Author Topic: Coronavirus Weekly Update  (Read 121928 times)

kenmoremmm

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #850 on: January 13, 2022, 01:21:57 AM »
I've worn a single N95 mask for at least 50 days. As long as you're not playing in dirt, it stays pretty clean.

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #851 on: January 13, 2022, 02:27:29 AM »
I have a mask question and this is a thread full of people who know their medicine, so here goes.

Stores finally have N95 masks in stock.  But when I look at the descriptions they are for dust, construction, asbestos, stuff like that (from online description 3M™ N95 Sanding and Fiberglass Respirator helps protect against mold, granular pesticides, allergens and dust).  Are they still the N95s that are good for Covid?

I do have some KN95s but the fit is so bad I don't see much point in wearing them. My surgical masks altered to fit well are more useful.
FFP3 is the standard in the UK for medical staff dealing with covid patients.  The masks do need to be fitted properly.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #852 on: January 13, 2022, 06:50:10 AM »
Thanks all.  The issue with buying masks is you can't try them on beforehand.  So I could buy a bunch of different brands before I found one that fit.

I have some N95s from the before-times that I bought for mixing dyes.  The dyes are not toxic, but the danger is in their tiny particulate size.  The masks get worn for much less than an hour at a time and are then not worn for a few to many days (I don't go out much in public) and still look pretty good.  But the elastics are starting to go.  I am looking at N95s that look pretty much the same shape as the ones I have, because I know they fit well.  So if they are suitable (I figured they were, but really wanted to be sure) I will go that route.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #853 on: January 13, 2022, 07:15:16 AM »
I still feel Australia has a huge advantage.  They have the knowledge of good treatments that we didn't, time to stockpile equipment, and healthcare workers who aren't already completely burned out as we hit new peak numbers.
We've got enormous problems. Probably like the rest of the world has had, but maybe not. Our health system is really under strain, but you've heard it all before.

Because we've been rigorous in testing, truck drivers have been being tested every few days (5? whatever), and if they're positive, they've been rested. We currently have 40% of all truck drivers off the road, so warehouses are full, but goods can't be transported to shops, so a lot of shops are running out of things. It's summer, so we're harvesting, but there aren't many fruit pickers, and there aren't trucks to transport fresh fruit and vegetables from farms. A lot of shops are closing because their staff are all positive. They're changing the rules, so truck drivers can drive while positive, and doctors and nurses can work while positive...

I leave you with these little graphs from our daily government covid19 report
https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022/01/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-13-january-2022.pdf

Dunno about other countries, but that chart isn't right for Canada.  Here in Canada we've largely stopped testing for covid.  If you think you have the disease, you cannot get a PCR test or be entered into our official data - just stay home and hope you don't die.  We're only doing testing on high risk folks and those admitted to the hospital.  I'd expect that our real numbers of infected are at minimum 5-10x higher than reported.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #854 on: January 13, 2022, 07:17:37 AM »
Thanks all.  The issue with buying masks is you can't try them on beforehand.  So I could buy a bunch of different brands before I found one that fit.

I have some N95s from the before-times that I bought for mixing dyes.  The dyes are not toxic, but the danger is in their tiny particulate size.  The masks get worn for much less than an hour at a time and are then not worn for a few to many days (I don't go out much in public) and still look pretty good.  But the elastics are starting to go.  I am looking at N95s that look pretty much the same shape as the ones I have, because I know they fit well.  So if they are suitable (I figured they were, but really wanted to be sure) I will go that route.

If you have good fitting masks with old elastics, just put some superglue and a couple stitches into an appropriate sized elastic band.  I've been doing this with some older n95s that I've got and it works fine.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #855 on: January 13, 2022, 07:35:10 AM »
Thanks all.  The issue with buying masks is you can't try them on beforehand.  So I could buy a bunch of different brands before I found one that fit.

I have some N95s from the before-times that I bought for mixing dyes.  The dyes are not toxic, but the danger is in their tiny particulate size.  The masks get worn for much less than an hour at a time and are then not worn for a few to many days (I don't go out much in public) and still look pretty good.  But the elastics are starting to go.  I am looking at N95s that look pretty much the same shape as the ones I have, because I know they fit well.  So if they are suitable (I figured they were, but really wanted to be sure) I will go that route.

If you have good fitting masks with old elastics, just put some superglue and a couple stitches into an appropriate sized elastic band.  I've been doing this with some older n95s that I've got and it works fine.

Oh I could easily do that.  I sew, I have a box full of elastic.  I was thinking that if I have worn them enough that the elastic is going, how much degradation has the mask had?  Because the masks themselves look fine.  But am I going to be able to see microscopic issues? No.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #856 on: January 13, 2022, 07:43:25 AM »
Thanks all.  The issue with buying masks is you can't try them on beforehand.  So I could buy a bunch of different brands before I found one that fit.

I have some N95s from the before-times that I bought for mixing dyes.  The dyes are not toxic, but the danger is in their tiny particulate size.  The masks get worn for much less than an hour at a time and are then not worn for a few to many days (I don't go out much in public) and still look pretty good.  But the elastics are starting to go.  I am looking at N95s that look pretty much the same shape as the ones I have, because I know they fit well.  So if they are suitable (I figured they were, but really wanted to be sure) I will go that route.

If you have good fitting masks with old elastics, just put some superglue and a couple stitches into an appropriate sized elastic band.  I've been doing this with some older n95s that I've got and it works fine.

Oh I could easily do that.  I sew, I have a box full of elastic.  I was thinking that if I have worn them enough that the elastic is going, how much degradation has the mask had?  Because the masks themselves look fine.  But am I going to be able to see microscopic issues? No.

I was replacing the bands on old masks that I had had in the garage from some house renovations ages ago (the mask apparently doesn't expire but the elastic will crack/break).  My understanding was that the material of the mask doesn't really wear out with age or use (I mean, I guess they would if you were poking holes in them or something), but I may be wrong on that.

PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #857 on: January 13, 2022, 07:43:33 AM »
Long covid will be an issue. It is real. The question is how long does it last, and more specifically what is the distribution curve of that time?

There are also a few things to separate out:
Long-term effects from severe COVID that caused acute lung injury or ARDS. This is potentially on top of any other effects from less-severe cases. These people will never have full respiratory capacity due to the fibrosis in their lungs. Even if they didn't use their full respiratory capacity anyway (couch potato), it may not have as deleterious effects but they will notice it.

Long-term effects from mild/moderate COVID without permanent lung injury. We are seeing a variety of neurologic (especially autonomic nervous system) effects resulting in dysregulation of heart rate and blood pressure. While not life-threatening, they can cause significant distress due to the unpredictability and feeling of almost passing out. In addition, there is post-encephalitis condition being seen in some people leading to decreased concentration and memory recall issues. While less common, these can be quite debilitating.

Secondary effects from deconditioning as a result of prolonged respiratory problems and/or autonomic dysregulation - it is hard to exercise regularly with these symptoms for obvious reasons, and this will lead to muscle loss along with weight gain.


The big question that we have not yet answered is the first one: how long does this last on average, and what is the longest it lasts? Permanent deconditioning from lung injury is expected, but the others are big unknowns.

To add another layer on this - normal coronaviruses rarely cause severe complications like this. Is omicron more similar in behavior to these, or more similar to SARS/MERS behavior? This is a separate (but likely related) issue from how severe the short-term effects are.

Only time (and good data) will tell.


Observations on Omicron vs. other strains:

Cases in Houston remain astronomical (10k per day!), but the % positive is starting to decline, as expected. Approximately 250,000 positive cases have occurred since the beginning of December in the Houston area alone (or 6% of the population).

Hospitalization in the Houston area has plateaued (for 2 weeks now it has been at slightly above the peak seen during the Delta surge). Unfortunately this does not seem to be budging downwards yet, but should in the next week (since the case % positive rate is decreasing).

We have similar number of non-ICU patients hospitalized as at the delta peak. This shows signs of plateauing, which suggests that we may have reached a steady-state equilibrium of admissions and discharges. This is in line with less severity of omicron vs. delta, but is still worse than prior non-delta variants. Most of these patients should be discharged rather than going to the ICU, and this will decrease in 2-3 weeks since length of hospitalization is shorter with omicron.

The proportion of ICU to non-ICU is lower, again indicating less severity. This has also plateaued, but at a lower level than delta or prior variants. This will take the longest time to decline.

The death rate from hospitalization with COVID-19 has finally decreased to below 10%. On a sobering note, over 110,000 hospitalizations have occurred in the Houston area alone since the start of the pandemic.

Overall summary: omicron is less severe than delta, probably slightly less than alpha or other variants, but is not a walk in the park for unvaccinated.

For vaccinated people, this seems to be like a moderate flu (tired/coughing for a few days, then resolved). This is the optimal scenario for us, as it will likely reduce future outbreaks (barring yet another major mutation event that is resistant to both anti-Delta and anti-Omicron antibodies) while not inflicting excess suffering on the unvaccinated.

And to add to this, here is an article about the long term effects on the surviving families and friends.
I have mentioned this in a couple of posts before: the full impact of Covid on the unvaxxed population is seriously underestimated.

https://www.ft.com/content/a1b5350a-4dba-40f4-833b-1e35199e2e9b
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 07:47:01 AM by PeteD01 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #858 on: January 13, 2022, 07:45:28 AM »
Long covid will be an issue. It is real. The question is how long does it last, and more specifically what is the distribution curve of that time?

There are also a few things to separate out:
Long-term effects from severe COVID that caused acute lung injury or ARDS. This is potentially on top of any other effects from less-severe cases. These people will never have full respiratory capacity due to the fibrosis in their lungs. Even if they didn't use their full respiratory capacity anyway (couch potato), it may not have as deleterious effects but they will notice it.

Long-term effects from mild/moderate COVID without permanent lung injury. We are seeing a variety of neurologic (especially autonomic nervous system) effects resulting in dysregulation of heart rate and blood pressure. While not life-threatening, they can cause significant distress due to the unpredictability and feeling of almost passing out. In addition, there is post-encephalitis condition being seen in some people leading to decreased concentration and memory recall issues. While less common, these can be quite debilitating.

Secondary effects from deconditioning as a result of prolonged respiratory problems and/or autonomic dysregulation - it is hard to exercise regularly with these symptoms for obvious reasons, and this will lead to muscle loss along with weight gain.


The big question that we have not yet answered is the first one: how long does this last on average, and what is the longest it lasts? Permanent deconditioning from lung injury is expected, but the others are big unknowns.

To add another layer on this - normal coronaviruses rarely cause severe complications like this. Is omicron more similar in behavior to these, or more similar to SARS/MERS behavior? This is a separate (but likely related) issue from how severe the short-term effects are.

Only time (and good data) will tell.


Observations on Omicron vs. other strains:

Cases in Houston remain astronomical (10k per day!), but the % positive is starting to decline, as expected. Approximately 250,000 positive cases have occurred since the beginning of December in the Houston area alone (or 6% of the population).

Hospitalization in the Houston area has plateaued (for 2 weeks now it has been at slightly above the peak seen during the Delta surge). Unfortunately this does not seem to be budging downwards yet, but should in the next week (since the case % positive rate is decreasing).

We have similar number of non-ICU patients hospitalized as at the delta peak. This shows signs of plateauing, which suggests that we may have reached a steady-state equilibrium of admissions and discharges. This is in line with less severity of omicron vs. delta, but is still worse than prior non-delta variants. Most of these patients should be discharged rather than going to the ICU, and this will decrease in 2-3 weeks since length of hospitalization is shorter with omicron.

The proportion of ICU to non-ICU is lower, again indicating less severity. This has also plateaued, but at a lower level than delta or prior variants. This will take the longest time to decline.

The death rate from hospitalization with COVID-19 has finally decreased to below 10%. On a sobering note, over 110,000 hospitalizations have occurred in the Houston area alone since the start of the pandemic.

Overall summary: omicron is less severe than delta, probably slightly less than alpha or other variants, but is not a walk in the park for unvaccinated.

For vaccinated people, this seems to be like a moderate flu (tired/coughing for a few days, then resolved). This is the optimal scenario for us, as it will likely reduce future outbreaks (barring yet another major mutation event that is resistant to both anti-Delta and anti-Omicron antibodies) while not inflicting excess suffering on the unvaccinated.

And to add to this, here is an article about the long term effects on the survivors.
I have mentioned this in a couple of posts before: the full impact of Covid on the unvaxxed population is seriously underestimated.

https://www.ft.com/content/a1b5350a-4dba-40f4-833b-1e35199e2e9b

That's paywalled for me.  Can you summarize some of the more important points?

PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #859 on: January 13, 2022, 07:57:11 AM »

And to add to this, here is an article about the long term effects on the survivors.
I have mentioned this in a couple of posts before: the full impact of Covid on the unvaxxed population is seriously underestimated.

https://www.ft.com/content/a1b5350a-4dba-40f4-833b-1e35199e2e9b

That's paywalled for me.  Can you summarize some of the more important points?

That´s unfortunate because summarizing doesn´t do the article justice. i had mentioned that one has to multiply the number of deaths and disability cases by the number of people affected by these cases in order to get a sense for the real impact of the catastrophe the unvaxed are causing. The article mentions that and comes up with nine times the number of cases and that does not even include the economic devastation many of the fully recovered survivors and their families are facing.

Here is a quote:

"...For each unvaccinated American death, about nine people lose a grandparent, parent, sibling, spouse or child. Probably the most distressing thing about Covid-19 is its relentless orphaning, which recalls the HIV epidemic in Africa or the Great Flu of 1918..."

Financial Times Magazine, 1/13/2022, The true toll of the antivax movement
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 09:26:48 AM by PeteD01 »

GodlessCommie

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #860 on: January 13, 2022, 08:24:22 AM »
But what are we going to do?    Go into a massive shutdown every winter to control the spread?     This is going to happen again next winter, just like it did in 2019 and 2020...

At this point - probably nothing (besides vax and masks). But we didn't have to be here, and countries that did it better earlier are reaping the benefits now.

I mean, benefits besides not losing the entire population of Alaska, or Wyoming + half of Wyoming again.

MayDay

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #861 on: January 14, 2022, 05:44:19 AM »
N95's that are rated/labeled for construction have passed certain testing required for that usage.

N95's that are rated/labeled for medical have to pass certain tests required for that usage.

By and large IF the manufacturer tested their construction N95 to the medical standards it would pass for everything..... At least the big name brand ones (3M). But the elastic strap for surgery might have a different requirement than for construction. It might have to specifically be resistant to materials used in surgical settings, ie not lose elasticity if in contact with latex or blood or whatever else it might touch.

In other words, but good brands and don't worry about it, you'll be fine.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #862 on: January 14, 2022, 06:08:00 AM »
N95's that are rated/labeled for construction have passed certain testing required for that usage.

N95's that are rated/labeled for medical have to pass certain tests required for that usage.

By and large IF the manufacturer tested their construction N95 to the medical standards it would pass for everything..... At least the big name brand ones (3M). But the elastic strap for surgery might have a different requirement than for construction. It might have to specifically be resistant to materials used in surgical settings, ie not lose elasticity if in contact with latex or blood or whatever else it might touch.

In other words, but good brands and don't worry about it, you'll be fine.

Aah, that makes so much sense.   Since my mask elastics only have to survive stores and walks in parking lots, choices are easy.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #863 on: January 15, 2022, 07:33:04 AM »
But what are we going to do?    Go into a massive shutdown every winter to control the spread?     This is going to happen again next winter, just like it did in 2019 and 2020...

At this point - probably nothing (besides vax and masks). But we didn't have to be here, and countries that did it better earlier are reaping the benefits now.

I mean, benefits besides not losing the entire population of Alaska, or Wyoming + half of Wyoming again.
I'm curious which countries you think are exemplars of good policy and how those policies mapped to their outcomes. For starters, I would set aside islands and China as special cases that may not easily replicate.

For some countries that did well, it's hard to understand what common factor may have led to their success. Some policies, at the very least, clearly delayed infections, but may not have indefinitely prevented them. However, thanks to the subsequent availability of vaccines, those delayed deaths became locked in to the extent the populace embraced vaccination. So looking at pre- and post-vaccine mortality may reveal more about vaccine uptake rates than anything about the detailed policies, without a lot of detailed statistical work.

In some areas, there seemed to be persistently lower infection rates and death rates than other areas: Japan, the Nordics, Canada, some of Southeast Asia. It's possible to squint at that Rorschach test and come up with whatever explanation strikes your fancy.

In other areas, case and death counts are low, but we should have very little confidence in official stats (India, where excess death estimates [at least 4 Alaskas] put the overall per-capita death toll at levels only modestly lower than the US)--and in sub-Saharan Africa, there is also the significant confounding factor of very low median age (~19 years, versus mid-thirties to early forties in Europe + US, etc., and as we know, covid risk increases exponentially with age).

To me, the answer doesn't look simple, and is certainly multi-causal. Policy differences surely play a role, but it does not seem obvious outside of a tiny number of extreme examples that the differences are primarily due to policies versus policies + some combination of one or two dozen other factors, many of which are not directly controllable. I just hope that simplistic analysis doesn't end up justifying policies of questionable value that lead to absurdities like this.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #864 on: January 15, 2022, 11:43:08 AM »
I'm curious which countries you think are exemplars of good policy and how those policies mapped to their outcomes. For starters, I would set aside islands and China as special cases that may not easily replicate.

For some countries that did well, it's hard to understand what common factor may have led to their success. Some policies, at the very least, clearly delayed infections, but may not have indefinitely prevented them. However, thanks to the subsequent availability of vaccines, those delayed deaths became locked in to the extent the populace embraced vaccination. So looking at pre- and post-vaccine mortality may reveal more about vaccine uptake rates than anything about the detailed policies, without a lot of detailed statistical work.

In some areas, there seemed to be persistently lower infection rates and death rates than other areas: Japan, the Nordics, Canada, some of Southeast Asia. It's possible to squint at that Rorschach test and come up with whatever explanation strikes your fancy.

In other areas, case and death counts are low, but we should have very little confidence in official stats (India, where excess death estimates [at least 4 Alaskas] put the overall per-capita death toll at levels only modestly lower than the US)--and in sub-Saharan Africa, there is also the significant confounding factor of very low median age (~19 years, versus mid-thirties to early forties in Europe + US, etc., and as we know, covid risk increases exponentially with age).

To me, the answer doesn't look simple, and is certainly multi-causal. Policy differences surely play a role, but it does not seem obvious outside of a tiny number of extreme examples that the differences are primarily due to policies versus policies + some combination of one or two dozen other factors, many of which are not directly controllable. I just hope that simplistic analysis doesn't end up justifying policies of questionable value that lead to absurdities like this.

I absolutely agree with you that there aren't easy answers, that causes are many, and that policy only takes you so far. Things are even more complicated by the fact that policies changed, and countries that did well could then go down, or vice versa. However, I don't think there is a reason to believe that policy is absolutely useless, and we should just lay down and let the virus run its course.

I also agree that as policies are concerned, pre- and post-vaccine periods are two very distinct phases, and we need to look at death rates in them separately. it is the first phase when policies were most impactful, and where we should look at success and failure stories. Sweden vs the rest of Nordic countries is a very useful example.

For examples of a clear success, I'd look at excess deaths: https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938 (scroll about half-way down). South Korea, Norway and Denmark clearly stand out. Neither is an island (although SK is almost one). Canada, at +5%, and Germany, at +3%, look very good, and I don't see a reason why the US couldn't have been closer to Canada's 5% than to our current +19%. Each percentage point is 40,000 Americans. Even 1 PP reduction would have been very very meaningful.

People like to point out that US has a lot of unhealthy population. This is true, and it is also a policy failure, although the one that far predates Covid. But we had two huge advantages. And by huge, I mean HUGE: access to virtually unlimited amount of money, and high number of ICUs per capita. The third huge advantage was that we were first in line for the most advanced vaccines - and we squandered this advantage in an absolutely spectacular fashion.

We tend to set the latter (low vaccination rate) aside as something beyond anyone's control, but it was not. It was 110% a policy failure of the previous administration - failure so grotesque that we now see it as, essentially, a force of nature. But it was a policy of that administration to downplay the severity of the pandemic, from Day 1 of Covid to the last day it controlled the executive branch. I can't see how a case can be made that it didn't have a very meaningful impact, from people refusing to wear masks to them again refusing to vaccinate. It absolutely, with 100% certainty, pushed our death rate up, in both pre- and post-vaccine phases.

As for the husband on the leash and a fine - yes, it is hilarious, but what is the level of badness of this policy as measured in human lives? You have to judge it against policies that left 10's of thousands of people needlessly dead.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 11:53:29 AM by GodlessCommie »

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #865 on: January 15, 2022, 12:58:30 PM »
I'm curious which countries you think are exemplars of good policy and how those policies mapped to their outcomes. For starters, I would set aside islands and China as special cases that may not easily replicate.

For some countries that did well, it's hard to understand what common factor may have led to their success. Some policies, at the very least, clearly delayed infections, but may not have indefinitely prevented them. However, thanks to the subsequent availability of vaccines, those delayed deaths became locked in to the extent the populace embraced vaccination. So looking at pre- and post-vaccine mortality may reveal more about vaccine uptake rates than anything about the detailed policies, without a lot of detailed statistical work.

In some areas, there seemed to be persistently lower infection rates and death rates than other areas: Japan, the Nordics, Canada, some of Southeast Asia. It's possible to squint at that Rorschach test and come up with whatever explanation strikes your fancy.

In other areas, case and death counts are low, but we should have very little confidence in official stats (India, where excess death estimates [at least 4 Alaskas] put the overall per-capita death toll at levels only modestly lower than the US)--and in sub-Saharan Africa, there is also the significant confounding factor of very low median age (~19 years, versus mid-thirties to early forties in Europe + US, etc., and as we know, covid risk increases exponentially with age).

To me, the answer doesn't look simple, and is certainly multi-causal. Policy differences surely play a role, but it does not seem obvious outside of a tiny number of extreme examples that the differences are primarily due to policies versus policies + some combination of one or two dozen other factors, many of which are not directly controllable. I just hope that simplistic analysis doesn't end up justifying policies of questionable value that lead to absurdities like this.

I absolutely agree with you that there aren't easy answers, that causes are many, and that policy only takes you so far. Things are even more complicated by the fact that policies changed, and countries that did well could then go down, or vice versa. However, I don't think there is a reason to believe that policy is absolutely useless, and we should just lay down and let the virus run its course.

I also agree that as policies are concerned, pre- and post-vaccine periods are two very distinct phases, and we need to look at death rates in them separately. it is the first phase when policies were most impactful, and where we should look at success and failure stories. Sweden vs the rest of Nordic countries is a very useful example.

For examples of a clear success, I'd look at excess deaths: https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938 (scroll about half-way down). South Korea, Norway and Denmark clearly stand out. Neither is an island (although SK is almost one). Canada, at +5%, and Germany, at +3%, look very good, and I don't see a reason why the US couldn't have been closer to Canada's 5% than to our current +19%. Each percentage point is 40,000 Americans. Even 1 PP reduction would have been very very meaningful.

People like to point out that US has a lot of unhealthy population. This is true, and it is also a policy failure, although the one that far predates Covid. But we had two huge advantages. And by huge, I mean HUGE: access to virtually unlimited amount of money, and high number of ICUs per capita. The third huge advantage was that we were first in line for the most advanced vaccines - and we squandered this advantage in an absolutely spectacular fashion.

We tend to set the latter (low vaccination rate) aside as something beyond anyone's control, but it was not. It was 110% a policy failure of the previous administration - failure so grotesque that we now see it as, essentially, a force of nature. But it was a policy of that administration to downplay the severity of the pandemic, from Day 1 of Covid to the last day it controlled the executive branch. I can't see how a case can be made that it didn't have a very meaningful impact, from people refusing to wear masks to them again refusing to vaccinate. It absolutely, with 100% certainty, pushed our death rate up, in both pre- and post-vaccine phases.

As for the husband on the leash and a fine - yes, it is hilarious, but what is the level of badness of this policy as measured in human lives? You have to judge it against policies that left 10's of thousands of people needlessly dead.
There are some clear arguments against taking national-level policies as being decisive in determining the outcomes. See the pair of charts I produced comparing US states to Canadian provinces, and the same versus German states as an example. What surprised me, not looking within other countries at any detail on a regular basis, is how the variation in outcomes extends to sub-national units.

Canadian provinces are almost all better than almost all US states, but look at the difference between Quebec (where prohibition of nighttime walks was considered a wise remedy) and the maritime provinces. Note that the US and Canada both also reflect a clear urban-rural divide. That is one conclusions that seems to hold over all areas, outside of the anomalies mentioned before: high population density areas within countries (e.g. NYC) and entire countries with large, dense primate cities (e.g. London) have higher peak transmission rates during epidemic cycles, whereas exurban/rural areas experience long, lower-intensity epidemics.

Comparing to Germany, there are again striking differences. Saxony would be the 5th worse US state and Thuringia is also clearly elevated above US average death rates. What differences or other conditions existed within Germany to explain such a dramatic variance in outcomes? I really wish 100 apolitical data scientists were sealed in a vault for 2 years to go through all of the data.

You are right about the general health problems in the US, which I attribute to a terrible food-culture. It's clear many ultra-processed foods are chronic toxins, and there is too much focus on macronutrient categories when those, to a first approximation, don't matter. What matters is how whole foods versus ultra-processed foods are metabolized and the effects of potential processing contaminants. But fixing culture is the hardest thing of all.

I'm not sure how you can blame "the previous administration" for low vaccine uptake rates. There were fewer than 6 weeks from the EUA for Pfizer to the end of the Trump administration, and that period of time was dominated by supply constraints and distribution logistics problems more than any policy measure. You may argue Trump's lack of vocal support for vaccination after his term ended (until more recently) is a negative, but that does not constitute any sort of policy failure.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #866 on: January 15, 2022, 01:10:56 PM »
There are some clear arguments against taking national-level policies as being decisive in determining the outcomes. See the pair of charts I produced comparing US states to Canadian provinces, and the same versus German states as an example. What surprised me, not looking within other countries at any detail on a regular basis, is how the variation in outcomes extends to sub-national units.

Canadian provinces are almost all better than almost all US states, but look at the difference between Quebec (where prohibition of nighttime walks was considered a wise remedy) and the maritime provinces. Note that the US and Canada both also reflect a clear urban-rural divide. That is one conclusions that seems to hold over all areas, outside of the anomalies mentioned before: high population density areas within countries (e.g. NYC) and entire countries with large, dense primate cities (e.g. London) have higher peak transmission rates during epidemic cycles, whereas exurban/rural areas experience long, lower-intensity epidemics.

Comparing to Germany, there are again striking differences. Saxony would be the 5th worse US state and Thuringia is also clearly elevated above US average death rates. What differences or other conditions existed within Germany to explain such a dramatic variance in outcomes? I really wish 100 apolitical data scientists were sealed in a vault for 2 years to go through all of the data.

You are right about the general health problems in the US, which I attribute to a terrible food-culture. It's clear many ultra-processed foods are chronic toxins, and there is too much focus on macronutrient categories when those, to a first approximation, don't matter. What matters is how whole foods versus ultra-processed foods are metabolized and the effects of potential processing contaminants. But fixing culture is the hardest thing of all.

I'm not sure how you can blame "the previous administration" for low vaccine uptake rates. There were fewer than 6 weeks from the EUA for Pfizer to the end of the Trump administration, and that period of time was dominated by supply constraints and distribution logistics problems more than any policy measure. You may argue Trump's lack of vocal support for vaccination after his term ended (until more recently) is a negative, but that does not constitute any sort of policy failure.

Very interesting graphs, thank you for compiling them. With no real knowledge of the situation in Germany, I'll point out that both Saxony and Thuringia are in the former East Germany, where politics and economy aren't exactly like in the West (sans Berlin), and forces similar to our alt-right are strong. But then again, no real knowledge.

I, too, would love for data scientists to get to the bottom of it all. We'll get there, eventually, but how soon is anyone's guess.

As to the blame: it was a policy of the previous administration to downplay the severity of the pandemic. Listen to any press-conference, or read this. That resistance to vaccines gained as much traction as it did, and only on the right, is the direct result. As was the resistance to masks and all other containment measures before that.

As for national policies not being decisive, I would speculate that national policies are impactful in proportion to the level of control delegated to the national level. Many (most?) advanced democracies are decentralized to large extent, so it's only natural that regional outcomes will differ with regional policies. They are all still policies, though, I don't see it as an argument for lesser importance of a good policy.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 01:23:24 PM by GodlessCommie »

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #867 on: January 20, 2022, 11:47:10 AM »
US Covid 19 Hospitalizations Update:

Previous USA peak in Covid Hospitalizations was:
January 14 2021 -133,268
January 11 2022 -135,559 and rising >200% in the last 2 weeks
January 20 2022 -158,638 and beginning to flatten out. This is great news. Hopefully not just a blip.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #868 on: January 20, 2022, 09:12:53 PM »
US Covid 19 Hospitalizations Update:

Previous USA peak in Covid Hospitalizations was:
January 14 2021 -133,268
January 11 2022 -135,559 and rising >200% in the last 2 weeks
January 20 2022 -158,638 and beginning to flatten out. This is great news. Hopefully not just a blip.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

In houston we flattened out about 10 days ago (in retrospect) but have yet to see a major decline. The overall length of stay is down, but just so many churning through. Luckily the ICU/regular floor ratio is lower than prior variants.

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #869 on: January 25, 2022, 11:38:08 AM »
US Covid 19 Hospitalizations Update:

Previous USA peak in Covid Hospitalizations was:
January 14 2021 -133,268
---------------------------------
January 11 2022 -135,559 and rising >200% in the last 2 weeks
January 20 2022 -158,638 and beginning to flatten out. This is great news. Hopefully not just a blip.
January 25 2022 -148,521 and appears to have peaked at about 161,000 over the weekend. This is great news.

Deaths per day (anticipate 2 week delay from hospitalizations):
Previous USA peak in Covid Deaths was:
January 26 2021 -3342 deaths per day per 7 day average
----------------------------------
January 11 2022 -1750 deaths per day per 7 day average
January 21 2022 -2162 deaths
January 25 2022 -2181 deaths --> this is still likely to rise in the next couple weeks

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

JGS1980

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #870 on: February 02, 2022, 08:54:49 AM »
US Covid 19 Hospitalizations Update:

Previous USA peak in Covid Hospitalizations was:
January 14 2021 -133,268
---------------------------------
January 11 2022 -135,559 and rising >200% in the last 2 weeks
January 20 2022 -158,638 and beginning to flatten out. This is great news. Hopefully not just a blip.
January 25 2022 -148,521 and appears to have peaked at about 161,000 over the weekend.
February 2 2022 - 136,753 nice trend!

Deaths per day (anticipate 2 week delay from hospitalizations):
Previous USA peak in Covid Deaths was:
January 26 2021 -3342 deaths per day per 7 day average
----------------------------------
January 11 2022 -1750 deaths per day per 7 day average
January 21 2022 -2162 deaths
January 25 2022 -2181 deaths --> this is still likely to rise in the next couple weeks
February 2 2022 -2636 -1 week or so from peak hospitalizations, daily deaths have not peaked yet for Omicron. At this rate, we will his 1,000,000 official deaths in about 30-40 days.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

I would also add that the Unvaccinated : Vaccinated Covid19 death ratio is now 20:1 (it was 13:1 just 30 days ago)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 12:16:12 PM by JGS1980 »

PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #871 on: February 02, 2022, 11:48:20 AM »

What we are seeing right now is actually the beginning of the transition from pandemia to endemicity.
Looking at endemicity from the point of view of tolerance of a certain amount of death and suffering on the part of the general population leads directly to the perception of the severity of the threat.
With the perception of of severity of the disease decreasing, measures of risk mitigation will meet less and less acceptance. This puts vulnerable people at increasing risk. We are currently at the cusp of having highly active therapeutics generally available and these medications allow us to quickly develop strategies to avert serious infections in the immunocompromised. We will likely be able to protect the immunocompromised from serious disease in the near future, removing this large number of patients from the high risk pool leaving it comprised almost exclusively of the unvaccinated.

Ironically, the general population is about to adopt a view of Covid similar to views common on the Covid denier/no-vax side from the very beginning of the pandemic.
I cannot stress enough that the decreasing perception of illness severity on the part of the general population is in lockstep with the acceptance of bad outcomes in an identifiable subgroup, i.e. Covid deniers and the unvaxxed, effectively marginalizing them in the pursuit of return to normality.
Politically and ethically, an administration cannot simply abandon efforts to reach the vulnerable subgroup, no matter how unsympathetic the members of the group are and how ready the general population is to leave them to their own devices. Of course, extremist and populist goverments would not have a problem with that because such governments are always on the lookout for subgroups to ostracize and hurt.

And that is why I hold two apparently contradictory positions:

1. getting the vaccine is a personal choice but not getting it may require acceptance of some inconveniences in daily life

2. vaccine mandates are necessary while knowing that universal compliance is impossible to achieve.

I am certain that the current administration knows perfectly well that the bogging down of mandates in the legal system was unavoidable and that they were actually to be expected. It is also very clear that the federal mandates are achieving what could reasonably be expected to be achieved by simply starting the debate about "mandates". It is a simple case of advancing your goals just by having a debate without any expectation to win the debate.
The debate about mandates has been going on for many weeks and will keep going and here is an incomplete list of what the "mandates" are accomplishing.


The introduction of federal workforce vaccine requirements and the ongoing debate about vaccine "mandates":

1) is giving cover to employers to introduce their own requirements and inconveniences

2) is giving cover to unvaxxed individuals who may be under social pressures to not getting vaccinated or who have spouted antivaxx sentiments before and now have an excuse to get vaccinated while saving face
 
3) is leading to vaccinations in countless people who do not have strong opinions about vaccinations, i.e. fence sitters and procrastinators etc, and have not received them for a variety of reasons but needed a nudge

4) will be giving cover to the government against any accusations that they did not do everything in their power to reach high risk populations, and this is independent of the extent to which the courts and state legislatures allow the efforts to proceed.

Now about number 4. The administration is under pressure to demonstrate that it did everything possible to mitigate the pandemic impact on vulnerable and disadvantaged populations and everything possible is, in a liberal democracy, what is allowed under the law and the constitution and the courts are the place where the limits of executive power are established. I would be the first to accuse the government of abandonment if they did not test the limits in the federal court system. Obviously, after all efforts regarding mandates have been exhausted and nothing more can be done, the stage is set for abandonment of the remaining vaccine resistant populations to their own devices and alignment with the general public sentiment which is trending strongly towards perception of Covid as not much worse than the flu; which happens to be close to the truth for fully immunized people.
Luckily, the majority of the unvaxxed appear to ingest anything whatsoever once they feel sick, giving the administration another opening in trying to contain the catastrophe among the unvaxxed with the new antiviral drugs.

Now about the apparently decreased severity of Covid caused by Omicron. This discussion is marked by confusion and it might be time to clarify a few things.
In a certain sense this discussion is about the virulence of the coronavirus as manifested in its different variants. The problem here is that virulence is not a straightforward concept and, without a bit of background knowledge, the public discourse fails to make sense.

First we have to acknowledge that there are different meanings of the term
virulence depending on who uses the term (or a synonymous term) under which circumstances and with which intent. The reason why virulence is not a straightforward concept is because in its original meaning the virulence of a pathogen is simply a measure of the ability of a pathogen to cause disease or death. In a contolled laboratory environment in which virulence ist measured by the effect of a pathogen on a standardized host organism and the change of those effects in response to alterations of pathogen. If a particular feature of a pathogen results in a differential effect on virulence based on the absence or presence of said feature (for example absence or presence of a capsule in some bacteriae renders them either harmless or  dangerous), the feature is then called a virulence factor.
In the laboratory with a standardized host organism, virulence thus appears solely determined by the pathogen. This is untrue in the real world where cases of infection are drawn from non-standardized populations and where the definition of virulence, number of cases / number of disease and death, reasserts itself as showing the virulence in the real world is just as dependent on the population from which the cases are drawn as on the pathogen itself.

The closest the public discourse comes to the scientific meaning of virulence is this:

1. the effect of a new variant on severity and frequency of severe disese and death in the unvaccinated population. This is the closest to the lab setting as the unvaxxed population is somewhat standardized because it has never encountered the pathogen. Unfortunately, at this point there is no good way to remove the never infected from the other unvaccinated in the equation, making it very difficult to arrive at an accurate estimate. The presence of some previously infected will cause underestimation of virulence to an unknown degree. This is why there is such a delay in determining if Omicron is less dangerous than other variants - the error lies in the same direction and on top of it, everybodey wants to hear that it is less dangerous.


The second way the term virulence, or equivalent, is used I would call apparent virulence, and this apparent virulence is of great importance for policy decisions:

2. Apparent virulence is simply the number of all cases in a geographic area divided by the number of cases of severe disease and death. Apparent virulence is the most important measure going into health care resource management assessments.
Apparent virulence is a measure of the impact of the pathogen on health care resources in a particular area and depends not only on the actual virulence (1., above) of the pathogen but also on the immune status of the population.
Apparent virulence therefore does not tell us much about the pathogen when the immune status of the population is not well known, but is of immense practical value for medical resource management.


The third meaning in which the term virulence or equivalent is used I would call perceived virulence:

3. Perceived virulence is the most politically charged and arguably the most important sense in which comparative disease severity of the Omicron variant is discussed. Perceived virulence (or threat perception) is what was manipulated from day one of the pandemic by political actors and is still the focus of political activity.
Covid denial, for example, is just the extreme to which downplaying disease severity (virulence) can be pushed. The extent to which the perceived virulence of the coronavirus has been successfully lowered by political actors and their multiplicators (mostly on the right) in susceptible populations can be seen in the surprise many unvaxxed Covid victims show when they get really sick and end up dying from a disease they were convinced to be largely a hoax.
Perceived virulence is now decreasing rapidly among the vaccinated as the conviction that those who are still unvaxxed cannot be reached (which is technically certainly untrue but practically likely true). The administration is actively working on all levels to support that notion and faces no resistance whatsoever as downplaying Covid is what the unvaxxed are doing all day long and the rest of the population is ready to join the unvaxxed in that stance.
Unfortunately, for the unvaxxed, the Omicron variant so far appears to be less virulent than Delta but of similar virulence as the original virus. Two years ago, the world shut down for a virus with that virulence but today we call it a mild form. This cannot be explained by anything but the lowered perceived virulence and actual apparent virulence in the vaccinated population. In other words, the unvaccinated are on their own and we can be assured that everything possibe up to "mandates" was done to help them.
Of course, this is not good news for health care resources stretched to the limit and it is not the end of what the current administration has on their plate.
The fact that majority opinion is aligning with opinions on the unvaxxed side now also means that the issues with downplaying the pandemic on the basis of ones own risk for a bad outcome are now appearing everywhere. And that is because perceived virulence is ultimately an assessment of ones own risk of a bad outcome  plus a common good consideration that is now excluding the still unvaxxed.
The readiness of the general public to leave the unvaxxed in the dust and the capability of societies to tolerate mass casualties should not be underestimated. Just think how easily we tolerate tens of thousands of traffic deaths and injuries per year for te sake of transportation. We would never tolerate a death toll like that if microwave ovens were zapping us on a regular basis in exchange for some hot beferage. But a couple of hundred thousand deaths a year from Covid in the hinterlands in exchange for return to normality while not being in much danger oneself would be tolerated quite well - especially as the unvaxxed are willing to collaborate in their own deception. As long as the stakes are appropriate, an enormous number of deaths and much misery will be tolerated.
A decrease of perceived virulence of a pathogen in the general population is also the best marker for te transitioning of a pandemic to the endemic state as it is an attitude adjustment based on a risk benefit assessment. I find it fascinating to observe this in real time.


There are many moving parts but the general direction appears clearer by the day. It is obvious that we are moving toward a situation where a susceptible population that is disadvantaged for social reasons suffers the brunt of a disease transitioning to the endemic phase for the rest of the population. The fact that the behavior of this risk group does not make them sympathetic should not distract from the duty of government and other entities to find ways to mitigate the effects of the disease. Some interventions will also help decompress the health care systems such as large scale programs for preemptive antiviral treatments etc. as well as travelling health care resources to absorb local spikes and need to be vigorously pursued. I personally find it encouraging that the unvaxxed appear to be ready to swallow anything as soon as they get a sore throat - so the antiviral strategies have a chance to work.

All that said, another variant can change things but at this point I consider it likely that Omicron will result in a different immunologic situation on a society level than before, thus heralding a new phase in the coronavirus saga.

I posted the above about four weeks ago and things have been moving rapidly.

There was a White House meeting with the state governors where there was broad bipartisan agreement to "move away from the pandemic mindset", to paraphrase the general mood at the meeting. The president did still emphasize that there is a lot more work to be done to deal with regional hot spots etc. - but that is his job to say that.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/politics/governors-pandemic-biden/index.html


Anecdotally, I have been informed that tertiary care centers in at least one of the largest metropolitan regions have begun to perform major elective surgeries which require reservations of ICU beds. These beds are not available for transfers of Covid patients from other facilities.
I have also been informed that Covid patients in refractory respiratory failure are now routinely declared not to be candidates for ECMO (In my opinion, this policy change was overdue as only very few benefit from ECMO support). The restriction of ECMO to more appropriate candidates will decrease overall suffering and will absolutely decrease the number of transfers in, thus relieving some of the burden. These things do not happen unless there is broad political and public support in favor of them.
And as this is the USA, there certainly is great tolerance for restricted access to medical care to identifiable subgroups in society, particularly among conservatives. Ironically, this time the affected tend to be conservative rural residents who are facing the greatest health crisis in modern times all the while access to advanced medical care is becoming more difficult for them.   


And finally, here is an article from The Atlantic explaining in more detail how to look at and think about "endemicity".

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/02/endemicity-means-nothing/621423/


Of course, the big question is when one should stop mask wearing and other precautions.
For me, the answer is that I will continue wearing a mask and will not change any other precautions I routinely take until protocols and antivirals are available to treat the immunocompromised and other high risk individuals preemptively upon exposure or early in the course of the disease.
 

Abe

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #872 on: February 02, 2022, 07:29:35 PM »
Thanks for that good review of the current situation. I would say there are antivirals available now for both immunocompetent and immunocompromised populations. Their efficacy at least at my hospital has been high - though we have quite a few covid+ hospitalized, mortality has remained low.

Important thing to note is that mortality isn’t the only outcome - many patients with severe covid, regardless of strain, have long-term and short-term complications.

The exceptions to the low mortality comment are leukemia/lymphoma patients undergoing stem cell transplant and patients living with untreated HIV. They continue to suffer an undue burden, and are the true marginalized in this situation as they don’t have much of a choice.

The unvaccinated immunocomponent population absolutely have a choice, and are being marginalized only in their minds. In the wake of the most extensive public health campaign in human history, expenditure of billions of dollars and millions of lives, they just choose to stick their heads in the sand. I have no sympathy for them at this point (except for their dependents’ suffering).


PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #873 on: February 04, 2022, 08:07:46 AM »
Thanks for that good review of the current situation. I would say there are antivirals available now for both immunocompetent and immunocompromised populations. Their efficacy at least at my hospital has been high - though we have quite a few covid+ hospitalized, mortality has remained low.

Yes, the antivirals appear to be rather effective but we are still far away from being able to roll out programs that make testing and early treatment universally available. I believe that acceptance of such services would be pretty good as the unvaxxed typically have no problem with medical interventions once thye are symptomatic - and yes many would gladly accept vaccination if it were possible at that point.
 

Important thing to note is that mortality isn’t the only outcome - many patients with severe covid, regardless of strain, have long-term and short-term complications.

Yes, there is a high likelihood that we will be facing a very high burden of chronic disease and we are nowhere near being able to meet that future need.


...

The unvaccinated immunocomponent population absolutely have a choice, and are being marginalized only in their minds. In the wake of the most extensive public health campaign in human history, expenditure of billions of dollars and millions of lives, they just choose to stick their heads in the sand. I have no sympathy for them at this point (except for their dependents’ suffering).


I can´t say that I have a lot of sympathy with the unvaxxed; but I am not a Republican and so do not consider access to health care as something that should be contingent on "good behavior" or the ability to pay.
My position is that universal access to affordable healthcare (of course including reproductive health with everything that entails) is a basic human right and as such non-negotiable.
And as for the "heads in the sand", that is how many belonging to this largely blue collar demographic have lived even before the pandemic.
The socioeconomic situation of these people is often a indebted paycheck to paycheck situation with health insurance, if they have it at all, provided through employment and that is liable to disappear promptly should the employee get seriously ill.
These people do not have a positive view of the healthcare system as any contact with a serious issue may result in bankruptcy.
The arrival of Covid instilled panic in this population because illness and the subsequent financial distress is the biggest risk to them and their families. And sure enough, they were eating up anything that suggested that the virus was not a big deal because it confirmed their preexisting attitude. By the time the vaccines came around they were so settled in their denial that it was easy for the profiteers to spread vaccine disinformation and fear of vaccine side effects.
So that is what got us here: a rural, largely blue collar population living in fear of the potential catastrophic financial impact of any health crisis (and in denial that it could happen to them) due to the lack of reliable and affordable access to health care, that had to confront Covid. I think it would have been naive to expect anything else than that same attitude prevailing in their dealing with the pandemic. And sure enough, they try to stay away from the healthcare system (that includes vaccinations) as far as possible until they get sick (and even then, they may go for the horsepaste first).
I see the unvaxxed population as comprised in good part by people who have been tricked by politicians and other profiteers over a long time.
The absence of affordable and secure access to healthcare left many with not getting sick and, quite literally, a reliance on prayer as their only strategies - with predictable results.
On the other hand, I have found that universal access to affordable healthcare including Medicaid expansion is rather popular among a good chunk of conservatives. Also, elimination of tax subsidies for employer sponsored health in order to give workers more freedom can be an interesting discussion.
In any case, there are a number of things that are popular, or could become popular enough, in this demographic to effect some changes that may put us in a better position for the next pandemic. And most of those changes would involve improved access to affordable healthcare.




 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 08:46:42 AM by PeteD01 »

DarkandStormy

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GodlessCommie

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #875 on: February 04, 2022, 03:07:53 PM »

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #876 on: February 04, 2022, 03:25:40 PM »
TL;DR: masks work

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7106e1.htm


I'm a proponent of mask wearing, but that study doesn't seem too convincing to me.

It doesn't take much creativity to expect that someone who always wears a proper fitting N95 is much more concerned about safety than someone who goes without a mask . . . and thus is much less likely to put themselves in situations where they're likely to get exposure.  That alone is a pretty huge confounding variable.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #877 on: February 04, 2022, 06:46:01 PM »
The study itself says that much: "The findings in this report are subject to at least eight limitations. First, this study did not account for other preventive behaviors that could influence risk for acquiring infection, including adherence to physical distancing recommendations. In addition, generalizability of this study is limited to persons seeking SARS-CoV-2 testing and who were willing to participate in a telephone interview, who might otherwise exercise other protective behaviors."

I would argue, though, that the skew you posit is not the only possible one. Few people can afford to not expose themselves at all. So N-95 wearers may be regularly exposed to *more* risk, which may have driven them to use N-95 in the first place. I imagine that medical professionals would be over-represented here.

On the other side of the same argument, someone who can live in a way that doesn't lead to much exposure (as yours truly) has no incentive to go overboard with very high quality masks (as yours truly).
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 06:50:26 PM by GodlessCommie »

JGS1980

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #878 on: February 09, 2022, 08:17:53 AM »
US Covid 19 Hospitalizations Update:

Previous USA peak in Covid Hospitalizations was:
January 14 2021 -133,268
---------------------------------
January 11 2022 -135,559 and rising >200% in the last 2 weeks
January 20 2022 -158,638 and beginning to flatten out. This is great news. Hopefully not just a blip.
January 25 2022 -148,521 and appears to have peaked at about 161,000 over the weekend.
February 2 2022 - 136,753 nice trend!
February 9 2022 - 107,623 yay!! 50% down from peak.

Deaths per day (anticipate 2 week delay from hospitalizations):
Previous USA peak in Covid Deaths was:
January 26 2021 -3342 deaths per day per 7 day average
----------------------------------
January 11 2022 -1750 deaths per day per 7 day average
January 21 2022 -2162 deaths
January 25 2022 -2181 deaths --> this is still likely to rise in the next couple weeks
February 2 2022 -2636 -1 week or so from peak hospitalizations, daily deaths have not peaked yet for Omicron. At this rate, we will his 1,000,000 official deaths in about 30-40 days.
February 9 2022 -2565 -still pretty high [one Sept 11th attack per day]. Not sure if peak has been reached or if this is a statistical blip.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

Unvaccinated : Vaccinated Covid19 death ratio is now 20:1 (it was 13:1 just 30 days ago)

PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #879 on: February 09, 2022, 09:38:22 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 09:42:43 AM by PeteD01 »

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #880 on: February 09, 2022, 09:51:14 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
Thanks for your interesting input in the past @PeteD01 - but what are your thoughts, are we 'out of the woods'?

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #881 on: February 09, 2022, 09:58:19 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
Thanks for your interesting input in the past @PeteD01 - but what are your thoughts, are we 'out of the woods'?

It's barely more than one September 11th attack worth of deaths a day now.  I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Phenix

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #882 on: February 09, 2022, 10:18:21 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
Thanks for your interesting input in the past @PeteD01 - but what are your thoughts, are we 'out of the woods'?

It's barely more than one September 11th attack worth of deaths a day now.  I don't see what all the fuss is about.

@OtherJen is that you?  Got to make sure we compare the # of deaths from a virus to the # of deaths from the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
@GuitarStv didn't you just call out a poster for comparing Ottawa to Portland?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 10:21:49 AM by Phenix »

PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #883 on: February 09, 2022, 10:32:28 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
Thanks for your interesting input in the past @PeteD01 - but what are your thoughts, are we 'out of the woods'?

It's barely more than one September 11th attack worth of deaths a day now.  I don't see what all the fuss is about.

The transition to endemicity has more to do with public acceptance of a certain level of death and disease than with a predetermined level of death and disease.
Public acceptance of the current (but falling) toll of the plague is facilitated by successful "othering" of the victims of well funded and profitable disinformation campaigns.
The unvaxxed are dying now in a 20 to 1 ratio when compared to the unvaccinated and that is apparently good enough for the vaxxed majority to stop caring about the unvaxxed - especially because they apparently agree with being slaughtered by the plague..
This is how pandemics end - the risk has become manageable for the majority of individuals and the threat for major economic disruption has receded (the recent unexpectedly good job report is a good signal for that).

JGS1980

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #884 on: February 09, 2022, 10:35:02 AM »
+1

HPstache

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #885 on: February 09, 2022, 10:37:19 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis

Please let this be true.  I don't care how idiotic it looks to believe that NOW is the time to get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, but I'll take it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #886 on: February 09, 2022, 11:44:57 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
Thanks for your interesting input in the past @PeteD01 - but what are your thoughts, are we 'out of the woods'?

It's barely more than one September 11th attack worth of deaths a day now.  I don't see what all the fuss is about.

@OtherJen is that you?  Got to make sure we compare the # of deaths from a virus to the # of deaths from the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
@GuitarStv didn't you just call out a poster for comparing Ottawa to Portland?

I disagree with comparing the BLM protests in Portland and those going on in Canada right now for a variety of reasons (different country, very different protest goals, different amount of violence, different tactics by police, different amount of property damage, etc.).

Comparing the dead due to covid with the dead due to 9/11 seems more of an apples to apples comparison to me.  After September 11th, the US radically changed the way security works in airports permentantly.  And we all accepted it.  It's weird to me that so many people are OK with things turning back to exactly the way they were before the pandemic when the number of dead is so much higher than with the terror attacks.  But if you want to explain why this is a terrible comparison to make, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #887 on: February 09, 2022, 11:51:58 AM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
Thanks for your interesting input in the past @PeteD01 - but what are your thoughts, are we 'out of the woods'?

It's barely more than one September 11th attack worth of deaths a day now.  I don't see what all the fuss is about.

@OtherJen is that you?  Got to make sure we compare the # of deaths from a virus to the # of deaths from the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
@GuitarStv didn't you just call out a poster for comparing Ottawa to Portland?

I'm sorry, who are you?

PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #888 on: February 09, 2022, 02:15:35 PM »
I thought this would come soon, but it came even sooner than I expected:

"Fauci: US exiting 'full-blown' pandemic phase of coronavirus crisis"

He said: “As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of Covid-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated. There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”


https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/593456-fauci-us-exiting-full-blown-pandemic-phase-of-coronavirus-crisis
Thanks for your interesting input in the past @PeteD01 - but what are your thoughts, are we 'out of the woods'?

It depends what "out of the woods" is supposed to mean.
This is my second pandemic. By the time I entered internal medicine training, the majority had already realized that the threat of AIDS was not serious for white heterosexuals that weren´t using drugs. For them, the pandemic had been over for some time at this point.
The following year (1995), AIDS deaths peaked. I was working in one of the busiest hospitals in the US when it came to AIDS and we had entire wards filled with very sick and dying AIDS patients that were taken care of by physician extenders to decompress the housestaff service.
Obviously, the AIDS pandemic was not over, neither for us nor for these patients.
For them, the beginning of the end of the pandemic came the following year with the advent of HAART (highly active antiretroviral therapy) and the death wards quickly emptied out.
I think, just as back then, everyone will come out of the pandemic mindset at their own pace; and what Fauci said today is about as close as we are going to get to the bell being rung that it is over.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #889 on: February 09, 2022, 07:31:13 PM »
The unvaxxed are dying now in a 20 to 1 ratio when compared to the unvaccinated and that is apparently good enough for the vaxxed majority to stop caring about the unvaxxed - especially because they apparently agree with being slaughtered by the plague.

I’m recovered, vaccinated, boosted, and heck, I suspect I had Omicron a couple weeks ago. I’m ready for us to declare the pandemic over and get back to life. In most respects, our family already has. What’s strange to me is that the people most in denial, most opposed to vaccinations, most opposed to masking and distancing… that these are the people dying at a rate that is at least an order of magnitude higher than those of us who have taken precautions. If they’re not willing to protect themselves, then should the rest of us continue to take life altering precautions?  At some point we either have to choose choose the France approach and ostracize them, or the Denmark approach and just open fully.

What sucks is that there are at-risk people who may not make it through Covid alive. My cousins’ father was one of these and passed last week after contracting Covid. It makes me sad, but I’m also grateful that we were able to get together last summer, that he had taken the last year or so (since vaccination) to travel and see old friends, that he had seen three of his grandchildren marry during the pandemic. Would it have been better to miss all those things and isolate at home and maybe die of an underlying condition? Or live life to the end and die on vacation?  There is not one right answer to that, but at least I’m confident he lived the right answer for him.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #890 on: February 09, 2022, 07:44:56 PM »
At some point we either have to choose choose the France approach and ostracize them, or the Denmark approach and just open fully.

It's mostly nitpicking on my part, so please don't take it personally. Just wanted to point out that Denmark opened up fully after hitting 81% fully vaccinated and 62% boosted.

US is at 64% fully vaccinated and 27% boosted.

Denmark's calculus on relative harm of maintaining or ending restrictions is vastly different from ours. I'm not arguing for maintaining restrictions anymore, but if we open fully it won't be Denmark's approach.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 07:46:36 PM by GodlessCommie »

teen persuasion

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #891 on: February 09, 2022, 08:06:45 PM »
Can we at least get ALL the age groups an approved vaccine and time to get fully vaxxed before we declare it done?

I just learned one of my younger patrons had Covid at Christmas, and was hospitalized in January for MIS-C.  She's 4.  Her family was as cautious as possible.  Still no vaccine for her. 

But mask mandates are being lifted, and noisy adults elsewhere are pushing for schools to unmask the kids ASAP.  Yikes.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #892 on: February 09, 2022, 08:18:23 PM »
At some point we either have to choose choose the France approach and ostracize them, or the Denmark approach and just open fully.

It's mostly nitpicking on my part, so please don't take it personally. Just wanted to point out that Denmark opened up fully after hitting 81% fully vaccinated and 62% boosted.

US is at 64% fully vaccinated and 27% boosted.

Denmark's calculus on relative harm of maintaining or ending restrictions is vastly different from ours. I'm not arguing for maintaining restrictions anymore, but if we open fully it won't be Denmark's approach.

You’re absolutely correct on Denmark’s numbers. On top of that, they spent much of the pandemic requiring a negative (saliva) test less than 72 hours old to do anything in public - grocery store, restaurant, school, work. So even though Denmark didn’t have a vaccine mandate, there were reasons to get vaccinated.


RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #893 on: February 09, 2022, 08:36:35 PM »
And people pushing to have the pandemic termed endemic seem to think the "end" in endemic means the end.  No, it just means it is here to stay.  Lots of endemic diseases occur at high levels and are damaging - malaria is a good example.

Our "Freedom Convoy" protesters want an end to masks and vaccine mandates and everything else - yet they are the ones who are now most at risk.  And we know that some of them have Covid, because our wastewater viral levels were consistently decreasing for a while, and then went right back up when the protesters arrived.

PeteD01

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #894 on: February 10, 2022, 07:36:52 AM »
Covid-19 as an Endemic Disease
List of authors.
Eric J. Rubin, M.D., Ph.D., Lindsey R. Baden, M.D., and Stephen Morrissey, Ph.D.

https://www.nejm.org/action/showMediaPlayer?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMdo006443&aid=10.1056%2FNEJMe2201982&area=

Glenstache

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #895 on: February 10, 2022, 09:29:53 AM »
And people pushing to have the pandemic termed endemic seem to think the "end" in endemic means the end.  No, it just means it is here to stay.  Lots of endemic diseases occur at high levels and are damaging - malaria is a good example.

Our "Freedom Convoy" protesters want an end to masks and vaccine mandates and everything else - yet they are the ones who are now most at risk.  And we know that some of them have Covid, because our wastewater viral levels were consistently decreasing for a while, and then went right back up when the protesters arrived.

The bolded needs an exclamation point, and is such an encapsulation of how anger-inducing and simultaneously heartbreaking the downstream effects of covid/vaccine misinformation is.

bacchi

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #896 on: February 10, 2022, 11:05:41 AM »
And people pushing to have the pandemic termed endemic seem to think the "end" in endemic means the end.  No, it just means it is here to stay.  Lots of endemic diseases occur at high levels and are damaging - malaria is a good example.

Our "Freedom Convoy" protesters want an end to masks and vaccine mandates and everything else - yet they are the ones who are now most at risk.  And we know that some of them have Covid, because our wastewater viral levels were consistently decreasing for a while, and then went right back up when the protesters arrived.

The bolded needs an exclamation point, and is such an encapsulation of how anger-inducing and simultaneously heartbreaking the downstream effects of covid/vaccine misinformation is.

The youtube posted by Pete in the Biden thread invokes this feeling well.

https://youtu.be/Ofhb5_QpYyg?t=137

"Slow the testing down, please." And they bought it. It made sense to them.


RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #897 on: February 10, 2022, 05:31:22 PM »
And people pushing to have the pandemic termed endemic seem to think the "end" in endemic means the end.  No, it just means it is here to stay.  Lots of endemic diseases occur at high levels and are damaging - malaria is a good example.

Our "Freedom Convoy" protesters want an end to masks and vaccine mandates and everything else - yet they are the ones who are now most at risk.  And we know that some of them have Covid, because our wastewater viral levels were consistently decreasing for a while, and then went right back up when the protesters arrived.

The bolded needs an exclamation point, and is such an encapsulation of how anger-inducing and simultaneously heartbreaking the downstream effects of covid/vaccine misinformation is.

The youtube posted by Pete in the Biden thread invokes this feeling well.

https://youtu.be/Ofhb5_QpYyg?t=137

"Slow the testing down, please." And they bought it. It made sense to them.

With Omicron our testing has collapsed.  Don't believe any Canadian numbers.  Hospitalizations, yes, cases no.  Saddest is that some provinces apparently have tests given them by the federal government stockpiled, not distributed.  They aren't doing any good in warehouses.

habanero

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #898 on: February 12, 2022, 08:37:54 AM »
You’re absolutely correct on Denmark’s numbers. On top of that, they spent much of the pandemic requiring a negative (saliva) test less than 72 hours old to do anything in public - grocery store, restaurant, school, work. So even though Denmark didn’t have a vaccine mandate, there were reasons to get vaccinated.

I live in Norway (just north of Denmark) and we for all practical purposes scrapped all remaining covid-regulations as of 10 AM today. Story is pretty much same as in Denmark, infection numbers are higher than ever, and in reality much higher than official numbers as PCR testing has been scaled down and you can self-register a positive rapid test if you want to but you are not even really encouraged to do so, so in a sense our health folks haves stopped caring. The booster round is pretty much finished (Im 44 and got mine early January) and very few people end up in hospitals and barely anyone in the ICU anymore. Roughly half of covid patients n hospitals are admitted for another condition, but then test positive and are included in the headline numbers.

If you have a positive test now you are enouraged to stay home for a few days until well, but it's up to you. Kids who test positive can go to school or daycare, but stay home if sick / have fever (like with any condition really). No mask wearing is mandated anywhere and no distancing meaning you can pack 9000 people indoor for a concert (9000 being the capacity of the country's largest indoor concert venue...)

I finally managed to test positve last week and Im frankly surprised it took that long as I have kids in school. Like a minor cold in my case. Omicron is pretty much viewed as a gift over here after the inital worries due to extremely rapid spread but in a well-vaxxed population at least you are much less likely to develop any serious condition.

Noone know what might come around the next corner of course, but so far it's all good.

SunnyDays

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Re: Coronavirus Weekly Update
« Reply #899 on: February 12, 2022, 10:40:47 AM »
My province is rapidly scaling back all restrictions too, largely a political decision due to protests, it appears.  Doctors are saying it's too much too quickly.  The next couple of months should be interesting.  There's little testing now, and positivity rates haven't been reported in about a month, because it's impossible.  Hospitalizations have decreased a bit, but still pretty high and there are anywhere from 2 -12 deaths daily in a population of 1.3 million.  I expect things to worsen for a while after the restrictions lift in mid-March, so I'm still going to be very cautious until I see how things play out.  If another worse variant comes along, things will get hairy, because no one is going to want to go back to any kind of restrictions, so I'm a little concerned about that.