Can we talk seriously about No Helmet?

[workathomedad]

Mr. Money Mustache not wearing a helmet in his 4 minute video SERIOUSLY DISTURBED ME. Think about children, who will now carelessly not where a helmet and suffer severe brain damage.

I called the Colorado State Police but was rudely hung up on. They were not interested in my complaint.

Instead, I've called and wrote (CERTIFIED!) all Colorado congressmen(woman) and senators and linked them to my petition. We need to change the law now and make reckless and dangerous behavior like "NO HELMET" illegal!

Please sign my petition at Change.org

[rebel100]

Should be up to MMM rather he wears one or not.  He has developed financial support for his family in case something happens to him, he has health insurance...you have no business in his business.

Children should be obedient to their parents in regards to helmet wearing...irrespective of what anyone else does or says.

[matchewed]

Sure we can talk seriously about it. MMM can seriously choose to wear the helmet if he wants to or not. His son is a child and should wear a helmet. The difference being that an adult has the full capacity to measure the risks at hand and react appropriately, a child does not. '

Is wearing a helmet a good idea? Yes. Is making it illegal to not wear a helmet a good idea? No. An adult should not be forced into actions because you feel they're dangerous.

[Russ]

serious talk: there is no objective answer to the question of whether wearing a helmet is actually safer or not. Even more subjective is the question of whether any potential safety benefit is worth the perceived inconvenience of wearing the helmet. I can dig up old threads that quote relevant studies and statistics if you want, or you can search for them yourself here and elsewhere on the web

I'm sure your call to the police was well-meaning, but without any law to back you up they are not obligated to do anything hence maybe the perceived rudeness. From their perspective you were wasting their time. Junior MM was the only one under legal obligation to wear a helmet, and he was.

My personal view on the matter is that someone not wearing a helmet can only harm themselves, so who am I to tell them whether or not they should. Sometimes I wear mine, sometimes I don't. Depends on where I'm going and who I'm with, coming back to the perceived benefit in any given situation.

[workathomedad]

That was easier than I thought.

[Paul der Krake]

Everbody take a chill pill, unless change.org went through a major redesign recently, no Colorado taxpayer money was wasted by OP.

Now can we focus on what's important for our kids and outlaw fat people?

[pattertall]

Haha, good one.  I knew what the video was going to be as soon as hovering over the link showed it as YouTube :)

I have found this to be a surprisingly controversial issue both locally and in other countries.  I haven't heard of too many people filing a police complaint though, so that was a nice spin on the issue.

[Russ]

oh shit, I didn't even look at the link.

good one, ya got me :-)

[tomsang]

I agree after reviewing your change.org petition, I have to support this position even if it means bringing MMM down.

[NinetyFour]

In the video, Junior MM wears a helmet even though his dad doesn't always wear one.  So your prediction that "children...will now carelessly not where (sic) a helmet and suffer severe brain damage" is clearly bogus.

[Samsam]

I find that when I don't wear a helmet cars pass me at a much further distance than when I do wear a helmet.  Sometimes I feel safer without a helmet than with one.

[marty998]

In 1996, two kids in my school got hit by a car while riding a bike.

The one with a helmet walked away with a broken collarbone. The one without a helmet is still a vegetable.

One incident does not a rule make, but I have always worn a helmet since.

[MilwaukeeStubble]

hahaha

That was easier than I thought.

That was stupid easy for you, I read the thread, then clicked the link...  I'm blaming it on the no caffeine today :)

[Aki]

Those who don't wear helmets have probably never fallen and had their skull slam against the concrete.  I've fallen few of times and hit my head and it was quite a blow--I even got a dent in my helmet once.  I can't imagine what would have happened if was not wearing one.  I never ride without one.  While wearing a helmet won't prevent death if you're hit by a car, it can prevent or lessen a traumatic brain injury or a concussion.  I don't understand why anyone would want to risk that.   

[arebelspy]

Trolling (even if well done) is off topic.  Thread moved.  :)

Kudos on the satire.

[ender]

I have worn a helmet many thousands of miles.

I've needed it exactly once.

[ritchie70]

I've only recently started riding a bike again (after a 20-year hiatus) but I've been riding with a helmet.

I feel like a total geek, and don't usually see anyone else in one except the guys on road bikes in full-out gear, but I have too many people who depend on me to risk some sort of hideous traumatic brain injury.

[Micheal]

Depends on what I'm wearing and what i'm riding.  But Kudos on the Rick Roll, You had me for a second.

[AlmostIndependent]

Personally I'm all for helmet wearing. I wear one most (but not all) of the time. Politically I say we should all be grown-ups an take responsibility for our own (and our children's) safety; no rules necessary.

Thanks for the Change.org link. Made my morning :)

[olivia]

My best friend wrecked her bike a couple of months ago.  She was wearing a helmet and still broke her orbital bone and fractured her skull, and got a serious concussion.  I was visiting her in the hospital and was there when the neurologist told her she'd be dead if she hadn't been wearing the helmet.  So I'm gonna go ahead and wear mine always! 

[velocistar237]

EVERYONE SHOULD WEAR A HELMET. How could you not? It's obvious that it offers some protection, and more protection is clearly better than less. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to put on my helmet and go for a drive in my SUV.

[arebelspy]

I wear a helmet.  My wife does not. 

One should educate themselves, then make a personal decision.

[Nords]

serious talk: there is no objective answer to the question of whether wearing a helmet is actually safer or not. Even more subjective is the question of whether any potential safety benefit is worth the perceived inconvenience of wearing the helmet. I can dig up old threads that quote relevant studies and statistics if you want, or you can search for them yourself here and elsewhere on the web

I think people should be free to decide whether they're going to wear a helmet, as long as they're willing to pay for their own hospital expenses and long-term disability care.

Helmets are just a different form of insurance policy.  You hope that you waste a lifetime of helmet expenses and never want to have to use it.

Football players wear helmets.  Lacrosse players wear helmets.  Taekwondo sparring competitors wear helmets.  Baseball batters wear helmets.  Big-wave surfers wear helmets.  Surf photographers have started wearing helmets in the water.  Any questions?

[Samsam]

I don't think you can compare contact sports with leisurely riding a bicycle.  If I am only going 2 miles to my friends house, of which is mostly on the side walk in a residential area, I do not wear my helmet.  When I bike 8 miles to work in rush hour traffic, I do wear my helmet.  Also...when I played lacrosse we did not wear helmets (girls are only required to wear the eye masks and mouth guards).   And by that means, if Nascar and rally car drivers wear helmets...does that mean you should wear a helmet when you drive your car to work or the grocery store??

[nktokyo]

Helmets are mandatory in New Zealand and have been for years. I think they make as much sense seat belts being compulsory. The only downside is more people will have helmet hair.

[Hotstreak]

Heheheh, that gave me a good laugh.

I usually wear a helmet, but not when I am on a leisurely ride through the park, or going slowly on a sidewalk.  Shit, I can run faster than I ride in those situations, and I can stop or turn a bike faster than running too.  Running helmets?

[Nords]

I don't think you can compare contact sports with leisurely riding a bicycle.  If I am only going 2 miles to my friends house, of which is mostly on the side walk in a residential area, I do not wear my helmet. 

You're right.  I should only compare them to the sudden impact and deceleration when your skull hits the ground.

Maybe people feel differently about helmets (and seatbelts and other safety gear) after it's saved their life.  Up until that point it's just inconvenience and bad fashion.

[Albert]

Cycling is far more common here and most people don't wear a helmet for city commutes. There is no need for it unless you are in a racing mode or on mountain bike trails.

[Jamesqf]

The question I keep wondering about is why people who insist on wearing helmets ever do anything with the slightest risk at all.  As for instance, if you surf there are small but real risks of drowning or becoming shark food, so why would a reasonable person ever do it?

Shit, I can run faster than I ride in those situations, and I can stop or turn a bike faster than running too.  Running helmets?

Why stop at running?  People have been known to trip & fall while walking, so why not walking helmets?

[dragoncar]

The question I keep wondering about is why people who insist on wearing helmets ever do anything with the slightest risk at all.  As for instance, if you surf there are small but real risks of drowning or becoming shark food, so why would a reasonable person ever do it?

Shit, I can run faster than I ride in those situations, and I can stop or turn a bike faster than running too.  Running helmets?

Why stop at running?  People have been known to trip & fall while walking, so why not walking helmets?

It often makes sense to take cheap precautions that reduce risk -- that doesn't mean you avoid all risk at any cost.  I lock my door when I'm home even though I probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than being injured because it was unlocked.  Does that make me a paranoid freak?

Running helmets may very well be worth the "cost" (especially if you already wear one on your bike).  But I'm pretty sure the physical dynamics of bike riding make head injury more common than when running (placement of hands, center of gravity, additional points of mechanical failure, etc.) Anecdotally, I've bumped my head a few times while bike riding, but never while jogging.

Now that we're discussing the merits again, is it off-off-topic?

[Samsam]

Why stop at running?  People have been known to trip & fall while walking, so why not walking helmets?

LOL, and what about knee pads and elbow pads...I mean people that do roller derby wear them...I should wear them when I walk too! 

[Jamesqf]

It often makes sense to take cheap precautions that reduce risk -- that doesn't mean you avoid all risk at any cost.

True enough, but now we have to argue about just what is cheap, not just in money, but in time, comfort, pleasure, etc.

I lock my door when I'm home even though I probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than being injured because it was unlocked.  Does that make me a paranoid freak?

While I haven't locked my doors in so long that I'm not even sure where the keys are.

Anecdotally, I've bumped my head a few times while bike riding, but never while jogging.

While I can't recall ever having hit my head doing either.  Hand & knee scrapes from falls while walking & running, yes, not to mention bruises & sprained ankles.  But I can't remember ever having an injury (other than sore butt &c) from biking as an adult.

[arebelspy]

Anecdotally, I've bumped my head a few times while bike riding, but never while jogging.

While I can't recall ever having hit my head doing either.  Hand & knee scrapes from falls while walking & running, yes, not to mention bruises & sprained ankles.  But I can't remember ever having an injury (other than sore butt &c) from biking as an adult.

Ditto.  I've tripped and fallen WAY more times while walking/running than biking.  Shin guards and knee and elbow pads may be necessary.

[tomsang]

A perfectly good Rick Roll, getting ruined by all of this serious talk about helmets:)

[hybrid]

I wear a helmet.  My wife does not. 

One should educate themselves, then make a personal decision.

Agreed.  But all too often I see the libertarians around me making a personal decision as if they are the only one in the room.  I won't venture whether you and your wife have had that discussion.

The reasons one wears a helmet are the same reasons one buys life insurance.  It's not because it is likely you will get hurt, it's what happens on the off chance your skull does come in contact with the pavement.  "I've never hit my head riding a bike" is akin to "I haven't died so life insurance is a waste of money".  Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.

Every doctor I've ever been to has pretty adamantly insisted on my kids or myself wearing a helmet.  IMO they are the subject matter experts when it comes to injury, and when people choose to ignore the subject matter experts, well, I'll just leave it at that.  When they, and not some cycling enthusiast, start telling me helmets are overblown I'll gladly listen to that argument and gladly ditch the helmet.  Until then...

As far as the argument about running (or walking) helmets go, I think people are forgetting the laws of physics.  If you wipe out at 15, 20, 25 MPH the potential for harm is much greater than at 9 MPH (just better than a 7 minute mile running pace).  Force equals mass times velocity.  If you are tooling along at a nice 18 MPH clip your head will hit the ground with a force several times that of a fall while walking at 3 MPH.  So that is why walking helmets are unnecessary while riding helmets are.  The human body did not evolve with 18 MPH collisions as part of the mix. 

[Russ]

Force equals mass times acceleration.

FTFY

[GuitarStv]

Force equals mass times acceleration.

FTFY

He might have meant to say momentum rather than force, in which case his formula was correct.

[hybrid]

Force equals mass times acceleration.

FTFY

He might have meant to say momentum rather than force, in which case his formula was correct.

It's been a bit since my high school physics class and I'm no physicist, and I just copied off Newton.....  F=ma   ;-)

Edit - Oh hell, total typo on my part.  I meant to write acceleration in my first response and wrote velocity instead.  Stupid me....

Any way you slice it, common sense holds.  The faster you are going, the harder the impact, and the worse for your skull.

[impaire]

I wear a helmet.  My wife does not. 

One should educate themselves, then make a personal decision.

Agreed.  But all too often I see the libertarians around me making a personal decision as if they are the only one in the room. 

+1. It's not all about the helmet wearer/non wearer choice: if someone kills or injures you while you're not wearing your helmet, that may matter very much to this person as well (whether or not they were at fault). That may also matter a bit to your dependents and loving ones.

That's just something to consider -- it doesn't presume of your answer to the wholly different question of whether helmets "work" or not.

---
I knew the "petition" was going to be a joke, but I had forgotten about Rick... Awesome!

[Rollin]

I wear a helmet while riding (bicycle and motorcycle) - always.  My kids do as well (bicycle :)).  We have a law here that kids 15 and under are required to wear one and I'd say one in a hundred do so.  So, not sure a law will change much.

As an aside, my youngest was talking with the siblings about me riding their longboard and how funny that was, especially since I wear a helmet doing so!  One said that I was a bit "awkward."  After letting them have their fun I stated that I'd rather keep me head from cracking open then look cool to them.  In reality, I believe they appreciate my perspective, but have a hard time with appearances (which I care much less about - especially when it comes to my safety).  After all, I need to protect and take care of myself so that I can protect and take care of them.

Another aside, I always wear my life jacket (unless I'm sleeping overnight on the boat, then I put it on again in the morning).

[Albert]

There are studies which show that mandatory helmet laws discourage cycling.

Helmet is NOT needed if you are not using your bike for racing.  Also there is no reason at all to go faster than 20-25 km/h in a city...

[MichaelR]

Helmet is NOT needed if you are not using your bike for racing.

What is the data to support this statement? From Wikipedia:

"There are several meta-analyses and reviews which synthesize and evaluate the results of multiple case-control studies. A Cochrane review of case-control studies of bicycle helmets by Thompson et al. found that "helmets provide a 63 to 88% reduction in the risk of head, brain and severe brain injury for all ages of bicyclists. Helmets provide equal levels of protection for crashes involving motor vehicles (69%) and crashes from all other causes (68%). Injuries to the upper and mid facial areas are reduced 65%.".[34]

A 2001 meta-analysis of sixteen studies by Attewell et al. found that, compared to helmeted cyclists, unhelmeted cyclists were 2.4 times more likely to sustain a brain injury; 2.5 times more likely to sustain a head injury; and 3.7 times more likely to sustain a fatal injury.[35][36]"

And the reason not to wear a helmet is?? Yes you can set up a straw man argument about helmets and walking, but there is absolutely no data that walking carries a significant risk of head injury where there is plently of data around cycling injuries.

Its like seatbelts in cars, or helmets for motorcyclists - yes the individualists think every human being will look at the data and make a rational decision. But the truth is they just don't. And the rest of society, ie the tax payer, ends up picking up the costs at some point or another be it directly through national health schemes, or indirectly through increased insurance premiums.

[Jamesqf]

The reasons one wears a helmet are the same reasons one buys life insurance.

But I don't buy life insurance :-)

It's not because it is likely you will get hurt, it's what happens on the off chance your skull does come in contact with the pavement.

But you can apply the same argument to any activity.  So why would you wear a helmet while biking, and not walking, driving, playing basketball, leaning back in your chair, having sex...?  It's perfectly possible to hit your head while doing any of those.

If you are tooling along at a nice 18 MPH clip your head will hit the ground with a force several times that of a fall while walking at 3 MPH.  So that is why walking helmets are unnecessary while riding helmets are.

Nope, and it's physics again.  Force is a vector quantity.  What hurts is the component of the force directed downwards.  The 18 mph is directed horizontally, and will just give you road rash (unless you run into a concrete wall or something), while dropping a skull 5-6 ft onto a hard surface will hurt.  (Of course this is over-simplified, as a conscious body has all sorts of ways, learned & reflexive to break a fall.)

...Thompson et al. found that "helmets provide a 63 to 88% reduction in the risk...

Problem here is expressing the difference between two very small numbers as a percentage change gives a misleading impression of risk.  It's like saying that not wearing a red hood gives an 88% reduction in the risk of a wolf attack.  The real question is how likely you are to be attacked by a wolf in the first place.

[Albert]

The argument is not that helmet doesn't provide additional protection (it clearly does), but that the likelihood of you falling or being struck by a car on a leisurely ride is vanishingly small.

I don't wear a helmet on city rides because I have to then carry it around whenever I leave my bicycle somewhere.

If you use your bicycle for exercise going at high speeds or on mountain-bike trails then it's different. I do have a helmet and use it in those circumstances.

It's just seems so much common sense...

[arebelspy]

I don't wear a helmet on city rides because I have to then carry it around whenever I leave my bicycle somewhere.

You don't lock up your bike?  I just thread the helmet through the lock...

[Albert]

I don't wear a helmet on city rides because I have to then carry it around whenever I leave my bicycle somewhere.

You don't lock up your bike?  I just thread the helmet through the lock...

Sure I do, but leaving a helmet with my bike would significantly enhance the risk of it being stolen, particularly if I leave it at a train station all day. Cycling is very popular here with several thousand bikes parked at the main train station alone every day. You can leave a 1000$ bike for an hour or two once in a while and 99% that nothing bad will happen, but if you leave it often for long periods of time you want something cheaper that doesn't stand out in the crowd.

[dragoncar]

I don't wear a helmet on city rides because I have to then carry it around whenever I leave my bicycle somewhere.

You don't lock up your bike?  I just thread the helmet through the lock...

I just keep wearing it.  You never know when I'll trip and fall, and it costs nothing.  Plus all the ladies dig it and give me sexy looks.

[hybrid]

It's not because it is likely you will get hurt, it's what happens on the off chance your skull does come in contact with the pavement.

But you can apply the same argument to any activity.  So why would you wear a helmet while biking, and not walking, driving, playing basketball, leaning back in your chair, having sex...?  It's perfectly possible to hit your head while doing any of those.

If you are tooling along at a nice 18 MPH clip your head will hit the ground with a force several times that of a fall while walking at 3 MPH.  So that is why walking helmets are unnecessary while riding helmets are.

Nope, and it's physics again.  Force is a vector quantity.  What hurts is the component of the force directed downwards.  The 18 mph is directed horizontally, and will just give you road rash (unless you run into a concrete wall or something), while dropping a skull 5-6 ft onto a hard surface will hurt.  (Of course this is over-simplified, as a conscious body has all sorts of ways, learned & reflexive to break a fall.)

...Thompson et al. found that "helmets provide a 63 to 88% reduction in the risk...

Problem here is expressing the difference between two very small numbers as a percentage change gives a misleading impression of risk.  It's like saying that not wearing a red hood gives an 88% reduction in the risk of a wolf attack.  The real question is how likely you are to be attacked by a wolf in the first place.

Then James you will need to explain to me why my doctors only seem to care if I am wearing a helmet when riding and not when doing any of the other activities you mention.  I'll venture it has to do with the amount of risk involved and the severity of the injuries.  Or are you arguing that doctors have bought into an urban myth?

You write: (unless you run into a concrete wall or something)  -  Hmmmm, you're arguing it wouldn't matter unless the cyclist slammed into something unexpectedly?  OK, we agree there.  I know two people who were in severe biking accidents.  One has a permanent injury to his left eye, the other suffered severe damage to both his arms.    In both cases the cyclists, who were obeying the rules of the road, ran headlong into a concrete wall or something (the something being the car that pulled directly in front of them, bringing their cycle to an instant stop.)  I know no one who has been in a severe walking accident.

Personally, I would ditch the helmet in a NY minute.  But as a father, husband, and family member I don't believe I have the right to abdicate that responsibility.   

[kendallf]

I am working on my protective sex helmet design now.  Must not impede access to various body parts.. washable.. padded exterior?  I think there are millions to be made!

I'm an avid cyclist and I don't always wear my helmet when tooling around solo.  It's interesting that this is such a heavily debated thing here in the US, where transportation cycling is such a microscopic fraction of routine bike use in most European countries.  There's a difference in risk between riding the Tuesday Night World Championships at 30 mph down narrow roads (crash last night, matter of fact) and riding down a city sidewalk at 8 mph.  I don't think there are any studies that separate out these differences.

Be responsible for yourself, make your own decision, and ride. 

[arebelspy]

I don't wear a helmet on city rides because I have to then carry it around whenever I leave my bicycle somewhere.

You don't lock up your bike?  I just thread the helmet through the lock...

Sure I do, but leaving a helmet with my bike would significantly enhance the risk of it being stolen, particularly if I leave it at a train station all day. Cycling is very popular here with several thousand bikes parked at the main train station alone every day. You can leave a 1000$ bike for an hour or two once in a while and 99% that nothing bad will happen, but if you leave it often for long periods of time you want something cheaper that doesn't stand out in the crowd.

Would it?  A $5-$20 helmet is going to "significantly enhance" the risk of it being stolen?

I'm thinking bike thieves look much more at the bike itself (both what they can get for it and how easy it would be to steal) rather than a plastic helmet attached to it.  But I could be wrong.