Holding the door for Women

[use2betrix]

So you treat men differently in these situations because men are statistically more likely to assault you. So based off that information you feel it’s acceptable to act differently towards them?

As a male, from a safety perspective, I think that's acceptable behavior.  Women live in a different would than I do.  I wish they didn't have to, and I'm not always good at recognizing it, but it's an unfortunate fact and I try to keep it in mind.

Have you ever looked up statistics of certain minority groups? Could you imagine if it was acceptable to treat people in those groups differently because of it?

I think there’s a term for that action.. can’t think of it off hand though.

What's the alternative?  Women accepting an approaching male the same they would a female, and put themselves in harms way?  If I'm passing a woman on the sidewalk at night and see her grip her pepper spray, even though 30 seconds before she didn't do that when she passed another woman, why would I get upset about that?  To me that is rational behavior due to the world she lives in.  Same if she turns down the help of a male on the side of the road but not a female.

We can take the conversation to racism if you want, and discuss how it's the same or how it's not, but I'm not sure how that helps the topic at hand, or what you're trying to tell Kris she should be doing around males at night when she's alone and vulnerable.

Would it be acceptable for a single woman to openly state that she requires any black man she sleeps with to have an HIV test prior, but not for white men?

Because.. you know.. statistically..

I just don’t see how it should be socially acceptable to treat any person differently based on their gender (or race).

Spin it however you want.. it’s discriminatory.

I think it's acceptable for anyone to require any kind of test for any reason from someone they're sleeping with.  The man can also get offended and decide not to sleep with her if he wants.

I'm still curious what you think the females should be doing differently in the example situations given in this thread.

Yeah.. but is it ok to only require a certain ethnic group to take that test based on the color of their skin, due to statistics...

[partgypsy]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar. 

[RyanAtTanagra]

Yeah.. but is it ok to only require a certain ethnic group to take that test based on the color of their skin, due to statistics...

Yes, I already said so.  Similarly, if I decided I were homosexual, I would require my sexual partners be HIV tested, due to higher chances of someone having it, even though that's not something generally tested for in sexually active heterosexuals.  Does that make me homophobic?

[partgypsy]

So you treat men differently in these situations because men are statistically more likely to assault you. So based off that information you feel it’s acceptable to act differently towards them?

As a male, from a safety perspective, I think that's acceptable behavior.  Women live in a different would than I do.  I wish they didn't have to, and I'm not always good at recognizing it, but it's an unfortunate fact and I try to keep it in mind.

Have you ever looked up statistics of certain minority groups? Could you imagine if it was acceptable to treat people in those groups differently because of it?

I think there’s a term for that action.. can’t think of it off hand though.

What's the alternative?  Women accepting an approaching male the same they would a female, and put themselves in harms way?  If I'm passing a woman on the sidewalk at night and see her grip her pepper spray, even though 30 seconds before she didn't do that when she passed another woman, why would I get upset about that?  To me that is rational behavior due to the world she lives in.  Same if she turns down the help of a male on the side of the road but not a female.

We can take the conversation to racism if you want, and discuss how it's the same or how it's not, but I'm not sure how that helps the topic at hand, or what you're trying to tell Kris she should be doing around males at night when she's alone and vulnerable.

Would it be acceptable for a single woman to openly state that she requires any black man she sleeps with to have an HIV test prior, but not for white men?

Because.. you know.. statistically..

I just don’t see how it should be socially acceptable to treat any person differently based on their gender (or race).

Spin it however you want.. it’s discriminatory.

I think it's acceptable for anyone to require any kind of test for any reason from someone they're sleeping with.  The man can also get offended and decide not to sleep with her if he wants.

I'm still curious what you think the females should be doing differently in the example situations given in this thread.

Yeah.. but is it ok to only require a certain ethnic group to take that test based on the color of their skin, due to statistics...

I would say yes it is racist if it was government-mandated deal, because you can't tell if someone has HIV or not by looking at them. That's why when I was in the hospital to give birth to my 2 kids, each time they drew blood to test me for HIV because they couldn't "assume" either way.   

As far as what you do in your personal life, that is a different story, and people can choose to ask each partner to be tested, none of them or some particular subset. Who you choose to ask to be tested could be racist, sexist, or all manner of thing (anti-furries) but that is in the realm of personal voluntary behavior. If the potential partner does not want the test they are free to not have it done. 

[use2betrix]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Interesting you bring up police officers.. Beings that there is such a strong social movement between blacks and police.. I wonder if police officers were able to speak candidly, how their interactions would be with blacks compared to other groups...

[RyanAtTanagra]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Is it more or less ok for someone to put themselves in physical danger for the sake of 'it's the right thing to do, and I don't want to offend them'?  I'm still not sure what you're saying those in this thread should be doing differently.

[partgypsy]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Well, no offense, you're a guy. You don't live in the same world (that females do), so you get that privilege. 

Random question. You are alone at night and you are being approached by someone. The first person is a hulking person, physically bigger and stronger than you.  The 2nd person is a female or a older less physically strong man. Would you "feel" differently in those 2 situations? Even if it is simply being a little more alert, wary, possibly giving that other person a wider berth? If you do, then you are doing what you yourself is saying is not "ok".   

[use2betrix]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Is it more or less ok for someone to put themselves in physical danger for the sake of 'it's the right thing to do, and I don't want to offend them'?  I'm still not sure what you're saying those in this thread should be doing differently.

When I was 19 I was the only male as a CNA at the nursing home I worked at. One night I got a phone call from a nurse while I was working in the Alzheimer’s unit. She said, “just to let you know, I just heard Kim in the break room talking with Tanya and they were going to make up a story that you sexually harassed her to get you fired.” I immediately walked out of the facility and called HR. This woman did this because I didn’t want to date her and she was mad about it. I’m amazed a woman would do something like that, but it isn’t insanely uncommon.

Should I treat every woman I work with past that point, differently because of shit like that? I certainly wouldn’t have to deal with another man making up a story like that.. at least much less likely...

[use2betrix]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Well, no offense, you're a guy. You don't live in the same world (that females do), so you get that privilege. 

Random question. You are alone at night and you are being approached by someone. The first person is a hulking person, physically bigger and stronger than you.  The 2nd person is a female or a older less physically strong man. Would you "feel" differently in those 2 situations? Even if it is simply being a little more alert, wary, possibly giving that other person a wider berth? If you do, then you are doing what you yourself is saying is not "ok".

Not sure what world you live in where being automatically treated like a rapist is a “privilege.” Didn’t take as long as I thought for that term to be tossed in this thread though..

Regarding the example you gave. A female member on this forum said that on average women are just as strong as men and they are basically equal in that aspect.. So not sure that women are at a disadvantage. I don’t necessarily agree but apparently it’s just more knowledge than I have and don’t understand that.

[RyanAtTanagra]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Is it more or less ok for someone to put themselves in physical danger for the sake of 'it's the right thing to do, and I don't want to offend them'?  I'm still not sure what you're saying those in this thread should be doing differently.

When I was 19 I was the only male as a CNA at the nursing home I worked at. One night I got a phone call from a nurse while I was working in the Alzheimer’s unit. She said, “just to let you know, I just heard Kim in the break room talking with Tanya and they were going to make up a story that you sexually harassed her to get you fired.” I immediately walked out of the facility and called HR. This woman did this because I didn’t want to date her and she was mad about it. I’m amazed a woman would do something like that, but it isn’t insanely uncommon.

Should I treat every woman I work with past that point, differently because of shit like that? I certainly wouldn’t have to deal with another man making up a story like that.. at least much less likely...

That sucks, people are shitty.  But again, what are you saying women should be doing differently in the situations described in this thread?  And how does what you think they should be doing effect their personal safety?

[partgypsy]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Well, no offense, you're a guy. You don't live in the same world (that females do), so you get that privilege. 

Random question. You are alone at night and you are being approached by someone. The first person is a hulking person, physically bigger and stronger than you.  The 2nd person is a female or a older less physically strong man. Would you "feel" differently in those 2 situations? Even if it is simply being a little more alert, wary, possibly giving that other person a wider berth? If you do, then you are doing what you yourself is saying is not "ok".

Not sure what world you live in where being automatically treated like a rapist is a “privilege.” Didn’t take as long as I thought for that term to be tossed in this thread though..

Regarding the example you gave. A female member on this forum said that on average women are just as strong as men and they are basically equal in that aspect.. So not sure that women are at a disadvantage. I don’t necessarily agree but apparently it’s just more knowledge than I have and don’t understand that.

Notice you didn't answer the question. Basically, that if you were in a situation where someone had higher propensity and ability to do you harm, would you behave differently in that situation? I would say most people would, whether they would admit to it or not. That does sucks what happened to you at work, though. 

The "privilege" I was referring to was the not having to be so vigilant and self-aware of your surroundings for your own self-protection, or worrying about having one too many drink at a party might make you sexually "vulnerable" or used as an excuse if something bad happens to you, or wearing only certain kinds of clothes you so don't attract the wrong kind of attention, etc etc.  There is a lot of stuff that you don't have to occupy your "headspace" that women have had to for millenia.

Anyways the fact that a woman for example won't go into an elevator with you if you are the only person around, does not infringe on your rights. She is restricting her own behavior, making things less convenient for herself, for her sense of safety.  Same thing for not running by herself, work late, etc etc. It honestly doesn't materially affect your rights. 

[GuitarStv]

So you treat men differently in these situations because men are statistically more likely to assault you. So based off that information you feel it’s acceptable to act differently towards them?

As a male, from a safety perspective, I think that's acceptable behavior.  Women live in a different would than I do.  I wish they didn't have to, and I'm not always good at recognizing it, but it's an unfortunate fact and I try to keep it in mind.

Have you ever looked up statistics of certain minority groups? Could you imagine if it was acceptable to treat people in those groups differently because of it?

I think there’s a term for that action.. can’t think of it off hand though.

I think that this is a fair comment on the surface.

But, I feel that the disagreement likely comes from a miscommunication rather than identification of real sexism.  The majority of men are bigger and lb for lb significantly stronger than the majority of women (yes there are exceptions, but they are outliers).  I'd expect a woman to treat a bigger/stronger person she doesn't know late at night in a bad part of town quite differently than someone weaker.  This is reasonable action to take.

I suspect that Kris used the term "man" to refer to this, as the majority of men she meets are not likely to be dwarfed by her in both stature and physical strength  . . . and that she wouldn't feel anywhere near as threatened by a man 50 lbs lighter and a foot shorter than her.

[Davnasty]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Well, no offense, you're a guy. You don't live in the same world (that females do), so you get that privilege. 

Random question. You are alone at night and you are being approached by someone. The first person is a hulking person, physically bigger and stronger than you.  The 2nd person is a female or a older less physically strong man. Would you "feel" differently in those 2 situations? Even if it is simply being a little more alert, wary, possibly giving that other person a wider berth? If you do, then you are doing what you yourself is saying is not "ok".

Not sure what world you live in where being automatically treated like a rapist is a “privilege.” Didn’t take as long as I thought for that term to be tossed in this thread though..

Regarding the example you gave. A female member on this forum said that on average women are just as strong as men and they are basically equal in that aspect.. So not sure that women are at a disadvantage. I don’t necessarily agree but apparently it’s just more knowledge than I have and don’t understand that.

Taking the (incorrect) opinion of one person on this forum and applying to a separate conversation as if the "side" you disagree with holds that opinion is not logical.

[use2betrix]

Are you personally offended that Kris, or me would wait to take an elevator if there was only 1 other guy around, and the place was generally deserted? First of all why are you personally offended and 2nd what do you suggest people like me and Kris do in that situation? Ignore our gut feelings? Sorry, I think my safety, comes before your hurt feelings. You can personally choose to do whatever you want though.

Ps If you are worried that it is sexist you can ask any police officer what he would suggest a woman do in these kind of situations and the kinds of safety advice he or should would give would be very similar.

I could personally not care less what a stranger on the internet does or how they act towards other people. If a woman told me she didn’t need help on the side of the road, I also would not care. To each their own.

I just personally don’t believe it’s “ok” to treat people differently based on their gender, color of their skin, etc. I’m not saying I never do, I most certainly do, however I don’t feel it is “ok” for me to do such.

Well, no offense, you're a guy. You don't live in the same world (that females do), so you get that privilege. 

Random question. You are alone at night and you are being approached by someone. The first person is a hulking person, physically bigger and stronger than you.  The 2nd person is a female or a older less physically strong man. Would you "feel" differently in those 2 situations? Even if it is simply being a little more alert, wary, possibly giving that other person a wider berth? If you do, then you are doing what you yourself is saying is not "ok".

Not sure what world you live in where being automatically treated like a rapist is a “privilege.” Didn’t take as long as I thought for that term to be tossed in this thread though..

Regarding the example you gave. A female member on this forum said that on average women are just as strong as men and they are basically equal in that aspect.. So not sure that women are at a disadvantage. I don’t necessarily agree but apparently it’s just more knowledge than I have and don’t understand that.

Notice you didn't answer the question. Basically, that if you were in a situation where someone had higher propensity and ability to do you harm, would you behave differently in that situation? I would say most people would, whether they would admit to it or not. That does sucks what happened to you at work, though. 

The "privilege" I was referring to was the not having to be so vigilant and self-aware of your surroundings for your own self-protection, or worrying about having one too many drink at a party might make you sexually "vulnerable" or used as an excuse if something bad happens to you, or wearing only certain kinds of clothes you so don't attract the wrong kind of attention, etc etc.  There is a lot of stuff that you don't have to occupy your "headspace" that women have had to for millenia.

Anyways the fact that a woman for example won't go into an elevator with you if you are the only person around, does not infringe on your rights. She is restricting her own behavior, making things less convenient for herself, for her sense of safety.  Same thing for not running by herself, work late, etc etc. It honestly doesn't materially affect your rights.

I didn’t answer your question because I am not a “normal” person in that regard, so while I can understand how others may feel, I can’t personally related. I have been in more physical altercations with strangers than I can count off hand (although I have never started the physical altercation.) Growing up wrestling my entire life in one of the strongest wrestling states of the nation, I feel very comfortable in those situations, and knowing my background, I’m not any more concerned if someone is 250 lbs vs 150 lbs. To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

So again - I wasn’t avoiding your question because I didn’t want to answer, but mostly just because I am unable to personally understand the feeling. Maybe if you were to say a 500lb grizzly bear instead of another person I could understand.

[Gin1984]

So you treat men differently in these situations because men are statistically more likely to assault you. So based off that information you feel it’s acceptable to act differently towards them?

As a male, from a safety perspective, I think that's acceptable behavior.  Women live in a different would than I do.  I wish they didn't have to, and I'm not always good at recognizing it, but it's an unfortunate fact and I try to keep it in mind.

Have you ever looked up statistics of certain minority groups? Could you imagine if it was acceptable to treat people in those groups differently because of it?

I think there’s a term for that action.. can’t think of it off hand though.

If you look at actual statistics of behaviors, there is not much different based on race.  There is based on our response to those actions (for example, there is no racial difference in use of marijuana however Blacks are 3.73 times as likely to be arrested for marijuana possession).  You may need to learn a bit more about how to get the statistical data you are referencing.

[use2betrix]

So you treat men differently in these situations because men are statistically more likely to assault you. So based off that information you feel it’s acceptable to act differently towards them?

As a male, from a safety perspective, I think that's acceptable behavior.  Women live in a different would than I do.  I wish they didn't have to, and I'm not always good at recognizing it, but it's an unfortunate fact and I try to keep it in mind.

Have you ever looked up statistics of certain minority groups? Could you imagine if it was acceptable to treat people in those groups differently because of it?

I think there’s a term for that action.. can’t think of it off hand though.

If you look at actual statistics of behaviors, there is not much different based on race.  There is based on our response to those actions (for example, there is no racial difference in use of marijuana however Blacks are 3.73 times as likely to be arrested for marijuana possession).  You may need to learn a bit more about how to get the statistical data you are referencing.

My reference was made to HIV statistics in black men, then another member made a similar comment regarding HIV statistics in homosexual men.

If you’re trying to disprove someone’s point, you may need to learn that it would be helpful to address the specific statistical data they gave as opposed to creating one on your own.

[FrugalToque]

I didn’t answer your question because I am not a “normal” person in that regard, so while I can understand how others may feel, I can’t personally related. I have been in more physical altercations with strangers than I can count off hand (although I have never started the physical altercation.) Growing up wrestling my entire life in one of the strongest wrestling states of the nation, I feel very comfortable in those situations, and knowing my background, I’m not any more concerned if someone is 250 lbs vs 150 lbs. To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

So again - I wasn’t avoiding your question because I didn’t want to answer, but mostly just because I am unable to personally understand the feeling. Maybe if you were to say a 500lb grizzly bear instead of another person I could understand.

So you grew up learning how to wrestle and you're a prize physical specimen.  Great.

Women grew up being told that some portion of the male population, a portion they have no way to identify, is going to try to rape them.

They also grew up knowing that if they did anything "wrong" (wearing a short skirt, not watching their drinks, staying out late etc.), they would likely be categorized as a "bad girl" or "stupid" and blamed for their own rape.

That's the key difference, here.

Toque.

[use2betrix]

I didn’t answer your question because I am not a “normal” person in that regard, so while I can understand how others may feel, I can’t personally related. I have been in more physical altercations with strangers than I can count off hand (although I have never started the physical altercation.) Growing up wrestling my entire life in one of the strongest wrestling states of the nation, I feel very comfortable in those situations, and knowing my background, I’m not any more concerned if someone is 250 lbs vs 150 lbs. To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

So again - I wasn’t avoiding your question because I didn’t want to answer, but mostly just because I am unable to personally understand the feeling. Maybe if you were to say a 500lb grizzly bear instead of another person I could understand.

So you grew up learning how to wrestle and you're a prize physical specimen.  Great.

Women grew up being told that some portion of the male population, a portion they have no way to identify, is going to try to rape them.

They also grew up knowing that if they did anything "wrong" (wearing a short skirt, not watching their drinks, staying out late etc.), they would likely be categorized as a "bad girl" or "stupid" and blamed for their own rape.

That's the key difference, here.

Toque.

I was answering the question (asked multiple times) based on my own personal experience. Nothing less, nothing more. I ignored it the first time because my personal experience is not relative to the topic.

On the topic of sexual harassment. It is odd that for many years I’ve dressed up as Frank N Furter or Magic Mike for Halloween and have had my ass/crotch grabbed more times than I can recall by random women at bars. Easily 20-30 times over the years. It’s happened before even not dressed in a provocative costume.

My wife, a beautiful, fit, young Hispanic woman, has never had that happen to her a single time in our 7+ years together. To my knowledge, it’s never happened to her. It’s happened to me while I’ve been at a bar with her. In fact, one time a group of women asked her for permission.

Of course, I’m a male and don’t care, or we just laugh.

Granted I never feel “threatened or overpowered” which somehow makes it ok.

[Davnasty]

To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

You don't say! :)

[GuitarStv]

To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

You don't say! :)

We may be dealing with a very stable genius.

[use2betrix]

To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

You don't say! :)

We may be dealing with a very stable genius.

I am just rather proud I’m not one of the seemingly 99% that peaked in high school lol.

Genius - I am far from.. I’m just well ahead of most people in life because I work really hard in all aspects.. I’ve said countless times on this forum when discussing income that from an IQ perspective I consider myself well behind most.. I just make up for it in other ways :)

[partgypsy]

I didn’t answer your question because I am not a “normal” person in that regard, so while I can understand how others may feel, I can’t personally related. I have been in more physical altercations with strangers than I can count off hand (although I have never started the physical altercation.) Growing up wrestling my entire life in one of the strongest wrestling states of the nation, I feel very comfortable in those situations, and knowing my background, I’m not any more concerned if someone is 250 lbs vs 150 lbs. To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

So again - I wasn’t avoiding your question because I didn’t want to answer, but mostly just because I am unable to personally understand the feeling. Maybe if you were to say a 500lb grizzly bear instead of another person I could understand.

So you grew up learning how to wrestle and you're a prize physical specimen.  Great.

Women grew up being told that some portion of the male population, a portion they have no way to identify, is going to try to rape them.

They also grew up knowing that if they did anything "wrong" (wearing a short skirt, not watching their drinks, staying out late etc.), they would likely be categorized as a "bad girl" or "stupid" and blamed for their own rape.

That's the key difference, here.

Toque.

I was answering the question (asked multiple times) based on my own personal experience. Nothing less, nothing more. I ignored it the first time because my personal experience is not relative to the topic.

On the topic of sexual harassment. It is odd that for many years I’ve dressed up as Frank N Furter or Magic Mike for Halloween and have had my ass/crotch grabbed more times than I can recall by random women at bars. Easily 20-30 times over the years. It’s happened before even not dressed in a provocative costume.

My wife, a beautiful, fit, young Hispanic woman, has never had that happen to her a single time in our 7+ years together. To my knowledge, it’s never happened to her. It’s happened to me while I’ve been at a bar with her. In fact, one time a group of women asked her for permission.

Of course, I’m a male and don’t care, or we just laugh.

Granted I never feel “threatened or overpowered” which somehow makes it ok.

hm, does your wife often dress up as Magic Mike and Frankenfurter? Maybe you were "asking" for it by your dress, or your behavior, when your wife wasn't "asking" for it (many women learn to put out vibes which which communicate do not f- with me).

You remind me a little of my uncle. He has gotten into many many fights, has even put someone in the hospital, but according to him he's never "started" a fight in his life. I guess he's just unlucky that trouble just comes to him.

I'm glad that you acknowledged that when you had women grabbing at you, you did not feel threatened or overpowered. That if you wanted, you could tell them to stop, or walk away without further consequences. That's a difference. I do find it odd that you have had 20-30 women grabbing at your crotch, while your wife (according to you) has had no untoward encounters, but I guess that's another good argument to use statistics rather than individual anecdotes since people vary. 

[RyanAtTanagra]

I didn’t answer your question because I am not a “normal” person in that regard, so while I can understand how others may feel, I can’t personally related.

So you can't relate to the very different world from yours in which women live, but you are still saying that the way they behave to keep themselves safe is not "ok"?

[use2betrix]

I didn’t answer your question because I am not a “normal” person in that regard, so while I can understand how others may feel, I can’t personally related. I have been in more physical altercations with strangers than I can count off hand (although I have never started the physical altercation.) Growing up wrestling my entire life in one of the strongest wrestling states of the nation, I feel very comfortable in those situations, and knowing my background, I’m not any more concerned if someone is 250 lbs vs 150 lbs. To add to that, I’ve maintained amazing physical shape from 14 - now (31) and am mentally as strong as ever.

So again - I wasn’t avoiding your question because I didn’t want to answer, but mostly just because I am unable to personally understand the feeling. Maybe if you were to say a 500lb grizzly bear instead of another person I could understand.

So you grew up learning how to wrestle and you're a prize physical specimen.  Great.

Women grew up being told that some portion of the male population, a portion they have no way to identify, is going to try to rape them.

They also grew up knowing that if they did anything "wrong" (wearing a short skirt, not watching their drinks, staying out late etc.), they would likely be categorized as a "bad girl" or "stupid" and blamed for their own rape.

That's the key difference, here.

Toque.

I was answering the question (asked multiple times) based on my own personal experience. Nothing less, nothing more. I ignored it the first time because my personal experience is not relative to the topic.

On the topic of sexual harassment. It is odd that for many years I’ve dressed up as Frank N Furter or Magic Mike for Halloween and have had my ass/crotch grabbed more times than I can recall by random women at bars. Easily 20-30 times over the years. It’s happened before even not dressed in a provocative costume.

My wife, a beautiful, fit, young Hispanic woman, has never had that happen to her a single time in our 7+ years together. To my knowledge, it’s never happened to her. It’s happened to me while I’ve been at a bar with her. In fact, one time a group of women asked her for permission.

Of course, I’m a male and don’t care, or we just laugh.

Granted I never feel “threatened or overpowered” which somehow makes it ok.

hm, does your wife often dress up as Magic Mike and Frankenfurter? Maybe you were "asking" for it by your dress, or your behavior, when your wife wasn't "asking" for it (many women learn to put out vibes which which communicate do not f- with me).

You remind me a little of my uncle. He has gotten into many many fights, has even put someone in the hospital, but according to him he's never "started" a fight in his life. I guess he's just unlucky that trouble just comes to him.

I'm glad that you acknowledged that when you had women grabbing at you, you did not feel threatened or overpowered. That if you wanted, you could tell them to stop, or walk away without further consequences. That's a difference. I do find it odd that you have had 20-30 women grabbing at your crotch, while your wife (according to you) has had no untoward encounters, but I guess that's another good argument to use statistics rather than individual anecdotes since people vary.

This is just trolling. You are making a lot of insinuations on things I haven’t even remotely alluded to in ANY of my posts in this thread or any other, because I simply don’t agree with what you are stating.

I have made my statement clear that while I can “understand” while some people may treat others a certain way because their gender (or race) for that matter. I don’t think that it is fair to treat others that way.

That’s all I’ve said, no more, no less. Read into it all you want.. Can only imagine some of the women here being in management positions, not hiring men because they are more likely to be sexually harassed by them, so they need to keep them out of the workplace. Basically that is the next step down this line, and is seemingly viewed as ok by many here.

No more posting for me in this thread, it’s going into a direction that is no longer productive and I’m not going to waste my time discussing these made up insinuations that add no value.

[diapasoun]

Granted I never feel “threatened or overpowered” which somehow makes it ok.

It's not okay. I am a rabid af feminist and I want to tell you that it's not okay. It's not okay for anyone to be sexually assaulted, ever, and someone grabbing your crotch without your permission/desire is sexual assault. You may not have been afraid, or may have laughed, but it sounds to me like it certainly made you uncomfortable -- and it's not okay for anyone to do that to someone, regardless of the genders involved.

Yes, it's worse if someone is afraid they're going to be overpowered. Kinda obviously, there, I think. But it's still not okay for it to happen to someone who's not afraid of that.

I don't agree with you on most of what you've said in this thread, use2betrix, but that doesn't mean that you weren't assaulted when someone grabbed you without permission.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

This is an interesting point, at least to me, probably because I enjoy general questions based off of principles. I'm probably not going to articulate this well, but here goes:

I 100% understand that I don't understand what it's like to be in the situation many women here are describing. I have no moral qualms with women doing the things talked about and, in fact for what it's worth would encourage my wife to be cognizant of these situations.

That being said, it does sort of feel like an aspect of discrimination if it's used where a woman goes to the other side of the road to avoid a man at night or whatever. Again, I want my wife to be cautious and am glad if she does that if she feels the need. It does feel, though, like the stereotypical story about a person going to get money out of an ATM, seeing a minority and not doing it until they leave or whatnot. My question to everyone is, what is the difference if this perspective were taken for any particular group, minority or whatever, where statistics could show that they were more likely to commit this kind of crime in a situation you're in? Would the argument be that the statistics were skewed, and enforcement is unfair? Would it be that comparatively speaking, the overwhelming preponderance of crimes discussed against women are committed by men compared to less clear cut statistics in other applications? Would it be that the crimes against women are more heinous (sexual assault compared to robbery in my example) and therefore more worthy of being practical and "discriminating" versus holding to some principle?

Several apply in my head. In the end, I am not afraid to be hypocritcal :) especially when my family's safety is involved, so I'm not really bothered by it, but I do think it's worth a bit of thought process about it.

[GuitarStv]

This is an interesting point, at least to me, probably because I enjoy general questions based off of principles. I'm probably not going to articulate this well, but here goes:

I 100% understand that I don't understand what it's like to be in the situation many women here are describing. I have no moral qualms with women doing the things talked about and, in fact for what it's worth would encourage my wife to be cognizant of these situations.

That being said, it does sort of feel like an aspect of discrimination if it's used where a woman goes to the other side of the road to avoid a man at night or whatever. Again, I want my wife to be cautious and am glad if she does that if she feels the need. It does feel, though, like the stereotypical story about a person going to get money out of an ATM, seeing a minority and not doing it until they leave or whatnot. My question to everyone is, what is the difference if this perspective were taken for any particular group, minority or whatever, where statistics could show that they were more likely to commit this kind of crime in a situation you're in? Would the argument be that the statistics were skewed, and enforcement is unfair? Would it be that comparatively speaking, the overwhelming preponderance of crimes discussed against women are committed by men compared to less clear cut statistics in other applications? Would it be that the crimes against women are more heinous (sexual assault compared to robbery in my example) and therefore more worthy of being practical and "discriminating" versus holding to some principle?

Several apply in my head. In the end, I am not afraid to be hypocritcal :) especially when my family's safety is involved, so I'm not really bothered by it, but I do think it's worth a bit of thought process about it.

I mentioned up thread in a post . . . but men are physically stronger at the same weight, and typically larger than women.  Context therefore matters a lot.

A woman who chooses not to use an ATM late at night until a big guy is gone seems pretty reasonable to me.  A woman not using an ATM late at night if a guy who is a foot shorter and 50-60lbs lighter than her is there would seem a bit sexist.

[sisto]

Wow this thread sure did seem to go awry. I too am a female engineer. I agree things are definitely situational, but to me it boils down to respect and courtesy. At work I hold the door open for other people all the time. I will even pick up my pace a bit to get there first to get the door. I have had a few experiences where men did not want to go through the door first and insisted that I go first. What ever, no big deal, I just go first. If there is other blatant behavior or microinequities involved I may have an issue, but I have not really experienced this. I have also had a few conversations around it with some male coworkers. They acknowledged that it's I mutual respect thing and with some of them I've learned to take turns to make them more comfortable. If people are a ways behind me I just go through the door, but if they are close it gets the extra push or held. If someone is carrying something or in some way impaired I will make extra effort to get the door.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

This is an interesting point, at least to me, probably because I enjoy general questions based off of principles. I'm probably not going to articulate this well, but here goes:

I 100% understand that I don't understand what it's like to be in the situation many women here are describing. I have no moral qualms with women doing the things talked about and, in fact for what it's worth would encourage my wife to be cognizant of these situations.

That being said, it does sort of feel like an aspect of discrimination if it's used where a woman goes to the other side of the road to avoid a man at night or whatever. Again, I want my wife to be cautious and am glad if she does that if she feels the need. It does feel, though, like the stereotypical story about a person going to get money out of an ATM, seeing a minority and not doing it until they leave or whatnot. My question to everyone is, what is the difference if this perspective were taken for any particular group, minority or whatever, where statistics could show that they were more likely to commit this kind of crime in a situation you're in? Would the argument be that the statistics were skewed, and enforcement is unfair? Would it be that comparatively speaking, the overwhelming preponderance of crimes discussed against women are committed by men compared to less clear cut statistics in other applications? Would it be that the crimes against women are more heinous (sexual assault compared to robbery in my example) and therefore more worthy of being practical and "discriminating" versus holding to some principle?

Several apply in my head. In the end, I am not afraid to be hypocritcal :) especially when my family's safety is involved, so I'm not really bothered by it, but I do think it's worth a bit of thought process about it.

I mentioned up thread in a post . . . but men are physically stronger at the same weight, and typically larger than women.  Context therefore matters a lot.

A woman who chooses not to use an ATM late at night until a big guy is gone seems pretty reasonable to me.  A woman not using an ATM late at night if a guy who is a foot shorter and 50-60lbs lighter than her is there would seem a bit sexist.

That's a fair point that I should have acknowledged. I'm curious if others use that rationale, including if they agree that with your last statement if size is not applicable.

[partgypsy]

Use, I was not trolling you.

I think that the things people in reality use to make decisions is a little more fine-grained than male/female, black/white. for example yes if I am by myself and there is a guy who is just a college student, or an elderly man or people otherwise seeming to be just going about their business yeah I'd probably not change my behavior. I've lived in the city and you just meet tons and tons of people and from that yeah generalizations are made. For me socio-economic indicators are weighed a lot more than black/white. I'd be less likely to get in an elevator with a young white guy who looks like they might do drugs, than a middle-aged whitecollar black guy. YES I know these are all generalizations and generalizations can be wrong, but it's just what I and I'm sure a lot of people do. 

Here's an example. In my 20's we went to a party held by my sister's boyfriend at the time, we all lived in the same apartment building. I was fine with everyone there (all white 20-something people) except for one guy. As we left to get some more beer for the party, I confided in her I did not like that one guy, he was giving me a bad vibe. My sister said she didn't know what I was talking about, they are all friends of her boyfriend and fine. anyways by the end of the evening, he did make crappy sexist comments, and after we got home, my sister realized her wallet was stolen out of her purse. He had taken it and then when we got his contact information, he said he would give it back, if we came to meet him to return it. I (and she) were like -hell no. Her boyfriend gave him hell and was able to the wallet (sans money) back. Boyfriend profusely apologized. Apparently, the guy was someone he barely knew though work who asked to come to the party. He also turned out to be a felon with a long rap sheet.
And for some levity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl_iAHHfUdw