Author Topic: Confederate Flag Discussion  (Read 35494 times)

davisgang90

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2015, 05:23:27 AM »
Should we force Oklahoma to change the name of the state?  It is Choctaw for "the red people".  How offensive.

DoubleDown

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2015, 08:19:38 AM »
I don't get how people seem surprised that others find certain names and symbols offensive, and that calling for change is somehow misguided. The meaning of language and symbols changes over time. Would someone create a pro team named the Detroit Niggers? The Seattle Coloreds? Or call an autistic child a retard or an MR? Or someone in a wheelchair a cripple? Those names might not have been considered offensive 50 or 100 years ago, but they sure as hell are now. Redskins is in the same vein, say a majority of the people to whom the name is being applied.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2015, 09:20:06 AM »
... just like the majority of people think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol -- it's definitely past time to retire it...


When I googled "is the confederate flag racist" this is what I get:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/247173-poll-most-dont-think-confederate-flag-racist
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/01/can-we-all-agree-that-the-confederate-flag-is-racist-apparently-not-according-to-poll/
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/poll-confederate-flag-symbol-of-pride-or-racism-119675.html

Entirely possible all those links are referencing the same poll, don't be mislead by quantity, it's just the first 4 that popped up.
In order to have a poll show that the majority think it is racist you have to limit your poll, for example, to democrats:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/184040/democrats-views-confederate-flag-increasingly-negative.aspx

So if being in the majority is necessary to get your way, then the confederate flag is not racist.  Protecting the right of the minority to be heard is a critically important part of what makes this country great, so I'll go with the majority that the flag is not racist (which was my gut instinct, as when I think about it the first ten things that come up have nothing to do with race), but absolutely agree that if you think it is, you are entitled to speak up.

What I don't like about taking down the flag, is that it strikes me as censorship more than anything else.  That it's been couched in other things to cover that up, and the party that is ostensibly most in favor of free speech is celebrating, is troubling.

I found this site:

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist

Which I'm either never visiting again or quitting my job to spend all my time on.  I wish I could find something else I enjoyed more than arguing on the internet.

davisgang90

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2015, 10:01:22 AM »
I don't get how people seem surprised that others find certain names and symbols offensive, and that calling for change is somehow misguided. The meaning of language and symbols changes over time. Would someone create a pro team named the Detroit Niggers? The Seattle Coloreds? Or call an autistic child a retard or an MR? Or someone in a wheelchair a cripple? Those names might not have been considered offensive 50 or 100 years ago, but they sure as hell are now. Redskins is in the same vein, say a majority of the people to whom the name is being applied.
Just like calling African Americans "colored".  Unless we are talking about the NAACP of course.

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2015, 02:53:44 PM »
... just like the majority of people think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol -- it's definitely past time to retire it...


When I googled "is the confederate flag racist" this is what I get:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/247173-poll-most-dont-think-confederate-flag-racist
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/01/can-we-all-agree-that-the-confederate-flag-is-racist-apparently-not-according-to-poll/
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/poll-confederate-flag-symbol-of-pride-or-racism-119675.html

Entirely possible all those links are referencing the same poll, don't be mislead by quantity, it's just the first 4 that popped up.
In order to have a poll show that the majority think it is racist you have to limit your poll, for example, to democrats:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/184040/democrats-views-confederate-flag-increasingly-negative.aspx

So if being in the majority is necessary to get your way, then the confederate flag is not racist.  Protecting the right of the minority to be heard is a critically important part of what makes this country great, so I'll go with the majority that the flag is not racist (which was my gut instinct, as when I think about it the first ten things that come up have nothing to do with race), but absolutely agree that if you think it is, you are entitled to speak up.

What I don't like about taking down the flag, is that it strikes me as censorship more than anything else.  That it's been couched in other things to cover that up, and the party that is ostensibly most in favor of free speech is celebrating, is troubling.

I found this site:

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist

Which I'm either never visiting again or quitting my job to spend all my time on.  I wish I could find something else I enjoyed more than arguing on the internet.

This whole string is too long to continue to debate in detail (well, without giving up my day job haha), but I do note that in the surveys you gave the links to, where race was given, the majority of black people definitely agreed the flag was a symbol of racism.  Frankly - and I have to be blunt here - I wouldn't give one rat's patoot what some white southern dude has to say about whether he thinks the flag denotes racism.  It is those on the receiving end of the atrocities' opinion that I would look to in order to get a bead on whether it's offensive or not.  I agree, you have the right as an individual to be as offensive as you want, but drawing the line at government being offensive (deliberately offensive, as they have the information showing what black people think of the flag).  You can call it censorship, but I call it not being a dick.



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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2015, 01:41:04 PM »

Meanwhile, 95%+ of Native Americans feel it's a racist name.


That's a fake statistic.  I literally have skin with a red tint, and I'm far from full-blooded.  It's as accurate a statement as saying an African American is "black".  I, personally, know of not one person who gives a damn what a football team in Washington state may call themselves; and I am certain my small data sample is more representative than whatever your's may be.

Yeah, I almost literally pulled that statistic out of my ass, but I knew that a majority of Native Americans who have been asked say they think the name is racist. Here's some actual polling that shows 67% of Native Americans find the Redskins name to be racist. My point anyway was not whether it's 95% or 67% or even 10 or 20%. My point is that if even a sizable minority find a name you are calling them offensive, it's probably best to use another name they don't find offensive. Once you're into majority territory -- just like the majority of people think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol -- it's definitely past time to retire it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lindseyadler/native-americans-offended-by-racial-slur#.nup8mXXP8D
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/05/15/the-redskins-poll-bill-oreilly-thought-didnt-ex/203661
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/04/03/washington-nfl-team-name-debate

I stumbled across a couple articles that contest the claim that a majority of Native Americans find the name of the Washington Redskins to be a racist slur.  So I came back here to check out your references, which I didn't bother to do so earlier.  They are all opinion pieces, with next to zero factual credibility.  Granted, I can't find anything except opinion pieces online,and none  that could be considered a scientific poll on this question; almost everything is a biased report for one side or another.  Part of the problem is how the question is asked; as in "Is the term "redskin" as applied to Native Americans a racist word?" compared to "Do you consider the Washington Redskins to be an offensive name for a football team?".  Part of the problem is the polled group itself, as the question becomes, what defines 'Native American' as compared to the general population?  Do you have to have a majority native bloodline, or actually live on an official Indian Reserve?  Or does your opinion matter if you are only one-quarter or one-eighth native?  (The legal breaking point is one-eighth for claiming federal benefits, BTW.  A fact that I am aware because I happen to be one-eighth Cherokee.)  If mixed people are included in the polling, are their opinions taken at parity to full natives?  Or do they count only based upon their mix ratios?  The facts are that a whole lot of the American "white" population, and a not-insignificant minority of the black population, have native american bloodlines.  True native bloodlines are the real minority these days.  Finally, is culture or genetics the dominate factor in "native american"; because someone like myself has next to zero exposure to a native culture, as even my great-grandmother was a christian convert at a young age, and no one in my family history suffered through the Trail of Tears.  Mostly because my ancestors were open to cultural assimulation, whereas others were not.

In short, every poll on this question has faults, and the answer cannot be determined in any definative way.  Thus, all public arguments regarding the naming of sports teams, and the Washington Redskins in particular, is based upon an ideology that favors one perspective or the other.

And this conversation has actually compelled me to look at myself hard in the mirror, to see if I have any native features.  The fact is that I do, but they are subtle.  For starters, I tan very easily, but of a slightly different hue than a caucasian, as there seems to be more of an orange component to it.  I suspect that most people would look at my arms, and if they thought about it at all, would assume that I'm slightly sunburned; but I always look like this.  Furthermore, the palms of my hands never tan (which I presume is typical) but my hands have an obviously red color (not deep red, just red) marbled with more white-ish spots.  I've always though it was bizarre, because my siblings did not display these features.  Also, I have a shade of blue eyes that contains grey streaks, and that seems to be a fairly unique to native americans (the grey streaks, not the blue eyes; whom tend to be brown like everyone else).  I have been identified as part-native by exactly two people in my life, without any prior allusions, and both times was because I removed my glasses in a social situation and someone guessed I have a native background.  Literally no one has ever looked at my skin and guessed the same.

EDIT:  There is also the issue that there are actually two races of native Americans.  Typically, the tribes that originated East of the Mississippi River basin were non-nomadic farming tribes, who lived in longhouses instead of tipis.  These are the tribes that the stories of the Three Sisters come from, because maize doesn't grow well West of the Rocky Mountain range.  These Eastern tribes (Iriquois, Cherokee, Algonquin, etc) were those of the red-ish skin color.  Whereas the tribes West of the Mississippi River basin (Apache, Mohave, Lakota, etc.)  were more closely related to Hispanics, and had a darker skin tone.  Most of the Western tribes were nomadic, and had a habit of living in tipis.  These were the tribes that depended upon group hunting to survive, such as for the buffalo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longhouses_of_the_indigenous_peoples_of_North_America
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 04:49:48 PM by MoonShadow »

davisgang90

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #106 on: August 26, 2015, 07:16:39 AM »
And don't even get me started on the slavery issue.  American southerners flying the confederate flag fought and died for slavery a hundred years after most of the world had already outlawed slavery.  Then, as now, American's didn't seem very interested in what the rest of the world thought was morally correct.

The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

So, to hold this view I assume your history education ends about 70 years ago?  Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Pakistan .  .  . why do you think so many of the people you 'liberated' or are in the process of 'liberating' hate you so much for 'helping out everyone who asked'?

How are you squaring away the many brutal dictatorial regimes that had US support and backing during this time?  Saddam Hussein?  US backed.  Mobutu Seko?  US backed.  Emilio Medici?  US backed.  Augusto Pinochet?  US backed.  Ferdinand Marcos?  US backed.  Jean-Claude Duvalier?  US backed.  Osama bin Laden?  US backed.

Trying to whitewash 70 years of US history is a stupid tactic when you're talking with someone who wasn't born in the same jingoistic flag waving environment.
Speaking of whitewashing, you might want to review Canada's role in most of the "liberations" you listed above.  Canadian military was involved in many of them.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada#Cold_War_years

matchewed

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #107 on: August 26, 2015, 07:19:37 AM »
And don't even get me started on the slavery issue.  American southerners flying the confederate flag fought and died for slavery a hundred years after most of the world had already outlawed slavery.  Then, as now, American's didn't seem very interested in what the rest of the world thought was morally correct.

The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

So, to hold this view I assume your history education ends about 70 years ago?  Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Pakistan .  .  . why do you think so many of the people you 'liberated' or are in the process of 'liberating' hate you so much for 'helping out everyone who asked'?

How are you squaring away the many brutal dictatorial regimes that had US support and backing during this time?  Saddam Hussein?  US backed.  Mobutu Seko?  US backed.  Emilio Medici?  US backed.  Augusto Pinochet?  US backed.  Ferdinand Marcos?  US backed.  Jean-Claude Duvalier?  US backed.  Osama bin Laden?  US backed.

Trying to whitewash 70 years of US history is a stupid tactic when you're talking with someone who wasn't born in the same jingoistic flag waving environment.
Speaking of whitewashing, you might want to review Canada's role in most of the "liberations" you listed above.  Canadian military was involved in many of them.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada#Cold_War_years

Canada wasn't mentioned at all until you just brought it up. Red herring.

davisgang90

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #108 on: August 26, 2015, 01:19:54 PM »
And don't even get me started on the slavery issue.  American southerners flying the confederate flag fought and died for slavery a hundred years after most of the world had already outlawed slavery.  Then, as now, American's didn't seem very interested in what the rest of the world thought was morally correct.

The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

So, to hold this view I assume your history education ends about 70 years ago?  Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Pakistan .  .  . why do you think so many of the people you 'liberated' or are in the process of 'liberating' hate you so much for 'helping out everyone who asked'?

How are you squaring away the many brutal dictatorial regimes that had US support and backing during this time?  Saddam Hussein?  US backed.  Mobutu Seko?  US backed.  Emilio Medici?  US backed.  Augusto Pinochet?  US backed.  Ferdinand Marcos?  US backed.  Jean-Claude Duvalier?  US backed.  Osama bin Laden?  US backed.

Trying to whitewash 70 years of US history is a stupid tactic when you're talking with someone who wasn't born in the same jingoistic flag waving environment.
Speaking of whitewashing, you might want to review Canada's role in most of the "liberations" you listed above.  Canadian military was involved in many of them.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada#Cold_War_years

Canada wasn't mentioned at all until you just brought it up. Red herring.
Dude is from Canada and vents his spleen on US Jingoism fairly regularly.  So no red herring.

matchewed

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #109 on: August 26, 2015, 02:16:04 PM »
And don't even get me started on the slavery issue.  American southerners flying the confederate flag fought and died for slavery a hundred years after most of the world had already outlawed slavery.  Then, as now, American's didn't seem very interested in what the rest of the world thought was morally correct.

The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

So, to hold this view I assume your history education ends about 70 years ago?  Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Pakistan .  .  . why do you think so many of the people you 'liberated' or are in the process of 'liberating' hate you so much for 'helping out everyone who asked'?

How are you squaring away the many brutal dictatorial regimes that had US support and backing during this time?  Saddam Hussein?  US backed.  Mobutu Seko?  US backed.  Emilio Medici?  US backed.  Augusto Pinochet?  US backed.  Ferdinand Marcos?  US backed.  Jean-Claude Duvalier?  US backed.  Osama bin Laden?  US backed.

Trying to whitewash 70 years of US history is a stupid tactic when you're talking with someone who wasn't born in the same jingoistic flag waving environment.
Speaking of whitewashing, you might want to review Canada's role in most of the "liberations" you listed above.  Canadian military was involved in many of them.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada#Cold_War_years

Canada wasn't mentioned at all until you just brought it up. Red herring.
Dude is from Canada and vents his spleen on US Jingoism fairly regularly.  So no red herring.

Oh so it's an ad hominem then... just as useless of a comment. Why don't you try addressing what he said rather than Canada which still has nothing to do with what was said.

Bob W

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #110 on: August 26, 2015, 04:15:53 PM »
Just had a school meeting last night.  They are again forcing 8 year olds to pledge allegiance to the flag like it is some paramilitary indoctrination camp.  You can opt out but then they ostracize your kid.   http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/why-i-do-not-pledge-allegiance-to-the-flag

Thank God I  can explain to my child the pitfalls of blind allegiance and nationalism based on the longitude and latitude of your birth. 

Saw two confederate flags on a pick up again last night and a couple of more today.  Visited a client's home and they had one flying on the front porch.   It is pretty much a daily occurrence around here.   I live in the Midwest, not the south.  Grateful to live in a community where free speech is thought so highly of but not happy about the school indoctrination thing.   

By the way,  it hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet, but did you know that slavery is still alive and well in the US?    Yep it is.  Seems odd that so many folks are adamantly opposed to it but yet it continues in a legal and socially acceptable manner.

They call it the draft.  It is a funny little thing where just because you live somewhere you can be randomly selected and forced to go shoot people in foreign countries and then die there.   It is the ultimate slave labor force.   It would be difficult to enforce if everyone wasn't brainwashed and pledging to the flag everyday at school.  *   

So if you think the US flag is o.k.  but not the Confederate flag then does that mean you support slavery or not?  Or maybe you prefer the term "war?"  So if you pledge to the US flag doesn't that mean in fact you support war since the US is essentially a militaristic country?   If I am o.k. with the Confederate flag,  not o.k. with the US flag and not o.k with the draft and not o.k. with US wars what does that make me?

Hard for most people to wrap their heads around.   Huh?  What? That is crazy talk!  No, forcing people to be killed in wars isn't slavery!   Well you might just want to ask my friends who died in Viet Fucking Nam.   Oh yeah, lost that one too.  And it wasn't a war --- it was a military action. 

For me the flag = slavery/death thing isn't some distant thing generations ago.  It happened to my friends and almost happened to me.  Oh yeah,  I forgot to mention --- my friends who survived and were forced into battle and forced to kill other people were spit upon and shamed when they arrived home.   They felt lucky because they survived when so many of their friends died. 

Flag=nationalism=draft=slavery=death. 

*Do Lutheran's pledge to the US flag?  What about Amish and Mennonites because I really like the Mennonites?


matchewed

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #111 on: August 26, 2015, 04:29:39 PM »
And here I thought the last person was conscripted in 1972. You happen to know of an active draft that is happening right now? If not then your definition of slavery isn't exactly true as it isn't happening.

Also no one is saying America is a perfect place. To say that having eight year olds pledge allegiance to the flag is worse than a government building flying the flag of a group who seceded from said government over slavery is the same thing is a bit of false equivalency.

The question isn't should the American flag be raised at government buildings but should the Confederate flag?

sol

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #112 on: August 26, 2015, 04:33:55 PM »
Bob just hates all flags.  I'm not sure he hates America as much as he just hates the idea of nation states. 

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #113 on: August 26, 2015, 04:40:08 PM »
Bob just hates all flags.

I just imagined a Westburro Baptsit protestor with a t-shirt that said "Bob hates flags"


Quote
  I'm not sure he hates America as much as he just hates the idea of nation states.

I'm with him on that one.  The nation-state is a political concept that should have died with WW2.  Borders should really be imaginary lines on a map, but we can't get there in a world that looks like this one does.  It feels like nationalism is on the rise again.

Eric

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #114 on: August 26, 2015, 05:31:57 PM »
Bob just hates all flags.
I just imagined a Westburro Baptsit protestor with a t-shirt that said "Bob hates flags"

That made me laugh out loud.

beltim

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #115 on: August 26, 2015, 05:47:12 PM »
Bob just hates all flags.
I just imagined a Westburro Baptsit protestor with a t-shirt that said "Bob hates flags"

That made me laugh out loud.

Ditto.  Well played, MoonShadow.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2015, 05:58:57 PM »
Bob just hates all flags.
I just imagined a Westburro Baptsit protestor with a t-shirt that said "Bob hates flags"

That made me laugh out loud.

Ditto.  Well played, MoonShadow.

:)

GuitarStv

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2015, 06:17:05 AM »
And don't even get me started on the slavery issue.  American southerners flying the confederate flag fought and died for slavery a hundred years after most of the world had already outlawed slavery.  Then, as now, American's didn't seem very interested in what the rest of the world thought was morally correct.

The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

So, to hold this view I assume your history education ends about 70 years ago?  Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Pakistan .  .  . why do you think so many of the people you 'liberated' or are in the process of 'liberating' hate you so much for 'helping out everyone who asked'?

How are you squaring away the many brutal dictatorial regimes that had US support and backing during this time?  Saddam Hussein?  US backed.  Mobutu Seko?  US backed.  Emilio Medici?  US backed.  Augusto Pinochet?  US backed.  Ferdinand Marcos?  US backed.  Jean-Claude Duvalier?  US backed.  Osama bin Laden?  US backed.

Trying to whitewash 70 years of US history is a stupid tactic when you're talking with someone who wasn't born in the same jingoistic flag waving environment.
Speaking of whitewashing, you might want to review Canada's role in most of the "liberations" you listed above.  Canadian military was involved in many of them.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada#Cold_War_years

Canada wasn't mentioned at all until you just brought it up. Red herring.
Dude is from Canada and vents his spleen on US Jingoism fairly regularly.  So no red herring.

If you ever find me claiming that the rest of the world owes Canada a debt because of how awesome our country is, please step in to correct me.  Our country absolutely has made mistakes and mis-steps.  Every country has.  There seems to be a common cultural practice of whitewashing all these missteps and claiming greatness in people from the US, which I haven't found when discussing issues with people from other countries.  It's why I addressed the (obviously false) comment that was made.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2015, 11:47:00 AM »
Well, actually, you weren't addressing an obviously false comment, you were making some assumptions about me based on some prejudices you have, as you just stated.  Using the idea that if anyone says anything about something without saying everything, they are "whitewashing" over things.  Because to you, it doesn't make sense to understand the whole picture, and arrive at a conclusion different from yours. 

If they hold a different opinion from you they must just be unaware or ignoring things, instead of accepting those things and still not believing as you do.


If you ever find me claiming that the rest of the world owes Canada a debt because of how awesome our country is, please step in to correct me.  Our country absolutely has made mistakes and mis-steps.  Every country has.  There seems to be a common cultural practice of whitewashing all these missteps and claiming greatness in people from the US, which I haven't found when discussing issues with people from other countries.  It's why I addressed the (obviously false) comment that was made.

In my comment (which was worded to be inflammatory, granted) I did not claim the rest of the world owes the US a debt.  I was addressing the "after most of the world" comment, because I felt it overstates the historical context greatly, given that plenty of people in the world now still live in conditions not all that better than slavery, and it was even worse during that time period.  It's exasperating to me to see people within the US and abroad who derive fantastic benefits from our efforts at literally no cost to them (well, people within the US get to share the tax burden with me).

I object to the idea that Americans then or now are somehow morally deficient with respect to the rest of the world.  The timeline on freedom and the net effect on the general human condition of capitalism are records that speak for themselves, even if you include the harmful side effects.  There is no definition of morality that could be used in which Americans, weighed against the rest of the world, come up short.

Our northernmost state does from time to time like to get judgmental, and we just roll our eyes.  Wouldn't it be nice to be nestled safe along the border of the most powerful country and economy the world has ever seen?

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2015, 12:00:08 PM »
Our northernmost state does from time to time like to get judgmental, and we just roll our eyes. 

Although we also, sometimes, joke about invasions...


Russ

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2015, 12:25:26 PM »
the most powerful country and economy the world has ever seen

[citation needed]

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2015, 01:56:31 PM »
The US has done plenty of good.  Some parts of the world are better off because of you.  You've also worked very hard to damage that reputation in recent years, and it's the source of much of the animosity being directed towards your country these days.  On balance, it's tough to argue that the US has made the world a better place in the past 50 years.

I don't know.. I would say facilitating the end of the USSR and the reunification of Germany were both net positives for the world.  Kuwait seems pretty thankful that we led the coalition to remove the Iraqi invaders from their country.  The world overall seems pretty thankful for things like the internet and American technology, which have helped empower oppressed people.

If you had said the past 15 years instead of the past 50 I would find it easier to agree with you.  Americans were a little worked up after 9/11 and made some rash decisions to invade countries without thinking about how that would destabilize the Middle East and the greater world.  Unfortunately, those wars can't be undone.  One of the main reasons Obama was elected was to change the course of our foreign policy as many Americans woke up to the mistakes that were being made.

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2015, 02:58:07 PM »
Well, actually, you weren't addressing an obviously false comment, you were making some assumptions about me based on some prejudices you have, as you just stated.  Using the idea that if anyone says anything about something without saying everything, they are "whitewashing" over things.  Because to you, it doesn't make sense to understand the whole picture, and arrive at a conclusion different from yours. 

If they hold a different opinion from you they must just be unaware or ignoring things, instead of accepting those things and still not believing as you do.

The obviously untrue comment was:
Quote
The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

- The entire world doesn't owe their freedom from slavery to the actions of the US.
- The US doesn't help everyone who asked (and in many instances has supported the brutal dictatorial regimes you claimed credit for freeing people from).

If you have a source to argue against either of the above statements, I'll apologize.  I didn't need to make any assumptions about you, you proved my assumptions by making the comment.



I object to the idea that Americans then or now are somehow morally deficient with respect to the rest of the world.  The timeline on freedom and the net effect on the general human condition of capitalism are records that speak for themselves, even if you include the harmful side effects.  There is no definition of morality that could be used in which Americans, weighed against the rest of the world, come up short.

What definition of morality do you follow where state sanctioned kidnapping and torture, and routine imprisonment of innocents without due process doesn't come up short?  That's not exactly a moral grey area.



The US has done plenty of good.  Some parts of the world are better off because of you.  You've also worked very hard to damage that reputation in recent years, and it's the source of much of the animosity being directed towards your country these days.  On balance, it's tough to argue that the US has made the world a better place in the past 50 years.

I don't know.. I would say facilitating the end of the USSR and the reunification of Germany were both net positives for the world.  Kuwait seems pretty thankful that we led the coalition to remove the Iraqi invaders from their country.  The world overall seems pretty thankful for things like the internet and American technology, which have helped empower oppressed people.

If you had said the past 15 years instead of the past 50 I would find it easier to agree with you.  Americans were a little worked up after 9/11 and made some rash decisions to invade countries without thinking about how that would destabilize the Middle East and the greater world.  Unfortunately, those wars can't be undone.  One of the main reasons Obama was elected was to change the course of our foreign policy as many Americans woke up to the mistakes that were being made.

What did the US do that caused the outright collapse of the USSR?

As far as Iraq . . . you've been destabilizing the Middle East for ages.  Remember when you trained and armed Iraq with biological weapons (hint, this was before Kuwait)?  Regan provided them with billions of dollars, weapons, and even personnel.  Cleaning up a mess that you created, is that really something that the world needs to be thankful for?

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2015, 03:00:36 PM »
I live in Alabama but am from a very non-Southern place. My $.02:

It's 100% okay for private citizens to display the flag on their person or their property (house, car, etc) for whatever reason. Some have good reasons and some don't, but it's not my concern.

Most state and local governments who fly this flag began doing so in the 1960s as a direct response to the civil rights movement, just like the private citizens did. Due to the circumstances around its resurgence, it projects hostility toward much of the citizenry and is inappropriate for official use.

It's up to private companies to set policy about this symbol and its use on their private property, and it's up to private citizens to patronize those companies (or not) based on such decisions.

I was originally bothered by the case of employees being terminated for displaying the flag at work, but found the arguments about companies' rights compelling, and eventually accepted that they were within their rights to set and enforce workplace policy. Given the low threshold for workplace violence in this part of the country, it's probably wise.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2015, 04:04:38 PM »

What did the US do that caused the outright collapse of the USSR?
The role of the United States, in particular, in the eventual collapse of the USSR is a matter of much debate; but I'd say it was a subtle influence.  The US was the superpower that represented the opposite of soviet command & control in the eyes of pretty much the entire world.  How true that actually was is also debatable, but the US did present a propaganda problem to the USSR.  They would preach to their own children that "the West" was inhumane & prone to class conflicts, yet the quality of life (as well as the quality of US products & exported media/culture) stood in stark contrast to how the typical working class family in the USSR lived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll_and_the_fall_of_communism

Of course, this wasn't a deliberate act on part of the US government.  Just the profit motives of artists and smugglers doing the capitalist thing.

Quote
As far as Iraq . . . you've been destabilizing the Middle East for ages.

They started it....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

Poorman

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2015, 05:04:20 PM »
What did the US do that caused the outright collapse of the USSR?

As far as Iraq . . . you've been destabilizing the Middle East for ages.  Remember when you trained and armed Iraq with biological weapons (hint, this was before Kuwait)?  Regan provided them with billions of dollars, weapons, and even personnel.  Cleaning up a mess that you created, is that really something that the world needs to be thankful for?

You don't think the economic, military, and political pressure applied by the United States had something to do with the collapse?  I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.  If they had been allowed to continue expanding communism unchecked, we would be living in a much different world today (and not a better one, IMO).

Making buddies with Saddam was a really bad idea in hindsight, but at the time Iran was seen as more dangerous.  They had their eyes on Iraqi, Kuwaiti, and Saudi oil, so it would have been a similarly disastrous outcome, only with a different dictator leading the charge.  Iran wanted full control of the Middle East and they still do, so keeping them in check provided relative stability until 2003, when we stupidly took Saddam out.  Also, I don't regard the span of time from the mid-80's until now as ages.  LOL..

GuitarStv

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #126 on: August 28, 2015, 07:13:21 AM »
What did the US do that caused the outright collapse of the USSR?

As far as Iraq . . . you've been destabilizing the Middle East for ages.  Remember when you trained and armed Iraq with biological weapons (hint, this was before Kuwait)?  Regan provided them with billions of dollars, weapons, and even personnel.  Cleaning up a mess that you created, is that really something that the world needs to be thankful for?

You don't think the economic, military, and political pressure applied by the United States had something to do with the collapse?  I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.  If they had been allowed to continue expanding communism unchecked, we would be living in a much different world today (and not a better one, IMO).

The dangers of 'expanding communism' were a little oversold to Americans.  While the US may have been a factor in the dissolution of the USSR, it was the people who lived in the soviet union who were largely responsible for it's collapse.  Revolutions in Poland, Hungary, East Germany, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Romania, etc.  You could argue that Regan's actions actually slowed the dissolution of the USSR.

Communism doesn't really work in practice.  Given a long enough time frame, it pisses people off enough that they will revolt.

Making buddies with Saddam was a really bad idea in hindsight, but at the time Iran was seen as more dangerous.  They had their eyes on Iraqi, Kuwaiti, and Saudi oil, so it would have been a similarly disastrous outcome, only with a different dictator leading the charge.  Iran wanted full control of the Middle East and they still do, so keeping them in check provided relative stability until 2003, when we stupidly took Saddam out.  Also, I don't regard the span of time from the mid-80's until now as ages.  LOL..

You're arguing the same point that I made further up thread.  The US often goes into places and does stuff with good intentions, but poor understanding of a situation.  Then you end up doing more harm than good.  Arming Saddam was a bad idea.  Arming and training Osama was a bad idea.  Supporting the dictatorship of the Shah in Iran was a bad idea.  Pushing for the creation of Israel in the middle east in the 40s was a bad idea.

Why was Iran seen as dangerous?  When talking about the US destabilizing the Middle East it goes back an awful lot further than the mid-80s.  The CIA in the 50s spent millions of dollars to destabilize Iran and install a dictator (the Shah).  In the 60s this turned into billions of dollars to keep propping the guy up.  In the 70s the Iranians had a revolt and threw off their US backed dictator, installing the Ayatollah.  Who really hated the US for what you did.  So, you created a reason to be afraid of Iran, then needed to support Iraq to try to fix your mistake.  Then needed to take out the leader of Iraq to fix that mistake.  Now you're dealing with ISIS . . . because you needed to fix the Iraq mistake.  So yeah . . . destabilizing the area for ages.  Certainly this didn't start in the mid 80s as you appear to believe.




The fact that the two items brought up that were intended to show how much good the US has done for the world in the past 50 years are both pretty shaky when you actually think about them is rather telling.

Left

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #127 on: August 28, 2015, 07:16:47 AM »
I don't really mind the confederate flag itself... or what people think they stood for...

I just don't like it being waved around on govt property just because they lost the war... what other group gets to lose a war and still fly their flag over the winning side's state/national landmarks?

zephyr911

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #128 on: August 28, 2015, 08:33:11 AM »
I don't really mind the confederate flag itself... or what people think they stood for...

I just don't like it being waved around on govt property just because they lost the war... what other group gets to lose a war and still fly their flag over the winning side's state/national landmarks?
Just a point of order: it's not because they lost the war, it's because of the civil rights movement.

The battle flag's popularity has waxed and waned throughout the years since the civil war, and one of the low points was before the civil rights movement. When southern African-Americans demanded the rights to which they had been entitled all along, but had been systematically denied, both through Jim Crow laws and less official means such as intimidation and harassment, the flag suddenly experienced a massive resurgence in popularity among private citizens, and was also incorporated into some state flags and other government displays. The message was clear: "stay down, or else".

If South Carolina's choice to adopt the flag in the 1960s had been about anything else, they might have had a principled argument for keeping it, but I think they finally realized it was time to let go.

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #129 on: August 28, 2015, 10:48:01 AM »
Just had a school meeting last night.  They are again forcing 8 year olds to pledge allegiance to the flag like it is some paramilitary indoctrination camp.  You can opt out but then they ostracize your kid.   http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/why-i-do-not-pledge-allegiance-to-the-flag

What's up with this? My kid's school does it to at every Friday gathering in the gym. The principal said students can opt out, mostly for religious reasons, but you would have to talk with her about it. Do other states do this too? I know Bob and I both live in Missouri.

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #130 on: August 28, 2015, 10:50:52 AM »
Just had a school meeting last night.  They are again forcing 8 year olds to pledge allegiance to the flag like it is some paramilitary indoctrination camp.  You can opt out but then they ostracize your kid.   http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/why-i-do-not-pledge-allegiance-to-the-flag

What's up with this? My kid's school does it to at every Friday gathering in the gym. The principal said students can opt out, mostly for religious reasons, but you would have to talk with her about it. Do other states do this too? I know Bob and I both live in Missouri.
Legally, the child does not have to have a parent opt them out.  They can, per their legal rights decided right then and there, nope not doing it.  That said, without prior approval they still have to be supervised and therefore their only choice is to sit quietly.  They can read, but that often upset teachers.  :)

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #131 on: August 28, 2015, 01:56:30 PM »
Communism doesn't really work in practice.  Given a long enough time frame, it pisses people off enough that they will revolt.

This is simply your opinion but not one backed by much historical evidence.  Many types of governments have had revolts due to their citizens being pissed off.  Very few of them were communist.  The USSR is an outlier in that protests against their communist dictators actually worked.  Gorbachev could have suppressed these protests with force and in fact many of the Communist party were extremely upset that he didn't.  A lot of his willingness to pursue peaceful options was due to the diplomacy and mutual respect that Reagan was able to establish with him.  He was no longer worried about appearing "weak" to the West because he believed that Reagan was committed to avoiding nuclear holocaust. 

Reagan also caught a lot of hell from his own party for "caving" to the communists at that time.  A lot of Republicans didn't like the diplomatic route, and wanted to show strength instead.

Certainly this didn't start in the mid 80s as you appear to believe.

The fact that the two items brought up that were intended to show how much good the US has done for the world in the past 50 years are both pretty shaky when you actually think about them is rather telling.

You were the one that brought up the 80's as an example from ages ago.  It appears as though you're trying to rewrite this thread as you've done with history.

I also brought up more than two examples and you are conveniently ignoring the last.  Hmm.. Gee wonder why?  Cat got the tongue?

SK Joyous

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #132 on: August 28, 2015, 02:31:12 PM »

Our northernmost state does from time to time like to get judgmental, and we just roll our eyes.  Wouldn't it be nice to be nestled safe along the border of the most powerful country and economy the world has ever seen?

Are you....are you serious? First of all, don't even start with that 'Canada is another U.S. State' baiting BS, it's not even close, there are far more differences between Canada and the U.S. than between even the most disparate of your States.  Also, no actually, it is not always nice to be next door to the U.S.  It is downright uncomfortable at times (and this is from someone who likes the U.S. - I generally like the people and the places and various other cultural aspects).  For example, in trade agreements and terms, the U.S. is a bully that cheats and then ends up getting their way, which costs us a LOT of money that we don't lose when dealing with other countries who seem able to stick to the terms of the trade agreements (see: softwood lumber, Country of Origin Labeling for beef, etc).  It's also unpleasant to listen to the pretty constant stream of how the U.S. is great at everything, and that Canada is some insignificant gnat that doesn't matter (look at the belittling of our universal health care system that happened from the opponents of Obamacare). 

Yet here we are, offering help whenever we're able - on 9/11 it was Canadians from coast to coast offering help, accommodation, clothing, support and anything else we could think of to help our neighbours who were stranded here or needed help just across the border, we've assisted in many of the U.S. military campaigns (although not all, because we are our own country), and heck, we sent an urban search and rescue team to New Orleans so quickly, they arrived on August 31st!

We have an undefended border not because the U.S. is powerful, but because there is mutual respect for each other's cultures and laws, and because Canada has - in our own right - developed a top-notch country that doesn't cause people to try to flee to the U.S. over fences as with Mexico.  We have many, many differences, but are both first-world, first-rate countries, and comments like these are so disappointing because as a U.S. citizen in the posts above, you seem to be demanding respect for your country, and then make this kind of casual, disrespectful throwaway comment.  Do you think the U.S. is the only country with patriotic pride?

"According to Gallup's annual public opinion polls, Canada has consistently been Americans' favorite nation, with 96% of Americans viewing Canada favorably in 2012."; "Canada has a great reputation internationally — the best reputation, in fact, if you look at an international survey from 2013 that asked 27,000 people across the globe what they thought about the safety, public policy, efficacy of government and other attributes of 50 different countries. Canada came out at the very top of those reputation rankings, edging out Sweden" -- these kinds of results don't happen by accident, or because we're up here just waiting around for the U.S. to help us out all the time and prop us up.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #133 on: August 28, 2015, 02:48:26 PM »

Our northernmost state does from time to time like to get judgmental, and we just roll our eyes.  Wouldn't it be nice to be nestled safe along the border of the most powerful country and economy the world has ever seen?

Are you....are you serious? First of all, don't even start with that 'Canada is another U.S. State' baiting BS, it's not even close, there are far more differences between Canada and the U.S. than between even the most disparate of your States.

I'll have to disagree.  English speaking Canada is pretty similar, politically, to the New England states.  Sure, there are notable differences, but Vermont is a whole lot closer to Canada's perspectives than Texas'.

SK Joyous

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #134 on: August 28, 2015, 03:05:04 PM »

Our northernmost state does from time to time like to get judgmental, and we just roll our eyes.  Wouldn't it be nice to be nestled safe along the border of the most powerful country and economy the world has ever seen?

Are you....are you serious? First of all, don't even start with that 'Canada is another U.S. State' baiting BS, it's not even close, there are far more differences between Canada and the U.S. than between even the most disparate of your States.

I'll have to disagree.  English speaking Canada is pretty similar, politically, to the New England states.  Sure, there are notable differences, but Vermont is a whole lot closer to Canada's perspectives than Texas'.

Please explain how?  I am not a Vermont expert but from their political history, they seem very different from us but have distinct similarities to Texas.  For example, very lax gun laws, direct voting for their head of state (rather than head-of-party system that Canada uses), and has pretty low taxes and pretty low social benefits (unpaid parental leave, low social payments - I know they rank pretty high in the U.S. terms, but compared to Canada - very low).  What am I missing in the similarities with Canada?  I am not being sarcastic, I would really like to know

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #135 on: August 28, 2015, 03:27:53 PM »
Here's an idea i've seen around the place that tries to describe some regional similarities within the USA that don't line up with National Borders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America
An interesting idea, that rings true to some extent

SK Joyous

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #136 on: August 28, 2015, 03:40:03 PM »
Here's an idea i've seen around the place that tries to describe some regional similarities within the USA that don't line up with National Borders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America
An interesting idea, that rings true to some extent

I'll have to see if I can find this, thanks! (unfortunately for me it looks like I might be in the 'Empty Quarter' haha - how depressing!)

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #137 on: August 28, 2015, 03:41:41 PM »
Here's an idea i've seen around the place that tries to describe some regional similarities within the USA that don't line up with National Borders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America
An interesting idea, that rings true to some extent

Yeah, this is a subjective topic that would require a lot of research.  I'm not that interested in defending it.  However, I do object to that Wikipedia page's insinuation that Kentucky was a Confederate state.  That is not true....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_in_the_American_Civil_War

GuitarStv

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #138 on: August 28, 2015, 04:47:15 PM »
Communism doesn't really work in practice.  Given a long enough time frame, it pisses people off enough that they will revolt.

This is simply your opinion but not one backed by much historical evidence.  Many types of governments have had revolts due to their citizens being pissed off.  Very few of them were communist.  The USSR is an outlier in that protests against their communist dictators actually worked.  Gorbachev could have suppressed these protests with force and in fact many of the Communist party were extremely upset that he didn't.  A lot of his willingness to pursue peaceful options was due to the diplomacy and mutual respect that Reagan was able to establish with him.  He was no longer worried about appearing "weak" to the West because he believed that Reagan was committed to avoiding nuclear holocaust. 

Reagan also caught a lot of hell from his own party for "caving" to the communists at that time.  A lot of Republicans didn't like the diplomatic route, and wanted to show strength instead.

There aren't many historians who believe that the USSR was sustainable as it was working.  Collapse was pretty inevitable, particular after the multiple revolts.  As I said, the US did play a role . . . I just don't think it was enough to claim sole American credit as you appear to be arguing.


Certainly this didn't start in the mid 80s as you appear to believe.

The fact that the two items brought up that were intended to show how much good the US has done for the world in the past 50 years are both pretty shaky when you actually think about them is rather telling.

You were the one that brought up the 80's as an example from ages ago.  It appears as though you're trying to rewrite this thread as you've done with history.

No, it was mentioned as an example of the US arming someone who then turns out to be an enemy later on.  (Common American practice.)  I just mentioned that US policy had been destabilizing the middle east for ages.  I'm glad that you're no longer arguing the point any more though.

I also brought up more than two examples and you are conveniently ignoring the last.  Hmm.. Gee wonder why?  Cat got the tongue?

There's not much point in debating stuff that I agree with.  Generally, the reunification of Germany was a good thing, and the US was a factor in it.  The US has spent more money on R+D and has originated a lot of cool stuff too (although that claim can be said of pretty much any society through history).  Tough to say if this has, on balance made up for all the death and misery that your country has caused.  You seem to be reading this wrong, I'm not anti-American.  I just have little patience for starry eyed jingoism.