Author Topic: Christians! What the fork?  (Read 16413 times)

Sailor Sam

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Christians! What the fork?
« on: December 07, 2022, 04:42:20 AM »

I have some questions, but first, some background.

Background One:
Yesterday the Supreme Court heard a case. A web designer in CO wants to start a graphic design business that includes (centers on? I can’t tell) designing wedding websites.

She has not yet started this business. She is delaying starting because of Colorado’s public accommodation laws, which state that public business cannot refuse service on the basis of “disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry.”

The claimant says that being forced to “express a view about marriage that she finds offensive” violates her first amendment rights.

Cite: AP News Article.

Cite: § 24-34-601. Discrimination in places of public accommodation - definition


Background Two:
Meanwhile, the Senate has held a bipartisan vote to pass the Respect for Marriage Act, which is expected to be made into law before the end of the current Congress.

The bill is a pre-emptive fortification to protect same-sex marriage & interracial marriage, should the Supreme Court overturn Obergefall. Once signed, the Respect for Marriage law will require states to acknowledge any marriage made in a different state.

If Obergefall is overturned, there will be nothing barring states from making same-sex and interracial marriage illegal.

Thirty-six Senators voted against the bill. Before that, 157 Representatives voted against it. The senators quoted about their nay votes pointed to the Respect act being a slippery slope that could be used to threaten the tax advantaged status of churches and “target people of faith.” (Ted Cruze)

Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child? Then, can you tell me if you agree with the idea that Christian religious freedoms in America are narrowing, or that government is targeting religion?

Do you actually care about homosexuality, and if so, are there reasons other than the Bible?



I’m asking out of curiosity, and a genuine attempt to understand.

I will not vilify or ridicule any respondent. I cannot control other forum members, but I can do my very best to keep any conversation on (ack! terrible typo) OFF the third rail.

I’m also catholic, and I go to fucking church, and I tithe, and I’m pretty fucking gay. Just, as background info for anyone who wants to respond. I got some street cred, no matter which way you want to slice it, m’kay?

Don’t be a dick!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 01:06:35 PM by Sailor Sam »

Dicey

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2022, 05:22:41 AM »
Posting to follow, and encourage. It's hard to keep a positive outlook with all the bullshit that has become (or is close to becoming) normalized in our country.

nereo

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2022, 06:14:26 AM »
My significant other and I both come from Catholic families and went to Catholic schools at various periods of our lives. Overall the priests, nuns and administration were tolerant and welcoming of gay individuals, including an immediate family member. To be clear they were not encouraging the practice, but I’d say it was largely a non-issue. My family member was never denied communion or made to feel unwelcome by anyone in the Parrish.

Yes, there seems to be a shift towards more hostility, but it seems largely driven by the parishioners who seem more empowered to confront and say judgmental s$&! to others, not by the clergy. My family member stopped attending, and is driven quite a few families away as the whole welcoming vibe has vanished.

jrhampt

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2022, 06:32:28 AM »
I suppose you might consider me a lapsed protestant.  I grew up going to a southern baptist school in a 3 times a week (church attendance) family and culture.  I quit the church some time in college over sexism and treatment of gay people because it just didn't seem fair or right to me.  I don't think government is targeting religion so much as that religion is targeting government.  Christians at least in my denomination seem pre-disposed to having a persecution complex while having no experience of what real persecution is (except on the perpetration side - they're pretty good at persecuting gay people, or at least they were in the 90s when I was in school).

chemistk

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2022, 06:37:05 AM »
I don't feel like have anything productive to add, at least in terms of answering your questions, but I seem to have typed a lot. I really just want to see where this thread goes.

I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is about as close to Catholicism as you can get within the protestant spectrum. My wife was raised veryCatholic, and so ever since we've been together, we've been doing everything her way because that's what the Catholic church likes. Both our families are relatively active in their faith, with my MIL and one SIL being super-extra active. To nobody's surprise, that also means we were raised super-duper big 'C' Conservative. As in, that's a central aspect to our parents' identities (yes, our parents are quiet/soft election deniers).

Over the last few years, commensurate with our waking up and shifting nearly every socioeconomic view we have to the moderate/lean left flavor, we've become far less involved with the Church. Covid was convenient for us, as are our kids, because that gave us a valid reason to not attend services for a year or two. We're back to going to Mass maybe 2x a month, and our kids are in religious ed.

We've stopped tithing. We don't participate in Bible study. We don't attend on most holy days of obligation. We certainly don't talk about religion with our parents. BUT we do consider ourselves faithful and Christian and to that end we continue to participate.

There's a real problem, in our eyes, with the culture of the faithful right now - with Catholics, with protestants, and with the 'other guys' (the Evangelical/non-denominational/megachurch goers). Once you stop attending services regularly, and then go to services of different denominations, and then go back to your routine services, you start to see a very toxic and very virulent mindset - that it's "Us vs. Them" and every perceived wrong against us perpetrated by them is the suffering we must endure to achieve the end of our sanctimonious cause.

In general, it's in the best interests of each denomination within Christianity to see the events in the world as evidence that a spiritual war is being waged against them. The victim mentality is real, indulgent, and powerful. It also conveniently opens the door to shame and guilt - that the faithful are failing to do the work that is necessary to bring about Heaven on Earth.

Moreover, it also seems to be cultivating the especially scary mindset that when something goes right for the faithful, that it was God's will. And when something goes wrong for the faithful, it was God's will but those wrongs also must be righted.

Show me a denomination where greater than half of any given congregation is willing to challenge their own beliefs, to identify the scriptural and doctrinal contributors to a given position, to question the sermon/ideology of their preacher. Many are wont to take what is spoken in Church at face value, and to incorporate/distort it through the lens of their own worldview.

My parents, my in-laws, and many of our friends who are Christian love to have in-depth conversations about "God's will", its mystery, and most importantly - how seemingly every action they take and every view they have can be viewed and vindicated by "God's will".

Many, if not most, individual Churches and their respective denominations need two things to continue to exist today - money, and victimhood. Name me a Church where not one weekly sermon was focused on money, specifically money that the Church needs, over the course of the year. Show me one that did not ascribe itself to be against some secular force in a given month. I'll patiently wait.

Religious freedoms in America are narrowing for Christianity, because the Church no longer has a stranglehold over younger generations. All the dirt, so carefully hidden, from centuries of abuse, is being unearthed. The government is not targeting religion so much as religion is faltering. The same freedoms, the same special favors, the same back-room power that the Church held in the past is and are no longer guaranteed. What is an organization, with its root system slowly dying, supposed to do?

My wife and I were talking just last week. We have both made, individually, the observation that the Catholics we know in the area seem to be doubling down on faith and their personal obligation to serve the Church without necessarily questioning the acts they are engaging in. We both ascribe this to the unfortunate loss of many of the more moderate members of the congregation, either to megachurches or our of faith in general. This is an interesting dynamic shift on two different fronts - the traditional Churches start to become more about the worst versions of themselves than the places they desire to be, and the larger non-denominational and evangelical congregations continue to receive an injection of relatively conservative and more doctrinally focused members.

This seems to be amplifying (at least in my area) a faith-first focus on political life. When "God's will" meets calls from Church leaders for congregants to be steadfast in their faith, it's not too hard to see that those congregants are going to feel extra persecution from the secular world.

The only people who are wailing that religious freedoms are narrowing are those who would seek to find their identity primarily in their religion. I've said it before around here and I'll briefly mention it again - I, personally, feel that one of the scariest movements in Western society is empowered evangelization. Many, many that we know - even more Catholics than in years past - are using the last couple political years as a platform for trying to spread their views. What views am I most scared of? Those that would seek to create God's kingdom on earth and to usher the second coming? Who do I fear the most within those movements? Those who would actively ignore others' opinions, who would toss aside and semblance of critical thinking, and go on to view everything that happens as "God's will".

Perhaps the worst combination of that are the folks who attend Church, who choose to cherry pick how to live faithfully in their own personal life, who would more readily listen to Pauline scripture than to the Gospels, and then hide behind their faith and their interpretation of "God's will" to justify and accommodate whatever beliefs they feel they can hold.

-

No, i don't care about homosexuality. As in, you do you and I'll root for you if it makes you happy. I don't need to love another person conditionally.

ender

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2022, 06:44:08 AM »
I do think there is something materially different requiring people to make creative content supporting things they do not support vs not creative content.

For example, if the web designer is creating custom websites? Vs a template people just sign up for (like the Knot)? Or making a custom decorated cake vs buying one off a rack?

Those feel different to me. But I don't know how it'd even be possible to create a meaningfully consistent ruling/law on such things. How would you even define such a distinction? Feels like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

What I don't think those advocating for this realize is there's nothing then preventing businesses from doing the same against Christians. Or maybe they do and just don't care.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2022, 07:38:06 AM »
I was raised in the Church of England, never believed but still turn up for weddings, funerals and remembrance day services.  The Book of Common Prayer is a thing of beauty in the English language.  (The Third Collect of the Day, said at Evensong: "Lighten  our darkness, we beseech thee O Lord, and by thy great mercy defend us from all perils and dangers of this night.")

I also identify within the LGBT+ alphabet soup.

And I'm a retired lawyer who used to have bits and pieces to do with human rights law and the European Convention on Human Rights.

There is no easy answer, mostly because there are people who are trying to make it all as dificult as possible.

My two basic mantras are:

1) There is no freedom of religion unless there is also freedom from religion.

2)  Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want but cannot act to someone else's detriment on the basis of that belief.

So I think that the Colorado web designer is entitled to believe gay marriage is offensive to her religious beliefs.  She is entitled not to be gay married herself.  But because her views are based on religious beliefs she is not entitled to prevent, obstruct or otherwise discriminate against the gay marriage of anyone else.  So she is not entitled to refuse to code a website for gay weddings.   

The point becomes clear if you use other examples of discrimination.  Supposing this woman believes on religious grounds that women are subordinate to men.  Should she be allowed to refuse to make a website that celebrates a woman being in charge of an organisation that employs men?  Of course not.  Should she be allowed to refuse to make a website that celebrates the achievements of someone who is disabled?  No.  Should she be allowed to refuse to make a website that celebrates the achievements of a Black person?  No.

Some people who call themselves Christian have a distinctly unChristlike view of their fellow human beings.  This woman is one of those people.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2022, 08:10:51 AM »


I have some questions, but first, some background.

Background One:
Yesterday the Supreme Court heard a case. A web designer in CO wants to start a graphic design business that includes (centers on? I can’t tell) designing wedding websites.

She has not yet started this business. She is delaying starting because of Colorado’s public accommodation laws, which state that public business cannot refuse service on the basis of “disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry.”

The claimant says that being forced to “express a view about marriage that she finds offensive” violates her first amendment rights.

Cite: AP News Article.
Uhm... she is not expressing any view about marriage when selling clothes. The gay couple might express it, when they wear it, but the seller does not.

When I call a company to mow my grass, they are not expressing their view on climate change.

GilesMM

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2022, 08:49:11 AM »
These things ebb and flow but the general trend is positive over the last several decades.

iris lily

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2022, 09:12:11 AM »
I do think there is something materially different requiring people to make creative content supporting things they do not support vs not creative content.

For example, if the web designer is creating custom websites? Vs a template people just sign up for (like the Knot)? Or making a custom decorated cake vs buying one off a rack?

Those feel different to me. But I don't know how it'd even be possible to create a meaningfully consistent ruling/law on such things. How would you even define such a distinction? Feels like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

What I don't think those advocating for this realize is there's nothing then preventing businesses from doing the same against Christians. Or maybe they do and just don't care.

I’ve heard this point put forth elsewhere as a defense of the web designers.

There’s also the point that the web designer is not discriminating against gay people. Her dissatisfaction in servicing an EVENT, an ACTION, is different than discrimination against a PERSON.

I’m Not a Christian and you’re not gonna get thoughtful Christians or even current practicing Christians responding to this thread I reckon.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 09:20:04 AM by iris lily »

GuitarStv

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2022, 09:19:42 AM »
I do think there is something materially different requiring people to make creative content supporting things they do not support vs not creative content.

For example, if the web designer is creating custom websites? Vs a template people just sign up for (like the Knot)? Or making a custom decorated cake vs buying one off a rack?

Those feel different to me. But I don't know how it'd even be possible to create a meaningfully consistent ruling/law on such things. How would you even define such a distinction? Feels like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

What I don't think those advocating for this realize is there's nothing then preventing businesses from doing the same against Christians. Or maybe they do and just don't care.

Christians are still the overwhelming majority in the US.  So an incredibly tiny minority of businesses that choose to not serve Christians would likely have very little impact.  That's probably why they don't care about what they're advocating for - the bad parts won't hurt them.

Should creative businesses be allowed to designate themselves as  'no blind people and wheelchairs'?
 Or how about the old classic . . . 'whites only'?  Rules around protected classes exist because historically it has been shown time and again that without them minorities of all sorts will face discrimination and inability to get needed services.

You're free to make choices, but not free from the consequences of those choices.  If you want to run a public business, you need to follow the rules that go along with that business.  It doesn't matter if your beliefs prevent you from washing your hands - you fail health and safety and your bakery will be shut down.  You can violate the minimum acceptable standards that society has set for running a business, but should then expect to be held legally accountable for the choices you make.



I do think there is something materially different requiring people to make creative content supporting things they do not support vs not creative content.

For example, if the web designer is creating custom websites? Vs a template people just sign up for (like the Knot)? Or making a custom decorated cake vs buying one off a rack?

Those feel different to me. But I don't know how it'd even be possible to create a meaningfully consistent ruling/law on such things. How would you even define such a distinction? Feels like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

What I don't think those advocating for this realize is there's nothing then preventing businesses from doing the same against Christians. Or maybe they do and just don't care.

I’ve heard this point put forth elsewhere as a defense of the web designers.

There’s also the point that the web designer is not discriminating against gay people. Her dissatisfaction in servicing an EVENT, an ACTION, is different than discrimination against a PERSON.

Just like how 'whites only' restaurants weren't discriminating against black people . . . they were showing dissatisfaction of the EVENT of race mixing and the ACTION of black people eating in a restaurant with whites, right?

That logic doesn't seem to hold up very well to scrutiny.  It seems very much like an attempt to make clear discrimination more socially acceptable.

Fireball

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2022, 09:26:49 AM »
Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child? Then, can you tell me if you agree with the idea that Christian religious freedoms in America are narrowing, or that government is targeting religion?

Do you actually care about homosexuality, and if so, are there reasons other than the Bible?

Christian - Yes. Do I agree that Christian religious freedom is narrowing or that government is targeting religion - No. Seems I can still do whatever I want in regards to practicing religion, and I don't see anything on the docket that would change that.

Do I care about homosexuality - No. I try to let people live their lives on most issues. What anyone does is between them and their Creator.  The Bible says it's a sin, so that's my stance on it, but I'm not interested in trying to impose my own beliefs onto others or restrict their rights. I tend to vote for those in the pro-LGTBQ+ rights camp.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 09:32:19 AM by Fireball »

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2022, 10:37:45 AM »
Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child? Then, can you tell me if you agree with the idea that Christian religious freedoms in America are narrowing, or that government is targeting religion?

Do you actually care about homosexuality, and if so, are there reasons other than the Bible?

Christian - Yes. Do I agree that Christian religious freedom is narrowing or that government is targeting religion - No. Seems I can still do whatever I want in regards to practicing religion, and I don't see anything on the docket that would change that.

Do I care about homosexuality - No. I try to let people live their lives on most issues. What anyone does is between them and their Creator.  The Bible says it's a sin, so that's my stance on it, but I'm not interested in trying to impose my own beliefs onto others or restrict their rights. I tend to vote for those in the pro-LGTBQ+ rights camp.

They way I read it , as a Christian you have one job.. To love people.. End of story!

All are God's children and he loves ALL of them despite their choices in life. If christians are judging other people then its about as sanctimonious as a 5 year old telling a classmate that he or she is making incorrect choices!

So by that logic Christians are supposed to LOVE their LBTQ+ brothers and Sisters just they same as they do anyone else. Whether its considered a Biblical sin should not be relevant.

As you say, to judge would be imposing your beliefs on others.


Metalcat

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2022, 10:58:30 AM »
I do think there is something materially different requiring people to make creative content supporting things they do not support vs not creative content.

For example, if the web designer is creating custom websites? Vs a template people just sign up for (like the Knot)? Or making a custom decorated cake vs buying one off a rack?

Those feel different to me. But I don't know how it'd even be possible to create a meaningfully consistent ruling/law on such things. How would you even define such a distinction? Feels like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

What I don't think those advocating for this realize is there's nothing then preventing businesses from doing the same against Christians. Or maybe they do and just don't care.

I’ve heard this point put forth elsewhere as a defense of the web designers.

There’s also the point that the web designer is not discriminating against gay people. Her dissatisfaction in servicing an EVENT, an ACTION, is different than discrimination against a PERSON.

I’m Not a Christian and you’re not gonna get thoughtful Christians or even current practicing Christians responding to this thread I reckon.

Not sure why you would assume this?

Why wouldn't current, thoughtful Christians want to reply to this thread?

I spend a lot of time with affirming Christians, and they would be the first people to respond to things like this.

"Christian" is a MASSIVE concept and applies to plenty of folks who don't interpret their faith to mean an obligation to disapprove of sexual and gender minorities.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2022, 11:10:25 AM »
Without reading everyone else's replies, because I'm not feeling it right now-

I am Episcopalian.  We welcome all of God's children.  https://www.episcopalchurch.org/who-we-are/lgbtq/  I believe that each of us was made in Their image, and the core of each one of us is as They have made us to be, including gender and sexual identity.

"Religion" (in it's nebulous form used in the political and legal sense) is being used as just another method to try to control others in order to gain power in this country, imho.  Because that's what they want- power.  Power and control, not following Jesus' teachings.  They are the modern-day Pharisees, screaming out how pious and righteous they are while doing everything they can to amass power and wealth, ignoring the true needs of the poor and needy.  They can use religion to get the poor and needy on their (political) side, so that they can keep power without actually having to share the wealth and power that they deeply covet and truly worship at the alter of.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2022, 11:10:40 AM »
Why yes, I am a Christian.

Let me preface everything by being very clear that I have no interest whatsoever in legislating morality between consenting adults. This is why I voted against California’s Same-Sex Marriage Ban Initiative in 2008. I even think polygamy should be legal (as long as it’s between consenting adults) even though I have absolutely zero interest in it. I just don’t see it as the church’s place to force such matters on wider society. I worship a King not of this world, and his Kingdom is not like the kingdoms of the world. Whereas the kingdoms of this world use death as a weapon to gain power, the way of Jesus is cruciform love, dying to yourself for the sake of others, including your enemies and those who persecute you. Love, from the Christian perspective, is a verb not a noun. In other words, it’s primarily about action for the benefit of others, not a feeling or sexual intercourse which so often can become about self-gratification.

That said, I hold to a traditional Judeo-Christian sexual ethic, which is also true of my church community. Yes, this is entirely based on my understanding of the Bible. I’m in my sixth year of reading through the entire Bible, and I often delve into the original languages and do extensive studies into the cultural context. I would actually prefer to find a way to disregard the sexual ethic that evolved to what it became in the first century CE, and was clearly adopted by the early church and subsequent generations. Doing so would be much easier. I’ve even spent a significant amount of time working through arguments in favor of changing the way we interpret scripture on this issue, but I honestly don’t see a way to do this without abandoning solid exegesis.

However, it’s clear to me that this isn’t an issue of primary doctrine. If you read the main creeds of the early church (The Apostle’s Creed, The Nicean Creed), sexual ethics don’t rise to the level of first importance. In other words, affirming churches may still be within the envelope of Christian orthodoxy (depending on what else they hold to), even if I disagree with them on this specific issue. The Apostle Paul certainly had many things to say to early churches about their sexual ethics, and it should be noted that homosexuality was very prevelant in the Greco-Roman world of that time, so it’s not like this is a new issue for the church.

As a Christian, I want to offer a collective apology to the LGBTQ+ community. Much of the American church has behaved terribly towards homosexuals, everything from how they handled the AIDS crisis to turning a blind eye to the persecution of, and violence directed at homosexuals, to the ongoing unnecessary culture wars. In the case of the web designer, it’s not like she’s being asked to ghost write a gay novel, she’s just designing web pages. Why not view the business as an opportunity to love people even if you disagree with them? So, I’m sorry for the behavior of many of my fellow Christians.

Regarding the persecution question: *sigh* My fellow Christians in America need to broaden their perspectives. There are places in the world, mostly the Middle East and Africa, where Christians are actually persecuted. Like killed, tortured, and raped for their faith (https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/january/christian-persecution-2021-countries-open-doors-watch-list.html). There’s nothing remotely approaching this in the US. And, perhaps, that’s part of the problem with the American church. Christianity has always been at its best when it is persecuted and despised by those in power. Even the term “Christian” was originally meant to be derogatory, and Christianity spread rapidly in the Roman Empire, eventually overturning it, despite being heavily persecuted and looked down upon as a religion of women and slaves (Roman culture was extremely misogynistic).

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2022, 11:41:16 AM »
In my experience it’s the clergy rather than the congregation that express these views. I went to an Anglican Christmas service in 2016 when there was a national debate here about permitting gay marriage. There was a stand-in priest, who was a retired archbishop. For some reason his sermon was about homosexuality and how bad it was. The entire congregation was upset about the sermon, as it was inappropriate to be told what to do, and everyone was up in arms that it wasn’t about the season. The Wikipedia article about the subsequent vote has a couple of interesting graphs about how people of faith voted - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Marriage_Law_Postal_Survey

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2022, 12:13:10 PM »
God's elect are numbered amongst the sinners in the world.  He comes to seek and save the lost, not the righteous.  God can save murderers, thieves, adulterers, homosexuals, and even the self-righteous religionist.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2022, 12:59:08 PM »
This Canadian is still trying to figure out how Herschel Walker got 1,719,481 votes.  From the way the man speaks, he has to be suffering from some kind of acquired head injury.  There has to be some serious level of disconnect between actions / values / politics.  I just don't comprehend. 

In the same way I can't comprehend religious doctrine in most organized religion.

I attend church every now and then.  Fortunately the one within walking distance from our house is a United church - and is an affirming congregation. All are welcome.  My favourite Sunday is the affirming service in May when they have a re-commitment service to being welcoming to all. Love is love. The church choir is joined by a rainbow chorus and the music is out of this world. 

Some person thinking that they need protection from the courts to discriminate against anyone just doesn't compute. But again, so much that is going on in the US is unfathomable to me.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2022, 01:08:11 PM »
God's elect are numbered amongst the sinners in the world.  He comes to seek and save the lost, not the righteous.  God can save murderers, thieves, adulterers, homosexuals, and even the self-righteous religionist.

Totally agree, bro. But...you did sidestep the questions. Would you like to amend?

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2022, 01:09:43 PM »
This is a non-Christian perspective, but I think there's something to contribute.

People have been shifting their time away from in-person social organizations like churches for decades (see Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone). This shift has coincided with a steady increase in the amount of "screen time" we expose ourselves to, as the screens have improved and become better at meeting our needs. Thus the things people used to do in church are now being done on a smartphone or computer.
  • Entertainment has shifted from church socials to Netflix and YouTube.
  • Appreciation of music and art is now done through Pandora, Flickr, etc. rather than choir, or church art.
  • Dating and sexual opportunities have shifted from arrangements made at church to dating apps.
  • Job networking has shifted from social networks at church to Indeed.com and LinkedIn.
  • The social support net has shifted from church "charity" to GoFundMe.
  • Social communication and keeping up with friends shifted from church to Facebook, Instagram, Snap, WeChat, and text messaging.
  • Comforting senses of meaning, belonging, and certainty have shifted from religious dogma to often-politicized social media tribes on Reddit, Twitter, Telegraph, etc.
So thanks to advances in technology that started with television, the average person has a lot more ways to get their needs met. Also, this new lifestyle is much cheaper than being a church member, both in terms of money and in terms of intangibles such as travel time, having to deal with difficult people, and church-imposed rules one has to conform to.

Another way of saying it is that the hours per day people now spend staring into screens came from somewhere, and it wasn't work, sleep, or personal hygiene - it came out of their time spent in social organizations. This is why church membership has declined from 70% in 1999 to 46% today, and is still falling hard.

Of course, if you are running a church and your donor / volunteer base drops 34% that doesn't make the organization any cheaper to run. Each remaining church member must pay more, volunteer more, and spend more time doing less-rewarding activities like recruiting to keep the infrastructure afloat. They will have to submit to stricter behavioral rules and norms to maintain internal cohesion amid these rising costs.

Churches that stick to their old formulas are dying, leaving behind the churches that have moved to the fringe as the only ones still growing. The result is churches that are politicized and almost cult-like in their narratives of persecution and imminent end times. If even a tiny sliver of the population can be persuaded to believe these things, they will commit more of their time and resources to their fringe church, and it doesn't matter whether that church can ever appeal to a wider base or if they are running off their moderates. They are at least surviving in a world where the moderates are investing more in screen time.

This is where the fixation on sexual deviancy comes from. Hateful attitudes toward sexual minorities and nonconformists provide a rallying cry to keep the ingroup together despite the rising costs of membership and falling attendance. Again, this might only appeal to a small minority of religious folks, and it may run off the moderates, but the organization's agenda is set by the fringe who are willing to devote more of their time and money to the group.

The whole reason religion got into arranging and regulating people's mating habits is because people needed an institutional solution to the problems of infidelity, males fighting over females, people's anxieties about never finding someone to mate with, and the problem of heterosexual fathers not supporting their offspring. Left unabated, these challenges would shake the foundations of the tribe or civilization. Heterosexual monogamy enforced by religious codes and public "wedding" ceremonies - where the church gives two people permission to fuck - were the solutions. This became a key product the church was selling. You had to conform to the terms of the church's "marriage" product, but the church would with near-absolute certainty get you laid. The church's "marriage" product was better than any other option women had to pursue their reproductive goals with male commitment, so that's where the women went. The males of course, had to follow. To this day most churches are actually run on a day to day basis by a group of women.

But this whole set of problems seems outdated in an era of birth control, condoms, and dating app culture. Religious opposition to birth control, abortion, divorce, and sex outside of marriage can be seen as an attempt to preserve the religious monopoly on access to sex. To the extent "Adam and Steve" don't have to worry about partner's commitment to the baby they will never produce from their sexual encounters, their "gay lifestyle" represents a competitive product in the minds of religious conservatives. It is perceived as a threat to churches the same way Uber is perceived as a threat to taxi companies.

Of course, this sounds like nonsense to anyone who is strictly hetero, but as we now know sexuality is a spectrum, and there are probably many married people in churches with suppressed same-sex attractions or gender fluidity. To them at least, the "LGBTQ lifestyle" might seem like a compelling alternative to their church-arranged marriage. They are personally tempted, and so they see sexual preference as a choice anyone can make (it is not). They also see their temptations as a threat to their marriages and church community.

Any lowering of the disadvantages for women is thought to reduce their dependency on the church's "marriage" product. Birth control, abortion, and divorce are seen as wrong because they reduce the costs of not being traditionally married. Without the disincentive of single motherhood, it is thought there's less of a reason for attractive females to participate in the church's mate-arrangement program. And of course without attractive females, the males go too. Resistance to reproductive technology is perceived by the churches as a matter of survival.

Dating apps and casual safe sex, backed by the option to abort in the event of a contraceptive failure (up to 1 in 20 odds), arguably offer women better opportunities than marrying someone from the small pool of men in their church, and waking up to his farts and other shortcomings every morning thereafter. If the women quit church, the men quit too, and the church collapses. The only way to head off this outcome is to effectively ban the alternatives. Also see: Indonesian conservatives just outlawed sex outside of marriage.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2022, 01:51:49 PM »
God's elect are numbered amongst the sinners in the world.  He comes to seek and save the lost, not the righteous.  God can save murderers, thieves, adulterers, homosexuals, and even the self-righteous religionist.

Totally agree, bro. But...you did sidestep the questions. Would you like to amend?
The gospel is spiritual, not political.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2022, 02:20:36 PM »

Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child? Then, can you tell me if you agree with the idea that Christian religious freedoms in America are narrowing, or that government is targeting religion?

Do you actually care about homosexuality, and if so, are there reasons other than the Bible?

I am Christian and I think that in general most of the public discussion about narrowing of religious freedom are overblown. I operate a business selling Christian products online and while the local/state/federal government haven't really done anything to interfere in that - the big tech companies that are the gatekeepers to most of the internet have impacted that ability. Mostly by either not allowing advertising to target people based on anything remotely related to religion (Google and Meta), or by allowing advertising of religious products at all (Amazon).

It's a hot button social issue and politicians on both sides will use it to rally their base and gain money and votes - and ultimately power.

I care about homosexuality only to the extent that I think it is inherently disordered and not conducive to the continuation of our species and human society as a whole. I have no problem personally with anyone who is homosexual and tolerate them just fine whether it's an extended family member or co-worker. But I'm not going to accept it as equal or endorse it as normal from a moral perspective.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2022, 02:44:16 PM »
I care about homosexuality only to the extent that I think it is inherently disordered and not conducive to the continuation of our species and human society as a whole. I have no problem personally with anyone who is homosexual and tolerate them just fine whether it's an extended family member or co-worker. But I'm not going to accept it as equal or endorse it as normal from a moral perspective.

I've heard this sort of reasoning before but never understood it.  If there's a heterosexual couple where one of them is fertile and the other infertile . . . do you consider it immoral for them to have sex?

This would seem to be equally disordered and not conductive to the continuation of the species.  Are these heterosexual couples in the same boat equally immoral?  If not, why not?

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2022, 02:51:53 PM »

Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child?
Quote
I’m asking out of curiosity, and a genuine attempt to understand.

Seeing as you are calling people you will disagree with "child," which reads very condescendingly to me, I am doubtful that you have any interest in understanding.

Ma'am, I am tonight.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2022, 02:59:36 PM »
I care about homosexuality only to the extent that I think it is inherently disordered and not conducive to the continuation of our species and human society as a whole. I have no problem personally with anyone who is homosexual and tolerate them just fine whether it's an extended family member or co-worker. But I'm not going to accept it as equal or endorse it as normal from a moral perspective.

I've heard this sort of reasoning before but never understood it.  If there's a heterosexual couple where one of them is fertile and the other infertile . . . do you consider it immoral for them to have sex?

This would seem to be equally disordered and not conductive to the continuation of the species.  Are these heterosexual couples in the same boat equally immoral?  If not, why not?

Yeah, I'm kind of scratching my head. With the rampant rate of straight couples requiring assistive technology to reproduce these days, what does being straight or gay have to do with the propagation of the species?

Wouldn't the MUCH bigger threat be the well documented pattern of women in the US waiting longer to have babies???

Wouldn't the even bigger concern be the massive amount of endocrine disruptors being allowed to permeate our environment?
I would think that the steady degradation of the y chromosome would be more of a concern than the gay folks who, y'know, are as capable of reproducing as the straights.

Like, there's A LOT of unnatural shit that's threatening the fertility of the species. Lesbians getting sperm donations to have babies ain't one of them.

Heck, my closest lesbian friends have 6 kids. One could also argue that gay men who have surrogates are actually putting *more* babies I to the world because they are being carried by women who wouldn't otherwise be choosing to have babies.

Gay men using surrogates = fewer fertile wombs going to waste.

The math here just doesn't add up to me.

Meanwhile, I'm straight and just don't want kids. So I guess immoral.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 03:14:06 PM by Malcat »

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2022, 03:09:06 PM »
'No place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation' was said by then Justice Minister Pierre Trudeau* (quoting the Globe and Mail's Martin O'Malley) back in 1967.
https://www.cbc.ca/archives/no-place-for-the-state-in-the-bedrooms-of-the-nation-1.4681298

We went on to much later approve same-sex marriage.

Most Canadians are either fine or OK with it, because we see it as fair that all committed couples have the same legal rights and responsibilities.  The fruitfulness of one's union (brought up in another comment) is irrelevant, because then every post-menopausal woman would not be having sex since she can no longer produce a child, and would she even be eligible for marriage in that viewpoint?  Post-menopausal widows can remarry, after all.

Canada has done the same with abortion, there are no laws in the criminal code (federal jurisdiction) about abortion.  It is left up to each province's medical system to deal with abortions.  Somehow we haven't ended up with an epidemic of super late term abortions.   /s


Re Tell me are you a Christian, child?  to me that reads as a shortening of
Tell me are you a Christian, child of God?



* If that name seems familiar, he went on to become Prime Minister, and many years later his son Justin also became Prime Minister.  This bill is one of the reasons Canadian social conservatives hate them both.  Oh, and adding to the "insult", Justin was the one who, when asked why his cabinet had as many women as men in it, simply replied "It's 2015" (going by memory here, I may have the actual year off by a bit).


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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2022, 03:22:18 PM »

Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child?
Quote
I’m asking out of curiosity, and a genuine attempt to understand.

Seeing as you are calling people you will disagree with "child," which reads very condescendingly to me, I am doubtful that you have any interest in understanding.

@DadJokes, I’m sorry it came across as condescending, that was exactly opposite my intention. I was quoting a lyric from Walking In Memphis, but Mark Cohen. I thought it would lighten the mood, and insert a bit of whimsy that would make people feel able to discuss. “My child,” is also a Catholic thing/trope; I tought it would be a wink n’ a nod to being part of the tribe.

Text based discussion is difficult, but I do assume good intentions.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 03:30:32 PM by Sailor Sam »

Metalcat

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2022, 03:27:10 PM »

Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child?
Quote
I’m asking out of curiosity, and a genuine attempt to understand.

Seeing as you are calling people you will disagree with "child," which reads very condescendingly to me, I am doubtful that you have any interest in understanding.

I’m sorry it came across as condescending, that was exactly opposite my intention. I was quoting a lyric from Walking In Memphis, but Mark Cohen. I thought it would lighten the mood, and insert a bit of whimsy that would make people feel able to discuss. “My child,” is also a Catholic thing/trope; I tought it would be a wink n’ a nod to being part of the tribe.

Text based discussion is difficult, but I do assume good intentions.

He missed the dad joke

Sailor Sam

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2022, 03:28:05 PM »
I care about homosexuality only to the extent that I think it is inherently disordered and not conducive to the continuation of our species and human society as a whole. I have no problem personally with anyone who is homosexual and tolerate them just fine whether it's an extended family member or co-worker. But I'm not going to accept it as equal or endorse it as normal from a moral perspective.

@Michael in ABQ, you’ve gotten a few replies from others, but I hope you’ll indulge this one.

I’ve also seen homosexuality described as disordered, but I’ve never been sure what it means. Would you be willing to give your definition?

Again, I’m genuine, blah blah. I’m not going to argue with you, blah blah. I truly want to understand your take on the word.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2022, 03:29:11 PM »

Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child?
Quote
I’m asking out of curiosity, and a genuine attempt to understand.

Seeing as you are calling people you will disagree with "child," which reads very condescendingly to me, I am doubtful that you have any interest in understanding.

I’m sorry it came across as condescending, that was exactly opposite my intention. I was quoting a lyric from Walking In Memphis, but Mark Cohen. I thought it would lighten the mood, and insert a bit of whimsy that would make people feel able to discuss. “My child,” is also a Catholic thing/trope; I tought it would be a wink n’ a nod to being part of the tribe.

Text based discussion is difficult, but I do assume good intentions.

He missed the dad joke

Oh shit! I forgot about his tag, too. We’re suddenly at French Farce level of misunderstandings re: whimsy and jokes!

Metalcat

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2022, 03:34:48 PM »

Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child?
Quote
I’m asking out of curiosity, and a genuine attempt to understand.

Seeing as you are calling people you will disagree with "child," which reads very condescendingly to me, I am doubtful that you have any interest in understanding.

I’m sorry it came across as condescending, that was exactly opposite my intention. I was quoting a lyric from Walking In Memphis, but Mark Cohen. I thought it would lighten the mood, and insert a bit of whimsy that would make people feel able to discuss. “My child,” is also a Catholic thing/trope; I tought it would be a wink n’ a nod to being part of the tribe.

Text based discussion is difficult, but I do assume good intentions.

He missed the dad joke

Oh shit! I forgot about his tag, too. We’re suddenly at French Farce level of misunderstandings re: whimsy and jokes!

It's kind of spectacular actually

Sailor Sam

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2022, 03:44:47 PM »
This new law provides the groundwork to compel a church to host such an event. This is due to changing the definition of a historical word with a global context and legacy.  Had they made a law providing for all of the liberties of the family without using the word marriage, the potential to impede religious freedom might be minimized.

@soulpatchmike Just to clarify, is the paragraph I quoted above talking about the Respect for Marriage bill, soon to become a law?

Assuming I’m reading your post correctly, the bill as amended by the Senate does carve out protections for religous thingums. The text of the bill is on Wikipedia, but the meaty portion is:

(b) Goods Or Services.—Consistent with the First Amendment to the Constitution, nonprofit religious organizations, including churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, nondenominational ministries, interdenominational and ecumenical organizations, mission organizations, faith-based social agencies, religious educational institutions, and nonprofit entities whose principal purpose is the study, practice, or advancement of religion, and any employee of such an organization, shall not be required to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage. Any refusal under this subsection to provide such services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges shall not create any civil claim or cause of action.

Or, have I misunderstood what law you’re discussing?

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2022, 04:20:37 PM »

However, I'll make an attempt to answer by quoting what a Facebook friend posted. I certainly don't agree with the view this person has, but I do believe that I am pretty good at understanding both sides of most issues, which I find is a rare trait.

Quote
Here is my response, in agreement with our pastor, to the current Respect for Marriage Act (RMA) in congress. (note: I'm not feeling respected by this bill):

Marriage is a one-man/one-woman covenant union. The Respect for Marriage Act is misnamed and mis-adopted by the United States Senate. I am disappointed to see several U.S. senators move away from this reality and fail to amend this bill further to strengthen religious liberty protections for people and institutions of faith. In fact, they're repealing the 1996 DOMA. (not good)

Regardless of how any law, government institution, or culture treats marriage, the church must remain anchored in the truth that God has defined marriage as a covenant union between one man and one woman for life. God's design for marriage is purposeful and for our good.

The government doesn't create the institution of marriage; it only recognizes its value. Therefore, it has no legitimate authority to redefine the term to make it more inclusive of sexual and even numerical variations. Marriage should be reserved for the intimate, exclusive, sexually complementary relationship of one husband and one wife.
The quote is fine as far as it goes.  But it elides two important words, "I believe".  The statements in the quote are statements of faith: faith of the individual, faith of the religious institution whose tenets that individual follows.  Because they are statements of faith they cannot, in the USA, be imposed on any person that doesn't believe them.  Unfortunately the followers of proselytising, evangelistic religions tend not to understand that and work to impose their beliefs (usually eg on marriage and abortion) on others.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2022, 04:48:13 PM »
God's elect are numbered amongst the sinners in the world.  He comes to seek and save the lost, not the righteous.  God can save murderers, thieves, adulterers, homosexuals, and even the self-righteous religionist.

Totally agree, bro. But...you did sidestep the questions. Would you like to amend?
The gospel is spiritual, not political.

Yes. But, I have no idea what you’re trying to get across, beyond general religiousity. If you have a wider point, you’re gonna have to use more words in order for me to understand. If your point IS just general religious words, then we have 100% communicated, and we can both go nodding on our merry way.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2022, 04:59:58 PM »

However, I'll make an attempt to answer by quoting what a Facebook friend posted. I certainly don't agree with the view this person has, but I do believe that I am pretty good at understanding both sides of most issues, which I find is a rare trait.

Quote
Here is my response, in agreement with our pastor, to the current Respect for Marriage Act (RMA) in congress. (note: I'm not feeling respected by this bill):

Marriage is a one-man/one-woman covenant union. The Respect for Marriage Act is misnamed and mis-adopted by the United States Senate. I am disappointed to see several U.S. senators move away from this reality and fail to amend this bill further to strengthen religious liberty protections for people and institutions of faith. In fact, they're repealing the 1996 DOMA. (not good)

Regardless of how any law, government institution, or culture treats marriage, the church must remain anchored in the truth that God has defined marriage as a covenant union between one man and one woman for life. God's design for marriage is purposeful and for our good.

The government doesn't create the institution of marriage; it only recognizes its value. Therefore, it has no legitimate authority to redefine the term to make it more inclusive of sexual and even numerical variations. Marriage should be reserved for the intimate, exclusive, sexually complementary relationship of one husband and one wife.
The quote is fine as far as it goes.  But it elides two important words, "I believe".  The statements in the quote are statements of faith: faith of the individual, faith of the religious institution whose tenets that individual follows.  Because they are statements of faith they cannot, in the USA, be imposed on any person that doesn't believe them.  Unfortunately the followers of proselytising, evangelistic religions tend not to understand that and work to impose their beliefs (usually eg on marriage and abortion) on others.

The quote @DadJokes’ posted actually did increase my understanding of wtf is happening, which my acknowledgement of got a bit lost in our misunderstanding.

It hadn’t occurred to me that the point of contention was the repeal of DOMA. It hadn’t entered my mind as something still active, since Windsor brought down Section 3 in 2013, and Obergefell toppled Section 2 in 2015.

Once two sections of a 3 section Act have been killed, and the first Section is just the title, one…kinda forgets about said Act. To my own detriment, I suppose.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2022, 05:28:26 PM »
I care about homosexuality only to the extent that I think it is inherently disordered and not conducive to the continuation of our species and human society as a whole. I have no problem personally with anyone who is homosexual and tolerate them just fine whether it's an extended family member or co-worker. But I'm not going to accept it as equal or endorse it as normal from a moral perspective.

I've heard this sort of reasoning before but never understood it.  If there's a heterosexual couple where one of them is fertile and the other infertile . . . do you consider it immoral for them to have sex?

This would seem to be equally disordered and not conductive to the continuation of the species.  Are these heterosexual couples in the same boat equally immoral?  If not, why not?

Because God made them infertile?  LOL.

Responding to the quoted quote:  At this point in our little planet's descent into human-created dystopia, do we really want more humans, other than to pay taxes and grow the economy because we'd all like to be kept in the style to which we've become accustomed?

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2022, 05:38:12 PM »
I care about homosexuality only to the extent that I think it is inherently disordered and not conducive to the continuation of our species and human society as a whole. I have no problem personally with anyone who is homosexual and tolerate them just fine whether it's an extended family member or co-worker. But I'm not going to accept it as equal or endorse it as normal from a moral perspective.

I've heard this sort of reasoning before but never understood it.  If there's a heterosexual couple where one of them is fertile and the other infertile . . . do you consider it immoral for them to have sex?

This would seem to be equally disordered and not conductive to the continuation of the species.  Are these heterosexual couples in the same boat equally immoral?  If not, why not?

Because God made them infertile?  LOL.

In the example I gave, God only made only one partner infertile.  If continuation of the species is an important point for religious reasons then I would expect the fertile one to be required to dump the one who can't make babies and find a better breeder.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2022, 05:41:27 PM »
I care about homosexuality only to the extent that I think it is inherently disordered and not conducive to the continuation of our species and human society as a whole. I have no problem personally with anyone who is homosexual and tolerate them just fine whether it's an extended family member or co-worker. But I'm not going to accept it as equal or endorse it as normal from a moral perspective.

I've heard this sort of reasoning before but never understood it.  If there's a heterosexual couple where one of them is fertile and the other infertile . . . do you consider it immoral for them to have sex?

This would seem to be equally disordered and not conductive to the continuation of the species.  Are these heterosexual couples in the same boat equally immoral?  If not, why not?

Because God made them infertile?  LOL.

In the example I gave, God only made only one partner infertile.  If continuation of the species is an important point for religious reasons then I would expect the fertile one to be required to dump the one who can't make babies and find a better breeder.

Lol, right?

Otherwise they might engage in the *exact same* fertility technology or adoption that gay couples often use.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2022, 05:52:10 PM »
Hey now. I want to have a discussion. Go make fun of us in the other corner, please, and thanks.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2022, 05:54:19 PM »
Lots of typical retorts here telling someone their beliefs are wrong. Shameful, but typical.

Not any religion at all for me. This is a hard topic for me, because I believe in personal freedom, but also law and order. These marriage topics phase across lines and things get cloudy. Ditto for someone wanting to pick whose money they take for services, when that bumps against some laws.

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2022, 06:05:24 PM »
I do think there is something materially different requiring people to make creative content supporting things they do not support vs not creative content.

For example, if the web designer is creating custom websites? Vs a template people just sign up for (like the Knot)? Or making a custom decorated cake vs buying one off a rack?

Those feel different to me. But I don't know how it'd even be possible to create a meaningfully consistent ruling/law on such things. How would you even define such a distinction? Feels like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

What I don't think those advocating for this realize is there's nothing then preventing businesses from doing the same against Christians. Or maybe they do and just don't care.

I’ve heard this point put forth elsewhere as a defense of the web designers.

There’s also the point that the web designer is not discriminating against gay people. Her dissatisfaction in servicing an EVENT, an ACTION, is different than discrimination against a PERSON.

I’m Not a Christian and you’re not gonna get thoughtful Christians or even current practicing Christians responding to this thread I reckon.

Not sure why you would assume this?

Why wouldn't current, thoughtful Christians want to reply to this thread?

I spend a lot of time with affirming Christians, and they would be the first people to respond to things like this.

"Christian" is a MASSIVE concept and applies to plenty of folks who don't interpret their faith to mean an obligation to disapprove of sexual and gender minorities.

There are very few self proclaimed Christians on this thread and even fewer those who engage in these discussions that call them out. Michael in ABQ  is about the only one I can think of.

The “lot of time” you spend with affirming Christians on topics such as this one is not time spent here on this website.

I think sailor Sam would be better served to take her discussion to a forum made up of Christians, possibly Catholics, a forum that has an established base of respectful discussion. However I don’t mean to gatekeep here and I support Sam in bringing up whatever topic she wants to bring up, just like anyone can answer or not as they choose. I just mean this is not the prime audience to get thoughtful answers from.

Metalcat

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2022, 06:28:47 PM »
Hey now. I want to have a discussion. Go make fun of us in the other corner, please, and thanks.

Okay, I'm lost, who is making fun of whom?

I was posting about how I didn't understand the claim that homosexuality is somehow damaging to reproductive rates. It doesn't make sense to me.

Metalcat

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2022, 06:31:08 PM »
I do think there is something materially different requiring people to make creative content supporting things they do not support vs not creative content.

For example, if the web designer is creating custom websites? Vs a template people just sign up for (like the Knot)? Or making a custom decorated cake vs buying one off a rack?

Those feel different to me. But I don't know how it'd even be possible to create a meaningfully consistent ruling/law on such things. How would you even define such a distinction? Feels like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

What I don't think those advocating for this realize is there's nothing then preventing businesses from doing the same against Christians. Or maybe they do and just don't care.

I’ve heard this point put forth elsewhere as a defense of the web designers.

There’s also the point that the web designer is not discriminating against gay people. Her dissatisfaction in servicing an EVENT, an ACTION, is different than discrimination against a PERSON.

I’m Not a Christian and you’re not gonna get thoughtful Christians or even current practicing Christians responding to this thread I reckon.

Not sure why you would assume this?

Why wouldn't current, thoughtful Christians want to reply to this thread?

I spend a lot of time with affirming Christians, and they would be the first people to respond to things like this.

"Christian" is a MASSIVE concept and applies to plenty of folks who don't interpret their faith to mean an obligation to disapprove of sexual and gender minorities.

There are very few self proclaimed Christians on this thread and even fewer those who engage in these discussions that call them out. Michael in ABQ  is about the only one I can think of.

The “lot of time” you spend with affirming Christians on topics such as this one is not time spent here on this website.

I think sailor Sam would be better served to take her discussion to a forum made up of Christians, possibly Catholics, a forum that has an established base of respectful discussion. However I don’t mean to gatekeep here and I support Sam in bringing up whatever topic she wants to bring up, just like anyone can answer or not as they choose. I just mean this is not the prime audience to get thoughtful answers from.

*Raises hand*

I don't openly call myself a Christian because I don't like being associated with what a lot of people think Christianity is, but I'm a very active member of a Christian church, and an even more active member of a group of religious leaders.

So yeah, I *am* one of those people, and perfectly happy to engage.

BlueMR2

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2022, 07:32:13 PM »
Question:
Tell me are you a Christian, child? Then, can you tell me if you agree with the idea that Christian religious freedoms in America are narrowing, or that government is targeting religion?

Do you actually care about homosexuality, and if so, are there reasons other than the Bible?

Yes.

Uncertain, it's really hard to map the mountains of laws we live under into something where I can answer as to how it's changing overall.

Care as a specific item, no, not really, not any more than any other part of our sinful nature.  Sin needs to be called out in a loving way.  Using it as a weapon to injure others is not appropriate.  We must be careful to not endorse sin, but instead work to help others deal with it.  All very much easier said than done.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2022, 07:53:31 PM »
In the spirit of Sam's request, I'll provide a few comments. I am a Christian and personally have had a radical change of perspective on things - pretty much as far as you can in many areas while still believing that the foundation of doctrine and my life needs to rely heavily upon the Bible, but as I don't go to a Catholic/Episcopalian, etc. denomination, I'm probably closer to evangelical than most everyone who has commented.

That being said, I do believe from scripture that homosexuality is a sin. I disagree with the sentiment that Jesus had very little to weigh in on things relating to sexuality, as he took a pretty hard line on even lust itself. I do agree that he didn't call out homosexuality particularly and that many of the verses used (especially in the Old Testament) to call out homosexuality are poorly evaluated. I base my view more on how I see marriage set up in Christianity in Ephesians 5, for example. So, tldr, it's a doctrine thing.

That being said, I don't see the benefit of me harassing someone about it as a sin (certainly not if they're not a Christian) but overall as well in almost every case (I personally have never felt lead to talk to anyone about it in my life). In general, I feel that we're rarely (but sometimes) called on to talk to people about sins in their lives - but it might just as well be my sin of not being patient with my family after a "hard day" or lacking humility or a thousand other problems.

I don't see that Christians are being persecuted in America. Christians are being legitimately persecuted and have been, for all intents and purposes, exterminated/pushed out of whole areas simply due to their religion. It does a disservice to them to call any minor thing we might have to deal with here, persecution, and it allows others to distract from the fact that Christians are in the minority in many places and are suffering worse in some places than pretty much anyone in America of any persuasion is (not that we have people that aren't hurt or discriminated against - just that it's so incredibly bad in many areas that we can't fathom it).

I agree with a lot of what's been said in this thread. I will say - not to start an argument, as it's pointless - but the only thing I strongly disagree with that's been said is the notion that a belief based on faith cannot be used as a basis for a person making/pursuing a rule of law. I've argued against that view in the past, and I find it lacking merit and extremely problematic.

sailinlight

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2022, 08:19:58 PM »
Seems weird to ask this question on this echo chamber forum since there are probably only five members that would disagree with your point of view.
Anyway I'm not a christian, but I can see their perspective from a nonreligious point of view. When someone creates a product for their profession, I don't think the state should compel them to create something that interferes with their values, religious or not. The same people who say that abortion is a right since the government should not be able to prevent women from killing their unborn children think it's okay for government to force a website developer or cake baker to make something with their own creative power that, in their perception of the world, will cause them to be seen as a sinner in the eyes of their creator and lord, or in the worst case, damn them for eternity. All simply to avoid offending and slightly inconveniencing someone who now has to go to the next cake shop down the street.
Should the cake shop owner be forced to create a Nazi cake, a penis cake for a child's 10th birthday, a "yay I got away with murder" cake? Service isn't being refused based on who the customer is, as was the case in Jim Crow, but what he/she is asked to produce.
Every website designer has to have a limit on the type of websites they create. If I make wedding websites, I wouldn't take a client that wants an online commerce store. Maybe I only want to make wedding websites with pink themes. Maybe I ONLY want to create websites for lesbian weddings because I was raped when I was young and am afraid to be in the room with any male clients when working on the website design. Clearly if discrimination is allowed in one direction, it should be allowed in the other.
I'm a painter who creates portraits of people. I'm really good at painting people of African descent but terrible at painting any other groups. So bad in fact, that doing so would damage my brand and cause me financial harm if the painting were displayed publicly. Would it be wrong to turn away a commission to paint someone of Norwegian or Korean descent? I'll take anyone as a client who's paying for the painting, but I can only paint a black person.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2022, 09:00:02 PM »
Seems weird to ask this question on this echo chamber forum since there are probably only five members that would disagree with your point of view.

I actually find the MMM forum to be a pretty good cross-sectional when it comes to certain demographics. My work life and personal life are both lived in bubbles, and I like that the forum is a place to hang out in a continuum.

I didn’t state my point of view (though I’ll avoid being cute and admit my standpoint is fairly obvious) because I didn’t post the thread as a debate. I posted the thread to ask questions, which several people have generously answered. I’ve asked a few follow up questions, and if those people choose to respond, well then, we might even have a discussion. It could be said that we’re having a gay old time.*

Besides, even if only five people choose to respond, I definitely found the right five. Before today I genuinely could not understand wtf, and now I do understand wtf. I don’t agree with the premise being used to underpin wtf, but at least I understand. And from understanding comes a whole slew of other positive things.


*A dabba-do time!

GuitarStv

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2022, 09:33:42 PM »
Seems weird to ask this question on this echo chamber forum since there are probably only five members that would disagree with your point of view.
Anyway I'm not a christian, but I can see their perspective from a nonreligious point of view. When someone creates a product for their profession, I don't think the state should compel them to create something that interferes with their values, religious or not. The same people who say that abortion is a right since the government should not be able to prevent women from killing their unborn children think it's okay for government to force a website developer or cake baker to make something with their own creative power that, in their perception of the world, will cause them to be seen as a sinner in the eyes of their creator and lord, or in the worst case, damn them for eternity. All simply to avoid offending and slightly inconveniencing someone who now has to go to the next cake shop down the street.
Should the cake shop owner be forced to create a Nazi cake, a penis cake for a child's 10th birthday, a "yay I got away with murder" cake? Service isn't being refused based on who the customer is, as was the case in Jim Crow, but what he/she is asked to produce.
Every website designer has to have a limit on the type of websites they create. If I make wedding websites, I wouldn't take a client that wants an online commerce store. Maybe I only want to make wedding websites with pink themes. Maybe I ONLY want to create websites for lesbian weddings because I was raped when I was young and am afraid to be in the room with any male clients when working on the website design. Clearly if discrimination is allowed in one direction, it should be allowed in the other.
I'm a painter who creates portraits of people. I'm really good at painting people of African descent but terrible at painting any other groups. So bad in fact, that doing so would damage my brand and cause me financial harm if the painting were displayed publicly. Would it be wrong to turn away a commission to paint someone of Norwegian or Korean descent? I'll take anyone as a client who's paying for the painting, but I can only paint a black person.

Person with a profession:
- website designer
- sandwich designer

Product created:
- Website
- Sandwich

Reason for refusal:
- Doesn't like that God made the person requesting service gay
- Doesn't like that God made the person requesting service black


I have to strongly disagree with your assertion that this bigotry is somehow different from the bigotry that regularly denied black people service in the civil right era.  Your argument that it's not a big deal and that gay people can just go elsewhere is certainly one that was used to justify denying service to black people at that time though.

LennStar

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Re: Christians! What the fork?
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2022, 12:55:11 AM »
Let's face it: Most of the problems stem from the word marriage. The state should not define what a marriage is - that's what I always hear.

Fine.

Go give "marriage" to the church alone and the state gives an "partnership".
Marriage is a purely privately, religious thing. It isn't written down in any state document and doesn't come with a name change. A partnership does. All tax advantages go only to the partnership.
Shop owners can refuse service if two homosexuals are married, but not if they are in a partnership.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!