Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )

[sixwings]

In the current anti-immigrant environment do you think there was political will for SIV? Trump only gave our 500ish SIVs, Biden took over with a backlog of 17,000  and Trump really slowed down that process specifically to reduce immigration, as a result when Biden took over he didnt actually have 6 months to get it going because it had to be rebuilt and the backlog assessed. And if he stayed longer we'd all be talking about how Biden is just feeding the perpetual war machine, conservatives would be freaking out about how all these undervetted "terrorists" are flooding the country to impose sharia law, etc. etc. etc. There's no good answers here. While Biden could definitely have been messaging this better I think most of this disaster was totally baked in when Biden took office.

Biden re writes trump immigration policies almost daily so yeah he could have done something with SIV. essentially your argument is Republicans would criticize him so he couldn’t do anything else. Even if that anything else was a small delay in the withdrawal?

If the old man can’t take the political heat it’s time to get out of the kitchen.

Trump was already criticizing Biden for not withdrawing earlier. There’s no scenario where people like you wouldn’t think he should have done something differently.

And apparently Biden can just waive a magic wand and get all of this set up immediately and have tens of thousands of SIVs processed overnight. There was no good options here, Biden didnt even get a proper transition period starting November because Trump wouldnt cooperate. He was starting at 0 on Jan 22nd but apparently could have had tens of thousands of visa's processed overnight. Totally reasonable and rationale. If he extends the timeline he's breaking the peace treaty with the taliban and the war is back on and a troop surge required, would that have been preferable? Would people here be sagely nodding their heads that yeah, more troops in Afghanistan made sense?

Bidens biggest issue was he overpromised when underdelivery was totally baked.

We’re sitting here 7 months after he took office. His own democrat congress men have warned him on this the entire time. He ignored the issue or just didn’t care. And now 13 service men got exploded.

Your use of the timeline overnight shows you are not being serious at all.

7 months is not a lot of time to process tens of thousands of SIVs when the infrastructure, people, processes and budget are not in place to support that with no transition period and an entirely new leadership team being stood up. No organization can move that fast, certainly not government. It's just not an issue of changing policy (which is not just a snap of the fingers), the people, technology and processes and budget then have to be put in place to support it.  The SIV issue was completely baked before Biden took office.

The issue was not easily solved or preventable like you seem to think it was.  But yes, youre  right he was overly optimistic and overpromised when it was made clear to him that wouldn't be possible. But that's a messaging issue, the  outcome was  pretty much inevitable unless Biden cancelled the peace treaty with the taliban, restarted the war and sent more troops in.  Which  would have left a lot  more than 13 people dead.

[Tyler durden]

In the current anti-immigrant environment do you think there was political will for SIV? Trump only gave our 500ish SIVs, Biden took over with a backlog of 17,000  and Trump really slowed down that process specifically to reduce immigration, as a result when Biden took over he didnt actually have 6 months to get it going because it had to be rebuilt and the backlog assessed. And if he stayed longer we'd all be talking about how Biden is just feeding the perpetual war machine, conservatives would be freaking out about how all these undervetted "terrorists" are flooding the country to impose sharia law, etc. etc. etc. There's no good answers here. While Biden could definitely have been messaging this better I think most of this disaster was totally baked in when Biden took office.

Biden re writes trump immigration policies almost daily so yeah he could have done something with SIV. essentially your argument is Republicans would criticize him so he couldn’t do anything else. Even if that anything else was a small delay in the withdrawal?

If the old man can’t take the political heat it’s time to get out of the kitchen.

Trump was already criticizing Biden for not withdrawing earlier. There’s no scenario where people like you wouldn’t think he should have done something differently.

And apparently Biden can just waive a magic wand and get all of this set up immediately and have tens of thousands of SIVs processed overnight. There was no good options here, Biden didnt even get a proper transition period starting November because Trump wouldnt cooperate. He was starting at 0 on Jan 22nd but apparently could have had tens of thousands of visa's processed overnight. Totally reasonable and rationale. If he extends the timeline he's breaking the peace treaty with the taliban and the war is back on and a troop surge required, would that have been preferable? Would people here be sagely nodding their heads that yeah, more troops in Afghanistan made sense?

Bidens biggest issue was he overpromised when underdelivery was totally baked.

We’re sitting here 7 months after he took office. His own democrat congress men have warned him on this the entire time. He ignored the issue or just didn’t care. And now 13 service men got exploded.

Your use of the timeline overnight shows you are not being serious at all.

I agree with you that a zero casualty count is the preferable number, but I don't expect that while occupying a hostile country in a war. I will tally up the casualty count of US service members in Afghanistan after 4 years of a Biden administration and then compare that to the count for Trump, Obama, and Bush before I make any final judgements.

Thats a great strawman argument you've got there.

The focus here is on the botched execution of the withdrawal.

No need to wait 4 years. How do you think Biden's Afghan withdrawal is going so far? According to him its going great and this is all part of the plan. many on both sides of the aisle disagree.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/24/white-house-media-afghanistan-506849

Top Biden officials and administration allies have begun aggressively touting the success of their evacuation efforts in the war-torn country, offering frequent updates on the number of evacuees. They’ve framed the operation as historic — in line with the Berlin airlift — declared that they’re “over performing” their own metrics, and trumpeted the president as “defying expectations.”

[Tyler durden]

In the current anti-immigrant environment do you think there was political will for SIV? Trump only gave our 500ish SIVs, Biden took over with a backlog of 17,000  and Trump really slowed down that process specifically to reduce immigration, as a result when Biden took over he didnt actually have 6 months to get it going because it had to be rebuilt and the backlog assessed. And if he stayed longer we'd all be talking about how Biden is just feeding the perpetual war machine, conservatives would be freaking out about how all these undervetted "terrorists" are flooding the country to impose sharia law, etc. etc. etc. There's no good answers here. While Biden could definitely have been messaging this better I think most of this disaster was totally baked in when Biden took office.

Biden re writes trump immigration policies almost daily so yeah he could have done something with SIV. essentially your argument is Republicans would criticize him so he couldn’t do anything else. Even if that anything else was a small delay in the withdrawal?

If the old man can’t take the political heat it’s time to get out of the kitchen.

Trump was already criticizing Biden for not withdrawing earlier. There’s no scenario where people like you wouldn’t think he should have done something differently.

And apparently Biden can just waive a magic wand and get all of this set up immediately and have tens of thousands of SIVs processed overnight. There was no good options here, Biden didnt even get a proper transition period starting November because Trump wouldnt cooperate. He was starting at 0 on Jan 22nd but apparently could have had tens of thousands of visa's processed overnight. Totally reasonable and rationale. If he extends the timeline he's breaking the peace treaty with the taliban and the war is back on and a troop surge required, would that have been preferable? Would people here be sagely nodding their heads that yeah, more troops in Afghanistan made sense?

Bidens biggest issue was he overpromised when underdelivery was totally baked.

We’re sitting here 7 months after he took office. His own democrat congress men have warned him on this the entire time. He ignored the issue or just didn’t care. And now 13 service men got exploded.

Your use of the timeline overnight shows you are not being serious at all.

7 months is not a lot of time to process tens of thousands of SIVs when the infrastructure, people, processes and budget are not in place to support that with no transition period and an entirely new leadership team being stood up. No organization can move that fast, certainly not government. It's just not an issue of changing policy (which is not just a snap of the fingers), the people, technology and processes and budget then have to be put in place to support it.  The SIV issue was completely baked before Biden took office.

The issue was not easily solved or preventable like you seem to think it was.  But yes, youre  right he was overly optimistic and overpromised when it was made clear to him that wouldn't be possible. But that's a messaging issue, the  outcome was  pretty much inevitable unless Biden cancelled the peace treaty with the taliban, restarted the war and sent more troops in.  Which  would have left a lot  more than 13 people dead.

You are incorrect.

They are about to house 50,000 SIV applicants etc. at a US base. It seems the idea is to get them there and sort them out in safety. That is being done in a single week. Think what we could have done in 7 months.

In a news release, the AFB said the relocation is part of what the U.S. is calling “Operation Allies Refuge,” which will provide “temporary housing and support for up to 50,000 at-risk Afghans.” It’s unclear exactly how many refugees will be staying at Holloman Air Force base, or for how long.

https://abq.news/2021/08/afghan-refugees-will-be-housed-at-holloman-afb/

[sixwings]

Like I said, messaging issue, not actual actions. There's very little Biden could actually have done to prevent this, it was baked in. He's been way over promising when underdelivery was totally guaranteed by 20 years of previous decisions.

To your second post there, looks like they set up a refugee camp. That's great! Not the same as processing tens of thousands of SIVs though.

But whatever, you clearly just want to complain and not really try to understand the realities, so go ahead, watch your fox news and whine.

[EvenSteven]

In the current anti-immigrant environment do you think there was political will for SIV? Trump only gave our 500ish SIVs, Biden took over with a backlog of 17,000  and Trump really slowed down that process specifically to reduce immigration, as a result when Biden took over he didnt actually have 6 months to get it going because it had to be rebuilt and the backlog assessed. And if he stayed longer we'd all be talking about how Biden is just feeding the perpetual war machine, conservatives would be freaking out about how all these undervetted "terrorists" are flooding the country to impose sharia law, etc. etc. etc. There's no good answers here. While Biden could definitely have been messaging this better I think most of this disaster was totally baked in when Biden took office.

Biden re writes trump immigration policies almost daily so yeah he could have done something with SIV. essentially your argument is Republicans would criticize him so he couldn’t do anything else. Even if that anything else was a small delay in the withdrawal?

If the old man can’t take the political heat it’s time to get out of the kitchen.

Trump was already criticizing Biden for not withdrawing earlier. There’s no scenario where people like you wouldn’t think he should have done something differently.

And apparently Biden can just waive a magic wand and get all of this set up immediately and have tens of thousands of SIVs processed overnight. There was no good options here, Biden didnt even get a proper transition period starting November because Trump wouldnt cooperate. He was starting at 0 on Jan 22nd but apparently could have had tens of thousands of visa's processed overnight. Totally reasonable and rationale. If he extends the timeline he's breaking the peace treaty with the taliban and the war is back on and a troop surge required, would that have been preferable? Would people here be sagely nodding their heads that yeah, more troops in Afghanistan made sense?

Bidens biggest issue was he overpromised when underdelivery was totally baked.

We’re sitting here 7 months after he took office. His own democrat congress men have warned him on this the entire time. He ignored the issue or just didn’t care. And now 13 service men got exploded.

Your use of the timeline overnight shows you are not being serious at all.

I agree with you that a zero casualty count is the preferable number, but I don't expect that while occupying a hostile country in a war. I will tally up the casualty count of US service members in Afghanistan after 4 years of a Biden administration and then compare that to the count for Trump, Obama, and Bush before I make any final judgements.

Thats a great strawman argument you've got there.

The focus here is on the botched execution of the withdrawal.

No need to wait 4 years. How do you think Biden's Afghan withdrawal is going so far? According to him its going great and this is all part of the plan. many on both sides of the aisle disagree.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/24/white-house-media-afghanistan-506849

Top Biden officials and administration allies have begun aggressively touting the success of their evacuation efforts in the war-torn country, offering frequent updates on the number of evacuees. They’ve framed the operation as historic — in line with the Berlin airlift — declared that they’re “over performing” their own metrics, and trumpeted the president as “defying expectations.”

It seems the withdrawal is going rather poorly, but it is not at all clear to me what should have been done to have it go smoothly, even with hindsight. I think the overall Afghanistan policy of withdrawing, and honoring Trumps peace deal is the right thing to do.

I also don't think staying an extra 6 months would have prevented suicide bombers or lowered the overall casualty count in Afghanistan.

[FIPurpose]

In the current anti-immigrant environment do you think there was political will for SIV? Trump only gave our 500ish SIVs, Biden took over with a backlog of 17,000  and Trump really slowed down that process specifically to reduce immigration, as a result when Biden took over he didnt actually have 6 months to get it going because it had to be rebuilt and the backlog assessed. And if he stayed longer we'd all be talking about how Biden is just feeding the perpetual war machine, conservatives would be freaking out about how all these undervetted "terrorists" are flooding the country to impose sharia law, etc. etc. etc. There's no good answers here. While Biden could definitely have been messaging this better I think most of this disaster was totally baked in when Biden took office.

Biden re writes trump immigration policies almost daily so yeah he could have done something with SIV. essentially your argument is Republicans would criticize him so he couldn’t do anything else. Even if that anything else was a small delay in the withdrawal?

If the old man can’t take the political heat it’s time to get out of the kitchen.

Trump was already criticizing Biden for not withdrawing earlier. There’s no scenario where people like you wouldn’t think he should have done something differently.

And apparently Biden can just waive a magic wand and get all of this set up immediately and have tens of thousands of SIVs processed overnight. There was no good options here, Biden didnt even get a proper transition period starting November because Trump wouldnt cooperate. He was starting at 0 on Jan 22nd but apparently could have had tens of thousands of visa's processed overnight. Totally reasonable and rationale. If he extends the timeline he's breaking the peace treaty with the taliban and the war is back on and a troop surge required, would that have been preferable? Would people here be sagely nodding their heads that yeah, more troops in Afghanistan made sense?

Bidens biggest issue was he overpromised when underdelivery was totally baked.

We’re sitting here 7 months after he took office. His own democrat congress men have warned him on this the entire time. He ignored the issue or just didn’t care. And now 13 service men got exploded.

Your use of the timeline overnight shows you are not being serious at all.

I agree with you that a zero casualty count is the preferable number, but I don't expect that while occupying a hostile country in a war. I will tally up the casualty count of US service members in Afghanistan after 4 years of a Biden administration and then compare that to the count for Trump, Obama, and Bush before I make any final judgements.

The numbers I found look like this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/262894/western-coalition-soldiers-killed-in-afghanistan/

2001: 12
2002: 49
2003: 48
2004: 52
2005: 99
2006: 98
2007: 117
2008: 155
2009: 317
2010: 498
2011: 415
2012: 310
2013: 128
2014: 55
2015: 22
2016: 13
2017: 15
2018: 14
2019: 24
2020: 11

Not saying that 13 people don't matter, but it's literally happened every year of war for 20 years. Are we saying that the last three presidents are now responsible for every military action? Suddenly Biden finalizes the US leaving and only now do soldiers' deaths make the news? If only the number of soldiers dying in Afghanistan would've made headlines a decade ago, maybe we wouldn't be here today.

At least on some level, I'm sympathetic to that. The buck stops at the president's desk, but the outcomes of every military operation are not up to the president. War is crazy, random, and unfair.

[Villanelle]

I think as Biden supporters, or Democrats (or not), our job is to continue to question him and his polices.

I simply can not believe that there was no better way than this. 

Yes, there is staggering and glaring hypocrisy on many from the Right, who are criticizing things they would have celebrated with their guy in power, and bemoaning policies perviously supported by their guy, and themselves.  But that's not the point.  We need to be intellectually honest enough to try to evaluate policies and form opinions outside of what someone else did, or the color necktie of the guy making the call.

This is a tragedy.  And that is not a word I use cavalierly; in fact, I roll my eyes when a car accident is called a tragedy.  Two people dead?  A damn shame.  The Titanic or 9/11?  A tragedy.  IMO, this withdraw is a tragedy and while there was likely no perfect way to accomplish it, and no way to have done it without some chaos and suffering, and maybe even some deaths, there is no way that there wasn't something better than this. 

I'm still glad Biden won the election and that it isn't Trump currently in charge, but that doesn't like Biden off the hook for what has happened.

[Tyler durden]

I think as Biden supporters, or Democrats (or not), our job is to continue to question him and his polices.

I simply can not believe that there was no better way than this. 

Yes, there is staggering and glaring hypocrisy on many from the Right, who are criticizing things they would have celebrated with their guy in power, and bemoaning policies perviously supported by their guy, and themselves.  But that's not the point.  We need to be intellectually honest enough to try to evaluate policies and form opinions outside of what someone else did, or the color necktie of the guy making the call.

This is a tragedy.  And that is not a word I use cavalierly; in fact, I roll my eyes when a car accident is called a tragedy.  Two people dead?  A damn shame.  The Titanic or 9/11?  A tragedy.  IMO, this withdraw is a tragedy and while there was likely no perfect way to accomplish it, and no way to have done it without some chaos and suffering, and maybe even some deaths, there is no way that there wasn't something better than this. 

I'm still glad Biden won the election and that it isn't Trump currently in charge, but that doesn't like Biden off the hook for what has happened.

Nope. No criticism allowed.

According to sixwings you need to go turn on your Fox News now.

[JLee]

I think as Biden supporters, or Democrats (or not), our job is to continue to question him and his polices.

I simply can not believe that there was no better way than this. 

Yes, there is staggering and glaring hypocrisy on many from the Right, who are criticizing things they would have celebrated with their guy in power, and bemoaning policies perviously supported by their guy, and themselves.  But that's not the point.  We need to be intellectually honest enough to try to evaluate policies and form opinions outside of what someone else did, or the color necktie of the guy making the call.

This is a tragedy.  And that is not a word I use cavalierly; in fact, I roll my eyes when a car accident is called a tragedy.  Two people dead?  A damn shame.  The Titanic or 9/11?  A tragedy.  IMO, this withdraw is a tragedy and while there was likely no perfect way to accomplish it, and no way to have done it without some chaos and suffering, and maybe even some deaths, there is no way that there wasn't something better than this. 

I'm still glad Biden won the election and that it isn't Trump currently in charge, but that doesn't like Biden off the hook for what has happened.

Nope. No criticism allowed.

According to sixwings you need to go turn on your Fox News now.

lol, you've even saved me the typing:

Thats a great strawman argument you've got there.

[Tyler durden]

I think as Biden supporters, or Democrats (or not), our job is to continue to question him and his polices.

I simply can not believe that there was no better way than this. 

Yes, there is staggering and glaring hypocrisy on many from the Right, who are criticizing things they would have celebrated with their guy in power, and bemoaning policies perviously supported by their guy, and themselves.  But that's not the point.  We need to be intellectually honest enough to try to evaluate policies and form opinions outside of what someone else did, or the color necktie of the guy making the call.

This is a tragedy.  And that is not a word I use cavalierly; in fact, I roll my eyes when a car accident is called a tragedy.  Two people dead?  A damn shame.  The Titanic or 9/11?  A tragedy.  IMO, this withdraw is a tragedy and while there was likely no perfect way to accomplish it, and no way to have done it without some chaos and suffering, and maybe even some deaths, there is no way that there wasn't something better than this. 

I'm still glad Biden won the election and that it isn't Trump currently in charge, but that doesn't like Biden off the hook for what has happened.

Nope. No criticism allowed.

According to sixwings you need to go turn on your Fox News now.

lol, you've even saved me the typing:

Thats a great strawman argument you've got there.

What’s my straw man.

I’m criticizing the withdrawal and most posters like Biden are saying this is as good as it could be. It was executed perfectly and any criticism is Fox News driven.

Let’s say my thoughts most closely align with Democratic representative Moulton. “This is a fucking disaster”

[sixwings]

Nah there’s just a lot better issues to criticize than the withdrawal that was always going to be a disaster and is mostly not Biden’s fault.

Like for instance, this is the campaign promise he seems intent on keeping:

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-nothing-would-fundamentally-change-if-hes-elected/

No infrastructure, no student loan forgiveness, no real meaningful action on taxation, no meaningful action on healthcare, etc.

[partgypsy]

I have to say, the withdrawal in Afghanistan, has gone worse than expected. It's terrible. However, given the externalities, I'm asking, is there anything that we as the government, could have done differently to make it go better? I don't know the answer, but I'm not hearing anything from either side what a clear way to avoid this situation. It seems to me, unfortunately once the time table was announced and agreed by the previous administration, it seems to have given the current administration very little wiggle room. As far as I can tell, the only other option, would be to bring the troops back in, and essentially restart the war? Remember, there has been only 2500 US troops in Afghanistan, since Jan 15, 2021.

The whole thing sucks.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/

[ixtap]

I have to say, the withdrawal in Afghanistan, has gone worse than expected. It's terrible. However, given the externalities, I'm asking, is there anything that we as the government, could have done differently to make it go better? I don't know the answer, but I'm not hearing anything from either side what a clear way to avoid this situation. It seems to me, unfortunately once the time table was announced and agreed by the previous administration, it seems to have given the current administration very little wiggle room. As far as I can tell, the only other option, would be to bring the troops back in, and essentially restart the war? Remember, there has been only 2500 US troops in Afghanistan, since Jan 15, 2021.

The whole thing sucks.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/

It is terrible, but there was never going to be a good outcome here. That was pretty obvious going in and going into Iraq just made it even worse.

Blaming it on Biden is a bit like blaming everything on Carter. We got ourselves into this fucked up state over several administrations. We needed a fall guy. Could it have been mitigated? I hope that we did our best on that front, but I fear this will be politicized, rather than investigated in a way that would help us learn.

[gentmach]

It seems like all of you were missing the forest for the trees.

Biden ran on a platform of "competency" and "experience." "The Adults were in charge again." And of course, the intern that runs his Twitter account would not shut up about how "America was back."

He was elected to "right the ship" as it were. He was supposed to use all four decades of experience in government to repair our alliances and keep our enemies at bay.

That is not what happened here. Even if you buy into the belief that "This was inevitable" then Biden should have taken the necessary moves to mitigate the damage that was apparently obvious to everyone. Instead his Administration appears paralyzed. We were promised "No Saigon style evacuation." We got exactly that. And worse.

Here is CNN beating Biden with a stick for his failures.
https://youtu.be/aPkVTl5lICU
https://youtu.be/PDu8bg64khk

It is not a "Right Wing" position to criticize Biden on this crisis.

[PeteD01]

Thirteen US soldiers just died while trying to rescue Afghani civilians of whom another one hundred and fifty also died while being rescued and everyone over there is still working under the threat of another attack.
I think it is quite disrespectful to be oh so concerned about who is to blame for the ordeal so many are going through rather than to look at what concretely can be done to accommodate the refugees and counter the resistance to receive them, which is already forming.
That would also be a good way to signal to the service members who are risking their lives that their sacrifice is appreciated.

[FIPurpose]

It seems like all of you were missing the forest for the trees.

Biden ran on a platform of "competency" and "experience." "The Adults were in charge again." And of course, the intern that runs his Twitter account would not shut up about how "America was back."

He was elected to "right the ship" as it were. He was supposed to use all four decades of experience in government to repair our alliances and keep our enemies at bay.

That is not what happened here. Even if you buy into the belief that "This was inevitable" then Biden should have taken the necessary moves to mitigate the damage that was apparently obvious to everyone. Instead his Administration appears paralyzed. We were promised "No Saigon style evacuation." We got exactly that. And worse.

Here is CNN beating Biden with a stick for his failures.
https://youtu.be/aPkVTl5lICU
https://youtu.be/PDu8bg64khk

It is not a "Right Wing" position to criticize Biden on this crisis.

If anything, Biden being adamant in his withdraw date is the only thing that shows his strength of character and wisdom of experience. With the entire media and White House staff basically yelling at him to keep extending the war and basically reignite it. Heck, how many other politicians can actually remember the end of Vietnam as an adult? The media is 100% wrong on this one and is only doing favors to the Military Industrial Complex who would love to see us keep indefinitely keeping thousands of soldiers there. A weaker president would've been wishy washy and keep extending our time there without any hard targets on our exit goal.

I don't think it was a given that Trump could have done this and gotten us out of Afghanistan completely. Trump had himself surrounded by the same military industrial complex sycophants who all would have told him that "now just isn't the time" or to just keep indefinitely delaying another 6 months. I don't know. Maybe he would've anyways. Both Trump and Biden are very stubborn people. It's just that one is far more selfish and self-serving than the other.

[Tyler durden]

Biden policy reversed. A win for property rights. CDC eviction moratorium over turned.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/21a23_ap6c.pdf

I think his heart is in the right place but he shouldn’t knowingly issue edicts just to have them litigated in court. I’d like to see the federal government assist the states with getting rental assistance out to tenants that need it if they could.

It’s crazy that something like only 10% of the money allocated to rental assistance has actually been spent.

[FIPurpose]

Biden policy reversed. A win for property rights. CDC eviction moratorium over turned.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/21a23_ap6c.pdf

I think his heart is in the right place but he shouldn’t knowingly issue edicts just to have them litigated in court. I’d like to see the federal government assist the states with getting rental assistance out to tenants that need it if they could.

It’s crazy that something like only 10% of the money allocated to rental assistance has actually been spent.

Apparently the reasons I've read for this is that states have been requiring far too much documentation from tenants to prove that they need assistance. Apparently they want official documentation on everyone living in the house, income history, proof that your need is covid-related.

But the other part of the problem is that apparently a landlord is also allowed to deny a tenant's rental assistance. So then the money gets locked into a fund for a defense attorney for the tenant to dispute it. However, the tenant has to stay in the apartment in order to actually keep the money. So a tenant that may no longer be able to afford a rental and would rather move to a cheaper place is instead forced to stay in a place in order to maintain their rental assistance.

And some landlords are refusing to take the money because they'd rather evict the tenant so that they can raise the rent.

The other part of the problem is that the money was doled out to the states based simply on population, not on the number of renters or cost of renting in a state. So the money isn't being distributed as well as it could've been.

A lot of problems, but this rests solely on the states who are implementing it who are creating giant barriers to actually receive the money and letting landlords opt to deny rental assistance to their tenants. It honestly may be too late to turn this around.

[EvenSteven]

Biden policy reversed. A win for property rights. CDC eviction moratorium over turned.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/21a23_ap6c.pdf

I think his heart is in the right place but he shouldn’t knowingly issue edicts just to have them litigated in court. I’d like to see the federal government assist the states with getting rental assistance out to tenants that need it if they could.

It’s crazy that something like only 10% of the money allocated to rental assistance has actually been spent.

Apparently the reasons I've read for this is that states have been requiring far too much documentation from tenants to prove that they need assistance. Apparently they want official documentation on everyone living in the house, income history, proof that your need is covid-related.

But the other part of the problem is that apparently a landlord is also allowed to deny a tenant's rental assistance. So then the money gets locked into a fund for a defense attorney for the tenant to dispute it. However, the tenant has to stay in the apartment in order to actually keep the money. So a tenant that may no longer be able to afford a rental and would rather move to a cheaper place is instead forced to stay in a place in order to maintain their rental assistance.

And some landlords are refusing to take the money because they'd rather evict the tenant so that they can raise the rent.

The other part of the problem is that the money was doled out to the states based simply on population, not on the number of renters or cost of renting in a state. So the money isn't being distributed as well as it could've been.

A lot of problems, but this rests solely on the states who are implementing it who are creating giant barriers to actually receive the money and letting landlords opt to deny rental assistance to their tenants. It honestly may be too late to turn this around.

Yeah, the states are doing their darndest to make a UBI look better and better.

[Villanelle]

Thirteen US soldiers just died while trying to rescue Afghani civilians of whom another one hundred and fifty also died while being rescued and everyone over there is still working under the threat of another attack.
I think it is quite disrespectful to be oh so concerned about who is to blame for the ordeal so many are going through rather than to look at what concretely can be done to accommodate the refugees and counter the resistance to receive them, which is already forming.
That would also be a good way to signal to the service members who are risking their lives that their sacrifice is appreciated.

Thankfully humans can hold more than one thing at a time in their heart and their head.

And before you play the "respect our service members" card on me, know that I'm the granddaughter and daughter of career service members.  And I also have dinner with one nearly every night, and more of my close friends than not are active duty, many of whom served in Afghanistan, including one who just got back to the US a few months ago.  Oh, and many of them are very actively opining on the situation as well. 

I've also sat home, staring at my front door, fighting tears and hoping there's no knock at my door, while knowing that *someone* I know will be getting the same visit those 13 service members' families have gotten in the last day.

I appreciate and understand their service and sacrifice, and the sacrifices of their families, far more than most Americans could ever even comprehend.  So please don't talk to me about how it's disrespectful to service members to have and discussion an opinion on what has happened, especially in an unrelated discussion forum. 

[nereo]

Thirteen US soldiers just died while trying to rescue Afghani civilians of whom another one hundred and fifty also died while being rescued and everyone over there is still working under the threat of another attack.
I think it is quite disrespectful to be oh so concerned about who is to blame for the ordeal so many are going through rather than to look at what concretely can be done to accommodate the refugees and counter the resistance to receive them, which is already forming.
That would also be a good way to signal to the service members who are risking their lives that their sacrifice is appreciated.

Thankfully humans can hold more than one thing at a time in their heart and their head.

And before you play the "respect our service members" card on me, know that I'm the granddaughter and daughter of career service members.  And I also have dinner with one nearly every night, and more of my close friends than not are active duty, many of whom served in Afghanistan, including one who just got back to the US a few months ago.  Oh, and many of them are very actively opining on the situation as well. 

I've also sat home, staring at my front door, fighting tears and hoping there's no knock at my door, while knowing that *someone* I know will be getting the same visit those 13 service members' families have gotten in the last day.

I appreciate and understand their service and sacrifice, and the sacrifices of their families, far more than most Americans could ever even comprehend.  So please don't talk to me about how it's disrespectful to service members to have and discussion an opinion on what has happened, especially in an unrelated discussion forum.

Indeed - one can support our service members and still oppose the mission.

[PeteD01]

Thirteen US soldiers just died while trying to rescue Afghani civilians of whom another one hundred and fifty also died while being rescued and everyone over there is still working under the threat of another attack.
I think it is quite disrespectful to be oh so concerned about who is to blame for the ordeal so many are going through rather than to look at what concretely can be done to accommodate the refugees and counter the resistance to receive them, which is already forming.
That would also be a good way to signal to the service members who are risking their lives that their sacrifice is appreciated.

Thankfully humans can hold more than one thing at a time in their heart and their head.

And before you play the "respect our service members" card on me, know that I'm the granddaughter and daughter of career service members.  And I also have dinner with one nearly every night, and more of my close friends than not are active duty, many of whom served in Afghanistan, including one who just got back to the US a few months ago.  Oh, and many of them are very actively opining on the situation as well. 

I've also sat home, staring at my front door, fighting tears and hoping there's no knock at my door, while knowing that *someone* I know will be getting the same visit those 13 service members' families have gotten in the last day.

I appreciate and understand their service and sacrifice, and the sacrifices of their families, far more than most Americans could ever even comprehend.  So please don't talk to me about how it's disrespectful to service members to have and discussion an opinion on what has happened, especially in an unrelated discussion forum.

I am not criticizing you and I am sorry if I have inadvertently offended you.
What I am really pissed off about is the fact that virtually the entire coverage in the news is about the shitstorm of who is to blame and whatnot and what will most certainly be sorted out at leisure some time in the future. Until then it is all hot air and nothing more than the usual outrage machine which has been going for way too long.
All this distraction is going on while possibly the largest humanitarian airlift ever is being carried out under extremely difficult and dangerous conditions.
I was a VA physician for many years and I can assure you that the consequences of this operation will be felt for many years to come by those who are on the ground doing the hard work. There is, however, something different about this operation because it is obviously a gigantic rescue mission which clearly everybody could support. This actually would make a difference not only for the rescuers but also for the rescued who will all emerge traumatized from these events.
But no, it all has to be drowned out by those who chose to be outraged right at this time after they had ignored the war in Afghanistan for the last twenty years.
If they had been paying attention, they would have realized that an outcome like we see now or something similar was all but inevitable.
You are right that humans can hold two things in their mind at the same time but most won't.
Again, I have no issues with what you are saying but I firmly believe that the discussion about who is to blame for what will continue to overshadow the achievements of the people in Kabul right now.

edit: I just found this clip. I think he gives a pretty reasonable assessment aof the issues, although I personally think that there was reason to expect an immediate collapse of the government - but who am I and it will take years to sort out anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXqhfSn8aTE

[PDXTabs]

I have to say, the withdrawal in Afghanistan, has gone worse than expected. It's terrible. However, given the externalities, I'm asking, is there anything that we as the government, could have done differently to make it go better?

A lot of the heat in the international press is because Italy, Turkey, and the UK wanted to stay on the ground but they couldn't because they needed the USA to at least provide air support. I think that in Europe/NATO they thought that Biden would be a return to normalcy and in their mind this is a betrayal, especially when he said stuff like "We will not conduct a hasty rush to the exit. We'll do it responsibly, deliberately and safely. And we will do it in full co-ordination with our allies and partners."

Along those lines, Turkey has the second largest military in NATO, and they're currently doing some pretty shady stuff in Armenia/Azerbaijan/Syria/Libya. I think that the US backing out looks like a leadership void in Europe. I fully expect Germany/France to eventually fill that gap, but I'm not a geopolitical expert. If that's what the US wants, that's fine. We don't have to be world police, but I'm sure that Putin is smiling.

It seems to me, unfortunately once the time table was announced and agreed by the previous administration, it seems to have given the current administration very little wiggle room.

They had all the wiggle room they wanted, it was a new administration with multilateral backing, that's how they pushed it out for four months.

[Radagast]

Does anyone (outside of unfortunate Afghans) still pay attention to or care about what happens in Afghanistan? It seemed pretty important 15 and 20 years ago when my friends were getting sent there and it seemed something useful might happen, but I tuned that shit out decades ago. There is not a single thing Biden could have done in Afghanistan that would have made me care or judge him one way or the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgkIqU15WO0
(^The Doors The End)

This is the end...
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end

[Tyler durden]

Does anyone (outside of unfortunate Afghans) still pay attention to or care about what happens in Afghanistan? It seemed pretty important 15 and 20 years ago when my friends were getting sent there and it seemed something useful might happen, but I tuned that shit out decades ago. There is not a single thing Biden could have done in Afghanistan that would have made me care or judge him one way or the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgkIqU15WO0
(^The Doors The End)

This is the end...
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end

I would have probably agreed with you up until a few weeks ago that nothing he did in Afghanistan would have made me judge him to harshly. If he stayed and followed what his last 3 predecessors did, I wouldnt have liked it but would have thought he was doing the same thing they all do.

If he ended the war, as was negotiated before he came in, I would have given him a little more credit on following through on what he promised as well and wrapping up this over seas mess.

But the way he choose to end it, resulting in chaos and bloodshed is certainly worthy of our judgement and scorn. Add on to that he left behind Americans to fend for themselves.

https://apnews.com/article/europe-afghanistan-3684fd02c4bdc7c062cc7a141f720e72

WASHINGTON (AP) — With the final stream of U.S. cargo planes soaring over the peaks of the Hindu Kush, President Joe Biden fulfilled a campaign promise to end America’s longest war, one it could not win.

But as the war ended with a chaotic, bloody evacuation that left stranded hundreds of U.S. citizens and thousands of Afghans who had aided the American war effort, the president kept notably out of sight. He left it to a senior military commander and his secretary of state to tell Americans about the final moments of a conflict that ended in resounding American defeat.

And after he said this...

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-troops-stay-americans-afghanistan-biden-abc-news/story?id=79507932

"But if we don't," Stephanopoulos said, "the troops will stay --"

"If -- if we don't," Biden interrupted, "We'll determine at the time who's left."

"And?" Stephanopoulos asked.

"And if you're American force -- if there's American citizens left, we're gonna stay to get them all out," Biden said.

[PeteD01]

Here is a decent article to put the anachronistic late war in Afghanistan into perspective.
Quote from the article:

"The chaotic situation (during the final days of the withdrawal) has caused a bout of national soul-searching in the US, as it finally brought home just how feckless the Afghan “nation-building effort” has been all along. But Biden rigorously distinguished the counter-terrorism he always planned to continue from the withdrawal he finished."




https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/31/how-the-us-created-a-world-of-endless-war

[former player]

The end in Afghanistan was chaotic and bloody and badly managed but western citizens who were not Nato or diplomatic staff have been under a "get out now" advisory since April at the latest: any western citizen who ignored that has some responsibility for putting their own welfare at risk and also some responsibility for taking up evacuation spaces that could have gone elsewhere.

The Afghan citizens who helped the west but weren't given visas early enough and are now under threat from the taliban and isis-K are the ones who had no good choices and have been so badly let down.

[gentmach]

Transcript of Biden's call to Afghanistan President has been released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/

"In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”

[wenchsenior]

Transcript of Biden's call to Afghanistan President has been released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/

"In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”

That's hilarious, and it tracks with all the previous administrations' constant lying PR about how 'things are stable and/or improving...we just need a troop surge/increased funding/a little more time to train the Afghan army'.  I was listening to a reporter whose team had finally accessed all these internal state dept and military memos etc re: the Afghanistan war dating all the way back to the invasion, and there was widespread internal agreement that the whole thing was a complete hopeless shit-show with no chance to truly nation build or stabilize the place (without permanent American/Nato occupation) as early as the 3rd year of the war. Year 3 out of 20!  But nevertheless politicians of both parties spouted the same bullshit for decades, and poured pointless money into the place.

One thing I'll give Trump credit for...he helped set a timeline for getting the fuck out. And Biden stuck to it.

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

[GuitarStv]

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

The thing is, the US has done it properly before.  Germany and Japan both were great successes.  It's just a lot of work and effort to get it right.

(Also helps if you win the war and stop the fighting to focus on doing the nation building.)

[wenchsenior]

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

The thing is, the US has done it properly before.  Germany and Japan both were great successes.  It's just a lot of work and effort to get it right.

(Also helps if you win the war and stop the fighting to focus on doing the nation building.)

Sure, but both of those nations had likely decent economic prospects and a history of centralized gov't, neither of which Afghanistan had or has.

[Cool Friend]

Transcript of Biden's call to Afghanistan President has been released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/

"In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”

That's hilarious, and it tracks with all the previous administrations' constant lying PR about how 'things are stable and/or improving...we just need a troop surge/increased funding/a little more time to train the Afghan army'.  I was listening to a reporter whose team had finally accessed all these internal state dept and military memos etc re: the Afghanistan war dating all the way back to the invasion, and there was widespread internal agreement that the whole thing was a complete hopeless shit-show with no chance to truly nation build or stabilize the place (without permanent American/Nato occupation) as early as the 3rd year of the war. Year 3 out of 20!  But nevertheless politicians of both parties spouted the same bullshit for decades, and poured pointless money into the place.

One thing I'll give Trump credit for...he helped set a timeline for getting the fuck out. And Biden stuck to it.

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

Well, at least we didn't nation-build some infrastructure or nationalized health care at home. Bullet dodged.

[GuitarStv]

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

The thing is, the US has done it properly before.  Germany and Japan both were great successes.  It's just a lot of work and effort to get it right.

(Also helps if you win the war and stop the fighting to focus on doing the nation building.)

Sure, but both of those nations had likely decent economic prospects and a history of centralized gov't, neither of which Afghanistan had or has.

Economic prospects weren't so terrible.  Afghanistan has more than 1.8 billion barrels of oil (as well as fair quantities of gold, copper, lithium, uranium, iron ore, cobalt, and natural gas).  Not to mention the opium fields.  :P

But yes, the loose and decentralized nature of the Afghan government was always a hurdle.

[sixwings]

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

The thing is, the US has done it properly before.  Germany and Japan both were great successes.  It's just a lot of work and effort to get it right.

(Also helps if you win the war and stop the fighting to focus on doing the nation building.)

Sure, but both of those nations had likely decent economic prospects and a history of centralized gov't, neither of which Afghanistan had or has.

Economic prospects weren't so terrible.  Afghanistan has more than 1.8 billion barrels of oil (as well as fair quantities of gold, copper, lithium, uranium, iron ore, cobalt, and natural gas).  Not to mention the opium fields.  :P

But yes, the loose and decentralized nature of the Afghan government was always a hurdle.

Both Japan and Germany were also a pretty homogenous country and population with a generally shared culture and identity. Afghanistan is like 1000 really tiny countries, each with their own culture, religion, identity, warlords, etc. It's not an apples to apples country comparison.

[GuitarStv]

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

The thing is, the US has done it properly before.  Germany and Japan both were great successes.  It's just a lot of work and effort to get it right.

(Also helps if you win the war and stop the fighting to focus on doing the nation building.)

Sure, but both of those nations had likely decent economic prospects and a history of centralized gov't, neither of which Afghanistan had or has.

Economic prospects weren't so terrible.  Afghanistan has more than 1.8 billion barrels of oil (as well as fair quantities of gold, copper, lithium, uranium, iron ore, cobalt, and natural gas).  Not to mention the opium fields.  :P

But yes, the loose and decentralized nature of the Afghan government was always a hurdle.

Both Japan and Germany were also a pretty homogenous country and population with a generally shared culture and identity. Afghanistan is like 1000 really tiny countries, each with their own culture, religion, identity, warlords, etc. It's not an apples to apples country comparison.

Sure, that's true.

No country comparison is apples to apples.  Both Japan and Germany were pretty wildly different in terms of culture, habit, diet, geography, climate, natural resources, education, and even physical size/weight of residents.  Rebuilding any country is a huge and difficult undertaking, but it can be done properly through planning and careful consideration . . . or it can be done in name only.

The latter sucks.

[Tyler durden]

Transcript of Biden's call to Afghanistan President has been released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/

"In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”

That's hilarious, and it tracks with all the previous administrations' constant lying PR about how 'things are stable and/or improving...we just need a troop surge/increased funding/a little more time to train the Afghan army'.  I was listening to a reporter whose team had finally accessed all these internal state dept and military memos etc re: the Afghanistan war dating all the way back to the invasion, and there was widespread internal agreement that the whole thing was a complete hopeless shit-show with no chance to truly nation build or stabilize the place (without permanent American/Nato occupation) as early as the 3rd year of the war. Year 3 out of 20!  But nevertheless politicians of both parties spouted the same bullshit for decades, and poured pointless money into the place.

One thing I'll give Trump credit for...he helped set a timeline for getting the fuck out. And Biden stuck to it.

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

My read on this isn't so charitable. So he knew full well the collapse was imminent yet pressured the Afghan government to "fake" like they were winning? All the while he was preaching Kabul would not fall so fast. Did they have any impact on people who were on the verge of leaving but decided to stay? maybe they stayed longer thinking they had more time... why would he do this, i'm not seeing any upside politically or practically.

I hope the news reports stories like this daily until every last person who wants out gets out.

https://abc7news.com/society/exclusive-3-year-old-california-boy-stranded-in-afghanistan/10990233/

Sadly most of the country will likely just forget ( to some degree) about this as life goes on. Close to half the country will attempt to bury this sad story down the memory hole as its impossible to defend.

[wenchsenior]

Transcript of Biden's call to Afghanistan President has been released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/

"In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”

That's hilarious, and it tracks with all the previous administrations' constant lying PR about how 'things are stable and/or improving...we just need a troop surge/increased funding/a little more time to train the Afghan army'.  I was listening to a reporter whose team had finally accessed all these internal state dept and military memos etc re: the Afghanistan war dating all the way back to the invasion, and there was widespread internal agreement that the whole thing was a complete hopeless shit-show with no chance to truly nation build or stabilize the place (without permanent American/Nato occupation) as early as the 3rd year of the war. Year 3 out of 20!  But nevertheless politicians of both parties spouted the same bullshit for decades, and poured pointless money into the place.

One thing I'll give Trump credit for...he helped set a timeline for getting the fuck out. And Biden stuck to it.

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

My read on this isn't so charitable. So he knew full well the collapse was imminent yet pressured the Afghan government to "fake" like they were winning? All the while he was preaching Kabul would not fall so fast. Did they have any impact on people who were on the verge of leaving but decided to stay? maybe they stayed longer thinking they had more time... why would he do this, i'm not seeing any upside politically or practically.

I hope the news reports stories like this daily until every last person who wants out gets out.

https://abc7news.com/society/exclusive-3-year-old-california-boy-stranded-in-afghanistan/10990233/

Sadly most of the country will likely just forget ( to some degree) about this as life goes on. Close to half the country will attempt to bury this sad story down the memory hole as its impossible to defend.

Not sure how I was being charitable. My point was, the prevailing opinion in the state dept and military from very shortly after the invasion was that the American-propped gov't would collapse very soon upon the U.S. getting out.  And yet everyone constantly spun the situation as being far better and more stable than it was. Biden is no different in THAT regard.  Some of the sickly humorous details I heard from the internal memo reporting was that the bulk of the Afghans that the U.S. military was planning on training 'in the image of U.S. forces' were totally illiterate and couldn't count above 4! 

Exactly how soon the gov't would collapse was apparently debated, and it looks like the Biden admin believed they had several months before collapse, which was clearly a massive fuck-up. As to processing refugees/political emigrants, the Trump admin had set the deadline, but then also stalled or stopped processing all the visas for most of the people who wanted to get out (which was already hugely backlogged)...apparently this was sometimes through direct obstruction of processing, but there were also massive budget cuts to personnel and infrastructure PLUS a huge reduction in immigration caps. So by the time Biden got in and they attempted to hugely ramp up visa processing, they already had a huge backlog of people who wanted to get out who were never going to be processed in time to meet the deadline.  However, I believe the Biden admin has not acted to increase immigration caps (so much for opening the borders LOL).  So that is on the Biden admin, for sure.  At this point I heard about 100K people still hypothetically might want to get out, and at the rate visas are currently being processed (which is much faster than under Trump), it would take years to process them all. A lot of those people are fucked.

It's a clusterfuck. And it is a clusterfuck shared by an INCREDIBLE number of people in positions of power, starting with the decision to go in and nation build in the first place.

[PeteD01]

My read on this isn't so charitable. So he knew full well the collapse was imminent yet pressured the Afghan government to "fake" like they were winning? All the while he was preaching Kabul would not fall so fast. Did they have any impact on people who were on the verge of leaving but decided to stay? maybe they stayed longer thinking they had more time... why would he do this, i'm not seeing any upside politically or practically.

I can see a practical upside. They needed a window of time to get the airport perimeter  established and then let the Taliban move in to have a chance to etablish security before the crowds would show up.
Just a thought.

[nereo]

We went into Afghanistan right when me and my cohort were enlisting age.  Our military has been there in combat my entire adult life. I’ve been hearing about how much of a quagmire the entire conflict was since Rumsfeld was Sec. Defense.  I can’t over-emphasize how released I am that we are finally out.

[Tyler durden]

Agreed with above, so happy we are out. I disagree with a whole host of things Biden wants to do and I gave him no credit for the way this Afghan pullout was handled. Plenty of blame on him for how this went down.

However, for the next 3 1/2 years there will be a constant pull from the Military Industrial Complex and like minded Hawks in congress to push us into some other war/confrontation.

Who do we have to police the world for next ? Taiwan ? Ukraine?

I will give Biden enormous credit if he can keep us from wading into another overseas boondoggle. The pressure will be immense. China seems like the biggest threat on the horizon. Without our presence and potential retaliation they would probably swallow up Taiwan tonight and before long their sights will turn to the Aussies and Kiwis... for now and for the forseeable future that can be someone elses problem.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/02/627249909/australia-and-new-zealand-are-ground-zero-for-chinese-influence

[nereo]

It’s interesting you mention New Zealand’s relationship with China. Not too long ago there was a forum member from New Zealand who emphasized her country’s close relationship with China, yet seemingly had no concern over various Chinese actions (largely because “America is worse” - hardly a great justification IMO).

I have no idea where the US military goes from here. The eternal optimist in me hopes we have entered that blissful stage where our stomach for direct and drawn out conflicts has dwindled and we stay largely peaceful for a time. It seems that’s been our pattern for the last couple centuries. Or you could be right that the Hawks and MIC will push us into another boondoggle.  As they say, when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - and we’ve spent trillions over the last deacade making a very big hammer, often at the expense of everything else (e.g. soft power, diplomacy, alliances).

[Travis]

I have no idea where the US military goes from here. The eternal optimist in me hopes we have entered that blissful stage where our stomach for direct and drawn out conflicts has dwindled and we stay largely peaceful for a time. It seems that’s been our pattern for the last couple centuries. Or you could be right that the Hawks and MIC will push us into another boondoggle.  As they say, when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - and we’ve spent trillions over the last deacade making a very big hammer, often at the expense of everything else (e.g. soft power, diplomacy, alliances).

Shades of 1992 and 2015.  The left side of the Democrat Party will push for cuts because they pinky swear we'll never get into another war, and the Republican Party will pull out the "soft on communism/terrorism/you don't love America" tropes and take back some votes during the midterms that Trump lost.  Here's the problem. They're all correct, and they're all part of the problem.  People like Lindsay Graham have never met a foreign policy problem they didn't think couldn't be solved without an airstrike, and the Democrat's reputation for avoiding war at all costs is well earned.  Bush Sr. cut the Army substantially in 1991, and Clinton cut it even further in 1994, only for our peacekeeping portfolio to grow exponentially right up until 9/11. Bush Jr. threatened Iran and North Korea and then didn't back it up ensuring they'd double down against us while we were stuck in Iraq.  Obama teased Romney for saying fears of Russia were a Cold War bogeyman only for Russia to start a war with Ukraine a couple years later. Our belated and half-hearted actions in Syria were also on Obama's watch.  Trump didn't start any new conflicts, but that's because he simply didn't want to make any foreign policy decisions if he could help it.  In 2005 the Army told Congress that we'd need full maintenance funding for two years after Iraq was over in order to baseline all of our weapons.  Instead we got the Budget Control Act and shut downs leading to an entire year of almost no maintenance and a couple years of backlogs. 

The annual meeting of the Association of the United States Army (read: if the MIC had a Greek fraternity) is next month. There's never been one where the assembled contractors, members of Congress, and active and retired Generals didn't call for endless funding for everything under the sun.  Every military leader who bears responsibility for Afghanistan for the last 20 years will probably be there.  The Army has known for three years that it can't afford the people it has and the equipment it needs - like actually needs.  The nation's focus is going to shift towards the Navy for a few years for which the Army will pay the bill.  The services will bicker with each other right in front of Congress over their share of the pie and show how unqualified we are to spend money responsibly. Of course Congress will be right there with us abetting and probably forcing us to continue the waste and fraud.  I need simple durable hammers, but what will be pushed for instead will be a gold-plated power drill that will double in cost from design to purchase and they'll declare it the key to winning the war (they'll use the present tense) against China.

[FIPurpose]

I have no idea where the US military goes from here. The eternal optimist in me hopes we have entered that blissful stage where our stomach for direct and drawn out conflicts has dwindled and we stay largely peaceful for a time. It seems that’s been our pattern for the last couple centuries. Or you could be right that the Hawks and MIC will push us into another boondoggle.  As they say, when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - and we’ve spent trillions over the last deacade making a very big hammer, often at the expense of everything else (e.g. soft power, diplomacy, alliances).

Shades of 1992 and 2015.  The left side of the Democrat Party will push for cuts because they pinky swear we'll never get into another war, and the Republican Party will pull out the "soft on communism/terrorism/you don't love America" tropes and take back some votes during the midterms that Trump lost.  Here's the problem. They're all correct, and they're all part of the problem.  People like Lindsay Graham have never met a foreign policy problem they didn't think couldn't be solved without an airstrike, and the Democrat's reputation for avoiding war at all costs is well earned.  Bush Sr. cut the Army substantially in 1991, and Clinton cut it even further in 1994, only for our peacekeeping portfolio to grow exponentially right up until 9/11. Bush Jr. threatened Iran and North Korea and then didn't back it up ensuring they'd double down against us while we were stuck in Iraq.  Obama teased Romney for saying fears of Russia were a Cold War bogeyman only for Russia to start a war with Ukraine a couple years later. Our belated and half-hearted actions in Syria were also on Obama's watch.  Trump didn't start any new conflicts, but that's because he simply didn't want to make any foreign policy decisions if he could help it. In 2005 the Army told Congress that we'd need full maintenance funding for two years after Iraq was over in order to baseline all of our weapons.  Instead we got the Budget Control Act and shut downs leading to an entire year of almost no maintenance and a couple years of backlogs. 

The annual meeting of the Association of the United States Army (read: if the MIC had a Greek fraternity) is next month. There's never been one where the assembled contractors, members of Congress, and active and retired Generals didn't call for endless funding for everything under the sun.  Every military leader who bears responsibility for Afghanistan for the last 20 years will probably be there.  The Army has known for three years that it can't afford the people it has and the equipment it needs - like actually needs.  The nation's focus is going to shift towards the Navy for a few years for which the Army will pay the bill.  The services will bicker with each other right in front of Congress over their share of the pie and show how unqualified we are to spend money responsibly. Of course Congress will be right there with us abetting and probably forcing us to continue the waste and fraud.  I need simple durable hammers, but what will be pushed for instead will be a gold-plated power drill that will double in cost from design to purchase and they'll declare it the key to winning the war (they'll use the present tense) against China.

This is the person I think you glossed over a bit too much on. Trump had record bombings on Yemen and Afghanistan. Trump ran on turning down the wars, but in reality he was probably the biggest war monger president we've had since Johnson.

[Travis]

I have no idea where the US military goes from here. The eternal optimist in me hopes we have entered that blissful stage where our stomach for direct and drawn out conflicts has dwindled and we stay largely peaceful for a time. It seems that’s been our pattern for the last couple centuries. Or you could be right that the Hawks and MIC will push us into another boondoggle.  As they say, when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - and we’ve spent trillions over the last deacade making a very big hammer, often at the expense of everything else (e.g. soft power, diplomacy, alliances).

Shades of 1992 and 2015.  The left side of the Democrat Party will push for cuts because they pinky swear we'll never get into another war, and the Republican Party will pull out the "soft on communism/terrorism/you don't love America" tropes and take back some votes during the midterms that Trump lost.  Here's the problem. They're all correct, and they're all part of the problem.  People like Lindsay Graham have never met a foreign policy problem they didn't think couldn't be solved without an airstrike, and the Democrat's reputation for avoiding war at all costs is well earned.  Bush Sr. cut the Army substantially in 1991, and Clinton cut it even further in 1994, only for our peacekeeping portfolio to grow exponentially right up until 9/11. Bush Jr. threatened Iran and North Korea and then didn't back it up ensuring they'd double down against us while we were stuck in Iraq.  Obama teased Romney for saying fears of Russia were a Cold War bogeyman only for Russia to start a war with Ukraine a couple years later. Our belated and half-hearted actions in Syria were also on Obama's watch.  Trump didn't start any new conflicts, but that's because he simply didn't want to make any foreign policy decisions if he could help it. In 2005 the Army told Congress that we'd need full maintenance funding for two years after Iraq was over in order to baseline all of our weapons.  Instead we got the Budget Control Act and shut downs leading to an entire year of almost no maintenance and a couple years of backlogs. 

The annual meeting of the Association of the United States Army (read: if the MIC had a Greek fraternity) is next month. There's never been one where the assembled contractors, members of Congress, and active and retired Generals didn't call for endless funding for everything under the sun.  Every military leader who bears responsibility for Afghanistan for the last 20 years will probably be there.  The Army has known for three years that it can't afford the people it has and the equipment it needs - like actually needs.  The nation's focus is going to shift towards the Navy for a few years for which the Army will pay the bill.  The services will bicker with each other right in front of Congress over their share of the pie and show how unqualified we are to spend money responsibly. Of course Congress will be right there with us abetting and probably forcing us to continue the waste and fraud.  I need simple durable hammers, but what will be pushed for instead will be a gold-plated power drill that will double in cost from design to purchase and they'll declare it the key to winning the war (they'll use the present tense) against China.

This is the person I think you glossed over a bit too much on. Trump had record bombings on Yemen and Afghanistan. Trump ran on turning down the wars, but in reality he was probably the biggest war monger president we've had since Johnson.

Nereo's question was whether we were getting into something new. I could have mentioned how Obama had a record number of Pakistan airstrikes over Bush, but that wasn't the point. To me one of Trump's biggest faults in this subject is he liked to talk himself up as this big badass who literally wanted to salute parades of tanks like a North Korean dictator, but was desperate to avoid making important geopolitical decisions that didn't affect his ego. About the only ground-breaking thing he really did was try to pull us out of allied nations just to spite the EU and NATO.

[former player]

Texas, aided by Trump's Supreme Court, in a gross abuse of women's rights has just shut down abortion provision. I bet Biden will do and say nothing.

Shame on the USA.

[gentmach]

Texas, aided by Trump's Supreme Court, in a gross abuse of women's rights has just shut down abortion provision. I bet Biden will do and say nothing.

Shame on the USA.

Biden's administration is paralyzed at the moment. Nor can Dems say "My body, my choice" when demanding vaccine mandates.

Transcript of Biden's call to Afghanistan President has been released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/

"In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”

That's hilarious, and it tracks with all the previous administrations' constant lying PR about how 'things are stable and/or improving...we just need a troop surge/increased funding/a little more time to train the Afghan army'.  I was listening to a reporter whose team had finally accessed all these internal state dept and military memos etc re: the Afghanistan war dating all the way back to the invasion, and there was widespread internal agreement that the whole thing was a complete hopeless shit-show with no chance to truly nation build or stabilize the place (without permanent American/Nato occupation) as early as the 3rd year of the war. Year 3 out of 20!  But nevertheless politicians of both parties spouted the same bullshit for decades, and poured pointless money into the place.

One thing I'll give Trump credit for...he helped set a timeline for getting the fuck out. And Biden stuck to it.

America just never never never learns about 'nation-building'.

My read on this isn't so charitable. So he knew full well the collapse was imminent yet pressured the Afghan government to "fake" like they were winning? All the while he was preaching Kabul would not fall so fast. Did they have any impact on people who were on the verge of leaving but decided to stay? maybe they stayed longer thinking they had more time... why would he do this, i'm not seeing any upside politically or practically.

I hope the news reports stories like this daily until every last person who wants out gets out.

https://abc7news.com/society/exclusive-3-year-old-california-boy-stranded-in-afghanistan/10990233/

Sadly most of the country will likely just forget ( to some degree) about this as life goes on. Close to half the country will attempt to bury this sad story down the memory hole as its impossible to defend.

Not sure how I was being charitable. My point was, the prevailing opinion in the state dept and military from very shortly after the invasion was that the American-propped gov't would collapse very soon upon the U.S. getting out.  And yet everyone constantly spun the situation as being far better and more stable than it was. Biden is no different in THAT regard.  Some of the sickly humorous details I heard from the internal memo reporting was that the bulk of the Afghans that the U.S. military was planning on training 'in the image of U.S. forces' were totally illiterate and couldn't count above 4! 

Exactly how soon the gov't would collapse was apparently debated, and it looks like the Biden admin believed they had several months before collapse, which was clearly a massive fuck-up. As to processing refugees/political emigrants, the Trump admin had set the deadline, but then also stalled or stopped processing all the visas for most of the people who wanted to get out (which was already hugely backlogged)...apparently this was sometimes through direct obstruction of processing, but there were also massive budget cuts to personnel and infrastructure PLUS a huge reduction in immigration caps. So by the time Biden got in and they attempted to hugely ramp up visa processing, they already had a huge backlog of people who wanted to get out who were never going to be processed in time to meet the deadline.  However, I believe the Biden admin has not acted to increase immigration caps (so much for opening the borders LOL).  So that is on the Biden admin, for sure.  At this point I heard about 100K people still hypothetically might want to get out, and at the rate visas are currently being processed (which is much faster than under Trump), it would take years to process them all. A lot of those people are fucked.

It's a clusterfuck. And it is a clusterfuck shared by an INCREDIBLE number of people in positions of power, starting with the decision to go in and nation build in the first place.

Were they talking about the Afghanistan Papers?

[nereo]

Biden's administration is paralyzed at the moment. Nor can Dems say "My body, my choice" when demanding vaccine mandates.

I don’t see how someone can equate a vaccine mandate to having the choice for an abortion.

The unvaccinated are prolonging this pandemic and fueling its spread - put simply hundreds are dying daily and thousands more are getting seriously ill in the US primarily because of the unvaccinated.

Pregnancy is a significant risk and health cost to the mother.  Terminating the pregnancy directly impacts the mother and (if you wish to make the ‘every fetus is a person’ moral argument) the developing embryo/fetus. My elderly grandparents, my immune compromised sibling, myself and others are not at risk when a woman has an abortion.

This is one of the worst false equivalencies I’ve heard in a long time.

[gentmach]

Biden's administration is paralyzed at the moment. Nor can Dems say "My body, my choice" when demanding vaccine mandates.

I don’t see how someone can equate a vaccine mandate to having the choice for an abortion.

The unvaccinated are prolonging this pandemic and fueling its spread - put simply hundreds are dying daily and thousands more are getting seriously ill in the US primarily because of the unvaccinated.

Pregnancy is a significant risk and health cost to the mother.  Terminating the pregnancy directly impacts the mother and (if you wish to make the ‘every fetus is a person’ moral argument) the developing embryo/fetus. My elderly grandparents, my immune compromised sibling, myself and others are not at risk when a woman has an abortion.

This is one of the worst false equivalencies I’ve heard in a long time.

The point being that the government can tell you what you can and cannot do with your body. And it isn't YOU that the Dems are worried about, it is moderates that would see that the idea is selectively applied.

[former player]

Biden's administration is paralyzed at the moment. Nor can Dems say "My body, my choice" when demanding vaccine mandates.

I don’t see how someone can equate a vaccine mandate to having the choice for an abortion.

The unvaccinated are prolonging this pandemic and fueling its spread - put simply hundreds are dying daily and thousands more are getting seriously ill in the US primarily because of the unvaccinated.

Pregnancy is a significant risk and health cost to the mother.  Terminating the pregnancy directly impacts the mother and (if you wish to make the ‘every fetus is a person’ moral argument) the developing embryo/fetus. My elderly grandparents, my immune compromised sibling, myself and others are not at risk when a woman has an abortion.

This is one of the worst false equivalencies I’ve heard in a long time.

The point being that the government can tell you what you can and cannot do with your body. And it isn't YOU that the Dems are worried about, it is moderates that would see that the idea is selectively applied.

It's not selective application: both vaccines and abortions are public health issues.

[gentmach]

Biden's administration is paralyzed at the moment. Nor can Dems say "My body, my choice" when demanding vaccine mandates.

I don’t see how someone can equate a vaccine mandate to having the choice for an abortion.

The unvaccinated are prolonging this pandemic and fueling its spread - put simply hundreds are dying daily and thousands more are getting seriously ill in the US primarily because of the unvaccinated.

Pregnancy is a significant risk and health cost to the mother.  Terminating the pregnancy directly impacts the mother and (if you wish to make the ‘every fetus is a person’ moral argument) the developing embryo/fetus. My elderly grandparents, my immune compromised sibling, myself and others are not at risk when a woman has an abortion.

This is one of the worst false equivalencies I’ve heard in a long time.

The point being that the government can tell you what you can and cannot do with your body. And it isn't YOU that the Dems are worried about, it is moderates that would see that the idea is selectively applied.

It's not selective application: both vaccines and abortions are public health issues.

Yes. They are. Vaccine mandates make sense as long as you start with the assumption "there is a global pandemic." The way that masks guidelines have been handled and how vaccinated can still spread the disease (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/30/1022867219/cdc-study-provincetown-delta-vaccinated-breakthrough-mask-guidance) has moderates doubting things now.

Why rock the boat with them if they don't need to?