Brock Turner

[Gin1984]

Yeah, the thing I don't understand is why the judge is taking all the heat when he's following the probation officer recommendation. That probation officer is probably very thankful that her name is not public (that I'm aware of).

I agree that 6 months is a joke, but I don't know if recalling the judge would make a good precedent. If seems like these days, the court of public opinion is trying to take the place of actual, legal court, in a lot of cases.

He went against the state minimums, so yes he should be held responsible for that.  In addition, the state says that in cases like these probation is not standard, he allowed it so basically this rapist gets 3 months.  And both of them decided to basically tell ALL college rapists OPEN SEASON, so yes if you want to do that, you should be fired/recalled.  I say this a Californian and as a woman who went through college and as a researcher who has done lit reviews on college rape. 

[Hotstreak]

Brock Turner was not convicted of rape, he was not even charged with rape.   

Huh?  "Sexual assault" is not rape to you?  Is it because he didn't use his penis to penetrate? 

Here's a fun game:  ask a friend to stick his finger in your anus when you're asleep while dry humping you, and see if you don't feel violated.

He was convicted of sexual assault.

Of course they are different.  How do you think they are not?  The spelling is not even similar!

[TheOldestYoungMan]

Now that this thread has descended into the depths of nonsense - do men grow up being trained to be wary of women who will grab and molest them?  Of women who will grab at body parts in passing?  Do they worry about the woman on the hotel elevator late at night?  Do they plan their walk home from work in the dark so that it is as safe as possible?  Do they worry more about women than bears and mountain lions when they go camping? And worry about women who will put rohypnol in their drinks at a bar?

Brock Turner is a rapist.

But the answer to all of your questions is yes.  Don't go near that aunt, watch out for those women over there, the men in my life were careful to point out all risks, including risks from women.  So we worry about the women in the hotel elevator late at night?  Are you kidding me?  Of course we do.  Except the bears and mountain lions thing, personally I worry most about snakes or running out of beer while camping.  I camp far enough away from any other people, that's sort of the whole point to me.  Shit, that might have been victim blaming.

Here's where the message goes off the rails when this group is trying to get me on board:

Rapist = Rapist
Men = usually not rapists
Women = usually not rapists

So to fix your questions:

Now that this thread has descended into the depths of nonsense - do men people grow up being trained to be wary of womenpeople who will grab and molest them?  Of womenpeople who will grab at body parts in passing?  Do they worry about the womanpeople on the hotel elevator late at night?  Do they plan their walk home from work in the dark so that it is as safe as possible?  Do they worry more about womenpeople than bears and mountain lions when they go camping? And worry about womenpeople who will put rohypnol in their drinks at a bar?

Yes, people worry about that.  But whenever anyone suggests that there are things you can do to avoid bears while camping, that's somehow victim blaming and rape culture.

Until I can provide a civilization where there are no rapists (and you please let me know how to do that, hint, killing all the men won't make it so) it isn't victim blaming to say:  don't get black out drunk, don't hang out in shady places, don't do risky things.  By all means don't take that to mean you are forbidden from doing them, it's just how anyperson tells any other person about risks.  Doing this increases your chances of getting raped.  Doing this other thing increases your chances of being lit on fire.  I am not surprised when you do it anyway and get raped.  I am not surprised when your loving relatives light the rapist on fire.

Presented with a scenario where there are indeed rapists, you think a reasonable solution is to wail at the top of your lungs that there shouldn't be rapists.  I do not disagree.

It sounds crazy because it is.

Present another solution.  It isn't my fault that there isn't an easy one.

I don't even have a concept of what it would look like.  I want to believe.  I want to be a member.  I want to fix the problem.  But there are rapists.  If you insist on Man = rapist; then you lose me, because that is nonsense.

[Gin1984]

Now that this thread has descended into the depths of nonsense - do men grow up being trained to be wary of women who will grab and molest them?  Of women who will grab at body parts in passing?  Do they worry about the woman on the hotel elevator late at night?  Do they plan their walk home from work in the dark so that it is as safe as possible?  Do they worry more about women than bears and mountain lions when they go camping? And worry about women who will put rohypnol in their drinks at a bar?

Brock Turner is a rapist.

But the answer to all of your questions is yes.  Don't go near that aunt, watch out for those women over there, the men in my life were careful to point out all risks, including risks from women.  So we worry about the women in the hotel elevator late at night?  Are you kidding me?  Of course we do.  Except the bears and mountain lions thing, personally I worry most about snakes or running out of beer while camping.  I camp far enough away from any other people, that's sort of the whole point to me.  Shit, that might have been victim blaming.

Here's where the message goes off the rails when this group is trying to get me on board:

Rapist = Rapist
Men = usually not rapists
Women = usually not rapists

So to fix your questions:

Now that this thread has descended into the depths of nonsense - do men people grow up being trained to be wary of womenpeople who will grab and molest them?  Of womenpeople who will grab at body parts in passing?  Do they worry about the womanpeople on the hotel elevator late at night?  Do they plan their walk home from work in the dark so that it is as safe as possible?  Do they worry more about womenpeople than bears and mountain lions when they go camping? And worry about womenpeople who will put rohypnol in their drinks at a bar?

Yes, people worry about that.  But whenever anyone suggests that there are things you can do to avoid bears while camping, that's somehow victim blaming and rape culture.

Until I can provide a civilization where there are no rapists (and you please let me know how to do that, hint, killing all the men won't make it so) it isn't victim blaming to say:  don't get black out drunk, don't hang out in shady places, don't do risky things.  By all means don't take that to mean you are forbidden from doing them, it's just how anyperson tells any other person about risks.  Doing this increases your chances of getting raped.  Doing this other thing increases your chances of being lit on fire.  I am not surprised when you do it anyway and get raped.  I am not surprised when your loving relatives light the rapist on fire.

Presented with a scenario where there are indeed rapists, you think a reasonable solution is to wail at the top of your lungs that there shouldn't be rapists.  I do not disagree.

It sounds crazy because it is.

Present another solution.  It isn't my fault that there isn't an easy one.

I don't even have a concept of what it would look like.  I want to believe.  I want to be a member.  I want to fix the problem.  But there are rapists.  If you insist on Man = rapist; then you lose me, because that is nonsense.

I would agree not all men are rapists, not even most men are rapists however a large minority would be:
31.7 percent of participants said they would act on “intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse” if they were confident they could get away with it. When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed: (i.e., “Have you ever coerced somebody to intercourse by holding them down?”) versus labeling survey items (i.e., “Have you ever raped somebody?”) will yield different responses, in that more men will admit to sexually coercive behaviors and more women will self-report victimization when behavioral descriptions are used.
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/vio.2014.0022?journalCode=vio
So the basic solution is to train young people, both girls and boys what rape is. 
Then we have this part of the study:
They found that the men who were comfortable admitting their “intentions to rape” displayed a wide range of outwardly hostile attitudes toward women. The men who rejected the “rape” language, but said they would still use force against a woman, didn’t display that level of outward hostility. But they were still linked with what the researchers defined as “callous sexual attitudes”: a set of cultural stereotypes about women as objects and men as aggressors that feeds into hyper-masculinity.
Now keeping in mind that COLLEGE rapists average almost 6 rapes/rapist you can see the unsafe feelings which combined explain why women feel like and are trained to be on the look out more than men.  Now to your idea that men and women are both at risk.... data does not support that they are equally at risk.  Nor does it support that men do the same things women do to avoid said assault.

[RetiredAt63]

@Gin1984 - thanks for replying, the voice of reason.
@TheOldestYoungMan - of course most men are not rapists.  But enough are, or have major senses of entitlement that means they expect things from women that the women are not ready to do.  I suggest you read some of Captain Awkward and see how much difficulty women have saying "no" to a man and have it be heard in a respectful manner.  Soft nos don't produce as much irritation and anger but tend to be ignored, hard nos often produce anger. And sometimes violence.  Many men seem fine at first but behaviour changes when they are told no, or are being "nice" to get something, not because they are truly nice.  You will often see these men described as "nice guys" instead of as nice guys - the quotes are on purpose to show there are hidden agendas.  And especially in the university student age group, guys can be very pushy.  Very pushy = ignore boundaries.