Author Topic: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )  (Read 142010 times)

FIPurpose

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1700 on: June 20, 2022, 08:55:24 AM »
Socialists are so disappointed with Biden, you'd almost wonder if the man he defeated in November 2020 would be more to their liking?

LOL... nope. You're comparing our current milquetoast President who does relatively nothing but maintain the current bureaucracy vs. a kleptocrat that doesn't mind destroying important institutions and the environment to enrich his friends but will throw poor people a few pennies to keep them satisfied.

I'll choose milquetoast the rest of my life.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1701 on: June 20, 2022, 10:01:23 AM »
Socialists are so disappointed with Biden, you'd almost wonder if the man he defeated in November 2020 would be more to their liking?

LOL... nope. You're comparing our current milquetoast President who does relatively nothing but maintain the current bureaucracy vs. a kleptocrat that doesn't mind destroying important institutions and the environment to enrich his friends but will throw poor people a few pennies to keep them satisfied.

I'll choose milquetoast the rest of my life.
It's also worth pointing out that it has been a Republican project since 1981 to hollow out the administrative powers and personnel of the US government and to politicise what's left into its own image.  There just isn't the capability left to have a decently functioning administration - see eg. the CDC, the FDA, the Post Office, th Bureau of Competition, etc. etc. etc.

talltexan

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1702 on: June 20, 2022, 10:42:58 AM »
Don't worry, I've been active on the "Trump outrage of the day" thread, too, believe me.


PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1703 on: June 20, 2022, 05:58:13 PM »
Moments like this don't help when you're wanting market forces to simply swing your way:

https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1537214216989552641

Energy Secretary basically says in the same sentence "We want more refinery capacity now, but we also want to shut it back down as soon as we're past this."

Love oil companies or hate them, who in their right business mind would invest a dime into that?

This position is an embarrassment for the party. whY won'T You InVenTS mILliOns OF dOllArS Of CAPEx tHAT WIll NevER sEE a PROfit?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1704 on: June 21, 2022, 08:57:13 AM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.
Republicans would rightly ridicule President Biden for threatening to nationalize oil companies.  They would visit big Democratic donors who have stock market wealth, and point out that capitalism no longer applies under a Biden Administration.  They'd get a huge fundraising boost from President Biden's lapse in judgement.

If President Biden threatens to steal the entire oil sector - rob the companies of all their assets... what prevents those companies from shutting down and moving overseas?  If they stay, they lose the whole company anyways.  Company leadership receives most of their pay in stock options, which Biden would be threatening to make as worthless as the stock.  So the most vital equipment and people, in my view, would leave the U.S. ... and what is leftover couldn't be run well by random people from the government.

bacchi

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1705 on: June 21, 2022, 09:22:37 AM »
If President Biden threatens to steal the entire oil sector - rob the companies of all their assets... what prevents those companies from shutting down and moving overseas?  If they stay, they lose the whole company anyways.  Company leadership receives most of their pay in stock options, which Biden would be threatening to make as worthless as the stock.  So the most vital equipment and people, in my view, would leave the U.S. ... and what is leftover couldn't be run well by random people from the government.

Eh, there's a reason why the US refines crude for Mexico and Canada (and Singapore and France and...) -- it has the most refining capacity in the world. If it was that easy to just pick up and leave, Big Oil would've done it already.

All Big Oil has to do is file a lawsuit and wait until the Presidency changes.

This, incidentally, works the same way for drilling in ANWR. No oil company is going to put in the expense to set up drilling when permission could be rescinded in a few years.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1706 on: June 21, 2022, 10:36:10 AM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.
Republicans would rightly ridicule President Biden for threatening to nationalize oil companies.  They would visit big Democratic donors who have stock market wealth, and point out that capitalism no longer applies under a Biden Administration.  They'd get a huge fundraising boost from President Biden's lapse in judgement.

If President Biden threatens to steal the entire oil sector - rob the companies of all their assets... what prevents those companies from shutting down and moving overseas?  If they stay, they lose the whole company anyways.  Company leadership receives most of their pay in stock options, which Biden would be threatening to make as worthless as the stock.  So the most vital equipment and people, in my view, would leave the U.S. ... and what is leftover couldn't be run well by random people from the government.

I think you got somethign wrong here.
The companies don't own anything. The owners of the company might.
And nationalizing does not make that go away. Specifically nothing is robbed from the company. Every oil terminal, every pump is still there - as are the workers.
Stock holders might make a long face, but apart from that (and more money to run since you don't have to pay dividends) nothing changes.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1707 on: June 21, 2022, 12:01:16 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.
Republicans would rightly ridicule President Biden for threatening to nationalize oil companies.  They would visit big Democratic donors who have stock market wealth, and point out that capitalism no longer applies under a Biden Administration.  They'd get a huge fundraising boost from President Biden's lapse in judgement.

If President Biden threatens to steal the entire oil sector - rob the companies of all their assets... what prevents those companies from shutting down and moving overseas?  If they stay, they lose the whole company anyways.  Company leadership receives most of their pay in stock options, which Biden would be threatening to make as worthless as the stock.  So the most vital equipment and people, in my view, would leave the U.S. ... and what is leftover couldn't be run well by random people from the government.

I think you got somethign wrong here.
The companies don't own anything. The owners of the company might.
And nationalizing does not make that go away. Specifically nothing is robbed from the company. Every oil terminal, every pump is still there - as are the workers.
Stock holders might make a long face, but apart from that (and more money to run since you don't have to pay dividends) nothing changes.

I think that you got something wrong here: if I was an oil company exec that thought nationalization was coming I'd transfer all of the assets that weren't physically in the USA (ships, drilling rigs, etc) into a corporate entity that wasn't based in the USA (perhaps Panama). So yea, you can take all the stuff sitting on US soil or in territorial waters. That doesn't mean that you can seize all the assets of a US oil company like ExxonMobil.

talltexan

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1708 on: June 21, 2022, 01:36:30 PM »
On what basis do you think Exxon's oil tankers are chartered in US today?

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1709 on: June 21, 2022, 05:31:34 PM »
On what basis do you think Exxon's oil tankers are chartered in US today?

Exactly. I'd bet you one share of RKLB that they aren't.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1710 on: June 21, 2022, 06:25:58 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.
Republicans would rightly ridicule President Biden for threatening to nationalize oil companies.  They would visit big Democratic donors who have stock market wealth, and point out that capitalism no longer applies under a Biden Administration.  They'd get a huge fundraising boost from President Biden's lapse in judgement.

If President Biden threatens to steal the entire oil sector - rob the companies of all their assets... what prevents those companies from shutting down and moving overseas?  If they stay, they lose the whole company anyways.  Company leadership receives most of their pay in stock options, which Biden would be threatening to make as worthless as the stock.  So the most vital equipment and people, in my view, would leave the U.S. ... and what is leftover couldn't be run well by random people from the government.

I think you got somethign wrong here.
The companies don't own anything. The owners of the company might.
And nationalizing does not make that go away. Specifically nothing is robbed from the company. Every oil terminal, every pump is still there - as are the workers.
Stock holders might make a long face, but apart from that (and more money to run since you don't have to pay dividends) nothing changes.

Rule of law, property rights, due process, etc. Who needs any of that garbage when you can just rule by fiat?



For all the problems of the US, I'm glad we have a constitution that at least tries to protect some of those basic rights.

"....nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1711 on: June 21, 2022, 06:54:39 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.
Republicans would rightly ridicule President Biden for threatening to nationalize oil companies.  They would visit big Democratic donors who have stock market wealth, and point out that capitalism no longer applies under a Biden Administration.  They'd get a huge fundraising boost from President Biden's lapse in judgement.

If President Biden threatens to steal the entire oil sector - rob the companies of all their assets... what prevents those companies from shutting down and moving overseas?  If they stay, they lose the whole company anyways.  Company leadership receives most of their pay in stock options, which Biden would be threatening to make as worthless as the stock.  So the most vital equipment and people, in my view, would leave the U.S. ... and what is leftover couldn't be run well by random people from the government.

I think you got somethign wrong here.
The companies don't own anything. The owners of the company might.
And nationalizing does not make that go away. Specifically nothing is robbed from the company. Every oil terminal, every pump is still there - as are the workers.
Stock holders might make a long face, but apart from that (and more money to run since you don't have to pay dividends) nothing changes.

Rule of law, property rights, due process, etc. Who needs any of that garbage when you can just rule by fiat?



For all the problems of the US, I'm glad we have a constitution that at least tries to protect some of those basic rights.

"....nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Glad it wasn't just me that was troubled by that."might make a long face".... quite the expression for what is being described.

Abe

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1712 on: June 21, 2022, 08:03:24 PM »
Between the far-right’s tenuous grip on democratic concepts and these proposals from the far left, this’ll be a classic case of winning a battle by losing the war. To defeat Russia…we must become Russia?

former player

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1713 on: June 22, 2022, 05:04:49 AM »
Between the far-right’s tenuous grip on democratic concepts and these proposals from the far left, this’ll be a classic case of winning a battle by losing the war. To defeat Russia…we must become Russia?
I don't think I would count one post from one person on this forum suggesting nationalisation as equivalent to the past and continuing efforts of elected Republican Party officials to overturn the USA Constitution.

talltexan

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1714 on: June 22, 2022, 07:32:27 AM »
On what basis do you think Exxon's oil tankers are chartered in US today?

Exactly. I'd bet you one share of RKLB that they aren't.

The discussion-thread Crossover we've all been waiting for!

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1715 on: June 22, 2022, 11:59:40 AM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.
Republicans would rightly ridicule President Biden for threatening to nationalize oil companies.  They would visit big Democratic donors who have stock market wealth, and point out that capitalism no longer applies under a Biden Administration.  They'd get a huge fundraising boost from President Biden's lapse in judgement.

If President Biden threatens to steal the entire oil sector - rob the companies of all their assets... what prevents those companies from shutting down and moving overseas?  If they stay, they lose the whole company anyways.  Company leadership receives most of their pay in stock options, which Biden would be threatening to make as worthless as the stock.  So the most vital equipment and people, in my view, would leave the U.S. ... and what is leftover couldn't be run well by random people from the government.
I think you got somethign wrong here.
The companies don't own anything. The owners of the company might.
And nationalizing does not make that go away. Specifically nothing is robbed from the company. Every oil terminal, every pump is still there - as are the workers.
Stock holders might make a long face, but apart from that (and more money to run since you don't have to pay dividends) nothing changes.
You claim "companies don't own anything", yet every quarterly report states a company's "assets and liabilities".  Are you claiming every quarterly report filed in the United States is materially false?

A statement like "stock holders might make a long face" hints that I might not be the one who is wrong, here.  As Michael in ABQ points out, the 5th amendment ends with: "... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

According to a quick Google search, the CEO of Exxon makes:
Salary   $1,615,000
Value of Stock Awards   $8,434,725

So 84% of their salary comes from stock / stock options.  If the U.S. government were to nationalize Exxon's U.S. assets, the stock would become worthless.  Then 84% of the CEO's pay would become worthless, and the CEO would take an 84% pay cut.  That CEO is going to quit and find another job at their original, 6x higher salary.

I think it's also worth pointing out the extreme bias people have after 1 year of oil company profits - look at the S&P 500 against the energy sector over the past 10 years.
S&P 500, 12.65%/year https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SPY/performance?p=SPY
oil sector, 5.37%/year https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/XLE/performance?p=XLE

An oil sector that struggled in 2020 and underperformed the S&P 500 for a decade is being singled out for one good year.  How are they supposed to make up for the other 9?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1716 on: June 22, 2022, 12:33:14 PM »
Remember when President Biden criticized the murder of U.S. green card holder and journalist Jamal Khashoggi?  Take a guess what Biden did about high gasoline prices:
(1) met with American oil executives
(2) met with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman after calling him out for murder

Biden picked (2).  Before either of those, he criticized American oil companies, saying Exxon made more money than god.  Is that an energy policy?  Because I just checked, and Amazon and Apple profits left Exxon in the dust.

But the reason I bring this up now is that President Biden has finally decided to meet with American oil executives... after how many months of high gas prices?
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chevron-ceo-calls-white-house-stop-criticizing-oil-industry-2022-06-21/

The President can't control inflation - I don't hold them to account for that.  But I do expect the President to mitigate inflation and its impacts.  First he blamed Putin for inflation, and then he blamed oil companies - but Biden didn't take significant action himself.  That's why I blame him - he should have already had this week's meeting months ago.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1717 on: June 22, 2022, 01:25:22 PM »
That CEO is going to quit and find another job at their original, 6x higher salary.

Really?

Do the skills that a CEOs of a major company has translate all that well to completely different companies in different fields?  My suspicion is that they're not particularly employable outside of the area they're working.

And I've also wondered if their value to the company is worth anywhere near what they're compensated for . . . betcha that the hungry bargain basement CEO willing to work for a paltry two million dollars a year wouldn't do appreciably worse than the 10 million a year one.

JLee

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1718 on: June 22, 2022, 01:29:59 PM »
That CEO is going to quit and find another job at their original, 6x higher salary.

Really?

Do the skills that a CEOs of a major company has translate all that well to completely different companies in different fields?  My suspicion is that they're not particularly employable outside of the area they're working.

And I've also wondered if their value to the company is worth anywhere near what they're compensated for . . . betcha that the hungry bargain basement CEO willing to work for a paltry two million dollars a year wouldn't do appreciably worse than the 10 million a year one.

A few seconds of looking turns this up:

https://trainingmag.com/why-do-ceos-with-cross-industry-experience-succeed/

Quote
Let’s take a look at a few CEOs with cross-industry experience and examine how they succeeded in other industries without any experience. For example, Alan Mulally worked in the airline industry (Boeing) but also proved himself as a successful CEO in the automobile industry (Ford). Similarly, Daniel Akerson, grew up in the technology and telecommunications industry but had much success as the CEO of automotive company General Motors. Bob Wright, head of GE Capital, went on to head media company NBC. It is obvious that these CEOs’ success had nothing to do with domain skills. These iconic CEOs succeeded due to various factors, including transferable leadership.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1719 on: June 22, 2022, 01:47:41 PM »
That CEO is going to quit and find another job at their original, 6x higher salary.

Really?

Do the skills that a CEOs of a major company has translate all that well to completely different companies in different fields?  My suspicion is that they're not particularly employable outside of the area they're working.

And I've also wondered if their value to the company is worth anywhere near what they're compensated for . . . betcha that the hungry bargain basement CEO willing to work for a paltry two million dollars a year wouldn't do appreciably worse than the 10 million a year one.

A few seconds of looking turns this up:

https://trainingmag.com/why-do-ceos-with-cross-industry-experience-succeed/

Quote
Let’s take a look at a few CEOs with cross-industry experience and examine how they succeeded in other industries without any experience. For example, Alan Mulally worked in the airline industry (Boeing) but also proved himself as a successful CEO in the automobile industry (Ford). Similarly, Daniel Akerson, grew up in the technology and telecommunications industry but had much success as the CEO of automotive company General Motors. Bob Wright, head of GE Capital, went on to head media company NBC. It is obvious that these CEOs’ success had nothing to do with domain skills. These iconic CEOs succeeded due to various factors, including transferable leadership.

Fair enough.

CEO success (at least as a measure of company stock performance) certainly doesn't seem to be correlated with pay though:  https://www.marketplace.org/2016/07/25/does-ceos-pay-reflect-long-term-stock-performance/

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1720 on: June 22, 2022, 03:44:51 PM »
Of course, today Biden suggested suspending the Federal gas tax. Just a brief reminder that the last president to preside over it getting raised was Bill Clinton. Adjusting for inflation (CPI) from August 1993 it would need to double just to keep up with inflation.

Mr. Biden has also released strategic petroleum reserves and suspended a ban on summertime sales of higher-ethanol gasoline blends to try to temper price increases, frustrating climate activists still unhappy over the collapse of the president’s climate and social spending package. - NYT: Biden Pushes Congress for Three-Month Gas Tax Holiday
« Last Edit: June 22, 2022, 03:46:37 PM by PDXTabs »

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1721 on: June 22, 2022, 04:48:18 PM »
Of course, today Biden suggested suspending the Federal gas tax. Just a brief reminder that the last president to preside over it getting raised was Bill Clinton. Adjusting for inflation (CPI) from August 1993 it would need to double just to keep up with inflation.

Mr. Biden has also released strategic petroleum reserves and suspended a ban on summertime sales of higher-ethanol gasoline blends to try to temper price increases, frustrating climate activists still unhappy over the collapse of the president’s climate and social spending package. - NYT: Biden Pushes Congress for Three-Month Gas Tax Holiday
And this is where we once again learn that saving SUV-driving soccer moms $0.10/gallon on gas so maybe they vote D in November is more important than the environment, global food security, or funding road maintenance.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1722 on: June 22, 2022, 04:55:28 PM »
Of course, today Biden suggested suspending the Federal gas tax. Just a brief reminder that the last president to preside over it getting raised was Bill Clinton. Adjusting for inflation (CPI) from August 1993 it would need to double just to keep up with inflation.

Mr. Biden has also released strategic petroleum reserves and suspended a ban on summertime sales of higher-ethanol gasoline blends to try to temper price increases, frustrating climate activists still unhappy over the collapse of the president’s climate and social spending package. - NYT: Biden Pushes Congress for Three-Month Gas Tax Holiday
And this is where we once again learn that saving SUV-driving soccer moms $0.10/gallon on gas so maybe they vote D in November is more important than the environment, global food security, or funding road maintenance.

Well, I mean if I can't drive my Eddie Bauer edition Ford Explorer to get my morning coffee does it even matter if we have a planet? Because life wouldn't be worth living.

But also, for someone who is railing against oil company profits it is strange to propose a solution that might well increase oil company profits.

[G]asoline is a commodity that is priced in the market. Instead of adding up the inputs, including a profit margin, and then adding in the gas taxes, the profit margin floats up and down with the price, which is based on supply and demand... If you assume that gasoline is priced based on supply and demand, cutting gas taxes does nothing to address supply, and potentially increases demand. Thus, you could easily see gasoline prices quickly rebound back to where they are now following a gas tax cut. It’s just that the 18 cents that is currently captured by the federal government would just move elsewhere in the supply chain. It would improve the profits of the retailer, refiner, and oil producer to varying extents. - Forbes: Why A Gas Tax Holiday Probably Won’t Work

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1723 on: June 22, 2022, 05:17:02 PM »
Of course, today Biden suggested suspending the Federal gas tax. Just a brief reminder that the last president to preside over it getting raised was Bill Clinton. Adjusting for inflation (CPI) from August 1993 it would need to double just to keep up with inflation.

Mr. Biden has also released strategic petroleum reserves and suspended a ban on summertime sales of higher-ethanol gasoline blends to try to temper price increases, frustrating climate activists still unhappy over the collapse of the president’s climate and social spending package. - NYT: Biden Pushes Congress for Three-Month Gas Tax Holiday
And this is where we once again learn that saving SUV-driving soccer moms $0.10/gallon on gas so maybe they vote D in November is more important than the environment, global food security, or funding road maintenance.

Well, I mean if I can't drive my Eddie Bauer edition Ford Explorer to get my morning coffee does it even matter if we have a planet? Because life wouldn't be worth living.

But also, for someone who is railing against oil company profits it is strange to propose a solution that might well increase oil company profits.

[G]asoline is a commodity that is priced in the market. Instead of adding up the inputs, including a profit margin, and then adding in the gas taxes, the profit margin floats up and down with the price, which is based on supply and demand... If you assume that gasoline is priced based on supply and demand, cutting gas taxes does nothing to address supply, and potentially increases demand. Thus, you could easily see gasoline prices quickly rebound back to where they are now following a gas tax cut. It’s just that the 18 cents that is currently captured by the federal government would just move elsewhere in the supply chain. It would improve the profits of the retailer, refiner, and oil producer to varying extents. - Forbes: Why A Gas Tax Holiday Probably Won’t Work
Exactly, which is why I suppose maybe between all this and the release of oil from the strategic supply, it might be just $0.10/gal change in net pricing. I'm not clear on the cost of producing ethanol from corn but that might be barely break even wrt EROEI and we are converting corn into E15 exactly when a certain international conflict is taking wheat production capacity off of the global market...

This is why I take neither political party in the US seriously. These are trash people who will ruin this country and the world if given the chance.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1724 on: June 22, 2022, 07:00:15 PM »
I think that it's too harsh to say that all politicians are trash people who will ruin the country/world given the chance.  They're not stupid, and a lot of them want to do the right thing.

Politically though it is suicide to talk openly of raising gas taxes.  Politicians are pragmatists by nature.  If they see a guaranteed losing battle, they're not going to go down fighting it.  Because even if they do, there are plenty of other politicians who will take their place and just avoid it.

The system is designed to force the outcome you're seeing.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1725 on: June 22, 2022, 07:06:34 PM »
I think that it's too harsh to say that all politicians are trash people who will ruin the country/world given the chance.  They're not stupid, and a lot of them want to do the right thing.

Politically though it is suicide to talk openly of raising gas taxes.  Politicians are pragmatists by nature.  If they see a guaranteed losing battle, they're not going to go down fighting it.  Because even if they do, there are plenty of other politicians who will take their place and just avoid it.

The system is designed to force the outcome you're seeing.

So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the gas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1726 on: June 22, 2022, 07:13:00 PM »
I think that it's too harsh to say that all politicians are trash people who will ruin the country/world given the chance.  They're not stupid, and a lot of them want to do the right thing.

Politically though it is suicide to talk openly of raising gas taxes.  Politicians are pragmatists by nature.  If they see a guaranteed losing battle, they're not going to go down fighting it.  Because even if they do, there are plenty of other politicians who will take their place and just avoid it.

The system is designed to force the outcome you're seeing.
Yes, I completely agree with you and the interpretation following from that differs just by matter of taste. It is exactly that pragmatic mode that is reprehensible to me. It is the Darwinian struggle that results in lowest common denominator (in both parties) that I take exception to. These people lacking principles could be shot out of a cannon, and upon landing on some sharp spikes, would improve national welfare. I understand the competitive dynamics leading to these horrible people in effect; I am merely pointlessly railing against this dynamic with the scant hope that other people realize the toxicity in both dominant parties.

The struggle against selfish self-interest at the politician level will depend upon efforts of the rare candidate that can transcend that dynamic. I voted Kanye in 2020 because there was no way the rot in either Dem or Rep was going to get my vote. And we can do better than Kanye!

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1727 on: June 22, 2022, 11:02:51 PM »
I thought that today's The Daily was interesting. NYT: The Daily: How Biden’s Approval Rating Got So Low

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1728 on: June 23, 2022, 04:22:01 AM »
[
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light. 

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1729 on: June 23, 2022, 05:42:34 AM »
[
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light.
All true but it's gone further than just taxes to the whole idea of government, "no government" or "less government" has become the subject of discourse rather than "good government" of an appropriate size and cost - with politicians having a civilised discussion about what that means.   Republican and conservative governments everywhere have been quietly dismantling systems and mechanisms which make governments work well and then using the subsequent failures as an argument for further dismantling.  It's all leading us to a very bad place.

talltexan

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1730 on: June 23, 2022, 08:02:37 AM »
Just a reminder that George HW Bush also faced an insurgency within his own party via Pat Buchanan's primary challenge. Buchanan and Perot later joined up.

The tax increase was a problem, but so was the general opposition to NAFTA and the general trajectory of freer trade and the WTO.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1731 on: June 23, 2022, 09:25:35 AM »
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light.

Which explains why the GOP hasn't raised the gas tax in 32 years. But that doesn't explain the Democrats.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1732 on: June 23, 2022, 09:38:42 AM »
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light.

Which explains why the GOP hasn't raised the gas tax in 32 years. But that doesn't explain the Democrats.

Because democrats have held a trifecta exactly once out of the last 10 congresses (excluding this one that's barely a trifecta) and it was during the bottom of the great recession. Not exactly a good time to add a regressive tax.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1733 on: June 23, 2022, 09:43:10 AM »
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light.

Which explains why the GOP hasn't raised the gas tax in 32 years. But that doesn't explain the Democrats.

Because democrats have held a trifecta exactly once out of the last 10 congresses (excluding this one that's barely a trifecta) and it was during the bottom of the great recession. Not exactly a good time to add a regressive tax.

With Democrats like that who needs Republicans?

This reminds me of that one time that all we had to do to get the Clinton tax rates back was... nothing. Because the GWB tax cuts were passed through reconciliation and were going to expire. So we... made them permanent.

I wrote Obama a letter asking him to let them expire but he didn't even reply to my letter. Thanks Obama!

talltexan

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1734 on: June 23, 2022, 12:45:25 PM »
That extension of the tax cuts in the winter of 2011 involved Republicans being able to exert extreme pressure because of the tea party wave and very large deficits.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1735 on: June 23, 2022, 01:25:36 PM »
Well, I mean if I can't drive my Eddie Bauer edition Ford Explorer to get my morning coffee does it even matter if we have a planet? Because life wouldn't be worth living.
You can improve that one by replacing "coffee" with "double iced vente frappachino".


This reminds me of that one time that all we had to do to get the Clinton tax rates back was... nothing. Because the GWB tax cuts were passed through reconciliation and were going to expire. So we... made them permanent.

I wrote Obama a letter asking him to let them expire but he didn't even reply to my letter. Thanks Obama!
That was impressively bad negotiating, in my view.  And actually I would avoid younger Presidential candidates for the same reason - what they have in hope & change is probably offset by a lack of deviousness and hardball negotiating skill.

One surprise I got during Obama's terms came in the form of a divided Congress unifying along lines I didn't expect.  There was some legislation to either condemn or praise Edward Snowden (NSA whistleblower who revealed browser spying, among other things).  The thing was, the vote didn't break along party lines - it went strictly by seniority!  Everyone in leadership (who knew?) went to one side, and everyone newer to the other - regardless of party affiliation.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1736 on: June 23, 2022, 01:48:18 PM »
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light.

Which explains why the GOP hasn't raised the gas tax in 32 years. But that doesn't explain the Democrats.

Over that time period there's been mixed support among Ds for raising the gas tax (often exceeding 50%), and near complete opposition by the GOP.  The net result has been no increase.  Not sure how that's the fault of Dems...

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1737 on: June 23, 2022, 01:55:51 PM »
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light.

Which explains why the GOP hasn't raised the gas tax in 32 years. But that doesn't explain the Democrats.

Over that time period there's been mixed support among Ds for raising the gas tax (often exceeding 50%), and near complete opposition by the GOP.  The net result has been no increase.  Not sure how that's the fault of Dems...

Since there's only one party of grown ups, they have to get all the real work done.

The toddlers screaming about CRT, commies, stolen elections, vaccine mind control, fake global warming, secret child sex rings, and Jewish space lasers can't be held responsible!  We've accepted that they're idiots and incapable of governing.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1738 on: June 23, 2022, 03:50:38 PM »
So what changed? Because we used to be able to raise the ygas tax in this country. In fact both Bush and Clinton (and Reagan) did it.
https://www.kiplinger.com/article/spending/t063-c000-s001-a-brief-history-of-the-federal-gasoline-tax.html

I think a big part of it is the Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge. Bush (Sr) raised taxes and got hammered for it, arguably opening the door for Perot and his ultimate loss to Clinton.
It’s become such a part of the GOP identity.  In their talking points taxes paid are “your” money being “wasted” by the government which is already too big (shrink it until you can ‘drown it in the bathtub”). Then the TEA party (among its slogans “Taxed Enough Already”!) has further vilified taxes.  The more extreme libertarian wing even shouts “taxes are theft.”  The idea that one should be able to ‘opt out’ of paying certain taxes that fund things you disagree with (or simply say you disagree with) has gone from extreme to mainstream (see: charter schools, abortion clinics). It’s even spread to defunding the IRS, which ironically allows tax cheating easier and places more of the burden on those that do pay their taxes.

Starting with Reagan but getting amplified each administration we have taxes viewed in an increasingly negative light.

Which explains why the GOP hasn't raised the gas tax in 32 years. But that doesn't explain the Democrats.

Over that time period there's been mixed support among Ds for raising the gas tax (often exceeding 50%), and near complete opposition by the GOP.  The net result has been no increase.  Not sure how that's the fault of Dems...

Feel free to blame the modern GOP. I do. Run Richard Nixon and he'll have my vote.

But that doesn't absolve the Ds of responsibility when they are governing. Remember that one time when the Ds had 57 seats in the Senate plus two independents? Did they manage to push through a gas tax hike (even in the future)? Because that it totally in-bounds for reconciliation.

Remember that time that Biden ran on a platform of climate change, infrastructure, and normalcy? You know what's normal? Raising the gas tax is normal. At least it used to be when Reagan and Bush were president. But was it part of his budget bill or the infrastructure package? Did he even try? Now he wants to suspend it‽‽‽

Unless you are saying that it's true that both parties are the same in which case I can stop paying attention and donating to candidates.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 04:06:42 PM by PDXTabs »

nereo

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1739 on: June 23, 2022, 07:12:38 PM »
You’ve highlighted the fundamental problem, though.  If one party is united and universally opposed, it takes the opposite (complete agreement and working in lock-step) to overcome that in today’s senate, and that’s under the best of circumstances when you hold a sizeable majority.  All too frequently, if “only” 95% of your party is in agreement and you are facing an obstructionist minority - you are screwed. You may be “in-bounds” for reconciliation, but you are very limited to how often that can be done.
It just doesn’t compute in such cases to call both the same.

former player

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1740 on: June 23, 2022, 07:53:28 PM »
You’ve highlighted the fundamental problem, though.  If one party is united and universally opposed, it takes the opposite (complete agreement and working in lock-step) to overcome that in today’s senate, and that’s under the best of circumstances when you hold a sizeable majority.  All too frequently, if “only” 95% of your party is in agreement and you are facing an obstructionist minority - you are screwed. You may be “in-bounds” for reconciliation, but you are very limited to how often that can be done.
It just doesn’t compute in such cases to call both the same.
Democrats In Name Only?