Birth Control & Libido

[justajane]

Perhaps I'm just naïve, but in my formulation of love, you don't break up with somebody just because they aren't able to change themselves to be exactly how you want. Instead, if you actually love somebody, you think of all the ways to resolve the situation, inducing adopting less conventional approaches if necessary.

First off, I don't imagine he is looking for "exactly" what he wants. That's the compromise side of the relationship. Like above when certain partners have said they would want sex twice a day but, because their partner doesn't have that much of a libido, they have compromised at five times a week or whatever. I imagine if this girl came to him and said, "you're right, I struggle with sexual desire but because I care about you, let's have sex X number of times a week or month," that he would be okay with that, even if he would prefer more. (Feel free to weigh in here, Cwadda :)).

Keep in mind that this is a three month relationship. I would possibly agree with you if they were in a 5 or 10 year partnership they could explore even creative options like an open relationship, but three months? This is still a preliminary stage of a relationship in which it is probably best to cut bait if it turns out that they are not compatible in a profound way. And I would say never wanting to initiate or have physical contact (and notice I am saying physical contact in general and NOT just sexual intercourse) is a pretty big incompatibility if one part of the couple wants it.

Say he came to her and said, I really want to be with you, but if you don't have sex with me, I'm considering scratching that itch elsewhere. I know this isn't what you meant when you wrote about that particular compromise, but I'm having a hard time in my head figuring out how that conversation would go down practically. Maybe it would only work if she suggested it. But, of course, it doesn't sound like that's what Cwadda wants. He is attracted to her. He wants to have sex with her.

You can have love or an emotional connection without the type of romantic compatibility that will stand the test of time. I think that's what Cwadda is asking and why he is asking for advice. Maybe they are better as close friends. It's hard to say. 

All in all, a difficult situation. 

[Bakari]

Strictly speaking, Cathy is correct - it is a form of "ultimatum" in the long run.
However, there is really nothing wrong with that.  No one should be totally indiscriminate in who they partner with, you don't just pick a person at random and then stick with them no matter what.  You pick someone who is special to you and who meets whatever standards and criteria you have that makes you happy. 
So, if you are at the beginning of a relationship, and you learn about something you didn't know before, you have 3 choices: spend a lifetime unhappy, give up immediately and just end it, OR talk with them and find out if there may be some compromise to be found.  Yeah, technically, if they refuse to compromise, the relationship should end, so its a form of ultimatum - but in that case the relationship should end.


Between your earlier question and these comments, I (and clearly others) are guessing that Cathy is "asexual", i.e. has no sexual attraction to anyone and no sexual desire - and presumably never has, since you can't understand why anyone else would find that valuable or important.
But living in the world of people you must have at least noticed that the majority of other people do, right?  You don't have to understand something to recognize that it exists.


Your analogy to luxury sports cars suggests you believe that people only find sex valuable because of the social implications. But human culture didn't invent sex (as it invented cars and money).  Biology did that.  While there is still no consensus on why some asexual exceptions exists, the fact is that the value of sex is built in to basically every multi-cellular organism, since millions of years before humans existed.  Your implication is that maybe the solution is Cwadda should just stop caring about sex (since it has no rational objective value anyway), but a better analogy than sports cars would be telling someone who has no appetite "that's not a problem, just stop eating".


To be fair, the possibility that Cwadda's girlfriend might be asexual did not occur to anyone else, and it is a legitimate possibility.  Its rare (the statistical likelihood of a religious background or past abuse are much much higher), but certainly not unique.  But then again, that's something that that conversation would bring out, and then he would know. At the same time, if that were the case, the fact that she withheld that information would be a serious issue all its own.

And, as someone already pointed out, his first post wasn't all about penises inside of vaginas. 
"She has never unprovokenly told me I'm attractive in any way or kissed me"
If there is zero romantic or physical side to the relationship, then it just sounds like a friendship with people who happen to be different sexes.
Say he was willing to compromise and get sexual fulfillment elsewhere.  Are you also suggesting that he should be content to never have any form of affection or even verbal compliments from his partner, and that should just be ok?

[Cathy]

And, as someone already pointed out, his first post wasn't all about penises inside of vaginas. 
"She has never unprovokenly told me I'm attractive in any way or kissed me"
If there is zero romantic or physical side to the relationship, then it just sounds like a friendship with people who happen to be different sexes. ...

"Romantic" is an amorphous term.

Failure to compliment one's partner isn't necessarily indicative of a lack of romantic attraction. It could just be her first relationship and she isn't familiar with what people want, or what her boyfriend in particular wants. Actually, that was another complaint that I had with some of the replies (although not yours, Bakari) -- some of the posters seem to have equated a lack of compliments with a lack of romantic interest, which is just not the case. The particular issue of compliments seems like something that could easily be worked out with a discussion, and I certainly did not suggest otherwise.

Kissing is potentially a more complicated issue because it's probably harder to solve through a discussion. Not everybody appreciates physical touching, but that also doesn't by itself indicate a lack of romantic interest.

To be fair, the possibility that Cwadda's girlfriend might be asexual did not occur to anyone else, and it is a legitimate possibility.  Its rare (the statistical likelihood of a religious background or past abuse are much much higher), but certainly not unique.  But then again, that's something that that conversation would bring out, and then he would know. At the same time, if that were the case, the fact that she withheld that information would be a serious issue all its own.

Sometimes people have not yet found the right terms to describe themselves, or they aren't aware that they are different from other people. You actually pointed this out yourself, Bakari, in an earlier post when you said that "[c]hances are she sees the way she is as normal". A corollary of seeing the way you are as normal is not necessarily realising that there is anything to be discussed or disclosed. This does not mean anything has been withheld.

... And I would say never wanting to initiate or have physical contact (and notice I am saying physical contact in general and NOT just sexual intercourse) is a pretty big incompatibility if one part of the couple wants it. ...

So, if you are at the beginning of a relationship, and you learn about something you didn't know before, you have 3 choices: spend a lifetime unhappy ...

I'm certainly not suggesting that anybody should "spend a lifetime unhappy", but the question of what makes you happy is within your control. I do not believe there is a biological basis for the proposition that physical contract is necessary for a romantic relationship. That is a narrative that each person can either choose to accept or reject as she sees fit.

In the past, I have fallen in romantic love with somebody based purely on text conversations with the person over a prolonged period. I don't believe that I am unique in that regard. If I ever fall in love again, I expect it will be based on a person's writing, not on their touching. Love and romance aren't inextricably connected with physical touching. Love is about sharing your life with another person or persons. There is an overwhelming amount of popular media that suggests an ironclad connection between physical touching and romantic relationships, but we have the power to critically analyse that media and decide for ourselves what makes us happy.

To be clear, I don't deny that there is a biological basis for what some people describe as their sexual needs. What I call a "narrative" is the linkage of those needs with a romantic relationship.

[goatmom]

Never have taken hormonal bcps.  I have migraines and my neurologist told me when I was 15 years old to never ever go on the pill.  So, I didn't.  We did use fertility awareness and it was very easy, cheap, effective, and didn't require me to put artificial hormones into my body or into the water supply.  But, we were open to a pregnancy if it happened.

[Bakari]

the question of what makes you happy is within your control.

If that were really true, then every sane person would choose to enjoy working 12 hour days 6 days a week, have fun paying bills and getting immunizations... whatever things one had to do to survive.  People's entertainment would consist exclusively of staring at walls, since its completely free, you can do it anywhere anytime, with no training or effort.  But of course we don't get to just choose to enjoy or not enjoy things...
Do you enjoy some foods more than others?  Why, if it is a choice, wouldn't you choose to enjoy all foods, since that would bring more potential joy into your life?

I do not believe there is a biological basis for the proposition that physical contract is necessary for a romantic relationship.

I suppose everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but science says there is a biological basis for the connection between physical touch and emotional attachment.  See "oxytocin".  Also vasopressin.  The same brain hormones and neurotransmitters stimulated by affection, orgasm, and childbirth, are directly correlated, in both human and animal studies, with maternal and mate bonding.  Unless you think prairie voles are also buying into a cultural narrative...

[Cwadda]

Okay, lots of replies coming up. Might break this into a few posts.

Also noting I really don't mean to derail the original topic.

Why don't you ask her?

I'm definitely going to talk to her about this type of thing. But the question is: how? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Phrased in a way that's "accusing" her of not finding me attractive is a very difficult thing to say and would do some damage to our relationship.

That's really hard, Cwadda. I really feel for you. Do you think the straightforward approach would work with her? i.e. "Physical contact is really important to me. It's a major way I express love and affection. I need this in a long term relationship."

By sexual encounter, I assume you mean intercourse? Have you had steamy make-out sessions or touching sessions? Has she ever had an orgasm with you? Has she had a serious sexual relationship before this? Is it possible she's never experienced sexual passion?

I think this information would be important for you to know. In other words, it might not be that she isn't attracted to you but rather that she hasn't unlocked that side of herself. 21 would be somewhat late for this to happen, but sometimes it takes a while. Is she religious? Could there be other mitigating factors? A history of abuse? I'm just spitballing here.

If this is the most emotionally fulfilling relationship you've ever had, I think it's worthwhile to at least try to see if it could work. But long term, I don't think it's tenable to be with someone who is always too tired, especially this early in the relationship.

We are very good about having open communication about serious subjects. I am definitely going to try a straightforward, honest approach.

Yes, but encounter I mean intercourse. We've had 2-3 heavy make-out sessions, the most recent a few weeks ago that ended 5 minutes of the way in with her saying she was tired, apologizing profusely, saying she will make it up to me. At that point we talked about how I would never want to pressure her into having sex, etc. and that I never would want to feel like she has to "make up" anything. She assured me she was totally comfortable and didn't feel pressured. Great!

I do think that this could be the case. She seemingly has no interest in finishing, doesn't want oral, etc. I tried asking a bit why she doesn't want oral but she will not give me a clear answer. So no, she has not had an orgasm with me, but I would very much like her to! I don't know for sure, but I don't think there are any immediate mitigating factors i.e. religion, history of abuse, etc.

You need to talk to her, but simply asking straight forward the questions you ultimately want to know about probably won't work.  Chances are she sees the way she is as normal, just like you think your expectations as normal. So you'd just be talking past each other. Instead of focusing on what her reactions mean to or about you, you probably should start with the focus on what sexuality in general means to her (completely independent of your relationship). What/when/how did she learn about sex as a child?  Has she ever felt strongly attracted to anyone? Has she ever been vocal about those feelings with anyone (either the target of them, or girlfriends)? What does she feel is the relationship between physical and emotional intimacy?
You might want to learn more about where she is coming from before you tell her about your needs and preferences (least she feel obligated to conform more to what you have said).

Yes, this is the type of conversation I'm looking to have.

A couple of things:

First, you have to talk to her. You have to tell her pretty much exactly what you wrote above.  How? Find a way. Maybe have a beer first to loosen yourself up, but do it. Why? Because this will eventually break you up if you don't. And at least if you talk to her, you can see whether she will work on it. Whether she likes you enough to put in the effort.  And if not, that gives you your answer, either way.

Second, if this is the most emotionally fulfilling relationship you have ever had, but you also have a huge part of the relationship that is not emotionally fulfilling... then (if your conversation with her doesn't change anything) my guess is your past relationships have not been very good and you are too young to know to expect more from them.  If I could go back in time and talk to my younger self, I would say that I spent far too much time waiting for boyfriends to turn into the people I wanted them to be, rather than recognizing that I should be letting go of relationships that weren't what I needed so we could both move on to find what we did need.  If your girlfriend is not receptive and does not begin to give you more of what you need, then I would give the same advice to you.

I'm not keen on saying exactly what I wrote above. Because like another poster mentioned, to her her actions are quite normal, but differ from what my normal expectations are. So to say she is doing something right because she doesn't know my expectations isn't fair. We'd be talking past one another. 

Combination of both: I've had very few past relationships and they have not been nearly as mature, fulfilling, etc. as this one. So I'm really interested in developing and improving this one.

Cwadda has elicited some pretty extreme replies here, especially (but not only) from justajane.

Let's just take a step back for a minute and imagine a parallel situation. Suppose a new member "Johnny Consumer" signed up for this forum and started a thread in the "Ask a Mustachian" subforum with the following hypothetical fact pattern:

I have always loved buying $100,000 cars. They make me feel strong and manly. I buy at least one per year, trading in the previous one with the dealer for a credit equal to a fraction of its value. But there's a problem. My girlfriend never tells me how much she loves my cars. In fact, if I didn't know better, I would think she disapproved of how I spend my money. She talks a lot about saving for retirement, and she never goes out to eat. She wants to go on walks with me rather than drive in my $100,000 cars. Recently I got into a big fight with her because I had to take out a payday loan to afford my car payments. I love her very much, but money is driving us apart. Aside from her refusal to praise my cars, it is the most emotionally fulfilling relationship that I have ever had. Knowledgeable forum members, what should I do?

Although I called these facts "hypothetical", we actually get similar threads on a regular basis, and MMM himself has addressed this topic in several blog posts. As a community, our general approach is to suggest that the spendypants partner reconsider his preferences and extricate himself from consumer suckerism. We're all aware of the very strong societal narrative that says that people should spend all their money, but we've critically analysed that narrative and found that it doesn't need to be a part of our lives. And we often help impart that knowledge onto other people.

But if justajane were replying to our hypothetical thread-starter above, her reply would be along the lines of the following:

That's really hard, Johnny. I really feel for you. Do you think the straightforward approach would work with her? i.e. "Expensive cars are really important to me. Sharing them is a major way I express love and affection. I need this in a long term relationship." ... I think some background information would be important for you to know. In other words, it might not be that she is frugal but rather that she hasn't unlocked that consumer side of herself yet. 21 would be somewhat late for this to happen, but sometimes it takes a while. Is she religious? Could there be other mitigating factors? A history of abuse? I'm just spitballing here.

Somehow, when the topic is sex rather than money, all of the critical thinking skills go out the window and posters here recommend an ultimatum of "Fuck me or else".

Instead of uncritically accepting societal narratives, how about deconstructing them? More importantly, where is the sensitivity and compassion? Instead of an ultimatum to comply with society's norms, how about exploring other options?

justajane clearly and obviously did, in fact, suggest an ultimatum. This is not a misrepresentation. Let's begin by looking at what the words "suggest" and "ultimatum" mean.

I in no way shape or form deduced juatajane's post as recommending issuing an ultimatum, nor did I find it extreme. I do not feel like any of the replies have been extreme or have had a lack of compassion, etc. I'm sorry if any of the replies came across to you and you felt offended in any way.

Honestly I posted at 3:00 in the morning to vent and get any sort of advice. And the posts have been REALLY helpful. What set me off is when I recently walked into class and the first thing I heard when I sat down is a woman I barely know tell me how handsome I looked that day.

Cwadda - I agree that this is a conversation you need to have with her.  At 21, I wouldn't find it at all surprising if she's still really unsure about a lot of these things herself. Women get a lot of mixed messages about sex in our society, and in a lot of cases, the take away message is "damned if you do, damned if you don't."  She may even be interested but worried you'll think she's a slut if she acts interested. (Something I used to struggle with myself when I was younger) I would recommend having the conversation somewhere where it doesn't feel like there is any immediate pressure to have sex (not in a bedroom!) In fact, my personal suggestion would be not to have sex the night after having that discussion even if she indicates that she would be willing just to avoid the risk of feeling like you are putting pressure on her.

Yes, thank you for the advice, especially about the setting!

[Cwadda]

So yes, I advocate open communication. But my point is that that communication can survey a wide range of topics -- including deconstructing a person's stated "needs", and exploring less conventional forms of relationships (possibly including more than two people). Communication is not just limited to asking one partner to change. That's what I thought was "extreme". Kris summed this up well in one of her posts when she said "If your girlfriend is not receptive and does not begin to give you more of what you need, then I would [suggest you break up with her]". Why is the only option on the table that the girlfriend needs to change?

Unconventional ways i.e. possibly including more than two people are strictly not going to happen. I want to be with one person and I know she wants the same. But I appreciate your thinking of outside the box and challenging us to think of alternatives :)

It might be that she hasn't unlocked her sexuality, like folks have mentioned. And she doesn't need to just change; it comes down to compromise. We've had compromise through open communication on a few things now. And that's been great and improved our relationship. So I'm looking to apply the same principle to this current situation. It's just a touchy subject for us both, really, so it's been difficult to find the right way of talking about it.

First off, I don't imagine he is looking for "exactly" what he wants. That's the compromise side of the relationship. Like above when certain partners have said they would want sex twice a day but, because their partner doesn't have that much of a libido, they have compromised at five times a week or whatever. I imagine if this girl came to him and said, "you're right, I struggle with sexual desire but because I care about you, let's have sex X number of times a week or month," that he would be okay with that, even if he would prefer more. (Feel free to weigh in here, Cwadda :)).

Keep in mind that this is a three month relationship. I would possibly agree with you if they were in a 5 or 10 year partnership they could explore even creative options like an open relationship, but three months? This is still a preliminary stage of a relationship in which it is probably best to cut bait if it turns out that they are not compatible in a profound way. And I would say never wanting to initiate or have physical contact (and notice I am saying physical contact in general and NOT just sexual intercourse) is a pretty big incompatibility if one part of the couple wants it.

Yes, well said.

You can have love or an emotional connection without the type of romantic compatibility that will stand the test of time. I think that's what Cwadda is asking and why he is asking for advice. Maybe they are better as close friends. It's hard to say. 

Yes! Exactly a reason I'm asking for advice.

Phew, I've replied to a bunch of things now, hope the information helps. Also, should I start a separate thread?

[Flyingkea]

A lot of people need physical contact to remain healthy and sane. An extreme case - but take the romanian orphanages, where babies who did not get the touch they needed failed to thrive, and in many cases died, despite other needs being met. Adults often get their needed touch through sexual contact.

I'm a person who needs a certain amount of touch, I had really bad 'skin hunger' when I was living on my own, and I was starving for the slightest part of human contact.

Ok, maybe this is slightly off topic. But since it seems like the majority of replies on here are from women, I'd really appreciate your advice.

I've (21m) been seeing my current S/O (21f) for a little over 3 months. Amazing woman. The most emotionally fulfilling relationship I've ever had. But I have one problem, and that's that I'm not convinced she's attracted to me. She has never kissed ME, and we've had a total of one sexual encounter ever. The only time she says I'm handsome, etc. is sometimes when I tell her she is first. She has never unprovokenly told me I'm attractive in any way or kissed me. I tell her how attractive she is on a regular basis. And I actually DO think she is! I'm very sexually attracted to her too. But every time I initiate her response is always she is tired. So I stopped initiating and asked if she was uncomfortable with anything sexual-related. She assured me nothing was wrong.

Honestly I'm extremely frustrated when other women say I'm attractive but the person I'm closest with and could talk about anything with will not. Does this mean we should stick to being friends? How do I even go about talking to her about this?

Also want to mention that she's on oral birth control and she's been on it a while, from before we met I think. I don't know which kind of brand.

Again, sorry this is off-topic but I'd really like some outsider's perspectives. Didn't want to make a whole thread about it. I've been talking to my friends a bit about it, and will be talking about it more very soon.

Cwadda there could be a whole raft of things going on here, but open, honest communication is key to working through this.
A very non exhaustive list of things that have the potential to be going on here:
-She could've been abused previously.
- She could be asexual
- her birth control has killed her libido
- she comes from a religious upbringing that strongly frowns on sex before marriage
- she doesn't feel comfortable having sex - this one has a whole list of reasons as to why - if a virgin, she might be scared of the pain. She might view sex as a chore. She has a previous bad sexual encounter. She has poor self esteem. She feels that sex will nake her vulnerable.
Our society has a really bad double standard about sex for women. Women are expect to be chaste, lest they be labelled sluts, whores, and worse. Should a sexual encounter go wrong, the woman is usually blamed in some way.

How much physical contact do you have? I think it has been shown that lots of touch helps improve sex drive, so if she consents, lots of small gestures like footrubs, shoulder rubs, hugs, hand on the shoulder type touching might help too.
As I said before, communication is really important, so finding out what she is thinking and feeling, listening without the intent of rebutting her comments, or explaining away her feelings is vital.

[boy_bye]

I think it is better not to have sex drive with contraception than to have sex drive and go through abortion

You should definitely not have an abortion then. I'm really glad that option is available to me and to other women who want and need it.