Chinese Mafia

[stratozyck]

I realize this post will be borderline disturbing for some. But it needs to be said and people should be aware of what is going on.

I work in a STEM field. I have a PhD in a STEM field. A majority of the graduate students I went to school with were Chinese nationals. In my graduate program, about 50% of those students cheated, ranging from plagiarism to cheating on exams (often both). Fine, whatever.

Fast forward to the job market. I currently have a good job in my field. Non Chinese in my field have an unofficial phrase, called the "Chinese Mafia." It refers to when a department in a company becomes majority Chinese and refuses to hire non Chinese. I have seen it in my own company. Recently I applied for a better job at another company and knew I had no shot at it when I walked around and saw that everyone - I mean 100% - were Chinese. I knew I did not stand a chance (I have not heard back from them but do not expect a yes).

In my own company, we recently had an opening and put someone in charge of finding a replacement. The person put in charge was Chinese. She came back with a list of potential hires and all of them - 100% - were Chinese. HR went ballistic and said you simply cannot only consider one ethnic group. She was taken off the task.

In their culture they haven't been exposed to diversity and inclusion. They won't consider an ethnic Indian. Its odd because as a native born (I know, not "native American so to speak), we have allies. Our allies are Indians, Muslims, and Africans. Everyone is allied against the Chinese because they are the majority.

The downside to an all Chinese group? Well remember what I said about a lot of them cheating in grad school? Some of those tend to cheat and fudge numbers on the job as well. Look it up, something like 90% of Chinese students cheat on their application to American schools. Many tests such as the ACT and the GRE are refusing to give tests in China and the Far East due to high rates of cheating.

There, I said it. Accuse me of what you will. I heard it in grad school what they think of us. They think Americans are all fat and lazy. They think we are all promiscuous (thanks to Hollywood movies!) and swear a lot.

[mxt0133]

You're using some pretty broad stokes there.  In grad school I too witness a lot of cheating, however I saw everyone do it.  Chinese, Indian, Caucasian, African American, the only ethnic group I didn't see cheat were Hispanics and it's because the school I went to a 1-2% Hispanic student population and didn't see any of them cheated.

Do the things that you say happen, sure they do.  Lot's of unfair things happen and yes we should be aware of them but assuming that a particular ethnic group all act a certain way, then you're right it is disturbing and dangerous.

[marty998]

It's all fun and games until a bridge collapses because the engineer can't do the maths properly.

People will get found out. It's highly unlikely that you can wing your way through an entire career without being competent in the work that you have to perform. Some jobs obviously have more consequences than others.

I had an experience once with a hiring manager who would only hire Filipinos. He was from the Philippines and so were each and every one of his 20 staff. Needless to say I didn't get the job. That department then had an axe put through it later on anyway.

I don't think all Filipino managers are like that however, just that one.

My university classes (10 years ago) were filled with Chinese students. There was a fair bit of cheating on assignments going on (plagiarism, sharing of answers etc). Universities need the money so they were reluctant to fail them.

The students were there mainly to get residency... the degree itself didn't really matter. If accounting was top of the list of occupations that the immigration department was fast tracking for Visas, then accounting was what everyone studied. A few years ago we had 10's of thousands of student hairdressers.

I heard it in grad school what they think of us. They think Americans are all fat and lazy. They think we are all promiscuous (thanks to Hollywood movies!) and swear a lot.

Most of the world thinks that of your country (sorry) .... I don't think that viewpoint is unique to China.

[LennStar]

I dont know about the rest, but US IS the fattest (bigger) nation in the world. Both on living fat and burning dead fat.

And it is normal for ALL ethnics to strongly prefer their own, most of that is unconcious. Speech pattern is one heavy influencer most people never consider for example.


Also I think most people will think of the triads if you say chinese mafia.

[deadlymonkey]

I dont know about the rest, but US IS the fattest (bigger) nation in the world. Both on living fat and burning dead fat.

And it is normal for ALL ethnics to strongly prefer their own, most of that is unconcious. Speech pattern is one heavy influencer most people never consider for example.


Also I think most people will think of the triads if you say chinese mafia.

I came here wondering why someone was posting about the triads....lol

My grad school class was 85% Chinese but didn't have any real negative impacts other than some language barriers during group projects. 

I'm sure everyone in the military is familiar with the Philippino mafia.  If you go into any supply department in any branch, at least 75% of the folks will be philippino.  Nothing negative, just that is the one area of work that the group seems to gravitate to.  It's always a joke if you can't get a part or something, you go talk to the mafia and they will find one for you.

[GuitarStv]

I work at a software company.  The last eleven people hired by my manager over the past four years were Asian (ethnically Chinese, they all speak Cantonese . . . so I think that means from Hong Kong?).  I don't think it was racial discrimination though, because our manager is Arab.  It seems like at certain times when we're hiring, most of the people in the job market happen to be one particular race.  Six years ago nearly everyone who was hired by the company was from India.  Judging by the older employees, before that there was an influx of Russians.

The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is "ALMOST NO WOMEN IN SOFTWARE".  :P

[deadlymonkey]

I work at a software company.  The last eleven people hired by my manager over the past four years were Asian (ethnically Chinese, they all speak Cantonese . . . so I think that means from Hong Kong?).  I don't think it was racial discrimination though, because our manager is Arab.  It seems like at certain times when we're hiring, most of the people in the job market happen to be one particular race.  Six years ago nearly everyone who was hired by the company was from India.  Judging by the older employees, before that there was an influx of Russians.

The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is "ALMOST NO WOMEN IN SOFTWARE".  :P

I think if you walk into almost any grad school program in the country for CS you will see more than 50% of the class will be Asian, 25% will be indian and every other ethnicity falls into the last 25%.  A big portion of this is because foreigners come here for grad programs, but also what sane American wants to get a grad degree in CS?   lol

[TheOldestYoungMan]

You're using some pretty broad stokes there.  In grad school I too witness a lot of cheating, however I saw everyone do it.  Chinese, Indian, Caucasian, African American, the only ethnic group I didn't see cheat were Hispanics and it's because the school I went to a 1-2% Hispanic student population and didn't see any of them cheated.

Do the things that you say happen, sure they do.  Lot's of unfair things happen and yes we should be aware of them but assuming that a particular ethnic group all act a certain way, then you're right it is disturbing and dangerous.

+1

In both undergraduate and graduate programs, I can count on one hand the number of people I didn't personally see cheating.  It was 99%, knew no cultural or ethnic borders.  I was shocked and appalled.

As a graduate teaching assistant, I regularly caught students cheating, but the most blatant time was a group of all white kids turned in a report that matched, word for word, a report handed in the previous year by a group of asian kids.

I started asking around at the ombudsman office and interviewing professors who had been around awhile, and the story that came together generally was this:

1.  In the beginning, college was without homework.  At least, the homework didn't count.  Do it, don't, no impact on grades.  You get a Final Exam, and if you're lucky, also a midterm.

2.  Some students found this to be a stressful arrangement, and so would kill themselves.

3.  As student suicide is bad ^{[citation needed]}, homework grades were introduced as a way to recognize those efforts and mitigate the impact of a single bad day during a test.

4.  But once you are grading homework (and ignorant of this evolution) you end up in a conflict.  Enough homework needs to be assigned for mastery, and better safe than sorry, so too much gets assigned.

5.  Now there's too much work to be done in the time allotted, and STEM folks are good at solving problems.

6.  Rampant widespread cheating.

I don't know if the above story is exactly right, but I would say it is true that there is no possible way to legitimately complete all the assignments I was assigned in college.  I was comfy taking the lower grades for incomplete assignment, because who cares if you get an A or a B in a class, it doesn't matter.  But some folks felt like they needed that 4.0, so they felt like they had to cheat.

To get an idea of how widespread it is, at a top 10 engineering school, I can name all 3 people that didn't cheat on a regular basis, out of a graduating class of 900.  Not once or twice, not in dire need, but as a regular part of their everyday.  And it isn't like I was all detective TOYM trying to catch them, they were blatant about it and dismissive of the idea that it mattered.

When I told the prof I was TA'ing for about that report?  He sort of shrugged and said "What're you doing to do?  The group leader is the head of the honor's society and I can tell ya that every other group cheated too, just not as blatantly.  I honestly just don't care anymore, and haven't for about 20 years.  It's their education, if they want to rob themselves it really isn't my problem."

So yea.  Cheating is widespread.  Not a race thing.

When I see a job applicant from STEM with anything over a 3.5 GPA, I just mentally note that they are a cheater, unless I am totally wowed in the interview by their genius level intelligence.

[deadlymonkey]

When I see a job applicant from STEM with anything over a 3.5 GPA, I just mentally note that they are a cheater, unless I am totally wowed in the interview by their genius level intelligence.

I only wish more people had this view.

[Silverado]

When I see a job applicant from STEM with anything over a 3.5 GPA, I just mentally note that they are a cheater, unless I am totally wowed in the interview by their genius level intelligence.

I only wish more people had this view.

Very interesting! I always withhold judgment unless I see a transcript. I will file this view away, something to think about for sure. Never thought about it before.

[LennStar]

I dont know about the rest, but US IS the fattest (bigger) nation in the world. Both on living fat and burning dead fat.

http://gazettereview.com/2016/06/top-10-fattest-countries-in-world/

US is #10.

Okay, Mexico I know (head on head and direct neighbor) South Africa (really didnt know that) and Egypt - really? The Nil land has become fat? O.o 7 fat years? I know they had diabetes problems but not that they were so fat.

[nobodyspecial]

Cheating is a perfectly legitimate response to the "nothing but testing" shift of education.
The teachers and the students both know that the test is pointless but funding/graduation/employment depends on the test.

Cheating, whether straight copying of answers down to gamesmanship of what subject combination you take, to what classes the school offers is the result you would expect from rational actors.

[TheOldestYoungMan]

Cheating is a perfectly legitimate response to the "nothing but testing" shift of education.
The teachers and the students both know that the test is pointless but funding/graduation/employment depends on the test.

Cheating, whether straight copying of answers down to gamesmanship of what subject combination you take, to what classes the school offers is the result you would expect from rational actors.

Well, I don't know about legitimate, but I do agree that it shouldn't come as a surprise.  The response to cheating that I see seems highly irrational.  It's either ignore the problem or ostracize those caught.  Coming up with a better way to evaluate students and removing the incentives to circumvent that evaluation seems like what we should be working towards.

But we aren't.

[libertarian4321]

I dont know about the rest, but US IS the fattest (bigger) nation in the world. Both on living fat and burning dead fat.

http://gazettereview.com/2016/06/top-10-fattest-countries-in-world/

US is #10.

This can not stand!

C'mon people, lets do this- order a pizza for lunch.  A large pizza.

Do it for 'Murrica! 

We can get back to number 1!

[libertarian4321]

I work at a software company.  The last eleven people hired by my manager over the past four years were Asian (ethnically Chinese, they all speak Cantonese . . . so I think that means from Hong Kong?). 

Hong Kong, Singapore, and Southeastern China all have primarily Cantonese speakers, as well as enclaves in other countries.

[Jack]

Non Chinese in my field have an unofficial phrase, called the "Chinese Mafia." It refers to when a department in a company becomes majority Chinese and refuses to hire non Chinese.

...

In their culture they haven't been exposed to diversity and inclusion. They won't consider an ethnic Indian.

That's funny because in the software field people say the same things about Indians (especially at companies like IBM and Tata).

I can't say I've experienced the issue myself (with either Chinese, Indians or any other particular demographic), but that's probably because few engineers immigrate to Atlanta so we employ a lot of native southerners. Granted, I haven't tended to work with a lot of women, black people or Latinos, but I don't think that's due to discrimination in hiring. Instead, I think it's due to the fact that not many major in CS or engineering in the first place, so that seems like a problem that needs to be fixed at the grade-school level. (In contrast, there are a lot of Chinese and Indian students at Georgia Tech, but they mostly get jobs elsewhere after graduation.)

When I see a job applicant from STEM with anything over a 3.5 GPA, I just mentally note that they are a cheater, unless I am totally wowed in the interview by their genius level intelligence.

Ha! I'll have to remember to use the fact that I didn't cheat as an excuse for my crappy grades (assuming anybody cares in the future).

[ariapluscat]

3.  As student suicide is bad ^{[citation needed]}, homework grades were introduced as a way to recognize those efforts and mitigate the impact of a single bad day during a test.

Could we not make light of student suicides? ^{[like really please]}

[acroy]

When I see a job applicant from STEM with anything over a 3.5 GPA, I just mentally note that they are a cheater, unless I am totally wowed in the interview by their genius level intelligence.

I only wish more people had this view.

^^ It took a couple times, but after hiring a few STEM people I began to mistrust the high GPAs as well. Many, many high GPA with poor work experience and lousy personal/communication skills.
Give me a 3.0 student with work history, ability to articulate, and some drive.

[ariapluscat]

I don't think it's fair to describe Chinese students cheating if you don't point out how often people of other ethnicity or nationalities cheat. I think there may also be a cultural difference in how students cheat, cozying up to the teacher vs sharing work among students vs insert method of choice . Plus the stakes may be higher for some people. Doesn't justify it, but you're more likely to cheat if you're trying to stay in a safer/preferred country than if that's not on the line.

I do think some ethnic groups emphasize hiring people within the culture, esp if the members want to be able to speak their language at work.

I do also think Chinese and a lot of asian ethnicities do have issues of racism. My asian friends are pretty blunt about it. A few admitted they wouldn't invite the darker skinned members of our friend group home bc their parents would be angry and/or rude. They felt really ashamed about it, but honestly had 0 idea how to talk to their parents about it. And the east vs west asian divide! DAMN. Chinese vs. Indian is a bad relationship and so can Chinese vs. Korean. I think a lot of Americans are surprised by how the animosity. I know a lot of non-asian ppl talk about being excluded and worry about it and even Asians who are small in number in the US worry that a Chinese or Japanese or Korean heavy group won't be open to them bc they're Filipino, Indian, Malay, or some other south/west Asian.

I think the NY times had an expose on Nail Salons and the abuses there. One of the things they talked about was the racial / ethnic hierarchy the small business owners were putting in place.

Maybe if some companies would take on inclusion or diversity initiatives?

And to be clear, I'm not saying Asians are more racist than other racial groups. Just the way they express it is pretty different than how most Americans are used to. And I think too we have to think about the history of it, where Chinatowns started not bc asians were self-segregating but bc they legally weren't allowed to live in other parts of the city. When you've been targeted due to your nationality it kind of makes sense to build a close knit community that shares the few accessible opportunities.

[TheOldestYoungMan]

3.  As student suicide is bad ^{[citation needed]}, homework grades were introduced as a way to recognize those efforts and mitigate the impact of a single bad day during a test.

Could we not make light of student suicides? ^{[like really please]}

Apologies, I was actually intending to make light of the tendency on this board to highlight a claim as a hasty generalization and use that as a basis for an argument from fallacy.  Student suicide is clearly tragic, but as I wasn't linking some study establishing that fact (or any of the other claims I made) I did sort of expect a bunch of "nuh-uh cheating isn't a thing" posts.

[yuka]

I work at a software company.  The last eleven people hired by my manager over the past four years were Asian (ethnically Chinese, they all speak Cantonese . . . so I think that means from Hong Kong?). 

Hong Kong, Singapore, and Southeastern China all have primarily Cantonese speakers, as well as enclaves in other countries.

Are you sure about that? I believe that Chinese Singaporeans are primarily Mandarin speakers.

[Lunasol]

I dont know about the rest, but US IS the fattest (bigger) nation in the world. Both on living fat and burning dead fat.

http://gazettereview.com/2016/06/top-10-fattest-countries-in-world/

US is #10.

Okay, Mexico I know (head on head and direct neighbor) South Africa (really didnt know that) and Egypt - really? The Nil land has become fat? O.o 7 fat years? I know they had diabetes problems but not that they were so fat.

To add to this, I know Mexico is the biggest market for Coca-Cola :)

The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is "ALMOST NO WOMEN IN SOFTWARE".  :P

I recently went to an interview and the lady said "you'd be the first female developer of my team", all the other girls in the department work as functional analysts, not me! I'll write whatever you want in PL/SQL....

[arebelspy]

[MOD NOTE: This whole thread is just filled with broad stereotypes, racist undertones, and overtones, and has no benefit or anything praiseworthy. Locking.]