Author Topic: Bullying  (Read 13685 times)

Ottawa

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Bullying
« on: May 21, 2014, 11:44:47 AM »
While at the gym today, I saw the typical red-flashing CNN screen "Breaking News"...which really isn't.  But, what caught my eye was the quote from the Mayor of Porterville, CA. 

Quote
Mayor's advice to the bullied "Grow a Pair"

Wow what an asshole - he's screwed.  But then I thought more about it...maybe he isn't an asshole. 

Here it is: http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/21/us/mayor-bully-comment/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
There are some (atypically) thoughtful comments at the bottom of the article. 

If you or your child was the victim (or the bully) what would you do?

soccerluvof4

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 01:38:11 PM »
I would go to great lengths to make sure my child was happy #1 priority as a parent BUT more specifically it would depend on the degree on the bullying and also the ramifications. I'm most cases I would just "react" but sit with my child and weigh all the options etc...

I have 4 kids from 8-15 and the schools where I live do a great job on keeping both parents and kids informed of how it hurts people etc.. so really hasn't been an issue. If my kid bullied someone that would be easier...! I would ring there F...ing neck!

To some degree it seems the word bullying today is overused as well.  Maybe I am old school but feel they need to experience some things in life to get a tough shell...


brewer12345

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 02:10:53 PM »
An atmosphere of persistent bullying is how you get Columbine incidents.  That mayor is an asshole.  Fortunately, my kids' elementary school is quite vigilant on the subject and responds quickly when even minor issues surface.

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 02:12:48 PM »
Part of the problem is that children are not allowed to defend themselves.  Where else would you be required to be assaulted and not able to fight back or risk the same punishment as your attacker.  My child won't go to public school, partly for that reason.

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 02:21:31 PM »
I was bullied in 9th and 10th grade. Never anything physical, just mean-spirited picking because I liked math better than football. I have never been a violent person, and never been in a fight besides wrestling with my brothers, but I will be the first to admit that during those two years, I often fantasized about taking a baseball bat and beating the shit out of the bullies. If their bullying had ever escalated to anything physical, there's a good chance that I would have actually done it. And it probably would have gotten me expelled from school, and the bullies would have probably been slapped on the wrist. Things could have turned out very differently for me. I'm glad to see the focus that bullying is getting, because it was not there when I was in high school. My teachers just told me to turn the other cheek. I did, but it was psychological torture to do so. The bullies were all older than me - I never had any issues with any of my peers. By 11th grade, they had all graduated, and I had a blast the last two years of high school. Sheesh, just typing this up makes me greatly appreciate that that chapter of my life is behind me. Adolescents can be such assholes.

Cassie

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 02:31:41 PM »
When my son was 12 he was getting hit by another boy and he hated to fight so did nothing. Finally his Dad showed him how to hit the kid in the nose. He told him do it once and he will not bother you again because it will really hurt.  Finally my son did that & that was the end of it.  The school gave both boys detention for a few days but in the end it was worth it. 

MoneyCat

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 02:35:35 PM »
It's all well and good to tell kids to fight back against the bullies, but realistically bullies pick on kids who are too small and/or weak to defend themselves.  So, then the bullied kids have to look for ways to equalize which will usually involve weapons like knives and guns.

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 02:49:26 PM »
Part of the problem is that children are not allowed to defend themselves.  Where else would you be required to be assaulted and not able to fight back or risk the same punishment as your attacker.  My child won't go to public school, partly for that reason.

Children are not allowed to defend themselves??
No, under zero tolerance a student defending themselves is guilty of fight in school and in some public schools this can even mean being arrested on top of being expelled.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:00:17 PM by Gin1984 »

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 02:51:08 PM »
And literally every public school uses this policy and enforces it down to the letter with no understanding of context or nuance, so the only sensible solution is to keep your children far away.

Ottawa

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 02:59:23 PM »
When my son was 12 he was getting hit by another boy and he hated to fight so did nothing. Finally his Dad showed him how to hit the kid in the nose. He told him do it once and he will not bother you again because it will really hurt.  Finally my son did that & that was the end of it.  The school gave both boys detention for a few days but in the end it was worth it.

I have mixed feelings about reprisals for physical bullying.  I think they can be very effective in some instances.

I think one of the hardest things to detect and to deal with is the psychological bullying. How pervasive is psychological bullying in schools? I don't really know the answer to this although I'm sure there's data on it. I think psychological or verbal bullying is one of the most insidious types. My brother endured a good bout of this in school and it greatly affected him although in later years he said that it made him stronger for it.

It's all well to punch someone in the nose if they punch you first. But how do you deal with nonverbal  bullying?

galliver

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 05:13:30 PM »
I think bullying should define behavior that can be classified as either threatening or harassment. Something intentionally, persistently hurtful. I wonder, based on  how many people on the internet claim to have been bullied as children (next to almost 0% in my real life?) if bullying is being conflated with teasing and as a result 'overprescribed'? Not that teasing is necessarily nice either, but learning to take it in stride and laugh at yourself sometimes is a good life skill. Or stand up and tell someone "I know you were probably just trying to be funny, but you deeply hurt my feelings and now I'm angry with you."Or walk away and not deal with those people, if that's possible. Learning that not everyone is worthy of being your friend. Obviously teasing can turn into harrassment, too. Somewhere in between, there's a fuzzy line, possibly where the victim feels abused and the offender doesn't realize that. Kids aren't the best at reading body language.

All of which is why it's important to be able to talk about it. For Alice to come to a teacher and say "Bob called me this name" or "Bob called me this name every day for a month now" And, maybe (just maybe) Alice didn't tell Bob that this hurt her feelings, and she needs to learn to do that (no one is born with assertiveness). But Bob needs to be talked with, too; maybe he just didn't realize his behavior was hurtful and there needs to be some mediation/reconciliation. Or maybe he's having trouble at home or with another kid or something. If we just throw a label on it, Bob is the aggressor and Alice is the victim and does that really help anyone?

I think zero tolerance makes sense for things line guns/weapons and illegal drugs. I think it's ridiculous that kids get suspended/expelled/black marks on their records for silly mistakes like bringing a pocketknife to school after a camping trip (and turning it in voluntarily after realizing it!) or bringing/taking OTC painkillers (in high school!). And fighting, especially in elementary/middle school.  Sometimes, not lashing out physically is a matter of impulse control and we all know how great kids are at that. We once had two kids scuffle at summer camp when I was a counselor (totally unexpected by us), but the *instant* the first punch landed they both walked away. They knew it was wrong; they just didn't realize it was happening until it happened. Our head counselor was very lenient so after lots of very stern conversations with senior camp staff, parents, both kids, etc they were allowed to stay by a hair (and I think we were all glad, they were actually both great kids except for that one incident). So as far as school, it seems like adding fighting to the zero tolerance list  (as opposed to the "ohhh, you reeeally screwed up now" list) just completely ignores the reality of kids' emotional control and reasoning skills, at least at younger ages (basically <14yo).

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 05:26:10 PM »
Bullying is a tough topic.  I grew up in a small town, where half of the people in my very small class in grade 9 were all related.  I never fit in and got picked on a lot.  Stuff like being shoved around, punched, kicked, etc.  I tried talking to my teachers . . . who handed out a few detentions.  I tried talking to the principal . . . who handed out a few detentions which made the bullying much worse.  I tried fighting back, and ended up being really badly beaten a couple times.  It kind of came to a head when I was jumped by several of the guys from my class and one of them managed to choke me unconscious while the rest punched and kicked me.  A classmate who saw me said that I was unconscious for more than five minutes in her police report.  The police went and talked to the parents of the kids who I could remember or who my class mate had seen.  One of them got suspended.  I started carrying the biggest knife I could hide in my baggy jeans pocket, and decided that the next time something happened I was going to do my best to kill one of the guys before they got me.  I don't know if it was getting the police involved, or if my demeanour had changed, but fortunately I was left alone physically from that point, and we moved the year after that.

There's a particular feeling of helplessness that you develop living in a situation where people are hurting you and you can't seem to stop it.  It is hard to explain to someone who hasn't been through it.  On the one hand, yes, you do need to stand up for yourself . . . nobody else is going to.  On the other hand, if you don't have any friends, don't fight very well, and aren't very strong you have to be ready to kill the bully to stand any real chance . . .

I think that the reason so few people that you talk to face to face will claim to have been bullied is that it's not an easy subject for those who don't have a nice "I stood up for myself and the big bad bully went away" story.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 05:28:43 PM by GuitarStv »

Annamal

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 05:49:00 PM »

Ottawa

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 05:58:08 PM »
I like this article better

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/10071883/When-bullying-stops-everyone-wins

Thanks for sharing!  Any article that gets people thinking more in depth about this topic is beneficial.  Single individuals like Tawh can make such a big difference because they can speak to their peer group from both sides. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 06:12:35 PM by Ottawa »

LalsConstant

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 06:06:02 PM »
I was a nerdy awkward kid.  Also until I hit my sophomore growth spurt, I was smaller than everyone else.

You're gosh darn right I got picked on and bullied and got into a few fights.  I wouldn't wish bullying on anyone.

That said, I don't go on a moral crusade against it either.  It is human nature, an ugly part of human nature, but part of it.

Bullying taught me a few things.

I had to learn to triage my problems.  One of the earliest things I realized was if I complained to adults about it constantly, I would soon be ignored.  Nobody really gives a damn if he throws rocks at you after school every day if you complain about it every day.  In the real world nobody gives a damn about you being a little uncomfortable or pushed around or intimidated, sooner you learn that the better.

I also learned you need proof.  I was a chump of a kid, I didn't lie to adults and things like that.  I thought, stupid me, the whole point of not being a liar was when you said something people knew they could believe you. Nope, world doesn't work like that. 

I had to learn to deal with it myself.  And that meant I had to learn when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.  There were times you just had to put up with it.  And there were times you had to do something you'd get in trouble for if you got caught.

I'm not some big tough guy who threatens to beat people up, I hate fighting.  I think a milk carton is scarier than I am.  Yes martial arts and things like that are all very interesting but I've never known anyone who is into that kind of subject area expertise to actually relish hurting people with it.  I hate it when people get hurt. 

But damn it all if that's not the problem.  The gentler, more peaceful you are by disposition, the more of these assholes you attract than you otherwise would if you were a more aggressive person.

It  teaches you to leverage intelligence over brute force.  There was a boy named Marcus who used to come to the bus stop and punch me in the stomach and run away so everyone else would laugh and call me gay.  So after the second time this happened, I came to the bus stop with a hardcover book taped over my gut under my shirt.  Marcus broke a fingernail (and I don't mean in a dainty way I mean in a he didn't have a nail on that thumb for a while way) and jammed two of his fingers and fell to the ground groaning in pain.

Of course Marcus and I became good friends for a long time after that.  I  was never a popular kid but I stopped being a punchline after that incident.

Another boy named Ken used to grab me and drag me into the pine straw and bury me in it face first so deep I couldn't breath and I had mud in my mouth afterward.  He was much taller than I was too.  I complained to the principle, who said they would "monitor".  This happened twice more while they were "monitoring".

So one day I threw a pine cone at Ken.  He came running to punish me and I pulled the string, and the branch under tension went over my head, but it was the perfect height to hit him right on the bridge of the nose...  A half dozen stomps on his crotch afterward insured he never bothered me again.

But those were my only seriously physical bullies.  The rest were more into flicking staples at you, pushing you over, name calling, intimidation, etc.  Of course eventually I learned the rule is, never let them touch you or hurt you.  They can say anything they want and it doesn't matter, but if someone touches you, you maul them right then and there.

It taught me some bad things too, like it taught me to be sneaky.  I never fought my bullies at school.  And it taught me to curse and be rude to these people.

Would I want anyone to go through this?  No.  But people are what they are.  Bullying will never go away.  And if you're the kind of person who gets bullied because you're different somehow, you are going to get picked on your entire life because you aren't going to get less different somehow.  It's better to learn in junior high where the consequences don't really matter.

It makes you a better person when you realize you've just got to have a pair of balls sometimes, and you understand more than anyone when people deserve the crap they get and when they do not.

For all I know, I'm here today because I pulled a gun on a carjacker once ten years ago.

Years later, I would tell a very rude man if he didn't stop harassing my developmentally disabled coworker with crass sexual harassment, I was going to break my foot off in his ass, because by then, I not only knew how it felt, I knew how to deal with people like that.

Moral crusades against something you can never change will help no one unless you also change attitudes from zero tolerance polices and other such nonsense that just encourages the victim to put up with it.  As a strong academic student, I was terrified of suspensions and expulsions, but my bullies weren't.  It wasn't until I got into situations that were so bad I was willing to shove another boy into the pavement in the street than put up with it that I learned how to make it stop.  And how dangerous is that?  Also I was probably wrong in my thinking anyway, I bet the school could have done something to me because most schools have a policy that if it happened near campus or the bus it happened on campus.

I will agree some of the adults around me should have taken me more seriously, but the message needs to be fight back.  Viciously.

Ottawa

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2014, 06:07:45 PM »
Bullying is a tough topic.  I grew up in a small town, where half of the people in my very small class in grade 9 were all related.  I never fit in and got picked on a lot.  Stuff like being shoved around, punched, kicked, etc.  I tried talking to my teachers . . . who handed out a few detentions.  I tried talking to the principal . . . who handed out a few detentions which made the bullying much worse.  I tried fighting back, and ended up being really badly beaten a couple times.  It kind of came to a head when I was jumped by several of the guys from my class and one of them managed to choke me unconscious while the rest punched and kicked me.  A classmate who saw me said that I was unconscious for more than five minutes in her police report.  The police went and talked to the parents of the kids who I could remember or who my class mate had seen.  One of them got suspended.  I started carrying the biggest knife I could hide in my baggy jeans pocket, and decided that the next time something happened I was going to do my best to kill one of the guys before they got me.  I don't know if it was getting the police involved, or if my demeanour had changed, but fortunately I was left alone physically from that point, and we moved the year after that.

There's a particular feeling of helplessness that you develop living in a situation where people are hurting you and you can't seem to stop it.  It is hard to explain to someone who hasn't been through it.  On the one hand, yes, you do need to stand up for yourself . . . nobody else is going to.  On the other hand, if you don't have any friends, don't fight very well, and aren't very strong you have to be ready to kill the bully to stand any real chance . . .

I think that the reason so few people that you talk to face to face will claim to have been bullied is that it's not an easy subject for those who don't have a nice "I stood up for myself and the big bad bully went away" story.

Wow, thanks for sharing that. Your last paragraph speaks to the likely fact that this stuff is still vastly misunderstood/under reported.  Some of the policies by schools mentioned in this thread appear not to be addressing the problem, rather - trying to mitigate bad press.  This is an ignorant approach and fails to examine root cause ...from which better decisions can create more positive outcomes. 

scottydog

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 06:56:49 PM »
I think bullying should define behavior that can be classified as either threatening or harassment. Something intentionally, persistently hurtful. I wonder, based on  how many people on the internet claim to have been bullied as children (next to almost 0% in my real life?) if bullying is being conflated with teasing and as a result 'overprescribed'? Not that teasing is necessarily nice either, but learning to take it in stride and laugh at yourself sometimes is a good life skill.

I find the whole topic of conflict resolution rather fascinating, and as a father of 3 I'm trying to learn more about how to handle bullying.  Last year, I read a book about bullying by Barbara Coloroso: The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander.  I found the book comprehensive but a bit dry, and for me the one thing that stood out was the difference between teasing, in which both parties think it's funny, and taunting, in which only one party thinks its funny.  I like this distinction because it's easy to explain to my 5-year-old that teasing is okay and a fun part of life, whereas taunting is hurtful and mean.  I would say that if teasing isn't nice, then it's actually taunting and that is bullying.  I agree wholeheartedly that learning to laugh at yourself is a fantastic life skill.  I suspect that taunting isn't the best way to develop that skill though, and I will be very clear with my children that taunting is unacceptable behaviour for them.

I was bullied a bit in grade 9 and I dealt with it by running away from the conflict: I switched classes and spent every lunch period in the safety of the library for the entire year.  I don't know if I could have mustered the courage to take on an actual fight at that age.  The guy who was bullying me was from a rough family and had older brothers who'd served jail time for fighting.  I was scared and my parents allowed me to join a karate club so that I could "learn how to fight," as I told my sensei.  Luckily my sensei replied with, "Here, we're going to teach you how to stay out of fights."  For me, the martial arts helped in two ways: I no longer felt physically helpless, and achieving difficult goals helped boost my self-confidence in general.  I'm not-so-secretly hoping that my kids will show an interest in martial arts or some other long-term growth experience, because the self-confidence obtained from overcoming obstacles over a long period of time can be huge.  Plus I think it will help them avoid becoming victims.

southern granny

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 07:02:32 PM »
I have a 7 year old grandson who is bowel and bladder incontinent due to spina bifida.  A kid in his class has been making fun of him and teasing him because he wears pull ups.  Apparently this has been going on for months, but my grandson recently told his mom.  She told the principal, and the principal was all over it.  He called the child to his office for a reaming, he called the parents and he made the child apologize and gave him a very stern warning.  He handled it.  If all schools reacted this way, it would save kids a lot of anguish.  The principal has been great.  He even lets my grandson use his personal bathroom to do his caths. 

Ottawa

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2014, 07:04:13 PM »
  I was scared and my parents allowed me to join a karate club so that I could "learn how to fight," as I told my sensei.  Luckily my sensei replied with, "Here, we're going to teach you how to stay out of fights."  For me, the martial arts helped in two ways: I no longer felt physically helpless, and achieving difficult goals helped boost my self-confidence in general.  I'm not-so-secretly hoping that my kids will show an interest in martial arts or some other long-term growth experience, because the self-confidence obtained from overcoming obstacles over a long period of time can be huge.  Plus I think it will help them avoid becoming victims.

Self defence is pretty fine bang for buck.  It teaches you not to bully and also to defend against physical bullying...but also provides self confidence, which  exudes an 'I'm not an easy target' for taunting or psychological bullying.

oldtoyota

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2014, 07:09:11 PM »
Bullying is a tough topic.  I grew up in a small town, where half of the people in my very small class in grade 9 were all related.  I never fit in and got picked on a lot.  Stuff like being shoved around, punched, kicked, etc.  I tried talking to my teachers . . . who handed out a few detentions.  I tried talking to the principal . . . who handed out a few detentions which made the bullying much worse.  I tried fighting back, and ended up being really badly beaten a couple times.  It kind of came to a head when I was jumped by several of the guys from my class and one of them managed to choke me unconscious while the rest punched and kicked me.  A classmate who saw me said that I was unconscious for more than five minutes in her police report.  The police went and talked to the parents of the kids who I could remember or who my class mate had seen.  One of them got suspended.  I started carrying the biggest knife I could hide in my baggy jeans pocket, and decided that the next time something happened I was going to do my best to kill one of the guys before they got me.  I don't know if it was getting the police involved, or if my demeanour had changed, but fortunately I was left alone physically from that point, and we moved the year after that.

There's a particular feeling of helplessness that you develop living in a situation where people are hurting you and you can't seem to stop it.  It is hard to explain to someone who hasn't been through it.  On the one hand, yes, you do need to stand up for yourself . . . nobody else is going to.  On the other hand, if you don't have any friends, don't fight very well, and aren't very strong you have to be ready to kill the bully to stand any real chance . . .

I think that the reason so few people that you talk to face to face will claim to have been bullied is that it's not an easy subject for those who don't have a nice "I stood up for myself and the big bad bully went away" story.

Wow, thanks for sharing that. Your last paragraph speaks to the likely fact that this stuff is still vastly misunderstood/under reported.  Some of the policies by schools mentioned in this thread appear not to be addressing the problem, rather - trying to mitigate bad press.  This is an ignorant approach and fails to examine root cause ...from which better decisions can create more positive outcomes.

Yes. Thank you. It was brave to write that.

wepner

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2014, 08:34:25 PM »
Part of the problem is that children are not allowed to defend themselves.  Where else would you be required to be assaulted and not able to fight back or risk the same punishment as your attacker.  My child won't go to public school, partly for that reason.

Children are not allowed to defend themselves??
No, under zero tolerance a student defending themselves is guilty of fight in school and in some public schools this can even mean being arrested on top of being expelled.

Are there private schools that market themselves by saying that kids are allowed to beat up their bullies?

vern

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2014, 12:58:19 AM »
Thanks for sharing your story Lals and the rest.  I'm glad y'all pulled through.

Ted Rall wrote a very good graphic novel about his bully called "My War with Brian".

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2014, 05:03:52 AM »
Part of the problem is that children are not allowed to defend themselves.  Where else would you be required to be assaulted and not able to fight back or risk the same punishment as your attacker.  My child won't go to public school, partly for that reason.

Children are not allowed to defend themselves??
No, under zero tolerance a student defending themselves is guilty of fight in school and in some public schools this can even mean being arrested on top of being expelled.

Are there private schools that market themselves by saying that kids are allowed to beat up their bullies?
No but there are many that do not have zero tolerance rules in place which does allow for self-defense.  They also do not have police presence in the schools, which makes a difference.  They are more likely to deal with things internally instead of calling the cops. 

Ottawa

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2014, 05:18:19 AM »
I've linked this article before on the forum...somewhere, but for a different purpose.  I think I'll link it again because some of the surprising results of the ongoing experiment at this school in New Zealand included less bullying. 

Quote
The kids were motivated, busy and engaged. In my experience, the time children get into trouble is when they are not busy, motivated and engaged. It's during that time they bully other kids, graffiti or wreck things around the school.

This sounds like an excellent outside-the-box way to reduce bullying.  Do you guys think that this principal's comments are on the mark wrt a nexus between decreased bullying through increased motivation/engagement?

Ottawa

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2014, 05:31:24 AM »
I'd also be interested in hearing anyone's experience and thoughts on adult bullying.  I see this as being a different and equally complex area.  This may have happened to you; it certainly appears to have happened to over 25% of working adults.  Even worse, 72% of employers do nothing about it. 

I personally feel powerless when I witness or hear about workplace bullying happening to other people.  It makes me really upset to hear people experience this.  I *think* I know what I would do if it happened to me...but it doesn't.  Given my position of relative ignorance about how it might feel or what the implications of actioning/ignoring are..., I don't want to say the wrong thing.  Thoughts?

FunkyStickman

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 08:08:17 AM »
And literally every public school uses this policy and enforces it down to the letter with no understanding of context or nuance, so the only sensible solution is to keep your children far away.

Done. ;)

Freedom2016

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2014, 12:35:01 PM »
I think bullying should define behavior that can be classified as either threatening or harassment. Something intentionally, persistently hurtful. I wonder, based on  how many people on the internet claim to have been bullied as children (next to almost 0% in my real life?) if bullying is being conflated with teasing and as a result 'overprescribed'? Not that teasing is necessarily nice either, but learning to take it in stride and laugh at yourself sometimes is a good life skill. Or stand up and tell someone "I know you were probably just trying to be funny, but you deeply hurt my feelings and now I'm angry with you."Or walk away and not deal with those people, if that's possible. Learning that not everyone is worthy of being your friend. Obviously teasing can turn into harrassment, too. Somewhere in between, there's a fuzzy line, possibly where the victim feels abused and the offender doesn't realize that. Kids aren't the best at reading body language.

All of which is why it's important to be able to talk about it. For Alice to come to a teacher and say "Bob called me this name" or "Bob called me this name every day for a month now" And, maybe (just maybe) Alice didn't tell Bob that this hurt her feelings, and she needs to learn to do that (no one is born with assertiveness). But Bob needs to be talked with, too; maybe he just didn't realize his behavior was hurtful and there needs to be some mediation/reconciliation. Or maybe he's having trouble at home or with another kid or something. If we just throw a label on it, Bob is the aggressor and Alice is the victim and does that really help anyone?

I think zero tolerance makes sense for things line guns/weapons and illegal drugs. I think it's ridiculous that kids get suspended/expelled/black marks on their records for silly mistakes like bringing a pocketknife to school after a camping trip (and turning it in voluntarily after realizing it!) or bringing/taking OTC painkillers (in high school!). And fighting, especially in elementary/middle school.  Sometimes, not lashing out physically is a matter of impulse control and we all know how great kids are at that. We once had two kids scuffle at summer camp when I was a counselor (totally unexpected by us), but the *instant* the first punch landed they both walked away. They knew it was wrong; they just didn't realize it was happening until it happened. Our head counselor was very lenient so after lots of very stern conversations with senior camp staff, parents, both kids, etc they were allowed to stay by a hair (and I think we were all glad, they were actually both great kids except for that one incident). So as far as school, it seems like adding fighting to the zero tolerance list  (as opposed to the "ohhh, you reeeally screwed up now" list) just completely ignores the reality of kids' emotional control and reasoning skills, at least at younger ages (basically <14yo).

I don't have any direct experience with bullying (I wasn't bullied as a kid - teased as I was semi-nerdy but nothing persistent that rose to the level of harassment or worse). And I only have a 2-year old, who's not yet in school.

My 8-year old niece, however, has been harassed for 3 years by a boy in her class. He picked her out as a target and on the playground will run up to her and say "You're ugly!" or "You're stupid!" Apparently on a very regular basis, to the point that her mom has insisted that they be in separate classrooms. Which they are. But that hasn't stopped him. My niece has apparently deployed all of the nice ideas you suggest, about telling the boy it hurts her feelings, about laughing it off, trying to ignore him, apparently she's tried everything short of physical retaliation. Teachers know he's trouble, but according to my sister they can't be everywhere all the time, so he seeks her out when teachers aren't around. All these efforts have made NO difference. NONE. The kid still has it in for her. She's starting to think she IS ugly because of this idiot kid.

It is to the point where her dad is starting to think she needs to learn how to deck him, and that just one well-aimed knee or foot will probably end it. While I'm normally an anti-violence, peace-loving person, I can't say I disagree.

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2014, 01:33:26 PM »
I think bullying should define behavior that can be classified as either threatening or harassment. Something intentionally, persistently hurtful. I wonder, based on  how many people on the internet claim to have been bullied as children (next to almost 0% in my real life?) if bullying is being conflated with teasing and as a result 'overprescribed'? Not that teasing is necessarily nice either, but learning to take it in stride and laugh at yourself sometimes is a good life skill. Or stand up and tell someone "I know you were probably just trying to be funny, but you deeply hurt my feelings and now I'm angry with you."Or walk away and not deal with those people, if that's possible. Learning that not everyone is worthy of being your friend. Obviously teasing can turn into harrassment, too. Somewhere in between, there's a fuzzy line, possibly where the victim feels abused and the offender doesn't realize that. Kids aren't the best at reading body language.

All of which is why it's important to be able to talk about it. For Alice to come to a teacher and say "Bob called me this name" or "Bob called me this name every day for a month now" And, maybe (just maybe) Alice didn't tell Bob that this hurt her feelings, and she needs to learn to do that (no one is born with assertiveness). But Bob needs to be talked with, too; maybe he just didn't realize his behavior was hurtful and there needs to be some mediation/reconciliation. Or maybe he's having trouble at home or with another kid or something. If we just throw a label on it, Bob is the aggressor and Alice is the victim and does that really help anyone?

I think zero tolerance makes sense for things line guns/weapons and illegal drugs. I think it's ridiculous that kids get suspended/expelled/black marks on their records for silly mistakes like bringing a pocketknife to school after a camping trip (and turning it in voluntarily after realizing it!) or bringing/taking OTC painkillers (in high school!). And fighting, especially in elementary/middle school.  Sometimes, not lashing out physically is a matter of impulse control and we all know how great kids are at that. We once had two kids scuffle at summer camp when I was a counselor (totally unexpected by us), but the *instant* the first punch landed they both walked away. They knew it was wrong; they just didn't realize it was happening until it happened. Our head counselor was very lenient so after lots of very stern conversations with senior camp staff, parents, both kids, etc they were allowed to stay by a hair (and I think we were all glad, they were actually both great kids except for that one incident). So as far as school, it seems like adding fighting to the zero tolerance list  (as opposed to the "ohhh, you reeeally screwed up now" list) just completely ignores the reality of kids' emotional control and reasoning skills, at least at younger ages (basically <14yo).

I don't have any direct experience with bullying (I wasn't bullied as a kid - teased as I was semi-nerdy but nothing persistent that rose to the level of harassment or worse). And I only have a 2-year old, who's not yet in school.

My 8-year old niece, however, has been harassed for 3 years by a boy in her class. He picked her out as a target and on the playground will run up to her and say "You're ugly!" or "You're stupid!" Apparently on a very regular basis, to the point that her mom has insisted that they be in separate classrooms. Which they are. But that hasn't stopped him. My niece has apparently deployed all of the nice ideas you suggest, about telling the boy it hurts her feelings, about laughing it off, trying to ignore him, apparently she's tried everything short of physical retaliation. Teachers know he's trouble, but according to my sister they can't be everywhere all the time, so he seeks her out when teachers aren't around. All these efforts have made NO difference. NONE. The kid still has it in for her. She's starting to think she IS ugly because of this idiot kid.

It is to the point where her dad is starting to think she needs to learn how to deck him, and that just one well-aimed knee or foot will probably end it. While I'm normally an anti-violence, peace-loving person, I can't say I disagree.
We had a kid like that in my school and year after year parents and student alike said, "he won't be let back this year" and he was.  But, the nice thing of private school was that after 4-5 years (I can't remember if he was in fifth or not), he was asked not to return because he was trouble.  They did not need to catch him. 

DoubleDown

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2014, 01:58:20 PM »

My 8-year old niece, however, has been harassed for 3 years by a boy in her class. He picked her out as a target and on the playground will run up to her and say "You're ugly!" or "You're stupid!" Apparently on a very regular basis, to the point that her mom has insisted that they be in separate classrooms. Which they are. But that hasn't stopped him. My niece has apparently deployed all of the nice ideas you suggest, about telling the boy it hurts her feelings, about laughing it off, trying to ignore him, apparently she's tried everything short of physical retaliation. Teachers know he's trouble, but according to my sister they can't be everywhere all the time, so he seeks her out when teachers aren't around. All these efforts have made NO difference. NONE. The kid still has it in for her. She's starting to think she IS ugly because of this idiot kid.

It is to the point where her dad is starting to think she needs to learn how to deck him, and that just one well-aimed knee or foot will probably end it. While I'm normally an anti-violence, peace-loving person, I can't say I disagree.

That's a really crappy situation, I'd be beside myself if that was happening to my daughter. Sounds to me like the school is passing the buck.

What I would do: Have my daughter surreptitiously record this boy taunting her. In my state, it is legal to record with only one party's consent (i.e., the recorder can be the consenting party). She could just stick a phone or recording device in her pocket, and turn it on whenever the boy approached. Hell, she could even do it overtly, holding the camera right in front of her if she prefers. Then I'd take the recorded evidence to the school, and insist upon a meeting between me, the school, and the boy's parents. The message would be, that was the last time that behavior will happen, because the next time will be expulsion. And I would let the school know I'd hold them liable to enforcing it, otherwise they're maintaining a hostile environment that tolerates harassment/bullying (that should be just enough subtle "code words" to let them know they better not continue ignoring the situation).

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2014, 02:01:36 PM »

My 8-year old niece, however, has been harassed for 3 years by a boy in her class. He picked her out as a target and on the playground will run up to her and say "You're ugly!" or "You're stupid!" Apparently on a very regular basis, to the point that her mom has insisted that they be in separate classrooms. Which they are. But that hasn't stopped him. My niece has apparently deployed all of the nice ideas you suggest, about telling the boy it hurts her feelings, about laughing it off, trying to ignore him, apparently she's tried everything short of physical retaliation. Teachers know he's trouble, but according to my sister they can't be everywhere all the time, so he seeks her out when teachers aren't around. All these efforts have made NO difference. NONE. The kid still has it in for her. She's starting to think she IS ugly because of this idiot kid.

It is to the point where her dad is starting to think she needs to learn how to deck him, and that just one well-aimed knee or foot will probably end it. While I'm normally an anti-violence, peace-loving person, I can't say I disagree.

That's a really crappy situation, I'd be beside myself if that was happening to my daughter. Sounds to me like the school is passing the buck.

What I would do: Have my daughter surreptitiously record this boy taunting her. In my state, it is legal to record with only one party's consent (i.e., the recorder can be the consenting party). She could just stick a phone or recording device in her pocket, and turn it on whenever the boy approached. Hell, she could even do it overtly, holding the camera right in front of her if she prefers. Then I'd take the recorded evidence to the school, and insist upon a meeting between me, the school, and the boy's parents. The message would be, that was the last time that behavior will happen, because the next time will be expulsion. And I would let the school know I'd hold them liable to enforcing it, otherwise they're maintaining a hostile environment that tolerates harassment/bullying (that should be just enough subtle "code words" to let them know they better not continue ignoring the situation).
And you think they care?  Have you EVER heard of a school being sued and paying out for a student bullying another student.  I sure have not.

Ottawa

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 02:04:31 PM »

What I would do: Have my daughter surreptitiously record this boy taunting her. In my state, it is legal to record with only one party's consent (i.e., the recorder can be the consenting party). She could just stick a phone or recording device in her pocket, and turn it on whenever the boy approached. Hell, she could even do it overtly, holding the camera right in front of her if she prefers. Then I'd take the recorded evidence to the school, and insist upon a meeting between me, the school, and the boy's parents. The message would be, that was the last time that behavior will happen, because the next time will be expulsion. And I would let the school know I'd hold them liable to enforcing it, otherwise they're maintaining a hostile environment that tolerates harassment/bullying (that should be just enough subtle "code words" to let them know they better not continue ignoring the situation).

I like this.  It certainly worked here I would say: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/bullied-bus-monitor-collects-703k-cheque-in-toronto-1.1277712

Edit: not really interested in the financial compensation. However tables were certainly turned on individual bullying in this case, and that's the point of this I think. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 02:06:46 PM by Ottawa »

DoubleDown

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2014, 02:17:19 PM »
I think that the reason so few people that you talk to face to face will claim to have been bullied is that it's not an easy subject for those who don't have a nice "I stood up for myself and the big bad bully went away" story.

Oh yeah, one of the great myths of our time! What a pleasant fantasy: The kid stands up to the physically superior bully, who will back down when confronted, or the bully ends up respecting the kid for standing up to him, and then everything's okay.

What a crappy experience you had, glad you got through it!

Freedom2016

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 02:21:30 PM »

My 8-year old niece, however, has been harassed for 3 years by a boy in her class. He picked her out as a target and on the playground will run up to her and say "You're ugly!" or "You're stupid!" Apparently on a very regular basis, to the point that her mom has insisted that they be in separate classrooms. Which they are. But that hasn't stopped him. My niece has apparently deployed all of the nice ideas you suggest, about telling the boy it hurts her feelings, about laughing it off, trying to ignore him, apparently she's tried everything short of physical retaliation. Teachers know he's trouble, but according to my sister they can't be everywhere all the time, so he seeks her out when teachers aren't around. All these efforts have made NO difference. NONE. The kid still has it in for her. She's starting to think she IS ugly because of this idiot kid.

It is to the point where her dad is starting to think she needs to learn how to deck him, and that just one well-aimed knee or foot will probably end it. While I'm normally an anti-violence, peace-loving person, I can't say I disagree.

That's a really crappy situation, I'd be beside myself if that was happening to my daughter. Sounds to me like the school is passing the buck.

What I would do: Have my daughter surreptitiously record this boy taunting her. In my state, it is legal to record with only one party's consent (i.e., the recorder can be the consenting party). She could just stick a phone or recording device in her pocket, and turn it on whenever the boy approached. Hell, she could even do it overtly, holding the camera right in front of her if she prefers. Then I'd take the recorded evidence to the school, and insist upon a meeting between me, the school, and the boy's parents. The message would be, that was the last time that behavior will happen, because the next time will be expulsion. And I would let the school know I'd hold them liable to enforcing it, otherwise they're maintaining a hostile environment that tolerates harassment/bullying (that should be just enough subtle "code words" to let them know they better not continue ignoring the situation).

Their state is a 2-party consent state. Any other ideas? I hate how mean kids can be. :(

DoubleDown

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 02:28:54 PM »
And you think they care?  Have you EVER heard of a school being sued and paying out for a student bullying another student.  I sure have not.

I can't speak to every school district everywhere, but yes, I think they would likely care. And just as importantly, having the other parents there makes it clear they better get their kid to knock it off.

Of course, the point would not be to sue or get financial compensation from the school, but rather to get them to take action. I'm not a lawyer, but I do think a successful lawsuit could be launched against the school knowingly tolerating a kid who is harassing another. I also think the school would not want to risk finding out if such a lawsuit would succeed, and no principal wants to be the one who is responsible for the district being sued. So, the point of the not-too-subtle code words is that if they continue to tolerate it, they can expect further action.

galliver

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 02:44:48 PM »
My 8-year old niece, however, has been harassed for 3 years by a boy in her class. He picked her out as a target and on the playground will run up to her and say "You're ugly!" or "You're stupid!" Apparently on a very regular basis, to the point that her mom has insisted that they be in separate classrooms. Which they are. But that hasn't stopped him. My niece has apparently deployed all of the nice ideas you suggest, about telling the boy it hurts her feelings, about laughing it off, trying to ignore him, apparently she's tried everything short of physical retaliation. Teachers know he's trouble, but according to my sister they can't be everywhere all the time, so he seeks her out when teachers aren't around. All these efforts have made NO difference. NONE. The kid still has it in for her. She's starting to think she IS ugly because of this idiot kid.

It kind of sounds like you think I was trying to lay the responsibility at the victim's feet, which is not what I was trying to do; I was trying to point out that the situation is complicated and the solution is not necessarily just "punish the bully." You say they've been separated and the teachers know he's "trouble." So he's being written off as a bad kid, who just acts that way because he's bad? Has anyone talked to him, not about harassing your niece, but about his home life, his friendships, how he feels about himself? He's not a hardened criminal (yet), he's an 8 year old kid. Chances are, he needs to be understood and helped and taught, not managed and punished. And if I recall correctly, it's a well documented fact that a majority of bullies have been bullied or abused themselves.

That's really what it comes down to. I don't think this is a problem you can fix from the "victim end". I think you need to get rid of the bullies; and that means the incentives and causes of bullying.

DoubleDown

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 02:53:30 PM »
Their state is a 2-party consent state. Any other ideas? I hate how mean kids can be. :(

Well, the things that come to my mind are:

1. A classic bully response for that age is not to ignore it, but to just keep repeating back to the bully, "It's strange that you would say something mean like that to me." Every time he says "You're ugly" or "You're stupid" she keeps repeating, "It's weird that you keep saying that to me." Supposedly, after a while, the bully gets bored and realizes they're not getting any other reaction, but also doesn't just have a passive victim to keep taunting. So, they move on. I'd practice this several times with my daughter, pretending to be the bully, so she's ready. Just practicing this is supposed to be empowering for the victim, because now they're armed with a course of action.

2. If that didn't work, I'd suggest to my daughter that the next time the boy says something mean to her, to tell him very seriously that he had better stop it. If he says, "Or else what?" or persists, then I'd have her tell him he'd better stop it or my dad says he is going to make you stop it. I'd practice this with her too.

3. No matter what, I'd likely insist on a meeting with the school and the parents, tell them the bullying is continuing when teachers are not around, and they need to put a stop to it.

Freedom2016

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 02:55:23 PM »
I understand what you're saying, but from the perspective of a victim, those reasons don't really matter. Priority #1 has to be to stop the harassing behavior. After that, sure, yes work with the kid as you suggest to get at/address root causes.

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2014, 02:57:08 PM »
Their state is a 2-party consent state. Any other ideas? I hate how mean kids can be. :(

Well, the things that come to my mind are:

1. A classic bully response for that age is not to ignore it, but to just keep repeating back to the bully, "It's strange that you would say something mean like that to me." Every time he says "You're ugly" or "You're stupid" she keeps repeating, "It's weird that you keep saying that to me." Supposedly, after a while, the bully gets bored and realizes they're not getting any other reaction, but also doesn't just have a passive victim to keep taunting. So, they move on. I'd practice this several times with my daughter, pretending to be the bully, so she's ready. Just practicing this is supposed to be empowering for the victim, because now they're armed with a course of action.

2. If that didn't work, I'd suggest to my daughter that the next time the boy says something mean to her, to tell him very seriously that he had better stop it. If he says, "Or else what?" or persists, then I'd have her tell him he'd better stop it or my dad says he is going to make you stop it. I'd practice this with her too.

3. No matter what, I'd likely insist on a meeting with the school and the parents, tell them the bullying is continuing when teachers are not around, and they need to put a stop to it.
He already knows the teachers won't be able to stop him, why would he think another adult could?  I really don't understand some of the comments on here.

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2014, 09:08:55 PM »
Presumably the boy has been told to stay away from her, right?  Tell her to scream next time.  No words, just volume.  This should a) startle him and b) attract attention from everyone.  Kids that age can produce an impressive volume.

As for gently telling the bully that they're hurting your feelings, I say that's garbage.  They act that way so that they can feel powerful by pushing someone else down.  I got the same advice from a school counselor and it remains to this day the stupidest thing anyone has said to me.  Keep looking through the administration.  You may find someone who's willing to take a sterner line, and make it clear that this is not acceptable behavour.  By permitting this they are damaging your niece, the bully (who is learning antisocial behaviours) and the rest of the kids who are realising that they are also vulnerable to this sort of attack.  There are a thousand opportunities each year for a kid to 'toughen up' at their own pace.  The sort of impotent rage the being bullied causes is the sort of weight you carry around for a lifetime.

DoubleDown

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2014, 09:29:21 AM »
He already knows the teachers won't be able to stop him, why would he think another adult could?  I really don't understand some of the comments on here.

Because I'm intimidating.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2014, 09:59:06 AM »
I think we all agree that bullying is wrong but its the definition that varies greatly from one person to another. 

I see it as prolonged, repitious harrasment (verbal or physical) that is clearly one sided.  Much of what people call bullying today is adolescent conflict and not bullying and sometimes there is one kid that appears to be the bully because they are bigger/stronger but ignores that the smaller/weaker kid is in fact doing the taunting/provoking that leads to the act by the bully.

Like in sports - its almost always the one that throws the second hit/act of agression that gets the penalty....why because nobody sees the first one.

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2014, 10:16:33 AM »
He already knows the teachers won't be able to stop him, why would he think another adult could?  I really don't understand some of the comments on here.

Because I'm intimidating.
Sure you are, lol.  So go try to intimidate a minor and see how well that works.

scottydog

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2014, 11:08:22 AM »
He already knows the teachers won't be able to stop him, why would he think another adult could?  I really don't understand some of the comments on here.

Because I'm intimidating.
Sure you are, lol.  So go try to intimidate a minor and see how well that works.

When I was a kid in rural Ontario, our next-door neighbour was a police officer in an urban region (come to think of it, he had a very anti-mustachian commute).  One of his kids, in kindergarten or grade 1 at the time, was being bullied on the bus by another kid in grade 2 or 3.  I had only ever seen my neighbour when he was out jogging, or at parties, and he was always relaxed and laughing a lot, so he didn't seem scary at all.  That said, he was big and had a deep voice.  Well, after his son was bullied a few times on the bus, and the bus driver and school were unable to stop it, my neighbour got onto the bus with his kids one morning, glowered over the whole bus full of kids, and growled out, "Which one of you kids is Hugh Turner?"*  The rest of the story is fuzzy in my memory, but I think that was all it took to stop the bullying.  The bully was known for being mean, and I can only imagine the other youngsters on the bus cheering inwardly as this transpired.

I think the idea of intimidating minors different for a police officer than a member of the general public.  He was already in a position of authority to anyone who's disturbing the peace, and he had training and years of experience in applying and moderating the degree of intimidation.  I wouldn't advocate just anyone to try intimidating a minor because I can see many ways that it can backfire against the adult, and I can't imagine many in which it turns out appropriately.

* Hugh Turner is a fake name from http://random-name-generator.info

brewer12345

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2014, 03:15:10 PM »
I personally believe that the only way to really deal with a bad bullying situation is to beat the shit out of the bully, using a brick or whatever else is handy if necessary.  Clearly this does not fly in today's schools and it isn't what teach the kids, but if push came to shove this is the last resort that some bullies will push people to.  Fortunately our school district seems very aware and proactive in dealing with bullying, so it should never come to that.

DoubleDown

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2014, 05:13:34 PM »
He already knows the teachers won't be able to stop him, why would he think another adult could?  I really don't understand some of the comments on here.

Because I'm intimidating.
Sure you are, lol.  So go try to intimidate a minor and see how well that works.

To be clear, I said I would suggest that my daughter tell the bully that if he doesn't stop, her dad will make him stop. That would likely be the end of it. I did not suggest having me, an adult, go to the school and start bullying an 8 year old. But if push came to shove, my daughter and I would make him stop one way or another. Just because the school personnel are lackadaisical about it, and the kid recognizes there's no enforcement of rules by them, doesn't mean no one could be successful stopping the behavior. I've told out-of-control kids at playgrounds to knock off their dangerous behavior, and they do it, even though their oblivious parents are ignoring their kid punching or stomping all over the other kids. It just takes bending down to their level, looking them in the eye, a firm voice, and the will to tell them to knock it off. When you're 8, grown men can be intimidating that way.

Gin1984

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2014, 06:31:23 PM »
He already knows the teachers won't be able to stop him, why would he think another adult could?  I really don't understand some of the comments on here.

Because I'm intimidating.
Sure you are, lol.  So go try to intimidate a minor and see how well that works.

To be clear, I said I would suggest that my daughter tell the bully that if he doesn't stop, her dad will make him stop. That would likely be the end of it. I did not suggest having me, an adult, go to the school and start bullying an 8 year old. But if push came to shove, my daughter and I would make him stop one way or another. Just because the school personnel are lackadaisical about it, and the kid recognizes there's no enforcement of rules by them, doesn't mean no one could be successful stopping the behavior. I've told out-of-control kids at playgrounds to knock off their dangerous behavior, and they do it, even though their oblivious parents are ignoring their kid punching or stomping all over the other kids. It just takes bending down to their level, looking them in the eye, a firm voice, and the will to tell them to knock it off. When you're 8, grown men can be intimidating that way.
It depends on the kid.  I've seen some kids who don't care, mostly because their parents have taught them to be little shits.  The options though are, remove your child, sue (probably won't work), teach your child to defend him or herself (and then sue over the fall out, I have seen that be won).  Saying, "my daddy will make you stop", will get the kid teased even more.  The little shits who know the adults can't do a damn thing, are not going to care what you say because they can just run to mommy and she will bitch you out.

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2014, 08:55:20 PM »
I was harassed a ton as a kid for my weight and a slight physical disability. I had six inches and fifty pounds or more on the kids doing the bullying, so when pushed far enough I lashed out - and the resulting fights were pretty ridiculously one-sided. After a few of those it pretty much stopped.

If it's a small kid being physically bullied, I'd go the self-defense route if you can find a competent dojo (harder than you would think). Or, in my case, I'd dust off my skills and teach my kids myself.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!