Author Topic: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness  (Read 6620 times)

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2022, 05:02:21 PM »
So many people parrot the phrase, “college isn’t for everyone,” but I think in an ideal society… it would be. Over time as society has advanced, kids have stayed in school for longer and longer. There was a time when only the rich and privileged could pay for their kids to get a high school education. I don’t think there’s any good reason to stop the advancement of more education for all.

I fundamentally disagree.

2,000 years ago who is who say what potential Einsteins or Ramanujans spent their whole lives hoeing weeds or carrying water. That we've gotten to the point there there are better (but still far from perfect) odds that someone with those gifts will have the chance to get the education and opportunities to make the most of their talents is an unabashedly good thing.

But not everyone is a potential Ramanujan. My guess is that if we could compare how happy and fulfilled people in Germany who are at around the 50th percentile of academic ability and so typically end up going straight into skilled trades vs people around the 50th percentile of academic ability in the USA who are typically pressured to go to college, don't do well (or enjoy it), and end up dropping out, often after picking up student debt, the Germans would be happier and feel better about the course of their lives.

I could certainly be wrong in that guess. But academic ability is not everything. And creating a society where success in the classroom becomes an expectation of everyone* just doesn't seem like a recipe for happiness to me.

*In fairness we're pretty far down this road already at this point, going back to the outsourcing of manufacturing work last century and I don't think it's making us happy.

Log

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2022, 05:23:23 PM »
So many people parrot the phrase, “college isn’t for everyone,” but I think in an ideal society… it would be. Over time as society has advanced, kids have stayed in school for longer and longer. There was a time when only the rich and privileged could pay for their kids to get a high school education. I don’t think there’s any good reason to stop the advancement of more education for all.

I fundamentally disagree.

2,000 years ago who is who say what potential Einsteins or Ramanujans spent their whole lives hoeing weeds or carrying water. That we've gotten to the point there there are better (but still far from perfect) odds that someone with those gifts will have the chance to get the education and opportunities to make the most of their talents is an unabashedly good thing.

But not everyone is a potential Ramanujan. My guess is that if we could compare how happy and fulfilled people in Germany who are at around the 50th percentile of academic ability and so typically end up going straight into skilled trades vs people around the 50th percentile of academic ability in the USA who are typically pressured to go to college, don't do well (or enjoy it), and end up dropping out, often after picking up student debt, the Germans would be happier and feel better about the course of their lives.

I could certainly be wrong in that guess. But academic ability is not everything. And creating a society where success in the classroom becomes an expectation of everyone* just doesn't seem like a recipe for happiness to me.

*In fairness we're pretty far down this road already at this point, going back to the outsourcing of manufacturing work last century and I don't think it's making us happy.

If we include advanced training in non-academic fields as “more education,” then I don’t think we’re in any fundamental disagreement. In the current status quo, there’s a lot of shoddy work going on in the trades. There are important things being built (see: housing crisis) that won’t last because they’re being built as cheaply as possible, by under-trained people in under-respected fields. If the US were doing an equivalent job to Germany at honoring skilled tradespeople, and carefully training the next generation to do excellent work, that would be a boon for those people and for society as a whole.

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2022, 06:05:22 PM »
Okay in that case I agree with you, I don’t think we are in disagreement. :-D

Paul der Krake

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2022, 06:10:10 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2022, 06:16:39 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

It's your highest 35 years of earnings.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/retirebenefit1.html

If you finish your postdoc (which apparently sometimes pay in and sometimes don't?) at 35 you would have to work till 70 to get 35 years of credits, minus I guess whatever work you did in undergrad, highschool, and between programs. But you postdoc earnings were probably higher than your pre-postdoc years. At least they were for my ex-wife.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 06:18:33 PM by PDXTabs »

nereo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2022, 06:43:16 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2022, 06:47:27 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

For me, not paying into SS in grad school translated to probably an extra $125/month in take home pay. At a time I just barely earning enough to make ends meet, that was enough money to make a noticeable difference in my stress levels.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2022, 07:00:55 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

Yes, iff you hit the second bend point it might be good for you, but not other taxpayers.

nereo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2022, 07:37:11 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

For me, not paying into SS in grad school translated to probably an extra $125/month in take home pay. At a time I just barely earning enough to make ends meet, that was enough money to make a noticeable difference in my stress levels.
Ok, I can see how that could work.  I, too, was a grad student living off $18k/year for the better part of a decade.
…but it does kinda suck to see mostly zeros for your twenties and some of your thirties and realize you won’t fill even half of your 35 year till you are 50

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2022, 07:59:33 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

For me, not paying into SS in grad school translated to probably an extra $125/month in take home pay. At a time I just barely earning enough to make ends meet, that was enough money to make a noticeable difference in my stress levels.
Ok, I can see how that could work.  I, too, was a grad student living off $18k/year for the better part of a decade.
…but it does kinda suck to see mostly zeros for your twenties and some of your thirties and realize you won’t fill even half of your 35 year till you are 50

Absolutely. And if you retire early (or become disabled) not having work credits or earning history for those years can become a big drawback (or absolute disaster) respectively.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2022, 05:07:11 AM »
If President Biden wants his student loan proposal to get past Republicans, I think means testing has to be part of it.  There's already measures like 2x or 4x the Federal poverty line, which could also make the handout less regressive.

But I disagree with sweeping vocational training in the side door - I think it needs to be a greater priority.  My impression is that college is enormously expensive, while vacational training is not.  There's definitely "dirty jobs" (per TV show name) that pay better than many college degrees - and with less time spent.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2022, 04:37:04 PM »
Like it or not, the way we lend money to students, and the way we portray higher education is opaque and predatory. If you were to talk to 10 randomly selected 16/17 year old high school juniors who were interested in going to college and ask them to tell you the general principles behind how student loans work and the responsibilities incurred upon graduation, how many would be able to demonstrate a concrete understanding? I'd bet less than half.

The academic system we developed in the 1900s deals well with rapid growth, but extremely poorly with declining enrollment.

I suspect a lot of where we've gone wrong is thinking that undergraduate education can and should function as something of a free market.

But as @chemistk notes, it's a market where the buyers - 17 year old high school seniors - are legal and developmental children.  There's no amount of financial education that's going to equip them to make good choices in the face of the multimillion dollar marketing blitz colleges unleash each year.

As long as there's rapid growth and seats are somewhat scarce, colleges can take the high ground somewhat and still fill their classes. 

Competition makes the college market worse though, not better.  Institutions make worse choices and serve their students less well when they are insecure, prioritizing lazy rivers over teaching labs or full time faculty.

Over the next ten years, the market is going to get more competitive, and academics will be replaced even further with a summer camp environment as admissions turn into the Hunger Games.

The clear solution to me is using a regulated utility model for every institution that wants federal loans.  Rates have to be set and justified to a board of experts based on the costs to fulfill the institutional mission.

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2022, 04:45:29 PM »
Competition makes the college market worse though, not better.  Institutions make worse choices and serve their students less well when they are insecure, prioritizing lazy rivers over teaching labs or full time faculty.

I’ve never seen it out as compellingly and succinctly. But yes, agreed.

chemistk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2022, 07:18:26 PM »
Freakonomics recently did a multi part series on higher education and one thing that really stuck out to me is that the top institutions are incentivized to and subsequently admit to practicing the idea that education at the top tier institutions is as much about preserving their reputation as they are about actually educating students, and sometimes it's even more important to them to remaim artificially exclusive.

They have no interest in creating satellite campuses similar to state systems because it dilutes the 'brand'.

I've never seen a clearer fact that points to higher education being something to attain to improve your prospects

And that line of thinking absolutely does trickle down to the mindset that many high schoolers adopt when considering higher Ed.

You have an expectation, as a soon to be grad, that your school is going to confer a status to you that societally we have put a premium on. There are plenty of avenues for circumventing that, but you as a student as well as your parents and counselors have to be willing to accept that you might not be going to a recognized institution in exchange for a lower overall cost and a good education.

As many of us are familiar with, the question about "where did you go to school",  as well as "who did you study under" comes up far more than "what did you study" or "what did you learn" in casual conversation.

I like to think of it as someone complimenting your iphone or BMW vs. your Motorola and your Hyundai.

We on these forums and with the mindset that draws us into fiscal responsibility are able to slough that off and point out or demonstrate our competencies. But you have to recognize that teens are highly impressionable and the decision to spend more FutureDollarBucks in exchange for a top tier diploma vs. getting a practical education is a serious consideration. And compounding that, there's plenty of families with a cultural expectation that you need to have the best to be the best.

These are important life lessons and in time I'm sure many do make the prudent choice but the jumping off point for hich school Juniors shouldn't be the prestige of the degree, rather it should be the contemplation of what they want out of life and figuring out the practical means to arrive there.

Much of the time, it comes a bit late though.

Sibley

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clifp

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2022, 01:05:37 AM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

I'm fine with targeted relief of student loans.  High on the list for me is people who went to a scam university like Trump University or this one.

Also folks who incurred student loan but didn't get a degree.  For those folks $10k would typical be about 1/2 their debt, but they are still stuck working min wage jobs.

Oh and shout out the Freakecomonics colleges podcast (numbers 500-503).  I didn't listen to the first one but the rest were excellent

https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/


Gronnie

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2022, 09:02:22 AM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

Yea but this has nothing to do with the thread topic. This is nothing that Biden is doing -- it's statutory relief.

nereo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2022, 12:11:37 PM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

Yea but this has nothing to do with the thread topic. This is nothing that Biden is doing -- it's statutory relief.

How is it “nothing that Biden is doing”?  The education department is part of the executive branch led by Biden’s cabinet appointee Cardona.

Gronnie

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2022, 12:16:22 PM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

Yea but this has nothing to do with the thread topic. This is nothing that Biden is doing -- it's statutory relief.

How is it “nothing that Biden is doing”?  The education department is part of the executive branch led by Biden’s cabinet appointee Cardona.

Biden didn't make this happen -- it was exactly what happens by statute when a scam university goes out of business.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!