Poll

Which party are you voting for?

Conservatives
14 (18.4%)
Greens
7 (9.2%)
Liberals
30 (39.5%)
NDP
18 (23.7%)
Other
7 (9.2%)

Total Members Voted: 75

Voting closed: October 19, 2015, 07:48:31 AM

Author Topic: Canadian General Election  (Read 45701 times)

choppingwood

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2015, 04:34:30 PM »
On the niqab issue -- which for some of us is the thing that finally makes the Harper Conservatives go from Tolerable Unpleasantness to Repulsive Power-mad Dirtbags -- this is a more fun take:

http://niqabsofducanada.tumblr.com

Oh, my, I'm still going to be laughing about this next week.

SoftwareGoddess

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 128
  • Location: Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2015, 04:54:15 PM »
I got this viewpoint second hand, and from only one person, so I really would love to hear/read a first-hand account of a Canadian woman who wears the niqab.

There was an interview with Zunera Ishaq on The Current today which might interest you:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-october-8-2015-1.3262082/why-zunera-ishaq-fought-for-her-niqab-and-became-an-election-issue-1.3262092

Prairie Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2015, 06:45:15 AM »
I have voted NDP all my adult life, but with their promise that they will repeal the TFSA back to $5500, I am not happy with them. The Liberals are saying the same thing, and I will not vote PC. Thinking of writing "None of the above" on my ballot.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18130
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2015, 07:19:02 AM »
With the whole veil thing... I think the only relevant point is that a person, in some situations, needs to be identified. You can't wear a balaclava into a bank, for example. I think the various muslim dress levels are the same - if you are in a place that requires, for security purposes, your face to be visible, it's ok. In the sweet shop or supermarket? Not really. Anywhere you need to show ID? Then absolutely you need to show your face.

If you're becoming a citizen, you need to prove you are you. If you are voting, ditto. If you're walking down the street, not at all.

Here's the thing though . . .  Women are already required to prove their identity when getting citizenship.  They have to remove any facial covering in private with someone before the citizenship ceremony.  Harper wants them to have to be barefaced at the public ceremonial bit afterwards where they take a vow.  Harper's government refused to allow the women to be barefaced in a separate ceremony with only women present.

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3555
  • Location: France
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2015, 10:44:57 AM »
With the whole veil thing... I think the only relevant point is that a person, in some situations, needs to be identified. You can't wear a balaclava into a bank, for example. I think the various muslim dress levels are the same - if you are in a place that requires, for security purposes, your face to be visible, it's ok. In the sweet shop or supermarket? Not really. Anywhere you need to show ID? Then absolutely you need to show your face.

If you're becoming a citizen, you need to prove you are you. If you are voting, ditto. If you're walking down the street, not at all.

Here's the thing though . . .  Women are already required to prove their identity when getting citizenship.  They have to remove any facial covering in private with someone before the citizenship ceremony.  Harper wants them to have to be barefaced at the public ceremonial bit afterwards where they take a vow.  Harper's government refused to allow the women to be barefaced in a separate ceremony with only women present.

Ok. Disagree with that, then. There should be no requirement for separate ceremonies (that's sexist), as long as they are the person getting the citizenship and that's been verified then they can stand with a cooler over their head and nothing else on for all I care.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2046
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2015, 03:39:42 PM »
This article describes my feelings about the niqab debate much more eloquently than I will ever be able to express them.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/a-man-and-his-bear-walk-into-a-bar/article26757534/

Shinplaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Location: up in Canada complaining about the weather
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2015, 06:21:06 PM »
Mr. SP was born and lived in the Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia in those days) until he was a teenager.  He says listening to Harper is bringing back memories of living under the Russian boot.  Whenever Harper opens his mouth right now, I am ashamed that he is a Canadian.   Hearing that he spent $$$$$ deciding that this was the wedge issue he would introduce makes me loathe him even more.  Which I didn't think was possible.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15526
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2015, 05:17:23 AM »
Thanksgiving weekend, I am taking a break.  Gardens to start getting ready for winter, turkeys to roast, pies to bake.  Hard decisions to make - apple jelly or cranberry sauce or both?  Orange juice in the cranberry sauce or not?  And of course, give thanks for our wonderful country, and think about how we can keep it safe from bears in bars and the people who think a bear in a bar is a good thing.

This article describes my feelings about the niqab debate much more eloquently than I will ever be able to express them.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/a-man-and-his-bear-walk-into-a-bar/article26757534/

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2015, 07:13:46 AM »
Mr. SP was born and lived in the Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia in those days) until he was a teenager.  He says listening to Harper is bringing back memories of living under the Russian boot.  Whenever Harper opens his mouth right now, I am ashamed that he is a Canadian.   Hearing that he spent $$$$$ deciding that this was the wedge issue he would introduce makes me loathe him even more.  Which I didn't think was possible.

Wow. The more clueless ranting I hear from the left, the more I become convinced that Liberalism is a mental disease. MOD NOTE: Again, attack an argument, not a position as per our forum rules and be respectful of other posters.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:43:17 AM by swick »

YK-Phil

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Location: Yellowknife NWT
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2015, 10:05:17 AM »
Mr. SP was born and lived in the Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia in those days) until he was a teenager.  He says listening to Harper is bringing back memories of living under the Russian boot.  Whenever Harper opens his mouth right now, I am ashamed that he is a Canadian.   Hearing that he spent $$$$$ deciding that this was the wedge issue he would introduce makes me loathe him even more.  Which I didn't think was possible.

Wow. The more clueless ranting I hear from the left, the more I become convinced that Liberalism is a mental disease.

Once again, like in other threads, you go right to insulting other people who don't share your views without bringing any valid argument to support your assertion and position.

Shinplaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Location: up in Canada complaining about the weather
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2015, 10:16:03 AM »
Mr. SP was born and lived in the Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia in those days) until he was a teenager.  He says listening to Harper is bringing back memories of living under the Russian boot.  Whenever Harper opens his mouth right now, I am ashamed that he is a Canadian.   Hearing that he spent $$$$$ deciding that this was the wedge issue he would introduce makes me loathe him even more.  Which I didn't think was possible.

Wow. The more clueless ranting I hear from the left, the more I become convinced that Liberalism is a mental disease.

Spoken as one of Harper's core constituents.  I'll agree to disagree, and leave you to the insults and name calling as usual. 

As an aside, I have never said that I was a big "L" Liberal.  I am just a reasonably intelligent person who is concerned for the direction our country is heading.  As we all should be, no matter who you support.   You do understand that is the point of democracy, and a citizen's right and duty?  To have reasoned discussions, and hold our leaders accountable? 

Goldielocks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6969
  • Location: BC
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2015, 10:17:03 AM »
I've read this remark elsewhere and agree: trying to decide which party to vote for in this election is like trying to decide which STD is right for you.

+100

And my riding is a new split this year with unknown candidates.

My DD is taking socials and had to research the parties.  So I too am going back to the drawing board to learn what each is promising.

Conservatives have benefitted me financially... At last after long delayedtax promises, but have been eliminating scientific research funding and suppressing study findings..   And the recent candidate on CBC radio was an ASS in his comments about how to move ahead with First Nations.


Oh, and the 'just not ready' negative advertising...  I saw Justin on Question period last year and my thought was that he was close to the best speaker I had seen there, right at the top of skill and leadership, so seeing the blatantly wrong ' Just not ready' at the top of all propaganda, makes me immediately discount the rest.

Liberals will cost me a lot of money in taxes, though, and N DP is too often 'say one thing and do another' (see Zikoris' comment).  So back to basic research.

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2015, 10:44:50 AM »
Mr. SP was born and lived in the Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia in those days) until he was a teenager.  He says listening to Harper is bringing back memories of living under the Russian boot.  Whenever Harper opens his mouth right now, I am ashamed that he is a Canadian.   Hearing that he spent $$$$$ deciding that this was the wedge issue he would introduce makes me loathe him even more.  Which I didn't think was possible.

Wow. The more clueless ranting I hear from the left, the more I become convinced that Liberalism is a mental disease.

Once again, like in other threads, you go right to insulting other people who don't share your views without bringing any valid argument to support your assertion and position.

Anyone who compares Canada to the Czech Republic should have their mental capacity questioned.
[MOD EDIT: Quite enough of that.]
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 11:03:39 AM by FrugalToque »

Goldielocks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6969
  • Location: BC
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2015, 10:50:11 AM »
A bit of research on my local candidates background...

NDP - PhD professor in sociology...  Probably a great guy, but academic types and politics should not mix IMO.

Green - used car salesman ( literally). At least that is more green than selling new cars..

Liberal- Smart, driven attorney, former athlete.  Oh, and she happens to be effectively blind.

Conservative-  lawyer, grandmother, was a working mom to 4 kids. Returning candidate.

kathrynd

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 412
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2015, 11:15:30 AM »
I haven't voted for a few years...but decided I would this year.
My father always said, "If you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain".

My problem was, I don't follow politics a lot, so was unsure who to vote  for.
I can across  this quiz, which determines which party matches your convictions.

This is the quiz link http://canada.isidewith.com/

I was surprised who I matched with....because it wasn't who I thought it was.
That is who I voted for yesterday, at the advanced polling station.

tardis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
  • Location: Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2015, 11:56:22 AM »
As a younger person, I would just love to have the option of a leader who is interested in supporting science/innovation/arts and has some sort of vision for the longer term future (I understand why they don't focus on this, but it would be nice).  Canada is a resource rich, well educated country that somehow wants to think it's future is in traditional large scale manufacturing and extraction, when there are a lot of additional avenues for success we can pursue. What I hear now sounds like piecemeal bits of policy that are not part of a larger plan that are targeted at fairly small or specific groups of people with one or two year long time frames.

lostamonkey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 450
  • Location: Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2015, 12:07:27 PM »
I have changed my mind through the campaign.

I was originally going to vote for the Tories because I like having $10K in TFSA room annually and thought Harper was an okay prime minister.

The whole niquab, Muslim tip line things just seems like suttle racism to me which really annoys me. I also didn't like how Harper handled the refugee crisis. I also like that the liberals are reducing the middle class tax bracket from 22% to 20.5%, and I prefer the liberal proposed child benefits to the conservative child benefits. So I will be voting for the Liberals.

Russ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Boulder, CO
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2015, 08:17:49 PM »
I went to a Green Party karaoke dig last night. I was just there to sing though

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2015, 04:11:28 PM »
The whole niquab, Muslim tip line things just seems like suttle racism to me which really annoys me.

Muslim isn't a race.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18130
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2015, 06:42:44 AM »
The whole niquab, Muslim tip line things just seems like suttle racism to me which really annoys me.

Muslim isn't a race.

I think what was intended was the following:

Quote
The whole niquab/Muslim tip line is evidence of bigotry, which really annoys me.


Hope that clears up any confusion for you.

lostamonkey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 450
  • Location: Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2015, 07:20:10 AM »
The whole niquab, Muslim tip line things just seems like suttle racism to me which really annoys me.

Muslim isn't a race.

I think what was intended was the following:

Quote
The whole niquab/Muslim tip line is evidence of bigotry, which really annoys me.

That's exactly what I intended.


Hope that clears up any confusion for you.

Ottawa

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1031
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2015, 07:38:07 AM »
In a week's time we may be waking up (for those who didn't stay up late the night before) to a new landscape.  Should we extrapolate from the current Mustachian Poll results?  Yes, of course :-)

Currently our poll shows:

Libs - 34.5%
NDP - 31%
Cons - 17.2%
Greens - 8.6%
Other - 8.6%

The CBC poll tracker shows:
Libs - 34.2%
Cons - 31.7%
NDP - 23.4%
Greens - 4.8%
Other - 6%

Alright then, we all agree.  Liberal minority. 

Brief analysis: NDP will support.  Will probably last a couple years.  Possible Liberal majority follows from there if they follow through on some of their promises.  Will likely alter C-51 to be more moderate...  In reality, much will depend on where the world takes our economy and whether the Libs ride a good or bad economic wave...

Cons likely to be down and out for some time.  They have lost a lot of their senior cabinet over the year and Harper will be out.  Who will they choose for next leader?  McKay?  Baird? 

Mr Money Mutton Chops

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2015, 08:38:57 AM »
I wish there was a decline to vote option. All of these candidates suck.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15526
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2015, 09:19:17 AM »
I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving Weekend, full of family and fun and good food.

Early poll turnout was higher than for the last election, and apparently more first time voters.  How much is interest in the election, and how much was the convenience of voting on a holiday weekend?  I suppose we shall know a week today!

I haven't heard Harper's new ad, where he says something along the line of "you may not like me, but you should vote for me because I am the best candidate".  Maybe it isn't that we don't like him personally, but that many are not too happy with his policies?  And since his reputation is that he is a micromanager, and his PMO is the most powerful one yet, this government is him in a way that has not been true of others.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15526
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada

Shinplaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Location: up in Canada complaining about the weather
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2015, 03:29:40 PM »
No comment.  Basically because the mind boggles.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harpers-election-ad-about-mentally-ill-father-interferes-with-justice-system-lawyers/article26765550/

Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it is just wrong to manipulate it for votes.

Harper's ad that "it's not about me" is almost funny.  Of course it's about you - you've made it the "party of one", and now you get to own it.    I will be glad when this election is over.  I am tired of Mr. SP shouting at the TV, even though I remind him they can't hear him.  :p    All candidates have said things that make us scratch our heads, or sigh, but the length has actually helped to understand the platforms/personalities better.  I don't think that was what Harper intended. 

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15526
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2015, 03:59:11 PM »
Early voter turnout is high.  Apparently the youth vote is higher, and the polls at universities and youth centers did well.  Students home for Thanksgiving probably found it easier to vote as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/elections-canada-says-3-6-million-votes-cast-during-advance-polls-1.3269393

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2015, 04:13:24 PM »
The whole niquab, Muslim tip line things just seems like suttle racism to me which really annoys me.

Muslim isn't a race.

I think what was intended was the following:

Quote
The whole niquab/Muslim tip line is evidence of bigotry, which really annoys me.

That's exactly what I intended.


Hope that clears up any confusion for you.

Actually, it doesn't.

In every country where Muslim is the majority, women are oppressed and being gay is often punishable by death. Women are not wearing the niqab in those countries by choice...they have NO choice. Gay people must keep quiet or they will be killed.

Therefore, I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canada's immigration policy.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 04:17:12 PM by music lover »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18130
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2015, 04:50:01 PM »
Agreed.  I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canadian policy.  Harper is an evangelical Christian.  Which is a group of people with stone age beliefs, and a history of oppressing the human rights of others.  His personal holy war against another group of people with different beliefs doesn't make his bigotry more palatable.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2046
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2015, 04:56:13 PM »
I don't think we want Islam extremists to make any Canadian policies.   In fact, I don't want any religious extremists making policies.   

The point is whether or not you can wear a niqab to work.   I don't like niqabs myself, and I don't think highly of the symbolism, but if you can do your job, go ahead and wear a niqab at work.   It's your life after all.

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2015, 04:59:45 PM »
Agreed.  I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canadian policy.  Harper is an evangelical Christian.  Which is a group of people with stone age beliefs, and a history of oppressing the human rights of others.  His personal holy war against another group of people with different beliefs doesn't make his bigotry more palatable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. Christian or atheist, most people are on the same side of this issue. Anyone who truly believes in freedom is also on the same side.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18130
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2015, 05:24:58 PM »
Agreed.  I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canadian policy.  Harper is an evangelical Christian.  Which is a group of people with stone age beliefs, and a history of oppressing the human rights of others.  His personal holy war against another group of people with different beliefs doesn't make his bigotry more palatable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. Christian or atheist, most people are on the same side of this issue. Anyone who truly believes in freedom is also on the same side.

This absolutely has to do with Christians and their reaction to another religion.  Most atheists I know aren't terribly happy with any religion being firmly entrenched in politics . . . and the only one in Canada that this is true for is Christianity.  How many of our Prime Minister's poor decisions were religiously motivated by his 'stone age' beliefs (as you put it)?  It's interesting that you appear to have no problem supporting one religion over another.

How can anyone truly believe in freedom while denying a countryman the ability to wear clothing of his or her choice?  That requires some next level doublethink . . .
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 05:29:51 PM by GuitarStv »

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2015, 05:41:15 AM »
Agreed.  I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canadian policy.  Harper is an evangelical Christian.  Which is a group of people with stone age beliefs, and a history of oppressing the human rights of others.  His personal holy war against another group of people with different beliefs doesn't make his bigotry more palatable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. Christian or atheist, most people are on the same side of this issue. Anyone who truly believes in freedom is also on the same side.

This absolutely has to do with Christians and their reaction to another religion.  Most atheists I know aren't terribly happy with any religion being firmly entrenched in politics . . . and the only one in Canada that this is true for is Christianity.  How many of our Prime Minister's poor decisions were religiously motivated by his 'stone age' beliefs (as you put it)?  It's interesting that you appear to have no problem supporting one religion over another.

How can anyone truly believe in freedom while denying a countryman the ability to wear clothing of his or her choice?  That requires some next level doublethink . . .

NO ONE is denying people the right to wear the clothing of their choice. Please stop repeating that lie.

All that people want is for those who are pledging allegiance to Canada do so without their face being hidden. After that, they are free to hide their face.

And, by the way...they are not our "countrymen" until after they pledge allegiance. And, please don't be so na´ve as to suggest that women in oppressed countries are wearing burqas as a matter of "choice". There is no choice in those countries.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18130
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2015, 06:17:00 AM »
Agreed.  I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canadian policy.  Harper is an evangelical Christian.  Which is a group of people with stone age beliefs, and a history of oppressing the human rights of others.  His personal holy war against another group of people with different beliefs doesn't make his bigotry more palatable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. Christian or atheist, most people are on the same side of this issue. Anyone who truly believes in freedom is also on the same side.

This absolutely has to do with Christians and their reaction to another religion.  Most atheists I know aren't terribly happy with any religion being firmly entrenched in politics . . . and the only one in Canada that this is true for is Christianity.  How many of our Prime Minister's poor decisions were religiously motivated by his 'stone age' beliefs (as you put it)?  It's interesting that you appear to have no problem supporting one religion over another.

How can anyone truly believe in freedom while denying a countryman the ability to wear clothing of his or her choice?  That requires some next level doublethink . . .

NO ONE is denying people the right to wear the clothing of their choice. Please stop repeating that lie.

All that people want is for those who are pledging allegiance to Canada do so without their face being hidden. After that, they are free to hide their face.

And, by the way...they are not our "countrymen" until after they pledge allegiance. And, please don't be so na´ve as to suggest that women in oppressed countries are wearing burqas as a matter of "choice". There is no choice in those countries.

That's not true at all.  Harper has made it an election promise to look into banning public servants from wearing the clothing of their choice.  (Here's a story as you seem to have trouble finding this information on your own: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/election/harper-stands-by-promise-to-consider-public-service-niqab-ban-1.2599286)  These public servants are Canadians, so they are my countrymen.  Again, I have to wonder at the sort of doublethink you're performing to support oppression of freedom in the name of freedom.

So to recap:

- By his own words, Harper is planning to deny people to be able to wear the clothing that they want (possibly driven by his own extremist religious beliefs - which you're fine with for some odd reason).  So, not a lie (your statements on the matter are demonstrably untrue).

- The people being affected are not just new Canadians, but also people who have been Canadian for years (sometimes their whole lives). . .  Not that we should have separate human rights for people who aren't yet citizens as you seem to favour.

- The people wearing religious articles of clothing in Canada usually want to wear them (http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/life-behind-the-niqab-one-young-womans-burden-for-the-love-of-god,http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-survey-of-women-who-wear-the-niqab-reveals-choice-may-be-a-bit-of-a-youth-movement, http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/03/13/muslim-women-in-canada-explain-why-they-wear-a-niqab.html, etc. etc.).  It is a matter of personal choice in this country.

- Absolutely, terrible things happen in the name of religion all over the world.  This has always been true historically.  It's also beside the point.  Forcing women to uncover their face in front of people they don't feel comfortable doing that with in a purely ceremonial part of the immigration procedure . . . after they have already confirmed their identity privately with the people giving out the citizenship papers does nothing to help or protect Canadians.  It is state mandated religious persecution, and it makes sense that our courts have said the practice is wrong and put an end to it.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 06:40:37 AM by GuitarStv »

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3555
  • Location: France
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2015, 06:58:40 AM »
While music lover is certainly antagonistic, there is some interesting stuff here.

How does religious clothing fit with organisational dress code? I mean, does having religion as a reason entitle a person to more leeway? If I wanted to wear jeans and t-shirt, could I?

It does seem like Harper is trying fear politics, which hopefully will backfire hard.

However, Trudeau's promising an expanded CPP, *middle class* tax cuts rather than lowest bracket or an increase in the tax free allowance, neither of which sit well with me.

Hrm.

I mean, fuck, at the end of the day if you go to the UAE or wherever, you cover up in public, generally - because a) you respect local culture or b) you don't want to get harassed, or both.

Tolerance is good, but I would not choose to live in a country where full cover up is required. It'd be interesting to know how many 4th, 5th etc generation Muslims wear the full deal.

IMHO, as an athiest of course, there should be no different treatment of any person due to religious beliefs. Like, I'm free not to eat meat, pork, beef, whatever; I'm free not to go to church. I'm free to wear the same clothes etc.

One from years ago, in 'Only Fools and Horses' - Sikhs were exempt from wearing motorbike crash helmets because of their turbans. In theory, should we be exempt if citing religious belief? I'd say no - either don't ride a motorbike, or wear the crash hat - OR make wearing the helmet optional for everyone. Of course the number of Sikhs wanting to ride a motorbike is tiny... But it's an interesting question, anyway.

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2015, 04:09:01 PM »
Agreed.  I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canadian policy.  Harper is an evangelical Christian.  Which is a group of people with stone age beliefs, and a history of oppressing the human rights of others.  His personal holy war against another group of people with different beliefs doesn't make his bigotry more palatable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. Christian or atheist, most people are on the same side of this issue. Anyone who truly believes in freedom is also on the same side.

This absolutely has to do with Christians and their reaction to another religion.  Most atheists I know aren't terribly happy with any religion being firmly entrenched in politics . . . and the only one in Canada that this is true for is Christianity.  How many of our Prime Minister's poor decisions were religiously motivated by his 'stone age' beliefs (as you put it)?  It's interesting that you appear to have no problem supporting one religion over another.

How can anyone truly believe in freedom while denying a countryman the ability to wear clothing of his or her choice?  That requires some next level doublethink . . .

NO ONE is denying people the right to wear the clothing of their choice. Please stop repeating that lie.

All that people want is for those who are pledging allegiance to Canada do so without their face being hidden. After that, they are free to hide their face.

And, by the way...they are not our "countrymen" until after they pledge allegiance. And, please don't be so na´ve as to suggest that women in oppressed countries are wearing burqas as a matter of "choice". There is no choice in those countries.

That's not true at all.  Harper has made it an election promise to look into banning public servants from wearing the clothing of their choice.  (Here's a story as you seem to have trouble finding this information on your own: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/election/harper-stands-by-promise-to-consider-public-service-niqab-ban-1.2599286)  These public servants are Canadians, so they are my countrymen.  Again, I have to wonder at the sort of doublethink you're performing to support oppression of freedom in the name of freedom.

So to recap:

- By his own words, Harper is planning to deny people to be able to wear the clothing that they want (possibly driven by his own extremist religious beliefs - which you're fine with for some odd reason).  So, not a lie (your statements on the matter are demonstrably untrue).

- The people being affected are not just new Canadians, but also people who have been Canadian for years (sometimes their whole lives). . .  Not that we should have separate human rights for people who aren't yet citizens as you seem to favour.

- The people wearing religious articles of clothing in Canada usually want to wear them (http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/life-behind-the-niqab-one-young-womans-burden-for-the-love-of-god,http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-survey-of-women-who-wear-the-niqab-reveals-choice-may-be-a-bit-of-a-youth-movement, http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/03/13/muslim-women-in-canada-explain-why-they-wear-a-niqab.html, etc. etc.).  It is a matter of personal choice in this country.

- Absolutely, terrible things happen in the name of religion all over the world.  This has always been true historically.  It's also beside the point.  Forcing women to uncover their face in front of people they don't feel comfortable doing that with in a purely ceremonial part of the immigration procedure . . . after they have already confirmed their identity privately with the people giving out the citizenship papers does nothing to help or protect Canadians.  It is state mandated religious persecution, and it makes sense that our courts have said the practice is wrong and put an end to it.

Do you have any proof that being against the burqa is "proof" of Harper's extremist beliefs? Are you not aware that there are millions of atheists who also feel people should show their face, or do you simply ignore that inconvenient fact??

What's wrong with public servants showing their face? Public servants can't show up to work in a bikini or speedo unless they're a life guard, and those who deal with the public can't wear a balaclava either. What makes hiding the face a special privilege that doesn't apply to other dress codes?

People can't get a driver's licence without showing their face. There are Hutterites who don't drive because they won't take the required picture. Should special privileges be made for them?

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14751
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2015, 04:20:01 PM »

Do you have any proof that being against the burqa is "proof" of Harper's extremist beliefs? Are you not aware that there are millions of atheists who also feel people should show their face, or do you simply ignore that inconvenient fact??

What's wrong with public servants showing their face? Public servants can't show up to work in a bikini or speedo unless they're a life guard, and those who deal with the public can't wear a balaclava either. What makes hiding the face a special privilege that doesn't apply to other dress codes?

People can't get a driver's licence without showing their face. There are Hutterites who don't drive because they won't take the required picture. Should special privileges be made for them?

Personally, i have no problems with a public servant choosing not to show their face to me.  I cannot imagine a scenario where I could not get the same service from someone who covered their face.  Forcing someone to do so is just imposing your will on another group without a tangible reason.


music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2015, 05:34:27 PM »
Personally, i have no problems with a public servant choosing not to show their face to me.  I cannot imagine a scenario where I could not get the same service from someone who covered their face.  Forcing someone to do so is just imposing your will on another group without a tangible reason.

One can also argue that those who hide their faces are forcing their culture on others.

Would you want to live in a society where everyone hides their face?

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14751
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2015, 05:45:48 PM »
Personally, i have no problems with a public servant choosing not to show their face to me.  I cannot imagine a scenario where I could not get the same service from someone who covered their face.  Forcing someone to do so is just imposing your will on another group without a tangible reason.

One can also argue that those who hide their faces are forcing their culture on others.

Would you want to live in a society where everyone hides their face?
I believe you are completely mistaken - living in a society where you the government forced you to either show or hide your face is forcing culture on others.
That's the difference here - the plan is forcing people to do something that is against their values.  It's particularly egregious to me because it doesn't fundamentally relate to the job they are doing.

ALso, to answer your question, I'd just point out that we already live in a society where we don't see the faces of most of the people we 'interact' with.  I don't know what you look like, I don't know who delivers my mail, provides my power, or countless other jobs that make like more tolerable for all of us.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18130
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2015, 05:49:43 PM »
Agreed.  I don't understand why some people want to allow those with stone age beliefs to have a say in Canadian policy.  Harper is an evangelical Christian.  Which is a group of people with stone age beliefs, and a history of oppressing the human rights of others.  His personal holy war against another group of people with different beliefs doesn't make his bigotry more palatable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. Christian or atheist, most people are on the same side of this issue. Anyone who truly believes in freedom is also on the same side.

This absolutely has to do with Christians and their reaction to another religion.  Most atheists I know aren't terribly happy with any religion being firmly entrenched in politics . . . and the only one in Canada that this is true for is Christianity.  How many of our Prime Minister's poor decisions were religiously motivated by his 'stone age' beliefs (as you put it)?  It's interesting that you appear to have no problem supporting one religion over another.

How can anyone truly believe in freedom while denying a countryman the ability to wear clothing of his or her choice?  That requires some next level doublethink . . .

NO ONE is denying people the right to wear the clothing of their choice. Please stop repeating that lie.

All that people want is for those who are pledging allegiance to Canada do so without their face being hidden. After that, they are free to hide their face.

And, by the way...they are not our "countrymen" until after they pledge allegiance. And, please don't be so na´ve as to suggest that women in oppressed countries are wearing burqas as a matter of "choice". There is no choice in those countries.

That's not true at all.  Harper has made it an election promise to look into banning public servants from wearing the clothing of their choice.  (Here's a story as you seem to have trouble finding this information on your own: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/election/harper-stands-by-promise-to-consider-public-service-niqab-ban-1.2599286)  These public servants are Canadians, so they are my countrymen.  Again, I have to wonder at the sort of doublethink you're performing to support oppression of freedom in the name of freedom.

So to recap:

- By his own words, Harper is planning to deny people to be able to wear the clothing that they want (possibly driven by his own extremist religious beliefs - which you're fine with for some odd reason).  So, not a lie (your statements on the matter are demonstrably untrue).

- The people being affected are not just new Canadians, but also people who have been Canadian for years (sometimes their whole lives). . .  Not that we should have separate human rights for people who aren't yet citizens as you seem to favour.

- The people wearing religious articles of clothing in Canada usually want to wear them (http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/life-behind-the-niqab-one-young-womans-burden-for-the-love-of-god,http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-survey-of-women-who-wear-the-niqab-reveals-choice-may-be-a-bit-of-a-youth-movement, http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/03/13/muslim-women-in-canada-explain-why-they-wear-a-niqab.html, etc. etc.).  It is a matter of personal choice in this country.

- Absolutely, terrible things happen in the name of religion all over the world.  This has always been true historically.  It's also beside the point.  Forcing women to uncover their face in front of people they don't feel comfortable doing that with in a purely ceremonial part of the immigration procedure . . . after they have already confirmed their identity privately with the people giving out the citizenship papers does nothing to help or protect Canadians.  It is state mandated religious persecution, and it makes sense that our courts have said the practice is wrong and put an end to it.

Do you have any proof that being against the burqa is "proof" of Harper's extremist beliefs? Are you not aware that there are millions of atheists who also feel people should show their face, or do you simply ignore that inconvenient fact??

What's wrong with public servants showing their face? Public servants can't show up to work in a bikini or speedo unless they're a life guard, and those who deal with the public can't wear a balaclava either. What makes hiding the face a special privilege that doesn't apply to other dress codes?

People can't get a driver's licence without showing their face. There are Hutterites who don't drive because they won't take the required picture. Should special privileges be made for them?

Well, I'm glad you stopped pretending to be on the side of 'freedom' at least . . . that was a pretty unsupportable argument to make.  Well, my mind reading's rusty so I only have Harper's actions and words as proof of his beliefs.  It might be that Harper's attacking Muslims because they're a good political target right now, or because of his own backwards beliefs.  I'll leave it up to you to decide.  What is certain though is that there is no security benefit or benefit to the Canadians as a whole by doing this.

Again, I don't think that you're going to get broad atheist support in what appears to be one religious person attacking another group.  Sure, there are many atheists who believe that religious symbols should be banished from the world.  This isn't unique to the niqab though, they would also like all crosses removed from public display and churches to pay taxes.  You don't get to pick and choose when to side with them.  If you want to go militant atheist, go all the way.  Picking some religions as OK is no longer following that path.  (FWIW, I'm not a religious person myself . . . just don't see why something that has no impact on me should be any of my business, and will vigorously defend the right of someone to live their life in a way that's not hurting me.  It's not a matter of religion, but respect and decency.)

Personally, I don't care if the public servant helping me is of a particular faith, skin colour, or sex.  I'm concerned about competence and expediency.  Neither of them have anything to do with how they dress.  As a matter of fact, focusing on this non-issue distracts people from those more important ones.

Near as I'm aware, there is no religion that requires the wearing of a speedo or balaclava to work . . . which makes the situation with the niqab totally different than the ones you presented.  Kudos on using the same arguments that people tried to use to suppress gay marriage, and it makes as much sense here as it did in that debate - if gays get married then next people will be marrying sheep and walruses!  Look how accurate that turned out to be.

These issues need to be approached on a case by case basis and with a dash of common sense.  A driver's license has a picture on it that needs to show the face of the person to be useful.  It makes sense that someone would have to show more than just the eyes to get a license.  Wearing a niqab as a personal choice for modesty during a ceremonial oath doesn't matter at all.  There are no front line workers who are complaining about this.  There is no security problem, as they have already met privately with someone who confirmed who they are.  It's a non-issue.

lostamonkey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 450
  • Location: Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2015, 06:18:49 PM »
Since I started this whole debate I just wanted to add that I hate the niqab, and wish all women would stop wearing it. But I don't think the government should be able to ban it at the citizenship ceremony and I don't think it should be an election issue.

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2015, 06:22:54 PM »
GuitarStv...you continue to make incorrect assumptions. You continue to call Harper a religious extremist WITH NO PROOF, simply because he believes in showing one's face when pledging allegiance to Canada.

Polls show that 88% of people in Canada believe that a person should show their face when pledging allegiance...I'm just one of the 88%. Don't read any more in to it than that.

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3555
  • Location: France
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2015, 06:46:56 PM »
GuitarStv...you continue to make incorrect assumptions. You continue to call Harper a religious extremist WITH NO PROOF, simply because he believes in showing one's face when pledging allegiance to Canada.

Polls show that 88% of people in Canada believe that a person should show their face when pledging allegiance...I'm just one of the 88%. Don't read any more in to it than that.

Question is, does what you think matter? That's mob rule. People thought slavery ok at one point. Probably even 88% of (non slave) people.

music lover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2015, 04:55:59 AM »
GuitarStv...you continue to make incorrect assumptions. You continue to call Harper a religious extremist WITH NO PROOF, simply because he believes in showing one's face when pledging allegiance to Canada.

Polls show that 88% of people in Canada believe that a person should show their face when pledging allegiance...I'm just one of the 88%. Don't read any more in to it than that.

Question is, does what you think matter? That's mob rule. People thought slavery ok at one point. Probably even 88% of (non slave) people.

That's a stretch of logic, don't you think?

Perhaps you should educate yourself on the cultures that demand their women cover their faces in public before making such a ridiculous comment that lacks any facet of reasonable thinking.

Learn what happens to people in those places who don't comply with the rules. Then, perhaps you might get a grasp of what mob rule really means.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14751
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2015, 06:06:12 AM »
GuitarStv...you continue to make incorrect assumptions. You continue to call Harper a religious extremist WITH NO PROOF, simply because he believes in showing one's face when pledging allegiance to Canada.

Polls show that 88% of people in Canada believe that a person should show their face when pledging allegiance...I'm just one of the 88%. Don't read any more in to it than that.

Question is, does what you think matter? That's mob rule. People thought slavery ok at one point. Probably even 88% of (non slave) people.

That's a stretch of logic, don't you think?

Perhaps you should educate yourself on the cultures that demand their women cover their faces in public before making such a ridiculous comment that lacks any facet of reasonable thinking.

Learn what happens to people in those places who don't comply with the rules. Then, perhaps you might get a grasp of what mob rule really means.

Again, you are confounding the issue.  I agree that there are places where women are horribly abused, marginalized and have few rights, and that in such places they may have no choice but to wear a niqab.  But that's not Canada, nor is it the US, UK, or any other number of countries where there are women who choose to dress this way.  The question at hand is whether it is ok to prevent someone from choosing to dress in this manner.

Yes, I have known people who choose to cover their faces in public.  To them it is a way not to be judged by their make-up, hair, wrinkles or any other number of superficial things that people judge in our countries judge women on other than their actions.  In private settings with friends they often show their face.  The key difference between them and women under (for example) the Taliban control is that they are allowed to make the choice themselves. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18130
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2015, 06:42:10 AM »
GuitarStv...you continue to make incorrect assumptions. You continue to call Harper a religious extremist WITH NO PROOF, simply because he believes in showing one's face when pledging allegiance to Canada.

Polls show that 88% of people in Canada believe that a person should show their face when pledging allegiance...I'm just one of the 88%. Don't read any more in to it than that.

It appears that Harper is acting on his personal beliefs, rather than for the good of the country (as nobody in the citizenship offices brought up the need for a niqab removal, that came from the PMO) . . . this seems pretty extreme to me.  In his position, he's not supposed to tilt at windmills but protect the public good.  But sure, if it makes you feel better I will stop referring to his apparently religiously driven actions as extreme.

Moving on . . . When a poll is misleading it can be manipulated to get all kinds of results.  I think that most Canadians want things to be done sensibly.  Absolutely, for security a woman should have to show her face and prove her identity when getting citizenship.  When I first heard of the issue (and until I read more deeply into the matter) I supported the ban as well.  When it was revealed that the purpose of the ban was not to confirm identity or for protecting security, my views on the matter changed . . . the practice went from sensible to needlessly punitive.

If today you asked:  "Should we force women to remove articles of clothing against their will during a ceremonial procedure in order to become Canadians." I suspect that you would get very different poll results.

FWIW, I don't really like niqabs and burkas.  I'm not big on any overt sign of religious affiliation (always in the back of my mind is the question "Does this person make descisions based on logic, or some crazy interpretation of a multithousand year old manuscript?") and this holds true when I see a cross, nativity scene, US penny praising God, etc.  My preference is also to see a person's face when talking to him or her.  That said, living in a free country means accepting that some people will choose to behave in ways you wouldn't, will hold opinions you don't agree with, and will do things differently than you would.  If it's not harming anyone and there's no security risk in wearing a face covering, who are you to take away someone else's freedom to wear one?

Le Poisson

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14283
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2015, 07:29:25 AM »
So I was reading a nice thread about the election and policy and then it degraded into a pissing match between two dudes who each think the other one is wrong. Too bad.

I already voted. Advance polls were a pain, but overall, it went well.

I also have reservations about all three major parties, but there are two voter behaviours that I find particularly offputting, and I wonder if both are constructs of the CPC. Not sure.

Issue #1 - The idea that vote for a minor party doesn't matter. So many people are of this mindset - that if you don't vote for one of the three major parties, your vote doesn't matter. I think it does. In my voting life, all three of the major parties has had so few seats you could count them on one hand, yet all three have engineered a comeback because of old money and strong support from their core. If we don't allow parties a true representation at the polls, then they will never be able to go to sponsors with numbers that show they are worth supporting. Yes, the sitting gov't took away the $2 per vote benefit thing, but the other sources of income also depend on the party's ability to motivate voters to tick a box on a ballot. You vote does matter.

Issue #2 - The idea of voting 'strategically' or voting against the sitting government. We see all these hashtags and advice sites that tell voters to vote for anything but the CPC. strangely enough, when voters vote against the sitting government, there will be an equal distribution of votes for the other parties, which will mean that as long as the core voters who are actually voting FOR something will be the ones that determine the next government. Not surprisingly, different strategic voting websites will lead you to vote for different parties, and some will even give you different results daily from the same website. I would not at all be surprised to hear that the CPC owns some of these sites and manipulates the result algorithm to ensure the correct seat outcome based on the current polls. If you vote FOR some thing you believe in, you will get a government that you can support. Unfortunately, the competing parties are all campaigning AGAINST Harper rather than FOR Canadians. The entire landscape right now is so focused on ousting/defending the chief that it feels like the parties aren't considering actually governing once they are in power.

OK so those were some big blocks of text, and its mostly just my opinion. Sideshows about women's fashion and pulling out the Rob Ford Horse and Pony act are of little substance, but move to get airtime away from real issues that potential leaders need to talk about. Sneaky Steve is, well, sneaky. I trust him not.

Also, am I the only one who wonders if box-office timing was planned to coincide with the election? I know Sutherland is dead set against Harper, but stranger things have happened. This comes out right on the tail of the while Niqab thing, and a strong military is a Harper promise. I'll wait till it comes out on video. Too cheap to buy tickets/popcorn... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4034452/

Mr Money Mutton Chops

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2015, 09:05:26 AM »
Yep, I plan to vote for a party I believe in (Green, because of their unequivocal stance against C51 and environmental policies), not to oust Harper. I think that is the way to go, find a party you believe in and vote for them, not strategic voting. I'm also curious what kind of government we will get after this: because of the "anyone but Harper" campaign it could get very interesting if the Conservatives have the most seats, especially if they come close to a majority. I don't know how likely that is, but if it happens it'll be very fun to watch.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15526
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2015, 09:29:04 AM »
I had a lovely relaxing Thanksgiving and hope everyone else did, now it's politics again  ;-)
In 96 hours I will have voted - wow this long election campaign is suddenly short!

Side thought - most of us in this thread are easily identified as Canadians, either by the addresses in our names, or by internal comments.  Music lover does neither, and many comments sound more American-based (and trolling) than Canadian-based, although not overtly so. So Music lover, I am curious, where do you live?  Country will do, province would be nice to know.

Mouseland: Tommy Douglas, 1944, as explained by his grandson, Kiefer Sutherland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqgOvzUeiAA

Strategic voting - I normally vote for the party and candidate I am happiest with.  I did one of the online quizzes and my top 3 parties were all close but not perfect matches (that would be Green, NDP, and LPC).  So this time I will vote for the candidate in my riding, of those three parties, most likely to win.  If there were only one that had come close, then I would not be voting strategically, but I can live with either an NDP or Liberal government.  Both are committed to election reform to more representative voting, so next election, if they can do this, I can vote where I want to.  Since the parties do not get $ any more for each vote cast for them (thanks so much, Mr. Harper) we are not helping them financially by voting for them.  Of course that means we need to actually start writing cheques to the party we like, if we don't already.

Philosophy: American "Conservative" versus Canadian "Conservative" - I have just started reading Moral Politics: how liberals and conservatives think and Don't think of an elephant: know your values and frame the debate (both by George Lakoff).  He makes the point that in the US there is the concept that if you are a moral person, God will reward you and you will do well financially.  The  corollary to that is, if you are poor, you must be a bad person because otherwise God would have rewarded you with financial success.  And if you are a poor=bad person, why should moral people (i.e. those making lots of money and paying lots of taxes) support you?  This is a basic tenet of the American conservatives (Republicans, maybe Libertarians and Tea Party?). 

Of course, our early Canadian political history didn't share that view.  Lower Canada was ruled by the Church and the Seigneurial system, so doing well financially had nothing to do with how moral you were.  Similarly, in Upper Canada, the Political Compact generally had power, and again it was family money and political connections with Britain that favoured those in power, not moral goodness.  In fact, in Glengarry School Days (1902), which is a very moral Christian book (what they used to call "muscular Christianity") and a historically interesting read, the financially shrew boy is not held up as a model, rather he is looked down on as being too "sharp".  Also of interest, the girls were as smart as the boys and did as well in school, they are not presented as second class citizens, although the social roles of boys and girls were clearly different in an agricultural society.  Canadian social values were more the "it's hard here, we need to support each other" model. 

The relevance of this to our present election is that Harper's conservatism seems more aligned with the American model than the Canadian model.


RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15526
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Canadian General Election
« Reply #99 on: October 15, 2015, 09:34:37 AM »
And for fun - marijuana is horrible, crack not so much, I suppose.