Continuing outrages related to our 45th President

[bacchi]

Well, he's definitely a self deluded fool in a lot of ways, he's just good at conning other morons. His entire life has been nothing but grifting.

True. I wonder if almost the entire left-of-center narrative about him is wrong, though.

For example, one of the theories about why he kept the classified documents was because he wanted to show it around to his sycophants, "See how powerful I was!" He's a narcissist -- it makes sense.

What if, instead, he knew he could use it to curry favor with foreign governments? Think of a future Trump Hotel Riyadh or Trump Hotel Moscow, especially if he gets foreign assistance to build. He's not really a bumbling idiot easily swayed by a fawner but a calculating conman through-and-through. His rants are acts.

Of course, sometimes you become the character if you stay in character too long. And KISS points to him being a narcissist that's had his way since his dad gave him a million dollars at age 12.

Who among us--if provided with a small $1 million loan at a young age--wouldn't be able to build a global real estate empire worth $billions?

$1MM?  or $413MM?  Because Trump certainly had far more than a $1MM loan (the NYT reported that he received the equivalent of $413MM from his father, and not as a loan).

The $1M was early on. I recall age 12 but other sources are telling me 22. Either way, with inflation, it's at least $8.5M today.

The $413M might've been the inheritance?

Apparently it was his inheritance but it was run through All County Building Supply & Maintenance to avoid taxes.

[talltexan]

Note: the $1 million loan that Trump acknowledged was in nominal dollars. the $413 million that the NY Times reported was inflation adjusted to 2018. So they're not directly comparable.

[sixwings]

Well, he's definitely a self deluded fool in a lot of ways, he's just good at conning other morons. His entire life has been nothing but grifting.

True. I wonder if almost the entire left-of-center narrative about him is wrong, though.

For example, one of the theories about why he kept the classified documents was because he wanted to show it around to his sycophants, "See how powerful I was!" He's a narcissist -- it makes sense.

What if, instead, he knew he could use it to curry favor with foreign governments? Think of a future Trump Hotel Riyadh or Trump Hotel Moscow, especially if he gets foreign assistance to build. He's not really a bumbling idiot easily swayed by a fawner but a calculating conman through-and-through. His rants are acts.

Of course, sometimes you become the character if you stay in character too long. And KISS points to him being a narcissist that's had his way since his dad gave him a million dollars at age 12.

Who among us--if provided with a small $1 million loan at a young age--wouldn't be able to build a global real estate empire that we feel is worth $billions?

I fixed that based on trumps own admitted valuation methodology. There's very little evidence that he is actually worth billions and he's always neglected to disclose anything that would prove he is.

[GuitarStv]

It's also important to note that the initial start up money Trump was given was only part of the equation.

The fact that his father was using his connections for all of Trump's life to keep him out of trouble, get him passing grades in school, and help any business venture that the former president was involved in was a pretty significant boost.  Probably quite a bit more important than the initial cash.

[talltexan]

Well, he's definitely a self deluded fool in a lot of ways, he's just good at conning other morons. His entire life has been nothing but grifting.

True. I wonder if almost the entire left-of-center narrative about him is wrong, though.

For example, one of the theories about why he kept the classified documents was because he wanted to show it around to his sycophants, "See how powerful I was!" He's a narcissist -- it makes sense.

What if, instead, he knew he could use it to curry favor with foreign governments? Think of a future Trump Hotel Riyadh or Trump Hotel Moscow, especially if he gets foreign assistance to build. He's not really a bumbling idiot easily swayed by a fawner but a calculating conman through-and-through. His rants are acts.

Of course, sometimes you become the character if you stay in character too long. And KISS points to him being a narcissist that's had his way since his dad gave him a million dollars at age 12.

Who among us--if provided with a small $1 million loan at a young age--wouldn't be able to build a global real estate empire that we feel is worth $billions?

I fixed that based on trumps own admitted valuation methodology. There's very little evidence that he is actually worth billions and he's always neglected to disclose anything that would prove he is.

Do you think something in the Forbes methodology is flawed? Even if they overestimated his wealth by double, their estimate was still in excess of $2 billion.

[Captain FIRE]

Who among us--if provided with a small $1 million loan at a young age--wouldn't be able to build a global real estate empire that we feel is worth $billions?

I fixed that based on trumps own admitted valuation methodology. There's very little evidence that he is actually worth billions and he's always neglected to disclose anything that would prove he is.

Do you think something in the Forbes methodology is flawed? Even if they overestimated his wealth by double, their estimate was still in excess of $2 billion.

So over 50+ years he quadrupled the amount he was given ($413m)?

I think many of us here - without connections, anyone smoothing our way, supporting on business ventures - have more than quadrupled our wealth.  Even throwing $413 million into VTI for 21 years (much less 50) nets you $2.2 billion, and at those levels of wealth, you can do far more than put it in VTI.

[GuitarStv]

Who among us--if provided with a small $1 million loan at a young age--wouldn't be able to build a global real estate empire that we feel is worth $billions?

I fixed that based on trumps own admitted valuation methodology. There's very little evidence that he is actually worth billions and he's always neglected to disclose anything that would prove he is.

Do you think something in the Forbes methodology is flawed? Even if they overestimated his wealth by double, their estimate was still in excess of $2 billion.

So over 50+ years he quadrupled the amount he was given ($413m)?

I think many of us here - without connections, anyone smoothing our way, supporting on business ventures - have more than quadrupled our wealth.  Even throwing $413 million into VTI for 21 years (much less 50) nets you $2.2 billion, and at those levels of wealth, you can do far more than put it in VTI.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2021/10/11/its-official-trump-would-be-richer-if-he-had-just-invested-his-inheritance-into-the-sp500/?sh=cad631a1c486

[sixwings]

Well, he's definitely a self deluded fool in a lot of ways, he's just good at conning other morons. His entire life has been nothing but grifting.

True. I wonder if almost the entire left-of-center narrative about him is wrong, though.

For example, one of the theories about why he kept the classified documents was because he wanted to show it around to his sycophants, "See how powerful I was!" He's a narcissist -- it makes sense.

What if, instead, he knew he could use it to curry favor with foreign governments? Think of a future Trump Hotel Riyadh or Trump Hotel Moscow, especially if he gets foreign assistance to build. He's not really a bumbling idiot easily swayed by a fawner but a calculating conman through-and-through. His rants are acts.

Of course, sometimes you become the character if you stay in character too long. And KISS points to him being a narcissist that's had his way since his dad gave him a million dollars at age 12.

Who among us--if provided with a small $1 million loan at a young age--wouldn't be able to build a global real estate empire that we feel is worth $billions?

I fixed that based on trumps own admitted valuation methodology. There's very little evidence that he is actually worth billions and he's always neglected to disclose anything that would prove he is.

Do you think something in the Forbes methodology is flawed? Even if they overestimated his wealth by double, their estimate was still in excess of $2 billion.

What's the forbes methodology? If it involves getting info from Trump, then ya it's flawed, he lies about literally everything. It's also worth noting what he did with the money. He got 400M and dumped it into real estate in NYC in the 80s. So yeah, if I had got 400M in the 80s and bought NYC real estate I'd also be rich. Most of his other ventures failed. He got lucky with the NYC real estate market and ended up creating his brand around that and use reality TV to hype up that brand.

[nereo]

Well, he's definitely a self deluded fool in a lot of ways, he's just good at conning other morons. His entire life has been nothing but grifting.

True. I wonder if almost the entire left-of-center narrative about him is wrong, though.

For example, one of the theories about why he kept the classified documents was because he wanted to show it around to his sycophants, "See how powerful I was!" He's a narcissist -- it makes sense.

What if, instead, he knew he could use it to curry favor with foreign governments? Think of a future Trump Hotel Riyadh or Trump Hotel Moscow, especially if he gets foreign assistance to build. He's not really a bumbling idiot easily swayed by a fawner but a calculating conman through-and-through. His rants are acts.

Of course, sometimes you become the character if you stay in character too long. And KISS points to him being a narcissist that's had his way since his dad gave him a million dollars at age 12.

Who among us--if provided with a small $1 million loan at a young age--wouldn't be able to build a global real estate empire that we feel is worth $billions?

I fixed that based on trumps own admitted valuation methodology. There's very little evidence that he is actually worth billions and he's always neglected to disclose anything that would prove he is.

Do you think something in the Forbes methodology is flawed? Even if they overestimated his wealth by double, their estimate was still in excess of $2 billion.

What's the forbes methodology? If it involves getting info from Trump, then ya it's flawed, he lies about literally everything. It's also worth noting what he did with the money. He got 400M and dumped it into real estate in NYC in the 80s. So yeah, if I had got 400M in the 80s and bought NYC real estate I'd also be rich. Most of his other ventures failed. He got lucky with the NYC real estate market and ended up creating his brand around that and use reality TV to hype up that brand.

IIRC Forbes even described how difficult and uncertain they were with estimating Trump's wealth, as his finances were so opaque, and the information provided them deliberately inflated.

[bacchi]

IIRC Forbes even described how difficult and uncertain they were with estimating Trump's wealth, as his finances were so opaque, and the information provided them deliberately inflated.

You don't trust John Barron's estimate of Trump's wealth?

[nereo]

IIRC Forbes even described how difficult and uncertain they were with estimating Trump's wealth, as his finances were so opaque, and the information provided them deliberately inflated.

You don't trust John Barron's estimate of Trump's wealth?

Nope.  more to the point, though - estimating someone's wealth who's business is as multifaceted and sprawling as Trump's is hard enough when you have complete access to the books.  When you don't, well then it's just an educated guess with a huge degree of uncertainty.  It's interesting to note that even Trump's bookkeepers seem to have incorrect information (often deliberately = see Weissmann's plea deal).

[Davnasty]

And all this discussion of his business acumen is before you take into account that one of his best known "tactics" was not paying the people he hired and dragging civil suits out to the point where it wasn't worth suing him for the money.

[nereo]

And all this discussion of his business acumen is before you take into account that one of his best known "tactics" was not paying the people he hired and dragging civil suits out to the point where it wasn't worth suing him for the money.

Speaking of which, according to this article, Trump has stopped paying RightForge and currently owes them over $1MM.  RightForge is a conservative social media company which is providing the back-end service for Trump's 'Truth Social' media platform (basically his version of Twitter).

In its latest SEC filing, Truth Social has lost $6.5MM in the first quarter of this year.

[brandon1827]

And all this discussion of his business acumen is before you take into account that one of his best known "tactics" was not paying the people he hired and dragging civil suits out to the point where it wasn't worth suing him for the money.

Exactly! Every time someone starts talking about how shrewd a business man he is, I always go back to this. The start from his father, generally being a terrible human being much less a business man who never pays his debts, multiple bankruptcies, hiding his taxes for decades...I've never understood how the narrative that he was this mogul that people should admire or emulate became a thing

[Glenstache]

And all this discussion of his business acumen is before you take into account that one of his best known "tactics" was not paying the people he hired and dragging civil suits out to the point where it wasn't worth suing him for the money.

Exactly! Every time someone starts talking about how shrewd a business man he is, I always go back to this. The start from his father, generally being a terrible human being much less a business man who never pays his debts, multiple bankruptcies, hiding his taxes for decades...I've never understood how the narrative that he was this mogul that people should admire or emulate became a thing

Ghost writers in the 80s and time on The Apprentice  more recently. Apparently he was a train wreck for the TV show as he would go off script snd say the wrong contestant won/lost episodes, etc. What a doof.

[nereo]

And all this discussion of his business acumen is before you take into account that one of his best known "tactics" was not paying the people he hired and dragging civil suits out to the point where it wasn't worth suing him for the money.

Exactly! Every time someone starts talking about how shrewd a business man he is, I always go back to this. The start from his father, generally being a terrible human being much less a business man who never pays his debts, multiple bankruptcies, hiding his taxes for decades...I've never understood how the narrative that he was this mogul that people should admire or emulate became a thing

The show “The Apprentice “ primarily served to enshrine the image of Trump as a wildly successful mogul. Prior to that he was relentless in the NY tabloids to always be “in the news”.

Since his political rise I’ve been far more skeptical of television personalities who have a show where they are the “expert”. Often when you dig a little you discover they are pretty mediocre in their field but are tireless self promoters with financial backing. Like Trump.

[calimom]

And all this discussion of his business acumen is before you take into account that one of his best known "tactics" was not paying the people he hired and dragging civil suits out to the point where it wasn't worth suing him for the money.

Exactly! Every time someone starts talking about how shrewd a business man he is, I always go back to this. The start from his father, generally being a terrible human being much less a business man who never pays his debts, multiple bankruptcies, hiding his taxes for decades...I've never understood how the narrative that he was this mogul that people should admire or emulate became a thing

Ghost writers in the 80s and time on The Apprentice  more recently. Apparently he was a train wreck for the TV show as he would go off script snd say the wrong contestant won/lost episodes, etc. What a doof.

I have a tangential business contact who is still owed money for work she did for his wedding to Marla Maples. He responded to the invoice by telling her doing that event would be good for her company. Doof indeed.

[ATtiny85]

It's also important to note that the initial start up money Trump was given was only part of the equation.

The fact that his father was using his connections for all of Trump's life to keep him out of trouble, get him passing grades in school, and help any business venture that the former president was involved in was a pretty significant boost.  Probably quite a bit more important than the initial cash.

So, he is like a very large number of other kids of people with means.

[talltexan]

John F. Kennedy was born into a wealthy family. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of entitled behavior in his private life, but there's also the documented heroism he showed as a PT-boat captain.

[Just Joe]

I have a tangential business contact who is still owed money for work she did for his wedding to Marla Maples. He responded to the invoice by telling her doing that event would be good for her company. Doof indeed.

My parents have a neighbor whose son has a construction company in the northeast. Same situation. The bill is quite old at this point.

[RetiredAt63]

I have a tangential business contact who is still owed money for work she did for his wedding to Marla Maples. He responded to the invoice by telling her doing that event would be good for her company. Doof indeed.

My parents have a neighbor whose son has a construction company in the northeast. Same situation. The bill is quite old at this point.

If he were forced to pay all his outstanding bills, with interest, that would certainly be nice for his contractors, and bad for his finances.

Seriously, at this point, with his reputation for not paying, why would anyone without massive clout to ensure payment do business with him?

[nereo]

I have a tangential business contact who is still owed money for work she did for his wedding to Marla Maples. He responded to the invoice by telling her doing that event would be good for her company. Doof indeed.

My parents have a neighbor whose son has a construction company in the northeast. Same situation. The bill is quite old at this point.

If he were forced to pay all his outstanding bills, with interest, that would certainly be nice for his contractors, and bad for his finances.

Seriously, at this point, with his reputation for not paying, why would anyone without massive clout to ensure payment do business with him?

TBH - at this point I’d be wary of refusing to provide a service too, as the MAGA hoard seems fond of attacking businesses who oppose him, even passively

[partgypsy]

So, can this dude be thrown in prison for threatening the POTUS? (Trump calls Biden an "enemy of the state" https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3631381-the-memo-trump-amps-up-belligerent-rhetoric-as-threat-of-violence-rises/amp/

[talltexan]

I have a tangential business contact who is still owed money for work she did for his wedding to Marla Maples. He responded to the invoice by telling her doing that event would be good for her company. Doof indeed.

My parents have a neighbor whose son has a construction company in the northeast. Same situation. The bill is quite old at this point.

If he were forced to pay all his outstanding bills, with interest, that would certainly be nice for his contractors, and bad for his finances.

Seriously, at this point, with his reputation for not paying, why would anyone without massive clout to ensure payment do business with him?

TBH - at this point I’d be wary of refusing to provide a service too, as the MAGA hoard seems fond of attacking businesses who oppose him, even passively

The trick to declining business from Trump is to do it through flattery. Say something like, "I would love to take on this work, but I read The Art of the Deal a few years ago, and have resolved that I would never put myself on the opposite side of the table from the man who could write such an insightful set of negotiating strategies, because how could I expect to win?"

[jinga nation]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/new-york-sues-donald-trump-company-and-family-members-over-widespread-fraud-claims-seeks-at-least-250-million-in-penalties.html

I'm shocked, nay outraged, at such a small number. So Un-Trumpish with a low penalty. Millions, not Beelions.... is this amateur hour?

[FIPurpose]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/new-york-sues-donald-trump-company-and-family-members-over-widespread-fraud-claims-seeks-at-least-250-million-in-penalties.html

I'm shocked, nay outraged, at such a small number. So Un-Trumpish with a low penalty. Millions, not Beelions.... is this amateur hour?

I'm thinking that number doesn't include claw-backs or the number of civil suits that would become possible if he was found guilty of fraud.

That could easily grow to billions.

[former player]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/new-york-sues-donald-trump-company-and-family-members-over-widespread-fraud-claims-seeks-at-least-250-million-in-penalties.html

I'm shocked, nay outraged, at such a small number. So Un-Trumpish with a low penalty. Millions, not Beelions.... is this amateur hour?

I'm thinking that number doesn't include claw-backs or the number of civil suits that would become possible if he was found guilty of fraud.

That could easily grow to billions.

Maybe Letitia James has a better idea than most of us how much Trump is really worth.

[talltexan]

At this point, Trump's NW is irrelevant because he's built such a powerful political fundraising machine.

[brandon1827]

At this point, Trump's NW is irrelevant because he's built such a powerful political fundraising machine.

AKA Large-scale grifting operation

[sixwings]

Republicans are funding the fraud defense of a c-list celebrity "billionaire" new yorker instead of elections. What a time to be alive.

[talltexan]

They're funding the elections, too, don't worry.

[GuitarStv]

Republicans are funding the fraud defense of a c-list celebrity "billionaire" new yorker instead of elections. What a time to be alive.

That's what we like to call fiscal conservatism yo.

[sixwings]

They're funding the elections, too, don't worry.

Aren't republicans really struggling for cash? Trump is just a vaccuum sucking up donations and then not using it to help republicans. I read an article about that somewhere...

[bacchi]

They're funding the elections, too, don't worry.

Aren't republicans really struggling for cash? Trump is just a vaccuum sucking up donations and then not using it to help republicans. I read an article about that somewhere...

It probably doesn't help that Rick "I plead the 5th" Scott is in charge of the Republican Senate fund.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/08/19/gop-senate-rescue-midterms/

Republican Senate hopefuls are getting crushed on airwaves across the country while their national campaign fund is pulling ads and running low on cash — leading some campaign advisers to ask where all the money went and to demand an audit of the committee’s finances, according to Republican strategists involved in the discussions.

Rando twitter quote: "Maybe we shouldn’t have let the guy who ripped off millions of $$$ from Medicare run this thing."

[jinga nation]

At this point, Trump's NW is irrelevant because he's built such a powerful political fundraising machine.

AKA Large-scale grifting operation

FTFY. Special collection operation.

Rick Scott pwning the GOP and putting it into his and/or 45 slushie fund would be comical. Maybe it already is in process.

[bacchi]

TFG suggested to Hannity that the FBI might've been looking for Clinton's emails when they raided Mar-A-Lago. Yes, seriously.

Stick a fork in him. He's done.

[Glenstache]

TFG suggested to Hannity that the FBI might've been looking for Clinton's emails when they raided Mar-A-Lago. Yes, seriously.

Stick a fork in him. He's done.

But remember that the goal is not to present cogent arguments, but to say as much chaff as possible to make the public belive that they can't understand it and just go with what they want to belive and cherry pick to support that. A mention of Clinton emails isn't meant to fit a cogent worldview.

[bacchi]

TFG suggested to Hannity that the FBI might've been looking for Clinton's emails when they raided Mar-A-Lago. Yes, seriously.

Stick a fork in him. He's done.

But remember that the goal is not to present cogent arguments, but to say as much chaff as possible to make the public belive that they can't understand it and just go with what they want to belive and cherry pick to support that. A mention of Clinton emails isn't meant to fit a cogent worldview.

True enough. I'm surprised he didn't mention Benghazi.

[GuitarStv]

TFG suggested to Hannity that the FBI might've been looking for Clinton's emails when they raided Mar-A-Lago. Yes, seriously.

Stick a fork in him. He's done.

But remember that the goal is not to present cogent arguments, but to say as much chaff as possible to make the public belive that they can't understand it and just go with what they want to belive and cherry pick to support that. A mention of Clinton emails isn't meant to fit a cogent worldview.

True enough. I'm surprised he didn't mention Benghazi.

Or Obama's birth certificate.

[talltexan]

TFG suggested to Hannity that the FBI might've been looking for Clinton's emails when they raided Mar-A-Lago. Yes, seriously.

Stick a fork in him. He's done.

But remember that the goal is not to present cogent arguments, but to say as much chaff as possible to make the public belive that they can't understand it and just go with what they want to belive and cherry pick to support that. A mention of Clinton emails isn't meant to fit a cogent worldview.

This is pretty much 100% the goal. Winning in the court of public opinion just requires offering enough different bad arguments that each of us* can have something to justify continuing support of him.

*Obviously not all of us, but an electorally viable majority

[ATtiny85]

TFG suggested to Hannity that the FBI might've been looking for Clinton's emails when they raided Mar-A-Lago. Yes, seriously.

Stick a fork in him. He's done.

But remember that the goal is not to present cogent arguments, but to say as much chaff as possible to make the public belive that they can't understand it and just go with what they want to belive and cherry pick to support that. A mention of Clinton emails isn't meant to fit a cogent worldview.

This is pretty much 100% the goal. Winning in the court of public opinion just requires offering enough different bad arguments that each of us* can have something to justify continuing support of him.

*Obviously not all of us, but an electorally viable majority

That sums up thousands of pages of political strategy writing.

Voting is free...and what do we always say? If something is free, then you are the product.

[talltexan]

Like many of you, I found January 6--and Trump's increasingly apparent role in the planning and execution of it--appalling.

But I think this column is persuasive: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/10/january-6-hearings-ending-trump-subpoena.html

[bacchi]

Like many of you, I found January 6--and Trump's increasingly apparent role in the planning and execution of it--appalling.

But I think this column is persuasive: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/10/january-6-hearings-ending-trump-subpoena.html

Yep. It'll be a real shitshow in 2024. Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan -- any number of those states may ignore votes in order to get TFG into office. As the article hinted, a second term for TFG isn't even the main goal. If the coup architects get their way, he'll end up getting sidelined at best.

[talltexan]

Can you go into more about what you mean with "...getting sidelined..."?

[bacchi]

Can you go into more about what you mean with "...getting sidelined..."?

Smarter people than TFG will manipulate him to achieve their own goals of power. File it under "revolutions devour their own children" as his success devolves into a weakening of the rule of law and factionalism.

[Fru-Gal]

Question is, are these “smarter people” US citizens? Not seeing any evidence they are.

[talltexan]

I think Trump has little interest in the policy aims of his Presidency, apart from converting DoJ into his own personal police force and exercising the powers of the office to maintain himself in it. But there are many competing interests who always seek to sway a President to their POV on issues. Look at how successfully the Supreme Court was flipped, after all.

[bacchi]

I think Trump has little interest in the policy aims of his Presidency, apart from converting DoJ into his own personal police force and exercising the powers of the office to maintain himself in it. But there are many competing interests who always seek to sway a President to their POV on issues. Look at how successfully the Supreme Court was flipped, after all.

Yeah, of course, but if Lake and Marchant blatantly switch votes/electors to TFG, all bets are off for US democracy. Imagine if TFG can call up Marchant, ask for him to "find 33597 votes," and that exact number of votes appear a few days later. If Michigan elects Dixon, she can certify an alternate slate of electors or just refuse to recognize some votes from overwhelmingly Democratic Detroit.

When I suggest TFG will be sidelined, if things devolve, he'll find himself replaced by his own party when he's in office. He's too stubborn and too self-absorbed to spread the wealth and power around. Why worry about laws when they can be shaped to your will with crazyass fake conspiracies? He'll be outplayed by Bannon or DeSantis.

There's a political theory called Curvilinear Disparity. If the party leadership buys into the crazy of its most extreme members, things go off the rails for everyone.

[sixwings]

yeah I definitely agree, if something like that were to happen i doubt places like NY, the west coast, etc. would be fine with that. Dunno what they could do, but I doubt california and NY are totally fine with their democratic voting being eliminated by degenerates in Michigan or Arizona.

[sonofsven]

yeah I definitely agree, if something like that were to happen i doubt places like NY, the west coast, etc. would be fine with that. Dunno what they could do, but I doubt california and NY are totally fine with their democratic voting being eliminated by degenerates in Michigan or Arizona.

In 2000 the Supreme Court decided the Presidential election election, nothing was done about it.