Author Topic: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness  (Read 5033 times)

Kris

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2022, 11:03:43 AM »
It became quite clear we were in trouble when colleges started focusing more on enhancing the campus experience instead of the knowledge to be gained in the classroom.  All this did was drive up costs and made time in the classroom even less desirable.

I remember back in the early 2000's, the college visits I went on were so focused on the recreational facilities (shiny new rec center, spacious dorms, luxury dining options) that we never set foot in any of the learning facilities. The only classrooms that were up to date at the school of my choosing were the ones that received large donations from a local philanthropist whose name happens to be on most of the nicest buildings and hospitals in the area.

Obviously, this isn't every college, but the "college experience" is so overhyped (at least it was) that it made sense for colleges to switch their marketing strategy. Unfortunately, it seems that they cut resources to the people responsible for educating the students. Don't get me wrong, college campuses should strive to be enjoyable places to dwell, but this is an example of too much focus on a single good thing that had a negative result (increased costs with negligible added benefit).

Yes, that's true. And that happened as a result of the government's defunding of higher education, which meant that universities were scrambling to attract students before the "competition" did. And that doesn't happen by improving the classroom experience. It happens with splashy new amenities. And so the campus amenities arms race began. To the detriment of budgets for academics on campus.

getsorted

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2022, 12:46:58 PM »
Put me down for epically broken that if you are a research PhD you might spend five years on your PhD and another five years on your post-doc and the entire time you aren't contributing anything to Social Security even though you are working. This is because the institutions don't want to contribute their half of FICA.

This happened to us when the ex was a grad student. He was making $24k, about half of which was paid as W-2 wages. He then applied for and earned a $24k/year grant. The university took $2k as a "processing fee" and paid the rest out as a "scholarship," which had the bonus of disqualifying us from taking the child tax care credit (because both parents must have "earned income" and scholarships aren't that, even though his actual work was the exact same work in both years.

It became quite clear we were in trouble when colleges started focusing more on enhancing the campus experience instead of the knowledge to be gained in the classroom.  All this did was drive up costs and made time in the classroom even less desirable.


This is true, but is small potatoes compared to the massive increase in the number of administrators and overseeing departments, plus university president pay is now very much like CEO pay in terms of the difference in scale between them and average university employees. So many provosts, vice-provosts, and their staff, so little actual educating. It's been a while since I read this, but I believe the increase in administrative roles is something like 300%?

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2022, 12:55:10 PM »
Yes, that's true. And that happened as a result of the government's defunding of higher education, which meant that universities were scrambling to attract students before the "competition" did. And that doesn't happen by improving the classroom experience. It happens with splashy new amenities. And so the campus amenities arms race began. To the detriment of budgets for academics on campus.

We've certainly seen a massive defunding of education. But another big part of the scramble has been driven by demographics. US college enrollment peaked around 2010, and even before that it was slowing down a lot from the boom years in the mid 1900s. Now we have fewer college age people in the USA each year, and between the Trump years, fights with China and then the pandemic international enrollment has declined markedly.

And it'll get worse not better. The cohort born turning the great recession, when birth rates in the USA finally moved significantly below replacement are about 14 years old right now. So we'll probably see another step-drop in enrollment around 2026 and a new round of scrambling among colleges to recruit a shrinking pool of students away from each other.

Plus even more attempts to convince even more people who aren't prepared to enroll anyway and run up debt though they never graduate.

The academic system we developed in the 1900s deals well with rapid growth, but extremely poorly with declining enrollment.

Kris

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2022, 01:00:13 PM »
Yes, that's true. And that happened as a result of the government's defunding of higher education, which meant that universities were scrambling to attract students before the "competition" did. And that doesn't happen by improving the classroom experience. It happens with splashy new amenities. And so the campus amenities arms race began. To the detriment of budgets for academics on campus.

We've certainly seen a massive defunding of education. But another big part of the scramble has been driven by demographics. US college enrollment peaked around 2010, and even before that it was slowing down a lot from the boom years in the mid 1900s. Now we have fewer college age people in the USA each year, and between the Trump years, fights with China and then the pandemic international enrollment has declined markedly.

And it'll get worse not better. The cohort born turning the great recession, when birth rates in the USA finally moved significantly below replacement are about 14 years old right now. So we'll probably see another step-drop in enrollment around 2026 and a new round of scrambling among colleges to recruit a shrinking pool of students away from each other.

Plus even more attempts to convince even more people who aren't prepared to enroll anyway and run up debt though they never graduate.

The academic system we developed in the 1900s deals well with rapid growth, but extremely poorly with declining enrollment.

Yep, that's another piece of it. It's a complex problem. And unfortunately, I think it's too complex for this polarized country to find any sort of solution.

This is why I left academia in 2016, and didn't look back.

Log

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2022, 03:32:19 PM »
https://youtu.be/wzY-b2Vj9Ug

Timely Youtube video. Important points: lots of people with student debt never finished their degree and got the corresponding privilege/career advancement. The higher the student debt one takes out, the lower the chance of defaulting on that debt, because higher debt loads usually come from graduate school, which correspondingly advances one’s career prospects even further. Rather than blaming individual kids (who are under enormous social pressure to go to college to begin with) for dropping out of school, we should perhaps direct our ire towards the politicians who don’t fund our public schools enough to prepare students for higher education. Or towards the economic conditions that force young people with lots of potential to drop out of school just because they can’t afford to stay in school.

My position on student debt forgiveness has shifted around a bit, but lately I think a small amount like 10k is a pretty effective policy. It has a disproportionate impact for the people who need it most, while not excessively handing out money to those who don’t need it at all.

And really an underlying values question here is: how much do you think society as a whole is better off for having a more educated populace? If your answer is “yes, a lot” then one-off government policies here and there that tell people that education has public support is a good thing. So many people parrot the phrase, “college isn’t for everyone,” but I think in an ideal society… it would be. Over time as society has advanced, kids have stayed in school for longer and longer. There was a time when only the rich and privileged could pay for their kids to get a high school education. I don’t think there’s any good reason to stop the advancement of more education for all.

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2022, 05:02:21 PM »
So many people parrot the phrase, “college isn’t for everyone,” but I think in an ideal society… it would be. Over time as society has advanced, kids have stayed in school for longer and longer. There was a time when only the rich and privileged could pay for their kids to get a high school education. I don’t think there’s any good reason to stop the advancement of more education for all.

I fundamentally disagree.

2,000 years ago who is who say what potential Einsteins or Ramanujans spent their whole lives hoeing weeds or carrying water. That we've gotten to the point there there are better (but still far from perfect) odds that someone with those gifts will have the chance to get the education and opportunities to make the most of their talents is an unabashedly good thing.

But not everyone is a potential Ramanujan. My guess is that if we could compare how happy and fulfilled people in Germany who are at around the 50th percentile of academic ability and so typically end up going straight into skilled trades vs people around the 50th percentile of academic ability in the USA who are typically pressured to go to college, don't do well (or enjoy it), and end up dropping out, often after picking up student debt, the Germans would be happier and feel better about the course of their lives.

I could certainly be wrong in that guess. But academic ability is not everything. And creating a society where success in the classroom becomes an expectation of everyone* just doesn't seem like a recipe for happiness to me.

*In fairness we're pretty far down this road already at this point, going back to the outsourcing of manufacturing work last century and I don't think it's making us happy.

Log

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2022, 05:23:23 PM »
So many people parrot the phrase, “college isn’t for everyone,” but I think in an ideal society… it would be. Over time as society has advanced, kids have stayed in school for longer and longer. There was a time when only the rich and privileged could pay for their kids to get a high school education. I don’t think there’s any good reason to stop the advancement of more education for all.

I fundamentally disagree.

2,000 years ago who is who say what potential Einsteins or Ramanujans spent their whole lives hoeing weeds or carrying water. That we've gotten to the point there there are better (but still far from perfect) odds that someone with those gifts will have the chance to get the education and opportunities to make the most of their talents is an unabashedly good thing.

But not everyone is a potential Ramanujan. My guess is that if we could compare how happy and fulfilled people in Germany who are at around the 50th percentile of academic ability and so typically end up going straight into skilled trades vs people around the 50th percentile of academic ability in the USA who are typically pressured to go to college, don't do well (or enjoy it), and end up dropping out, often after picking up student debt, the Germans would be happier and feel better about the course of their lives.

I could certainly be wrong in that guess. But academic ability is not everything. And creating a society where success in the classroom becomes an expectation of everyone* just doesn't seem like a recipe for happiness to me.

*In fairness we're pretty far down this road already at this point, going back to the outsourcing of manufacturing work last century and I don't think it's making us happy.

If we include advanced training in non-academic fields as “more education,” then I don’t think we’re in any fundamental disagreement. In the current status quo, there’s a lot of shoddy work going on in the trades. There are important things being built (see: housing crisis) that won’t last because they’re being built as cheaply as possible, by under-trained people in under-respected fields. If the US were doing an equivalent job to Germany at honoring skilled tradespeople, and carefully training the next generation to do excellent work, that would be a boon for those people and for society as a whole.

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2022, 06:05:22 PM »
Okay in that case I agree with you, I don’t think we are in disagreement. :-D

Paul der Krake

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2022, 06:10:10 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2022, 06:16:39 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

It's your highest 35 years of earnings.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/retirebenefit1.html

If you finish your postdoc (which apparently sometimes pay in and sometimes don't?) at 35 you would have to work till 70 to get 35 years of credits, minus I guess whatever work you did in undergrad, highschool, and between programs. But you postdoc earnings were probably higher than your pre-postdoc years. At least they were for my ex-wife.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 06:18:33 PM by PDXTabs »

nereo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2022, 06:43:16 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2022, 06:47:27 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

For me, not paying into SS in grad school translated to probably an extra $125/month in take home pay. At a time I just barely earning enough to make ends meet, that was enough money to make a noticeable difference in my stress levels.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2022, 07:00:55 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

Yes, iff you hit the second bend point it might be good for you, but not other taxpayers.

nereo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2022, 07:37:11 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

For me, not paying into SS in grad school translated to probably an extra $125/month in take home pay. At a time I just barely earning enough to make ends meet, that was enough money to make a noticeable difference in my stress levels.
Ok, I can see how that could work.  I, too, was a grad student living off $18k/year for the better part of a decade.
…but it does kinda suck to see mostly zeros for your twenties and some of your thirties and realize you won’t fill even half of your 35 year till you are 50

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2022, 07:59:33 PM »
Not paying into FICA during 10 years of low-earning years sounds like a win to me. It's the 30 highest years that count.

How could it be a ‘win’?
It might not be that big a deal if you work another 3+ decades with most of them high-earning, but it’s a bunch of zeros (or near zeros).

If your lifetime earnings are enough to get you past the second bend point, I could see the argument that it is more valuable to have the extra money in your paycheck during grad school.

For me, not paying into SS in grad school translated to probably an extra $125/month in take home pay. At a time I just barely earning enough to make ends meet, that was enough money to make a noticeable difference in my stress levels.
Ok, I can see how that could work.  I, too, was a grad student living off $18k/year for the better part of a decade.
…but it does kinda suck to see mostly zeros for your twenties and some of your thirties and realize you won’t fill even half of your 35 year till you are 50

Absolutely. And if you retire early (or become disabled) not having work credits or earning history for those years can become a big drawback (or absolute disaster) respectively.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2022, 05:07:11 AM »
If President Biden wants his student loan proposal to get past Republicans, I think means testing has to be part of it.  There's already measures like 2x or 4x the Federal poverty line, which could also make the handout less regressive.

But I disagree with sweeping vocational training in the side door - I think it needs to be a greater priority.  My impression is that college is enormously expensive, while vacational training is not.  There's definitely "dirty jobs" (per TV show name) that pay better than many college degrees - and with less time spent.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2022, 04:37:04 PM »
Like it or not, the way we lend money to students, and the way we portray higher education is opaque and predatory. If you were to talk to 10 randomly selected 16/17 year old high school juniors who were interested in going to college and ask them to tell you the general principles behind how student loans work and the responsibilities incurred upon graduation, how many would be able to demonstrate a concrete understanding? I'd bet less than half.

The academic system we developed in the 1900s deals well with rapid growth, but extremely poorly with declining enrollment.

I suspect a lot of where we've gone wrong is thinking that undergraduate education can and should function as something of a free market.

But as @chemistk notes, it's a market where the buyers - 17 year old high school seniors - are legal and developmental children.  There's no amount of financial education that's going to equip them to make good choices in the face of the multimillion dollar marketing blitz colleges unleash each year.

As long as there's rapid growth and seats are somewhat scarce, colleges can take the high ground somewhat and still fill their classes. 

Competition makes the college market worse though, not better.  Institutions make worse choices and serve their students less well when they are insecure, prioritizing lazy rivers over teaching labs or full time faculty.

Over the next ten years, the market is going to get more competitive, and academics will be replaced even further with a summer camp environment as admissions turn into the Hunger Games.

The clear solution to me is using a regulated utility model for every institution that wants federal loans.  Rates have to be set and justified to a board of experts based on the costs to fulfill the institutional mission.

maizefolk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2022, 04:45:29 PM »
Competition makes the college market worse though, not better.  Institutions make worse choices and serve their students less well when they are insecure, prioritizing lazy rivers over teaching labs or full time faculty.

I’ve never seen it out as compellingly and succinctly. But yes, agreed.

chemistk

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2022, 07:18:26 PM »
Freakonomics recently did a multi part series on higher education and one thing that really stuck out to me is that the top institutions are incentivized to and subsequently admit to practicing the idea that education at the top tier institutions is as much about preserving their reputation as they are about actually educating students, and sometimes it's even more important to them to remaim artificially exclusive.

They have no interest in creating satellite campuses similar to state systems because it dilutes the 'brand'.

I've never seen a clearer fact that points to higher education being something to attain to improve your prospects

And that line of thinking absolutely does trickle down to the mindset that many high schoolers adopt when considering higher Ed.

You have an expectation, as a soon to be grad, that your school is going to confer a status to you that societally we have put a premium on. There are plenty of avenues for circumventing that, but you as a student as well as your parents and counselors have to be willing to accept that you might not be going to a recognized institution in exchange for a lower overall cost and a good education.

As many of us are familiar with, the question about "where did you go to school",  as well as "who did you study under" comes up far more than "what did you study" or "what did you learn" in casual conversation.

I like to think of it as someone complimenting your iphone or BMW vs. your Motorola and your Hyundai.

We on these forums and with the mindset that draws us into fiscal responsibility are able to slough that off and point out or demonstrate our competencies. But you have to recognize that teens are highly impressionable and the decision to spend more FutureDollarBucks in exchange for a top tier diploma vs. getting a practical education is a serious consideration. And compounding that, there's plenty of families with a cultural expectation that you need to have the best to be the best.

These are important life lessons and in time I'm sure many do make the prudent choice but the jumping off point for hich school Juniors shouldn't be the prestige of the degree, rather it should be the contemplation of what they want out of life and figuring out the practical means to arrive there.

Much of the time, it comes a bit late though.

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clifp

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2022, 01:05:37 AM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

I'm fine with targeted relief of student loans.  High on the list for me is people who went to a scam university like Trump University or this one.

Also folks who incurred student loan but didn't get a degree.  For those folks $10k would typical be about 1/2 their debt, but they are still stuck working min wage jobs.

Oh and shout out the Freakecomonics colleges podcast (numbers 500-503).  I didn't listen to the first one but the rest were excellent

https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/


Gronnie

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2022, 09:02:22 AM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

Yea but this has nothing to do with the thread topic. This is nothing that Biden is doing -- it's statutory relief.

nereo

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2022, 12:11:37 PM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

Yea but this has nothing to do with the thread topic. This is nothing that Biden is doing -- it's statutory relief.

How is it “nothing that Biden is doing”?  The education department is part of the executive branch led by Biden’s cabinet appointee Cardona.

Gronnie

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Re: Biden’s $10k student loan forgiveness
« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2022, 12:16:22 PM »
Well, love it or hate it, but some student loan debt is being cancelled, this batch for schools that closed while students attended or schools that misled the student.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/06/23/education-department-cancels-6-billion-of-student-loans-for-200000-borrowers/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie&fbclid=IwAR2Q4Kgg066DtofCOZ8It6d__CL4EzZgQppNjfISYFR4AgCdTsHPyA5Vs-g&sh=4d432e992637

Yea but this has nothing to do with the thread topic. This is nothing that Biden is doing -- it's statutory relief.

How is it “nothing that Biden is doing”?  The education department is part of the executive branch led by Biden’s cabinet appointee Cardona.

Biden didn't make this happen -- it was exactly what happens by statute when a scam university goes out of business.