Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )

[MustacheAndaHalf]

My assumption is that President Biden was working at the Penn-Biden think tank when he became the Democrats nominee for President.  I've heard some classified documents relate to Ukraine, suggesting they were recent, not a decade old.  I infer that President Biden had legitimate access to the documents he possessed as a candidate running for President months/weeks before the election.  I assume he did not properly return the documents he had a right to when he should have returned them.

President Trump took home top secret documents and refused to give them back.  He had zero right to hold the documents after leaving office, had no right to deny their existence or refuse to return them.  But I doubt media will care about nuance, so ultimately this could become a war over dueling mislanded documents.

If President Biden saw the news about the FBI searching Mar-a-Lago, and did not consider which documents he might still possess, that would be a fair criticism.  Given what he knew, why didn't someone uncover these documents sooner?  But that's also probably useless nuance in this environment.

In multi-party systems, when two parties relentlessly criticize each other, they pave the way for other parties to win elections.

[PDXTabs]

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

But why be so partisan about it? I'm fine if Clinton, Trump, and Biden all share the same jail cell.

[GuitarStv]

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

But why be so partisan about it? I'm fine if Clinton, Trump, and Biden all share the same jail cell.

What is Clinton going to jail for?  Could you be very specific?  Because the whole email thing turned out to not actually involve anything illegal in the end (there was some poor computer security, but certainly nothing nefarious found).

[PDXTabs]

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

But why be so partisan about it? I'm fine if Clinton, Trump, and Biden all share the same jail cell.

What is Clinton going to jail for?  Could you be very specific?  Because the whole email thing turned out to not actually involve anything illegal in the end (there was some poor computer security, but certainly nothing nefarious found).

That's not true. The FBI has a whole report about this that you can read here: https://vault.fbi.gov/hillary-r.-clinton

They ultimately recommended against prosecution which is different than saying that no crime occurred. That is, for example, what happened with Matt Gaetz.

[Michael in ABQ]

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

But why be so partisan about it? I'm fine if Clinton, Trump, and Biden all share the same jail cell.

What is Clinton going to jail for?  Could you be very specific?  Because the whole email thing turned out to not actually involve anything illegal in the end (there was some poor computer security, but certainly nothing nefarious found).

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

(a)Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

"(a)Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—


There are government systems for storing and transferring classified information (SIPRNET, JWICS, etc.). A private email server is not one of them. Period, full stop. Hillary Clinton knowingly and willfully setup a non-governmental email system. She then used that email system to communicate, transmit, and store classified information. It was illegal, but the FBI chose not to enforce the law in her case because of who she was.

If she was a mid-level manager at the State department and used a Gmail account for all of her official government business (including transmitting classified information), she would have lost her security clearance and probably gone to jail. But because she was a cabinet Secretary - it's not even a slap on the wrist.

[GuitarStv]

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

But why be so partisan about it? I'm fine if Clinton, Trump, and Biden all share the same jail cell.

What is Clinton going to jail for?  Could you be very specific?  Because the whole email thing turned out to not actually involve anything illegal in the end (there was some poor computer security, but certainly nothing nefarious found).

That's not true. The FBI has a whole report about this that you can read here: https://vault.fbi.gov/hillary-r.-clinton

They ultimately recommended against prosecution which is different than saying that no crime occurred. That is, for example, what happened with Matt Gaetz.

Yeah, I read that report.  It's pretty damning.  And I have in the past specifically used it as evidence that Clinton was doing something wrong - I was dead certain of it in fact until someone corrected me.

Remember Comey?  The guy who authorized the report and was heading the investigation into Clinton?  Turns out he screwed up some of the things claimed in the report, which he later corrected:

In his news conference, Comey said “three of those were classified at the time they were sent or received.” At the time, he said one was marked “secret” and two “confidential,” but at a congressional hearing two days later, he said all were marked “confidential,” the lowest form of classification. Moreover, he acknowledged that markings — a (C) — were contained in the body of the text and, contrary to standard practice, there was no header at the top alerting someone that this was classified material. He told lawmakers that without a header, it was “a reasonable inference” that this material was not classified.

“At the end of the process, on June 29, 2017, the Tillerson State Department agreed there was no classified material in the 40 emails cited, but found that her use of a personal email server itself was a security violation, without respect to any particular email,” Kendall said, providing a copy of the June 29, 2017, letter sent by State saying Clinton had “no individual culpability” for the email security violations.

“Though not publicized at the time, these findings were not surprising, since both the Secretary and her State Department colleagues based their emails on the work the Department was doing and did not believe any of the emails contained classified information,” Kendall said. “The Secretary and her colleagues knew how to use (and did) State’s high-side secure system for transmitting classified information and properly marked such communications when appropriate.”

The report was critical of Clinton’s decision to have a private server — “it added an increased degree of risk of compromise as a private system lacks the network monitoring and intrusion detection capabilities of State Department networks.” But the report concluded: “Instances of classified information being deliberately transmitted via unclassified email were the rare exception and resulted in adjudicated security violations. There was no persuasive evidence of systemic, deliberate mishandling of classified information.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/08/hillary-clintons-claim-that-zero-emails-were-marked-classified/

They recommended against prosecution because there was no case and no evidence of wrongdoing.  I really wish that the FBI had issued a correction to their invalid report, because it's very easy to find and really makes the false claims about Clinton easy to believe.  I fell for it.  You did too.

If you want to say that she shouldn't have had a private email server . . . sure!  I agree with that completely.  It's a terrible thing to do from a general security perspective, and from the information that was released Clinton's server was poorly managed on the security front.  But no evidence of illegal actions on her part were found.

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

(a)Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

"(a)Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—


There are government systems for storing and transferring classified information (SIPRNET, JWICS, etc.). A private email server is not one of them. Period, full stop. Hillary Clinton knowingly and willfully setup a non-governmental email system. She then used that email system to communicate, transmit, and store classified information. It was illegal, but the FBI chose not to enforce the law in her case because of who she was.

If she was a mid-level manager at the State department and used a Gmail account for all of her official government business (including transmitting classified information), she would have lost her security clearance and probably gone to jail. But because she was a cabinet Secretary - it's not even a slap on the wrist.

I'd encourage you to read my response above.

The guy investigating Clinton admitted to making mistakes in his investigation, and said that it was reasonable to assume that Clinton and her staffers did not know the information they were handling was classified since it was mislabeled when they got it.  I agree that she absolutely shouldn't have been using an unsecured server to send unclassified government information.  But in each of the hearings and investigations into the matter, Clinton has been found innocent of any wrongdoing regarding the handling of classified documents.  They found that she did use the appropriate systems for storing and transferring classified information when the information has been correctly marked classified.

I'm totally willing to accept that Clinton should go to jail, but am not willing to send her there without evidence of wrong doing.

[GuitarStv]

In Comey's own words about the Clinton email server investigation:

In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice. We do not see those things here.

 - https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system

[caracarn]

Oil production is not the issue, it's refining capacity. That has an even longer lead time because it takes years to build a refinery. Or it would if there was any company willing to. With the current political/regulatory/economic climate there is no desire for any company to take that risk. And only the largest energy companies can afford to build a refinery. There are hundreds of small oil production companies as the barrier to entry is much lower to drill a few wells, or even a few dozen. Building a refinery would probably cost hundreds of millions and take multiple years to get regulatory approval, then a couple years more for actual construction (not to mention the infrastructure needed to operate, i.e. lots of pipelines and a workforce). Refiners are making great margins right now because of the constrained supply - but they know that it won't last forever. As the saying goes, "Make hay while the sun shines".

Same issue with lumber prices that were spiking in the last year or two. A lot of lumber mills shut down during the pandemic and no one wanted to take the risk to build a new one because as they rightly predicted, prices would eventually fall back to normal. Had a company started trying to build a plant a year or two ago when prices were high they would be bringing that new plant online just as all the potential profit evaporated.

Having worked in the industry for a time as a supplier of components needed in oil refining, just commenting on the timeline, as it had amazed me.  It is 10-20 years before a refinery is operating and has recovered their costs.   As such, with the move to electrics well under way we'll be outside that window well before any projects that got going today would pan out, hence the reluctance to do anything.

[PDXTabs]

I'm totally willing to accept that Clinton should go to jail, but am not willing to send her there without evidence of wrong doing.

That is how a trial is supposed to work. I guess that there is one way to find out. Along those lines, this is the actual executive order that her boss signed to handle classified material appropriately: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2010-01-05/pdf/E9-31418.pdf

[ATtiny85]

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

But why be so partisan about it? I'm fine if Clinton, Trump, and Biden all share the same jail cell.

Which Clinton? We should keep Presidents separate from non-Presidents…

[GuitarStv]

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

But why be so partisan about it? I'm fine if Clinton, Trump, and Biden all share the same jail cell.

Which Clinton? We should keep Presidents separate from non-Presidents…

I will never support the imprisonment of P-Funk's leader

[scottish]

Fed civilians are only pessimistic because they have no idea how much money the private sector regularly blows on stupid projects, lazy contractors, etc. The government, imo, does just as good of a job as the private sector on project budgets.

This has also been my experience after working in private industry on many government (military and transportation) projects.  Private industry is often massively wasteful, it's just that there's serious incentive to hide the waste and usually much less transparency so it's not always as easy to see.

Really?   When I transitioned from defense contracting to telecomms I was amazed at how efficient R&D was in my new job.    That's not to say that industry doesn't regularly screw up, it's just that defense is even worse.   

[GuitarStv]

Fed civilians are only pessimistic because they have no idea how much money the private sector regularly blows on stupid projects, lazy contractors, etc. The government, imo, does just as good of a job as the private sector on project budgets.

This has also been my experience after working in private industry on many government (military and transportation) projects.  Private industry is often massively wasteful, it's just that there's serious incentive to hide the waste and usually much less transparency so it's not always as easy to see.

Really?   When I transitioned from defense contracting to telecomms I was amazed at how efficient R&D was in my new job.    That's not to say that industry doesn't regularly screw up, it's just that defense is even worse.   

Perhaps an anaecdote about private company efficiency.

I requisitioned a new computer at the gigantic multinational privately owned company that I worked at, as the old one was just too slow to develop on.  To do this it was necessary to see an administrative assistant to get a requisition form, then get the signature of my project lead and my department head, as well as explain what the computer would be used for, the software necessary to install on it, and the administrative access for the computer.  So I did.  Sent everything in got word that my computer was coming!

So the IT guy comes by with my new laptop.  He grabs my old laptop.  I say "No, leave the old laptop here until I'm sure that everything is working right."  He says "Can't give you the new laptop without taking the old laptop."  So he leaves with my old laptop as I power on the new one.  Right after powering it on I discover that there's no admin access and the software I needed installed wasn't installed.  So I ran down the hall and intercepted the IT guy, asking for my laptop.  He refused to swap back, citing an IT policy.  I pointed out that I couldn't do my job without admin access and the software I needed.  He said "No problem, you just open a help desk ticket and that will be resolved right away!"

So I go back to my new laptop and open an help desk ticket.  And then after a couple hours called IT on the phone (they said that they couldn't help me until the next day).  So I told my boss and went home.  Next day I still had no software, no admin access, and no old laptop.  Called IT again.  This time they said that they couldn't help me because the head of IT needed to sign off on any engineer getting administrative access to his computer, and the guy who usually does the software installs was on vacation and wouldn't be back for a month.  IT would love to give me my old computer back, but it had been wiped last night and they have no other machines that I could use.

Figured the best thing to do would be to try to get the admin access and do the installs myself.  So I escalated the issue to my manager, who sent me to his manager, who sent me to the project lead, who sent me to the department head, who sent me to an executive assistant who gave me a phone number.  Called the phone number, and couldn't get through . . . you see, there's a six hour difference between where we live in Canada and France so he had gone home for the day.  So my supervisor said I could go home for the day, since it wasn't possible for me to do my work.

I spend the rest of the week trying to contact this French IT guy who carefully guarded my admin access like a starving mime guards a fresh baguette.  Eventually he relented, pressed a button, and after only a week of non-productive time I was able to install my own software!  Ah, but what was the new problem?  Well it seems that IT is very cautious about allowing untrustworthy engineers access to install files.  Suffice it to say that a solid three more days passed before I was able to locate the interoffice black market and amass enough stolen photocopy paper, stale meeting donuts, and three ring binders to entice a dealer to hook me up.

That's why I giggle a bit every time someone mentions private sector efficiency.

[PDXTabs]

That's why I giggle a bit every time someone mentions private sector efficiency.

I worked in a large publicly traded Dow component that was almost that bad. But the small private company I work for lets me buy three computers on my personal credit card and expense it under "office supplies" as long as my boss is okay with it. That's not a hypothetical, that actually happened.

[scottish]

Fed civilians are only pessimistic because they have no idea how much money the private sector regularly blows on stupid projects, lazy contractors, etc. The government, imo, does just as good of a job as the private sector on project budgets.

This has also been my experience after working in private industry on many government (military and transportation) projects.  Private industry is often massively wasteful, it's just that there's serious incentive to hide the waste and usually much less transparency so it's not always as easy to see.

Really?   When I transitioned from defense contracting to telecomms I was amazed at how efficient R&D was in my new job.    That's not to say that industry doesn't regularly screw up, it's just that defense is even worse.   

Perhaps an anaecdote about private company efficiency.

I requisitioned a new computer at the gigantic multinational privately owned company that I worked at, as the old one was just too slow to develop on.  To do this it was necessary to see an administrative assistant to get a requisition form, then get the signature of my project lead and my department head, as well as explain what the computer would be used for, the software necessary to install on it, and the administrative access for the computer.  So I did.  Sent everything in got word that my computer was coming!

So the IT guy comes by with my new laptop.  He grabs my old laptop.  I say "No, leave the old laptop here until I'm sure that everything is working right."  He says "Can't give you the new laptop without taking the old laptop."  So he leaves with my old laptop as I power on the new one.  Right after powering it on I discover that there's no admin access and the software I needed installed wasn't installed.  So I ran down the hall and intercepted the IT guy, asking for my laptop.  He refused to swap back, citing an IT policy.  I pointed out that I couldn't do my job without admin access and the software I needed.  He said "No problem, you just open a help desk ticket and that will be resolved right away!"

So I go back to my new laptop and open an help desk ticket.  And then after a couple hours called IT on the phone (they said that they couldn't help me until the next day).  So I told my boss and went home.  Next day I still had no software, no admin access, and no old laptop.  Called IT again.  This time they said that they couldn't help me because the head of IT needed to sign off on any engineer getting administrative access to his computer, and the guy who usually does the software installs was on vacation and wouldn't be back for a month.  IT would love to give me my old computer back, but it had been wiped last night and they have no other machines that I could use.

Figured the best thing to do would be to try to get the admin access and do the installs myself.  So I escalated the issue to my manager, who sent me to his manager, who sent me to the project lead, who sent me to the department head, who sent me to an executive assistant who gave me a phone number.  Called the phone number, and couldn't get through . . . you see, there's a six hour difference between where we live in Canada and France so he had gone home for the day.  So my supervisor said I could go home for the day, since it wasn't possible for me to do my work.

I spend the rest of the week trying to contact this French IT guy who carefully guarded my admin access like a starving mime guards a fresh baguette.  Eventually he relented, pressed a button, and after only a week of non-productive time I was able to install my own software!  Ah, but what was the new problem?  Well it seems that IT is very cautious about allowing untrustworthy engineers access to install files.  Suffice it to say that a solid three more days passed before I was able to locate the interoffice black market and amass enough stolen photocopy paper, stale meeting donuts, and three ring binders to entice a dealer to hook me up.

That's why I giggle a bit every time someone mentions private sector efficiency.

LOL.   I'd tell you a similar story, but it would bring back annoying memories.

[FIPurpose]

Fed civilians are only pessimistic because they have no idea how much money the private sector regularly blows on stupid projects, lazy contractors, etc. The government, imo, does just as good of a job as the private sector on project budgets.

This has also been my experience after working in private industry on many government (military and transportation) projects.  Private industry is often massively wasteful, it's just that there's serious incentive to hide the waste and usually much less transparency so it's not always as easy to see.

Really?   When I transitioned from defense contracting to telecomms I was amazed at how efficient R&D was in my new job.    That's not to say that industry doesn't regularly screw up, it's just that defense is even worse.   

If we include government embezzlement and money wasting it's only fair to also include on the other side: Theranos, Enron, basically all of Bitcoin / NFT's, MLM's, companies that were leveraged to the eyeballs in debt and bankrupted (JC Penny, Toys'R'Us), etc.

Yes you can pick out companies that run fantastic operations. But there are hundreds to thousands of companies that do not. And there is tons of large scale corruption that happens in the private sector all the time.

Only pointing out government failures seems like selection bias to me.

[pecunia]

So,.....how about Biden's State of the Union Speech and the Huckabee response?

[talltexan]

I personally was re-assured that Republicans actually are okay with keeping Social Security the way it is.

[FIPurpose]

I personally was re-assured that Republicans actually are okay with keeping Social Security the way it is.

When did they say that? They've been couching their language the past few months in "no one who receives benefits today will see a reduction". They're still going to try and reduce future beneficiaries.

[jnw]

Mitch McConnell has in the past made it clear that Social Security and other "entitlements" (as he calls it) needs reworking.  Paul Ryan (former speaker of the house) wanted to privatize it as well.  Most of the negativity for social security, that I've seen, seems to come from the republicans.  Although, for some reason at one point Obama/Pelosi considered tweaking the COLA to make it so beneficiaries end up getting less and less over time.. they scrapped that idea after they found out how unpopular it was.  SS retirement/disability is a popular program.  I don't really see it going away or severely modified.. They will probably increase the wage cap as they go to meet inflation etc.

[brandon1827]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

[JGS1980]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

[pecunia]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

Yeh - I think the behavior is beginning to backfire.  I think people are less likely to vote for rebellious crazy adults.

I wasn't too impressed with the rebuttal to the State of the Union speech by the Republicans.  I listened for what ideas they have to help the country.  From my viewpoint, it sounded like noise.  To me "CRT" still means Cathode Ray Tube.

[Michael in ABQ]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

Yeah, standing behind the president and ripping his speech in half was a pretty shitty thing to do.

[FIPurpose]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

Yeah, standing behind the president and ripping his speech in half was a pretty shitty thing to do.

You're equivocating basically one of the tamest possible forms of behavior? If only GOP supporters and representatives held themselves to merely ripping paper.

[Kris]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

Yeah, standing behind the president and ripping his speech in half was a pretty shitty thing to do.

You're equivocating basically one of the tamest possible forms of behavior? If only GOP supporters and representatives held themselves to merely ripping paper.

False equivalence is on the first page of the conservative playbook.

[JGS1980]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

Yeah, standing behind the president and ripping his speech in half was a pretty shitty thing to do.

Ripping paper is pretty light criticism in this day in age.

Still, I agree ABQ, not a classy move by Pelosi.

But I think your comment is a great example of how this crap bleeds into the general population. All the vitriol toward Pelosi over the years ultimately led to her husbands being assaulted by a crazy dude with a hammer last fall. The guy was looking for the Speaker, not her husband.

This is not the mark of a healthy society.

[GuitarStv]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

Yeah, standing behind the president and ripping his speech in half was a pretty shitty thing to do.

Agreed.  When Pelosi did that, it was a childish and petulant thing to do.  I think that interrupting the president's speech multiple times to scream things out is arguably worse . . . but neither of these actions should be condoned.

[FIPurpose]

I thought the President played it well last night in terms of getting them on the record as stating they weren't looking to cut social security. Overall, it was a complete shit-show by maga republicans. Decorum is dead apparently.

The decorum thing really irks me. This shit behavior bleeds into our greater society. Teacher conferences, kids sporting events, public concerts, doctor's visits, grocery store shopping. Normalizing asshole behavior just leads to justification for more assholes to act like themselves....publicly. This is TERRIBLE for our society in general.

Yeah, standing behind the president and ripping his speech in half was a pretty shitty thing to do.

Ripping paper is pretty light criticism in this day in age.

Still, I agree ABQ, not a classy move by Pelosi.

But I think your comment is a great example of how this crap bleeds into the general population. All the vitriol toward Pelosi over the years ultimately led to her husbands being assaulted by a crazy dude with a hammer last fall. The guy was looking for the Speaker, not her husband.

This is not the mark of a healthy society.

I disagree. Both sides should be able to voice their discontent with the other side. Making flashy gestures should be acceptable.

The same reason I think the complaints about kneeling at a football game are gross. Everyone, including politicians, should be able to protest the current government even if its a bit cheesy and over-the-top.

Ripping the paper was done after Trump was done with his speech. She let him fully say everything he wanted, and then had a small show of protest against it after the fact.

It's the difference between someone walking out of a show they don't like and heckling the performer.

[Dancin'Dog]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it. 

[Glenstache]

In context, Peolosi shredding was also after Trump had refused to shake her hand prior to his SOTU speech.

Here is why Pelosi shredded it:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-speech-pelosi/u-s-speaker-pelosi-says-she-ripped-up-trump-speech-because-it-shredded-the-truth-idUSKBN1ZZ2O3

I personally thought it was tactful political theater on her part, and certainly less offensive than listening to Trump lie far beyond the normal bounds of politcal stretching of facts. In that vein, one of the MAGA yells (from MTG, if I recall) was saying that Biden was lying for stating that Republicans want to gut Medicare/Medicaid, when that that has been an explicit goal for decades. They (and their conservative political donors) want to do it, but don't want to be seen as doing it because the programs are both effective and popular.

On the whole, it was still pretty tame relative to British parliament.

[the_gastropod]

I wasn't too impressed with the rebuttal to the State of the Union speech by the Republicans.  I listened for what ideas they have to help the country.  From my viewpoint, it sounded like noise.  To me "CRT" still means Cathode Ray Tube.

Agreed. It was one of the weirdest speeches I think I've listened to. She spent like half her time on that super-weird and rambling story about "...in total darkness, not a single light, all our phones and computers were off. Totally off the grid. Dark. We flew for 12 hours... [...] and landed in total darkness. No lights. Computers and phones still off. [...] and, in unison, they chanted 'USA! USA! USA! USA' [...] and I said 'What? You get shot at! My job's easy!' [...] and a man re-enlisted, and told the president 'I re-enlisted because of you', and Trump said 'I'm running for re-election because of you!' [...] and he gave me his badge and told me to keep fighting [...]"

Then the rest was just, unfortunately, kind of classic 2023 Republican nonsense: "Democrats wants to control you, Republicans want FREEDOM!" (wat? Like banning abortion? Banning books? That kind of freedom?) Imaginary enemy "CRT" scaremongering. More obsessive / purposeful ignorance about transgender issues ("Democrats can't even define 'woman'")

Conservatives waging culture wars to distract the less-bright from their true mission of further enriching the rich is nothing new (see: the war on Christmas, scaremongering about socialism since the 1930s, etc.) But we've reached a level of grossness that seems like a breaking point if it's not reeled in a bit. And so it was a bit of a bummer to see Republicans choose Sarah Huckabee Sanders to give that ridiculous speech last night.

[brandon1827]

I thought it was particularly on point when Huckabee tried to distinguish between the two parties by saying the choice was now between normal vs. crazy...while MTG demonstrated the crazy for the whole world to see. *chef's kiss*

[HPstache]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

[Kris]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

If he had it memorized, his brain is far, far sharper than mine.

[GuitarStv]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

I mean . . . does it matter?

Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't have dementia and she has blamed wildfires on secret Jewish space lasers.  Matt Gaetz doesn't have dementia, and he trafficked underage girls for sex.  Ron Johnson, Josh Hawley, Louie Gohmert, Andrew Clyde, and Paul Gosar don't have any allegations of dementia and are all supported the insurrectionists who attacked the Capitol.

If Biden has dementia he's doing so much better than the allegedly sane people he's working with that it's hard to care too much about the disease.  Reagan did pretty well with dementia through his second term as president . . . so maybe we shouldn't care too much about it.

[Kris]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

I mean . . . does it matter?

Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't have dementia and she has blamed wildfires on secret Jewish space lasers.  Matt Gaetz doesn't have dementia, and he trafficked underage girls for sex.  Ron Johnson, Josh Hawley, Louie Gohmert, Andrew Clyde, and Paul Gosar don't have any allegations of dementia and are all supported the insurrectionists who attacked the Capitol.

If Biden has dementia he's doing so much better than the allegedly sane people he's working with that it's hard to care too much about the disease.  Reagan did pretty well with dementia through his second term as president . . . so maybe we shouldn't care too much about it.

Yep.

And also, he doesn’t have dementia.

[GuitarStv]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

I mean . . . does it matter?

Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't have dementia and she has blamed wildfires on secret Jewish space lasers.  Matt Gaetz doesn't have dementia, and he trafficked underage girls for sex.  Ron Johnson, Josh Hawley, Louie Gohmert, Andrew Clyde, and Paul Gosar don't have any allegations of dementia and are all supported the insurrectionists who attacked the Capitol.

If Biden has dementia he's doing so much better than the allegedly sane people he's working with that it's hard to care too much about the disease.  Reagan did pretty well with dementia through his second term as president . . . so maybe we shouldn't care too much about it.

Yep.

And also, he doesn’t have dementia.

But if he does . . . can we give other people in government dementia so that they also start acting like sensible people?  :P

[Dancin'Dog]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

You obviously don't have any experience being around people with dementia.  Biden is a sharp guy. 

[Travis]

MTG going off the rails enough that McCarthy literally shooshed her mid-scream is going to get some play time for a few days.  Biden painting the Republicans into a couple "gotcha" moments with Social Security and taking their foreign policy ball and sprinting with it left them with Sara Sanders going on a culture war rant because an actual policy platform seems a little thin right now. Trump attempted a play by play on Twitter which turned out to be just boring compared to the energy in the chamber during the speech.

[pecunia]

MTG going off the rails enough that McCarthy literally shooshed her mid-scream is going to get some play time for a few days.  Biden painting the Republicans into a couple "gotcha" moments with Social Security and taking their foreign policy ball and sprinting with it left them with Sara Sanders going on a culture war rant because an actual policy platform seems a little thin right now. Trump attempted a play by play on Twitter which turned out to be just boring compared to the energy in the chamber during the speech.

Yeh - I actually feel a bit sorry for the Republicans because they seem to have nothing of substance to offer the public and I feel sorry for us, the public, because those SOBs should be providing a viable realistic alternative.

[Phenix]

MTG going off the rails enough that McCarthy literally shooshed her mid-scream is going to get some play time for a few days.  Biden painting the Republicans into a couple "gotcha" moments with Social Security and taking their foreign policy ball and sprinting with it left them with Sara Sanders going on a culture war rant because an actual policy platform seems a little thin right now. Trump attempted a play by play on Twitter which turned out to be just boring compared to the energy in the chamber during the speech.

Yeh - I actually feel a bit sorry for the Republicans because they seem to have nothing of substance to offer the public and I feel sorry for us, the public, because those SOBs should be providing a viable realistic alternative.

I'm pretty sure that is by design. They weren't elected to offer solutions; they were elected to stand in the way of the deomocrats. I'm fairly certain doing nothing for the final 2 years of Biden will most certainly guarantee they get voted for again in 2024.

[nereo]

MTG going off the rails enough that McCarthy literally shooshed her mid-scream is going to get some play time for a few days.  Biden painting the Republicans into a couple "gotcha" moments with Social Security and taking their foreign policy ball and sprinting with it left them with Sara Sanders going on a culture war rant because an actual policy platform seems a little thin right now. Trump attempted a play by play on Twitter which turned out to be just boring compared to the energy in the chamber during the speech.

Yeh - I actually feel a bit sorry for the Republicans because they seem to have nothing of substance to offer the public and I feel sorry for us, the public, because those SOBs should be providing a viable realistic alternative.

I'm pretty sure that is by design. They weren't elected to offer solutions; they were elected to stand in the way of the deomocrats. I'm fairly certain doing nothing for the final 2 years of Biden will most certainly guarantee they get voted for again in 2024.

I wish that this pattern of opposition was better remembered by the very members who support them now. I remember when the GOP came in a red wave in 2010 and members declared themselves proudly to be the party of “hell no” to the Obama administration, and raised motions to repeal the ACA some 56 times with a promise to replace it with ‘something better’ ASAP. Then from 2016-2018 they held all levels but failed to change the very think they had spent 7 years campaigning against and promising to change. Then the issue largely evaporated when the GOP went platformless in 2020.

[pecunia]

MTG going off the rails enough that McCarthy literally shooshed her mid-scream is going to get some play time for a few days.  Biden painting the Republicans into a couple "gotcha" moments with Social Security and taking their foreign policy ball and sprinting with it left them with Sara Sanders going on a culture war rant because an actual policy platform seems a little thin right now. Trump attempted a play by play on Twitter which turned out to be just boring compared to the energy in the chamber during the speech.

Yeh - I actually feel a bit sorry for the Republicans because they seem to have nothing of substance to offer the public and I feel sorry for us, the public, because those SOBs should be providing a viable realistic alternative.

I'm pretty sure that is by design. They weren't elected to offer solutions; they were elected to stand in the way of the deomocrats. I'm fairly certain doing nothing for the final 2 years of Biden will most certainly guarantee they get voted for again in 2024.

I'm not arguing with you but the idea is like there is this this conspiracy of special interests out there, oil industry for one, who want to maintain the status quo and manipulate the public to voting for these "do nothing" candidates.

[PeteD01]

MTG going off the rails enough that McCarthy literally shooshed her mid-scream is going to get some play time for a few days.  Biden painting the Republicans into a couple "gotcha" moments with Social Security and taking their foreign policy ball and sprinting with it left them with Sara Sanders going on a culture war rant because an actual policy platform seems a little thin right now. Trump attempted a play by play on Twitter which turned out to be just boring compared to the energy in the chamber during the speech.

Yeh - I actually feel a bit sorry for the Republicans because they seem to have nothing of substance to offer the public and I feel sorry for us, the public, because those SOBs should be providing a viable realistic alternative.

I'm pretty sure that is by design. They weren't elected to offer solutions; they were elected to stand in the way of the deomocrats. I'm fairly certain doing nothing for the final 2 years of Biden will most certainly guarantee they get voted for again in 2024.

I'm not arguing with you but the idea is like there is this this conspiracy of special interests out there, oil industry for one, who want to maintain the status quo and manipulate the public to voting for these "do nothing" candidates.

It is not a conspiracy because the special interests act in the open by either lobbying for future regulation to serve their interests, for the protection of an existing regulatory environment that is serving the special interests (protection of the status quo), and lobbying for the protection of existing regulations or introduction of regulation that allows for socialization of liabilities created by the special interests (rent seeking behavior).

It is all business as usual without need to invoke a conspiracy.
One could easily make the case that the conspiracy mindset obfuscates the view of what is going on in the open and is accordingly promoted among the chumps.
That view would be supported by the fact that the GOP has dropped any pretense of having a political program beyond a zoo of conspiracy theories.

[caracarn]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

Respectfully I'll say if you think someone with dementia could even read a speech, than clearly you do not understand the disease very well.  Having lived with two grandparents for decades who had diagnosed dementia and talking with many medical professionals about it, Biden is fine.  Additionally, being able to verbally spar on the fly and provide comments in context like "glad to see it's unanimous, Social Security is off the table" would not have been possible.  I'm assuming you're just asking rhetorically and not because you are buying into the crazy, but posting here for other who might not be. 

[HPstache]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

Respectfully I'll say if you think someone with dementia could even read a speech, than clearly you do not understand the disease very well.  Having lived with two grandparents for decades who had diagnosed dementia and talking with many medical professionals about it, Biden is fine.  Additionally, being able to verbally spar on the fly and provide comments in context like "glad to see it's unanimous, Social Security is off the table" would not have been possible.  I'm assuming you're just asking rhetorically and not because you are buying into the crazy, but posting here for other who might not be.

Respectfully, I have two grandparents with it as well and they can both read a speech.  My point is that it not some slam dunk proof.  As mentioned by another user Reagan likely had early stages and was able to cover it up and be a President without major issue.

[Glenstache]

I was really impressed with Biden's speech.  It was so strategically orchestrated how he played the MAGA/GOP extremists like the fools they are.   They ate it up and fell right into his trap, over & over.  No dementia in Joe's head.  He nailed it.

Do you think he wrote his speech or had it memorized?  How does this prove he does not have dimentia?

Respectfully I'll say if you think someone with dementia could even read a speech, than clearly you do not understand the disease very well.  Having lived with two grandparents for decades who had diagnosed dementia and talking with many medical professionals about it, Biden is fine.  Additionally, being able to verbally spar on the fly and provide comments in context like "glad to see it's unanimous, Social Security is off the table" would not have been possible.  I'm assuming you're just asking rhetorically and not because you are buying into the crazy, but posting here for other who might not be.

Respectfully, I have two grandparents with it as well and they can both read a speech.  My point is that it not some slam dunk proof.  As mentioned by another user Reagan likely had early stages and was able to cover it up and be a President without major issue.

It was certainly convenient, at the very least, that he couldn't remember much in 1990.
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1990/02/23/reagan-answers-questions-but-often-doesn-t-remember/

[By the River]

Anyone paying attention to the house oversight committee investigation?   Here's a quick memo https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Bank-Records-Memo-3.16.23.pdf

Seems like a lot of money for Starbucks and Papa Johns as a Maryland representative characterized it. 

[bacchi]

Anyone paying attention to the house oversight committee investigation?   Here's a quick memo https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Bank-Records-Memo-3.16.23.pdf

Seems like a lot of money for Starbucks and Papa Johns as a Maryland representative characterized it.

What services did Oneida perform for CEFC/State Energy? One of the Oneida partners was a nuclear engineer. Were they working on a nuclear plant somewhere (Hunter did try to get a Chinese built LNG plant in Louisiana at one point).

Is there a known, provable, quid pro quo between Joe Biden and CEFC? Did VP Joe try to get expedited nuke permits for Oneida?

If not, what do we do about close relatives of powerful government officials? There's no question that they receive some preference due to their connections, although invariably they're well degreed professionals in their own right. Do they stop all their deal making until their parent/in-law is not in office anymore?