Author Topic: Coronavirus is the End of Trump  (Read 52751 times)

gentmach

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #250 on: March 21, 2020, 08:45:53 AM »
Iran is crippled with Corona. Thanks to sanctions they can't get medical supplies from anywhere. The sanctions are doing their job.

This caught my eye. How fucking horrible do you have to be as a human being to root for people to suffer and die? Just awful.

Wow. Yeah, that is pretty freaking grotesque, gentmach.

What are you talking about? It's it great that innocent people in an adversarial country are dying en masse? /s

And this is why we have to give Trump no quarter when it comes to who is to blame. His supporters literally cheer the death of innocent people. Like what the fuck are we talking about?
Their leaders decided they needed nuclear weapons more than they needed medical supplies. Why aren't you upset about that?

I fixed your quote-nesting for you. Another approach would have been to actually reply to the correct post if you wanted to only respond to MasterStache.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with that comment, but your doubling-down proves me wrong. This is just vile.

Iran was complying with the nuclear treaty and everyone knows it. Every single country and agency in the world says so except for Trump, including Trump's own State Department. Take your lies and cheering-for-the-deaths-of-innocent-people somewhere else.

Even if they weren't complying, why cheer the death of their civilians? Do you think dude selling pitas is the one who made the decision to try to develop nukes?

Have some compassion. I don't think anyone is defending Iranian leaders. But to say it's great that they can't get medical supplies to their people is on another level.

Note that the US government has also chosen to have nukes (more military spending) instead of more medical supplies, but I don't think you'll be happy if your parents/loved ones die now due to this choice.

EDIT: More importantly, I won't be happy that people die due to this choice either, even though I was against more military spending.

Personally I would allow Iran to have nukes. The simplicity of "Mutually Assured Destruction" doctrine being appealing to me. It would be better to have them as a trading partner. But some people disagree with that stance and I can understand that.

Their leaders could negotiate for relief but they don't want to. I'm not going to tell Iranians how to run their country. If they are disappointed they can express it at the next election.

It isn't that I lack compassion. Simply, what exactly are we supposed to do? Send care packages? Compassion without action is simply "sending thoughts and prayers." What does that accomplish?

Telecaster

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #251 on: March 21, 2020, 09:39:16 AM »
Just as you accept firearms deaths as the price you pay for the right to bear arms, so too you must accept disaster and pandemic deaths as the price you pay for regulation and checks and balances. That's just the system you choose to live under.

Bullshit. 

The administration's response has been a steady stream of lies, denials, fingerpointing, mixed messages and bumbling.  When this first broke, Trump went into denial mode.  Hence his administration went into denial mode.  Top officials from Trump on down said there was no problem, it was contained, it would go away on its own, patients were getting better, and therefore we didn't have to take it seriously.

In testimony before congress the acting director of DHS (like many agencies, DHS has an acting director instead of an appointed director because Trump is too lazy to nominate anyone) was unable to state even basic details about coronavirus.  A couple weeks later DHS rolled out airport screening and guess what?  It was a big disaster.  Trump only wants to hear what he wants to hear, so he surrounds himself with suckasses.   That's great for his ego, but the suckasses don't dare do or say anything that might upset the boss. 

You may have heard the first community transmission in the US occurred in Washington State.  The reason why we know that is a research group (Seattle Flu Study) became alarmed and asked permission from FDA to start testing and were denied.  They concluded it was unethical NOT to test and sure enough found coronavirus.  FDA still got all pissed off at them.  This is a public health emergency.  It is okay to suspend rules in an emergency.  But the suckasses didn't dare. 

And the stream of lies just won't stop.   Trump is still lying about test kit availability.  Two days ago he said hydroquinine would be approved "very soon."  FDA had to walk that one back and say they don't have a timeline.  He constantly contradicts his own public health advisers.  Trump's lies and finger pointing have been picked up and parroted by his surrogates in the media like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, which leads to even more confusion.

When Trump finally decided he needed a task force, he originally packed it with political and financial people.  The health care experts came later.  You know who hasn't been sucking Trump's ass?  CDC.  You know who don't see on stage at the pressers?  Someone from CDC.   You know, the government agency whose actual job is disease control.  Trump doesn't like them so they're out of the picture.  Does that sound smart to you?  Is sounds stupid as shit to me. 

Trump didn't create the virus and he didn't spread it to these shores.   But he sure as fuck has bumbled the response. 

MasterStache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #252 on: March 21, 2020, 09:46:09 AM »
Their leaders could negotiate for relief but they don't want to. I'm not going to tell Iranians how to run their country. If they are disappointed they can express it at the next election.

It isn't that I lack compassion. Simply, what exactly are we supposed to do? Send care packages? Compassion without action is simply "sending thoughts and prayers." What does that accomplish?

Iranians should not be forced to negotiate for human lives. Secondly, Iran does not exist in a vacuum. They rely on medicine, equipment, vaccines etc. that they cannot produce themselves. It was reported long before the Caronavirus came about that the US sanctions were making it extremely difficult for Iranians to obtain simply vaccines.

And yes you do lack compassion. In fact that's a gross understatement. You could have realized the grotesque nature of your comment and at least tried make some shitty excuses for it, but you've only doubled down. You cannot take back your decision to applaud the needless suffering and death of innocent people. You could have simply pointed out some of the unintended outcomes of the sanctions. But instead, you took it way beyond and claimed the sanctions were doing their job.

BTW, medical supplies are not part of the sanctions. In fact they are exempt. However, hammering away at the financial industry makes it exponentially more difficult to obtain medical supplies, medicine etc.   

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #253 on: March 21, 2020, 11:12:48 AM »
Just as you accept firearms deaths as the price you pay for the right to bear arms, so too you must accept disaster and pandemic deaths as the price you pay for regulation and checks and balances. That's just the system you choose to live under.

Bullshit. 

The administration's response has been a steady stream of lies, denials, fingerpointing, mixed messages and bumbling.  When this first broke, Trump went into denial mode.  Hence his administration went into denial mode.  Top officials from Trump on down said there was no problem, it was contained, it would go away on its own, patients were getting better, and therefore we didn't have to take it seriously.

In testimony before congress the acting director of DHS (like many agencies, DHS has an acting director instead of an appointed director because Trump is too lazy to nominate anyone) was unable to state even basic details about coronavirus.  A couple weeks later DHS rolled out airport screening and guess what?  It was a big disaster.  Trump only wants to hear what he wants to hear, so he surrounds himself with suckasses.   That's great for his ego, but the suckasses don't dare do or say anything that might upset the boss. 

You may have heard the first community transmission in the US occurred in Washington State.  The reason why we know that is a research group (Seattle Flu Study) became alarmed and asked permission from FDA to start testing and were denied.  They concluded it was unethical NOT to test and sure enough found coronavirus.  FDA still got all pissed off at them.  This is a public health emergency.  It is okay to suspend rules in an emergency.  But the suckasses didn't dare. 

And the stream of lies just won't stop.   Trump is still lying about test kit availability.  Two days ago he said hydroquinine would be approved "very soon."  FDA had to walk that one back and say they don't have a timeline.  He constantly contradicts his own public health advisers.  Trump's lies and finger pointing have been picked up and parroted by his surrogates in the media like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, which leads to even more confusion.

When Trump finally decided he needed a task force, he originally packed it with political and financial people.  The health care experts came later.  You know who hasn't been sucking Trump's ass?  CDC.  You know who don't see on stage at the pressers?  Someone from CDC.   You know, the government agency whose actual job is disease control.  Trump doesn't like them so they're out of the picture.  Does that sound smart to you?  Is sounds stupid as shit to me. 

Trump didn't create the virus and he didn't spread it to these shores.   But he sure as fuck has bumbled the response.

Everything you said 👍🏽

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #254 on: March 21, 2020, 11:50:28 AM »
China is ultimately to blame here.   

"Yet last December—before people all over China began falling sick with pneumonia-like symptoms, before people around the world grew alarmed about a disease leaping from captured wild animals to human shoppers in dense Chinese food markets, and before the coronavirus reached new shores after being carried onto planes by human hosts, forcing the World Health Organization to declare a global emergency—eight people discussed how several patients in Wuhan were experiencing severe, rapid breakdowns in their respiratory systems.


They were part of a medical school’s alumni group on WeChat, a popular social network in China, and they were concerned that SARS, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, was back.

It wasn’t long before police detained them. The authorities said these eight doctors and medical technicians were “misinforming” the public, that there was no SARS, that the information was obviously wrong, and that everyone in the city must remain calm. On the first day of 2020, Wuhan police said they had “taken legal measures” against the eight individuals who had “spread rumors.”

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #255 on: March 21, 2020, 03:16:20 PM »
I dunno.   The spin China put out doesn't sound all that different from the spin the US put out 2 months later.     The US doesn't seem to have arrested doctors though, just fired them.

Globally poor preparation for a pandemic has a lot of people, organizations and countries that could be blamed.     The fact is that we almost always learn how to deal with these catastrophes the hard way.

ctuser1

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #256 on: March 21, 2020, 03:26:31 PM »
I dunno.   The spin China put out doesn't sound all that different from the spin the US put out 2 months later.     The US doesn't seem to have arrested doctors though, just fired them.

Globally poor preparation for a pandemic has a lot of people, organizations and countries that could be blamed.     The fact is that we almost always learn how to deal with these catastrophes the hard way.

Orwellian doublespeak is not a given.

I don't remember any claims from Obama during Ebola that it is a hoax or a conservative conspiracy to make him look bad. I also haven't read about any such in news reports from Japan or South Korea.



ender

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #257 on: March 21, 2020, 10:39:46 PM »
China is ultimately to blame here.   

"Yet last December—before people all over China began falling sick with pneumonia-like symptoms, before people around the world grew alarmed about a disease leaping from captured wild animals to human shoppers in dense Chinese food markets, and before the coronavirus reached new shores after being carried onto planes by human hosts, forcing the World Health Organization to declare a global emergency—eight people discussed how several patients in Wuhan were experiencing severe, rapid breakdowns in their respiratory systems.


They were part of a medical school’s alumni group on WeChat, a popular social network in China, and they were concerned that SARS, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, was back.

It wasn’t long before police detained them. The authorities said these eight doctors and medical technicians were “misinforming” the public, that there was no SARS, that the information was obviously wrong, and that everyone in the city must remain calm. On the first day of 2020, Wuhan police said they had “taken legal measures” against the eight individuals who had “spread rumors.”

This is pretty much exactly the spin I expect Trump to do in order to make this situation look like he was a victim, regardless of whether it fizzles out or is catastrophic or something inbetween.

"It was China's fault, see, we need stronger boarders" or some variant.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #258 on: March 21, 2020, 11:32:34 PM »
China is ultimately to blame here.   

"Yet last December—before people all over China began falling sick with pneumonia-like symptoms, before people around the world grew alarmed about a disease leaping from captured wild animals to human shoppers in dense Chinese food markets, and before the coronavirus reached new shores after being carried onto planes by human hosts, forcing the World Health Organization to declare a global emergency—eight people discussed how several patients in Wuhan were experiencing severe, rapid breakdowns in their respiratory systems.


They were part of a medical school’s alumni group on WeChat, a popular social network in China, and they were concerned that SARS, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, was back.

It wasn’t long before police detained them. The authorities said these eight doctors and medical technicians were “misinforming” the public, that there was no SARS, that the information was obviously wrong, and that everyone in the city must remain calm. On the first day of 2020, Wuhan police said they had “taken legal measures” against the eight individuals who had “spread rumors.”

This is pretty much exactly the spin I expect Trump to do in order to make this situation look like he was a victim, regardless of whether it fizzles out or is catastrophic or something inbetween.

"It was China's fault, see, we need stronger boarders" or some variant.

Ultimately, a 'cool' global leader looks like a sissy when they cry and complain that someone else didn't do something all that well and blame them for suffering more infections and deaths than that 'third world country' that screwed them. 

Guess what, China has this under control and we are spinning out of control and wanting our government, with all those fantastic resources, to actually make this better.  Trump and Trump supporters blaming China at this point is like salt to the wound.  The wound that is getting bigger today, tomorrow, etc.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #259 on: March 22, 2020, 12:02:28 AM »
China is ultimately to blame here.   

"Yet last December—before people all over China began falling sick with pneumonia-like symptoms, before people around the world grew alarmed about a disease leaping from captured wild animals to human shoppers in dense Chinese food markets, and before the coronavirus reached new shores after being carried onto planes by human hosts, forcing the World Health Organization to declare a global emergency—eight people discussed how several patients in Wuhan were experiencing severe, rapid breakdowns in their respiratory systems.


They were part of a medical school’s alumni group on WeChat, a popular social network in China, and they were concerned that SARS, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, was back.

It wasn’t long before police detained them. The authorities said these eight doctors and medical technicians were “misinforming” the public, that there was no SARS, that the information was obviously wrong, and that everyone in the city must remain calm. On the first day of 2020, Wuhan police said they had “taken legal measures” against the eight individuals who had “spread rumors.”

This is pretty much exactly the spin I expect Trump to do in order to make this situation look like he was a victim, regardless of whether it fizzles out or is catastrophic or something inbetween.

"It was China's fault, see, we need stronger boarders" or some variant.

Ultimately, a 'cool' global leader looks like a sissy when they cry and complain that someone else didn't do something all that well and blame them for suffering more infections and deaths than that 'third world country' that screwed them. 

Guess what, China has this under control and we are spinning out of control and wanting our government, with all those fantastic resources, to actually make this better.  Trump and Trump supporters blaming China at this point is like salt to the wound.  The wound that is getting bigger today, tomorrow, etc.

I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #260 on: March 22, 2020, 12:40:42 AM »
To make it even more pathetic, China has a population of 1.4B and GDP of roughly 12T vs. USA having 327M and 19.4T (2017 numbers).  We have plenty of money and less people, should be easy to mitigate the severity of a pandemic, and yet here we are, blaming the past administration and other countries instead of actually doing the triage that they have done.  This is only going to continue to get worse unless we, as individuals, demand less finger pointing and more accountability and action.  Localities are doing their best to fill the gaps the federal government continues to leave open.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #261 on: March 22, 2020, 01:07:00 AM »
This is weird reasoning.  South Korea's doing massively better than the US.  Is your argument that there are no checks and balances there?  Or in the Netherlands?  That doesn't follow at all.
There are not none, but there are many less so, yes.

The US, as I said, has 16,000 different law enforcement agencies. RoK, etc do not. The USA has 50 states, and countless municipal governments with wide powers. RoK does not. The US has two houses of congress, and each of its 50 states have, as well, as well as separately-elected governors. RoK does not.

And so on and so forth.

The US is a clusterfuck of competing and overlapping agencies and organisations and departments and lobby groups and political action committees with checks and balances and regulations and procedures and people having quiet meetings off the books to get what they want done and so on and so forth. This is why you never get anything done. Now, this means your government can never do anything really awful, but it also means it can never do anything really useful.

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #262 on: March 22, 2020, 03:05:06 AM »
Not to defend Trump's response (impossible, even if by some remote chance one wanted to) but I'm not sure that comparisons to South Korea are the right ones.  That was a pretty unique case, with a high proportion of cases coming from one superspreader, Patient 31, who was known about before their superspreading event at the church.  That meant that the testing was of a limited and known population and it was practical to test widely among that limited population to chase down the lines of infection.  Other countries have unknown and multiple points of entry for the virus and without whole population testing will always be behind the infection curve.

Omy

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #263 on: March 22, 2020, 07:04:46 AM »
We had one case in mid-January. Instead of test and contain, he opted to deny and misinform.

ctuser1

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #264 on: March 22, 2020, 07:05:52 AM »
This is weird reasoning.  South Korea's doing massively better than the US.  Is your argument that there are no checks and balances there?  Or in the Netherlands?  That doesn't follow at all.
There are not none, but there are many less so, yes.

The US, as I said, has 16,000 different law enforcement agencies. RoK, etc do not. The USA has 50 states, and countless municipal governments with wide powers. RoK does not. The US has two houses of congress, and each of its 50 states have, as well, as well as separately-elected governors. RoK does not.

And so on and so forth.

The US is a clusterfuck of competing and overlapping agencies and organisations and departments and lobby groups and political action committees with checks and balances and regulations and procedures and people having quiet meetings off the books to get what they want done and so on and so forth. This is why you never get anything done. Now, this means your government can never do anything really awful, but it also means it can never do anything really useful.

There are two ways to interpret the overlapping sovereignties:
1. Lack of clear direction.
2. Multiplicity of opinions can battle it out in the open with none of them suppressed.

The idea of America is founded in the second interpretation. I dare say it has been quite successful.

Even though we have a dumbf*ck in power, individual states are taking competent actions by themselves. In the end, that’s what will likely save some of our a*ses.

I shudder th o think what would happen if we had a dumbf*ck in power with the kind of centralized system you imply.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #265 on: March 22, 2020, 09:27:03 AM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.

"A few misteps"  LOL.

They arrested doctors warning about this new virus:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/02/04/chinese-doctor-has-coronavirus/

"Wuhan police released Li on Jan. 3 after he signed a document saying that he committed “illegal acts.” The doctor, who did not immediately respond to The Washington Post on Tuesday, later explained to CNN that his family would “worry sick” about him “if I lose my freedom for a few days.” "


So if Trump finally gets on board and does stuff, we are going to sing praises on here about his eventual response, right guys?

Look, I do think Trump is totally messing this up and I wish we had anyone else in power, even Dan Quayle would probably be better, but China DOES NOT get a pass on this from me.

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #266 on: March 22, 2020, 05:34:13 PM »
I actually think China has done an amazing job. This random disease pops up in China, they manage to identify that it's something new and then go on to GO AGAINST THEIR CULTURAL NORMS to let the rest of the world not only KNOW but SHARE ALL THEIR RESEARCH. Then they follow that up by managing their own outbreak in spectacularly successful fashion. China looked at this and (ok there were a few missteps) thought this is big, this is so far outside political considerations that we need to co-operate fully with other human beings as a species. In return they're got racism, blame and a lot of the western world pissing about being political before pretending to take it seriously. The Chinese people must be looking at the west and wondering why on earth people want to live in this kind of society.

"A few misteps"  LOL.

They arrested doctors warning about this new virus:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/02/04/chinese-doctor-has-coronavirus/

"Wuhan police released Li on Jan. 3 after he signed a document saying that he committed “illegal acts.” The doctor, who did not immediately respond to The Washington Post on Tuesday, later explained to CNN that his family would “worry sick” about him “if I lose my freedom for a few days.” "


So if Trump finally gets on board and does stuff, we are going to sing praises on here about his eventual response, right guys?

Look, I do think Trump is totally messing this up and I wish we had anyone else in power, even Dan Quayle would probably be better, but China DOES NOT get a pass on this from me.

China reacted in line with it's cultural norms, but rapidly realised that this is a human issue and not a Chinese one. Then went against their own norms to let everyone know. I think that's worth a huge amount. They let us know in time for us to act. And then they demonstrated how to act. I think we have a huge amount to thank China for. Like lives, many, many lives.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #267 on: March 22, 2020, 05:42:55 PM »
China reacted in line with it's cultural norms, but rapidly realised that this is a human issue and not a Chinese one. Then went against their own norms to let everyone know. I think that's worth a huge amount. They let us know in time for us to act. And then they demonstrated how to act. I think we have a huge amount to thank China for. Like lives, many, many lives.

Difference of opinion I guess.   I see it as little different from Trump initially denying the virus and then going against his own norms and finally signing some emergency bills and such.  I don't give Trump a pass for his initial actions and I don't give China a pass either.  It is great that they finally decided to act and also great that they have a society that is very used to the government limiting freedoms with a heavy hand such that people would not ignore decrees as they are doing here in the USA and did in Italy and France.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #268 on: March 22, 2020, 06:00:18 PM »
China reacted in line with it's cultural norms, but rapidly realised that this is a human issue and not a Chinese one. Then went against their own norms to let everyone know. I think that's worth a huge amount. They let us know in time for us to act. And then they demonstrated how to act. I think we have a huge amount to thank China for. Like lives, many, many lives.

Difference of opinion I guess.   I see it as little different from Trump initially denying the virus and then going against his own norms and finally signing some emergency bills and such.  I don't give Trump a pass for his initial actions and I don't give China a pass either.  It is great that they finally decided to act and also great that they have a society that is very used to the government limiting freedoms with a heavy hand such that people would not ignore decrees as they are doing here in the USA and did in Italy and France.

I think my point is that China very quickly overruled centuries of keeping things very insular, for the sake of the rest of the world. They learned from SARs and other contagions and they acted. I'm not going to comment on Trump, except to say that he wouldn't have even had the opportunity to handle this if China had not done something incredibly brave and show it's vulnerability to it's political enemies. And it did that for everyone else's good, not it's own.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #269 on: March 22, 2020, 06:05:03 PM »
I think my point is that China very quickly overruled centuries of keeping things very insular, for the sake of the rest of the world. They learned from SARs and other contagions and they acted. I'm not going to comment on Trump, except to say that he wouldn't have even had the opportunity to handle this if China had not done something incredibly brave and show it's vulnerability to it's political enemies. And it did that for everyone else's good, not it's own.

See, I think China did what it did because they realized they have (1 billion?) people and they better get this under control asap or they will collapse their production oriented economy.  I also think they realized they could not hide a lockdown of 10 million people from the world.

Again, difference of opinion.  China will always be the country that killed my two cats by putting melamine in their food to fool the protein sensors, so I may be biased.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #270 on: March 22, 2020, 06:10:40 PM »
I think my point is that China very quickly overruled centuries of keeping things very insular, for the sake of the rest of the world. They learned from SARs and other contagions and they acted. I'm not going to comment on Trump, except to say that he wouldn't have even had the opportunity to handle this if China had not done something incredibly brave and show it's vulnerability to it's political enemies. And it did that for everyone else's good, not it's own.

See, I think China did what it did because they realized they have (1 billion?) people and they better get this under control asap or they will collapse their production oriented economy.  I also think they realized they could not hide a lockdown of 10 million people from the world.

Again, difference of opinion.  China will always be the country that killed my two cats by putting melamine in their food to fool the protein sensors, so I may be biased.

I did a research project on the melamine situation. In China, milk was collected locally. In other countries, it's collected centrally. It was the local business men that added melamine to up their profit margin. It wasn't the Chinese government by any stretch of the imagination. And don't forget that melamine killed more Chinese babies than others. That whole situation was a nightmare for NZ, because we obviously supply a lot of milk products to China. They're one of our top 3 trading partners.

Sorry your cats died. Poor wee mites. I would hate someone that poisoned mine also.

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #271 on: March 22, 2020, 09:51:27 PM »
Oh PUH-LEASE!

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Several months before the coronavirus pandemic began, the Trump administration eliminated a key American public health position in Beijing intended to help detect disease outbreaks in China, Reuters has learned."

WHY???

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-u-s-axed-cdc-expert-job-in-china-months-before-virus-outbreak-idUSKBN21910S

Leisured

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #272 on: March 22, 2020, 11:22:31 PM »
By way of contrast, I attach a link to a recent address to Germany by Chancellor Angela Merkel. No finger pointing, no point scoring. A good explanation of the term 'flattening the curve', and a good point in that keeping distance is an expression of care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLxrxyk_wYo


AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #273 on: March 23, 2020, 01:44:53 AM »
I have a bad feeling about the outcome of the blame game at this point in proceedings. If you think things are bad now, they could be so very much worse.

rantk81

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #274 on: March 23, 2020, 06:10:09 AM »

I am completely floored that ANYONE is still defending Trump, after the childish way he acts in a moment of GLOBAL CRISIS.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #275 on: March 23, 2020, 06:54:24 AM »
My fear is that Teflon Don actually gets re-elected over this because:
a)  by continuing to call it the Chinese virus he gets to blame another country, and reinforce his emphasis on protecting our borders;
b)  he will get voters to believe that they should not change leadership in the middle of an unprecedented health and financial pandemic.

Hence, pandemic = DT re-elected.

sui generis

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #276 on: March 23, 2020, 07:32:10 AM »
Also, Republicans pretty uniformly believe he's doing a great job. In fact, a poll last week showed that 55% of Americans think he's doing a great job. So yeah, he may get reelected over this.

lexde

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #277 on: March 23, 2020, 08:26:49 AM »
My fear is that Teflon Don actually gets re-elected over this because:
a)  by continuing to call it the Chinese virus he gets to blame another country, and reinforce his emphasis on protecting our borders;
b)  he will get voters to believe that they should not change leadership in the middle of an unprecedented health and financial pandemic.

Hence, pandemic = DT re-elected.

I'm not so sure. 90% of the responses I get when I talk politics is "but how is your 401(k) doing?" - and now that that's shot (Dow is at what, 18,825 right now?) I don't know that a lot of his supporters will continue to vote for him. That said, his competition has to start speaking up with actual solutions to these immediate problems, otherwise the bolstering may (barely) out-bid the silence.

sui generis

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #278 on: March 23, 2020, 08:47:30 AM »
One thing i remember from the late 2000s was that everyone talked about how bad a job Bush did on Katrina.  Like, had Katrina been in 2004 rather than 2005, he might not have been reelected.  I guess I wasn't paying very close attention to politics at the time because I don't remember people saying he was handling it so badly *during* the immediate aftermath/crisis.  Only years later.  For those that were there/paying attention at the time, how does the contemporaneous reaction to Bush compare to the currently in-process reaction to Trump?

I feel like the one thing i remember from Katrina was that Bush said something about how great it was going and how Brown, the FEMA Director (?) was doing a great job.  And people are still pissed about that to this day.  But like, Trump says he's doing a perfect job like every time he opens his mouth, so...?  I guess it's better to say it constantly than to say it just once if it's untrue?

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #279 on: March 23, 2020, 08:58:06 AM »
My fear is that Teflon Don actually gets re-elected over this because:
a)  by continuing to call it the Chinese virus he gets to blame another country, and reinforce his emphasis on protecting our borders;
b)  he will get voters to believe that they should not change leadership in the middle of an unprecedented health and financial pandemic.

Hence, pandemic = DT re-elected.


I'm not so sure. 90% of the responses I get when I talk politics is "but how is your 401(k) doing?" - and now that that's shot (Dow is at what, 18,825 right now?) I don't know that a lot of his supporters will continue to vote for him. That said, his competition has to start speaking up with actual solutions to these immediate problems, otherwise the bolstering may (barely) out-bid the silence.


Meh. His new talking point is "The cure is worse than the sickness" -- meaning that the economic effects of isolating will be worse than the coronavirus itself. I'm already seeing his supporters parroting that. So this is their new way to absolve Trump of responsibility.

lexde

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #280 on: March 23, 2020, 08:58:50 AM »
My fear is that Teflon Don actually gets re-elected over this because:
a)  by continuing to call it the Chinese virus he gets to blame another country, and reinforce his emphasis on protecting our borders;
b)  he will get voters to believe that they should not change leadership in the middle of an unprecedented health and financial pandemic.

Hence, pandemic = DT re-elected.


I'm not so sure. 90% of the responses I get when I talk politics is "but how is your 401(k) doing?" - and now that that's shot (Dow is at what, 18,825 right now?) I don't know that a lot of his supporters will continue to vote for him. That said, his competition has to start speaking up with actual solutions to these immediate problems, otherwise the bolstering may (barely) out-bid the silence.


Meh. His new talking point is "The cure is worse than the sickness" -- meaning that the economic effects of isolating will be worse than the coronavirus itself. I'm already seeing his supporters parroting that. So this is their new way to absolve Trump of responsibility.
JFC. The idiocy knows no bounds.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #281 on: March 23, 2020, 09:48:35 AM »

Trump supporters are going to be even less likely to trust the media, because the media industry abandoned any illusion of objectivity in 2016.


Lol

Or...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/17/trump-learns-pitfalls-his-pinocchio-presidency/

"An alarming new poll from NPR, PBS NewsHour and Marist shows that the number of Republicans who believe the virus is a real threat has actually fallen over the past month, from 72 percent in February to just 40 percent now. A majority of Republicans now say the threat has been blown out of proportion — more than double the 23 percent who said so last month."

dandarc

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #282 on: March 23, 2020, 10:12:06 AM »
@Kris

Seems it takes a month or so for Donald "I didn't know the flu kills people" Trump's base to internalize his message.

the_gastropod

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #283 on: March 23, 2020, 10:12:38 AM »
Colbert used to joke that reality had a known liberal bias... I think that's increasingly true, sadly. What's the end game when a significant chunk of the US population is prone to believing wild conspiracy theories and rejecting reality?

bacchi

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #284 on: March 23, 2020, 10:35:40 AM »
Colbert used to joke that reality had a known liberal bias... I think that's increasingly true, sadly. What's the end game when a significant chunk of the US population is prone to believing wild conspiracy theories and rejecting reality?

MAGA rallies that become a disease cluster?

Telecaster

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #285 on: March 23, 2020, 10:45:51 AM »
By repeating the mantra "the media are biased!" the right wing have given themselves permission to reject any facts that might conflict with their world view.  Trump has his surrogates spent months repeating obvious lies like "pretty soon we'll be at zero cases."  and "it goes away in spring like a miracle," "we'll have a vaccine very soon," and "everybody who wants a test can be tested" etc.

Since Trump is a fountain of good news, he must be doing a great job right?  Anyone who says otherwise is biased. 

meghan88

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #286 on: March 23, 2020, 11:00:20 AM »
Look at the stats for "those not concerned at all":  https://twitter.com/jdcivicscience/status/1241464305129791489/photo/1

So ... rallies, pro wrestling, monster truck shows, nascar, evangelical gatherings ... all should be A-OK

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #287 on: March 23, 2020, 11:55:23 AM »
This is weird reasoning.  South Korea's doing massively better than the US.  Is your argument that there are no checks and balances there?  Or in the Netherlands?  That doesn't follow at all.
There are not none, but there are many less so, yes.

The US, as I said, has 16,000 different law enforcement agencies. RoK, etc do not. The USA has 50 states, and countless municipal governments with wide powers. RoK does not. The US has two houses of congress, and each of its 50 states have, as well, as well as separately-elected governors. RoK does not.

And so on and so forth.

The US is a clusterfuck of competing and overlapping agencies and organisations and departments and lobby groups and political action committees with checks and balances and regulations and procedures and people having quiet meetings off the books to get what they want done and so on and so forth. This is why you never get anything done. Now, this means your government can never do anything really awful, but it also means it can never do anything really useful.

There are two ways to interpret the overlapping sovereignties:
1. Lack of clear direction.
2. Multiplicity of opinions can battle it out in the open with none of them suppressed.

The idea of America is founded in the second interpretation. I dare say it has been quite successful.


Even though we have a dumbf*ck in power, individual states are taking competent actions by themselves. In the end, that’s what will likely save some of our a*ses.

I shudder th o think what would happen if we had a dumbf*ck in power with the kind of centralized system you imply.


"A constitution is not intended to embody a particular economic theory, whether of paternalism and the organic relation of the citizen to the State or of laissez faire. It is made for people of fundamentally different views." Justice Holmes Lochner dissent 1905
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 12:02:35 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

rocketpj

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #288 on: March 23, 2020, 12:04:39 PM »
I think our respective electorates will look very different 3 months from now.

What percentage of Trump supporters (or their parents/loved ones) dying of this disease will move the needle?  Because that is looking like the metric that will undo him.

You can bullshit all you want, but if one in 8 people over 60 die in a town people will notice.  At the very least, his base skews hard to the old, white demographic.  There will be fewer of them in a couple of months.

I don't wish death on anyone, but it seems like some of these folks are choosing death over reconsidering their biases.  Unfortunately, they will kill a lot of the rest of us as well.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #289 on: March 23, 2020, 12:08:18 PM »
Colbert used to joke that reality had a known liberal bias... I think that's increasingly true, sadly. What's the end game when a significant chunk of the US population is prone to believing wild conspiracy theories and rejecting reality?

They slant older, and Trump has told them not to be concerned about this virus.  Maybe they'll die in great enough numbers to fix the disbelief in reality thing that they've started.

wenchsenior

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #290 on: March 23, 2020, 12:15:36 PM »
Colbert used to joke that reality had a known liberal bias... I think that's increasingly true, sadly. What's the end game when a significant chunk of the US population is prone to believing wild conspiracy theories and rejecting reality?

They slant older, and Trump has told them not to be concerned about this virus.  Maybe they'll die in great enough numbers to fix the disbelief in reality thing that they've started.

Natural selection at work.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #291 on: March 23, 2020, 01:04:22 PM »
https://twitter.com/RonPaul/status/1239551403074433025

Ron Paul tweeted out six days ago that the coronavirus is a hoax.  His son has tested positive.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #292 on: March 23, 2020, 01:13:08 PM »
https://twitter.com/RonPaul/status/1239551403074433025

Ron Paul tweeted out six days ago that the coronavirus is a hoax.  His son has tested positive.

Pretty hard situation.  Tough to keep on telling everyone the truth when the deep state even turns your children against you.

partgypsy

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #293 on: March 23, 2020, 01:24:21 PM »
Based on my very limited exposure to people in the last couple of weeks, those who supported Trump before will continue to support him, and those who outright hated him before still do. I don't know anyone who has ever been "on the fence" about him.

As for why some people, largely Trump supporters, appear to not be taking the pandemic seriously, I think Paula Pant outlined the reason pretty accurately on her podcast last week. She described the current situation as the media's "boy who cried wolf" moment. For years, the media has fed fear because it led to better ratings. Now that there is actually something that people need to fear, certain people aren't believing the hype from the media.

Trump supporters are going to be even less likely to trust the media, because the media industry abandoned any illusion of objectivity in 2016.

Just based on the economic impact alone, I would agree that this is probably going to be the end of Trump, and I'm perfectly okay with that. I don't think Joe Biden will be a bad choice for president. My favorite candidate from the beginning was Yang, and I was surprised that he didn't get any traction - his universal income idea would be pretty popular right now.

YEah. I think 5-6 months from now people may wish they had a "do-over" who they voted for in the primaries. Basically more socialist policies like universal income and universal healthcare will be seen in a more favorable light.

turketron

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #294 on: March 23, 2020, 01:37:08 PM »
https://twitter.com/RonPaul/status/1239551403074433025

Ron Paul tweeted out six days ago that the coronavirus is a hoax.  His son has tested positive.

https://time.com/5808407/sen-rand-paul-senate-capitol-coronavirus/

On top of that he remained at work for 6 days after taking the test while waiting for the results. Like half of the senate is 65+ so I'm sure this'll end well.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #295 on: March 23, 2020, 01:43:56 PM »


The US is a clusterfuck of competing and overlapping agencies and organisations and departments and lobby groups and political action committees with checks and balances and regulations and procedures and people having quiet meetings off the books to get what they want done and so on and so forth. This is why you never get anything done.   Now, this means your government can never do anything really awful,but it also means it can never do anything really useful.

The Framers endeavored  to design a country of enduring, maximum liberty.

The Framers'  dread of  a concentration of power is the overarching reason they formed  a tripartite, check-and-balances  national government.

 
And  in keeping with their commitment to dispersion of power they granted  each State its own sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment's principle of federalism.

The result is an America   comprised of 51 sovereign powers, the federal government plus the 50 States.

While speaking  at a law school in Hawaii Justice Scalia  said  "it's game over" if a concentration of power ever obtains.

During a rare appearance on a morning TV show Justice Gorsuch also emphasized the essentiality  of limited power, and that the meaning of the Constitution's fundamental law, and its other provisions, is found in the definition  of the words  the Framers used at the time they drafted the Constitution.

This interpretative approach preserves  fundamental liberties.



Here is Justice Black's  inimitable reverence for  "Our Federalism."

Younger v. Harris (1971)
This underlying reason for restraining courts of equity from interfering with criminal prosecutions is reinforced by an even more vital consideration, the notion of "comity," that is, a proper respect for state functions, a recognition of the fact that the entire country is made up of a Union of separate state governments, and a continuance of the belief that the National Government will fare best if the States and their institutions are left free to perform their separate functions in their separate ways.


This, perhaps for lack of a better and clearer way to describe it, is referred to by many as "Our Federalism," and one familiar with the profound debates that ushered our Federal Constitution into existence is bound to respect those who remain loyal to the ideals and dreams of "Our Federalism."

The concept does not mean blind deference to "States' Rights" any more than it means centralization of control over every important issue in our National Government and its courts.

The Framers rejected both these courses.

What the concept does represent is a system in which there is sensitivity to the legitimate interests of both State and National Governments, and in which the National Government, anxious though it may be to vindicate and protect federal rights and federal interests, always endeavors to do so in ways that will not unduly interfere with the legitimate activities of the States.

It should never be forgotten that this slogan, "Our Federalism," born in the early struggling days of our Union of States, occupies a highly important place in our Nation's history and its future.



ender

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #296 on: March 23, 2020, 05:27:34 PM »
My fear is that Teflon Don actually gets re-elected over this because:
a)  by continuing to call it the Chinese virus he gets to blame another country, and reinforce his emphasis on protecting our borders;
b)  he will get voters to believe that they should not change leadership in the middle of an unprecedented health and financial pandemic.

Hence, pandemic = DT re-elected.

I'm not so sure. 90% of the responses I get when I talk politics is "but how is your 401(k) doing?" - and now that that's shot (Dow is at what, 18,825 right now?) I don't know that a lot of his supporters will continue to vote for him. That said, his competition has to start speaking up with actual solutions to these immediate problems, otherwise the bolstering may (barely) out-bid the silence.

The flip side is if this takes 3 months to resolve and does so in a way that hasn't done long term economic damage, it's possible the market rockets up right before the election, which of course Trump will take credit for and perhaps have the opposite effect.


EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #297 on: March 23, 2020, 11:52:01 PM »
My fear is that Teflon Don actually gets re-elected over this because:
a)  by continuing to call it the Chinese virus he gets to blame another country, and reinforce his emphasis on protecting our borders;
b)  he will get voters to believe that they should not change leadership in the middle of an unprecedented health and financial pandemic.

Hence, pandemic = DT re-elected.

I'm not so sure. 90% of the responses I get when I talk politics is "but how is your 401(k) doing?" - and now that that's shot (Dow is at what, 18,825 right now?) I don't know that a lot of his supporters will continue to vote for him. That said, his competition has to start speaking up with actual solutions to these immediate problems, otherwise the bolstering may (barely) out-bid the silence.

The flip side is if this takes 3 months to resolve and does so in a way that hasn't done long term economic damage, it's possible the market rockets up right before the election, which of course Trump will take credit for and perhaps have the opposite effect.

Well, if you are willing to bet on science and the fact that Trump is putting the economy (and his narcissism and ignorance) ahead of the essential steps required to stop the virus from spreading, then we are in for a further deteriorating market and situation for the foreseeable future, with a bunch of 'exciting' ups and downs along the way.  Still, it is possible that folks see Trump as a wartime President and choose the 'reassuring reality TV persona' over the unknown.  Americans, more than anyone, prefer the promise of a quick fix (chloroquine tablets, conspiracy theories, blaming fake news and foreigners) vs. facing reality (putting in time and personal sacrifice).  Being 'free' is a double edged sword.  This election just might boil down to choosing between a 'deep fried chicken sandwich' (so tasty and tempting, but will kill you in the medium term) vs. 'veggies and salad' (boring, but better in the long run) for President.

talltexan

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #298 on: March 24, 2020, 06:57:27 AM »
The thing is that Biden is not a perfect candidate. He has tried for the office before, with there often being better candidates running then. He didn't challenge Clinton in 2016, for whatever reason. It doesn't mean it wouldn't be an improvement from our current President, but your salad analogy breaks down a little there.

And--when life returns to anything like normalcy--there's also the 40% of the country who simply believe it's a recession whenever the person in the White House has a D after his name.

ctuser1

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Re: Coronavirus is the End of Trump
« Reply #299 on: March 24, 2020, 06:59:13 AM »
there's also the 40% of the country who simply believe it's a recession whenever the person in the White House has a D after his name.

How much do they contribute economically? To the GDP?