Author Topic: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President  (Read 114809 times)

BoonDogle

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #200 on: January 07, 2022, 03:46:16 PM »


I've been wondering how I should classify myself as of late.

I've lost all patience with the majority of Republicans who've decided to abandon their support for democracy in favor of allegiance to an individual and a great big lie.
[/quote]

Me too, but I've fallen out of love with the Democrats. However, I'll never join the modern day GOP. Independent it is.

[/quote]

Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

PDXTabs

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #201 on: January 07, 2022, 04:44:29 PM »
Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

So very much room. There are a couple of things that I think the Libertarians get wrong. But maybe in Portland it is the perfect protest vote.

Kris

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #202 on: January 07, 2022, 04:54:13 PM »
Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

So very much room. There are a couple of things that I think the Libertarians get wrong. But maybe in Portland it is the perfect protest vote.

If you do join the libertarians, please follow Adam Bates, and get involved in trying to turn the party away from the horrifying racist and anti-semitic path that they seem to be on.

PDXTabs

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #203 on: January 07, 2022, 05:06:39 PM »
Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

So very much room. There are a couple of things that I think the Libertarians get wrong. But maybe in Portland it is the perfect protest vote.

If you do join the libertarians, please follow Adam Bates, and get involved in trying to turn the party away from the horrifying racist and anti-semitic path that they seem to be on.

I certainly can't vote for bigots, not even a protest vote. Why can't anyone be honest in their platform documents? But also, they don't list climate change in their platform, so the odds that they will get one of my votes is vanishingly small.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #204 on: January 10, 2022, 07:43:34 AM »
I was at work at my customer (DoD) facility yesterday. Noticed that CSPAN, CNN, and other news channel were live with the Biden speech (and Harris prior to him). Faux News wasn't; instead they were live with rebuttals in real time.
Fox "News" isn't news as they claim but "entertainment". That's the worst entertainment, ever, in the history of entertainment.

What could be more entertaining than having your preconceptions about the world ratified without a critical examination of the evidence?

Virtus3

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #205 on: January 10, 2022, 07:54:37 AM »
Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

I used to identify as a Libertarian in my early 20s. I think there's a lot of truth to the saying that Libertarians are like house cats...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #206 on: January 10, 2022, 08:25:19 AM »
For anyone who wants some insight into how Trump's administration started, read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk.  I am not finished it yet, and I have never cringed so much in my life reading one book. 

As a Canadian, it was also interesting (and weird) to see how many appointments a President makes.  When we have an election and a new party comes in (or just when we have a cabinet shuffle) the Ministers of Ministries change, but the Deputy Ministers are career civil servants and they generally do not change.  We basically don't know who they are because their job is to do the government job, not to make policy.  When they do become visible it is usually for something really unusual.  Prime example: "The head of Statistics Canada has delivered an extraordinary rebuke to the Harper government over its plan to scrap the mandatory long-form census, quitting his post in a highly public letter that bluntly undercuts Conservative efforts to sell the changes." https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/statistics-canada-chief-falls-on-sword-over-census/article1320915/

Mind you, Prime Ministers and their Ministers can do lots of changes - we saw that a lot in the Harper administration.  But it is done by legislation, not changes in the civil service.

So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.

Virtus3

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #207 on: January 10, 2022, 08:34:13 AM »
For anyone who wants some insight into how Trump's administration started, read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk.  I am not finished it yet, and I have never cringed so much in my life reading one book. 


So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.

Yes, that was an absolutely terrifying read for me. It's a really bad look when Rudy Giuliani appears to be the most sensible person in the room in the early days...

Absolutely agree on the second part as well.

ncornilsen

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #208 on: January 10, 2022, 08:42:59 AM »
For anyone who wants some insight into how Trump's administration started, read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk.  I am not finished it yet, and I have never cringed so much in my life reading one book. 


So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.

Yes, that was an absolutely terrifying read for me. It's a really bad look when Rudy Giuliani appears to be the most sensible person in the room in the early days...

Absolutely agree on the second part as well.

As a counter point, if you leave too many department leaders in place admin to admin, you effectively transfer more and more power to these people over time as they make deals, become entrenched, etc. While many of these career type bureaucrat don't make policy, the way they lead and manage their departments can have the effect of making policy... so it's not entirely like they're a robot following a script. If the president can't replace them, that transfers power to those bureaucrat. Same reason, as a conservative, that I'm against term limits for congress... even for inside trading lying grifters like Pelosi. Presumably her constituency is voting for her over and over again. 

former player

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #209 on: January 10, 2022, 08:43:09 AM »
So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.
[/quote]
Agreed.  In the UK about 80 members of Parliament get Ministerial jobs at various levels from gofer to Secretary of State and everyone else stays in their job and follows orders from the new Ministers.

I would have thought that a major reform within Biden's grasp as President would be to move most of the current political appointment jobs over to permanent civil service roles, including all but a very few Ambassador roles.   But he probably won't do it because there is too much political capital invested in the current system of "jobs for the boys".

As long as you have competent Ministers and civil servants who operate within prescribed standards there is no "transfer of power" from having permanent civil servants.  In fact, the lack of a four yearly major disruption to the system means that the policies of a new administration can be put in place more quickly than spending months getting people in place and then spending even longer getting those people up to speed with how things work and how it is possible to change them.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 08:45:59 AM by former player »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #210 on: January 10, 2022, 09:54:42 AM »
So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.
Agreed.  In the UK about 80 members of Parliament get Ministerial jobs at various levels from gofer to Secretary of State and everyone else stays in their job and follows orders from the new Ministers.

I would have thought that a major reform within Biden's grasp as President would be to move most of the current political appointment jobs over to permanent civil service roles, including all but a very few Ambassador roles.   But he probably won't do it because there is too much political capital invested in the current system of "jobs for the boys".

As long as you have competent Ministers and civil servants who operate within prescribed standards there is no "transfer of power" from having permanent civil servants.  In fact, the lack of a four yearly major disruption to the system means that the policies of a new administration can be put in place more quickly than spending months getting people in place and then spending even longer getting those people up to speed with how things work and how it is possible to change them.
[/quote]

Exactly.  Our system is modeled on yours, obviously, although the two have drifted over time.  The basic premise that makes this all work is that everyone is a "civil servant", i.e. they are there to do the job of making things happen, not to decide what should happen.  If a new government takes a radically different approach to things, the civil service will make those things happen.  Or high level people will resign, usually very vocally, like our former head of Statistics Canada.

Of course our PMs don't have the handicap of a legislative body that can be diametrically opposed to them.  They either have a majority, in which case they are fine until the next election, or they have a minority, which means they have to be a bit more conciliatory to keep at least one other party happy.  It amazes me that the US government works as well as it does, given the way it is set up.  Of course it must be a lot easier when the incoming President is cooperative with the outgoing President.   ;-/

Travis

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #211 on: January 10, 2022, 04:20:52 PM »
For anyone who wants some insight into how Trump's administration started, read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk.  I am not finished it yet, and I have never cringed so much in my life reading one book. 


So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.

Yes, that was an absolutely terrifying read for me. It's a really bad look when Rudy Giuliani appears to be the most sensible person in the room in the early days...

Absolutely agree on the second part as well.

As a counter point, if you leave too many department leaders in place admin to admin, you effectively transfer more and more power to these people over time as they make deals, become entrenched, etc. While many of these career type bureaucrat don't make policy, the way they lead and manage their departments can have the effect of making policy... so it's not entirely like they're a robot following a script. If the president can't replace them, that transfers power to those bureaucrat. Same reason, as a conservative, that I'm against term limits for congress... even for inside trading lying grifters like Pelosi. Presumably her constituency is voting for her over and over again.

I see that in my line of work where a military officer is placed over a team of long-serving civil servants.  The attitude is often "you're here for a couple years, we'll survive you and your bright ideas."  You're dependent on their experience and longevity to get anything done, but if you want to change anything its an uphill climb.  The con side of ensuring your senior government officers are rotated and cut from your cloth is that there's no guarantee they actually know what they're doing. A lot of our cabinet-level appointees are plucked from academia, industry, or even from the Senate without recent (or any) hands-on experience.  It's been a long time since we've had a State Department head that had any clue about how to deal with other nations.  The deputy and assistant cabinet positions, while also appointees, are usually more closely vetted for qualifications.

PDXTabs

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #212 on: January 10, 2022, 05:59:52 PM »
Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

I used to identify as a Libertarian in my early 20s. I think there's a lot of truth to the saying that Libertarians are like house cats...

Everything is relative. I'd rather join the Libertarian Party than the GOP or the CCP.

GuitarStv

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #213 on: January 10, 2022, 06:11:24 PM »
Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

I used to identify as a Libertarian in my early 20s. I think there's a lot of truth to the saying that Libertarians are like house cats...

Everything is relative. I'd rather join the Libertarian Party than the GOP or the CCP.

The key difference between Libertarians and Communists is that the Libertarians have never advanced an argument that convinced people to try their crazy plan to doom a whole society.  Similar level of crazy though.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #214 on: January 10, 2022, 07:37:12 PM »
Plenty of room in the Libertarian Party.

I used to identify as a Libertarian in my early 20s. I think there's a lot of truth to the saying that Libertarians are like house cats...

Everything is relative. I'd rather join the Libertarian Party than the GOP or the CCP.

The key difference between Libertarians and Communists is that the Libertarians have never advanced an argument that convinced people to try their crazy plan to doom a whole society.  Similar level of crazy though.

We are a social species.  The Communists take that to an extreme.  The Libertarians deny it. Their philosophy would work just fine for an asocial species with no technology that depends on others.

And of course, when I think of Libertarians I used to think of Larry Niven's Cloak of Anarchy*.  Now I think of the Libertarian town and the bears.

*https://larryniven.net/stories/cloak_of_anarchy.shtml  Definitely a good read.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 07:40:34 PM by RetiredAt63 »

PDXTabs

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #215 on: January 10, 2022, 07:52:16 PM »
The key difference between Libertarians and Communists is that the Libertarians have never advanced an argument that convinced people to try their crazy plan to doom a whole society.  Similar level of crazy though.

You know the difference between the Libertarians and the CCCP? The Libertarians would let you emigrate.

GuitarStv

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #216 on: January 11, 2022, 08:04:03 AM »
The key difference between Libertarians and Communists is that the Libertarians have never advanced an argument that convinced people to try their crazy plan to doom a whole society.  Similar level of crazy though.

You know the difference between the Libertarians and the CCCP? The Libertarians would let you emigrate.

Sure.  As long as you can make it past the roving gangs who control the roads, and the mercenaries who shake down travelers before every bridge, the thugs who control entry to every city, etc.

Since in a Libertarian world there's no need for publicly funded stuff like police might makes right.  If you don't like it you're 'free' to fight each and every one of these militarized groups, so it's obviously preferable than participating in the system of theft called taxation.

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #217 on: January 11, 2022, 08:13:00 AM »
For anyone who wants some insight into how Trump's administration started, read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk.  I am not finished it yet, and I have never cringed so much in my life reading one book. 


So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.

Yes, that was an absolutely terrifying read for me. It's a really bad look when Rudy Giuliani appears to be the most sensible person in the room in the early days...

Absolutely agree on the second part as well.

As a counter point, if you leave too many department leaders in place admin to admin, you effectively transfer more and more power to these people over time as they make deals, become entrenched, etc. While many of these career type bureaucrat don't make policy, the way they lead and manage their departments can have the effect of making policy... so it's not entirely like they're a robot following a script. If the president can't replace them, that transfers power to those bureaucrat. Same reason, as a conservative, that I'm against term limits for congress... even for inside trading lying grifters like Pelosi. Presumably her constituency is voting for her over and over again.

The con side of ensuring your senior government officers are rotated and cut from your cloth is that there's no guarantee they actually know what they're doing. A lot of our cabinet-level appointees are plucked from academia, industry, or even from the Senate without recent (or any) hands-on experience. 

From the perspective of many conservatives, this was a benefit. Culturally, conservatives believe that private sector success can be translated into success performing the few functions of government they believe are truly necessary. Hence the cabinet appointments of Tillerson, Carson, and DeVos.

For the many government functions they believe are unnecessary (or were over-reaching under Democratic administrations), this is also good, as putting trustworthy conservatives in charge will mean those functions can be shrunken. Hence the appointments of Perry to energy and Mulvaney to CFPB (and the potential appointment of Judy SHelton to the Federal Reserve Board).

Making more of these position non-partisan civil-service types would further entrench these functions of government, which is undesirable from the perspective of the conservative movement.

PDXTabs

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #218 on: January 11, 2022, 09:54:25 AM »
Sure.  As long as you can make it past the roving gangs who control the roads, and the mercenaries who shake down travelers before every bridge, the thugs who control entry to every city, etc.

Since in a Libertarian world there's no need for publicly funded stuff like police might makes right.  If you don't like it you're 'free' to fight each and every one of these militarized groups, so it's obviously preferable than participating in the system of theft called taxation.

It really is the horseshoe of politics. They want to defund the police.

BoonDogle

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #219 on: January 11, 2022, 10:50:37 AM »
Not sure it's quite the doomsday scenario that some of you are projecting.  The practice of each party trying to bully the people of the other party would end.  There is certainly a place for government (and police) to do the work that benefits the people.  But libertarians believe government should be limited and not try to dictate people's lives nor be involved in enforcing victimless crimes.  Republicans and Democrats have both decided that they like massive government, budget deficits, and trying to tell the other party how to live their lives (Republicans on social issues, Democrats on economic issues and well, virtually everything).

As far as the governments role, life would go on fine without the Department of Commerce and the Department of Education, among a couple of the obvious ones.  It existed fine at one point without these bureaucracies.  Police would be charged with enforcing crimes against others and other's property instead of drug offences and other victimless crimes.  We'd have to decide that we cannot and should not try to solve every problem with government and that some problems are best solved within communities, families, etc.  Federal government should limit their role to issues that affect the nation, states to issues that affect the state, and local governments to issues that affect local communities.

The comments about roaming gangs and racist libertarians are BS.  If there are those sentiments within the party, they are certainly not mainstream.

nereo

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #220 on: January 11, 2022, 11:10:07 AM »
Not sure it's quite the doomsday scenario that some of you are projecting.  The practice of each party trying to bully the people of the other party would end.  There is certainly a place for government (and police) to do the work that benefits the people.  But libertarians believe government should be limited and not try to dictate people's lives nor be involved in enforcing victimless crimes.  Republicans and Democrats have both decided that they like massive government, budget deficits, and trying to tell the other party how to live their lives (Republicans on social issues, Democrats on economic issues and well, virtually everything).

As far as the governments role, life would go on fine without the Department of Commerce and the Department of Education, among a couple of the obvious ones.  It existed fine at one point without these bureaucracies.  Police would be charged with enforcing crimes against others and other's property instead of drug offences and other victimless crimes.  We'd have to decide that we cannot and should not try to solve every problem with government and that some problems are best solved within communities, families, etc.  Federal government should limit their role to issues that affect the nation, states to issues that affect the state, and local governments to issues that affect local communities.

The comments about roaming gangs and racist libertarians are BS.  If there are those sentiments within the party, they are certainly not mainstream.

I find I seldom agree with libertarians when they claim “victimless crimes”, nor do I share with them the belief that almost all individuals will behave altruistically - which seems to be a prerequisite for having a libertarian-themed government not become a dystopian nightmare.

BoonDogle

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #221 on: January 11, 2022, 11:40:23 AM »
Not sure it's quite the doomsday scenario that some of you are projecting.  The practice of each party trying to bully the people of the other party would end.  There is certainly a place for government (and police) to do the work that benefits the people.  But libertarians believe government should be limited and not try to dictate people's lives nor be involved in enforcing victimless crimes.  Republicans and Democrats have both decided that they like massive government, budget deficits, and trying to tell the other party how to live their lives (Republicans on social issues, Democrats on economic issues and well, virtually everything).

As far as the governments role, life would go on fine without the Department of Commerce and the Department of Education, among a couple of the obvious ones.  It existed fine at one point without these bureaucracies.  Police would be charged with enforcing crimes against others and other's property instead of drug offences and other victimless crimes.  We'd have to decide that we cannot and should not try to solve every problem with government and that some problems are best solved within communities, families, etc.  Federal government should limit their role to issues that affect the nation, states to issues that affect the state, and local governments to issues that affect local communities.

The comments about roaming gangs and racist libertarians are BS.  If there are those sentiments within the party, they are certainly not mainstream.

I find I seldom agree with libertarians when they claim “victimless crimes”, nor do I share with them the belief that almost all individuals will behave altruistically - which seems to be a prerequisite for having a libertarian-themed government not become a dystopian nightmare.

You must be classifying the person that willingly engages in the smoking of marijuana as the victim (of their own choices, I guess).  Or any person that the only harm they are doing is to themselves.  Or any person caught up in silly gun regulations such as Shaneen Allen.  Most libertarians don't claim that our view of government is perfect, just better.  I don't think there is any prerequisite of having one behave altruistically, nor do I believe that anything other than the status quo would be a disaster.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #222 on: January 11, 2022, 11:56:28 AM »
Not sure it's quite the doomsday scenario that some of you are projecting.  The practice of each party trying to bully the people of the other party would end.  There is certainly a place for government (and police) to do the work that benefits the people.  But libertarians believe government should be limited and not try to dictate people's lives nor be involved in enforcing victimless crimes.  Republicans and Democrats have both decided that they like massive government, budget deficits, and trying to tell the other party how to live their lives (Republicans on social issues, Democrats on economic issues and well, virtually everything).

As far as the governments role, life would go on fine without the Department of Commerce and the Department of Education, among a couple of the obvious ones.  It existed fine at one point without these bureaucracies.  Police would be charged with enforcing crimes against others and other's property instead of drug offences and other victimless crimes.  We'd have to decide that we cannot and should not try to solve every problem with government and that some problems are best solved within communities, families, etc.  Federal government should limit their role to issues that affect the nation, states to issues that affect the state, and local governments to issues that affect local communities.

The comments about roaming gangs and racist libertarians are BS.  If there are those sentiments within the party, they are certainly not mainstream.

I find I seldom agree with libertarians when they claim “victimless crimes”, nor do I share with them the belief that almost all individuals will behave altruistically - which seems to be a prerequisite for having a libertarian-themed government not become a dystopian nightmare.

You must be classifying the person that willingly engages in the smoking of marijuana as the victim (of their own choices, I guess).  Or any person that the only harm they are doing is to themselves.  Or any person caught up in silly gun regulations such as Shaneen Allen. Most libertarians don't claim that our view of government is perfect, just better. I don't think there is any prerequisite of having one behave altruistically, nor do I believe that anything other than the status quo would be a disaster.

Have you read A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear: The Utopian Plot to Liberate an American Town (And Some Bears)?  A bunch of Libertarians got to put their principles into action and wrecked a small town.  They didn't show much civic mindedness.

Of course my political outlook may be affected by the philosophy of Peace, Order and Good Government instead of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.  Canadians see the government as their government who will (generally) do as we want them to do or we will throw them out, as opposed to the government is a big bully.  I mean, where else could the abolition of the Long Form Census end up as a major political issue?     ;-)   
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 12:02:28 PM by RetiredAt63 »

bacchi

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #223 on: January 11, 2022, 11:59:29 AM »
You must be classifying the person that willingly engages in the smoking of marijuana as the victim (of their own choices, I guess).  Or any person that the only harm they are doing is to themselves.  Or any person caught up in silly gun regulations such as Shaneen Allen.  Most libertarians don't claim that our view of government is perfect, just better.  I don't think there is any prerequisite of having one behave altruistically, nor do I believe that anything other than the status quo would be a disaster.

It's always been about where to draw the line.

Quote from: https://reason.com/2017/03/14/american-sex-police/
There's little evidence that Operation Cross Country is helping trafficking victims in a significant way, but there is ample indication that it's making lots of people worse off—not just men and women choosing to engage in consensual commercial sex*, but teens** who meet the FBI's definition of "victims" as well.

[* added; the "victims" in quotes is in the original]

* Consensual commercial sex with teenagers
** "All were teenagers—mostly 16- and 17-year-olds"

Victimless? Or are "mostly 16- and 17-year-olds" too young for prostitution?

GuitarStv

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #224 on: January 11, 2022, 01:18:45 PM »
Not sure it's quite the doomsday scenario that some of you are projecting.  The practice of each party trying to bully the people of the other party would end.  There is certainly a place for government (and police) to do the work that benefits the people.  But libertarians believe government should be limited and not try to dictate people's lives nor be involved in enforcing victimless crimes.  Republicans and Democrats have both decided that they like massive government, budget deficits, and trying to tell the other party how to live their lives (Republicans on social issues, Democrats on economic issues and well, virtually everything).

As far as the governments role, life would go on fine without the Department of Commerce and the Department of Education, among a couple of the obvious ones.  It existed fine at one point without these bureaucracies.  Police would be charged with enforcing crimes against others and other's property instead of drug offences and other victimless crimes.  We'd have to decide that we cannot and should not try to solve every problem with government and that some problems are best solved within communities, families, etc.  Federal government should limit their role to issues that affect the nation, states to issues that affect the state, and local governments to issues that affect local communities.

The comments about roaming gangs and racist libertarians are BS.  If there are those sentiments within the party, they are certainly not mainstream.

I find I seldom agree with libertarians when they claim “victimless crimes”, nor do I share with them the belief that almost all individuals will behave altruistically - which seems to be a prerequisite for having a libertarian-themed government not become a dystopian nightmare.

You must be classifying the person that willingly engages in the smoking of marijuana as the victim (of their own choices, I guess).  Or any person that the only harm they are doing is to themselves.  Or any person caught up in silly gun regulations such as Shaneen Allen. Most libertarians don't claim that our view of government is perfect, just better. I don't think there is any prerequisite of having one behave altruistically, nor do I believe that anything other than the status quo would be a disaster.

Have you read A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear: The Utopian Plot to Liberate an American Town (And Some Bears)?  A bunch of Libertarians got to put their principles into action and wrecked a small town.  They didn't show much civic mindedness.

Of course my political outlook may be affected by the philosophy of Peace, Order and Good Government instead of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.  Canadians see the government as their government who will (generally) do as we want them to do or we will throw them out, as opposed to the government is a big bully.  I mean, where else could the abolition of the Long Form Census end up as a major political issue?     ;-)   

Don't forget the Libertarian paradise of Galt's Gulch in Chile.  I'd strongly encourage anyone interested in how Libertarianism works in the real world to read about it.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #225 on: January 11, 2022, 01:42:37 PM »
Is there a good reference for what would be a coherent libertarian public health response to the COVID threat?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #226 on: January 11, 2022, 04:40:04 PM »
Not sure it's quite the doomsday scenario that some of you are projecting.  The practice of each party trying to bully the people of the other party would end.  There is certainly a place for government (and police) to do the work that benefits the people.  But libertarians believe government should be limited and not try to dictate people's lives nor be involved in enforcing victimless crimes.  Republicans and Democrats have both decided that they like massive government, budget deficits, and trying to tell the other party how to live their lives (Republicans on social issues, Democrats on economic issues and well, virtually everything).

As far as the governments role, life would go on fine without the Department of Commerce and the Department of Education, among a couple of the obvious ones.  It existed fine at one point without these bureaucracies.  Police would be charged with enforcing crimes against others and other's property instead of drug offences and other victimless crimes.  We'd have to decide that we cannot and should not try to solve every problem with government and that some problems are best solved within communities, families, etc.  Federal government should limit their role to issues that affect the nation, states to issues that affect the state, and local governments to issues that affect local communities.

The comments about roaming gangs and racist libertarians are BS.  If there are those sentiments within the party, they are certainly not mainstream.

I find I seldom agree with libertarians when they claim “victimless crimes”, nor do I share with them the belief that almost all individuals will behave altruistically - which seems to be a prerequisite for having a libertarian-themed government not become a dystopian nightmare.

You must be classifying the person that willingly engages in the smoking of marijuana as the victim (of their own choices, I guess).  Or any person that the only harm they are doing is to themselves.  Or any person caught up in silly gun regulations such as Shaneen Allen. Most libertarians don't claim that our view of government is perfect, just better. I don't think there is any prerequisite of having one behave altruistically, nor do I believe that anything other than the status quo would be a disaster.

Have you read A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear: The Utopian Plot to Liberate an American Town (And Some Bears)?  A bunch of Libertarians got to put their principles into action and wrecked a small town.  They didn't show much civic mindedness.

Of course my political outlook may be affected by the philosophy of Peace, Order and Good Government instead of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.  Canadians see the government as their government who will (generally) do as we want them to do or we will throw them out, as opposed to the government is a big bully.  I mean, where else could the abolition of the Long Form Census end up as a major political issue?     ;-)   

Don't forget the Libertarian paradise of Galt's Gulch in Chile.  I'd strongly encourage anyone interested in how Libertarianism works in the real world to read about it.

Haven't read about that.  And of course when I worry about fringe groups that have some actual numbers I get to worry about Quebec separatistes and western separatists, not to mention the collapse of the Green party.  But given the number of Q Anon people here, I suppose we might need to start worrying about Libertarians too, even though both Q Anon and Libertarian seem so specifically American in philosophy.

Travis

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #227 on: January 11, 2022, 04:52:51 PM »
For anyone who wants some insight into how Trump's administration started, read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk.  I am not finished it yet, and I have never cringed so much in my life reading one book. 


So I don't understand why a President has >1000 appointments to make. It's like the whole government changes every 8 (or 4) years.  Massively inefficient.

Yes, that was an absolutely terrifying read for me. It's a really bad look when Rudy Giuliani appears to be the most sensible person in the room in the early days...

Absolutely agree on the second part as well.

As a counter point, if you leave too many department leaders in place admin to admin, you effectively transfer more and more power to these people over time as they make deals, become entrenched, etc. While many of these career type bureaucrat don't make policy, the way they lead and manage their departments can have the effect of making policy... so it's not entirely like they're a robot following a script. If the president can't replace them, that transfers power to those bureaucrat. Same reason, as a conservative, that I'm against term limits for congress... even for inside trading lying grifters like Pelosi. Presumably her constituency is voting for her over and over again.

The con side of ensuring your senior government officers are rotated and cut from your cloth is that there's no guarantee they actually know what they're doing. A lot of our cabinet-level appointees are plucked from academia, industry, or even from the Senate without recent (or any) hands-on experience. 

From the perspective of many conservatives, this was a benefit. Culturally, conservatives believe that private sector success can be translated into success performing the few functions of government they believe are truly necessary. Hence the cabinet appointments of Tillerson, Carson, and DeVos.

For the many government functions they believe are unnecessary (or were over-reaching under Democratic administrations), this is also good, as putting trustworthy conservatives in charge will mean those functions can be shrunken. Hence the appointments of Perry to energy and Mulvaney to CFPB (and the potential appointment of Judy SHelton to the Federal Reserve Board).

Making more of these position non-partisan civil-service types would further entrench these functions of government, which is undesirable from the perspective of the conservative movement.

I would have put those three in the latter category. The Republican Party platform has always included the rhetoric of "the Education department is pointless" and DeVos' expertise is in advocating for charter schools. Democrat opposition to her was similar to that of DeJoy for Postmaster General. Someone was nominated whose qualifications look closer to "I'm here to dismantle this department" rather than "I'm here to run it."  The closest thing Tillerson ever did in foreign affairs was trade oil with Russia as head of Exxon. Ben Carson is a surgeon and knows squat about building cities, and when was the last time a Republican said "the government should provide housing to poor people?"

« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 06:40:04 PM by Travis »

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #228 on: January 13, 2022, 07:37:38 AM »
@Travis, I think we largely agree, although I was trying to add on the typically conservative narrative of Private Sector success shows the skills of someone who can run government programs as a way of differentiating Tillerson from Perry, for example.

Of course, DeVos' investment with Theranos may indicate that her skills in understanding business have more to do with winning the genetic lottery than an understanding of how a business can be made successful.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #229 on: January 13, 2022, 10:53:52 AM »
I can't take credit for making this observation, but I saw some twitter conversations that made two points:

1) moderates/centrists seem to have gotten what they wanted out of Biden and the 116th Congress with the passage of the infrastructure bill + the (to date) blocking of the more ambitious left-of-center agenda (student loan cancellation, M4All, etc.)
2) Biden/Democratic polling is "tanking" (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/  https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/trackers/the-democratic-party-favorability)

As a relatively left-leaning person, how do you centrists reconcile these? Are they unrelated, and there's some other factor outweighing point #1 (in the summer we would have said Afghanistan, but that's been out of the news for months now with no reversal of point #2)? I'm biased towards believing that Biden/Democrats are getting hit for not moving the more leftist agenda items forward, and that these two points provide evidence against the argument that Democrats need to "take the center", but would like to hear/discuss the counterpoints, in the context of continuing outrages related to our 45th President of course.

Virtus3

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #230 on: January 13, 2022, 11:46:40 AM »
I can't take credit for making this observation, but I saw some twitter conversations that made two points:

1) moderates/centrists seem to have gotten what they wanted out of Biden and the 116th Congress with the passage of the infrastructure bill + the (to date) blocking of the more ambitious left-of-center agenda (student loan cancellation, M4All, etc.)
2) Biden/Democratic polling is "tanking" (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/  https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/trackers/the-democratic-party-favorability)

As a relatively left-leaning person, how do you centrists reconcile these? Are they unrelated, and there's some other factor outweighing point #1 (in the summer we would have said Afghanistan, but that's been out of the news for months now with no reversal of point #2)? I'm biased towards believing that Biden/Democrats are getting hit for not moving the more leftist agenda items forward, and that these two points provide evidence against the argument that Democrats need to "take the center", but would like to hear/discuss the counterpoints, in the context of continuing outrages related to our 45th President of course.

I've found myself leaning further and further left over the last couple of years. I don't understand why Biden/Democrats are tanking so much in the polls. Basically anything that is happening right now (or not happening) is due to Manchin, Sinema, and the refusal of any Republican to step across the aisle.

Kris

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #231 on: January 13, 2022, 12:09:16 PM »
I can't take credit for making this observation, but I saw some twitter conversations that made two points:

1) moderates/centrists seem to have gotten what they wanted out of Biden and the 116th Congress with the passage of the infrastructure bill + the (to date) blocking of the more ambitious left-of-center agenda (student loan cancellation, M4All, etc.)
2) Biden/Democratic polling is "tanking" (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/  https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/trackers/the-democratic-party-favorability)

As a relatively left-leaning person, how do you centrists reconcile these? Are they unrelated, and there's some other factor outweighing point #1 (in the summer we would have said Afghanistan, but that's been out of the news for months now with no reversal of point #2)? I'm biased towards believing that Biden/Democrats are getting hit for not moving the more leftist agenda items forward, and that these two points provide evidence against the argument that Democrats need to "take the center", but would like to hear/discuss the counterpoints, in the context of continuing outrages related to our 45th President of course.

I've found myself leaning further and further left over the last couple of years. I don't understand why Biden/Democrats are tanking so much in the polls. Basically anything that is happening right now (or not happening) is due to Manchin, Sinema, and the refusal of any Republican to step across the aisle.

Most people don't pay that much attention to what is actually happening. Which is why the media plays such an outsized role in opinion-making. They report on the tanking, and the lack of satisfaction. Which creates a feedback loop that reinforces that narrative.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #232 on: January 13, 2022, 12:37:43 PM »
Most people don't pay that much attention to what is actually happening. Which is why the media plays such an outsized role in opinion-making. They report on the tanking, and the lack of satisfaction. Which creates a feedback loop that reinforces that narrative.

Great point, and it's one I share to an extent. I don't really buy the "sheeple" arguments, I tend to think the "masses" are more cognizant and considerate than the press often gives them credit for, but I've been seeing chatter about how the UK public sentiment turn against Boris Johnson recently can be largely explained by previously complicit media that have decided they had enough, and I think the tone set by national media plays an outsized role in public sentiment when there's nothing else to galvanize people for (or against) a political project.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #233 on: January 14, 2022, 06:44:43 AM »
While everyone is focused on Joe Biden and his struggles, the former First Lady has her own focus: making money in the Web 3.0 economy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/17/melania-trump-nft/

nereo

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #234 on: January 14, 2022, 06:53:55 AM »
While everyone is focused on Joe Biden and his struggles, the former First Lady has her own focus: making money in the Web 3.0 economy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/17/melania-trump-nft/

Meh?  The role of First Lady has always been a strange one to me.  Absolutely no explicit power, but an expectation to “do something” while remaining a-political.
I’m not at all surprised that Melania would use her former position to make a substantial amount of money -there’s certainly a well-worn precedent of this and her entire background involves self-promotion and image control.

I’m remain far more outraged that Trump can’t even hold himself together for an entirely predictible interview by a non-friendly news organization

Kris

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #235 on: January 14, 2022, 06:57:21 AM »
While everyone is focused on Joe Biden and his struggles, the former First Lady has her own focus: making money in the Web 3.0 economy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/17/melania-trump-nft/

Selling something of no actual value to gullible consumers is pretty on-brand for a Trump.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #236 on: January 14, 2022, 07:01:05 AM »
While everyone is focused on Joe Biden and his struggles, the former First Lady has her own focus: making money in the Web 3.0 economy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/17/melania-trump-nft/

Meh?  The role of First Lady has always been a strange one to me.  Absolutely no explicit power, but an expectation to “do something” while remaining a-political.
I’m not at all surprised that Melania would use her former position to make a substantial amount of money -there’s certainly a well-worn precedent of this and her entire background involves self-promotion and image control.

I’m remain far more outraged that Trump can’t even hold himself together for an entirely predictible interview by a non-friendly news organization

I thought Inskeep put together a fantastic segment. Here's the Post's take:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2022/01/14/npr-inskeep-trump-interview/

I'd hoped that Trump would go away if we just started ignoring him, but it's clear there's still going to be a lot of Trump in the next 3 (or more) years.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #237 on: January 14, 2022, 07:31:02 AM »
I can't take credit for making this observation, but I saw some twitter conversations that made two points:

1) moderates/centrists seem to have gotten what they wanted out of Biden and the 116th Congress with the passage of the infrastructure bill + the (to date) blocking of the more ambitious left-of-center agenda (student loan cancellation, M4All, etc.)
2) Biden/Democratic polling is "tanking" (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/  https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/trackers/the-democratic-party-favorability)

As a relatively left-leaning person, how do you centrists reconcile these? Are they unrelated, and there's some other factor outweighing point #1 (in the summer we would have said Afghanistan, but that's been out of the news for months now with no reversal of point #2)? I'm biased towards believing that Biden/Democrats are getting hit for not moving the more leftist agenda items forward, and that these two points provide evidence against the argument that Democrats need to "take the center", but would like to hear/discuss the counterpoints, in the context of continuing outrages related to our 45th President of course.

I've found myself leaning further and further left over the last couple of years. I don't understand why Biden/Democrats are tanking so much in the polls. Basically anything that is happening right now (or not happening) is due to Manchin, Sinema, and the refusal of any Republican to step across the aisle.

Same here.  I would not put blame on any leader who is trying to get something done but 50% + 2 of the people in the room are actively blocking you. 

What are they expecting Biden to do?  He has been "negotiating" with Manchin and Sinema for a year now, to no avail.  Now what?
Do centrists think re-electing Trump is the answer?

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #238 on: January 14, 2022, 09:26:45 AM »
Manchin feels like he's representing his voters.

Virtus3

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brandon1827

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #240 on: January 14, 2022, 09:48:29 AM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Kris

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #241 on: January 14, 2022, 10:17:07 AM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Exactly. And he knows it. He is just saying he is representing his constituents, banking on the fact that no one will call him on it in a way that draws the attention of his actual constituents.

cliffhanger

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #242 on: January 14, 2022, 10:44:44 AM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Joe Manchin votes in line with Biden's position 97.5% of the time. Therefore, 97.5% of Biden's positions do not represent the constituents of West Virginia.

I really do appreciate you making it this clear. You're doing great!

Virtus3

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #243 on: January 14, 2022, 11:52:58 AM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Joe Manchin votes in line with Biden's position 97.5% of the time. Therefore, 97.5% of Biden's positions do not represent the constituents of West Virginia.

I really do appreciate you making it this clear. You're doing great!

Way to twist what he's saying. The point couldn't be that BBB would benefit the state that ranks near the bottom in all of healthcare, education, economy, and infrastructure....

brandon1827

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #244 on: January 14, 2022, 12:08:30 PM »
Yep...he seems to be getting richer and richer representing the coal lobby while West Virginians languish in many facets of daily life

former player

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #245 on: January 14, 2022, 12:22:58 PM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Joe Manchin votes in line with Biden's position 97.5% of the time. Therefore, 97.5% of Biden's positions do not represent the constituents of West Virginia.

I really do appreciate you making it this clear. You're doing great!
The only reason Manchin has such a high percentage voting with Biden is that his opposition in effect prevents any votes being taken on the things he won't vote for, because the vote would be lost.  So your 97.5% is out of only the part of Biden issues Manchin approves of, not the whole range.

Kris

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #246 on: January 14, 2022, 12:24:58 PM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Joe Manchin votes in line with Biden's position 97.5% of the time. Therefore, 97.5% of Biden's positions do not represent the constituents of West Virginia.

I really do appreciate you making it this clear. You're doing great!

Way to twist what he's saying. The point couldn't be that BBB would benefit the state that ranks near the bottom in all of healthcare, education, economy, and infrastructure....

I am always fascinated by comments like cliffhanger's. Because I always wonder whether they are straight up trolling (meaning they know what they are saying is untrue, but they say it anyway because????) or whether they are just not very good at critical thinking/math/information.

JoePublic3.14

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #247 on: January 14, 2022, 01:33:16 PM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Joe Manchin votes in line with Biden's position 97.5% of the time. Therefore, 97.5% of Biden's positions do not represent the constituents of West Virginia.

I really do appreciate you making it this clear. You're doing great!

Way to twist what he's saying. The point couldn't be that BBB would benefit the state that ranks near the bottom in all of healthcare, education, economy, and infrastructure....

I am always fascinated by comments like cliffhanger's. Because I always wonder whether they are straight up trolling (meaning they know what they are saying is untrue, but they say it anyway because????) or whether they are just not very good at critical thinking/math/information.

I am always fascinated at the automatic replies that are easily solicited from people. As predictable as a computer program. I wonder if it is because they are brainwashed or simply not very good at thinking.


brandon1827

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #248 on: January 14, 2022, 01:43:16 PM »
I think that one is just a straight up troll

cliffhanger

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #249 on: January 14, 2022, 03:03:56 PM »
By no objective measure is Machin anywhere near representing his constituents...not even close

Joe Manchin votes in line with Biden's position 97.5% of the time. Therefore, 97.5% of Biden's positions do not represent the constituents of West Virginia.

I really do appreciate you making it this clear. You're doing great!

Way to twist what he's saying. The point couldn't be that BBB would benefit the state that ranks near the bottom in all of healthcare, education, economy, and infrastructure....

I am always fascinated by comments like cliffhanger's. Because I always wonder whether they are straight up trolling (meaning they know what they are saying is untrue, but they say it anyway because????) or whether they are just not very good at critical thinking/math/information.

Kris, I'm sure that, you being an experienced forum member, you don't mean to blatantly disregard the rules (#2: Attack an argument, not a person). I'd be grateful if you could lay out where exactly I err in my critical thinking/math/information.

In school we're taught something called the Transitive Property. That if A = B and B = C, then A = C. I've hyperlinked it if you want more information.

(A = B): By no objective measure is Manchin anywhere near representing his West Virginia constituents...not even close
(B = C): Joe Manchin votes for legislation in alignment with Joe Biden the overwhelming majority of the time.
(A = C): By no objective measure is Biden anywhere near representing his West Virginia constituents...not even close