Author Topic: Coronavirus is the End of Trump  (Read 36972 times)

Brother Esau

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #400 on: March 27, 2020, 05:25:26 PM »
The sky is falling! Just like back in 2008.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't recall hospitals in New York buying refrigerated tractor trailers to load dead into because they were running out of morgue space in 2008.

Oh! didn't know that. I guess it's time to freak out, panic, and go hoard TP. Thank you for that information.

Do you actually have an opinion on the facts being presented or are you just here to mock anyone who acknowledges there might be a  problem?

Obviously no one is advocating panic and tp hoarding because those things accomplish nothing regardless of the severity of the situation. Obviously the sky isn't falling, we'll get past this as a society and most of us will survive.

But your initial argument was that the US government is handling the situation well. Since then lots of evidence to the contrary has been presented and your only response is sarcasm. If you wish to avoid negative thinking outside your circle of control, that's fine and maybe it's the right choice for you, but mocking people for discussing the reality of the situation isn't helping anyone. This is not TopIsIn.

Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #401 on: March 27, 2020, 07:46:44 PM »
The sky is falling! Just like back in 2008.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't recall hospitals in New York buying refrigerated tractor trailers to load dead into because they were running out of morgue space in 2008.

Oh! didn't know that. I guess it's time to freak out, panic, and go hoard TP. Thank you for that information.

Do you actually have an opinion on the facts being presented or are you just here to mock anyone who acknowledges there might be a  problem?

Obviously no one is advocating panic and tp hoarding because those things accomplish nothing regardless of the severity of the situation. Obviously the sky isn't falling, we'll get past this as a society and most of us will survive.

But your initial argument was that the US government is handling the situation well. Since then lots of evidence to the contrary has been presented and your only response is sarcasm. If you wish to avoid negative thinking outside your circle of control, that's fine and maybe it's the right choice for you, but mocking people for discussing the reality of the situation isn't helping anyone. This is not TopIsIn.

Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

Unfortunately, that's completely true.

Brother Esau

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #402 on: March 27, 2020, 08:02:51 PM »
The sky is falling! Just like back in 2008.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't recall hospitals in New York buying refrigerated tractor trailers to load dead into because they were running out of morgue space in 2008.

Oh! didn't know that. I guess it's time to freak out, panic, and go hoard TP. Thank you for that information.

Do you actually have an opinion on the facts being presented or are you just here to mock anyone who acknowledges there might be a  problem?

Obviously no one is advocating panic and tp hoarding because those things accomplish nothing regardless of the severity of the situation. Obviously the sky isn't falling, we'll get past this as a society and most of us will survive.

But your initial argument was that the US government is handling the situation well. Since then lots of evidence to the contrary has been presented and your only response is sarcasm. If you wish to avoid negative thinking outside your circle of control, that's fine and maybe it's the right choice for you, but mocking people for discussing the reality of the situation isn't helping anyone. This is not TopIsIn.

Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

Unfortunately, that's completely true.

:-(

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #403 on: March 27, 2020, 08:55:07 PM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #404 on: March 27, 2020, 09:32:56 PM »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #405 on: March 27, 2020, 11:49:11 PM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.
You're saying the same thing.

"as well as in the past" = "more poorly than should be expected."

I don't know why anyone who was an adult during Hurricane Katrina would expect the US to handle national disasters well. Hope for? Sure. Expect? No.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #406 on: March 28, 2020, 07:04:25 AM »

dandarc

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #407 on: March 28, 2020, 07:51:46 AM »

JGS1980

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #408 on: March 28, 2020, 07:54:54 AM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

Reminds me of the classic Churchill quote;

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #409 on: March 28, 2020, 10:35:33 AM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.
You're saying the same thing.

"as well as in the past" = "more poorly than should be expected."

I don't know why anyone who was an adult during Hurricane Katrina would expect the US to handle national disasters well. Hope for? Sure. Expect? No.

I'd give the US gov't a C for Katrina, a D for Iraq, and an F minus minus for this epidemic.  The fact that the US is spiraling out of control worse than every other country on the planet after being given a head start on preparing is beyond failing.  And we're nowhere near heading in the right direction, other than putting a 2T band-aid on our gaping, mostly self inflicted wound.

Brother Esau

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #410 on: March 28, 2020, 04:20:47 PM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

Reminds me of the classic Churchill quote;

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

Churchill:

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was appalling to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, but that night he "slept the sleep of the saved and thankful." The US would enter the war.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #411 on: March 28, 2020, 06:47:17 PM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

Reminds me of the classic Churchill quote;

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

Churchill:

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was appalling to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, but that night he "slept the sleep of the saved and thankful." The US would enter the war.

Better late than never, huh?

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #412 on: March 29, 2020, 07:02:26 AM »
Last night on the official White House Facebook page, I saw a comment from a woman in Michigan. She was begging the President to not withhold ventilators and other aid from Michigan because their governor didnít support him. She ended her comment by saying, ďShe might not believe in you, but many other people here do, including me.Ē

So, she actually knew/feared that Trump was about to withhold aid to the citizens of an entire state, including her and her loved ones, because their governor hurt his feelings ó and she still believes in him.

This kind of lunacy is why I donít think coronavirus is the end of Trump.

Brother Esau

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #413 on: March 29, 2020, 07:16:13 AM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

Reminds me of the classic Churchill quote;

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

Churchill:

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was appalling to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, but that night he "slept the sleep of the saved and thankful." The US would enter the war.

Better late than never, huh?

You're welcome.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #414 on: March 29, 2020, 07:21:15 AM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

Reminds me of the classic Churchill quote;

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

Churchill:

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was appalling to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, but that night he "slept the sleep of the saved and thankful." The US would enter the war.

Better late than never, huh?

You're welcome.

Self-interest that masquerades as heroism.

Quintessentially American.

sui generis

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #415 on: March 29, 2020, 09:35:05 AM »
Last night on the official White House Facebook page, I saw a comment from a woman in Michigan. She was begging the President to not withhold ventilators and other aid from Michigan because their governor didnít support him. She ended her comment by saying, ďShe might not believe in you, but many other people here do, including me.Ē

So, she actually knew/feared that Trump was about to withhold aid to the citizens of an entire state, including her and her loved ones, because their governor hurt his feelings ó and she still believes in him.

This kind of lunacy is why I donít think coronavirus is the end of Trump.

Completely unbelievable to me, but I guess I've had to come to terms with the fact that I'm not normal, so maybe not surprised.

What does surprise me though is that we Americans often make a lot about being hostile to being told what to do and tyranny from government, given our history. I especially associate this attitude with the kind of people who are Trump supporters. Yet they're happy to be obsequious to him?

Many people I've always thought were too proud to lick anyone's boots have spent many public appearances doing just that. And somehow the disgusting picture they make is unimportant, and they become more popular for being a boot licker. Usually Americans would reject anyone displaying these characteristics.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #416 on: March 29, 2020, 11:06:46 AM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.
You're saying the same thing.

"as well as in the past" = "more poorly than should be expected."

I don't know why anyone who was an adult during Hurricane Katrina would expect the US to handle national disasters well. Hope for? Sure. Expect? No.

This is such a dumb take. How did the govt handle Ebola and H1N1 vs covid-19?

"The U.S. govt poorly handled a natural disaster 15 years ago, therefore of course the govt would handle a global pandemic poorly" just lacks all logic.  It ignores that natural disasters are different than pandemics, changes made to government agencies, etc.

I guess if there's consistencies, it's that Republican Administrations are absolutely horrible at using the powers of federal government to save lives. See: Katrina, Maria, covid-19, etc.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #417 on: March 29, 2020, 03:41:40 PM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

Reminds me of the classic Churchill quote;

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

Churchill:

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was appalling to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, but that night he "slept the sleep of the saved and thankful." The US would enter the war.

Better late than never, huh?

You're welcome.

How's that better late than never working for you in a pandemic?

Brother Esau

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #418 on: March 29, 2020, 04:40:08 PM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.

Reminds me of the classic Churchill quote;

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"

Churchill:

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was appalling to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, but that night he "slept the sleep of the saved and thankful." The US would enter the war.

Better late than never, huh?

You're welcome.

How's that better late than never working for you in a pandemic?

See my original post

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #419 on: March 29, 2020, 08:17:42 PM »
"The U.S. govt poorly handled a natural disaster 15 years ago, therefore of course the govt would handle a global pandemic poorly" just lacks all logic.  It ignores that natural disasters are different than pandemics, changes made to government agencies, etc.
You have a system which handles large problems poorly. This has been demonstrated time and again, even if it's denied by a large chunk of the population, with Republicans denying all military failures, and Democrats denying all welfare failures, and so on.

You spend more than anyone else on your military, yet can't defeat a bunch of goatherds, and allow another great power to stomp over your allies freely. You spend more than anyone else on education, yet large chunks of your population lack functional literacy. You spend more than anyone else on healthcare, yet get worse outcomes of infant and maternal mortality, and have descending longevity. You spend more than anyone else on transport, yet have crumbling infrastructure. And so on.

To a degree, this is nothing inherent in the American character, though the insistence on "freedom!" means endless duplication of effort, and like the wonderful scene in The Wire where four guys struggle moving a desk through the door because nobody bothered to ask if they wanted to move it out or in, you have many groups trying to help but actually hindering each-other. That part is your character, but it's a minor issue. The main issue is simply that sufficiently complex systems will inevitably fail.

As a country or organisation encounters problems, it adds systems and staff and layers of bureaucracy and rules to deal with them. These initially help, but of course have gaps. So more systems and staff and layers of bureaucracy and rules are come up with - and each addition helps by a smaller amount, until those diminishing returns become negative returns, which is to say that things get worse. As things get worse, the response is of course to... do it all again, and make things worse still.

And this is what leads to the collapse of complex societies. One of the unfortunate aspects of collapse is that each step down is followed by a slight recovery, so that everyone thinks things are picking up and there's no need to change anything fundamental - which then continues undermining things and leads to the next drop down.

It's hard to see it. A fish can't see the water. There are things which you'll be able to see clearly about my country I won't be aware of, too. 

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #420 on: March 30, 2020, 01:49:20 AM »
"The U.S. govt poorly handled a natural disaster 15 years ago, therefore of course the govt would handle a global pandemic poorly" just lacks all logic.  It ignores that natural disasters are different than pandemics, changes made to government agencies, etc.
You have a system which handles large problems poorly. This has been demonstrated time and again, even if it's denied by a large chunk of the population, with Republicans denying all military failures, and Democrats denying all welfare failures, and so on.

You spend more than anyone else on your military, yet can't defeat a bunch of goatherds, and allow another great power to stomp over your allies freely. You spend more than anyone else on education, yet large chunks of your population lack functional literacy. You spend more than anyone else on healthcare, yet get worse outcomes of infant and maternal mortality, and have descending longevity. You spend more than anyone else on transport, yet have crumbling infrastructure. And so on.

To a degree, this is nothing inherent in the American character, though the insistence on "freedom!" means endless duplication of effort, and like the wonderful scene in The Wire where four guys struggle moving a desk through the door because nobody bothered to ask if they wanted to move it out or in, you have many groups trying to help but actually hindering each-other. That part is your character, but it's a minor issue. The main issue is simply that sufficiently complex systems will inevitably fail.

As a country or organisation encounters problems, it adds systems and staff and layers of bureaucracy and rules to deal with them. These initially help, but of course have gaps. So more systems and staff and layers of bureaucracy and rules are come up with - and each addition helps by a smaller amount, until those diminishing returns become negative returns, which is to say that things get worse. As things get worse, the response is of course to... do it all again, and make things worse still.

And this is what leads to the collapse of complex societies. One of the unfortunate aspects of collapse is that each step down is followed by a slight recovery, so that everyone thinks things are picking up and there's no need to change anything fundamental - which then continues undermining things and leads to the next drop down.

It's hard to see it. A fish can't see the water. There are things which you'll be able to see clearly about my country I won't be aware of, too.

This is all completely true. Americans are so insistent on individual freedoms that they have hamstrung any ability to work under one leader with one aim. You're a country run by committee. You know what they say about committees - a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #421 on: March 30, 2020, 02:08:16 AM »
Again, it's partly cultural, but it's also just what inevitably happens with large and complex countries.


https://www.amazon.com.au/Collapse-Complex-Societies-Studies-Archaeology-ebook/dp/B001AOZ3PM

talltexan

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #422 on: March 30, 2020, 06:18:19 AM »
Of course it's a problem. It's more than a "problem" , it's a crisis. My opinion is that the U.S. is dealing with it as well as we've dealt with past problems. Flame away....

That's your opinion.  I think the US is dealing with this particular problem at this particular time much more poorly than should be expected.  We have plenty of smart people, resources, and national pride to do better.
You're saying the same thing.

"as well as in the past" = "more poorly than should be expected."

I don't know why anyone who was an adult during Hurricane Katrina would expect the US to handle national disasters well. Hope for? Sure. Expect? No.

I'd give the US gov't a C for Katrina, a D for Iraq, and an F minus minus for this epidemic.  The fact that the US is spiraling out of control worse than every other country on the planet after being given a head start on preparing is beyond failing.  And we're nowhere near heading in the right direction, other than putting a 2T band-aid on our gaping, mostly self inflicted wound.

How would you grade the US's handling of hurricane Harvey? (I noticed the Houston location in your profile)

projekt

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #423 on: March 30, 2020, 10:45:22 AM »
Again, it's partly cultural, but it's also just what inevitably happens with large and complex countries.


https://www.amazon.com.au/Collapse-Complex-Societies-Studies-Archaeology-ebook/dp/B001AOZ3PM

World's smallest hyperlink. The Collapse of Complex Societies

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #424 on: March 30, 2020, 12:13:04 PM »
author=AnnaGrowsAMustache

This is all completely true. Americans are so insistent on individual freedoms that they have hamstrung any ability to work under one leader with one aim. You're a country run by committee. You know what they say about committees - a camel is a horse designed by a committee.
[/quote]


'Tis true.


One-leader, one-aim  governance  is repugnant to  the undergirding,  constitutional principle of dispersion of power and antithetical to democratic diversity in all its forms.

America's founders held that the security of  unalienable rights necessitated government that derived its  "just powers from the consent of the governed."

America's population is ~330,000,000.

In 2018, ~153,000,000 people were registered to vote.

Thus,  the  "governed"  is a  committee as it were, comprised of hundreds of millions of people, who, if governance is to be just, must consent to all manner of it.

A committee of such  colossal proportion  does not  conduce to quick passage  of legislation or easily reached governmental consensus.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 12:17:26 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #425 on: March 30, 2020, 12:35:25 PM »
America's population is ~330,000,000.

In 2018, ~153,000,000 people were registered to vote.


Woah.  Is it even really a democracy if half the people can't vote?

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #426 on: March 30, 2020, 12:39:37 PM »
America's population is ~330,000,000.

In 2018, ~153,000,000 people were registered to vote.


Woah.  Is it even really a democracy if half the people can't vote?

That population includes non-citizens, citizens younger than 18 years of age, and people who did not opt to register in opt-in states.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #427 on: March 30, 2020, 12:44:29 PM »
America's population is ~330,000,000.

In 2018, ~153,000,000 people were registered to vote.


Woah.  Is it even really a democracy if half the people can't vote?

At least some of them don't bother. So it's not that they can't, it's that they won't.

For many of them, though, they are stymied by lack of convenient polling places, or the lack of a national election day so they have to work and can't get time off, or bosses that won't let them leave and come back...

For still others, they don't bother because gerrymandering and other practices have made the elections in their area so non-competitive as to be a joke.

And then, of course, there are the ones whose vote a certain political party does its best to suppress... and has largely succeeded...

dandarc

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #428 on: March 30, 2020, 01:21:57 PM »
Also have to be 18 years old to vote in the US, because you can't really trust children to make good decisions. So that's like 70 or 80 million of that 330 million population.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #429 on: March 30, 2020, 01:26:32 PM »
Also have to be 18 years old to vote in the US, because you can't really trust children to make good decisions. So that's like 70 or 80 million of that 330 million population.

Sadly, I actually laughed out loud at your comment. Not that you aren't correct. But just that these days, the idea that adults can be trusted to make good decisions... well, yeah. :laughs in tired:

dandarc

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #430 on: March 30, 2020, 01:28:20 PM »
Also have to be 18 years old to vote in the US, because you can't really trust children to make good decisions. So that's like 70 or 80 million of that 330 million population.

Sadly, I actually laughed out loud at your comment. Not that you aren't correct. But just that these days, the idea that adults can be trusted to make good decisions... well, yeah. :laughs in tired:
I was going to say something about the current administration and deleted it before posting - glad you read between the lines there.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #431 on: March 30, 2020, 01:38:12 PM »
America's population is ~330,000,000.

In 2018, ~153,000,000 people were registered to vote.


Woah.  Is it even really a democracy if half the people can't vote?

Many who are eligible to register to vote do not.

Many registered voters do not vote.


The ~330,000,000  includes persons <18 who are not eligible to vote and others  not eligible.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 01:41:37 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #432 on: March 30, 2020, 02:28:30 PM »
I'm a weirdo who has issues with many eligibility requirements.  Generally, I think that the government should always err on the side of allowing a person to vote.

I've never seen a valid reason to disallow a 17 year old from voting.  Or a prisoner.  Or someone who is a long term resident but not a citizen.  It seems to me that problems usually arise from denying someone a right to vote, but almost never from being too permissive.

MDM

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #433 on: March 30, 2020, 02:38:53 PM »
I've never seen a valid reason to disallow a 17 year old from voting.
How about age 16? 15? ... 1?

Of course 18 is arbitrary, but how does one implement non-arbitrary criteria for voter eligibility? 

One suggestion might be "anyone who could pass a voter's intelligence test should be allowed to vote."  Good in theory, but that approach has worked poorly in practice.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #434 on: March 30, 2020, 02:45:01 PM »
I've never seen a valid reason to disallow a 17 year old from voting.
How about age 16? 15? ... 1?

Of course 18 is arbitrary, but how does one implement non-arbitrary criteria for voter eligibility? 

One suggestion might be "anyone who could pass a voter's intelligence test should be allowed to vote."  Good in theory, but that approach has worked poorly in practice.

At one point, that was the main reason that I could logically agree with age limits.  But these days I'd argue that anyone capable of and interested in selecting someone from the list should be allowed to vote.  If a six year old wants to vote, let 'em.  (Without help from parents obviously.)  I bet there would be either:
- so few of these votes that it wouldn't matter
- they would be random enough to not have any appreciable change in outcomes


As you mentioned, there's nothing preventing stupid people from voting because it's way too easily abused.  . . . and their vote is way more dangerous than the toddler vote.  I'd rather err on the side of permissiveness.  Seems like the least objectionable way forward.

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #435 on: March 30, 2020, 04:09:43 PM »
So, are we assuming that the folks that don't vote would make a better decision than the ones who are voting?  If not, how would the outcome improve?


Besides, didn't Putin sway the vote for Trump?  If more people had chosen to vote would fewer of them, or more of them, have been influenced by Russia?




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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #436 on: March 30, 2020, 05:12:05 PM »
At one point, that was the main reason that I could logically agree with age limits.  But these days I'd argue that anyone capable of and interested in selecting someone from the list should be allowed to vote.  If a six year old wants to vote, let 'em. 
I would say that if a bunch of six year olds voting would make no substantial difference to the outcomes of your system, there is something profoundly wrong with your system.

The dismal failing of US democracy notwithstanding, and speaking more generally: the other aspect is: our society lacks rites of passage, and rituals and markers generally. We scorn the old time courtship rituals, and they do seem excessively rigid to me, but I would also say that the prevalence of date rape, and things like people sending penis pictures on dating apps and going on dates with 100+ people and yet never settling down with anyone even for a few months - well, a complete lack of structure isn't helping people.

Historically, it's not only stone age cultures with rites of passage - for example, the Jewish bar/bat mitzvah continues today. In this, the child reads a passage from Torah, which is to say, they demonstrate their ability to read and understand some aspect of the Law, and thus participate as an (almost) adult in the wider community.

With this in mind, there may be a benefit in having various rights tied to particular ages and/or tests. At this age you can have sex, at this age you can have sex, at this age you can drive, at this age you can vote, at this age you can marry, and so on. Consider the various requirements countries put on migrants becoming citizens - what if we imposed them on the native born population, too?

There are many possibilities, not all of them bad.

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #437 on: March 30, 2020, 08:02:56 PM »
Again, it's partly cultural, but it's also just what inevitably happens with large and complex countries.


https://www.amazon.com.au/Collapse-Complex-Societies-Studies-Archaeology-ebook/dp/B001AOZ3PM

I don't think that it has as much to do with the size of the United States as it does its fundamental nature.

Compare the USA to China in this - China is much more equipped culturally to handle, well, anything like this, because their country is much more top-down oriented as far as power structures go.

The United States is fundamentally different in this regard because since inception, states and even municipalities within states have ownership over many civic aspects. You see this in all sorts of ways in "peacetime" - different laws/regulations, different tax structures (some very different between states), schools, etc. All of these things are more or less operated at the state or county/city level.

What this means is that when there is something big that affects the whole USA in this fashion, it is difficult to effectively coordinate and organize a cohesive national response because nearly by definition the USA isn't structured to operate this way. This is particularly true with something less "obvious" for lack of better word in severity than covid-19.

The practical implication is need there to be actual leadership at the federal level to persuade/convince states to follow a coordinated plan. Which is pretty clearly missing now.

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #438 on: March 30, 2020, 08:17:50 PM »
I don't think that it has as much to do with the size of the United States as it does its fundamental nature.

Compare the USA to China in this - China is much more equipped culturally to handle, well, anything like this, because their country is much more top-down oriented as far as power structures go.
The US has been building up complex systems since 1776, or arguably, 1865. PRC has been doing it since 1949. The US has just had longer to build up needless counterproductive bureaucracy, and let more pigs get their snouts in the trough.

But in either case: China's been held up as an example of successfully handling this. I disagree. Successful handling of an epidemic would mean minimising loss of lives while minimising economic damage (which kills people, too). They've demonstrated neither so far, and we still need another year or two to assess this, since their opening things up again may create another wave of deaths.

RoK, Taiwan, HK and Singapore offer us better models so far. They're all countries which have been independent for much less time than the US, and are much smaller.

The USA's best hope is devolution of powers to states, or secession. Just consider what would happen if a budget/debt ceiling impasse in Congress, rather than giving a shutdown of federal agencies for a week or two, if it lasted 12 months. At some point the states would step in to collect the revenue the federal government wasn't so they could provide the services the federal government wasn't. Just temporarily, of course.

Now, the state systems are not desperately efficient, either. That's why Seattle spends $100,000 per homeless person on services yet still has homeless (just giving them $50k each would cost half as much and probably be much more effective). but they are less inefficient than the federal one.

I agree that American character and culture are a significant part of it. But a large part is simply the size and age of the country. It's like heart disease: yes, there is a genetic component, but if you're 80 years old, or if you're 400lbs, you're going to have problems whatever your genetics. The ones with bad genes just cop it at 200lbs or 40 years old, instead.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #439 on: April 01, 2020, 11:04:43 AM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.


Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #440 on: April 01, 2020, 12:53:58 PM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.


Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.

I have no doubt whatsoever that China did that.  Having a big outbreak looks bad on a country.  But by not providing working tests to any of the states for the first month that the virus was spreading through the country, didn't the US effectively under-report the extent of the coronavirus outbreak - both total cases and deaths?

dandarc

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #441 on: April 01, 2020, 01:03:23 PM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.



Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.

I have no doubt whatsoever that China did that.  Having a big outbreak looks bad on a country.  But by not providing working tests to any of the states for the first month that the virus was spreading through the country, didn't the US effectively under-report the extent of the coronavirus outbreak - both total cases and deaths?
Our president is on-record saying that he wanted to suppress the numbers.

sui generis

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #442 on: April 01, 2020, 01:06:58 PM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.


Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.

I have no doubt whatsoever that China did that.  Having a big outbreak looks bad on a country.  But by not providing working tests to any of the states for the first month that the virus was spreading through the country, didn't the US effectively under-report the extent of the coronavirus outbreak - both total cases and deaths?

That may be, but there's a difference between purposeful underreporting of information you have and underreporting because you don't have information (whether due to gross incompetence or not).  Even if there is underreporting because the information was purposely not collected (as some might argue is a fair characterization of the US), it's still not as bad as having information you refuse to share.  Though closer to that than to not having the information through incompetence, I'd propose.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #443 on: April 01, 2020, 01:14:17 PM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.


Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.

I have no doubt whatsoever that China did that.  Having a big outbreak looks bad on a country.  But by not providing working tests to any of the states for the first month that the virus was spreading through the country, didn't the US effectively under-report the extent of the coronavirus outbreak - both total cases and deaths?

That may be, but there's a difference between purposeful underreporting of information you have and underreporting because you don't have information (whether due to gross incompetence or not).  Even if there is underreporting because the information was purposely not collected (as some might argue is a fair characterization of the US), it's still not as bad as having information you refuse to share.  Though closer to that than to not having the information through incompetence, I'd propose.

Yeah, but it's not that the tests were impossible to get.  Trump turned down an offer of tests from Germany.  Why would he do that if he wasn't trying to hide what was happening?

bacchi

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #444 on: April 01, 2020, 01:23:54 PM »
Yeah, but it's not that the tests were impossible to get.  Trump turned down an offer of tests from Germany.  Why would he do that if he wasn't trying to hide what was happening?

Because he truly has a God complex and thought he could flatten the curve with his will?

He was taking a guess? If he was right, and it was a nothingburger, he looks like a genius. If not, his base will forget.

Or..."Buy America" sounds better to his base than "Supplied by the UN"?

dandarc

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #445 on: April 01, 2020, 01:29:42 PM »
@bacchi  but the left are the ones politicizing this . . .

PKFFW

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #446 on: April 01, 2020, 03:17:08 PM »
Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.
Personally I have little doubt the US intelligence community is correct in this assertion.

However, I find it funny the US intelligence community is believed in this assertion when so much time and effort has gone in to discrediting that same community when it asserted Russia influenced the 2016 election.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #447 on: April 01, 2020, 04:05:54 PM »
Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.
Personally I have little doubt the US intelligence community is correct in this assertion.

However, I find it funny the US intelligence community is believed in this assertion when so much time and effort has gone in to discrediting that same community when it asserted Russia influenced the 2016 election.

Yep.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #448 on: April 01, 2020, 06:43:47 PM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.


Before you go pinning the "country of the year" award on China, might want to look at this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-concealed-extent-virus-outbreak-151550902.html

"(Bloomberg) -- China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths itís suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials."

Also note it is Bloomberg, not Fox news.

I have no doubt whatsoever that China did that.  Having a big outbreak looks bad on a country.  But by not providing working tests to any of the states for the first month that the virus was spreading through the country, didn't the US effectively under-report the extent of the coronavirus outbreak - both total cases and deaths?

That may be, but there's a difference between purposeful underreporting of information you have and underreporting because you don't have information (whether due to gross incompetence or not).  Even if there is underreporting because the information was purposely not collected (as some might argue is a fair characterization of the US), it's still not as bad as having information you refuse to share.  Though closer to that than to not having the information through incompetence, I'd propose.

Yeah, but it's not that the tests were impossible to get.  Trump turned down an offer of tests from Germany.  Why would he do that if he wasn't trying to hide what was happening?

I think it was simpler than that. He doesn't like Angela. I mean why would he? She's not a bimbo and if he grabbed her by the pussy, she'd have his arm off! He's that petty that he would turn down tests.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #449 on: April 01, 2020, 09:37:23 PM »
I think it was simpler than that. He doesn't like Angela. I mean why would he? She's not a bimbo and if he grabbed her by the pussy, she'd have his arm off! He's that petty that he would turn down tests.

What a mind picture.  Wouldn't that make an interesting video?  I'm sure it would go viral.