Big sled, no dogs.

[scottish]

This is the arctic equivalent of Big hat, no cattle.

I was watching the Munk debate tonight.    One of the candidates referred to the sitting prime minister's arctic commitments as expressed by the locals.   It was a very humourous moment.

[marty998]

The Australian version is "All tip, no iceberg".

The Prime Minister at the time (Paul Keating) coined that phrase over 20 years ago. Still gets a good run today.

[RetiredAt63]

Staying on topic (Canadian election), sort of - Harperman round 2

Blue Rodeo have a protest song out on their web site, Stealin' all my dreams
http://www.bluerodeo.com/stealingdreams/
Nice music video, and a list of the issues - my, it is long.

At least they are safe from civil servant retaliation.

Also, someone I was speaking to yesterday (same riding as I am in) said for us locally the big thing is to get our local CPC MP not re-elected. Wow, I thought around here everyone but me loved him.

[music lover]

I once said this about Trudeau back when he beat former astronaut Marc Garneau to become party leader: "They could have had a rocket scientist for leader, but chose a space cadet."

[RetiredAt63]

Oh, I know - can we co-opt Hadfield?  Even better than reading "An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth" is listening to the Audiobook, which he narrates.  Such a smart, sensible, capable, and unpretentious person. I love his take on being a zero. And he plays guitar quite nicely too.

I once said this about Trudeau back when he beat former astronaut Marc Garneau to become party leader: "They could have had a rocket scientist for leader, but chose a space cadet."

[scottish]

I've been surprised how many of the older folks in my neighbourhood can't stand Harper.    I'm equally surprised when one of my peer group likes him.  This is going to be a very interesting election.

[RetiredAt63]

Why be surprised old folks don't like him?  He has shown himself to be ageist and ableist and anti-urban - the Post Office home delivery issue is a killer for many older people who are managing to stay in their homes.  Look at how long it can take Ottawa to clear sidewalks in residential areas after a big snow; that means many people won't get their mail for days, they won't be able to get to the community boxes if they have to climb over snow banks. A friend of mine in her 70's who lives in Ottawa is really unhappy about this.  I feel a bit guilty because I am rural, I will still just have to walk down my driveway and get my mail from my box.  Of course being rural means I have to get that driveway cleared, but that is a price I have chosen for rural life.  Canada Post has had only one negative quarter in years, and that was mostly due to a strike, so the cost issue is a false reason.  And of course, if they can take a standard government service away from one group, what is to prevent them from taking it away from another group, or taking another service away?  Look at veterans affairs losing service centers.

Once a government is shown to be so insensitive to ordinary people's needs in one area, people start looking more critically at their other actions. 

People are not always rational - I have met a chemist (yes, not UK pharmacy chemist, but a Chemistry type chemist) who believes in creation - most science types go more for evolution.  Not that scientists can't also be religious, but they tend to go for a more detached view of how the universe got going.  So there can still be Torontonians who love Rob Ford, and voters who love Harper, and voters who will vote CPC even though they don't like Harper (who seems to have taken on the worst aspects of the old Reform and Progressive Conservative platforms, instead of the best.  Like, Let's reform the Senate, but while we don't, let's appoint really self-serving political people instead of people who will do their job as Senators, which is to be the House of second sober thought).

[GuitarStv]

Said as a 35 year old Canadian who has never lived in a place where home delivery of mail was offered, I don't really understand why the home delivery people are so upset that they have to join the other 70% of us.  It's really a common sense thing, not a crushing hardship . . . and for the bulk of Canadians it never existed anyway.

[music lover]

Why be surprised old folks don't like him?  He has shown himself to be ageist and ableist and anti-urban - the Post Office home delivery issue is a killer for many older people who are managing to stay in their homes.  Look at how long it can take Ottawa to clear sidewalks in residential areas after a big snow; that means many people won't get their mail for days, they won't be able to get to the community boxes if they have to climb over snow banks. A friend of mine in her 70's who lives in Ottawa is really unhappy about this.  I feel a bit guilty because I am rural, I will still just have to walk down my driveway and get my mail from my box.  Of course being rural means I have to get that driveway cleared, but that is a price I have chosen for rural life.  Canada Post has had only one negative quarter in years, and that was mostly due to a strike, so the cost issue is a false reason.  And of course, if they can take a standard government service away from one group, what is to prevent them from taking it away from another group, or taking another service away?  Look at veterans affairs losing service centers.

Once a government is shown to be so insensitive to ordinary people's needs in one area, people start looking more critically at their other actions. 

It's not Harper's fault that your city has poor snow clearing service, nor is it his fault that Canada Post is stopping door to door mail delivery...but why let the facts get in the way??

[RetiredAt63]

@GuitarStv, musiclover - I know Guitarstv is in Toronto (the city that once called out the army for a few inches of snow), don't know where musiclover is, could be someplace with even more snow that Ottawa - Ottawa has way more snow than Toronto, so snow clearing takes a lot more time (and I don't live in Ottawa, so not my city).  It is Harper's fault that Canada Post is going for community mailboxes in areas that until now had home delivery.  Putting boxes in as a community is planned is not the same as shoehorning them in to a developed area, they can end up in weird places that are not easily accessible, or cause major snow-clearing difficulties.  Plus people moving in to a place with community mail boxes know what the situation is, it was not changed on them against their wishes.  Those of us in rural areas may be getting to keep home delivery, but a lot of small rural post offices are looking at reduced hours or closure.  What happens to farm communities during busy season, when everyone is working 12-14 hours?  Getting to a distant town to get the mail may not happen for several days.  It is a positive feedback, the same as we see with public transportation - poor service means people find alternatives so the service is used less, the service cuts back and people go to alternatives even more.  I saw it west of Montreal, where Via Rail commuter service went from three trains each way (good for commuting to downtown) to one train going in for the morning and one train going out in the evening, so most people stopped using it.  End result, more cars on the Island, more cars going downtown or crowding train parking lots on the island.

Anyway, this was all just one thought as to why Scottish's older neighbours may not like Harper, based on the reactions of some of my older friends.  I have lots of reasons to be seriously unhappy with his government that are a lot more major than mail delivery, but I have already posted about them so not going there again. 

[GuitarStv]

@GuitarStv, musiclover - I know Guitarstv is in Toronto (the city that once called out the army for a few inches of snow), don't know where musiclover is, could be someplace with even more snow that Ottawa - Ottawa has way more snow than Toronto, so snow clearing takes a lot more time (and I don't live in Ottawa, so not my city).  It is Harper's fault that Canada Post is going for community mailboxes in areas that until now had home delivery.  Putting boxes in as a community is planned is not the same as shoehorning them in to a developed area, they can end up in weird places that are not easily accessible, or cause major snow-clearing difficulties.

For the record, I lived for most of my life here:  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hornepayne,+ON+P0M,+Canada/@49.2526455,-84.784241,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x4d3fb0d28ceb2bc5:0x49990a4793b1207b!6m1!1e1,  about five hours north of Timmins.  It's where I was living sixteen years ago when the Mayor of Toronto called in the army because of the blizzard.  We got much more snow up north than the piddly amounts that Ottawa or Toronto get each year.  There was only a single communal mail drop off at the center of town.  Somehow we survived.  Even the elderly.

The practice of home delivery in Canada is quite unfair as it currently stands.  It should be available to everyone, or nobody.  If you really think that home delivery is important for the elderly, it should be available to all the elderly . . . not just the lucky 30% or so who currently get it.

There's an awful lot of stuff to be angry with Harper about.  Equalizing mail service through the country isn't one of them.

[music lover]

@GuitarStv, musiclover - I know Guitarstv is in Toronto (the city that once called out the army for a few inches of snow), don't know where musiclover is, could be someplace with even more snow that Ottawa -

I'm in Winnipeg...we know what snow is!!

Community mail boxes have been standard here in new housing developments for well over 20 years...the only change is that they are now switching older homes that now get mail delivery to community mail boxes. Other than a small percentage of people that like to complain about everything, no one really cares.

[RetiredAt63]

OK you two, enough - I was pointing out that mail delivery might be a point of issue with some older voters, and that some might see it as a specific example of a government that feels quite happy to rearrange people's services without much thought or consideration.  I did not intend to bring up a whole discussion about Postal Delivery in Canada (although that would be an interesting discussion).  Isn't it interesting reading old murder mysteries set in England, where mail sent in the morning from a small village was expected to be delivered in London the same day?  I think one of Agatha Christie's plots was based on that premise.  And yes, UK readers, I know that is no longer the case.

Re snow, some years have little, some years have a lot, and some years are crazy - think of our unfortunate fellow citizens in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick this past winter.  I can think of a few past Montreal winters which were not quite that bad, but still a LOT of snow!

And Guitarstv, as a Biologist I am angry over the gutting of the Fisheries Act, the Navigable Waters act, the closing of the Experimental lakes, the muzzling of scientists, etc. etc.  I know someone with a background in law and psych who was incredibly upset about changes to the Young Offenders Act.  This government is very good at providing reasons to be angry with them.

Anyone planning to watch tonight's debate?

[RetiredAt63]

And another!  Heard this one from a horse person.  Race horses are commonly treated with phenylbutazone, an NSAID.  It has health complications for humans, and is never given to animals whose meat will be eaten by people (http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_pheny.htm).  Well, our agricultural (federal) department supports slaughterhouses selling race horse meat to the European Community (huge moneymaker for the slaughterhouses), and the standards re phenylbutazone are incredibly lax.  The EU banned horse meat from Canada with good reason, and our federal government lobbied so hard that they lifted the ban.  Lovely.  Our race horses (and U.S. race horses, that are commonly shipped over the border for this) can potentially give children in the EU aplastic anemia.  Money rules, not ethics.

[scottish]

I had not heard that story before.    I didn't even know Europeans ate horse meat.   Phenylbutazone.  Nice stuff.  It can wreck your heart, lungs and kidneys.   Wonderful.

Horse owners should take care not to inhale the powder or ingest bute. Hands should be washed immediately after administering to prevent oral contamination since, in humans, bone marrow, renal, cardiovascular and gastrointestinal side effects are associated with use of this medication.

And you say the conservative party is promoting the export of contaminated horse meat?   Are you sure?   This seems over the top.  I found this link:  http://globalnews.ca/news/1193995/tainted-meat-banned-veterinary-drugs-found-in-horse-meat/ but it doesn't sound like large scale exports.

And there is proof that tainted meat is slipping through Canada’s regulatory net.  In 2012, two years after the EID system was introduced, European regulators announced a shipment of Canadian horse meat tested positive for Phenylbutazone and Clenbuterol.

[RetiredAt63]

The person I talked with said that
1. Canada pushed back hard against the EU ban on Canadian horse meat
2. Less than 1% of the horses (carcasses? not sure) are tested for it
3. about 30% of those tested, tested positive
4. American retired race horses get shipped here - the implication being it is easier to get around our restrictions than American restrictions.  The person selling to the slaughterhouse has to state that they have not given the horse bute - but all you need to do to get around that is be a middleman, you never gave the horse bute, but then while it was racing it definitely got bute - you are telling the truth, technically, but the horse still got treated with bute.


The person who told me this uses it on his horses - but then he doesn't plan to sell them as food quality animals.  It is like us taking Advil or Tylenol, also NSAIDs that can have nasty side effects - very commonly used.

Am I surprised it is hard to find out about? Our "we'll be transparent" government has made it harder to get information - both in restrictions and in staff cuts that mean requests get processed more slowly.

I think I have always known that horse meat was an acceptable meat in Europe, but apparently now it is an expensive meat, so lots of money to be made.  We have seen it here with lobster - from trash catch to sought-after delicacy.  In North America we probably didn't eat horses because they were much too valuable as draft and carriage animals.

[RetiredAt63]

Can we re-title this thread?  So much . . . . .

And Mulroney was mad at Trudeau and Turner?

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/the-gargoyle-harper-tories-unleash-torrent-of-patronage-appointments



Re horses and bute - google Canadian horse defense coalition

And I get equal opportunity mad - the Ontario (Liberal) government is basically letting big money interests ignore the Endangered Species act and the Migratory Birds Act, which is an international treaty.

I don't even want to know what my blood pressure is  ;-(

[swiper]

There's an awful lot of stuff to be angry with Harper about.  Equalizing mail service through the country isn't one of them.

Agreed, Cons have got to go for a lot of better reasons. Unfortunately for my TFSA :(

On the mail box thing: I'd pay CP to not put a community box on my property, or any adjoining/line-of-sight properties. Just think of the revenue potential ;)

[RetiredAt63]

Re the Cons, the more I pay attention, the more I find.   I'm not looking for it, it just presents itself to me.

For Canada Post and rural delivery, just from an environmental perspective - one vehicle delivers mail to many households, or many vehicles all head in to town to get mail.  Unless someone in the household would be going to town anyway for work, what a waste.  And the going to town for work is definitely not a given, they may work at home, or in a different town - people here commute to Ottawa and Montreal and may not be close to the Post Office in their commute.

I've seen the big mail boxes for semi-rural areas, and the really big ones are actually less horrible, since they end up having their own parking lot, which gets plowed and doesn't affect traffic.  The ones at the side of the road are bad for snow removal, blocking traffic, and accident potential.

[GuitarStv]

Are we still arguing about a service that is only available, grandfathered in for 30% of Canadians right now . . . and ignoring that the other 70% of us have been getting along just fine with the community mailboxes?

[RetiredAt63]

Seems so, the Canadian Postal Service seems to be our "divert the discussion to Niqabs, distract voters from our terrible record " topic.  ;-(

To be more on topic, snitch lines, sigh. 


Ottawa has posted a poll for the election, it will be interesting to watch.

[RetiredAt63]

Pacific Rim trade agreement - not discussing here whether it is good or bad, but a comment I heard on the radio that it is unconstitutional for a government to make that kind of commitment in the middle of an election.   Anyone heard anything more about this?  I did a fast Google and didn't find anything.

Re the Harper^TM government, they are strong on the constitution when it comes to federal and provincial spheres, but seem to play fast and loose in other areas - the PMO accumulating more power while MPs lose power, forced votes, rotten question periods, proroguing, lying about coalition governments, etc.

Thoughts?

[smilla]

Pacific Rim trade agreement - not discussing here whether it is good or bad, but a comment I heard on the radio that it is unconstitutional for a government to make that kind of commitment in the middle of an election.   Anyone heard anything more about this?  I did a fast Google and didn't find anything.

My understanding is that the Canadian government is allowed to continue with bi/multi-lateral time-sensitive negotiations and projects during an election campaign. In this case, since it still all has to go through parliament and it will take years before the TPP is finalized, it seems entirely reasonable that they completed this stage despite being in an election. The future government can decide what to do with it based in part (hopefully) on the will of Canadians once we have been made aware of the complete content of the deal.

[RetiredAt63]

@smilla - thanks for the response.  Anyone else heard (either way) from the talking heads?  I know the dairy people here are upset with it (tractor march on Ottawa), but then there are all sorts of issues with the way dairy is managed.  My personal biggest concern there is not the issue of European cheese imports, but the possibility of unlabeled imported milk from the US from BGH treated cows.  Of course this is not just federal, the province has a big say in day to day management. 

Two election sites of interest, especially because their data does show how badly "first past the post" works when there are three (4 in Quebec, yes I am counting Bloc) solid parties.

http://www.strategicvoting.ca/

https://www.votetogether.ca/

[Cathy]

Pacific Rim trade agreement - not discussing here whether it is good or bad, but a comment I heard on the radio that it is unconstitutional for a government to make that kind of commitment in the middle of an election.   Anyone heard anything more about this?

...Anyone else heard (either way) from the talking heads?...

I wouldn't know about the "talking heads", but I suspect that what they are really saying is that Harper's continued negotiations allegedly contravene a longstanding convention, which is debatable. However, such conventions do not have the force of law, and especially not the force of constitutional law. See, e.g., Re Resolution to amend the Constitution, [1981] 1 SCR 753, 784 ("The leap from convention to law is explained [by some writers] almost as if there was a common law of constitutional law, but originating in political practice. That is simply not so. What is desirable as a political limitation does not translate into a legal limitation, without expression in imperative constitutional text or statute.") (emphasis added). Commentators, and even judges, frequently refer to longstanding conventions as "constitutional conventions", but such conventions do not have the force of law, despite the usage of the term. See also Privy Council Office, Guidelines on the Conduct of Ministers, Ministers of State, Exempt Staff and Public Servants During an Election (CA PCO August 2015) (claiming that "constitutionally a government retains full legal authority to govern during an election").

Of course, we -- and the "talking heads" -- can still debate whether Harper has strayed from convention. That may even be an important debate, to the extent that it is relevant to the political (not legal) legitimacy of the government. I express no view on that.

[RetiredAt63]

@Cathy

Thank you. It is good to see the differentiation between what is law and what is convention.  Of course society runs on both law and convention, but it is good to know what behaviour is which.  I am not sure I would want to be a trade negotiator during an election campaign, since a new government could refuse to ratify all my hard work!  On the political side, we have seen governments oppose things while in opposition and then ratify them, for various reasons, once elected (NAFTA comes to mind).  Other governments have cancelled arrangements that were done before their time (fighter planes). So there are precedents both ways.

[Cathy]

...since it still all has to go through parliament...

...I am not sure I would want to be a trade negotiator during an election campaign, since a new government could refuse to ratify all my hard work...

In Canada, the ratification of treaties is solely within the power of "[the] Governor General, with the advice of [the] Privy Council for Canada or of any members thereof or individually, as the case requires". Letters Patent Constituting the Office of Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada (reprinted in the Canada Gazette, Part II, volume 81, number 12 (October 1, 1947)), § 2 (relating to the "powers and authorities" of the Governor General). Thus, "[t]he ratification process is ... wholly controlled by the executive ... The [legislature] has the power to debate the treaty and to pass a motion recommending action, including ratification; however, such a vote has no legal force. Passing treaties through the House of Commons remains a courtesy on the part of the executive, which retains full authority to decide whether to ratify the treaty after the parliamentary review". Laura Barnett, Canada’s Approach to the Treaty-Making Process (Library of Parliament 2012), § 3.3.1 (emphasis added). In theory, Harper could ratify a proposed treaty during the election.

However, the counterbalance to this awesome power is that, in Canada, treaties do not have the force of law. Harper can ratify whatever he wants, but it won't effect any changes in the law until a legislature passes a statute containing the proposed legal changes.

[RetiredAt63]

@Cathy

Wow, just wow.  What really happens and has effect, and what we think is happening, can be so at odds with each other.

So to get even more off topic, do you know off the top of your head what happened with Kyoto?  Did we ratify it and not pass matching legislation, that Harper could opt us out?  Or did we pass legislation, and then pass more legislation opting us out?  I am realizing that either the news stories are not being written as accurately as they should be, or I am not paying attention to details as much as I should be, or both.

[smilla]

Thanks Cathy, for the clarification.

Here is more:  http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/08/canadian-government-amends-caretaker-rules-to-give-itself-power-to-continue-negotiating-tpp/

Apparently while there is a convention for allowing the caretaker government to continue certain work during an election campaign, the Conservatives changed the "Guidelines" document to make it seem especially clear that continuing the TPP negotiations was allowed and (it was) even almost compelled (required of them).

Edited to add clarity, I hope.

[RetiredAt63]

Interesting, thanks Smilla. 

All sorts of implications in that article - our trade partners must know that the agreements could be changed/not approved, and the government rewrote the rules to suit themselves.  Care-taking does not normally imply major activities.  If I am care-taking a building, I do not arrange for major renovations.

Thanks Cathy, for the clarification.

Here is more:  http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/08/canadian-government-amends-caretaker-rules-to-give-itself-power-to-continue-negotiating-tpp/

Apparently while there is a convention for allowing the caretaker government to continue certain work during an election campaign, the Conservatives changed the "Guidelines" document to make it seem especially clear that continuing the TPP negotiations was allowed and (it was) even almost compelled (required of them).

Edited to add clarity, I hope.

[smilla]

True, but although I am uncomfortable with free-trade in general and largely opposed to the TPP in specific, I kind of see this move of the Conservatives as signing a place-holder agreement. Clearly if they win, this goes through, although they have promised that it will be voted on in parliament. If they don't win, the next government, minority or not, doesn't have to start at square one to be a part of the game (if in fact Canadians want to play at all).

IIUC, all of the participants still have to get this deal approved by their home governments once the actual legal agreement is written up, so the others likely think our election is only one potential hiccup among many.

[RetiredAt63]

When it's not one thing, it's another.  So here are one thing and another:

If you have to use a church hall for a polling station, it is not great but survivable.  But this . . . .
http://www.harvestoakville.ca/serve-at-the-election-polling-station/

And this

http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/acdi-cida/contributions.nsf/Eng/33D228F6B286373D85257D420061CEB2#tphp

[scottish]

I'm not sure that's as bad as it sounds.   The National Republican Institute project is supposed to be helping to build democracy in the Ukraine, not supporting the GOP.   It does seem to be stuffed full of Republicans, though.

[RetiredAt63]

But 8 million dollars?  IF we want to spend that money on the Ukraine, why can't we do it directly?

I'm not sure that's as bad as it sounds.   The National Republican Institute project is supposed to be helping to build democracy in the Ukraine, not supporting the GOP.   It does seem to be stuffed full of Republicans, though.

[scottish]

You could make the same case for all government charitable programs.    Which isn't a bad idea in some ways.   At least when the government makes the gift it provides positive publicity for Canada.