the electorate, and frankly, I don't think it would cause a big change in gun violence, short of an (unconstitutional) outright ban. So what's the point? Abortion is another sticky, single-issue topic, but taking away that right would have a massive affect on people's lives that conservatives just sweep under the rug, so I'm more comfortable staking out a principled view on that topic. The rest of those issues reeeeally shouldn't be controversial at all.

What I mean is that the candidate has no qualms about saying it to the people affected or in the press or on a debate stage and willing to defend the position.  Someone will go the rustbelt and tell them the factories aren't coming BUT lets work on getting education here and bringing in hi tech for example.  Or going to the police union and saying cut that shit out, some cops are bad and you need to stop defending them, and then going to the inner city and saying that if your kids keep robbing people the police will keep coming in here, to go to the bible belt and tell them if they ever want to join the modern economy they need to learn math and science and not just religion infused pseudo-science.


probably pissing everyone off, but I would hope there would be enough voters that see the wisdom in telling like it is and offering solutions.

frugalnacho

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 09:29:10 AM »
LOL. Not a chance. 

Kris

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 09:31:39 AM »
When I read your post, I decided to immediately reply without reading any of the comments, just to say this:

I predict that the protests you will get from various people who will vehemently argue almost every one of your "truths" will give you the answer to your question.

Sitting back to watch.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2016, 09:36:03 AM »
LOL. Not a chance.

Part of me wants to say "But that's what we all said about a Trump presidency!" but then the wiser part reminds me that the Trump presidency is, in itself, a repudiation of the idea that hard truths (or even truths in general) are even remotely popular. So yeah, I will side with "Not a chance". Sigh.

Jack

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2016, 09:44:57 AM »
The trouble is, a lot of the electorate doesn't agree with those "hard truths." For example, here is how they would respond (at least in their heads, if not publicly):
  • If we want to be a leader in technology we need to educate everyone -- "we don't care about being a leader in technology anyway"
  • Police can be bad and make mistakes and need to be accountable -- "we don't consider murdering low-income minorities to be a mistake. The police are plenty accountable to do their actual job of maintaining the racist and classist social order"
  • The military is a little excessive -- "have we conquered the rest of world yet? No? Then we need to increase it even more"
  • Gays are people too and deserve rights -- "LOL no."
  • Abortion up to viability is a woman's right -- "LOL no."
  • Realistic sex education works, abstinence education does not. -- "we don't want sex education to work. Keeping people pregnant and ignorant is a great way to keep them religious (and out-breed the damned heathens)"
  • etc...



StarBright

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2016, 09:46:57 AM »
I would say that in some ways Carter was a hard truth president, especially in regards to energy ("Put on a sweater").

It could not compete with "Morning in America" and trickle down economics (fwiw, in the primaries Bush I referred to trickle down as "Voodoo economics" - so hard truths hurt him too).

I think hard truth is appealing to about 40% of the population at any given time.

iris lily

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2016, 09:49:55 AM »
LOL. Not a chance.
Haha, yeah. Only in our fantasies.

The balanced budget isnt even discussed. Yet, that is the no. 1 issue for me.

I just want a CPA!to be President of the U.S. and a bumch of them in Congress. Those guys would clean up. I,p would love to feel as though grown ups are in charge.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2016, 09:50:44 AM »
The trouble is, a lot of the electorate doesn't agree with those "hard truths." For example, here is how they would respond (at least in their heads, if not publicly):
  • If we want to be a leader in technology we need to educate everyone -- "we don't care about being a leader in technology anyway"
  • Police can be bad and make mistakes and need to be accountable -- "we don't consider murdering low-income minorities to be a mistake. The police are plenty accountable to do their actual job of maintaining the racist and classist social order"
  • The military is a little excessive -- "have we conquered the rest of world yet? No? Then we need to increase it even more"
  • Gays are people too and deserve rights -- "LOL no."
  • Abortion up to viability is a woman's right -- "LOL no."
  • Realistic sex education works, abstinence education does not. -- "we don't want sex education to work. Keeping people pregnant and ignorant is a great way to keep them religious (and out-breed the damned heathens)"

  • etc...

Jack, you made me laugh a little and then cry a little (when I realized you were right).

OP, I 100% agree with you personally, but no I don't think the general citizenry is "there" yet. It would rain on their worldviews that they fiercely protect.

frugalnacho

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2016, 09:54:41 AM »
LOL. Not a chance.

Part of me wants to say "But that's what we all said about a Trump presidency!" but then the wiser part reminds me that the Trump presidency is, in itself, a repudiation of the idea that hard truths (or even truths in general) are even remotely popular. So yeah, I will side with "Not a chance". Sigh.

Not everyone was saying that about a trump presidency though.  There were a lot of people on this board pro trump.  And lots of people in my life that were pro trump.  And many of my neighbors putting trump signs on their lawn.  I expected him to get a lot of votes, but I didn't expect him to actually win.  I don't think some anti-politician telling hard truths would resonate well with the trump demographic, or the religious demographic, or most any demographic really.  People like to think they are rational and evidence driven and would say they would support a no-nonsense hard truth candidate, but most people are actually idiots, hence politics. 

wenchsenior

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2016, 10:04:27 AM »
When I read your post, I decided to immediately reply without reading any of the comments, just to say this:

I predict that the protests you will get from various people who will vehemently argue almost every one of your "truths" will give you the answer to your question.

Sitting back to watch.

Exactly.

Here's some more, coming from a slightly left of center perspective that my much more liberal friends frequently dismiss.

Middle class taxes must go up if we want to continue to fund the social programs that we have (SS, Medicare, Medicaid) in their current form. Yes, we can raise taxes on the wealthy, but there are not enough wealthy to cover this cost, which is huge. So that means you must pay more in taxes as well.

If you want to also have free education (which I don't support) or single payer health care (which I do support), your taxes will need to rise substantially.

Re: Manufacturing: these jobs might come back eventually as global labor costs rise, but they will mostly be automated anyway.

Re: More education is the key to getting people better jobs. Well, KINDA. Except there will always be a segment of the population that is not suited, by intellect or personality, for higher education. And if you try to put the poorly suited into those classrooms, all you do is hinder efficient education of the more suited. In addition, the more people we put through college or similar, the less the value of the education in the marketplace and the more downward pressure on wages in higher skill industries. With a bachelor's or technical degree being the new HS diploma to get a foot on the employment ladder, the Dems are just pushing a solution of spending a minimum of 2-4 more years in school, with added potential debt, to start at the same low wages that used to be available out of HS.

This is a really tough problem to address, which is why Democratic politicians mostly ignore it or talk around it. In fact, just typing it made me depressed. It's also why we are seeing ideas like minimum basic income starting to float around from policy analysts. It will be interesting if Dems ever start trying to sell those types of comments.

GuitarStv

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 10:33:41 AM »
LOL. Not a chance.

+1

Most people hate to hear truth because it doesn't always mesh with what they believe.  Politics is often full of liars because that's what people like to vote for.

ooeei

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2016, 10:37:04 AM »
If the "straight talker" has ideas that most of the people in the correct locations agree with, and is personable/enthusiastic enough to draw a crowd and inspire people, I don't see why not. 

The stuff in the OP looks pretty Hillaryish, so good luck to you. 

One issue I see with your ideas in the OP is that you're trying to scale down a lot of them to presumably appeal to the "other side."  This only works if you can actually convince people on the other side that you are better for them than the person who agrees 100% with them.  The gun rights one is a good example.  Saying you want to make it harder for bad guys to get them is a big flag for us gun folks, and if you don't mention repealing some of the current crazy regulations off the books, you're not convincing many of us that you actually give a damn about gun rights.  On the flip side, taking such a light stance means you're not appealing too much to the people who are worried about gun violence. 


Jack

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2016, 10:41:44 AM »
The gun rights one is a good example.  Saying you want to make it harder for bad guys to get them is a big flag for us gun folks

Yep. Not least because the entire point of the amendment is that the people who would be deciding who the "bad guys" are, are themselves the "bad guys!" Simply stated, disarming the populace is a prelude to tyranny.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2016, 10:43:46 AM »
All the education in the world isn't going to change the fact that the US federal government has done the following things to rural America:

* Regulated existing industries to the point where they can no longer be done on a small scale, or into non-existence
* Set import tariffs so low that it's cheaper to buy from overseas than it is to buy locally
* Set fuel taxes so low that people truly believe shipping is free
* Subsidized major corporations to extract a profit by mining or removing natural resources but fails to require those corporations to clean up after themselves
* Enforced environmental and other laws very selectively by punishing small or local producers while turning a blind eye to mountain-topping on a massive scale
* Refused to clean up the very predictable results of industrial accidents due to all the "progress": mine and company owners are doing well, but the workers aren't
* Subsidized major corporations in their acquisition of small farms and resources
* Bailed out predatory lenders with tax dollars, instead of jailing them
* Protected corporations from what would otherwise have been the predictable consequences of deliberately sickening workers, poisoning groundwater, and cutting down all the trees, and
* Blamed the victims (rural America) for the resulting devastation

Suppose for a moment I'm a 50-year-old coal miner from Appalachia.

"Oh, big mighty Government, bless me for I am a schmuck. What can I major in that will stop, say, an underground coal fire from raging and continuing to destroy the town? What parchment can I hang on my wall that will put the top back on a mountain or get the poison out of my drinking water? Please, please, Mr. Big Government, I'm so stupid and ignorant that I actually believe you when you say that I'm at fault for what that big, fat-cat corporation did to my lungs. Lend me a bunch of money so I can go to a whizbang school and learn just how stupid and ignorant I am , because I'd magically stop coughing up blood if only I had a degree in underwater basket-weaving. Or better yet, I could have become an investment banker instead, so that I could be the one lining my pockets while some other imbecile coughs up blood."

Metric Mouse

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2016, 06:09:33 AM »
I'm not sure this candidate should be voted for. They just list (some) of the problems in America - don't they have any fuckin' solutions? Sure education is needed; what'cha gonna do 'bout it?
Sure there is a reason (aside from racisim) that police presence is higher in low income neighborhoods; what'cha gonna do 'bout it?

etc.

There are enough politicians that can spout the obvious issues in America; where are reasonable solutions?

Travis

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2016, 10:11:06 AM »
This mysterious even-handed "hard truth" candidate would never last the first round in their Primary. You win those by riling up the partisan base, not by telling them half their platform is unworkable. This is especially true when the Primary starts off with a ton of candidates (Republicans last year and Democrats in 1999). They have to show their party they will work hardest at representing the Party's interests most which lends to more extremist speeches. The only ones you see giving Centrists speeches never poll above 2% and are about to bow out because they have nothing to lose. If we could change the Primaries into a series of party-neutral run off elections you might see a serious candidate giving those speeches from the get-go.

Northwestie

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2016, 10:26:40 AM »
IMO - we jumped the shark a while ago and now have entered the Idioacracy phase of politics - next we'll elect a former pro-wrestler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy



MrRealEstate

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2016, 10:41:22 AM »

deadlymonkey

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2016, 10:42:55 AM »
IMO - we jumped the shark a while ago and now have entered the Idioacracy phase of politics - next we'll elect a former pro-wrestler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

TBH, President Camancho wasn't half bad.  He identified a problem, found someone who had the ability to tackle the problem, implemented the recommended solution and the problem was resolved.  True he gave into populist pressure and tried to execute the guy who solved the problem before the solution became self-evident.....but his actions directly resulted in the problem resolving, notwithstanding the potential execution of his greatest asset.

Plus he had a machinegun.

Drifterrider

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2016, 11:06:44 AM »
If people could get elected by being truthful, the diet industry wouldn't exist.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2016, 11:28:21 AM »
IMO - we jumped the shark a while ago and now have entered the Idioacracy phase of politics - next we'll elect a former pro-wrestler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

you mean..?

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/politics/Before-Trump-Shocked-the-World-a-Pro-Wrestler-Named-Jesse-Ventura-Did-the-Same-400755891.html

Soon you'll be suggesting an actor could be come president. Or even some sort of body-builder, which is just a pro-wrestler without the acting ability.

frugalnacho

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2016, 11:34:37 AM »
IMO - we jumped the shark a while ago and now have entered the Idioacracy phase of politics - next we'll elect a former pro-wrestler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

you mean..?

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/politics/Before-Trump-Shocked-the-World-a-Pro-Wrestler-Named-Jesse-Ventura-Did-the-Same-400755891.html

Soon you'll be suggesting an actor could be come president. Or even some sort of body-builder, which is just a pro-wrestler without the acting ability.

Ironically the person you are alluding to was a far better actor than most pro-wrestlers, and is more widely known for his acting than his body building. 

MrMoogle

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2016, 04:32:31 PM »
Well, these are certainly some truths (some one-sided).  If you can explain liberal truths and conservative truths, and say while they disagree, neither one is crazy, and show compromise, I'd vote for you. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2016, 06:47:13 PM »
Well, these are certainly some truths (some one-sided).  If you can explain liberal truths and conservative truths, and say while they disagree, neither one is crazy, and show compromise, I'd vote for you.

Only 60,000,000 more voters to convince!

rosaz

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Re: Do you think a hard truth president could get elected?
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2016, 07:24:53 PM »
I'm not sure all of these are "truths" per se. That abortion is a woman's right, or that you're entitled to higher education at low cost - these are subjective opinions, perfectly reasonable opinions I don't particularly object to, but not "truths". You can't make a fact-only evidence-based case for them the same way you can make the case that police sometimes do bad things, or that the war on drugs isn't going well. You can only have your own priorities, and try to persuade other people to prioritize the way you do.

I think a "hard truths" candidate would have to be very clear with him/herself on the distinction between the two. Asking for people to hear your hard truths means asking for a certain amount of trust from them, that in the long-run they'll be better off from having done the painful work of hearing the truth. To then try and slip some subjective opinions in among those 'truths' might make people feel taken advantage of, and they'd stop listening.