Author Topic: Do you have a depressed family member?  (Read 9290 times)

CommonCents

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Do you have a depressed family member?
« on: June 04, 2014, 09:24:55 AM »
I believe my husband is deeply depressed.  He loathes his job with a passion that has only gotten worse over the past 3.5 years he's been there, yet won't quit because he doesn't know what he wants to do yet (or what he can be hired for, despite double Ivy degrees).  He also feels after a day at the office he has no energy to job hunt.  We have plenty of FU money for him to just walk away, but he also doesn't want to let what he created just fall apart.  When I suggest it, he will bring up that 3 years ago I was not in favor of this - a time when he was less stressed than now and when we had a much small stash, were spending on a wedding, and I was entering my second year of unemployment, and thus very worried about finances and my future employability.  (Note he's never really been "happy" with his job in the 6 years I've known him - he was also unhappy at his prior job and in particular with his then boss, which is why I regretfully encouraged him to look for and accept the current one.)

He refuses to go to the doctor to be diagnosed (for medical ailments or depression) and is quite skeptical at pharmaceuticals.  He hasn't been to the doctor in ~8-10 years or so.

Needless to say, this is taking a significant toll on me, particularly as he seems to believe that as his wife I ought to "make" him be happy - that it's my responsibility and also even possible for one person to be in charge of another's happiness.  On a separate level, I'm fearful this situation will never improve and it is preventing me from having certain things that are important to me in life, specifically kids, as he feels he has no energy for them.  (We're almost 39 & 35, so this is not particularly something that can continually be put off too much longer.)  The past few days the perpetual black rain cloud over his head has turned into thunderstorms and tornado warnings and I just don't know what to do any more.  Listening doesn't help (and to be honest, I'm more of an action person - listening - to the SAME freaking complaints over and over and over, with no action/no change is very hard for me).  Talking to him - about postive fun things, about focusing on a circle of control and letting other things go, encouraging action (doctor to work suggestion), doesn't help.  Suggesting he talk to other people doesn't help.

What can I do to improve matters?

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 09:57:14 AM »
I have been down the same path as your husband. Miserable with the job, and freaking out on Sunday knowing that I had to go to work the next day. So much work that doesn't end. Worried about supporting the family. I had some FU money but couldn't walk away. My misery was ended when I was layed off. That may be the only way your husband is going to break free.

Encourage him to take some sick days when he's not sick (mental health days). And keep supporting him regarding quitting his job. He will feel like he's gotten out of prison when he leaves that job.

mxt0133

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 12:11:20 PM »
There seems to be a lot of stories on both sides here.  Sometimes these stories build in our heads which are mostly assumptions because that's what we are good at taking bits of information and try to make sense of them.  I would recommend taking a step back and only state facts when trying to have a conversation about this topic.  Also to help your husband both of you need to know what his underlying anxiety is, even if it is obvious to you, it might not be to him. 

I know exactly how he feels, doesn't like his job, doesn't know what else he wants to do, and doesn't want to just throw away what he has build up, two degrees and years of experience to "find out what he wants to do".  Classical catch 22, doesn't have the energy to explore while his current job is draining him mentally.  I basically bit the bullet and took a sabbatical to figure things out.  In the end I actually didn't change careers because I still didn't find out what else to do.  What did change was my state of mind, that it was OK to work only for money.  There are many other parts of my life that are meaningful and satisfying.  My life became much easier when I accepted that I don't have to love my job or derive a lot meaning from it.  I will keep trying to figure out what I really want to do while building my stache.

You say you are more of an action type of person and not a talker/listener.  My wife and I are the same she just does and I like to talk/debate.  We have come to accept that and when I get in my funks she just plans something to get me out of it.  I resist initially but she makes me and in the end I find it really does help to get me out of my rut.  So plan a trip, find friends that you can talk to openly about your situation, focus on the good things in your life.

Good luck!




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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 12:30:30 PM »
I'm sorry you are dealing with this.  Your husband needs therapy.  Can you threaten to walk unless he agrees to go?  You can offer to find the therapist, drive him, sit in the waiting room, whatever he needs.  I hate my job too but good cognitive habits (I recommend cognitive behavioral therapy) can help so so much.  Or you could even just start with a decent CBT book.  It's not fair at all for him to throw back in your face you didn't want him to quit three years ago.  He needs to develop better cognitive habits that will help him think through this, and not just be overwhelmed and manipulative and cruel. 

However I do sort of agree with your husband that a severely depressed person should not up and quit their job, even if the job really is what is making him depressed.  When you are depressed you have no creativity, no gumption, and a major change like sudden unemployment can be tough to handle even for the mentally strong.  Could he first take a major sabbatical, vacation, sick leave, anything?  Just to get away from the office for a while.  I am sure he will say "now is not a good time to miss work", but given how miserable he is what's the worst that could happen?  Being fired would probably be a blessing, ultimately, so it is worth the risk of 'disapproval' or whatever for him to take a solid break.

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 12:53:15 PM »
I wish I had some good advice but mostly I just offer sympathy as I can recognize several elements you mention.

I hesitate to mention two things that I did in a similar situation because my situation is certainly not resolved and to the extent it's improved it may be due to other factors, like the weather being nicer, etc.

One thing I did was actually being kind of touchy-feely/self-centered (which is contrary to my usual more cognitive rather than emotional discussion style which it sounds like we might have in common) by pointing out how badly his black rain cloud was affecting me.  To the extent that he believes partners are responsible for each other's emotional health, that may wake him up to his own responsibilities.

I basically told him I was withdrawing support.  For certain things.  For example I won't listen to him bitch about his boss every night because I've made it plain I think he need to change jobs.  So it would be the height of ridiculousness for me to offer false sympathy.  I told him I'm happy to offer him pro forma non-genuine sympathy, but naturally that doesn't interest him.

Okay, maybe a third thing is looking for other things in his life to improve.  Like, if there are activities that he's more keen on than you, now might be a time to indulge him.  Or non-work things that he would enjoy, you could encourage him to do those.  Sort of like mxt0133 is saying.  A rising tide might make the rock in the middle of the stream easier to get over, if you see what I mean.  Or just blowjobs.  Blowjobs are usually a fast and easy way to improve a guy's day.

Seriously, though, while a person's character is hard to judge just from posts in a forum, you strike me as very even-keeled and sensible and I'd think you would be an excellent partner.  Like I said, I can very much sympathize, because, at almost 33, a similar situation involving kids is making me wonder whether I need to jump ship.

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 01:01:19 PM »
Sounds like he's "functionally depressed" and definitely needs a regular doctor checkup (thyroid levels, hormones, OMG there are so many things that are easy to fix and can screw up your overall outlook besides being depressed), and possibly therapy if he won't change the situation that is causing him stress (functionally depressed people tend to be more situational rather than clinical depression - they can manage to do the bare minimum of life functions required, but that can also be true of low-level clinical depression).

I honestly don't understand him not going to a doctor for a yearly checkup. I have known several, and I'm always flabbergasted at the childish behavior... and it never ends well since they ignore symptoms until much too late.

Have you discussed how this isn't just about him - that he is being very short-sighted and a bit selfish in putting you through all of this and refusing to make sure he is the best husband he can be... and that includes making sure he's healthy both in body and in mind. There is something wrong already in a person that doesn't go to the doctor/dentist at least every other year or so especially when they have symptoms of something being off. 

What does he say when you lay out how you feel? I think it might be helpful if you could do this in a non-confrontational way - using "I feel" type of statements and not telling him what is "wrong" with him. Ask him to tell you how he sees your lives over the next year, 5 years... and what would make him happy. What are his goals and dreams? Tell him yours, and see if you can get a dialogue going between you. If it gets heated, tell him that you don't want to fight, you are just trying to do the best you can to find a path to him and you being HAPPY... together. And also suggest that a marriage therapist might be a good neutral party to help guide you both.


I would not threaten him with any ultimatums unless you're willing to follow through on them. Threats have no place in a relationship. If you're unable to beg/cajole him into getting regular doctor checkups and to actually do something - anything - about his job situation that is probably a huge factor in this depression... I just don't know. You'll have to decide how long you're willing to live in this situation where he refuses help and refuses to help himself and yet has no solutions on how to move forward. That is a very heavy burden and only you can decide how long you want to carry it. I would suggest counseling for yourself to maybe work out what your options are.


totoro

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 01:43:22 PM »
So sorry to hear this, I have dealt with a depressed loved one and it is really tough.

Maybe when you tell him he is depressed and should see someone or go to the doctor he feels he is being criticized for being a failure? 

Plus people who don't go to the doctor often have anxiety about it that stops them from doing it.  You could try empathizing with him, agreeing on common ground like you'd both like it to be better, and set some goals together on how to get there. 

Also, he may be in denial.  He may need someone to go to the doctor with him because of the anxiety. 

You need to avoid burnout.  I'm not sure what would work for you but if I had to deal with a depressed person over again I would work on my own self-development so I could have better tools to manage it.

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 02:09:11 PM »
My husband sounds like he's been in a similar place to this for the past year or so, probably longer to varying degrees. He got laid off in April. Although others say that may be best so he can re-evaluate his career path, I'm not sure I agree.

Now he has no income and no drive or idea of what to do next. Its actually driven him farther down the depressed WTF lane. I had been pushing him while he was working to start investigating passions, side hustles, alternative industries, etc. of which he never did. Now he is floating around depressed and completely lost with what to do. I would advocate not telling him to quit rather taking some vacation or mental health time.

CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 02:43:41 PM »
First, thank you all for your thoughtful comments and your support.  I'll probably reread them again a few times in order to make sure I'm processing them all fully and thinking through possible things I can do.

A few responses and in fairly random order.  Unfortunately, some of what I wrote got deleted by operator error.  Sigh.

When his mom & I combined efforts, we finally got him to the dentist.  We've tried to combine to get him to the doctor, but he: 1) doesn't think a doctor will help, 2) doesn't want a doctor to tell him to take something, 3) I have no idea why else he resists.  Lack of time?  Hassle?  Perception of needing help?  No idea.  He is a procrastinator though.  I’ve offered to make the appointment and go with him, to no avail.  Anytime I suggest going to the doctor, he tells me that drugging himself isn’t the problem and won’t listen when I try to suggest that perhaps they might diagnose some medical issue.  (And yet at other times when he feels bad physically, he wonders if he has cancer and is dying.  Sigh.)

I have told him it affects me.  When he is in a better mood, he feels bad about that.  Only once, when my efforts to get him out finally sunk *me* into a somewhat depressed mood, did it jolt him out of his funk for a bit.

I don't really "believe" in ultimatums, in that I think issuing one can backfire, particularly if you don't follow through.  A friend suggested I issue one when we were engaged, 2-3 years ago, if he wouldn't go that we would not get married, but I wasn't willing to say it.  There may be a time and place for them, when truly at the end of your rope, but I fear the consequences would linger on (as in, be brought up 20 years later in a very negative light) even if it did succeed it getting him to the doctor/therapist.  It may come to that, but I’m not ready just now to go there.

I have tried to withdraw support.  After bouts of really feeling like trying to help isn't getting there I've told him I just can't listen to him saying the same thing over and over and that I was going to non-engage.  ("mmm" "uh huh" "I see" "yes dear" type responses rather than trying to listen or suggest anything.  This was a complete failure.  I also tried to do a "visual" for him to see how often it was affecting him/us, and once started a penny jar, wherein I would add a penny every time he said he was going to quit his job or hated his job.  I told him I'd start a quarter jar and add a quarter every time he did something to change the situation (and remove pennies from the penny jar or do something fun).  I never added anything to the quarter jar, and quit the penny jar when we moved.

I have suggested many things before reaching the point of trying to suggest he quit his job entirely.  I’ve suggested he requesting a sabbatical, meet with specific contacts to learn more about what else he could do with his phd, take vacation, consider if he needs to go back to school (mba) to get to the next spot in his career, etc.  He has double Ivy degrees in a science field, with some entrepreneurial exp and managerial exp, so I'm quite confident he's employable at something besides what he is currently doing (and a lesser pay is fine), but he is not confident.  It’s just that *something* needs to change here, and if as he claims, he can’t job hunt while employed, then he would need to become unemployed.  I really don’t know how much longer I can personally take of the status quo that slowly devolves.  (I don't think I could take it though, if being unemployed caused the situation to worsen.  I need some light at the end of the tunnel myself...).  I’ve suggested he take mental health days, but he thinks that would put him further behind (his work is horribly understaffed, with a micromanager head of company that ties their hands with their authority to do things).  He actually has vacation planned upcoming – a bachelor party on the other coast at the end of next week (3 days vacation) and back to back weddings in the beginning of July (6 days including the holiday).  I unfortunately think he’s too far gone that this won’t help him much though.

I have looked into counseling for me, so I don’t hit burnout, but haven’t actually gone yet.  The past two weeks is likely worse than normal not only for various job issues, but because his mom was out of the country on vacation and she normally talks to him a few times a week.

He does regret that we are no longer active in a few activities we used to enjoy together, but it’s a bit of a double edged sword because he also doesn’t like me to schedule too many things for us or he feels like he has no time/energy etc.  One activity, a soccer team of our college alums and friends, is how we met.  Unfortunately, we gave that up because we had difficulty fielding a team from week to week, and trying to ensure we had enough players (I took over captainship part-way through), particularly the required number of females for the co-ed team was just impossible as people aged, had money to take more vacation, etc.  Now we’re probably in too terrible of shape to be able to join an independent team.  (I’m not a great player, so I’d be able to join simply because I’m female and they usually need female players.  He’s gained quite a bit of weight so it would be hard on him physically and might create more negativity.)  Another was gaming, but we need to replace our computers to do that – and I found that we were getting more stressed by playing as time went on and it stopped being fun and more obsessive.  I’ve told him we can get new computers and try again, but he needs to engage and pick what he wants to do.  He hasn’t done so yet, although he has started obsessively playing some hearthstone of late on the ipad.  He also is  particularly unhappy that he sees his friends less often as some of them moved away - and many started families so they have less time to see us.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 03:07:17 PM »
Sounds like he has always been a bit depressed and had issues before you married. I'm so sorry that it is seriously hurting your relationship now. I'm definitely going to stand by my recommendation that you need marriage counseling and individual counseling if he won't go.

Start working on you and your happiness now. Let him know that you love him, but you've reached your limit on what you can actively fix and that you are not going to treat him like a child any more. If he needs/wants help, you're there for him. But he's got to do something and make an effort to work on both his depression/outlook AND your relationship. And then do what you need to do to get yourself back on track. If that means going out without him, do that. Re-join your soccer league if at all possible. Get out there and do stuff and invite him, but don't think you need to always schedule things as "couples" stuff. He's dragging you into his depression and refusing any and all possible paths to fixing things (health checkups, therapy, drugs).

Has he said how he thinks things will get better? Does he think that this is just how it will be for the rest of your lives, and he will never do anything to make things better himself? How does he know that he doesn't have something wrong that could be easily fixed if he never goes to a doctor or talks things out?

I worry about you as it seems you're stepping into a parental role instead of a partner role and that causes imbalance and additional stress on you in your relationship - there is a strong sense from what I've read that you somehow feel responsible for his happiness and that you see it as a failure that you can't fix things yourself. You shouldn't be having to baby and take care of him while he wallows. He should be trying, and if he's not able to get out of it on his own, then he should admit he needs professional help. He's not doing anything except complaining and withdrawing and pushing everyone and everything away (and isolating you both in the process).

There is only so much you can do, and you have to know that unless he is a danger to himself or others, he may be like this for the rest of his life. So that's something to come to terms with and then figure out your path from there. BIG hugs.

totoro

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 03:12:19 PM »
I don't have a good answer for you but I'll give you a virtual hug.  Go see a counsellor for your own distress - it might help figure out a way forward.

CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 03:43:52 PM »
there is a strong sense from what I've read that you somehow feel responsible for his happiness and that you see it as a failure that you can't fix things yourself. You shouldn't be having to baby and take care of him while he wallows. He should be trying, and if he's not able to get out of it on his own, then he should admit he needs professional help. He's not doing anything except complaining and withdrawing and pushing everyone and everything away (and isolating you both in the process).

Yes, I agree there are issues of me turning into the parent if I'm not careful, scheduling appointments, going to them, creating "visuals" to get him to see it's a problem, etc.  I've tried telling him that I can't be responsible for his happiness, but it's hard not to feel like I should be doing something differently.  I agree 110% with your last two sentences, although unfortunately, understanding that doesn't help too much.

Has he said how he thinks things will get better? Does he think that this is just how it will be for the rest of your lives, and he will never do anything to make things better himself? How does he know that he doesn't have something wrong that could be easily fixed if he never goes to a doctor or talks things out?


Agh, if I ask him this - he will get depressed and say he doesn't see any way forward and talking very defeatedly.  He'll say things like maybe he'll have a heart attack and die, or that he never sees it as getting better.  He might say that he'll just have to learn to not care as much about doing his job (but he then never improves his coping skills).  Unfortunately, I don't know that I've asked him this question much while in a good mood, because just talking about it can send him down.  (Note that he's not always like this.  While a pessimistic personality, he does have plenty of times when he is more positive.  Just not of late.)

I do do some activities separately from him (I'm heavily involved in a volunteer activity for one).  I could schedule more gals meals though, to give me time away and some place to vent a bit.  I'll get this breather a bit naturally when he goes on the bachelor party trip.

Thanks for the virtual hugs!  And for letting me let off a bit of frustation here.

Rezdent

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 07:40:38 PM »
It sounds like he is being honest with you about his feelings.  That is actually a good sign as it is a way that depressed people ask for help.
However it is likely true that he can't see a way forward because depression itself can overwhelm attempts to get moving.  Frustrating.
IF you can get him to a dr., and he takes prescribed meds then the fog could lift fairly quickly.  Maybe you agree to take the helm for a set amount of time (6 weeks?)with the understanding that if it hasn't helped by then he can discontinue the Dr.?
With or without the doc there are other interventions.  I'm a HUGE proponent for dietary intervention.  There's tons of books and articles and research on diet and depression and the recommendations vary because of individual metabolism.  Diet alone might not fix all of it but it might give enough relief to get him moving.  Diet +dr. would be even better.

Anatidae V

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2014, 04:13:51 AM »
Please get yourself to a clinical psychologist trained in CBT as soon as possible. Call and book an appointment by the end of the week. Ask them for books to read after.

My partner and I got mentally ill, and were making each other worse for months, during which time we were treated with CBT, before we really started to turn around. It will give you some strategies for trying to help him get to a doctor. My SO had many of the symptoms yours has. I subconsciously thought therapy was for crazy or traumatized people, ie, not me. I went when my friend pushed me, and then I pushed him.

Please take care of yourself first, don't demand or threaten (that's what an ultimatum is), but take yourself and work towards him sitting in on a session. Also, if you don't like the first psychologist, go find another.

Counting Down

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 04:21:43 AM »
Exercise really helped me when I was depressed. I took SSRIs for 2 months and didn't like them so stopped. But joining a gym with my husband and going together got me back to normal. You said you are both unfit could you phrase it that you would like to get fit and need his help. He might be more receptive if it's not focused on him. Obviously doesn't have to be a gym could be early morning walks/runs.

Also try do some fun things like go to a comedy show, a theme park or even skating. It's hard to be depressed when you're laughing. Sometimes you can get caught up in the depression it becomes your identity and you get a certain comfort from it so you don't want to change. Charlie Brown quote below sums it up.

      “This is my depressed stance. When you're depressed, it makes a lot of difference how you stand. The worst thing you can do is straighten up and hold your head high because then you'll start to feel better. If you're going to get any joy out of being depressed, you've got to stand like this.”



EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 07:23:13 AM »

Has he said how he thinks things will get better? Does he think that this is just how it will be for the rest of your lives, and he will never do anything to make things better himself? How does he know that he doesn't have something wrong that could be easily fixed if he never goes to a doctor or talks things out?


Agh, if I ask him this - he will get depressed and say he doesn't see any way forward and talking very defeatedly.  He'll say things like maybe he'll have a heart attack and die, or that he never sees it as getting better.  He might say that he'll just have to learn to not care as much about doing his job (but he then never improves his coping skills).  Unfortunately, I don't know that I've asked him this question much while in a good mood, because just talking about it can send him down.  (Note that he's not always like this.  While a pessimistic personality, he does have plenty of times when he is more positive.  Just not of late.)

I do do some activities separately from him (I'm heavily involved in a volunteer activity for one). 

Thanks for the virtual hugs!  And for letting me let off a bit of frustation here.

I can hardly even talk about this subject, my Mom had depression.  It is SERIOUS business, just as serious as cancer, and needs to be treated as such.  Ignoring it, focusing on a few goods days here and there will not help.  At first, I thought you might be talking about 'someone down in the dumps about a rough patch', since you talked about his job being the problem.  But what I quoted above brings back exactly what my Mom when through before eventually trying to take her own life. 

I'm glad you have separate activities to keep yourself sane, and a good support community.  I still don't know how my Dad made it in an empty house with my Mom, he had times when he just had to leave.  Toward the end, she was a completely different person, still physically healthy, had even lost a lot of weight, but it was too late.  I agree with what others said before, his job is probably helping deflect a deeper issue (could be chemical imbalance, we never figured it out in my Mom's case), but quitting or being laid off is not going to 'cure' it. 

If this strikes a nerve, then you need to drag him kicking and screaming to a licensed mental health professional ASAP and get him started on something so he can start to get himself back before it gets any worse.  I really don't want to post this personal information from my life, but I can't sit idly by and hope someone else does, so there you go.  I pray I'm wrong, and that you don't have to go through what my family went through.

Argyle

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 08:06:31 AM »
It may be that only a serious crisis will shake him out of his "Don't-bother-me-I-refuse-help" mindset.

The way I see it, the most urgent issue is whether you (singular) really want kids.  If you're on the fence and don't mind if you don't have them, you have some breathing room, though his behavior sounds exasperating.  But if you do want kids, you need to start trying about now.  But as I understand it, he's too much in a funk to discuss this issue seriously.  And then, maybe he wouldn't agree it's ever the right time even if he did discuss it seriously.  It's hard to know from this perspective.

But really he's holding the discussion hostage by being too depressed to take the issue seriously.

I think this is the kind of situation where an ultimatum and/or a boundary might be reasonable.  I mean the kind of boundary where you say something like, "This issue is very important to my life.  I've been waiting to put this on the table for three years now, and time is getting short.  We need to be able to discuss this in the next three months, or I'm going to have to evaluate my options."  To prepare for this -- to think what exactly is your own bottom line, what you want to say, and how exactly to say it -- a good counselor for you would be invaluable. 

At a certain point -- and this may be the certain point -- it's no longer about trying to make him do something -- it's about what you're going to do. If he responds to that, then you have a chance of moving forward.

CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2014, 08:18:51 AM »
Please get yourself to a clinical psychologist trained in CBT as soon as possible. Call and book an appointment by the end of the week. Ask them for books to read after.

What is CBT?

Exercise really helped me when I was depressed. I took SSRIs for 2 months and didn't like them so stopped. But joining a gym with my husband and going together got me back to normal. You said you are both unfit could you phrase it that you would like to get fit and need his help. He might be more receptive if it's not focused on him. Obviously doesn't have to be a gym could be early morning walks/runs.

I should clarify.  We're not in shape for running around for 1hr 20m with a soccer ball (as noted above, it's hard to find females on the co-ed teams, so that means running hard the entire game, no breaks).  I'm actually at a 21-22 BMI, solidly in the healthy range.  (Been working on improving my diet over the past 2 months, cutting out coke at lunch and finding healthier receipes for home, so I've lost about 8 lbs, which at my height/weight is not inconsiderable.)  His BMI puts him in the overweight category, at 26-27.  He enjoys walks, so I've been trying to suggest them more often.  About 4x a week we walk from work to the train station, and sometimes the reverse too in the mornings, from train to work, which is 0.7 of a mile each way, rather than take public transit.  Also have done a few walks around a pond near us (1-3miles, depending on how far we go), although we really should go more often than ~1x per week.  Maybe I can get him to make it a regular thing a few times a week.  I'll also have to look into diet modifications and see what I can do there.  And see if I can find a regular activity for us to do together.  It's a bit tricky because I feel I'm reaching the capacity of what I can join right now, until I scale back on my volunteer work, which won't happen for 1.5 years (I'm President of the Board), but I'll squeeze it in.

Last night seemed to be improved.  We saw a movie (free screener tickets), and talked on on the mile walk home.  He also did say that he loves me very much, he knows it's hard on me, and he doesn't know what he'd do if his unhappiness (he doesn't call it depression) pushes me away and he lost me, because I'm the only thing good in his life right now (no pressure there...).  So I don't thinking issuing an ultimatum is the right approach, I think it'd spiral him down.  (Argule, just saw your post after writing the above.  Maybe it depends how I frame it and approach it.)  He talked to a friend whose been trying to reach him (but he hasn't wanted to talk to him because he didn't think the friend would respond productively to work complaints, so I suggested he not engage over work conversation and talk instead about other things, which he did).  Also talked to his mom who is back from France.  And, this morning he told me he thinks he may take a mental health day tomorrow, his first ever in his life - which I'm going to optimistically see as a sign that maybe he will finally consider other changes as well.

In regards to how long this has been going on question, well, he's always been a pessimistic person, though he'd call it a realist instead.  When we first started dating 6 years ago (2008), he wasn't thrilled at his job, but it wasn't quite like this.  After about a year or two, he started to get unhappier there because of his boss, so I encouraged him to look elsewhere.  He didn't really interview much, just at the current place.  The current job is a tough one, I will definitely grant him, without much support from the company.  He had an effective boss initially, but then switched bosses about a year ago which definitely helped.  Unfortunately, issues such as understaffing for their model (compared to peer organizations) are excerbated by one person being let go, a person out on maternity leave, etc. on a very small team.  Last Oct they knew they needed to staff up, and got permission to make 2 hires, but are in the same place as then, with no signs it'll improve soon.  His job also involves a lot of rejection - telling other people no.  He's also frustrated at his inability to do things for his people (e.g. getting a bonus or recognition for the person covering the job where the person was let go).  So it's gotten worse and more problematic over the past ~3 years.  He'll have waves where he thinks it's getting better (though never well), times when it putters along not great, and times when it's definitely worse.  Progressively more down time as it goes on.  I once likened it to an abusive relationship (when he was in an up period), and I think he agreed.

In regards to kids, yes, I want them, I'm not on the fence.  I thought we had agreed to have them in fact, before I agreed to move in with him and get married.  I found out later he had a different interpretation of our conversations.  His concerns re kids used to be financial, whether we could afford them.  (It does not help that my sister is queen of kid-consumption with over the top things like birthdays and christmas.)  As you all well know, kids don't need to be that expensive.  I think he is more ok on the finances now, but recognizes this decision would prevent him from retiring early (so he thinks, particularly as he feels obligation to pay fully for college), and that coupled with his job hatred, is problematic.  Of late, his concerns have been more that he'll have no energy for them, leave me with all of the work, and I'll get extremely frustrated by it.  My nephew is pretty high energy and when we we see them, we're the "exciting toys" he wants to play with, which also probably doesn't help.  I have my annual appointment with my doctor at the end of July, so I'm thinking of trying to get him to come with me and hear what the doctor has to say regarding timing/fertility.

CU Tiger

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2014, 08:38:55 AM »
I personally have been more on his side of things, and here is what helped me. My husband finally let me know (firmly) that coming home to me being in a foul mood every day was not fun for him, and frankly, was making him dread coming home. He said I was either weepy or angry every single day, and it was not fair to him to keep acting this way if I was not going to do anything to change my situation. He was pretty angry when we talked, but did not yell, just stated that the situation was not fair to him and he needed things to change.
I thought about it for a while, and realized that he was right. I am a grown woman and was acting like a petulant teenager and making both of our lives a misery. After that I stopped with the whining/complaining, and started taking tiny steps to get out of the job. I mean it, every day when he said, “How was your day?” – even if it has sucked, I said, “It was okay,” and tried to talk about something interesting or weird that had happened. Or I brought up some non-work subject. I tried VERY hard not to take out my hatred of the job on him.
A good friend of mine whose husband was in medical school had a similar situation to yours. The Med Student Husband was clinically depressed, but like many physician-type people, would not admit there was something wrong with him. He was miserable and was making her miserable until she got to her breaking point. At the breaking point, she told him that either he got his butt to the doctor/therapist and got medication and therapy, or they were separating. Not divorcing, but they were going to have to live apart until he got his stuff under control. She knew that it would take time for a bad depression like his to resolve, but she wasn’t going to stay while he wasn’t doing anything to change. She told me that the thing was, when she said this, she really meant it. She had a plan for him moving out and some suggestions for where he could stay and how they would deal with the finances. It was NOT an empty threat. He was shocked (SHOCKED!) that she wasn’t going to just put up with the situation, and in their case, he got on the phone, made appointments with the doctor/therapist, and got some help.
I will say, don’t make the threat if you can’t follow through, that just puts you in a place of weakness. Maybe he says, “Fine, let’s get a divorce!” Maybe that happens, but would it be the worst thing in the world? If my husband had finally said to me, “I cannot live with someone who is so unhappy, but won’t do a single thing to change the things in her life that make her unhappy…” I think that would have been fair. It also would have shocked me into agreeing to therapy or doing something to change how things were going. And if I continued acting like a butthead and he divorced me…well, it could have happened.
Plus, can I just say, no one can make another happy. We can be supportive, encouraging, and sympathetic…but his happiness is his own damn problem.


Oh hon, I typed all this, and then read all the other requests, and this is what it pretty much comes down to....you are in control only of your own life. You may love him to pieces, but you can't change him. If you are willing to be his nurse, cheerleader, babysitter...you can do that. Do you want to spend the next 50 years of your life with someone who has a treatable illness who won't seek out treatment?

I'd make that appointment with the doctor for him and tell him to get in the damn car to go to it, and I'd got with him! If he wouldn't, I'd call a lawyer about a separation. I just do not believe in helping people who refuse to do anything to help themselves.

golden1

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2014, 12:41:39 PM »
CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy.  I would start with the book "Feeling Good" by David Burns.  It is in paperback and I would get the book and give it to your husband and ask him to read it.  It is not a typical self-help book but gives real, honest solutions and strategies for using logic to beat all the negative feelings.  I am also a scientist and that book did wonders for me and started me down a good path to recovery.

Encourage walking or any other form of exercise.  The best is something that raises the heart rate for at least 30 minutes.  For me that is running, but a brisk walk is a good start. 

I can relate to your husband.  It actually took me having children to really get help. I consider my 20's a bit of a lost decade because I suffered from dysthymia - a low level depression that left me with low energy, low self-esteem, and just a general sadness.  I was functionally depressed, able to do my job, but there was no joy in it, or in anything else really.   Once I had kids, the extra stress pushed me over the edge into a more severe depression with a side of generalized anxiety, and I realized this wasn't working anymore and I needed help.  I did do a low dos of medication, but the biggest help was CBT, exercise and also mindfulness practice. 

Good luck, and I wish you the best.


CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2014, 01:03:20 PM »
CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy.  I would start with the book "Feeling Good" by David Burns.  It is in paperback and I would get the book and give it to your husband and ask him to read it.  It is not a typical self-help book but gives real, honest solutions and strategies for using logic to beat all the negative feelings.  I am also a scientist and that book did wonders for me and started me down a good path to recovery.

Ah, yes, that would definitely be more his speed.  I just requested it.  Currently all copies are out, so it may take a little time but I'll consider the fact that they're all out a good sign.

fallstoclimb

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2014, 01:23:55 PM »
I second the Feeling Good book.  I definitely found a few areas to criticize when I read it, but the exercises in it are really solid and I think it will be really useful for someone like your husband, who doesn't seem to be super aware of how maladaptive his patterns are.  (I'm more in the boat of, well this is completely dumb and I know its untrue but I still sort of believe X, which makes it harder to fight).  Your husband seems to really believe what he is saying -- things will never get better -- and the book has exercises in there to force yourself to tear apart negative automatic thoughts like that.

I'm really glad you seem open to individual counseling, I meant to comment on that in my first post.  The only person you can really change is you.  I'm a big fan of Carolyn Hax (advice columnist) and she always recommends counseling for someone writing in with complaints like yours.

I understand why people don't want to take anti-depressants, but I don't understand his refusal to do therapy.  It's not like a "normal" doctor or dentist where they might do something invasive.  It's just talking.  If you make it clear the therapist won't prescribe drugs would he be more open to it?

Either way, start with Feeling Good, definitely. 

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2014, 02:34:54 PM »
My husband did. :) I was diagnosed with Major Depression after a particularly difficult period and medication helped me tremendously. However, if your husband isn't there yet, he isn't there. So instead I offer this comic, which is truly the best explanation of depression I've ever read. It's what I share with people to explain what it's like to have Major Depression.

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html

My husband has said that it was hard for him to make a lot of suggestions to me for things that would normally make be happy (exercise, gardening, etc.) and make efforts to give me the time to do those things, and have me almost refuse to take action towards them. He has come to realize he might as well have been telling a legless person to "just walk it off" - my brain just wasn't seeing things properly. But on the positive side, I found that once I got properly treated, the "old me" who could make those self-care decisions to exercise, eat better, engage in joyful activities, etc., came back fairly quickly. Best of luck to you both. Depression f'ing sucks.

CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 08:16:25 AM »
Update:

I was too optimistic that he was getting out of this particular episode.  He didn't take his mental health day today (he apparently even told his boss yesterday he was considering taking one, and she told him he ought to, but in the end, he didn't want to risk being charged a vacation day and he didn't want to lie about it).  So he went in, and was back to the gloomy self - Wed was just a brief blip upwards this week.

Walking into work from the train with him was tough.  He's not the same person as he was even 2-3 years ago.  He had briefer but intense dark periods then, set off by specific work incidents.  Now, the darkness is fairly constant.  So, this morning I looked for support groups for family members in my area.  Unfortunately, all I could find initially were ones south of Boston, not in Boston or north of Boston.  (Seriously, what's up with that guys?)  I finally located one in Boston and emailed the organizer to figure out if it's FOR family members, or just that families members are welcome.  Crossing my fingers.

The only thing about this group is that I am fairly sure, based on the first name and initial of that organizer, that I know him professionally, as I'm a health care lawyer and work for the state.  I'm a bit more behind the scenes than my program staff, but I work directly on a program that he's a big stakeholder (actively lobbying for certain things etc. in his role of President of a different but related health advocacy group).  So...I need to see how that plays out, if I'll feel comfortable going, particularly if he's actually running a group.

I understand why people don't want to take anti-depressants, but I don't understand his refusal to do therapy.  It's not like a "normal" doctor or dentist where they might do something invasive.  It's just talking.  If you make it clear the therapist won't prescribe drugs would he be more open to it?

Nope.  He does not think talking will help, so he won't consider it.  I've told him that he hasn't tried, so he doesn't know, but have gotten nowhere on it.  The best I've been able to do is have him talk a little to two friends of mine, one is a doctor (no longer living nearby) or another that has worked in health care related areas and just 'vent" a bit. 
He does recognize that if he's always unhappy and always venting, he may push friends away and lose support, but it's usually after the fact, wondering after we've had dinner with some friends whether they'll want to keep seeing him if he's always negative and gloomy about life and his job.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 08:51:28 AM »
I'm sure this takes courage to write, or else maybe you are at the absolute desperation point.  Either way, you *have got to* get him to a professional or figure out some way to get him on a medication that provides a boost.  I don't know how you explain to him that it's not him, that his brain chemistry is screwing him over.  Trust me, we tried **everything** to reason with our depressed family member, and eventually had to resort to treating her like a child when things got to the breaking point.  Looking back, we never should have let it go so long, but we thought "hey, she's healthy and has everything to live for, she'll eventually get over it". 

He has come to realize he might as well have been telling a legless person to "just walk it off" - my brain just wasn't seeing things properly. But on the positive side, I found that once I got properly treated, the "old me" who could make those self-care decisions to exercise, eat better, engage in joyful activities, etc., came back fairly quickly. Best of luck to you both. Depression f'ing sucks.

The Happy Philosopher

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 09:22:52 AM »
Thanks for sharing, depression is horrible and often difficult to deal with. There is a big difference between situational depression and severe clinical depression. I would echo what many others have said- he needs professional help. Someone needs to assess him and make sure he isn't suicidal. Suicide rate is around 1% in the general population and disproportionally affects males. People in deep depression have difficulty making rational decisions and may be very reluctant to seek treatment. With regards to medications, sometimes they can be extremely effective. Some people are afraid it will change who they are or mask their personality, but in fact, when they work they allow a person to be their true self. I feel for you and hope you get things figured out.

CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 09:34:48 AM »
Ok, heard back on the group.  It seems not the right fit, but there's another I can attend instead, which is more inconvenient located but a better fit. 

Re getting him to the doctor, this will sound really stupid but...  I have no idea who his PCP is, which makes it hard to schedule an appointment for him.  We have separate health care plans, and as he's never gone in the time he's been on the latest insurance, he doesn't even know who it.  It's probably in long buried paperwork (I've asked him for it, but he hasn't looked for it).  I would think if I called his health plan they won't tell me because of HIPAA issues.  Any suggestions to figuring this out?

He just told me he's headed home.  Not sure if something happened at work to set this off, but shy of getting sick mid-day (or thinking he could power through being sick and failing), he's never done this before.  ETA: Nothing specific happened, it seems it's just more of the same stuff that have frustrated him, so he called his boss and told her he had tried, but it wasn't going to work and he was taking the rest of the day as a sick day.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 09:50:30 AM by CommonCents »

Anatidae V

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2014, 09:51:11 AM »
I'm sure this takes courage to write, or else maybe you are at the absolute desperation point.  Either way, you *have got to* get him to a professional or figure out some way to get him on a medication that provides a boost.  I don't know how you explain to him that it's not him, that his brain chemistry is screwing him over.  Trust me, we tried **everything** to reason with our depressed family member, and eventually had to resort to treating her like a child when things got to the breaking point.  Looking back, we never should have let it go so long, but we thought "hey, she's healthy and has everything to live for, she'll eventually get over it". 

He has come to realize he might as well have been telling a legless person to "just walk it off" - my brain just wasn't seeing things properly. But on the positive side, I found that once I got properly treated, the "old me" who could make those self-care decisions to exercise, eat better, engage in joyful activities, etc., came back fairly quickly. Best of luck to you both. Depression f'ing sucks.
+1
Get who ever you can to help you physically ensure he sees someone ASAP. This is an illness, so if he was too weak to get in the car from influenza to visit the doctor, you'd get a friend or family member to help you get him there. This isn't an analogy, this is "exactly the same principle applies". He is sick, you need to take him to see someone. I wish you luck, this will not be easy. He sounds pretty unwell. *hugs*

golden1

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2014, 09:57:58 AM »
He is suffering from distorted thinking, so he may not feel that he is capable of the work of therapy or much of anything else.  He is probably thinking something like, "Why bother, it isn't going to help."  "The only thing that will help is to get out of this miserable job, but I put too much investment into it so I am trapped."  He is probably feeling an incredible amount of inertia and futility.

At a certain point, if he really won't get any help, then you may have to make a series of decisions.
 
1) How long can you live like this?  I can tell by your posts that you are living on edge, and that your moods and feelings are dependant on his, which you probably know is not healthy.  It is like living on a roller coaster and you can't see what is coming around the bend.  Hopefully therapy for yourself can help mitigate this and let you learn to separate your own moods from his.  It is a good start. 

2) He simply may not seek help unless he is pushed into it somehow by realizing that he might lose everything.  I know you don't want to go there yet, but the best way to support him and get him the help he needs may just be to let him go - at least for awhile.   Depressed people are really selfish - trust me, I know :P - they are so self involved in their own misery that they don't look around to see how their behavior and moods are effecting others.  They don't have the energy to care much about others.   Because of that, they may need extra input to understand that this isn't just his problem, it is a family problem and affects everyone.  If he can't do the smallest things to try to take that first step forward, then the relationship is one sided and will eventually crumble.  You will grow to resent him.   

I hope the book gets through to him, and the therapy helps you guys move forward.  It is rough, but there is a way out. 

deborah

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2014, 10:30:52 AM »
How much vacation time does he have available? Would it be worth having a break just to wind down?

former player

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2014, 10:40:00 AM »
He just told me he's headed home.  Not sure if something happened at work to set this off, but shy of getting sick mid-day (or thinking he could power through being sick and failing), he's never done this before.  ETA: Nothing specific happened, it seems it's just more of the same stuff that have frustrated him, so he called his boss and told her he had tried, but it wasn't going to work and he was taking the rest of the day as a sick day.

This may be the point at which you go home, ask your husband who his PCP is (and if he doesn't know, ask if you can go through his insurance papers with him to find out) and make an emergency appointment for him.  Good luck.

Jenga

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2014, 11:22:07 AM »
Depression is a miserable thing, both for the person suffering it, and the people who love him/her.  :( You're absolutely right that it isn't reasonable for him to expect you to make him happy;  that doesn't work in the normal course of things, and definitely won't in the case of depression.

Have you seen this post on Captain Awkward? 

http://captainawkward.com/2011/11/05/question-130-my-partner-is-depressed-and-i-am-drowning/

It might not all apply, but the advice is aimed at someone whose partner is suffering depression, and there are a lot of ideas in the comments, too.  I hope that your husband will find himself in a place where he can reach out for some help soon.  As other people in the thread have said, don't forget to take care of yourself in all this too!

CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2014, 11:53:06 AM »
How much vacation time does he have available? Would it be worth having a break just to wind down?

Mentioned up above, but he's taking off three days next week (th/fri/mon) for a bachelor party, and 6 days the second week in July for back to back weddings.  So in the next five weeks, he has basically two weeks off.  He has another 2? weeks of vacation days left after that.  It's not likely his boss would let him use them together, on top of the other days in the next five weeks, though I did suggest he at least try and ask for a sabbactical.  (One issue: A year or so ago he had vacation days saved, was offered a one-time opportunity to cash them out and although I suggested he shouldn't do that, at least with all of them, he did.  So he hasn't used all of his vacation time for the past 3.5 years, he cashed out a portion.)

This may be the point at which you go home, ask your husband who his PCP is (and if he doesn't know, ask if you can go through his insurance papers with him to find out) and make an emergency appointment for him.  Good luck.

Yeah he doesn't know, but I plan to make it priority to figure out this weekend and try to find his papers (it's not like they are organized in an easy to go through place).  I called his mom an hour ago to let her know and ask her to check on him, and she talked to him and said she thought he was ok (aka, this totally isn't like a suicidal issue), with a good plan for the afternoon that involved being outside a bit (mow lawn, work on yard, have beer).  We have another friend that doesn't work full-time right now that will call on him in about another hour or two and see how he's doing and if he wants to talk.  I work in a fairly open office (a "soft" office with no cap to the roof and thus no sound proofing) so I can't really talk to him much myself while at the office.

CommonCents

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2014, 12:12:28 PM »
Have you seen this post on Captain Awkward? 

http://captainawkward.com/2011/11/05/question-130-my-partner-is-depressed-and-i-am-drowning/

It might not all apply, but the advice is aimed at someone whose partner is suffering depression, and there are a lot of ideas in the comments, too.  I hope that your husband will find himself in a place where he can reach out for some help soon.  As other people in the thread have said, don't forget to take care of yourself in all this too!

Oh, reading through the comments reminded me of one reason he's probably resistant to therapy.  He had to go when he was 8 when hhis parents divorced, and it didn't go well.  In fact, he got so frustrated at one point by the ridiculous counseling sessions we had do before getting married, he basically walked out of them at one point (which then required explaining to the pastor the issue).  I didn't think the counseling was much of a big deal, as it was pretty much all stuff we had talked about before at various times ourselves (some helpful like "rate 1-4 your priority for these "things" like nice cars to AC to time with family, and some less helpful, like "draw a picture of your family" - which he refused to do), but for some reason it triggered something for him.

HattyT

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Re: Do you have a depressed family member?
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2014, 09:00:31 AM »
Vitual hugs.
You are trying so much, have done all the obvious things...and then some.
Please give yourself credit for that.
Make sure you support yourself.  It’s depressing dealing with a depressed person.
He may be too far gone for some of these suggestions, but these are some things that have helped me,  Might they help you?

Might he consider acupuncture?  I’ve found it to be helpful with both physical and mental health.  He wouldn’t have to admit to seeing a shrink or a doctor.  An acupuncturist may also be able to alert him to some health issues that have been percolating for awhile.

St. Johns Wort
exercise
Ted Talks on YouTube and/or www.ted.com
    Jane McGonigal has one on how she created a computer game to pull herself out of depression
    Elizabeth Gilbert, Dan Gilbert have good ones too

I’d discourage having kids with such a man.  If your biological clock is ticking so loudly, and motherhood is really important to you, let that inform your decisions about how long you can afford to give him to get better.  If you still want time to be a single mother on your own without a depressed person to take care of, fight with, worry over his alone time with your kid, and more you will have to make some tough decisions.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!