Author Topic: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )  (Read 318066 times)

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1650 on: June 08, 2022, 12:42:48 PM »
Thats very optimistic of you, however right wing voters are not rational so there's another very real possibility where republicans don't vote for it, say it's not good enough or some other bullcrap, or even claim they did vote for it but the democrats blocked it, blame the whole pandemic on the democratics and the president, their voters eat it up, and they win more seats as a result. Trump wanted to do it so they had to go along with it, they couldnt blame the pandemic on him...
So you claim 70 million Americans are not rational.  Wouldn't it be simpler to believe someone making that claim is not rational?
70 million said that God created the Earth as a disk. One said that is wrong.
More than 5 billion people on Earth believe in a God with no rational cause to do so.  Rationality seems to be the exception, rather than the rule with humans.
Way to igore all context.  I was responding to a poster claiming that half of Americans were irrational for voting a certain way.  And yet unlike with scientific discoveries, sufficient evidence has not been offered to support the claim.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 12:45:03 PM by MustacheAndaHalf »

JLee

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1651 on: June 08, 2022, 01:47:28 PM »
Thats very optimistic of you, however right wing voters are not rational so there's another very real possibility where republicans don't vote for it, say it's not good enough or some other bullcrap, or even claim they did vote for it but the democrats blocked it, blame the whole pandemic on the democratics and the president, their voters eat it up, and they win more seats as a result. Trump wanted to do it so they had to go along with it, they couldnt blame the pandemic on him...
So you claim 70 million Americans are not rational.  Wouldn't it be simpler to believe someone making that claim is not rational?
70 million said that God created the Earth as a disk. One said that is wrong.
More than 5 billion people on Earth believe in a God with no rational cause to do so.  Rationality seems to be the exception, rather than the rule with humans.
Way to igore all context.  I was responding to a poster claiming that half of Americans were irrational for voting a certain way.  And yet unlike with scientific discoveries, sufficient evidence has not been offered to support the claim.

Somewhere there is an article that reviews how people from different political parties change what they believe to be good/bad based on which party's President was in power at the time - I can't find it now, but there was a distinct difference for many people based on which party they were providing feedback on.  Many, many people are not rational - assuming without evidence in either direction is faulty IMO. Unless, of course, you're able to provide sufficient evidence to support the position that half of Americans are rational?

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1652 on: June 08, 2022, 02:11:09 PM »
Thats very optimistic of you, however right wing voters are not rational so there's another very real possibility where republicans don't vote for it, say it's not good enough or some other bullcrap, or even claim they did vote for it but the democrats blocked it, blame the whole pandemic on the democratics and the president, their voters eat it up, and they win more seats as a result. Trump wanted to do it so they had to go along with it, they couldnt blame the pandemic on him...
So you claim 70 million Americans are not rational.  Wouldn't it be simpler to believe someone making that claim is not rational?
70 million said that God created the Earth as a disk. One said that is wrong.
More than 5 billion people on Earth believe in a God with no rational cause to do so.  Rationality seems to be the exception, rather than the rule with humans.
Way to igore all context.  I was responding to a poster claiming that half of Americans were irrational for voting a certain way.  And yet unlike with scientific discoveries, sufficient evidence has not been offered to support the claim.

Somewhere there is an article that reviews how people from different political parties change what they believe to be good/bad based on which party's President was in power at the time - I can't find it now, but there was a distinct difference for many people based on which party they were providing feedback on.  Many, many people are not rational - assuming without evidence in either direction is faulty IMO. Unless, of course, you're able to provide sufficient evidence to support the position that half of Americans are rational?

Yeah, I wasn't intending to support the poster who started the thread of conversation . . . just to point out that the assumption any human is acting in a rational manner needs to be scrutinized.  We're a peculiar breed of animal.  :P

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1653 on: June 08, 2022, 09:33:44 PM »
Thats very optimistic of you, however right wing voters are not rational so there's another very real possibility where republicans don't vote for it, say it's not good enough or some other bullcrap, or even claim they did vote for it but the democrats blocked it, blame the whole pandemic on the democratics and the president, their voters eat it up, and they win more seats as a result. Trump wanted to do it so they had to go along with it, they couldnt blame the pandemic on him...
So you claim 70 million Americans are not rational.  Wouldn't it be simpler to believe someone making that claim is not rational?
70 million said that God created the Earth as a disk. One said that is wrong.
More than 5 billion people on Earth believe in a God with no rational cause to do so.  Rationality seems to be the exception, rather than the rule with humans.
Way to igore all context.  I was responding to a poster claiming that half of Americans were irrational for voting a certain way.  And yet unlike with scientific discoveries, sufficient evidence has not been offered to support the claim.

Somewhere there is an article that reviews how people from different political parties change what they believe to be good/bad based on which party's President was in power at the time - I can't find it now, but there was a distinct difference for many people based on which party they were providing feedback on.  Many, many people are not rational - assuming without evidence in either direction is faulty IMO. Unless, of course, you're able to provide sufficient evidence to support the position that half of Americans are rational?

Yeah, I wasn't intending to support the poster who started the thread of conversation . . . just to point out that the assumption any human is acting in a rational manner needs to be scrutinized.  We're a peculiar breed of animal.  :P
I appreciate the clarification - it seems like nobody called the person out over the idea people not voting their way are irrational, which I thought would draw more attention.  My point isn't to decide the percent of irrational people in the world, but to question each tribe's assumption that people voting differently must be irrational.

former player

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1654 on: June 09, 2022, 01:47:45 AM »
We are all irrational to some extent and would probably go mad if we weren't: living in a world full of conflicts and contraditions requires us to hold logically incompatible facts and opinions in stasis rather than having our thoughts constantly turning in illogical loops.

But there are degrees of illogicality, surely?  A belief that the 2020 US Presidential election was stolen, in the teeth of a complete lack of evidence and 60 court judgements to the contrary, is way past the usual small illogicalities we all live with.  The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, and calling "both sides" in relation to those extreme and fascistic views is to some extent to buy into those views, to the harm of general discourse and even potentially the continuation of democracy.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1655 on: June 09, 2022, 07:28:55 AM »
We are all irrational to some extent and would probably go mad if we weren't: living in a world full of conflicts and contraditions requires us to hold logically incompatible facts and opinions in stasis rather than having our thoughts constantly turning in illogical loops.

But there are degrees of illogicality, surely?  A belief that the 2020 US Presidential election was stolen, in the teeth of a complete lack of evidence and 60 court judgements to the contrary, is way past the usual small illogicalities we all live with.  The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, and calling "both sides" in relation to those extreme and fascistic views is to some extent to buy into those views, to the harm of general discourse and even potentially the continuation of democracy.

I think you're right.  There are degrees.

There are billions of people who believe in magical/superpowered deities with the same total lack of supporting evidence as exists for secret pedophiles or the 'stolen' Trump election.  But the difference between belief in God and belief in Trump's election being stolen is that there's a pretty massive amount of information that directly contradicts the latter.  So it goes beyond faith in something absent contradictory evidence and embraces belief in something demonstrably false.  There's a subtle but very important difference between the two, and it makes the former much more palatable than the latter.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1656 on: June 09, 2022, 09:19:22 AM »
Somewhat related news . . . but there are right wing political organizations paid to create false websites to try to trick journalists into reporting lies as truth.  If you're not paying attention, it's easy to get riled up about things that aren't real.


Like . . . a couple days ago this story of lies was released:
https://thefederalist.com/2022/06/06/facebook-factcheckers-are-wrong-an-illinois-school-is-changing-grading-based-on-race/

It's based on this legit looking "local news" website:
https://westcooknews.com/stories/626581140-oprf-to-implement-race-based-grading-system-in-2022-23-school-year

Which turns out to be a total bullshit site and paid for by political groups who want to push the lie as a message:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/oprf-race-based-grading/
https://theparadise.ng/fact-check-oak-park-and-river-forest-high-school-in-illinois-plans-to-implement-a-race-based-grading-system-for-the-2022-23-school-year/
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-Illinois-school-race-equitable-grading-586063167875
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/03/facebook-posts/no-illinois-high-school-not-grading-students-based/



CBC did a whole radio show about the phenomenon: https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-14-day-6/clip/15916929-how-fake-story-race-based-school-testing-revealed-empire


At the moment, I'm not aware of this kind of organized and well funded network of lies on the left to push political agendas.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 09:24:27 AM by GuitarStv »

chemistk

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1657 on: June 09, 2022, 11:24:46 AM »
Somewhat related news . . . but there are right wing political organizations paid to create false websites to try to trick journalists into reporting lies as truth.  If you're not paying attention, it's easy to get riled up about things that aren't real.


Like . . . a couple days ago this story of lies was released:
https://thefederalist.com/2022/06/06/facebook-factcheckers-are-wrong-an-illinois-school-is-changing-grading-based-on-race/

It's based on this legit looking "local news" website:
https://westcooknews.com/stories/626581140-oprf-to-implement-race-based-grading-system-in-2022-23-school-year

Which turns out to be a total bullshit site and paid for by political groups who want to push the lie as a message:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/oprf-race-based-grading/
https://theparadise.ng/fact-check-oak-park-and-river-forest-high-school-in-illinois-plans-to-implement-a-race-based-grading-system-for-the-2022-23-school-year/
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-Illinois-school-race-equitable-grading-586063167875
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/03/facebook-posts/no-illinois-high-school-not-grading-students-based/



CBC did a whole radio show about the phenomenon: https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-14-day-6/clip/15916929-how-fake-story-race-based-school-testing-revealed-empire


At the moment, I'm not aware of this kind of organized and well funded network of lies on the left to push political agendas.


I, just....

This whole thing is frustrating. I'm specifically referring to the articles, too. There's so much nuance, so much misunderstanding, so many major assumptions.

Worse yet, from a particular angle I'm frustrated that yet another school district is trying yet another new idea that's going to stick around for maybe a couple years. Regardless of whether it's actually capable of doing as designed, it's going to be more havoc wrought on kids who just need consistency.

Now to the broader point, that's a hairy subject, because in a way you could look at our national focus on niche issues and interests as the left's equivalent of doing so. It's kind of exhausting right now to have to go through the same cycle of "the next issue we're making a national focus this month". And I have nothing against them, from Pride, to BLM, all the way down to national pizza day. (I HATE May 4th though).

But then it's not really the same, because those on the right who practice this tactic do so with the intent to cause people to clutch their pearls. They know how to tug at our evolutionary heartstrings and incite fear and hatred. I mean, when you read something like that, the burden of proof for determining whether it's true is on you the reader and not (at least the way it's set up right now) really on the author or publisher. As an individual, you have to critically evaluate claims and there are just so many people who are apathetic at best when it comes to trying to honestly evaluate the information they receive.

I will say this, like it or not, both political parties are cut from the same cloth and that generally means that if one side is playing dirty it stands to reason the other side is doing so in a different but equal way.

former player

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1658 on: June 09, 2022, 11:36:20 AM »

I will say this, like it or not, both political parties are cut from the same cloth and that generally means that if one side is playing dirty it stands to reason the other side is doing so in a different but equal way.
What are the Democrat equivalents to Republican's Big Lie about the election being stolen?  The Democrat equivalents to QAnon?

You are trying to equate two things which are totally different in character.  And that is misleading and dangerous.

chemistk

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1659 on: June 09, 2022, 11:55:40 AM »

I will say this, like it or not, both political parties are cut from the same cloth and that generally means that if one side is playing dirty it stands to reason the other side is doing so in a different but equal way.
What are the Democrat equivalents to Republican's Big Lie about the election being stolen?  The Democrat equivalents to QAnon?

You are trying to equate two things which are totally different in character.  And that is misleading and dangerous.

The Democratic party, and establishment Democrats (and not those who identify as individually Democrat or liberal), are influenced as much by lobbyists, special interests, and various other influential entities and organizations ad Republicans are.

I am not trying to paint an equivalency between the two on every topic. To GuitarStv's last point, I don't believe that the left is pushing a false narrative. I don't believe that there is an equivalent intention to cause a Jan. 6 from the left. I don't believe there is a left-leaning version of QAnon.

But we cannot pretend as though the Democratic establishment doesn't use the marketing toolbox that includes, among other things, emotional manipulation to achieve an end. The differences between the parties aren't inherently binary, despite every effort by so many to paint them as such. It's just a bunch of dumb meatbags on both sides with a grey mushy frontal cortex that;s easily scared and even more easily manipulated driving each of them and us.


talltexan

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1660 on: June 09, 2022, 12:08:38 PM »
So...does this all mean that Jan 6 was really a false flag operation? It was the fault of Pelosi not properly deploying security to try to make Trump look bad so she could install Biden (while Pence basically was complicit)?

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1661 on: June 09, 2022, 12:36:41 PM »
Somewhat related news . . . but there are right wing political organizations paid to create false websites to try to trick journalists into reporting lies as truth.  If you're not paying attention, it's easy to get riled up about things that aren't real.

At the moment, I'm not aware of this kind of organized and well funded network of lies on the left to push political agendas.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-the-left-had-to-steal-the-rights-dark-money-playbook-bonus-episode/

Quote
And the other is a for-profit progressive local news network called Courier Newsroom. And I really did that so I could preserve the mission, which is to build power and infrastructure for the progressive movement.

VENKATESH: Okay. I want to talk about this fascinating project, Courier Newsroom. If I understand it, it publishes digital newspapers in six key swing states. And you’ve got reporters and editors and, on the face of it, the digital sites that you’ve created look like local news. But I think the intention is that the sites are helping to promote progressive candidates in those states. And so, I’m curious to know how you think about these sites. Is it news? Is it marketing? Are they political instruments? And I wonder if this is really the face of so much of modern media.

MCGOWAN: Courier has seven newsrooms, all staffed by reputable journalists and editors, many of who lost their jobs as local news outlets have been shuttered across the country. And we have been unapologetically transparent about our progressive values and mission. The genesis for Courier Newsroom was actually that white paper about the power and influence of the right-wing media, online and off, and the lack of owned-progressive media that espouses progressive values but maintains and preserves the integrity of journalism and of fact-checking. Part of the genesis was also my frustration with the billions of dollars that are spent and largely wasted on paid advertising in election cycles.

The majority of Americans do not read newspapers. They do not watch the evening news or cable news. Their news consumption is incredibly passive. They are getting their news by scrolling their social-media news feeds or talking to their friends. And that allows misinformation to really have an impact on those Americans, because it is targeted to influence them. And we built Courier to be focused on getting stories and facts and information to voters on social-media news feeds. You know, partisan media is not new. That said, we are in a murky territory in terms of media and news. And I really prefer to live in the world as it exists, not the one that I want it to be, and fight like hell to build the power in order to build the world that I do want.

Local news continues to be where the majority of Americans say they trust their information most. And yet, we have a huge void of it in this country that is only getting worse. State government is where so many decisions that affect our lives are made. And yet, turnout for state elections is abysmal. It’s far worse than national turnout, which isn’t great in America. And there has been a lot of research to show a direct correlation between the presence of local media and civic participation. So, basically, when you don’t have local journalism or local trusted news sources, you are less likely to participate civically in your community.

Here's an example of the left-wing is trying to create a similar thing. We can quibble over what are lies, disinformation, half-truths, etc. But to pretend one side deals in pure facts while the other side deals in pure lies is absurd. Both sides lie, both sides push their own agenda through whatever means they can. MSNBC is as much a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party as Fox News is for the Republican Party. There may not be an exact equivalent of QAnon on the left but go back to pre-pandemic times and the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama. 

former player

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1662 on: June 09, 2022, 01:09:22 PM »
Somewhat related news . . . but there are right wing political organizations paid to create false websites to try to trick journalists into reporting lies as truth.  If you're not paying attention, it's easy to get riled up about things that aren't real.

At the moment, I'm not aware of this kind of organized and well funded network of lies on the left to push political agendas.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-the-left-had-to-steal-the-rights-dark-money-playbook-bonus-episode/

Quote
And the other is a for-profit progressive local news network called Courier Newsroom. And I really did that so I could preserve the mission, which is to build power and infrastructure for the progressive movement.

VENKATESH: Okay. I want to talk about this fascinating project, Courier Newsroom. If I understand it, it publishes digital newspapers in six key swing states. And you’ve got reporters and editors and, on the face of it, the digital sites that you’ve created look like local news. But I think the intention is that the sites are helping to promote progressive candidates in those states. And so, I’m curious to know how you think about these sites. Is it news? Is it marketing? Are they political instruments? And I wonder if this is really the face of so much of modern media.

MCGOWAN: Courier has seven newsrooms, all staffed by reputable journalists and editors, many of who lost their jobs as local news outlets have been shuttered across the country. And we have been unapologetically transparent about our progressive values and mission. The genesis for Courier Newsroom was actually that white paper about the power and influence of the right-wing media, online and off, and the lack of owned-progressive media that espouses progressive values but maintains and preserves the integrity of journalism and of fact-checking. Part of the genesis was also my frustration with the billions of dollars that are spent and largely wasted on paid advertising in election cycles.

The majority of Americans do not read newspapers. They do not watch the evening news or cable news. Their news consumption is incredibly passive. They are getting their news by scrolling their social-media news feeds or talking to their friends. And that allows misinformation to really have an impact on those Americans, because it is targeted to influence them. And we built Courier to be focused on getting stories and facts and information to voters on social-media news feeds. You know, partisan media is not new. That said, we are in a murky territory in terms of media and news. And I really prefer to live in the world as it exists, not the one that I want it to be, and fight like hell to build the power in order to build the world that I do want.

Local news continues to be where the majority of Americans say they trust their information most. And yet, we have a huge void of it in this country that is only getting worse. State government is where so many decisions that affect our lives are made. And yet, turnout for state elections is abysmal. It’s far worse than national turnout, which isn’t great in America. And there has been a lot of research to show a direct correlation between the presence of local media and civic participation. So, basically, when you don’t have local journalism or local trusted news sources, you are less likely to participate civically in your community.

Here's an example of the left-wing is trying to create a similar thing. We can quibble over what are lies, disinformation, half-truths, etc. But to pretend one side deals in pure facts while the other side deals in pure lies is absurd. Both sides lie, both sides push their own agenda through whatever means they can. MSNBC is as much a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party as Fox News is for the Republican Party. There may not be an exact equivalent of QAnon on the left but go back to pre-pandemic times and the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.
I don't think anyone is trying to pretend that the Democrat messaging is perfect, just as no-one (I hope) would say that Republican messaging before Trump was perfect.  The problem is that if everytime someone says "Republican messaging on the stolen election and replacement theory is batshit crazy" the response comes "Democrats aren't perfect either" then that is presenting a type of false equivalence which is extraordinarily damaging to rational political debate and which diminishes the seriousness of the damage to non-violent democratic systems which batshit crazy Republicans are doing with their batshit crazy messaging.

And if you come back after that with "But the Democrats" then you are proving that you do not understand the point I am making and do not understand the dangers to democracy that this fascistic messaging is doing.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1663 on: June 09, 2022, 01:13:23 PM »
Somewhat related news . . . but there are right wing political organizations paid to create false websites to try to trick journalists into reporting lies as truth.  If you're not paying attention, it's easy to get riled up about things that aren't real.

At the moment, I'm not aware of this kind of organized and well funded network of lies on the left to push political agendas.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-the-left-had-to-steal-the-rights-dark-money-playbook-bonus-episode/

Quote
And the other is a for-profit progressive local news network called Courier Newsroom. And I really did that so I could preserve the mission, which is to build power and infrastructure for the progressive movement.

VENKATESH: Okay. I want to talk about this fascinating project, Courier Newsroom. If I understand it, it publishes digital newspapers in six key swing states. And you’ve got reporters and editors and, on the face of it, the digital sites that you’ve created look like local news. But I think the intention is that the sites are helping to promote progressive candidates in those states. And so, I’m curious to know how you think about these sites. Is it news? Is it marketing? Are they political instruments? And I wonder if this is really the face of so much of modern media.

MCGOWAN: Courier has seven newsrooms, all staffed by reputable journalists and editors, many of who lost their jobs as local news outlets have been shuttered across the country. And we have been unapologetically transparent about our progressive values and mission. The genesis for Courier Newsroom was actually that white paper about the power and influence of the right-wing media, online and off, and the lack of owned-progressive media that espouses progressive values but maintains and preserves the integrity of journalism and of fact-checking. Part of the genesis was also my frustration with the billions of dollars that are spent and largely wasted on paid advertising in election cycles.

The majority of Americans do not read newspapers. They do not watch the evening news or cable news. Their news consumption is incredibly passive. They are getting their news by scrolling their social-media news feeds or talking to their friends. And that allows misinformation to really have an impact on those Americans, because it is targeted to influence them. And we built Courier to be focused on getting stories and facts and information to voters on social-media news feeds. You know, partisan media is not new. That said, we are in a murky territory in terms of media and news. And I really prefer to live in the world as it exists, not the one that I want it to be, and fight like hell to build the power in order to build the world that I do want.

Local news continues to be where the majority of Americans say they trust their information most. And yet, we have a huge void of it in this country that is only getting worse. State government is where so many decisions that affect our lives are made. And yet, turnout for state elections is abysmal. It’s far worse than national turnout, which isn’t great in America. And there has been a lot of research to show a direct correlation between the presence of local media and civic participation. So, basically, when you don’t have local journalism or local trusted news sources, you are less likely to participate civically in your community.

Here's an example of the left-wing is trying to create a similar thing. We can quibble over what are lies, disinformation, half-truths, etc. But to pretend one side deals in pure facts while the other side deals in pure lies is absurd. Both sides lie, both sides push their own agenda through whatever means they can.

I'm not overly familiar with Courier Newsroom.  From the excerpt above, it sounds like they have the goal of providing true information to people, but from a left wing perspective.  You're comparing this to the right wing funded fake website that was built to spread political lies.  Which lies has Courier Newsroom spread?



MSNBC is as much a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party as Fox News is for the Republican Party. There may not be an exact equivalent of QAnon on the left but go back to pre-pandemic times and the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.

It's perfectly fair from everything that I've read* to say that pre-pandemic there was a fair bit of anti-vaccine sentiment on the fringes of the left in the US.  But this was never a mainstream thing.  I don't remember much (any?) public support from Democratic congresspeople regarding not getting vaccinated.

Fringe crazies are always going to exist regardless of political orientation.  But that's not what seems to be going on in the Republcan party.  There is mainstream, open support of Qanon and Trump's great lie in elected Republican representatives:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/videos/more-than-half-of-the-gop-primary-winners-so-far-believe-the-big-lie/

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-36-qanon-supporters-running-congress-in-the-2022-midterms-2021-6

It's difficult for me to equate both sides on this - they truly do seem to be different.





* Edited to add that it appears that what I've read may well be incorrect.  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1532673X211022639

Quote
Vaccine safety skeptics are often thought to be more likely to self-identify as Democrats (vs. Independents or Republicans). Recent studies, however, suggest that childhood vaccine misinformation is either more common among Republicans, or is uninfluenced by partisan identification (PID). Uncertainty about the partisan underpinnings of vaccine misinformation acceptance is important, as it could complicate efforts to pursue pro-vaccine health policies. I theorize that Republicans should be more likely to endorse anti-vaccine misinformation, as they tend to express more-negative views toward scientific experts. Across six demographically and nationally representative surveys, I find that—while few Americans think that “anti-vaxxers” are more likely to be Republicans than Democrats—Republican PID is significantly associated with the belief that childhood vaccines can cause autism. Consistent with theoretical expectations, effect is strongly mediated by anti-expert attitudes—an effect which supplemental panel analyses suggest is unlikely to be reverse causal.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 01:20:15 PM by GuitarStv »

FIPurpose

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1664 on: June 09, 2022, 01:27:07 PM »
Somewhat related news . . . but there are right wing political organizations paid to create false websites to try to trick journalists into reporting lies as truth.  If you're not paying attention, it's easy to get riled up about things that aren't real.

At the moment, I'm not aware of this kind of organized and well funded network of lies on the left to push political agendas.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-the-left-had-to-steal-the-rights-dark-money-playbook-bonus-episode/

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And the other is a for-profit progressive local news network called Courier Newsroom. And I really did that so I could preserve the mission, which is to build power and infrastructure for the progressive movement.

VENKATESH: Okay. I want to talk about this fascinating project, Courier Newsroom. If I understand it, it publishes digital newspapers in six key swing states. And you’ve got reporters and editors and, on the face of it, the digital sites that you’ve created look like local news. But I think the intention is that the sites are helping to promote progressive candidates in those states. And so, I’m curious to know how you think about these sites. Is it news? Is it marketing? Are they political instruments? And I wonder if this is really the face of so much of modern media.

MCGOWAN: Courier has seven newsrooms, all staffed by reputable journalists and editors, many of who lost their jobs as local news outlets have been shuttered across the country. And we have been unapologetically transparent about our progressive values and mission. The genesis for Courier Newsroom was actually that white paper about the power and influence of the right-wing media, online and off, and the lack of owned-progressive media that espouses progressive values but maintains and preserves the integrity of journalism and of fact-checking. Part of the genesis was also my frustration with the billions of dollars that are spent and largely wasted on paid advertising in election cycles.

The majority of Americans do not read newspapers. They do not watch the evening news or cable news. Their news consumption is incredibly passive. They are getting their news by scrolling their social-media news feeds or talking to their friends. And that allows misinformation to really have an impact on those Americans, because it is targeted to influence them. And we built Courier to be focused on getting stories and facts and information to voters on social-media news feeds. You know, partisan media is not new. That said, we are in a murky territory in terms of media and news. And I really prefer to live in the world as it exists, not the one that I want it to be, and fight like hell to build the power in order to build the world that I do want.

Local news continues to be where the majority of Americans say they trust their information most. And yet, we have a huge void of it in this country that is only getting worse. State government is where so many decisions that affect our lives are made. And yet, turnout for state elections is abysmal. It’s far worse than national turnout, which isn’t great in America. And there has been a lot of research to show a direct correlation between the presence of local media and civic participation. So, basically, when you don’t have local journalism or local trusted news sources, you are less likely to participate civically in your community.

Here's an example of the left-wing is trying to create a similar thing. We can quibble over what are lies, disinformation, half-truths, etc. But to pretend one side deals in pure facts while the other side deals in pure lies is absurd. Both sides lie, both sides push their own agenda through whatever means they can. MSNBC is as much a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party as Fox News is for the Republican Party. There may not be an exact equivalent of QAnon on the left but go back to pre-pandemic times and the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.

Anti-vaxers pre-pandemic being located in larger cities (and wasn't even a national political movement) does not make it "lefty".

Plus, for having several "crunchy" family members who have been anti vax my entire life, I can tell you they are far from "lefty". These are most typically wealthy, conservative Christians that live in liberal city centers.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1665 on: June 09, 2022, 02:25:32 PM »
Anti-vaxers pre-pandemic being located in larger cities (and wasn't even a national political movement) does not make it "lefty".

Plus, for having several "crunchy" family members who have been anti vax my entire life, I can tell you they are far from "lefty". These are most typically wealthy, conservative Christians that live in liberal city centers.

Maybe in your family. In my family the anti-vaxxers live in Santa Cruz and Oakland and vote for Sanders. Although I suspect that they have changed their tune with the pandemic.

I'm no longer friends with my cousin's mother-in-law because she tried to tell me that Polio wasn't real right before she voted for Sanders.

EDITed to add that Jenny McCarthy, who left The View because she thought that she was being asked to be too right leaning, might be the left's most famous anti-vaxxer.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 02:29:55 PM by PDXTabs »

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1666 on: June 09, 2022, 02:44:31 PM »
Anti-vaxers pre-pandemic being located in larger cities (and wasn't even a national political movement) does not make it "lefty".

Plus, for having several "crunchy" family members who have been anti vax my entire life, I can tell you they are far from "lefty". These are most typically wealthy, conservative Christians that live in liberal city centers.

Maybe in your family. In my family the anti-vaxxers live in Santa Cruz and Oakland and vote for Sanders. Although I suspect that they have changed their tune with the pandemic.

I'm no longer friends with my cousin's mother-in-law because she tried to tell me that Polio wasn't real right before she voted for Sanders.

EDITed to add that Jenny McCarthy, who left The View because she thought that she was being asked to be too right leaning, might be the left's most famous anti-vaxxer.

Sure, but that doesn't make it a "Lefty" movement. That'd be like saying that essential oils are a "lefty" thing. Not all liberal city culture or Chrisitian right culture are signifiers of some greater political trend or "movement". It would be like saying crystals are a "lefty" subculture because Portland hippies like them. Until you find out there's a whole subculture of mormon moms who also like crystals. A particular subculture liking something doesn't mean that there's any connection to that subgroup's politics.

Even then, I don't think you can compare the size and scope of a "lefty anti-vax" group to the right's Q-anon base. One is hundreds of times bigger, if not thousands.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1667 on: June 09, 2022, 02:45:56 PM »
the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.

I'm going to provide the anecdotal experience of literally every anti-vax person I have ran into in the last few years (come to think of it, in my entire life) and say they definitely were not "crunchy left-wing" people. Every anti-vax person I am aware of meeting has been conservative and religious.

Blue areas are where people are, thus where communicable diseases will spread fastest. Even a blue state like Seattle had 36.7% vote for Trump.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1668 on: June 09, 2022, 02:48:24 PM »
Anti-vaxers pre-pandemic being located in larger cities (and wasn't even a national political movement) does not make it "lefty".

Plus, for having several "crunchy" family members who have been anti vax my entire life, I can tell you they are far from "lefty". These are most typically wealthy, conservative Christians that live in liberal city centers.

Maybe in your family. In my family the anti-vaxxers live in Santa Cruz and Oakland and vote for Sanders. Although I suspect that they have changed their tune with the pandemic.

I'm no longer friends with my cousin's mother-in-law because she tried to tell me that Polio wasn't real right before she voted for Sanders.

EDITed to add that Jenny McCarthy, who left The View because she thought that she was being asked to be too right leaning, might be the left's most famous anti-vaxxer.

Sure, but that doesn't make it a "Lefty" movement. That'd be like saying that essential oils are a "lefty" thing. Not all liberal city culture or Chrisitian right culture are signifiers of some greater political trend or "movement". It would be like saying crystals are a "lefty" subculture because Portland hippies like them. Until you find out there's a whole subculture of mormon moms who also like crystals. A particular subculture liking something doesn't mean that there's any connection to that subgroup's politics.

Even then, I don't think you can compare the size and scope of a "lefty anti-vax" group to the right's Q-anon base. One is hundreds of times bigger, if not thousands.

I certainly agree that the right has industrialized a cottage industry that was on the left. It is also possible that pre-COVID anti-vax was part of the horseshoe of politics where the far left and the far right agreed.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1669 on: June 09, 2022, 02:50:33 PM »
the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.

I'm going to provide the anecdotal experience of literally every anti-vax person I have ran into in the last few years (come to think of it, in my entire life) and say they definitely were not "crunchy left-wing" people. Every anti-vax person I am aware of meeting has been conservative and religious.

If someone wanted to actually crunch some numbers they should look for public statements made by celebrities pre/post COVID and their political leanings. They could start with these 17. But I don't know a scientifically rigorous way to do that since I write software for a living.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1670 on: June 09, 2022, 02:59:12 PM »
the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.

I'm going to provide the anecdotal experience of literally every anti-vax person I have ran into in the last few years (come to think of it, in my entire life) and say they definitely were not "crunchy left-wing" people. Every anti-vax person I am aware of meeting has been conservative and religious.

If someone wanted to actually crunch some numbers they should look for public statements made by celebrities pre/post COVID and their political leanings. They could start with these 17. But I don't know a scientifically rigorous way to do that since I write software for a living.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NPR_PBS-NewsHour_Marist-Poll_USA-NOS-and-Tables_202103091124.pdf#page=3


PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1671 on: June 09, 2022, 03:05:54 PM »
the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.

I'm going to provide the anecdotal experience of literally every anti-vax person I have ran into in the last few years (come to think of it, in my entire life) and say they definitely were not "crunchy left-wing" people. Every anti-vax person I am aware of meeting has been conservative and religious.

If someone wanted to actually crunch some numbers they should look for public statements made by celebrities pre/post COVID and their political leanings. They could start with these 17. But I don't know a scientifically rigorous way to do that since I write software for a living.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NPR_PBS-NewsHour_Marist-Poll_USA-NOS-and-Tables_202103091124.pdf#page=3

Indeed, but I thought that we were discussing misinformation?

Along those lines I did find actual evidence that there were more right leaning anti-vaxxers pre-COVID: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/

But that is a little different than anti-vax misinformation campaigns.


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1672 on: June 10, 2022, 05:12:59 AM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1673 on: June 10, 2022, 05:18:50 AM »
the anti-vax movement was definitely more of a crunchy left-wing movement. Just look at where the measles outbreak were occurring, deep blue areas like the Bay Area and Seattle - not in Wyoming or Alabama.

I'm going to provide the anecdotal experience of literally every anti-vax person I have ran into in the last few years (come to think of it, in my entire life) and say they definitely were not "crunchy left-wing" people. Every anti-vax person I am aware of meeting has been conservative and religious.

If someone wanted to actually crunch some numbers they should look for public statements made by celebrities pre/post COVID and their political leanings. They could start with these 17. But I don't know a scientifically rigorous way to do that since I write software for a living.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NPR_PBS-NewsHour_Marist-Poll_USA-NOS-and-Tables_202103091124.pdf#page=3

Indeed, but I thought that we were discussing misinformation?

Along those lines I did find actual evidence that there were more right leaning anti-vaxxers pre-COVID: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/

But that is a little different than anti-vax misinformation campaigns.
I'm linking to an opinion article, unfortunately, because I couldn't find the result they claim in the Pew survey to which they linked.  What surprised me wasn't the exact numbers, but that it was roughly even across parties.

"In 2015, the Pew Research Center conducted a survey of 2 thousand adults which concluded about 12 percent of liberals and 10 percent of conservatives believed that childhood vaccines are unsafe."
https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/childhood-vaccination-programs-should-be-exempt-political-bias

former player

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1674 on: June 10, 2022, 06:05:08 AM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.

LennStar

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1675 on: June 10, 2022, 08:13:48 AM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.
And still quite a bit of distance between the unfounded fear of "late side effects" and "Bill gates is going to chip me".

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1676 on: June 10, 2022, 09:46:38 AM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.
Where is your evidence most Republicans hold "The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia ..." ?

JLee

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1677 on: June 10, 2022, 09:53:30 AM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.
Where is your evidence most Republicans hold "The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia ..." ?

How do you get "Most Republicans hold the belief" out of "Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party"? 

FIPurpose

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1678 on: June 10, 2022, 09:53:42 AM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.
Where is your evidence most Republicans hold "The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia ..." ?

https://www.prri.org/research/qanon-conspiracy-american-politics-report/

Quote
A nontrivial 15% of Americans agree with the sweeping QAnon allegation that “the government, media, and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation,” while the vast majority of Americans (82%) disagree with this statement. Republicans (23%) are significantly more likely than independents (14%) and Democrats (8%) to agree that the government, media, and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1679 on: June 10, 2022, 09:54:00 AM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.
Where is your evidence most Republicans hold "The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia ..." ?
Who said anything about "most"? And I was using shorthand to characterise the batshit crazy Trump-loving wing of the Republican party which apparently is currently in charge of it and getting candidates for elected office all over.

sailinlight

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1680 on: June 10, 2022, 10:48:08 AM »
If someone asked me “the government, media, and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation,” in an opinion poll (assuming I"d talk to them at all) I'd say yes too, just for fun.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1681 on: June 10, 2022, 11:09:57 AM »
If someone asked me “the government, media, and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation,” in an opinion poll (assuming I"d talk to them at all) I'd say yes too, just for fun.

I don't think that they are Satan worshipers. CNN: Jeffrey Epstein’s former pilot testifies Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Prince Andrew flew aboard Epstein’s private plane

GuitarStv

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1682 on: June 10, 2022, 11:12:41 AM »
If someone asked me “the government, media, and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation,” in an opinion poll (assuming I"d talk to them at all) I'd say yes too, just for fun.

Would you elect people who believe it though?  When does it stop being fun?

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-36-qanon-supporters-running-congress-in-the-2022-midterms-2021-6

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1683 on: June 10, 2022, 12:19:11 PM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.
Where is your evidence most Republicans hold "The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia ..." ?
Who said anything about "most"? And I was using shorthand to characterise the batshit crazy Trump-loving wing of the Republican party which apparently is currently in charge of it and getting candidates for elected office all over.
You said "a Republican obsession" - how does that not refer to most Republicans?

chemistk

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1684 on: June 10, 2022, 01:03:11 PM »
The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia is another.  Those extreme illogicalities are rife in only one political party, ...
"As much as QAnon feels like a distinctly modern phenomenon, much of its lore is rooted in conspiracy theories that have existed for decades or, in some cases, centuries (the core one is that a global cabal of elites is running a Satanic child sex-trafficking and cannabilism ring)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/
True.  But still currently a Republican obsession rather than a Democrat one.
Where is your evidence most Republicans hold "The belief that a cabal led by George Soros and Tom Hanks is trying the rule the world through paedophilia ..." ?
Who said anything about "most"? And I was using shorthand to characterise the batshit crazy Trump-loving wing of the Republican party which apparently is currently in charge of it and getting candidates for elected office all over.
You said "a Republican obsession" - how does that not refer to most Republicans?

Semantics-wise, the phrasing indicates that Group 1 (R) is more likely to agree with the idea than Group 2 (D).

Practically speaking, we've got to agree that there's not a great way to specifically determine the extent to which those who identify as Republicans sympathize with radical beliefs. I try and be objective when responding to polls but plenty of folks aren't.

If you had to ask me - I would confidently be able to say that most Republicans I know (as in, in my own life and not just people I've met) believe in or agree with QAnon, the stupid pedophile cabal idea, that Jan 6 was not an insurrection, that various shootings and protests have been false flags, etc.

My parents, my wife's parents, people I was close with in high school and in college, and many extended family are at the very, very least sympathetic toward and more often than not in agreement with many of the most radical ideas espoused here and in this vein.

But we all can recognize that I'm not the statistical average. Am I an outlier? I'd probably say no. This isn't something that those people over there believe or espouse, these radical ideas are held by a large and diverse array of people who identify as Republicans.

And yes,  I will emphasize that I recognize and it's important for others to do so that anecdata =/= statistical average.

But just as the Republicans in your life might not be swayed by radical ideology, those in my life are. And there are plenty of people like you and me and versions of us in between.


lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1685 on: June 19, 2022, 01:02:00 PM »
The amount of stupid on display is amazing:

"Biden officials are taking a second look at whether the federal government could send rebate cards out to millions of American drivers to help them pay at gas stations — an idea they examined months ago before ruling it out. Aides had found that shortages in the U.S. chip industry would make it hard to produce enough rebate cards, two people familiar with the matter said. White House officials also fear there would be no way to prevent consumers from using them for purchases other than gasoline"
...
"White House officials have scrambled in recent days to again review all potential federal policy responses. Officials have also discussed telling governors to lower or waive their gas taxes, another person familiar with internal administration discussions said."

I wonder what it would feel like to have a real presidential administration?

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1686 on: June 19, 2022, 01:24:14 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1687 on: June 19, 2022, 03:04:46 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

He's behaving like a person desperate to get reelected and acting poorly because of it. Newsflash... You're not going to get reelected. Harris is not going to succeed you. The whole administration, right or wrong - things look bad and they're at the helm. Take one for the team and step away. Biden should have anyways. Now it's all but 100% certain with his actions compounding it that he's not going to win. I don't understand why he doesn't swing for the fences and try more extreme things and not this silliness.

Kris

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1688 on: June 19, 2022, 03:33:05 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

He's behaving like a person desperate to get reelected and acting poorly because of it. Newsflash... You're not going to get reelected. Harris is not going to succeed you. The whole administration, right or wrong - things look bad and they're at the helm. Take one for the team and step away. Biden should have anyways. Now it's all but 100% certain with his actions compounding it that he's not going to win. I don't understand why he doesn't swing for the fences and try more extreme things and not this silliness.

I 100% agree with you on swinging for the fences. This administration has been a huge disappointment. I don’t fault them for inflation and the looming recession. But I do fault them for really seeming to sit on their hands for a hell of a lot of the past year and a half on a hell of a lot of things.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1689 on: June 19, 2022, 04:45:36 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

He's behaving like a person desperate to get reelected and acting poorly because of it. Newsflash... You're not going to get reelected. Harris is not going to succeed you. The whole administration, right or wrong - things look bad and they're at the helm. Take one for the team and step away. Biden should have anyways. Now it's all but 100% certain with his actions compounding it that he's not going to win. I don't understand why he doesn't swing for the fences and try more extreme things and not this silliness.

I 100% agree with you on swinging for the fences. This administration has been a huge disappointment. I don’t fault them for inflation and the looming recession. But I do fault them for really seeming to sit on their hands for a hell of a lot of the past year and a half on a hell of a lot of things.

I really just don't understand why he's not doing it. My hypothesis is he's worried about electability, but do you think that's it? Do you think he's just truly really moderate and doesn't believe in progressive ideals?

Kris

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1690 on: June 19, 2022, 04:50:03 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

He's behaving like a person desperate to get reelected and acting poorly because of it. Newsflash... You're not going to get reelected. Harris is not going to succeed you. The whole administration, right or wrong - things look bad and they're at the helm. Take one for the team and step away. Biden should have anyways. Now it's all but 100% certain with his actions compounding it that he's not going to win. I don't understand why he doesn't swing for the fences and try more extreme things and not this silliness.

I 100% agree with you on swinging for the fences. This administration has been a huge disappointment. I don’t fault them for inflation and the looming recession. But I do fault them for really seeming to sit on their hands for a hell of a lot of the past year and a half on a hell of a lot of things.

I really just don't understand why he's not doing it. My hypothesis is he's worried about electability, but do you think that's it? Do you think he's just truly really moderate and doesn't believe in progressive ideals?

Liberals are center-right. He hasn’t been a progressive in a long time.

Neither have his appointees been. Even Buttegieg.

nereo

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1691 on: June 19, 2022, 05:05:29 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

He's behaving like a person desperate to get reelected and acting poorly because of it. Newsflash... You're not going to get reelected. Harris is not going to succeed you. The whole administration, right or wrong - things look bad and they're at the helm. Take one for the team and step away. Biden should have anyways. Now it's all but 100% certain with his actions compounding it that he's not going to win. I don't understand why he doesn't swing for the fences and try more extreme things and not this silliness.

I 100% agree with you on swinging for the fences. This administration has been a huge disappointment. I don’t fault them for inflation and the looming recession. But I do fault them for really seeming to sit on their hands for a hell of a lot of the past year and a half on a hell of a lot of things.

I really just don't understand why he's not doing it. My hypothesis is he's worried about electability, but do you think that's it? Do you think he's just truly really moderate and doesn't believe in progressive ideals?

Biden is a centrist within the Democratic Party.  He joined the Obama ticket in part to quell the perception that Obama was too progressive to get elected. Biden’s never really pushed the progressive lines - as examples he’s publicly favored keeping the ACA framework over a single-payer system and hasn’t favored UBI (instead showing lukewarm support for raising the minimum wage). For a Democrat he’s been pretty supportive of large corporations, much to the ire of Warren.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1692 on: June 19, 2022, 07:35:59 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.


That is not legal as we are not in a declared war (and probably wouldn’t be even if we were), and would not increased our refining capacity, as it is already at full tilt when accounting for downtime at various plants. Just wanted to throw that out there. Good discussion otherwise.

PDXTabs

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1693 on: June 19, 2022, 09:06:20 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

I'm not a socialist so I don't like the country nationalizing things. But state run oil companies are actually shit at doing their jobs. So we should definitely nationalize them for the good of the planet. If you don't believe me, look at Pemex.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1694 on: June 19, 2022, 09:29:15 PM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

I'm not a socialist so I don't like the country nationalizing things. But state run oil companies are actually shit at doing their jobs. So we should definitely nationalize them for the good of the planet. If you don't believe me, look at Pemex.

If you consider state-run oil companies' function is to enrich the oligarchy vs. provide maximum production to generate revenue for the state, then they do pretty well. After all, a well-run company is a lot harder to embezzle from.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1695 on: June 20, 2022, 01:19:03 AM »
Moments like this don't help when you're wanting market forces to simply swing your way:

https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1537214216989552641

Energy Secretary basically says in the same sentence "We want more refinery capacity now, but we also want to shut it back down as soon as we're past this."

Love oil companies or hate them, who in their right business mind would invest a dime into that?

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1696 on: June 20, 2022, 08:18:00 AM »
For real. This response to gas prices is probably one of the worst things Biden has done thus far. He should be threatening nationalizing gas companies. They would start ramping up refinement in no time if he did that. Instead we need another layer of stupid bureaucracy? These neo-liberal politicians' solutions are getting old.

I'm not a socialist so I don't like the country nationalizing things. But state run oil companies are actually shit at doing their jobs. So we should definitely nationalize them for the good of the planet. If you don't believe me, look at Pemex.

If you consider state-run oil companies' function is to enrich the oligarchy vs. provide maximum production to generate revenue for the state, then they do pretty well. After all, a well-run company is a lot harder to embezzle from.
Exactly. Read up on the course of ressources and the book in my signature and you will understand that in most cases those companies are working as intended. Especially in despotic countries: they provide a steady stream of income to a select few without need for local workers (who might use this as political leverage).

It's a bit like "Socialism is so ineffective!" - not in providing every person with a job close to where they live. That is probably the reason for the famous "3 people to sell you meat" story. It's just a different goal that is served and if you ignore that goal in "ancient" USSR or today's America, you are blind to a huge, important part of understanding what happens around you. 

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1697 on: June 20, 2022, 08:39:08 AM »
Socialists are so disappointed with Biden, you'd almost wonder if the man he defeated in November 2020 would be more to their liking?

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1698 on: June 20, 2022, 08:48:20 AM »
Socialists are so disappointed with Biden, you'd almost wonder if the man he defeated in November 2020 would be more to their liking?
Oh, I haven't seen any Socialists comment on him, do you have some examples?
I would even accept Bernie Sanders opinion, even though he is not a Socialist. But I guess that is how far you can get in the US.

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Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1699 on: June 20, 2022, 08:51:58 AM »
It's not fair to label the critics at this town hall as socialists, but I have in mind articles like the following:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/10/22/biden-pleads-progressive-patience-cnn-town-hall/