Author Topic: Changing the US Constitution after Trump  (Read 5506 times)

Leisured

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 696
  • Age: 79
  • Location: South east Australia, in country
  • Retired, and loving it.
Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« on: October 23, 2020, 05:57:51 AM »
After the presidency of FDR, Congress changed the US Constitution to prevent a President having more than two terms. This is not a criticism of FDR.

Trump is a different matter. The POTUS is both head of state and chief executive, a practice frowned on by British and European constitutional lawyers for over 150 years. A US naval ship has a captain (head of state) and an executive officer (prime minister). Most, if not all, European republics have a President and a Prime minister. European monarchies have a crowned head of state, drained of most, but not all power, and a separate Prime Minister, as we do in Australia.

It is to the credit of the US that a disaster like Trump has not happened before.

I suggest an Ambitious plan, and a fall back, Less Ambitious plan.

Ambitious Plan. Make the POTUS a head of state, with limited executive powers. Create the post of Prime Minister, or some similar name, who does the actual work. The arrangement in old Japan was that the Emperor would be crowned and immediately enter semi retirement, and the Shogun would to the work. If things went well, the Emperor got the credit, but if things went badly the shogun got the blame. An attractive arrangement.

Less Ambitious plan. Ronald Reagan, an actor, served as Governor of California, a post recently served by another actor Schwarzenegger, so he learned the ropes of government during his service. I suggest a provision in the US Constitution that you do not accept a blow in from a TV show to be a candidate, but insist that they serve an apprenticeship (shades of The Apprenticeship) before being let lose on the Presidential campaign trail.

A rider to my Ambitious Plan. European monarchies do not have zero power. My monarch, Elizabeth 2, acting through her Governor General in Australia, sacked the Australian Federal government in Nov 1975 because they could not pass a Supply bill. In the US this known as gridlock, and my monarch has the power to sack the entire Federal Parliament. Good. As one conservative politician remarked, on a question from reporter. 'The governor General has sacked Parliament (Congress), but he does not have the power to appoint a new government. Only the people can do that.' He could afford to be complacent because he knew from polls that his side would get in, which they did.




partgypsy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5233
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2020, 08:29:45 AM »
The issue is that, over time the presidency has assumed more and more power. However there appears to be little checks once the president is elected, to do anything about a mentally unstable, unfit, or rogue president. It seems the only remedy is congress impeaching, or invoking that he is not fit. Howver in this case as the senate is the same party as the president, the senate chose what they felt was best for their party (retaining power) over what was best for the country. Thankfully no bombs were dropped, no wars were started, .

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5267
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2020, 09:26:55 AM »
The issue is that, over time the presidency has assumed more and more power. However there appears to be little checks once the president is elected, to do anything about a mentally unstable, unfit, or rogue president. It seems the only remedy is congress impeaching, or invoking that he is not fit. Howver in this case as the senate is the same party as the president, the senate chose what they felt was best for their party (retaining power) over what was best for the country. Thankfully no bombs were dropped, no wars were started, .

There are still 11 days until Election Day, and 3 months until Inauguration Day. Knock on wood.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Location: Noo Zilind
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2020, 09:37:19 AM »
Oh man, you guys are going to have to make changes but I couldn't even suggest where to start.

intellectsucks

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 254
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2020, 02:02:28 PM »
What problem would this solve exactly?  If I understand correctly, you're suggest the U.S. presidency be split into two roles: one largely ceremonial with little or no power, one that has the power to actually do the work of the presidency.  So what happens when you get a "disaster" like Trump that occupies the "prime minister" position?

The U.S. constitution is fine the way it is (except MAYBE term limits for Congress).

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2020, 02:42:40 PM »
I   propose the addition of a  preamble to the Bill of Rights.

Its purpose would be an explanation of the inherency and corollary timelessness of unalienable rights. The preamble would explain that since unalienable rights are not granted they are irrevocable.

I propose a rewrite of some of the amendments that would include "unalienable" in their wording and use language from relevant, landmark precedents in their new, more definitive wording.

I'd  enumerate in the Constitution  Court-established  fundamental rights such as  the unalienable  right of a woman to choose abortion to terminate her pregnancy.

I support an amendment that limits the tenure of senators and members of the House of Representatives.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 07:28:37 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2020, 02:53:21 PM »
After the presidency of FDR, Congress changed the US Constitution to prevent a President having more than two terms. This is not a criticism of FDR.

Trump is a different matter. The POTUS is both head of state and chief executive, a practice frowned on by British and European constitutional lawyers for over 150 years. A US naval ship has a captain (head of state) and an executive officer (prime minister). Most, if not all, European republics have a President and a Prime minister. European monarchies have a crowned head of state, drained of most, but not all power, and a separate Prime Minister, as we do in Australia.

It is to the credit of the US that a disaster like Trump has not happened before.

I suggest an Ambitious plan, and a fall back, Less Ambitious plan.

Ambitious Plan. Make the POTUS a head of state, with limited executive powers. Create the post of Prime Minister, or some similar name, who does the actual work. The arrangement in old Japan was that the Emperor would be crowned and immediately enter semi retirement, and the Shogun would to the work. If things went well, the Emperor got the credit, but if things went badly the shogun got the blame. An attractive arrangement.

Less Ambitious plan. Ronald Reagan, an actor, served as Governor of California, a post recently served by another actor Schwarzenegger, so he learned the ropes of government during his service. I suggest a provision in the US Constitution that you do not accept a blow in from a TV show to be a candidate, but insist that they serve an apprenticeship (shades of The Apprenticeship) before being let lose on the Presidential campaign trail.

A rider to my Ambitious Plan. European monarchies do not have zero power. My monarch, Elizabeth 2, acting through her Governor General in Australia, sacked the Australian Federal government in Nov 1975 because they could not pass a Supply bill. In the US this known as gridlock, and my monarch has the power to sack the entire Federal Parliament. Good. As one conservative politician remarked, on a question from reporter. 'The governor General has sacked Parliament (Congress), but he does not have the power to appoint a new government. Only the people can do that.' He could afford to be complacent because he knew from polls that his side would get in, which they did.

The mechanism that was supposed to guard against an unfit president was the electoral college. Literally, it exists because the founders did not want to leave the selection of the president up to the common man.

It failed miserably due to many factors.

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2020, 04:36:45 PM »
I'll be impressed if any of these proposals are implemented. I guess stranger things have happened, though.

Maybe we could pass a statute requiring disclosure of presidential candidates' tax returns. I don't think we need a constitutional amendment for that.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7100
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2020, 04:52:02 PM »
I support an amendment that limits the tenure of senators and members of the House of Representatives.

And Justices, along with an age limit.

Lifetime appointments made a lot more sense when people died earlier.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2020, 05:06:13 PM »
I support an amendment that limits the tenure of senators and members of the House of Representatives.

And Justices, along with an age limit.

Lifetime appointments made a lot more sense when people died earlier.


I support changing justices' lifetime tenure as follows.

1. No justice may sit on the Supreme Court longer than 25 years.

2. At the age of 80 all justices must retire.




« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 06:35:55 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3496
  • Age: 94
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2020, 08:08:27 PM »
Oh man, you guys are going to have to make changes but I couldn't even suggest where to start.
I find the case example of New Zealand's changes to government structure to be more representative quite inspiring. The USA constitution is a good first draft for modern democracy, but it is telling that subsequent democracies, including those that the US has "set up" such as Japan, do not have the same structure we do. The checks and balances are good on paper, but have evolved to be an agent of dysfunction. A more integrated executive and parliamentary/congressional body with checks by the court would be more stable in my opinion. Ranked choice and proportional voting would also be steps in the right direction.

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7434
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2020, 08:25:18 PM »
Instant runoff voting/ranked choice voting would definitely be a significant improvement over the current first past the post system. In a world with instant runoff voting, we'd likely have had more than two large viable national parties, and if the democrats decided to nominate as terrible a candidate as they picked to run in 2016, it wouldn't risk handing the office of the presidency to another terrible candidate like Trump, because we would have had multiple viable options in the general election.

However, going back to the first post of this thread, I don't see how splitting the head of state/head of government roles does anything to address the challenges we've faced in the past four years. Why would you assume a leader like Trump would be able to be elected head of state but not be able to be elected head of government? Trump's whole "drain the swamp" pitch would seem a much better fit for running for head of government than head of state which seems to usually be occupied by a person selected to belong to the right party and be mostly unobjectionable in those cases where the head of state is elected rather than being born into the role.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Location: Noo Zilind
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2020, 09:27:37 PM »
Oh man, you guys are going to have to make changes but I couldn't even suggest where to start.
I find the case example of New Zealand's changes to government structure to be more representative quite inspiring. The USA constitution is a good first draft for modern democracy, but it is telling that subsequent democracies, including those that the US has "set up" such as Japan, do not have the same structure we do. The checks and balances are good on paper, but have evolved to be an agent of dysfunction. A more integrated executive and parliamentary/congressional body with checks by the court would be more stable in my opinion. Ranked choice and proportional voting would also be steps in the right direction.

Our change to MMP voting has really given the smaller parties a voice, that's for sure. We haven't had a sole party gov (bar the one we just voted in last week) for more than 20 years. Parties have to form a coalition in order to get the numbers, so the tiny parties with one or two seats can actually find themselves in government.

alsoknownasDean

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2851
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2020, 10:39:39 PM »
One thing I find interesting with the electoral process in the US is that it seems as though each state manages the elections for President and Congress rather than this being handled federally.

Surely it'd be harder for voter suppression to occur if this was something that was regulated/operated at a national level (although I guess then the possibility is for these same voter suppression techniques to be replicated nationwide)?

The whole idea of 'winner takes all' for electoral college votes is also a bit unusual. It doesn't really matter if a party wins 51-49 or 95-5, they'll get the entire allocation of delegates for that state.

Are two Senators per state enough? What would be the impact on representation if that was increased? Would this be a moderating force if there's likely to be some Democratic senators from red states and Republican senators from blue states?

Leisured

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 696
  • Age: 79
  • Location: South east Australia, in country
  • Retired, and loving it.
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2020, 05:26:44 AM »
What problem would this solve exactly?  If I understand correctly, you're suggest the U.S. presidency be split into two roles: one largely ceremonial with little or no power, one that has the power to actually do the work of the presidency.  So what happens when you get a "disaster" like Trump that occupies the "prime minister" position?


Under the Westminster system, which we use, mostly, in Australia, it is possible for Parliament to vote in a no confidence motion against the Prime Minister. The American equivalent is for Congress to carry a no confidence motion in the Prime Minister, in which case he would no longer be Prime Minister. The Westminster system does not allow voters to vote for Prime Minister; that is a matter for whatever party the PM comes from. The PM is just another member of parliament, with his own electorate. He has been voted in as leader of his party, and once his/her party wins a majority in an election, the monarch, or in Australia, the Governor General, invites him to form a government. He can be sacked by his own party while PM, as notoriously happened a few times in Australia in recent years.

If America had its own version of Prime Minister, who had his finger on the nuclear button, then if Congress lost confidence in him, they could rewove him from office. He would then 'move to the back bench' (as we say in the W system) in Congress because he still holds an electorate and is still a member of Congress. His party would elect a new leader who would become Prime Minister.






Leisured

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 696
  • Age: 79
  • Location: South east Australia, in country
  • Retired, and loving it.
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2020, 05:32:02 AM »
However, going back to the first post of this thread, I don't see how splitting the head of state/head of government roles does anything to address the challenges we've faced in the past four years. Why would you assume a leader like Trump would be able to be elected head of state but not be able to be elected head of government? Trump's whole "drain the swamp" pitch would seem a much better fit for running for head of government than head of state which seems to usually be occupied by a person selected to belong to the right party and be mostly unobjectionable in those cases where the head of state is elected rather than being born into the role.

See my reply to intellectsucks post. I find your question surprising, because why would you allow a candidate to pick up votes for both POTUS and Prime Minister? Assuming you could vote for the PM, which we cannot do in Australia.


ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2020, 06:45:38 AM »
Citizenship carries "responsibilities" with it. Maybe make that explicit in the "Bill of rights and responsibilities"?

Right now, there is a presumption of "law abiding" citizenship, for example, in the text of the constitution. Those presumptions break down when the President and the Senate and other organs of the society loudly claim that they have "all the rights and none of the responsibilities".

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freeloading
Quote
to impose upon another's generosity or hospitality without sharing in the cost or responsibility involved
e.g. - "I will use the public roads provided to me by the society, but won't wear masks to protect other members of the public".

This libertarian/freeloading mindset has been too endemic and too widespread in our society!! Perhaps a constitution should make it clear that rights don't come without the concomitant responsibilities??


John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2020, 07:16:56 AM »

One thing I find interesting with the electoral process in the US is that it seems as though each state manages the elections for President and Congress rather than this being handled federally.

They do.


AMENDMENT X [1791].

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


The Framers of the Constitution dreaded concentrations of power.

Accordingly, the purpose of   the 10th Amendment  is  dispersion of power  by separating   the powers of the federal government from the powers of the states.

This  dispersion-of-power principle is called federalism.

Under federalism , each of the 50 States have manifold, independent, sovereign powers that include the power to establish rules for the process and administration of federal elections.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2020, 07:36:28 AM »
Citizenship carries "responsibilities" with it. Maybe make that explicit in the "Bill of rights and responsibilities"?



If a Responsibilities Clause were enshrined in the Constitution my proposed preamble to the Bill of Rights would be the perfect location for it.

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7434
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2020, 08:23:58 AM »
However, going back to the first post of this thread, I don't see how splitting the head of state/head of government roles does anything to address the challenges we've faced in the past four years. Why would you assume a leader like Trump would be able to be elected head of state but not be able to be elected head of government? Trump's whole "drain the swamp" pitch would seem a much better fit for running for head of government than head of state which seems to usually be occupied by a person selected to belong to the right party and be mostly unobjectionable in those cases where the head of state is elected rather than being born into the role.

See my reply to intellectsucks post. I find your question surprising, because why would you allow a candidate to pick up votes for both POTUS and Prime Minister? Assuming you could vote for the PM, which we cannot do in Australia.

Well if your argument is to have the head of government elected by congress rather than elected by the members of the country, that's a different revision from splitting the head of state/head of government roles into two different offices. Right now the United States head of government is elected by an indirect popular vote mediated by the electoral college. Since you only mentioned splitting the office so that two different people would have the head of state and head of government responsibilities I assumed we would continue to select each of them using the system we currently use to fill both of those roles. I think that, given the choice to run for a ceremonial role where you're selected based primarily to be unlikely to embarrass your party or offend foreign leaders (head of state) and a role with real power (head of government), a hypothetical future Trump-like candidate would choose the latter rather than the former.

As to making the head of government an office people couldn't vote for but was selected by other members of government, that was part of the original intent of our electoral college. However, we've had two centuries of reforms moving our country towards giving us, its citizens, a more direct voice in choosing our head of government (and head of state, since the two are combined in one office for us). I don't see any appetite here in the states for moving in the opposite direction and giving the american voters less direct say in who ends up running the country than they already have.

Having congress select the head of government, rather than having the head of government selected by the american people would substantially reduce the frequency of divided governments because whenever the house and senate were controlled by one party they would pick a head-of-government from that same party.* A single party has controlled the house, senate, and presidency (which includes the head of government function) for only 4 of the last 14 years. Two of those years of single party control gave us the biggest reform of our healthcare system in my lifetime. The 10 years of divided government have been mostly deadlocked. Most of the time, much less change is possible though. Our system, where agreement between two houses of congress and a head of government who is elected separately from congress in needed to making most changes to government, is intentionally set up to make action more difficult than parliamentary democracies where change requires only the support of the majority a single legislative body and the support of a head of government selected by that same majority of that same legislative body.

One can certainly argue about whether or not the bias towards inaction that is baked into the structure of our particular flavor of democracy is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is an intentional thing (it's a feature, not a bug).

*Although given the current state of our politics it might also mean that when the senate and house were controlled by different parties, as they often are, the office of head of government would often be left empty because they couldn't agree on a candidate. And I don't think we could afford that much additional disfunction.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3770
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2020, 10:06:54 AM »
The issue is that, over time the presidency has assumed more and more power. However there appears to be little checks once the president is elected, to do anything about a mentally unstable, unfit, or rogue president. It seems the only remedy is congress impeaching, or invoking that he is not fit. Howver in this case as the senate is the same party as the president, the senate chose what they felt was best for their party (retaining power) over what was best for the country. Thankfully no bombs were dropped, no wars were started, .

There are still 11 days until Election Day, and 3 months until Inauguration Day. Knock on wood.

Say whatever you want about Trump, not only has he not started any wars, he has actively withdrawn troops and worked diplomatically for more peace in the Middle East than any President in recent memory.

partgypsy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5233
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2020, 11:48:23 AM »
I'm not up on foreign policy as much as many are on here. I do know that our allies are not happy with the current Trump approach. We have civilians caged on our border (not a good look). Also drone strikes and casualties are up significantly over the Obama administration. This is not getting much air time because Trump did away with the Obama reporting civilian casualties rule. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-47480207

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2020, 11:50:30 AM »
All people over the age of 60 should be banned from running for office.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2020, 12:04:18 PM »

 I don't see any appetite here in the states for moving in the opposite direction and giving the american voters less direct say in who ends up running the country than they already have.



Perish the thought of  any such damnable appetite.

America's founding principle of "consent of the governed" as to "who ends up running the country" has been undermined byChevron deference to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who  populate an ever metastisizing  bureaucratic state, the  de facto fourth branch of government.

The bureaucratic state under Chevron deference is inimical to liberty for the reason that   "liberties may now be impaired not by an independent decision-maker seeking to declare the law's meaning as fairly as possible — the decision-maker promised to them by law — but by an avowedly politicized administrative agent seeking to pursue whatever policy whim may rule the day."


I urge more congressional action    that reins in Chevron deference and concerning it, as the guardian of our liberties, a  reinvigoration of  the entire judicial branch's     exercise of its power to "say what the law is," its "province and duty" under Marbury v. Madison, the most important constitutional case which  ACB  rightly declared a super precedent.

When a challenge to Chevron  deference comes before the Court, I expect that  ACB will join with other justices who are of the opinion that "the rise of the modern administrative state has not changed the [Court's]  duty to say what the law is."

If a  rollback of Chevron deference's suffocating excesses  cannot be accomplished legislatively or judicially, the Constitution must be changed to allow  the check of accountability  to do its  work in the numerous agencies of the bureaucratic state.






Wikipedia

The United States House of Representatives in the 115th Congress passed a bill on January 11, 2017, called the "Regulatory Accountability Act of 2017", which, if made into law, would change the doctrine of Chevron deference.[16][17][18]

 According to Charles Murray in By the People: Rebuilding Liberty Without Permission,

Chevron deference augments that characteristic of prerogative power by giving regulatory bureaucrats a pass available to no private citizen and to no other government officials — including the president and cabinet officers — who function outside the regulatory state. For everyone except officials of the regulatory state, judges do not defer to anything except the text of the law in question and the body of case law accompanying it.[19]


Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch (son of Anne Gorsuch, who was head of EPA at the time of the events which led to the Chevron decision) has also written opinions against Chevron deference,[20] with news commentators believing that Gorsuch may rule against Chevron deference on the Supreme Court.[21]

In the U.S. Supreme Court case City of Arlington, Tex. v. FCC, [22] the dissent by Chief Justice Roberts joined by Justice Kennedy and Justice Alito objected to excessive Chevron deference to agencies:

My disagreement with the Court is fundamental. It is also easily expressed: A court should not defer to an agency until the court decides, on its own, that the agency is entitled to deference.[22]:1877

In Chevron U.S.A. Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council Inc., we established a test for reviewing "an agency's construction of the statute which it administers." 467 U.S. 837, 842, 104 S.Ct. 2778, 81 L.Ed.2d 694 (1984). If Congress has "directly spoken to the precise question at issue," we said, "that is the end of the matter." Ibid. A contrary agency interpretation must give way.[22]:1878

"It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177, 2 L.Ed. 60 (1803). The rise of the modern administrative state has not changed that duty. Indeed, the Administrative Procedure Act, governing judicial review of most agency action, instructs reviewing courts to decide "all relevant questions of law." 5 U.S.C. § 706.[22]:1880

Likewise before joining the U.S. Supreme Court, 10th Circuit Judge Gorsuch in his concurrence in Gutierrez-Brizuela v. Lynch [23] also objected to excessive Chevron deference to agencies:

Quite literally then, after this court declared the statutes' meaning and issued a final decision, an executive agency was permitted to (and did) tell us to reverse our decision like some sort of super court of appeals. If that doesn't qualify as an unconstitutional revision of a judicial declaration of the law by a political branch, I confess I begin to wonder whether we've forgotten what might.[23]:1150

In the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) Congress vested the courts with the power to "interpret ... statutory provisions" and overturn agency action inconsistent with those interpretations. 5 U.S.C. § 706.[23]:1151

For whatever the agency may be doing under Chevron, the problem remains that courts are not fulfilling their duty to interpret the law and declare invalid agency actions inconsistent with those interpretations in the cases and controversies that come before them. A duty expressly assigned to them by the APA and one often likely compelled by the Constitution itself. That's a problem for the judiciary. And it is a problem for the people whose liberties may now be impaired not by an independent decisionmaker seeking to declare the law's meaning as fairly as possible — the decisionmaker promised to them by law — but by an avowedly politicized administrative agent seeking to pursue whatever policy whim may rule the day.[23]:1152–1153
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 12:42:26 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Fishindude

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3075
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2020, 12:08:22 PM »
The U.S. constitution is fine the way it is (except MAYBE term limits for Congress).

Amen !

katsiki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
  • Age: 43
  • Location: La.
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2020, 01:03:43 PM »
All people over the age of 60 should be banned from running for office.

Why?  Do you think they are mentally defective after 60?  I know many 60+ people who have better mental capacity, experience and decision-making capabilities than their younger counterparts.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7263
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2020, 01:46:45 PM »
Constitutional amendments require the support of two-thirds of both houses of Congress, plus three-quarters of the state legislatures. Strong bipartisan support is therefore a prerequisite. As long as you have one party (with support of a large minority of voters) who thinks the current president is doing a great job, any amendments meant to prevent future presidents from abusing their power in the same way will be dead upon arrival.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20808
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2020, 04:27:35 PM »
All people over the age of 60 should be banned from running for office.

What happened to "never trust anyone over 30"?

I know really healthy 80 year olds and really unhealthy 50 year olds.  I think limiting terms makes more sense.  The US Senate (elected) seems to have people in there as long as our (appointed) senators are, or longer.  The US Congress seems to have more turnover, just as our House of Commons does.

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7434
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2020, 04:42:17 PM »
The US Senate (elected) seems to have people in there as long as our (appointed) senators are, or longer.  The US Congress seems to have more turnover, just as our House of Commons does.

It's not actually that different between the two chambers here in the USA.

After the most recent congressional elections (2018) the average senator has been on the job for about 10 years and the average representative for about 9 years. Two years later that is presumably up to about 12 years and about 11 years respectively, but should drop a bit again after the new congress, reflecting losses in the election and retirements, takes over in January.

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2020, 04:43:22 PM »
All people over the age of 60 should be banned from running for office.

However, if they can convince other people to "draft" them into office, they can serve.

:)

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2020, 05:02:48 PM »
What problem would this solve exactly?  If I understand correctly, you're suggest the U.S. presidency be split into two roles: one largely ceremonial with little or no power, one that has the power to actually do the work of the presidency.  So what happens when you get a "disaster" like Trump that occupies the "prime minister" position?


Under the Westminster system, which we use, mostly, in Australia, it is possible for Parliament to vote in a no confidence motion against the Prime Minister. The American equivalent is for Congress to carry a no confidence motion in the Prime Minister, in which case he would no longer be Prime Minister. The Westminster system does not allow voters to vote for Prime Minister; that is a matter for whatever party the PM comes from. The PM is just another member of parliament, with his own electorate. He has been voted in as leader of his party, and once his/her party wins a majority in an election, the monarch, or in Australia, the Governor General, invites him to form a government. He can be sacked by his own party while PM, as notoriously happened a few times in Australia in recent years.

If America had its own version of Prime Minister, who had his finger on the nuclear button, then if Congress lost confidence in him, they could rewove him from office. He would then 'move to the back bench' (as we say in the W system) in Congress because he still holds an electorate and is still a member of Congress. His party would elect a new leader who would become Prime Minister.

LOL - ''the American equivalent is for Congress to carry a no confidence motion in the Prime Minister"

Just to check: Do you realize you're asking us to adopt an entire new form of government, which we'd find really confusing?

While instead, if we just changed our Electoral College thingy to direct election, we'd be simplifying a minor procedure that most of us think is weird anyway?

You watch. Just changing the Electoral College will be a big ol' deal, mate. You want us to adopt PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY???

(heh heh. I am told Australians like humor. We shall see... :))

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2020, 05:31:38 PM »
All people over the age of 60 should be banned from running for office.

Why?  Do you think they are mentally defective after 60?  I know many 60+ people who have better mental capacity, experience and decision-making capabilities than their younger counterparts.

Nah, nothing to do with health at all. (It's around 80 when a large percentage of people start to display obvious mental problems and the more seriously limiting physical ailments.)

But if you want to limit stagnant/entrenched career politicians, having a hard age cut-off of 60 is a good way to do it.  It would force much more regular turn-over than we currently see and I suspect would cause more new ideas to be voiced.  The current (extremely aged) politicians are a generation and a half to two generations removed from reality on average.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2020, 05:37:30 PM »
I'm a little curious.

What are the common problems with parliamentary democracies that you guys (Auzzies/Canucks/Brits/other Europeans) see?

If there is no clear majority, then the governments would need to often form based on coalition horse trading. Doesn't this engender further cynicism in the population about the government?

BoJo was a prime minister and was enacting drastic policy changes before he had any election mandate. I'm sure similar situations would likely be very common (I remember Japan had 6 different PMs in 6 years between 2006 and 2012). Doesn't the population lose faith in the government when such stuff happen?

In the US the gridlock in politics reflects polarization in the population. The people are getting exactly the kind of leadership and government they deserve!! Isn't it even more of a problem when the government is further removed from what and who people vote for? I know I'm personally pretty p*ssed at unelected federalist-society-judges modifying the US constitution at their whim!! I'm not sure I'd like BoJo enacting drastic policy changes without any elected mandates either!!

If it does not cause a big problem, how do you avoid it??

« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 05:43:26 PM by ctuser1 »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2020, 05:51:09 PM »
If there is no clear majority, then the governments would need to often form based on coalition horse trading. Doesn't this engender further cynicism in the population about the government?

Meh.

A minority government means it's harder for the government to really govern without the agreement of other parties.  Best case this acts to have a bit of a moderating effect on decisions made, worst case it is paralyzing to the government.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2020, 06:45:00 PM »
Constitutional amendments require the support of two-thirds of both houses of Congress, plus three-quarters of the state legislatures. Strong bipartisan support is therefore a prerequisite.

What is your opinion of an amendment to the Constitution that bars repeal of any Court-established or enshrined fundamental right?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23238
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2020, 06:48:58 PM »
Constitutional amendments require the support of two-thirds of both houses of Congress, plus three-quarters of the state legislatures. Strong bipartisan support is therefore a prerequisite.

What is your opinion of an amendment to the Constitution that bars repeal of any Court-established or enshrined fundamental right?

Sounds super shitty.

Dred Scott for example would have enshrined the right to slavery.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20808
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2020, 08:23:33 PM »
If there is no clear majority, then the governments would need to often form based on coalition horse trading. Doesn't this engender further cynicism in the population about the government?

Meh.

A minority government means it's harder for the government to really govern without the agreement of other parties.  Best case this acts to have a bit of a moderating effect on decisions made, worst case it is paralyzing to the government.

Health care came in on a minority government. 

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20808
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2020, 08:30:05 PM »
All people over the age of 60 should be banned from running for office.

Why?  Do you think they are mentally defective after 60?  I know many 60+ people who have better mental capacity, experience and decision-making capabilities than their younger counterparts.

Nah, nothing to do with health at all. (It's around 80 when a large percentage of people start to display obvious mental problems and the more seriously limiting physical ailments.)

But if you want to limit stagnant/entrenched career politicians, having a hard age cut-off of 60 is a good way to do it.  It would force much more regular turn-over than we currently see and I suspect would cause more new ideas to be voiced.  The current (extremely aged) politicians are a generation and a half to two generations removed from reality on average.

Our present government is relatively young.  What bugs me isn't old politicians, it's politicians who have never done anything else. 

A lot of the older women I  know have become more radical with age.  We don't have jobs and kids to worry about, we aren't worrying about being in style, we are free to focus on wider issues.  And we vote.

You want age and experience and seen it all in politicians?  Elect older women, not older men.   ;-)

MoseyingAlong

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 417
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2020, 02:12:55 AM »
....
Our present government is relatively young.  What bugs me isn't old politicians, it's politicians who have never done anything else. 
....

+1
I wish all politicians had somewhat recent experience operating under the laws they've enacted and the current conditions most residents deal with. Either as employees or running a business or a home.  Maybe something like no more than 12-years in office and then you have to be out for 10-20 years before running again.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Location: Noo Zilind
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2020, 04:44:36 AM »
I'm a little curious.

What are the common problems with parliamentary democracies that you guys (Auzzies/Canucks/Brits/other Europeans) see?

If there is no clear majority, then the governments would need to often form based on coalition horse trading. Doesn't this engender further cynicism in the population about the government?

BoJo was a prime minister and was enacting drastic policy changes before he had any election mandate. I'm sure similar situations would likely be very common (I remember Japan had 6 different PMs in 6 years between 2006 and 2012). Doesn't the population lose faith in the government when such stuff happen?

In the US the gridlock in politics reflects polarization in the population. The people are getting exactly the kind of leadership and government they deserve!! Isn't it even more of a problem when the government is further removed from what and who people vote for? I know I'm personally pretty p*ssed at unelected federalist-society-judges modifying the US constitution at their whim!! I'm not sure I'd like BoJo enacting drastic policy changes without any elected mandates either!!

If it does not cause a big problem, how do you avoid it??

Coalition governments work because there are far more parties in the mix - ie not just two biggies with polar opposite ideals. So, for instance, our left leaning Labour party
would hook up with the left leaning Greens and maybe a center leaning party as well. They're obviously not going to mesh well with a right leaning party. All parties in the coalition have their own
priorities, but they each work to limit the bigger and more extreme ideas of the others. What you end up with is a compromise, and that's something that represents the wishes of more voters
than one extreme party being able t do whatever it likes. No one gets everything they want, but everyone gets something they want.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Location: Noo Zilind
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2020, 04:49:21 AM »
The issue is that, over time the presidency has assumed more and more power. However there appears to be little checks once the president is elected, to do anything about a mentally unstable, unfit, or rogue president. It seems the only remedy is congress impeaching, or invoking that he is not fit. Howver in this case as the senate is the same party as the president, the senate chose what they felt was best for their party (retaining power) over what was best for the country. Thankfully no bombs were dropped, no wars were started, .

There are still 11 days until Election Day, and 3 months until Inauguration Day. Knock on wood.

Say whatever you want about Trump, not only has he not started any wars, he has actively withdrawn troops and worked diplomatically for more peace in the Middle East than any President in recent memory.

He's effectively started a nice long drawn out civil war. Congratulations on that one. The only real reason he's not started wars internationally is that every other country is kinda busy with a pandemic.

Leisured

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 696
  • Age: 79
  • Location: South east Australia, in country
  • Retired, and loving it.
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2020, 05:11:15 AM »
Thank you all for your replies.

A Head of State has the glory but not the power, and the Head of Government has the power but not the glory. I accept the hurdles that make Constitutional reform unlikely, but one can still dream.

The W system has two Houses, as does the US Congress. In Australia, the Lower House, the equivalent of the UK House of Commons, is the only House that can initiate legislation. The Upper House, equivalent to the House of Lords, is known as a House of review, that is it can only amend or block legislation. I am not sure, but I think the same applies in The US.

In Australia the Prime Minister (Head of Government) is the leader of the majority party, and any motion of no confidence is purely a matter for the Lower House, and is of no concern for the Upper House.

I did not mean to imply that I did not support the idea of the people electing the Prime Minister (Head of Government), but I point out that if the House of Reps in the US Congress vote a H of G this need not be a problem, so long as the Senate is not part of the election, in the event of one party controlling one house and another party controlling the Senate.



maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7434
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2020, 08:07:17 AM »
The W system has two Houses, as does the US Congress. In Australia, the Lower House, the equivalent of the UK House of Commons, is the only House that can initiate legislation. The Upper House, equivalent to the House of Lords, is known as a House of review, that is it can only amend or block legislation. I am not sure, but I think the same applies in The US.

I didn't know much about Australia'a upper house. I knew about the UK's, but it was a house of lords and Australia doesn't have nobility, and the house of lords seems more and more a vestigial part of government in that country. I apologize. After reading up on the Australian senate, I would say you folks probably have a much "americanized" upper house than many countries to which the british system was exported. You actually elect your senators (and I like the proportional representation system you use to do so), and they seem to be pretty active, while the canadian senate is appointed and rejects bills only rarely, adhering more closely to the trajectory of the house of lords back in the UK.

However, I would still say our senate here in the USA is still a very different animal. Either our house or senate can initiate and amend legislation. Technically there is a rule that any bill has to do with creating new revenue has to originate in the house. But the senate has long gotten around this by taking a revenue bill passed by the house and "amending" it by replacing all the the house text with a new bill. So the two houses are roughly co-equal in power, with the senate having some special powers (the one which decides whether or not to remove a president from power after impeachment, the one that has to sign off on any new appointee to the supreme court).

I think a lot of the miscommunications in this thread are because the US and British systems use a lot of the same words to describe parts of our political systems but those same words actually mean different things in our different systems.

I did not mean to imply that I did not support the idea of the people electing the Prime Minister (Head of Government), but I point out that if the House of Reps in the US Congress vote a H of G this need not be a problem, so long as the Senate is not part of the election, in the event of one party controlling one house and another party controlling the Senate.

We actually do have certain situations where the House of Representatives pick our president. It is within the realm of possibility that the outcome of the election in nine days will trigger ones of those criteria if the election ends in a tie or enough states elections collapse without a result that no candidate ends up with 270 electoral votes.

If it does come to pass, my prediction is that we will indeed see a constitutional amendment. Specifically one that changes the rules that govern how we handle presidential elections where no candidate gets a majority of the electoral votes. The current rules have been used only a handful of times, haven't been used in more than a century, and are extremely vulnerable to deadlock, and in the event of a deadlock we'd likely end up with a president nobody voted into that office (Pence or Harris).

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3770
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2020, 08:26:21 AM »
The issue is that, over time the presidency has assumed more and more power. However there appears to be little checks once the president is elected, to do anything about a mentally unstable, unfit, or rogue president. It seems the only remedy is congress impeaching, or invoking that he is not fit. Howver in this case as the senate is the same party as the president, the senate chose what they felt was best for their party (retaining power) over what was best for the country. Thankfully no bombs were dropped, no wars were started, .

There are still 11 days until Election Day, and 3 months until Inauguration Day. Knock on wood.

Say whatever you want about Trump, not only has he not started any wars, he has actively withdrawn troops and worked diplomatically for more peace in the Middle East than any President in recent memory.

He's effectively started a nice long drawn out civil war. Congratulations on that one. The only real reason he's not started wars internationally is that every other country is kinda busy with a pandemic.

First of all, the Left basically tried a coup (see 3 years of manufactured “OMG Russia” culminating in impeachment) because Trump committed the grave offense of beating Her Highness the Chosen One and the Left had a tantrum over it. If anyone kicked off a civil war it was the left.

Second, Trump had three full years of his administration pre-Covid without starting any any wars and was notable for its lack of sending troops hardly anywhere.


I don’t really like the dude either but really?  The TDS is just oozing out your post.

OzzieandHarriet

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2020, 08:39:29 AM »
The issue is that, over time the presidency has assumed more and more power. However there appears to be little checks once the president is elected, to do anything about a mentally unstable, unfit, or rogue president. It seems the only remedy is congress impeaching, or invoking that he is not fit. Howver in this case as the senate is the same party as the president, the senate chose what they felt was best for their party (retaining power) over what was best for the country. Thankfully no bombs were dropped, no wars were started, .

There are still 11 days until Election Day, and 3 months until Inauguration Day. Knock on wood.

Say whatever you want about Trump, not only has he not started any wars, he has actively withdrawn troops and worked diplomatically for more peace in the Middle East than any President in recent memory.

He's effectively started a nice long drawn out civil war. Congratulations on that one. The only real reason he's not started wars internationally is that every other country is kinda busy with a pandemic.

First of all, the Left basically tried a coup (see 3 years of manufactured “OMG Russia” culminating in impeachment) because Trump committed the grave offense of beating Her Highness the Chosen One and the Left had a tantrum over it. If anyone kicked off a civil war it was the left.

Second, Trump had three full years of his administration pre-Covid without starting any any wars and was notable for its lack of sending troops hardly anywhere.


I don’t really like the dude either but really?  The TDS is just oozing out your post.

Umm, maybe I’m naive, but he was impeached because he broke the law. Some people seem to have HDS (Hillary Derangement Syndrome).

scottish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2716
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2020, 08:58:49 AM »
Trump was impeached because he tried to influence peddle members of the Ukrainian government to provide damaging narratives about Joe Biden in the upcoming election.   It didn't have anything to do with Hillary Clinton, did it?

I think it's a bit of a reach to blame Trump for the ongoing rift between the so called "left" and the so called "right" in the states.     He can and does fan the flames, but I'm pretty sure there was something burning here before he became president.    Do you all Americans really view your fellow citizens this way?      Treating each other with contempt is a really bad sign.


maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7434
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2020, 09:07:40 AM »
I think it's a bit of a reach to blame Trump for the ongoing rift between the so called "left" and the so called "right" in the states.     He can and does fan the flames, but I'm pretty sure there was something burning here before he became president.    Do you all Americans really view your fellow citizens this way?      Treating each other with contempt is a really bad sign.

If I had to guess I'd say 10-20% of the population on each side of politics has fallen into the view of people voting for the other side as the enemy. So call it 20-40% of the total population. Probably towards the lower end, a lot of people just don't pay attention to politics at all.

I agree with you that it is a really bad sign. The recent rise and greater acceptance of the view that not being vocal in support of one side of politics is tantamount to being an avowed opponent is similarly a bad sign for our ability to hold this whole thing together.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2020, 09:28:56 AM »



I wish all politicians had somewhat recent experience operating under the laws they've enacted and the current conditions most residents deal with. Either as employees or running a business or a home. 


+1

The pols are sorely in need of the education you prescribe.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2020, 09:54:01 AM »
Trump was impeached because he tried to influence peddle members of the Ukrainian government to provide damaging narratives about Joe Biden in the upcoming election.   It didn't have anything to do with Hillary Clinton, did it?

I think it's a bit of a reach to blame Trump for the ongoing rift between the so called "left" and the so called "right" in the states.     He can and does fan the flames, but I'm pretty sure there was something burning here before he became president.    Do you all Americans really view your fellow citizens this way?      Treating each other with contempt is a really bad sign.

Speaking of "something burning," if Biden wins and Democrats maintain their majority in  the House and win a majority in the Senate, some militant Democratic Party activists  will be infuriated if one-party control of the political branches by Democrats does not result in near immediate implementation of the activists' agenda.

Under this scenario,  although  the militant activists  got the overwhelming win they sought  they may become even angrier than before the election so there is no postelection assurance of decreased   burning/looting/vandalism  in cities.



« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 09:58:49 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

Sid Hoffman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Southwest USA
Re: Changing the US Constitution after Trump
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2020, 10:57:48 AM »
The only change that will make people happy is going the way of the European Union: single currency, but totally separate nations. Each state becomes its own country, makes its own laws with the limited oversight of the NAU (North American Union).

Canada can join too then, though there would have to be something similar to the EEC for Canada, Mexico, and others who have separate currencies but want in the same free trade and travel zone.