Coronavirus response-Norway and Australia

[By the River]

US media reported that Norway removed all Covid restrictions this weekend and said that the virus will have to be lived with while also reporting that Australia is cracking down with even more restrictions on its people with some harsh videos.  Per the worldometer site latest numbers: (Given that Australia's population is 5x more than Norway) Norway's 7 day average new cases and deaths is 671 and 1 respectively and Australia is 1,702 and 10.    Norway's vaccination rate is reported as a little better than Australia

I know this forum has members in both Australia and Norway; is this the actual facts on the ground?   The countries responses are so different to be unbelievable even though the number of cases and deaths on a per capita basis are relatively close.   

[habanero]

I'm Norwegian.

Cases went up quite a bit when schools reopened after this year's summer holidays and people returned from holidays abroad but the vast majority of cases were in the sub 30s age group and mostly in the sub 18s so almost none of these ended up in the hospitals. Hospitalizations went up a bit (as expected) but eventually stabilized and have now started to go down again. They were never really high the last couple of months though  - significantly lower than during a regular flu season. Think around 70% of hospitalizations are among the unvaccinated and that is almost entirely due to their own stupidity. Vaccines are free and now plentyful and anyone who wants can just walk into a site and get their shot. Uptake in gen pop is extremely high, but much lower in a few immigrant communities (Polish and Somalis in particular) despite lots of efforts by the government to get it up there.

I don't have updated numbers, but the number of 18s and younger who needed hospitalizations was just a small handful (we just quite recently started vaccinated younger than 18s with no underlying conditions, now we do down to 12 years).

Also remember Norway's population is much smaller than Australia's (we're only 5.4 million) and our cities are much smaller, Oslo, the capital only has around 700.000 inhabitants if if you count the greater urban area you are prob looking at like 1.2 million. The 2nd largest has like 250k. A lot of people live in small places, quite a few of which barely had any covid at all to speak of as local outbreaks were pretty easy to handle in small communities and when they happed they were generally smashed in a few days without too much effort.

The Norwegian counts for cases, hospitalizations and deaths are probably as accurate as they can be - it's a small country, one single public health system, lots of testing capacity and so on.

And after ditching AZ quite early on due to a few deaths from it we only use Pfizer and Moderna now which prop also helps compared to other places with similar vax rates.

But yes, all national restrictions  - which frankly were quite few left - were lifted as of this Saturday. There is still the option for local measures if deemed needed, however, our infectious disease act (which predates covid) gives local autoritis quite a lot - probably too much - authority, but that's how it is. If you had landed in our capital at any time the last couple of months you would have no idea that there was a pandemic going on, you can see it, but you need to know what to look for. There is still the odd person wearing face masks, but that's getting quite rare in public space. I've not worn one for several months and I follow local regulations but don't feel any need to put on a show. As a non-US/non-Australian/non-whatever I find the religious belief in mask-wearing on this forum quite bizzarre tbh. As a fun fact when it all hit in March last year pretty much noone wore a face mask at all, but infections dropped to almost zero within a couple of months anyway and didn't go back up when schools reopened etc.

Denmark is pretty much the same as us btw, they were just a few weeks ahead of us. Think they ditched all restrictions like 3 weeks ago.

During the pandemic compliance with regulations has been very high despite some disagreements, but we have very, very few deniers and naysayers and trust in the government is generally very high.

[habanero]

This is the hospitalization numbers for the entire pandemic. As everywhere else, in the beginning before testing capacity was plentiful, these were the only accurate numbers and the only in addition to deaths that can be traced through the entire pandemic. No pretty much noone dies from covid here anymore so noone cares about death numbers at all.

The upper line is hospitalizations, the light blue is patients in ICU care, the purple is number of people in ventilator beds. Im fairly confident ventilator is a subset of ICU numbers.

The first peak is obv when it all started, the 2nd increase and plateau is after last year's summer holidays, the 3rd large increase was when the British/Kent/Alpha variant knocked on the door and the last smaller one is pretty much the delta era.

Apart from last spring peak restrictions were due to the Alpha variant this winter from late jan and onwards. The delta era has not been times of increased restrictions, but delays in easing existing restrictions as the powers that be wanted to get the vax rate up first. It's also part of the story that we have just had an election this month and the current outgoing government was prob quite keen on being the one finally lifting all restrictions, but that said there are hardly any voices who think it's irresponsible to do so now and it's in line with recommendations from our "CDC".

[deborah]

The Australian situation is quite different. We are battling outbreaks in three jurisdictions - ACT, NSW and Victoria. The other states and territories have no cases. The ACT is almost entirely Canberra, our national capital, while Greater Sydney(NSW) and Greater Melbourne (Vic) have most infections and all three cities are currently in lockdown. In other parts of NSW and Vic they are locking down areas for a week each time that area has an outbreak. Yesterday and Friday, all three governments published a roadmap out of lockdown, and it has been compared as being very similar to Norway’s. These jurisdictions expect to open up completely at about the end of the year, and have international travel then.

Australia didn’t start vaccination until very late, and have been severely knobbled by a lack of them. However, we’re assured our supply is fixed, and we’re currently vaccinating at the fifth highest rate in the world. The states with no cases are slower, but they have also started to release roadmaps, and it looks like we’ll all be at the same place by March. We have some very remote communities that have almost no vaccination in those states which will delay things.

TBC

[habanero]

The Australian situation is quite different. We are battling outbreaks in three jurisdictions - ACT, NSW and Victoria. The other states and territories have no cases. The ACT is almost entirely Canberra, our national capital, while Greater Sydney(NSW) and Greater Melbourne (Vic) have most infections and all three cities are currently in lockdown. In other parts of NSW and Vic they are locking down areas for a week each time that area has an outbreak. Yesterday and Friday, all three governments published a roadmap out of lockdown, and it has been compared as being very similar to Norway’s. These jurisdictions expect to open up completely at about the end of the year, and have international travel then.

As a wealthy "western" nation both Australia and NZ are eventually gonna get the vaccine situation sorted out. Bit late due to faults, but it will be ok in the end. But from the (albeit very few) native aussies I know there is some worry that the approach will stick making reopening very hard. When we had a "high" vax rate cases went up a lot due to holidays over and the delta variant. Our health folks were quite chill as hospitalization numbers were rather low and gen pop had no idea of "zero covid". The real test is gonna come when you eventually reopen and cases spike - which they most likely will do - and some get seriously ill and some will die.

We have an aussie guy at work and he openly says that if he hadn't been living here for quite a few years he would have found our approach totally reckless and a massive gamble if he was fed off aussie news. While we have cancelled all restrictions now we've had a lot of 'em and probably Europe's strictest border policy but still nowhere near what Australia and NZ have had. The dynamics have been quite interesting, in the early stages of the pandemic our "CDC" were viewed as the more lax entity while in the (as of now) late/end stage of the pandemic they have been the main institution pushing for a reopening as - in their view - there is no reason to restrict general life and they accept quite a few hospitalizations and deaths because that's a common occurence just that media dosen't generally give a flying fuck about it so noone really cares.

In hindisght we've probably have had too much restrictions. Everyone agrees schools were reopened too late last spring and the general closure orders of non-essential shops this winter is generally viewed as a mistake, but it was decisions made under great uncertainty and noone knew what would happen so there isn't much blame being thrown around. And we never had any big protest despite some disagreement on what was actually done and not done (I, for one is one of those who think our government overreacted) and compliance has been very high even if most folks disagreed on certain details specific to their own life. Noone wore face masks, then there was a mask mandate in indoor public space and people started wearing those despite any personal opinion, then the mandate was lifted and folks stopped wearing face masks. We never had a mask mandate outdoors and to me it looks very weird that someone thinks they actually need to wear one outdoors.

If stuff should get serious again people will generally comply with whatever is mandated despite any personal grunt.

On a side note the US today updated travel advice to Norway and advise against any non-essential travel to the country. Which is just hilarious - our infection rate is 1/3 of the US adjusted for population, our count is much more accurate so in reality the difference is even greater and the CDC advises that, if you have to go, you should wear a face mask and stay 6 feet away from everyone. If you follow the CDC guidelines you would be the only one doing that. As of now the pandemic is over here. That might change in the future but as of now its all cool and that US health authorities rank us as a high-risk country is hilarious.

[RetiredAt63]

On a side note the US today updated travel advice to Norway and advise against any non-essential travel to the country. Which is just hilarious - our infection rate is 1/3 of the US adjusted for population, our count is much more accurate so in reality the difference is even greater and the CDC advises that, if you have to go, you should wear a face mask and stay 6 feet away from everyone. If you follow the CDC guidelines you would be the only one doing that. As of now the pandemic is over here. That might change in the future but as of now its all cool and that US health authorities rank us as a high-risk country is hilarious.

I'm laughing, I found the site and Canada is Level 3.  They advise being fully vaccinated before traveling here.  Well, that is good advice, because we don't want you if you are not fully vaccinated.  Plus when you look at the map the US is also Level 4.  ;-)

[alsoknownasDean]

Google indicates that Norway has almost 70% of it's population fully vaccinated and Australia just over 40%.

There's been big supply issues, in part because the plan was to use mostly AstraZeneca, and the advice around that vaccine changed. The government have scrambled to get mRNA vaccines for younger people and general availability to those to aged 16-39 was only opened up in late August.

A lot of the reopening plans here depend on vaccination rates. The plan is that once 80% of those aged 16+ (or maybe 12+) are fully vaccinated many of the restrictions will end. At the current rate that's probably early-mid November. The lockdowns (which are gradually being eased) are buying time until then by keeping the spread of the virus from going completely out of control.

Here in Victoria (pop 6.7 million, about 3/4 of which are in greater Melbourne) around 500,000 doses are being administered per week.

There's also the 'each state is maintaining their own borders' thing. A hardline approach to keeping the borders closed to keep Covid out has been politically popular, especially in Western Australia.

[Davnasty]

As a non-US/non-Australian/non-whatever I find the religious belief in mask-wearing on this forum quite bizzarre tbh. As a fun fact when it all hit in March last year pretty much noone wore a face mask at all, but infections dropped to almost zero within a couple of months anyway and didn't go back up when schools reopened etc.

I can't speak for everyone, but my decisions on when and where to wear a mask have been based on science. You can disagree with the science if you like but no need to go using the "R" word

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Skip to: "Direct Evidence of the Efficacy of Public Mask Wearing"

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html#anchor_1619456988446

Skip to: "Human Studies of Masking and SARS-CoV-2 Transmission"

[GodlessCommie]

I have no real understanding of either country, but it seems strange to compare countries with so vastly different vaccination rates. Living with Covid when 70% of your population is fully vaccinated is nothing like if it's only 40%.

Re: US travel restrictions... yes, it is silly to close borders to countries that are safer than our own. It's been like this throughout the pandemic, we never stopped treating the outside world as more dangerous, even when we became the Covid epicenter.   

[Gremlin]

Aussie here.

In the past two weeks I've:

• Taken my teenage daughter to the theatre.  Packed auditorium to see a major musical.  Masks were mandatory
• Attended a major international sporting event.  Venue wasn't quite at capacity, but there were no capacity restrictions
• Worked several days onsite in the CBD of one of the main cities.  Coffee shops were busy.  The food court operators were doing a reasonable trade
• Took a family holiday to the beach.  Had to book for dinner if we wanted to eat out as pretty much every restaurant was at capacity
• Went on a whale watching tour.  We had a choice of exactly one day we could book, as the tour company was full for all our other dates
• Went out snorkelling on the Great Barrier Reef.  Again, we had a choice of exactly one day as the tour company was operating at capacity
• Watched my son compete at a major state junior sporting event.  Over 1000 kids competing and several thousand people in attendance

Pretty minimal restrictions applying to me.  I can work.  My kids can go to school.  Community and state level sport is happening here.  The arts are happening here.  If I lived in Sydney, none of those things would be possible right now.  But I can't cross the state border as I otherwise may not be able to get home.

I think the 'averages' imply a universal distribution of COVID in Australia.  There are parts of Australia that are effectively COVID-free and others where the case loads are significantly higher than that average implies.  Some places in Australia have genuinely tough restrictions in place, but they also face the prospect of their local health systems collapsing if they remove those restrictions in the short term.  Vaccination is mitigating that at a pretty sharp pace, but it's not there yet.

[mspym]

I would also add that it's not helpful to lump the Australian and NZ approaches together. While both have the aim of not overwhelming the hospitals and also protecting a more vulnerable indigenous population, Australia has mostly had lighter restrictions that have run much (much) longer and NZ has chosen to go for very hard restrictions at the earliest sign but from talking to my friends and family, they've basically had an entirely normal pre-COVID life other than the comparatively brief times they are in lockdown. Meanwhile, we've been living with some form of restrictions for ~18 months now.

[Fresh Bread]

I live in Sydney, Australia. Our locally transmitted case numbers were zero til June but then we had a Delta infection and we've been in lockdown since the end of June. There's been some fairly harsh restrictions.

The approach of our state government switched during this latest outbreak. Previously we contained outbreaks with reasonably short and targeted lockdowns or restrictions. However Delta was impossible to contain for various reasons so the new approach is to get everyone vaccinated. We've gone from (almost) zero to hero in a few weeks. 1% of the adult population or thereabouts are vaccinated every day.

When we hit 70% fully vaccinated (2nd week in October) the fully vaxxed will be able to travel around Sydney and eat in restaurants, go to the cinema, things like that. Then 2 weeks after that (80% fully vax) schools will go back & we'll be able to travel throughout NSW (ie go on holiday). Then on 1 December-ish (90% fully vax) we'll be doing the bigger events and so on and I think also lose the masks? At this point the unvaccinated will also come out of lockdown.

We've been told to expect that case numbers will go up as lockdown ends so I don't think there's going to be a big outcry. We are going to switch from reporting daily case numbers to hospitalisations / ICU / deaths*. We've also been promised no more large area lockdowns once we are mostly fully vaxxed.

Of course there's people protesting lockdowns and we are all over it, but we can see the light at the end of the tunnel so we just have to wait it out.

The only thing left then is for other states & territories to get to the same vaccination levels so we can open state borders and resume international travel, which should happen about a month after NSW.

I'm guessing the state that's gone the hardest on their border (WA) will get pressured into opening it at this point. Their hospitals will just have to deal with the inevitable cases, but that was always going to be the situation unless they planned to be locked down for eternity? 

The international travel ban is the only restriction we've had consistently since March 2020. That's been a bit hard considering a lot of the population have family overseas and a lot of Aussies are stuck overseas since there's limited flights. The only place I want to go right now is NZ but I guess I'll also need to wait for their vax rates to improve before they open the borders.

[FIRE Artist]

It sounds like Norway is at where Alberta Canada was at in the beginning of July, our population is probably comparable along with vax rates at the time (assuming the numbers are based on 12 and older).  Well, we were open for Summer, open for good, and the declaration that Covid was now endemic.  We have public healthcare.

Well, here we are today… https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-health-care-covid-patients-icu-1.6191057

All non life or limb surgeries are cancelled and all parts of the system have been drained of resources to staff for these “ICU” beds, I use quotations because ICU is 1:1 nursing care, our ICU nurses are on 2 or 3:1 assignments, and all the rest of the acute care system is shouldering the burden with over assignments as well.  NICU nurses caring for adults, sounds like a great plan to anyone?  We are not projected to hit peak until the end of October.   Ventilators are already being rationed due to lack of staff. The daily growth of ICU numbers is being held at a lowish day on day increase only due to the sheer number of patients dying daily.  And still our Conservative government is not shutting things down.

So, good luck to Norway, I sincerely mean it.

[Fresh Bread]

@FIRE Artist Do you know when Canada might hit 85/90% vaccination rates? Is that the plan do you think (to get as near 100% as poss) or is there just no plan?

[RetiredAt63]

@FIRE Artist Do you know when Canada might hit 85/90% vaccination rates? Is that the plan do you think (to get as near 100% as poss) or is there just no plan?

It varies by location.  Here in Ottawa we have somewhere about 90% with one vaccination and over 80% with full vaccination.

Health is a provincial jurisdiction so each province is charting its own course. 

[FIRE Artist]

@FIRE Artist Do you know when Canada might hit 85/90% vaccination rates? Is that the plan do you think (to get as near 100% as poss) or is there just no plan?

So nationally, the strategy is to provide enough vaccines, give the provinces money for vaccine passports, mandate vaccines for federally mandated industries.  There is not much more they can do on that front, besides give the provinces more money for healthcare and they have been funding the additional financial aids to businesses and the unemployed.  The provinces manage their own healthcare system, passports, restrictions, vaccine mandates etc.  Nationally, >12 yrs are already over 85% vaccinated, but those 15% of unvaccinated seem to be concentrated in pockets of extreme low vaccination.

Alberta is very conservative as far as Canadian standards go, and likes to look south of the border too much IMO.  Our vaccination rates are 10% lower than the national average for 12 and older.  It is the rural populations driving the low vaccination rates, the two major cities, Edmonton and Calgary both have vaccination rates at the national average.  The antivaxxers are more prevalent in smaller towns and rural areas.  The town of Edson had the honour of being picked up by international news last week for their COVID party.  I work in the healthcare system and the last I heard was 11 people were admitted to ICU and 6 dead, linked the party, but no official numbers are out due to privacy.  https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2021/09/23/people-end-up-in-icu-after-attending-covid-party/?sh=2509d0e376af

Alberta finally implemented a vaccine passport two weeks ago, causing an increased rush to get vaccines, it seems that getting between a university student and their beer is a bigger motivation that the $100 payment to get vaccinated that the province implemented just prior.  Next hope really is to wait for the vaccine to be approved for those under 12 to get us closer to herd immunity so that the antivaxxers became a smaller force. 

[habanero]

I can't speak for everyone, but my decisions on when and where to wear a mask have been based on science. You can disagree with the science if you like but no need to go using the "R" word

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Skip to: "Direct Evidence of the Efficacy of Public Mask Wearing"

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html#anchor_1619456988446

Skip to: "Human Studies of Masking and SARS-CoV-2 Transmission"

I don't really care a lot about the science of gen pop wearing masks - which is afaik rather iffy to start with anyways. I follow whatever guidelines / orders that come from our "CDC". If they say you should wear a mask in certain situations, I do. When they say it's not longer neccesary, I stop doing it. We bought our first package of face masks some time early this year, up to then I never wore one. When it was mandated in indoor public space, I, like pretty much everyone else, did. Over the last couple of months mask-wearing has dropped to almost zero. This is in the capital, in the smaller communities, like where I come from, mask wearing never caught on and has been a rare sight during the entire pandemic.

Im also fairly certain the efficacy of mask wearing has been greatly exaggerated and from what I read on this forum it looks very much like a cult thing (if I have to avoid the R-word). Whenever someone has had a gathering or whatever they apparently feel obliged to add (masked) as a descrpition of the event. To me it looks a lot like a politcial issue, like a lot of stuff in the US and there has also been articles pointing to people not managing to stop wearing masks when it's no longer neccessary. But different cultures, different customs. If I see someone wearing a mask outdoors in Oslo my initial thought is that said person is a moron, not an extra responsible enlightened citizen. I just, even if I try really, really hard, dont see any reason to mask up outdoors. That was never mandated here btw, because the health authorities were pretty clear on it being pointless. And they base their stuff on, you know, science.

For whatever myriad of reasons our approach to our local situation has worked out pretty well. Better than almost everywhere else if judged by hard numbers. That's not to say that everyone could and should do what Norway did, but it should at least be a hint that it ain't how many face masks are worn that moves the needle in the end. We even got rid of covid version 1.0 without any mask wearing at all, all while shops stayed open and all.

Our schools for at least grade 1-7 (not really into dets on older kids as mine are currently grade 4 and 7) have stayed open the entire time bar a few weeks last spring. During this time there has been zero mask wearing in the classrooms, until very recently zero of the kids in that age group were vaccinated and one should assume the child wards in hospitals were full to the brim with kids with covid, but in reality almost noone has been hospitalized. Our health folks are of course aware of what has happened in the US but for whatever reason, and they pretty much say so openly, they think that whatever happens in the US is irrelevant for our situation.

[Davnasty]

I can't speak for everyone, but my decisions on when and where to wear a mask have been based on science. You can disagree with the science if you like but no need to go using the "R" word

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Skip to: "Direct Evidence of the Efficacy of Public Mask Wearing"

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html#anchor_1619456988446

Skip to: "Human Studies of Masking and SARS-CoV-2 Transmission"

I don't really care a lot about the science of gen pop wearing masks - which is afaik rather iffy to start with anyways. I follow whatever guidelines / orders that come from our "CDC". If they say you should wear a mask in certain situations, I do. When they say it's not longer necessary, I stop doing it. We bought our first package of face masks some time early this year, up to then I never wore one. When it was mandated in indoor public space, I, like pretty much everyone else, did. Over the last couple of months mask-wearing has dropped to almost zero. This is in the capital, in the smaller communities, like where I come from, mask wearing never caught on and has been a rare sight during the entire pandemic.

I'm also fairly certain the efficacy of mask wearing has been greatly exaggerated and from what I read on this forum it looks very much like a cult thing (if I have to avoid the R-word). Whenever someone has had a gathering or whatever they apparently feel obliged to add (masked) as a description of the event. To me it looks a lot like a political issue, like a lot of stuff in the US and there has also been articles pointing to people not managing to stop wearing masks when it's no longer necessary. But different cultures, different customs. If I see someone wearing a mask outdoors in Oslo my initial thought is that said person is a moron, not an extra responsible enlightened citizen. I just, even if I try really, really hard, don't see any reason to mask up outdoors. That was never mandated here btw, because the health authorities were pretty clear on it being pointless. And they base their stuff on, you know, science.

I won't debate the science or efficacy of masks further because I think we agree on the relevant points. I've more or less followed CDC guidelines and I thought the science was pretty clear that masks weren't beneficial outdoors (except in dense crowds) since early on in the pandemic. As for masking behaviors being a cult thing on the forums, maybe we're not reading the same threads but most of the discussions I've seen are highly analytical, pretty much the opposite of cult behavior.

I think your criticism of over zealous maskers is a little misplaced. In your country the vast majority of people followed the rules because they weren't that hard to follow and the population assumed the government was trying to help them. If that had happened in the US the politicization of masks (and pandemic response measures in general) could have been avoided. Unfortunately a third or more of the population actively and loudly resisted those measures which is why people who wanted to follow the rules felt the need to do things like specify events as "masked". Anecdotally I knew plenty of people on the conservative side of politics who were pissed off at anti-maskers as well.

With regard to people wearing masks outdoors, viewing them as moron is pretty harsh. I know I've walked around outdoors with a mask on for a variety of reasons. Going between buildings and not bothering to take it off, forgetting to take it off, just leaving it on because folding it and putting it in my pocket repeatedly bends the metal nose piece which eventually breaks. And if someone just wears a mask all the time because they don't understand when it is and isn't beneficial, that seems like a pretty rational option to me. They're not hurting anyone, why should I care?

[habanero]

I won't debate the science or efficacy of masks further because I think we agree on the relevant points. I've more or less followed CDC guidelines and I thought the science was pretty clear that masks weren't beneficial outdoors (except in dense crowds) since early on in the pandemic. As for masking behaviors being a cult thing on the forums, maybe we're not reading the same threads but most of the discussions I've seen are highly analytical, pretty much the opposite of cult behavior.

I think your criticism of over zealous maskers is a little misplaced. In your country the vast majority of people followed the rules because they weren't that hard to follow and the population assumed the government was trying to help them. If that had happened in the US the politicization of masks (and pandemic response measures in general) could have been avoided. Unfortunately a third or more of the population actively and loudly resisted those measures which is why people who wanted to follow the rules felt the need to do things like specify events as "masked". Anecdotally I knew plenty of people on the conservative side of politics who were pissed off at anti-maskers as well.

With regard to people wearing masks outdoors, viewing them as moron is pretty harsh. I know I've walked around outdoors with a mask on for a variety of reasons. Going between buildings and not bothering to take it off, forgetting to take it off, just leaving it on because folding it and putting it in my pocket repeatedly bends the metal nose piece which eventually breaks. And if someone just wears a mask all the time because they don't understand when it is and isn't beneficial, that seems like a pretty rational option to me. They're not hurting anyone, why should I care?

Maybe "moron" is harsher a word than I think it is... anyways, I see it predominantaly as unable to adopt to a new reality these days over here. While it was - at the very best - close to pointless 4-6 months ago it now serves no purpose whatsoever. I get the "forgetting/not bothering/only want to use one mask when moving between buildings etc" but the law of the land over here is currently no mandate and hardly anyone wearing any face mask anywhere so I think that point is kinda exhausted now where here I live. If there was any meaningful risk in catching covid from a random passer-byer outdoors we'd all been infected long time ago, but we aren't. To me, here, it very much like someone trying to make a point and I think that point is moot now and has been here for quite some time.

And we (probably) agree that the main problem is that an anstonishingly large part of the US population appears... let's say "less gifted" when it comes to an infectious disease and general behaviour in these circumstances. We also have our share of covid deniers and anti-vaxxers but they are relatively few and far between there is very limited potential to cause any serious harm. Despite very high vax rates we are, as mentioned upthread, still struggling with parts of the immigrant community and to a lower extent some of the young adults. The latter is not really a big problem as they are extremely unlikely to get seriously ill anyway, but some of them eventually will and do. But as long as they don't result in overcrowded hospitals and cause problems for general health care the (unspoken) idea now seems to be they're on their own and what happens happens. If they get hospitalized they of course get the best care available for free but the rest of society can't be on hold because of them. It's entirely up to themselves / their community / church / mosque / whatever, not the rest of the country. Since the dawn of the pandemic immigrants have been off the charts in their share of cases, hospitalizations and deaths and now lack of vaccination. Noone really knows why. Explanations being thrown around are cultural, lack of faith in the government and so on. Needless to say, the entire issue is a tad controversial. As long as the vaccines work as intended it's very, very hard to see the hospitals getting swamped here. They are more worried about RS and Flu patients now as there has been almost two years with no circulation so they fear those might hit hard when they come.

Im 44 and got my first shot 20th of Jun and 2nd Aug 13th so vaccinations were pretty slow early on but really caught speed when the eastern bloc countries started cancelling orders as their citizens weren't overly keen on shots. My 2nd was moved forward by almost 5 weeks due to sudden surge in supply. On a side note I think cancelled eastern bloc orders is now one of Australia's main extra sources as well.

Some days ago a doctor at one of the main hospitals said the children's ICU ward was almost completely full. None of the kids had covid, however, so noone outisde really cared. If it was due to covid people would completely freak out. Since the start of pandemic total of under 40s deaths is 6 (360 scaled to US population without adjusting for actual age group size)

[Fresh Bread]

@RetiredAt63 @FIRE Artist thanks for the insight! It sounds kind of similar to here in that states control healthcare & lockdowns and the vaccination rate is not uniform even within each state. We have high rates across Sydney now and some really high rural areas but some really low. It doesn't seem politicised although we have two federal level MPs that are anti-vax. One has had no impact on his local vax rate (he's a general idiot who has been pushed out of his party), I'd have to look up the other.

Our ICUs have not hit capacity in Sydney but they are obviously working in terrible conditions and it would be a different story in the rural areas. People would need transporting to bigger centres. The government is pretty good at targeting areas of concern though. It took a bit of time but when a mainly Aboriginal rural town got the virus during this outbreak, a convoy of caravans was dispatched to help overcrowded households isolate, as well as sending healthcare workers and vaccines. They were having to camp in tents up til that help came. Likewise I would think that if there is a particular local authority area with very low vax rates, teams will be sent over the next few weeks to turn that around, otherwise the local hospitals will be overwhelmed in a month.

That COVID party, wow, how crazy! Hopefully no-one attempts that here.

[Fresh Bread]

On a side note I think cancelled eastern bloc orders is now one of Australia's main extra sources as well.

Yes! Thanks to Poland, NSW will be out of lockdown a few weeks earlier than might have been.

We have an outdoors mask mandate when we are around other people eg waiting for takeaway, at the bus stop. But if you're walking to the shops on empty streets you don't need to according to the Health Minister. That rule came in when this outbreak was really ramping up and I'm assuming there'd been a transmission outside a cafe so we needed to go a bit harder. There's a lot of streets with high foot traffic, especially in areas of Sydney where people shop at a lot of small shops instead of the supermarket. Last week I drove through one area for work that is a bit of an epicentre and was a bit shocked at the volumes to be honest, but people gotta eat and they were mostly masked!

[habanero]

to be very specific the Norwegain vacc statistics are getting a bit hard to interpret. It was easy as long as only over 18s were eligible but now that it has been lowered to 12 its gotten harder as I think the plan (for now) is to give only one dose to those under 16, this might however change but that might distort the "fully vaccinated" numbers a bit as they never will show up as having received two doses on the various international sites aggregating national data but in reality they are not eligible for a 2nd dose. The arguments given by our "CDC" is that kids have very high immune response after one dose, the disease isn't very dangerous for them anyway and the risk of heart pouch problems is mainly after the 2nd dose but they are open to adjust the strategy if needed.

But the times they are a-changin'. Some months ago it made news when for some reason there was a hiccup in the distribution of vaccines and some place got deliveries delayed by a few days, now there are more stories of vaccines having to be binned for various reasons, the most popular being people not showing up for appointments and for some reason not wanting Moderna as shot nr. 2 if their first was Pfizer.

There was quite a lot of debate on the distribution strategy, from the onset it was purely based on a pro-rata in various age groups, which was probably not optimal in terms of actual effect as the capital always had most cases adjusted for population, then this was tweaked a bit which was in line with expert advice, but still controversial - both from a prioritizing the main population center vs rural areas - angle as well as not prioritizing the main population center enough - angle but all in all distribution has been fairly even across the entire country and vax rates have differed by just a few percentage points during the drive.

[habanero]

On a side note I think cancelled eastern bloc orders is now one of Australia's main extra sources as well.

Yes! Thanks to Poland, NSW will be out of lockdown a few weeks earlier than might have been.

Don't know what Aussie news are writing about it, but think there very soon will be doses galore as also western Europe starts cancelling orders. If I recall correctly Denmark has already sold surplus doses to Australia and Norway has started cancelling deliveries as well as we are reaching the saturation point and the powers in charge are happy with the ammount of doses we have in storage if need should arise. These are two small countries but when the big European countries get saturated there will be a lot of surplus doses available and I guess Australia will be on the top of the list for countries to recieve (well, maybe not from France...)

I think the EU has orders for 1.8 billion doses from Pfizer alone, and with a population of 450 million and uptake far lower than 100% it's not very likely the EU will actually take delivery on their orders ,but the main issue is obv more the timing of the cancellations than the number of cancellations.

[Fresh Bread]

We've just yesterday opened up Pfizer to be available to over 60s (previously they could only have Astra Zeneca as Pfizer was limited) so I'm guessing the supply is now plentiful for the reasons above. NZ hopefully will get a load too so I can go on my holiday next year!

I hope also a bunch will be gifted since the next issue will be another variant from countries with low vax rates. I think it's fair that countries put on their own oxygen masks before helping others as far as a pandemic goes but somehow we now need to get the world vaccinated. I expect there will be some detail when we open our borders if other variants emerge eg quarantine will stay in place but be easier (at home) and/or will only apply to certain countries.

I'm still in my PJs at 9.10am so silver linings but jeez I'd like to be able to book a holiday for next area and know what the requirements are. We are all learning patience! 

[habanero]

I'm still in my PJs at 9.10am so silver linings but jeez I'd like to be able to book a holiday for next area and know what the requirements are. We are all learning patience!

We booked flights for our twice cancelled summer holiday to the UK last weekend for next year. Going to a failed state as the first family adventure is gonna be living on the edge. Hopefully they don't need to call out the army to get fuel to the pumps by then as we require a rental car for a few days of the holidays.

[Fresh Bread]

I'm still in my PJs at 9.10am so silver linings but jeez I'd like to be able to book a holiday for next area and know what the requirements are. We are all learning patience!

We booked flights for our twice cancelled summer holiday to the UK last weekend for next year. Going to a failed state as the first family adventure is gonna be living on the edge. Hopefully they don't need to call out the army to get fuel to the pumps by then as we require a rental car for a few days of the holidays.

Mmmm, good luck. I need to go there too to see my family. It will be ten or eleven years since my last trip when I eventually get there and dog knows what I'll find. Will bring snacks.

[RetiredAt63]

We've just yesterday opened up Pfizer to be available to over 60s (previously they could only have Astra Zeneca as Pfizer was limited) so I'm guessing the supply is now plentiful for the reasons above. NZ hopefully will get a load too so I can go on my holiday next year!

I hope also a bunch will be gifted since the next issue will be another variant from countries with low vax rates. I think it's fair that countries put on their own oxygen masks before helping others as far as a pandemic goes but somehow we now need to get the world vaccinated. I expect there will be some detail when we open our borders if other variants emerge eg quarantine will stay in place but be easier (at home) and/or will only apply to certain countries.

I'm still in my PJs at 9.10am so silver linings but jeez I'd like to be able to book a holiday for next area and know what the requirements are. We are all learning patience!

We are getting close to saturation in most areas.  Mostly Pfizer. Some high risk groups are now eligible for a booster (i.e. 3rd dose, 8 months after the second).  I don't know when we will approve vaccination for under 12s.  We had a longer gap between first and second doses, so I am hoping that developed better immunity than the 3-4 week gap.

Now that most of us have our vaccination "oxygen masks" on, it is definitely time to start getting vaccine to low rate places.  The whole point of calling an outbreak a pandemic is that it is everywhere and the work to end it needs to be done everywhere.

[habanero]

Our main tablolid has now even stopped having the daily coronavirus/covid statistics on their front page and barely anything covid related makes the main news. That's probably sign numero uno that the pandemic is considered over. While they have been one of the main sources for stirring up and maintaining general fear I have to admit that their infographics have been top-notch and in some areas much better than what our "CDC" provides despite pretty much all data comes from the same "CDC".

As for the mentioned wild partying in Oslo since the ditching of all restrictions last weekend, infection numbers have been continuing down and so have hospitalizations but we shall see, there is normally some time lag before stuff shows up but our health folks look a lot at what happened, or didn't happen, in Denmark as they are a few weeks ahead of us on most fronts so they are fairly relaxed and assume our experience will be roughly similar as it's a valid and relevant experience. The part of Oslo (the capital) where I live have stopped their statistics on infections and vaccine progression (data were awesome while it lasted) as it's no longer a public health issue.

[fuzzy math]

It sounds like Norway is at where Alberta Canada was at in the beginning of July, our population is probably comparable along with vax rates at the time (assuming the numbers are based on 12 and older).  Well, we were open for Summer, open for good, and the declaration that Covid was now endemic.  We have public healthcare.

Well, here we are today… https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-health-care-covid-patients-icu-1.6191057

All non life or limb surgeries are cancelled and all parts of the system have been drained of resources to staff for these “ICU” beds, I use quotations because ICU is 1:1 nursing care, our ICU nurses are on 2 or 3:1 assignments, and all the rest of the acute care system is shouldering the burden with over assignments as well.  NICU nurses caring for adults, sounds like a great plan to anyone?  We are not projected to hit peak until the end of October.   Ventilators are already being rationed due to lack of staff. The daily growth of ICU numbers is being held at a lowish day on day increase only due to the sheer number of patients dying daily.  And still our Conservative government is not shutting things down.

So, good luck to Norway, I sincerely mean it.

Not all ICU care is 1:1.

 Also what percentage full do your ICUs normally run up north? In the US its generally 80% + to begin with on average with multiple surges up to 100%. I'm genuinely curious if the rates you're seeing are a huge departure from your normal census or if staff burnout is a larger component of the lack of availability.

[fuzzy math]

When we hit 70% fully vaccinated (2nd week in October) the fully vaxxed will be able to travel around Sydney and eat in restaurants, go to the cinema, things like that. Then 2 weeks after that (80% fully vax) schools will go back & we'll be able to travel throughout NSW (ie go on holiday). Then on 1 December-ish (90% fully vax) we'll be doing the bigger events and so on and I think also lose the masks? At this point the unvaccinated will also come out of lockdown.

We've been told to expect that case numbers will go up as lockdown ends so I don't think there's going to be a big outcry. We are going to switch from reporting daily case numbers to hospitalisations / ICU / deaths*. We've also been promised no more large area lockdowns once we are mostly fully vaxxed.

How do you think the Australian public will react to "letting er rip" once the vaxxed population gets high enough? The messaging there was largely Zero Covid based for so long that I can't imagine it going over well when deaths hit higher rates than what would have previously triggered a large scale lock down.

[Fresh Bread]

When we hit 70% fully vaccinated (2nd week in October) the fully vaxxed will be able to travel around Sydney and eat in restaurants, go to the cinema, things like that. Then 2 weeks after that (80% fully vax) schools will go back & we'll be able to travel throughout NSW (ie go on holiday). Then on 1 December-ish (90% fully vax) we'll be doing the bigger events and so on and I think also lose the masks? At this point the unvaccinated will also come out of lockdown.

We've been told to expect that case numbers will go up as lockdown ends so I don't think there's going to be a big outcry. We are going to switch from reporting daily case numbers to hospitalisations / ICU / deaths*. We've also been promised no more large area lockdowns once we are mostly fully vaxxed.

How do you think the Australian public will react to "letting er rip" once the vaxxed population gets high enough? The messaging there was largely Zero Covid based for so long that I can't imagine it going over well when deaths hit higher rates than what would have previously triggered a large scale lock down.

I guess the tabloids will make a meal of it, and the politicians will use it as ammunition, especially. WA, the state that has had few cases and doesn't want to open up to Australia let alone the world, is led by Labour and NSW is led by the Liberal/Nationals Coalition. So I see the biggest issue will be WA blaming NSW for any deaths since patient zero of this outbreak came from NSW. Just general tiresome point scoring.

I don't know what the general public in NSW thinks and I don't read the worst of the tabloids... I *think* the majority don't support the lockdown exactly but have tolerated it.  But we've been in lockdown for months, the majority of us are vaccinated, it does feel like it's time. The economy needs to get going again. Our entertainment industry had just started up again when this lockdown started which was a massive blow (I went to one show and one movie!).  Obviously anyone involved in overseas tourism has found other work but I'm sure they'd like to get back to it.

No doubt it's going to be very hard to switch from celebrating how well we've done in the past to telling people to treat it like the flu once we are 80-90% vaccinated. The majority of deaths in this latest outbreak were unfortunately unvaccinated. Those people that are vaccinated and pass away are old/infirm. We are going to go from protecting every life to letting some cop it and it's going to be a very weird feeling.

If the federal government got the messaging right/ people found them reassuring then it would be fine but ... Unfortunately our Prime Minister is terrible at being reassuring. Instead of resting bitch face he has resting smirk face.

Hopefully most people understand that the end point was always going to be vaccinate and then open up. Can't stay shut or quarantine all visitors forever.

[fuzzy math]

Thanks for the perspective. All I see on social media is people getting punched in the head by cops...

[Fresh Bread]

Thanks for the perspective. All I see on social media is people getting punched in the head by cops...

Oh that's probably the protests in Melbourne? Melbourne police are pretty heavy handed but the protesters sounded like a mixture of anti vaxxers and those just wanting a fight. One guy pictured covered in blood was apparently not beaten by police but rather glassed by a store owner after he tried to steal alcohol. Hard to have much sympathy.

We had roadblocks in Sydney on the days that protests were organised and the second one never really happened, party due to roadblocks, but also due to bad weather and because our roadmap out of lockdown was already announced.

[By the River]

Thanks for the perspective. All I see on social media is people getting punched in the head by cops...

I agree; thanks for all the informative replies.  I started this thread because I saw 2 news videos within 30 minutes last week...an Australian one with police punching people in the head, and one with partying in Oslo.  The discrepancy was jarring. 

[Posthumane]

 Also what percentage full do your ICUs normally run up north? In the US its generally 80% + to begin with on average with multiple surges up to 100%. I'm genuinely curious if the rates you're seeing are a huge departure from your normal census or if staff burnout is a larger component of the lack of availability.

The normal utilization rate in Canada is similar. In fact I think it's often a bit higher, closer to 90% in busy seasons. However, Alberta is running at something like 180% of their baseline ICU capacity after cancelling every non-urgent procedure they could. The baseline in Alberta in the last few years is 173 ICU beds according to the AHS site (which, admittedly, is low compared to the rest of the country and less than what they used to have). They managed to extend that to 370 beds adn right now they have 263 Covid patients in ICU and rising, along with another 50 non-covid patients.

[marty998]

Thanks to the Aussies in this thread for contributing. My thoughts are consistent with those already raised.

Nothing more to add except to say I'm getting my second dose this week. +1 to the stats :)

[GodlessCommie]

Re: ICUs... one thing to note is that US has a really high number of ICUs per capita. Only Germany has a comparable number. France has 1/3rd, UK - 1/5th. So, it takes some extra effort to overwhelm the US ICUs, and we managed that.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-countries-with-the-most-critical-care-beds-per-capita-infographic/?sh=43aef6527f86

[habanero]

Re: ICUs... one thing to note is that US has a really high number of ICUs per capita. Only Germany has a comparable number. France has 1/3rd, UK - 1/5th. So, it takes some extra effort to overwhelm the US ICUs, and we managed that.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-countries-with-the-most-critical-care-beds-per-capita-infographic/?sh=43aef6527f86

If there is one thing we've lerned during this pandemic is that ICU beds are a highly fluent number. Local conditions vary, but our main issue was trained staff, not beds, not gear, not oxygene supply or anything. Just manpower (or more precicely, womanpower). We have one of the lower "official" capcities in Europe and noone really knows what it could scale to as it never was tested during this pandemic . The hospitals obv made plans etc but those were never put into effect as it wasn't neccessary. In neighbouring Sweden they put up a big-ass emergency ward outside one of the main hospials but it was never used and later disbanded so they obv had the capacity to scale up if needed. Did we have? Noone really knows as it was never neccessary.

[Fresh Bread]

Well this explains a lot. Darkly hilarious. I think Australians for the most part just don't have the same obsession with "FREEDOM!" as some Americans. Don't invade us please, I've got a lovely holiday down the coast planned for next week!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-23/joe-rogan-ted-cruz-and-fox-new-criticise-australian-covid-policy/100553548

You will be pleased to know that we are out of lockdown in both Sydney & Melbourne as vaccination targets have been met. Death numbers seems steady and those in hospital are mostly unvaccinated.

There's still some restrictions on travel but we are more or less free as a bird (if vaccinated) from November. We can go overseas for the first time since March 2020.

[alsoknownasDean]

How do you think the Australian public will react to "letting er rip" once the vaxxed population gets high enough? The messaging there was largely Zero Covid based for so long that I can't imagine it going over well when deaths hit higher rates than what would have previously triggered a large scale lock down.

Depends on which state you are referring to.

The states/territories which have had significant Delta outbreaks (NSW, ACT and Victoria) have already ended their lockdowns, in the case of Victoria with case numbers of around 2000 a day. Vaccination rates are high (over 80% of 12+ in NSW and ACT double vaccinated and Victoria is predicted to reach 80% within a week). In those three jurisdictions the vaccination levels matter more than case numbers.

The others generally have lower vaccination rates and are reluctant to open to the other three. Most are likely to by Christmas provided their own population reaches vaccination thresholds, but Western Australia may keep their borders closed into 2022.

I'm going to visit my parents next weekend (in regional Victoria) for the first time since July. Keen.

[life_travel]

I am from a state with zero covid and while I do sympathise with states that had such long lockdowns , personally if you're not in that situation, it's hard to imagine . So naturally , as our life continued as normal -ish ( apart from wearing masks everywhere ) I really, really do not want Covid here. Selfish I know..
Personally I lived away from my family for 25 years and am used to seeing them in person only every 3 years, so having shut borders doesn't faze me.

[habanero]

A little update from the high north again.

Cases on the rise and hospitalizations ditto. Covid deaths on the rise but still very low. According to our "CDC" 0.4% of confirmed cases under 18 end up in hospital (so actual number much lower as they assume lots of cases go undetected as test activity is way down). Average hospitalization stay for under 18s is two days. Median age of hospitalized is 77 years and a good chunk is fully vaxxed. Latter is eventually kind of to be expected as large parts of the (adult) popolation are fully vaxxed, but abseloute number also on the rise. A piece of good new is that share of patients requiring ventilation is much lower than earlier.

In general life its pretty hard to see anyone actually caring. Based on anecdotical observations mask wearing is maybe a tad up but still extremely low (not mandated anywhere). Public transport numbers in the capital where I live are still signficantly below pre-pandemic, but the jury is still out on what the mix is between increased wfh, angst for taking public transport or changed travel habits over the course of the pandemic.

So bottom line is pretty much that in any variation of normal life, this ain't going away and if even if you get very high vaxx rates like we have it's still gonna be an issue for the foreseeable future.

So any idea anyone might have that if you just get to 80% or whatever vaxx rate its gonna go away appears to have limited root in reality. If you still define it as a public health problem or not is another matter. We also now have excess mortality for the first time in ages, but it ain't due to Covid. There is some head-scratching going on but one obvious explanation is that old, fragile people who where "supposed" to pass away last year didn't as there was hardly any infections disease circulating are passing away now. So got a year extra, if you like.

78.1% of total population is vaccinated. We only offer down to 12 years for the time being, and only one dose for under 16s (not entirelu sure about the details). 3rd dose is currently administered for parts of the population (over 65, at risk, frontline health care workers etc).

Attached the state of things since the start.

From top left clockwise confirmed cases / case trend / tests / share of positive tests / hospitalized / ICU / on ventilator / deaths.

[FIRE Artist]

It sounds like Norway is at where Alberta Canada was at in the beginning of July, our population is probably comparable along with vax rates at the time (assuming the numbers are based on 12 and older).  Well, we were open for Summer, open for good, and the declaration that Covid was now endemic.  We have public healthcare.

Well, here we are today… https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-health-care-covid-patients-icu-1.6191057

All non life or limb surgeries are cancelled and all parts of the system have been drained of resources to staff for these “ICU” beds, I use quotations because ICU is 1:1 nursing care, our ICU nurses are on 2 or 3:1 assignments, and all the rest of the acute care system is shouldering the burden with over assignments as well.  NICU nurses caring for adults, sounds like a great plan to anyone?  We are not projected to hit peak until the end of October.   Ventilators are already being rationed due to lack of staff. The daily growth of ICU numbers is being held at a lowish day on day increase only due to the sheer number of patients dying daily.  And still our Conservative government is not shutting things down.

So, good luck to Norway, I sincerely mean it.

Not all ICU care is 1:1.

 Also what percentage full do your ICUs normally run up north? In the US its generally 80% + to begin with on average with multiple surges up to 100%. I'm genuinely curious if the rates you're seeing are a huge departure from your normal census or if staff burnout is a larger component of the lack of availability.

Sorry, just checked back on this.  Our normal provincial count of adult ICU beds is 173 for a population of 4.37MM, and similarly we would run at 80-90% capacity.  During the peak of our wave 4, which has subsided but is not finished , the province scraped together 350+ ICU beds by essentially draining the rest of the system, including the pediatric ICU’s.  The number of COVID patients in ICUs peaked at 265 and I believe we were running with about 80 non COVID patients in the ICUs during that time.  Our ICU numbers were only holding steady due to COVID deaths opening up beds on a daily basis.  You certainly did not want to suffer a bad car accident at that time. 

81.5% of Albertans 12 and over are fully, double dose vaccinated as of today, i am not sure what it was when the peak was going on 6 weeks ago, but suspect that it was about 5% points lower. 

The province delayed 30000 elective surgeries during waves 1-3, but delayed another 15000 during wave 4 alone.  The army was called in for support, ICU nurses brought in from out of province, and resources were put in place with the feds to transfer patients out of province (but I don’t believe that ended up happening).

That is what an overwhelmed medical system looks like, and is not something I would like to see repeated.  I was one of those delayed surgeries, I was diagnosed early wave 3, but managed only to get my procedure done in wave 4 because my situation turned emergent. 

[alsoknownasDean]

Situation here is returning to normal as well, at least for those of us who are fully vaccinated.

New cases are on a slow decline (about 1000 per day in Victoria, 250 in NSW and a handful in the ACT) and restrictions are easing. Hospitalisation numbers here in Victoria are about half of what they were in late October. Double vaccination rates for 12+ in Victoria are currently around 88% and NSW/ACT are over 90%. The number of vaccines delivered per day has fallen from over 300,000 per day to around 100-150,000 per day.

https://covidlive.com.au/report/vaccinations-age-band-low

Vaccination rates nationally are now about the same as in Norway.

From tomorrow (here in Vic) masks will be only required in certain indoor settings, no density limits on hospitality/etc and quarantine requirements will change. Shops are all already open, cafes and restaurants open, etc.

State/territory borders between NSW/VIC/ACT are open, and the 'COVID-free' states will mostly open gradually from December once they hit their own vaccination thresholds. Understandably there's a reluctance to open borders to areas with community transmission when you have had none for months, especially as those COVID-free states generally have lower vaccination rates.

I've started going back to the office one day per week, and will probably go in two days a week between now and Christmas. The main thing preventing me from going in more often is a reluctance to use public transport (too risky), and driving in gets expensive.

[middo]

As a teacher in Melbourne Australia, we have been back in the classroom for about a month now.  Tomorrow the high schools will be mask free, but primary schools will need masks for year 3 to 6 as they can't be vaccinated yet.

[deborah]

Where I live in Australia, we have more than 95% over 12 double vaccinated (it's more like 98% but they're not counting anything above 95%). Australia has rapidly overtaken many other OECD countries in our vaccination rates, and are currently 14th of 38 countries - considering that we were just about last when this thread started, we're doing pretty well. All states have put out timetables when borders will open, and most will be open very soon (WA is the outlier). And we can travel overseas.

[habanero]

Where I live in Australia, we have more than 95% over 12 double vaccinated (it's more like 98% but they're not counting anything above 95%). Australia has rapidly overtaken many other OECD countries in our vaccination rates, and are currently 14th of 38 countries - considering that we were just about last when this thread started, we're doing pretty well. All states have put out timetables when borders will open, and most will be open very soon (WA is the outlier). And we can travel overseas.

Countrywide we (Norway) have roughly 85% of eligible population vaxxed (we only do down to 12 years), about 78% of total population. Despite this hospitalizations are now on the rise and case count is the highest ever, even with significantly less testing than earlier so actual number estimated to be about twice as high. There is chatter about taking some measures like proof of vaccination for entrance to certain stuff etc, but so far there isn't really aything going on. I took the tram yesterday for first time in ages and there was 1 person with a face mask, the other 100 without.

A pretty large share of the cases is in the younger cohorts but over the last few weeks the case count has gone up significantly also over 18 years.

A prorbably more interesting stat is that median age of hospitalized is 77 for the vaccinated and 47 for the unvaccinated.

So bottom line based on our local experience is that a high vacc rate alone won't cut it. There isn't much drama up here, but there is some surprise as to how fast the numbers rose despite very good vaxx rates.

Scope of 3rd dose has now been broadened to everyone over 18.

[middo]

Where I live in Australia, we have more than 95% over 12 double vaccinated (it's more like 98% but they're not counting anything above 95%). Australia has rapidly overtaken many other OECD countries in our vaccination rates, and are currently 14th of 38 countries - considering that we were just about last when this thread started, we're doing pretty well. All states have put out timetables when borders will open, and most will be open very soon (WA is the outlier). And we can travel overseas.

Countrywide we (Norway) have roughly 85% of eligible population vaxxed (we only do down to 12 years), about 78% of total population. Despite this hospitalizations are now on the rise and case count is the highest ever, even with significantly less testing than earlier so actual number estimated to be about twice as high. There is chatter about taking some measures like proof of vaccination for entrance to certain stuff etc, but so far there isn't really aything going on. I took the tram yesterday for first time in ages and there was 1 person with a face mask, the other 100 without.

A pretty large share of the cases is in the younger cohorts but over the last few weeks the case count has gone up significantly also over 18 years.

A prorbably more interesting stat is that median age of hospitalized is 77 for the vaccinated and 47 for the unvaccinated.

So bottom line based on our local experience is that a high vacc rate alone won't cut it. There isn't much drama up here, but there is some surprise as to how fast the numbers rose despite very good vaxx rates.

Scope of 3rd dose has now been broadened to everyone over 18.

Our third dose in Australia is just rolling out. My daughter who is a doctor and one of the very first vaxxed here had her third last week

Victoria requires public transport travel to be masked, and major public events to have only double vaxxed people in attendance. We are entering a new world with our reopening, but I am a bit excited to feel that life is getting back to some semblance of normal.

[chevy1956]

Interesting thread. I'm in Sydney. I think we are doing exceptionally well atm. I think our approach has worked in relation to loss of life and I don't think the lockdowns have been too bad. I think it will be interesting what happens over the next 6 months.

[happy]

Well this explains a lot. Darkly hilarious. I think Australians for the most part just don't have the same obsession with "FREEDOM!" as some Americans. Don't invade us please, I've got a lovely holiday down the coast planned for next week!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-23/joe-rogan-ted-cruz-and-fox-new-criticise-australian-covid-policy/100553548

Just catching up on this interesting thread.

I'd say darkly hilarious is an optimistic take...I think its downright scary.
I don't feel oppressed at all! I'm happy to live in a place where,  by and large, we can all work together for the common good, if you define common good as preventing people from dying from an extremely unpleasant, premature, respiratory death.
Do I like lockdowns? No. Do I like wearing a mask indoor or outdoors? No, not particularly, but its not exactly a hardship even though my glass fog up a lot. In fact I count myself lucky that I live somewhere where I can afford as many masks as I want without blinking an eye.
Meanwhile I am watching weekly death rates in US..which seem to have dropped from 12,000 a week a couple of months ago to a mere 8,000 a week. Feel free to not wear a mask, carry a gun and die from COVID if it makes you feel better.
Rant over/