Author Topic: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal  (Read 26931 times)

scottish

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #150 on: January 15, 2018, 03:34:05 PM »
Face it, cheap energy has radically improved our standard of living over the past 200 years.

This is a dismal picture you paint.   No energy and we go back to living in the dark ages.   Use energy and we are subject to threatening visions of climate change.

What are we to do then?   Stop having children?

waltworks

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #151 on: January 15, 2018, 03:42:16 PM »
Face it, cheap energy has radically improved our standard of living over the past 200 years.

This is a dismal picture you paint.   No energy and we go back to living in the dark ages.   Use energy and we are subject to threatening visions of climate change.

What are we to do then?   Stop having children?

Not at all. We put a shit-ton of resources into research and invent our way out of the problem, and if we need time (which would be a smart assumption to make), we geo-engineer/adapt as much as possible to keep things from breaking down badly. There's an enormous fusion reactor stationed near our planet, we just aren't great at utilizing all that free energy right now.

The problem is that neither side in the "debate" is interested in doing that thus far.

-W
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 03:53:24 PM by waltworks »

sol

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #152 on: January 15, 2018, 03:50:19 PM »
Face it, cheap energy has radically improved our standard of living over the past 200 years.

This is a dismal picture you paint.   No energy and we go back to living in the dark ages.   Use energy and we are subject to threatening visions of climate change.

What are we to do then?   Stop having children?

How about find a way to generate energy that doesn't put carbon into the air?

Nuclear works great, but comes with proliferation and disposal risks.  Hydro and wind are great, but they won't carry baseline loads by themselves without a massive build out.  We need both large scale centralized clean energy production, and small scale clean energy production that can replace generators.  That technology doesn't exist yet.

But we'll get there eventually.  Once we figure out how to build zero point modules or dilithium crystals, it's pretty easy to use that energy to build desalinization plants and carbon capture chimneys, and then pump that water everywhere it needs to go and transport that stored carbon where it needs to go. 

Cheap and abundant clean energy, if we every figure it out, solves a huge number of humanity's problems.  Most of us aren't advocating fewer children, or even less energy consumption, we're arguing for reducing emissions so that we can consume more energy, and thus advance our civilization, without simultaneously destroying the place that civilization lives.  Fossil fuels were a devil's bargain right from the start.

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #153 on: January 16, 2018, 01:22:22 AM »
We need both large scale centralized clean energy production, and small scale clean energy production that can replace generators.  That technology doesn't exist yet.
Every river and stream in the UK that has been the site of a mill could have a generator on the site of the old mill wheel.  That would go some way to providing small-scale local generation: I live in a county which would be very suitable for this, as I can think of half a dozen sites within 5 miles.  I've made the suggestion before but really ought to get onto pushing it more seriously.

The old tide mills could be restarted: the Severn Barrier is just a bigger version of these. 

Malaysia41

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #154 on: January 16, 2018, 03:15:11 AM »
Cheap and abundant clean energy, if we ever figure it out, solves a huge number of humanity's problems.  Most of us aren't advocating fewer children, or even less energy consumption, we're arguing for reducing emissions so that we can consume more energy, and thus advance our civilization, without simultaneously destroying the place that civilization lives.  Fossil fuels were a devil's bargain right from the start.

Sol,

Usually when I read your posts - I find myself nodding in agreement and thinking, "Holy shit - he's summing up the issue succinctly and more powerfully than I ever have."

This time is different. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you seem to be saying we needn't worry about energy conservation at all.  You seem to be saying we needn't have tough conversations with all the cheap-energy junkies. We needn't lead by example, and  tell those around us to curb their habits. Because, by your logic, even though we don't have clean energy solution yet, we hope to at some point in the future.

This feels an awful lot like advocating that people max out their high interest credit cards, even though their current income streams won't allow them to pay the full tab at the end of the month.  They can simply hope to come up with a way to make more money before the bill is due (" if we ever figure it out").  In the meantime, embrace profligate spending / energy consumption! 

It's madness.

At this point, we need to develop clean, reliable energy sources. Yes. We need technology that can scrub CO2 and CH4 out of the air. Yes. All of the above. But these technologies don't exist yet at adequate scales to meet current consumption. Until we have those technologies, I think we have to have tough conversations and curb energy consumption where ever we can. No, we needn't revert to the stone age, but we do need to conserve.

I may be wrong, but from what I can tell, it seems the survival of our species may depend on us doing everything we can to stop AGW. And the thing is, cutting down energy consumption - by every single person in the 1st world- would be an effective contribution to that effort. 

Besides, cutting down energy is in line with much of the stoicism advised in this blog.  It includes finding those areas in your life where making a small change can make a difference in how much fossil fuel energy you demand. You could cut out dairy altogether, and reduce meat consumption to 1x per week (both of which have more benefits than just cutting down on energy). You could bike to the grocery store. You could turn down the heat. Etc.

One single person's effort won't do much. But everyone doing as much as they can? Shit yeah. That could make a difference.

Some here have said that energy conservation is not 'the solution' but merely a way of 'buying time'.  Yeah, that's one way to look at it. But buying time might be exactly what we need.  Global warming is a complicated issue, and while we pursue the silver bullet solutions that Sol has outlined, we all could be doing our part to reduce our energy consumption, and hopefully, stave off AGW.

Like I mentioned before, one thing that's truly terrifying to me is how resistant people can be to the idea of conserving energy on an individual level - especially those people who seem to grasp the full implications of AGW. It's one thing for people like my dad, who to this day regurgitates denialist talking points under the guise of being a serious 'skeptic.' He regurgitates asinine talking points on just about every topic, so that's to be expected. But for people who understand that 2degC may be the tipping point of no return, well, for them to not be fighting for all of us to reduce our energy consumption. It fucking terrifies me.

I may be wrong. I hope I am. But for people in this thread, on this blog - of all places - to be saying we don't have to worry about reducing our energy consumption? Like I said, it freaks me out man.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:13:10 AM by Malaysia41 »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #155 on: January 16, 2018, 03:15:52 AM »
Face it, cheap energy has radically improved our standard of living over the past 200 years.

This is a dismal picture you paint.   No energy and we go back to living in the dark ages.   Use energy and we are subject to threatening visions of climate change.

What are we to do then?   Stop having children?

How about find a way to generate energy that doesn't put carbon into the air?

Norway manages pretty well on hydroelectricity.

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #156 on: January 16, 2018, 03:28:30 AM »
Also, M41, as a ChE, I know that the tech exists to reduce harmful emissions for pennies on the dollar.  I just don't know how it works to go in to 3rd world / China and put these scrubbers on their stacks.  But sadly, America is also sliding down the scale of having a leadership role.  I fear that I will also soon be fighting to get American companies to spend those few dollars to remove BTEX and not frack indiscriminately.

partgypsy

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #157 on: January 16, 2018, 06:25:39 AM »
I don't think we all need to start living in huts to make a difference. For example a citizen in Italy consume 40% of the energy a citizen of the US does, and I don't see them as having a lower standard of living. Especially living in the US we can really do a lot more in restructuring things to reduce energy. The biggest one being that people can live close to where they work and get groceries, or using public transport. I am constantly struck at how incredibly inefficient the US is. Everyone has to drive, everywhere. I had a job where I had to go to this office building periodically to drop off paperwork. I walked. I had to walk almost all the way around the building, no sidewalk, to get to the entrance. Because the only entrance was encased in the parking garage, because I guess the assumption is no one walks, even though it was in walking distance of the same institutions other buildings.
Office buildings keep their lights and heat on 24/7. We are instructed to keep our computers running over the weekend, in case they want to push any patches through. The way we do everything is predicated on the assumption of almost free energy. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita

StarBright

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #158 on: January 16, 2018, 07:12:19 AM »
I don't think we all need to start living in huts to make a difference. For example a citizen in Italy consume 40% of the energy a citizen of the US does, and I don't see them as having a lower standard of living. Especially living in the US we can really do a lot more in restructuring things to reduce energy. The biggest one being that people can live close to where they work and get groceries, or using public transport. I am constantly struck at how incredibly inefficient the US is. Everyone has to drive, everywhere. I had a job where I had to go to this office building periodically to drop off paperwork. I walked. I had to walk almost all the way around the building, no sidewalk, to get to the entrance. Because the only entrance was encased in the parking garage, because I guess the assumption is no one walks, even though it was in walking distance of the same institutions other buildings.
Office buildings keep their lights and heat on 24/7. We are instructed to keep our computers running over the weekend, in case they want to push any patches through. The way we do everything is predicated on the assumption of almost free energy. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita

^^^ yes! and there are places in the US that are making great strides in using renewable energy.  Our local midwest college town has been working to convert to renewables for years and at this point get 40% of their energy from solar and wind. This is in a red/purple state and it can be done! You just have to get the right people on board.

The nearby large city utility began offering renewable energy a couple of years ago as well; it is a bit more expensive but worth it. Most people don't even know it is an option. So when people talk about environmental stuff around here, I'll always mention that we have the option to purchase renewables and it only costs a few bucks more a month - and many of our friends and neighbors have made the switch!

I have developed a firm belief that we just have to keep banging the drum and eventually folks will come around. It may not be fast enough to slow down climate change, but it might be enough to get us to better, cleaner, and ultimately cheaper energy to power our AC and heat when climate changes bring constant unseasonably hot and cold weather.


waltworks

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #159 on: January 16, 2018, 07:25:05 AM »
This is the problem Sol and I are talking about. You can cut emissions 90% (good luck) and you're *STILL* putting more into the atmosphere than the planet can remove.

Remember, this problem started in the late 1800s. Think about the differences in population size and lifestyle then for a moment.

Conservation is indeed important, and it might buy us a little bit of time. What it won't do is save us. That is going to have to happen with technology of one kind or another (preferably clean energy tech, but geo-engineering might very well be required at least to buy more time).

-W

toganet

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #160 on: January 16, 2018, 07:32:56 AM »
To put an optimistic spin on this problem, the realization of the coming impact of climate change is one of the largest opportunities in human history to get people to work together toward the solutions that will literally save civilization as we know it.  This is a tremendous challenge that will require the efforts of folks from every walk of like, every profession, every point of view -- and it will require visionaries and leaders to communicate the possible future we can build and motivate the masses to do their part.

This is like the Apollo program times ten, and so far only Elon Musk seems to want to do anything about it.  We won't be saved by a few billionaires (unless you're one of the few he chooses to take to Mars).  But there are exciting ideas out there, and the chance to create a world that further improves the lives of humans across the globe, in a sustainable and equitable way.

Malaysia41

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #161 on: January 16, 2018, 07:45:14 AM »
This is the problem Sol and I are talking about. You can cut emissions 90% (good luck) and you're *STILL* putting more into the atmosphere than the planet can remove.

Remember, this problem started in the late 1800s. Think about the differences in population size and lifestyle then for a moment.

Conservation is indeed important, and it might buy us a little bit of time. What it won't do is save us. That is going to have to happen with technology of one kind or another (preferably clean energy tech, but geo-engineering might very well be required at least to buy more time).

-W

Yes.  Conservation is important.  And like all other parts of the solution - its a PART of the solution.  Conservation, like new technologies, should be pursued.  None of these aspects should be cast aside with arguments that boil down to "this one thing is not enough on it's own so let's not discuss it."  Yet that's where I feel that conversations usually end up.

I type this as I realize the light is on in the kitchen even though no one is in there. I'll do my part now.

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #162 on: January 16, 2018, 07:46:17 AM »
We need both large scale centralized clean energy production, and small scale clean energy production that can replace generators.  That technology doesn't exist yet.
Every river and stream in the UK that has been the site of a mill could have a generator on the site of the old mill wheel.  That would go some way to providing small-scale local generation: I live in a county which would be very suitable for this, as I can think of half a dozen sites within 5 miles.  I've made the suggestion before but really ought to get onto pushing it more seriously.

The old tide mills could be restarted: the Severn Barrier is just a bigger version of these.
A couple of years back, I visited The Waffle House in St. Albans, UK. (Not the American Waffle House, this is a working 16th century watermill on a river.) I was walking in the mill area and showing my 3 year old how a windmill turns the grindstones, etc. to make flour for the waffles we ate. A staff member approached me and wanted to know if I had any questions.

Me: You say the mill is green, but the facility isn't. What stops you from installing a generator in the mill? Is it that the water levels aren't constant? The cost? You also don't have solar panels. What's the deal, your politicians are saying that the UK needs more renewable energy production.

Her: Regulations. We're a historic building so we can't change things without tons of bureaucracy and hiring expensive City lawyers. We've calculated that if we were to do what you suggested, payback time is 7-10 years on the investments, and our utility costs would drop, we could lower our restaurant prices and pay staff more, there's so much more we can do. But regulations. You've got to deal with historical codes when you live in the Old World.

Me: (Speechless for a good 10 seconds) I wish you the best if you can get it done. (I really meant it.)

GuitarStv

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #163 on: January 16, 2018, 07:48:27 AM »
This is the problem Sol and I are talking about. You can cut emissions 90% (good luck) and you're *STILL* putting more into the atmosphere than the planet can remove.

Remember, this problem started in the late 1800s. Think about the differences in population size and lifestyle then for a moment.

Conservation is indeed important, and it might buy us a little bit of time. What it won't do is save us. That is going to have to happen with technology of one kind or another (preferably clean energy tech, but geo-engineering might very well be required at least to buy more time).

-W

I've always thought of conservation as an important part of the whole solution.  At the moment we've only got so many tools to use:
- reducing consumption
- conserving
- taxing business for carbon produced
- better design (cities, items for sale)
- Renewable energy (solar, wind, tidal, geothermal)

None of them will solve the problem of climate change on their own.  Mass adoption will be a big step in the right direction though.  The problem is that you can look at any single one of them in isolation and say 'Meh, it won't solve the problem.' which makes people think that it's useless and want to give up on it.  If enough people give up on the stuff that can help mitigate the problem then we end up dependent upon theoretical future technology advances that may or may not materialize.  In my mind, that's a very dangerous approach.

Malaysia41

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #164 on: January 16, 2018, 07:52:45 AM »
I've been thinking quite a bit about our collective resistance to moderating energy use.  Here's a hypothesis, tell me what you think:

Hypothesis: In our guts, we all understand the link between energy usage and GDP.  GDP growth is sacrosanct. To lower energy consumption would be to lower GDP. That's a no-no. And so we avoid the topic altogether.

Take a look at this graph.
 


You can see how access to unlimited, on-demand energy enables countries to realize high GDP per capita. As in, an order of magnitude higher than countries with <90% access.

That's a tough trade-off. It feels like if you cut down just a little bit of energy availability, GDP will plummet. 

You may be thinking that energy availability != total energy usage. That's surely true. However, are they not linked? And even more so when energy is cheap?  When energy prices are kept low, it may be that 'energy availability' and 'total energy use' approach being synonymous in their effect on energy consumption and human behavior. Conversely, when energy prices rise, energy become less and less available to more and more people.

You can see how there's tremendous pressure to encourage consumption here. And for many, it's motivation enough to deny there's any problem at all. For others, it's motivation to focus on future tech to the exclusion of discussing current consumption.

I find myself questioning whether GDP growth should be a main priority.  Surely we could come up with a better framework for co-existing and thriving within a closed system with finite resources. Seeking GDP growth on the back of cheap, dirty, GHG generating energy is a perilous pursuit. The energy we're gobbling up today comes at such a high cost to our environment, it all seems ... well, it seems fucking stupid. 

And I find myself returning to the notion that we're no smarter than a colony of bacteria, hell-bent for extinction.  I just think we could be smarter than that.  It's hard for me to accept that we're probably not any smarter than bacteria.

I hope I'm wrong.  I hope the solutions that Sol and EV2020 and others are discussing save the day in the end. 

edits: typos, etc. Also  - who is that one outlier who achieves $15,000 per capita GDP with 20% availability of energy?  What's that country doing to get such an amazing return on limited energy consumption???
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 08:44:07 AM by Malaysia41 »

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #165 on: January 16, 2018, 08:20:06 AM »
Based on what little google and excel-fu I can do, I'd guess that is either Botswana or Namibia. I believe they mine a ton of precious metals and precious gemstones, particularly diamonds in the case of Botswana.

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #166 on: January 16, 2018, 08:33:42 AM »
I find myself questioning whether GDP growth should be a main priority.  Surely we could come up with a better framework for co-existing and thriving within a closed system with finite resources. Seeking GDP growth on the back of cheap, dirty, GHG generating, energy is a perilous pursuit. The energy we're gobbling up today comes at such a high cost to our environment, it all seems ... well, it seems fucking stupid. 
There is a happiness index - Gross National Happiness, started in Bhutan.  It's treated as a bit of a novelty still, but growing in influence.

One consequence of modern energy systems is that it changes human geography. Not just in transport costs, as mentioned by partgypsy, but electricity grids have enabled population centres to move away from the sources of energy (coal and oil fields, traditionally, now starting to include solar and wind) to other locations which are desirable for other reasons, many of which lead to intensive energy use.  Rethinking energy generation and use could well require similar big movements in populations within countries as well as between them, which is another barrier to progress.

sol

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #167 on: January 16, 2018, 10:44:31 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you seem to be saying we needn't worry about energy conservation at all.  You seem to be saying we needn't have tough conversations with all the cheap-energy junkies. We needn't lead by example, and  tell those around us to curb their habits. Because, by your logic, even though we don't have clean energy solution yet, we hope to at some point in the future.

I didn't mean to give anyone an excuse, and if it came off that way then I did a poor job of it.

Imagine that your doctor diagnoses you with heart disease, caused by a lifetime of morning bacon.  You simply cannot fix this problem by halving your bacon intake.  That does NOT mean you should eat even more bacon, it means you should never eat bacon again again, plus you need to overhaul your entire diet and exercise regimen, plus you need to get on some powerful meds.  And it's probably still going to kill you, eventually, because you've already damaged yourself.

Conservation helps.  Conservation is vital.  But in this case, reducing our emissions is like switching to low tar cigarettes, or reduced bacon consumption.  From one perspective it is a step in the right direction, but from another it is just taking smaller steps in the wrong direction.  I would never discourage it, but we need more than that.

I was trying to highlight that emissions (like bacon) are fun.  People want more of it, even though it is bad for us, and it's always going to be an uphill battle trying to tell people to have less fun.  Also, you don't fix anything by making it worse more slowly.  What we need, ultimately, is a way to make it better that also allows people to have more fun.  Cheap clean energy, which doesn't exist yet, is one such solution.

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #168 on: January 16, 2018, 11:06:28 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you seem to be saying we needn't worry about energy conservation at all.  You seem to be saying we needn't have tough conversations with all the cheap-energy junkies. We needn't lead by example, and  tell those around us to curb their habits. Because, by your logic, even though we don't have clean energy solution yet, we hope to at some point in the future.

I didn't mean to give anyone an excuse, and if it came off that way then I did a poor job of it.

Imagine that your doctor diagnoses you with heart disease, caused by a lifetime of morning bacon.  You simply cannot fix this problem by halving your bacon intake.  That does NOT mean you should eat even more bacon, it means you should never eat bacon again again, plus you need to overhaul your entire diet and exercise regimen, plus you need to get on some powerful meds.  And it's probably still going to kill you, eventually, because you've already damaged yourself.

Conservation helps.  Conservation is vital.  But in this case, reducing our emissions is like switching to low tar cigarettes, or reduced bacon consumption.  From one perspective it is a step in the right direction, but from another it is just taking smaller steps in the wrong direction.  I would never discourage it, but we need more than that.

I was trying to highlight that emissions (like bacon) are fun.  People want more of it, even though it is bad for us, and it's always going to be an uphill battle trying to tell people to have less fun.  Also, you don't fix anything by making it worse more slowly.  What we need, ultimately, is a way to make it better that also allows people to have more fun.  Cheap clean energy, which doesn't exist yet, is one such solution.

But, as the Scout-Master said last night to a bunch of parents of 14 y.o.s - the most rewarding part of my 'job' is when a boy steps up to the group and says, "guys, we have got to do something about this!"  Why is it obvious, when dirty dishes are piled up, or hikers are hopelessly lost, or boys can't get their tent up as the sun sets; that a leader emerges and the day is saved.  Yet when the planet is slowly but surely being made uninhabitable, we elect terrible politicians and collectively celebrate higher equity valuations?

waltworks

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #169 on: January 16, 2018, 11:12:35 AM »
Sol said it much better, as usual. Conservation is important and helpful. It buys time, which we might very well need.

If I ran the circus, we'd be putting hundreds of billions of dollars a year into energy research and various forms of adaptation (moving away from the coasts, GMO plants that are more drought tolerant, etc), and a big chunk into geo-engineering research as well. Without some or all of those, we're screwed.

-W

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2018, 12:26:29 PM »
But, as the Scout-Master said last night to a bunch of parents of 14 y.o.s - the most rewarding part of my 'job' is when a boy steps up to the group and says, "guys, we have got to do something about this!"  Why is it obvious, when dirty dishes are piled up, or hikers are hopelessly lost, or boys can't get their tent up as the sun sets; that a leader emerges and the day is saved.  Yet when the planet is slowly but surely being made uninhabitable, we elect terrible politicians and collectively celebrate higher equity valuations?

Stroking egos and promising things you can't actually control are how you win elections.  Your Boy Scout examples are when emergencies reveal leadership that people are grateful for.  If that leader spoke up much sooner that they'd have to take time out of their work or play schedules to learn how to do proper land navigation or set up a functional camp site they might not have been as well received.  The thread has been about preventing us from getting to that disaster scenario, and no politician is going to get elected telling folks to "do without" or imply the constituents might share some blame for their circumstances.

Consuming fossil fuels has provided us with our current quality of life. Disrupting that life with drastic changes to how we produce energy or alter entire industries that might put some of them out of work is more frightening to people than gradual changes to the climate over the course of decades.  "Vote for me to save our way of life, but to do that I'm probably going to have to fire you" vs "I'm not going to overtly upset anyone's apple cart and might consider proposing some changes on the margins to get some votes from the undecided bloc, though I'll change my mind if one side is going to get me more votes than the other."  Which is going to win?

aspiringnomad

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #171 on: January 17, 2018, 07:22:11 PM »
I've been thinking quite a bit about our collective resistance to moderating energy use.  Here's a hypothesis, tell me what you think:

Hypothesis: In our guts, we all understand the link between energy usage and GDP.  GDP growth is sacrosanct. To lower energy consumption would be to lower GDP. That's a no-no. And so we avoid the topic altogether.

Take a look at this graph.
 


You can see how access to unlimited, on-demand energy enables countries to realize high GDP per capita. As in, an order of magnitude higher than countries with <90% access.

That's a tough trade-off. It feels like if you cut down just a little bit of energy availability, GDP will plummet. 

You may be thinking that energy availability != total energy usage. That's surely true. However, are they not linked? And even more so when energy is cheap?  When energy prices are kept low, it may be that 'energy availability' and 'total energy use' approach being synonymous in their effect on energy consumption and human behavior. Conversely, when energy prices rise, energy become less and less available to more and more people.

You can see how there's tremendous pressure to encourage consumption here. And for many, it's motivation enough to deny there's any problem at all. For others, it's motivation to focus on future tech to the exclusion of discussing current consumption.

I find myself questioning whether GDP growth should be a main priority.  Surely we could come up with a better framework for co-existing and thriving within a closed system with finite resources. Seeking GDP growth on the back of cheap, dirty, GHG generating energy is a perilous pursuit. The energy we're gobbling up today comes at such a high cost to our environment, it all seems ... well, it seems fucking stupid. 

And I find myself returning to the notion that we're no smarter than a colony of bacteria, hell-bent for extinction.  I just think we could be smarter than that.  It's hard for me to accept that we're probably not any smarter than bacteria.

I hope I'm wrong.  I hope the solutions that Sol and EV2020 and others are discussing save the day in the end. 

edits: typos, etc. Also  - who is that one outlier who achieves $15,000 per capita GDP with 20% availability of energy?  What's that country doing to get such an amazing return on limited energy consumption???

I think the causation is likely in both directions, with higher GDP/capita also driving higher rates of electricity penetration. To me, the real take away is that once a country reaches an average income of about $20k, everyone in that country seems to gain access to electricity. It's a massive quality of life boost for its citizens, the resulting carbon emissions notwithstanding.

With that view, the country that you're heaping praise on is actually an outlier in the wrong direction, because it provides just 20% of its citizens with electricity despite an average income of $15k USD.


Abe

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #172 on: January 18, 2018, 10:58:47 PM »
In the US we will see a widening gap between states promoting renewable energy and those that don't. The West coast, Hawaii and some Midwest states are pushing hard. Other areas are not. Eventually we will reach a point where solar/wind/hydro capital cost + storage cost < natural gas capital cost + fuel cost. When that happens in each state depends on its resources & priorities, but clearly that point has arrived in some areas.  I'm pretty optimistic since the US has been the last major energy consuming country that needs to get its head out of its ass.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2012.04.09/RenewablesShare_nonHyd.png

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Climate Change - A little more freaked out than normal
« Reply #173 on: January 19, 2018, 12:30:16 AM »
Ultimately, it does give me hope that the rest of the world takes Climate Change more seriously than the 'front page U.S. stance'.  It would be easy for countries to use that as cover to leave the Paris Accord or defect from cooperative efforts, and yet the rest of the world is in an incomprehensible alignment with only the U.S. being outside the sphere of progress. 

Bravo I say!  I'm more than certain now this craziness is only a temporary anomaly.  It's like WalMart trying out advertising with middle fingers and high prices, we will soon realize that low prices and smiley faces was always best for everyone!