Author Topic: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )  (Read 319600 times)

PKFFW

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1950 on: October 28, 2022, 01:11:35 PM »
in exactly the same way that bodily autonomy takes precedent in every other medical procedure besides abortion in America.

Does assisted suicide count?  Not sure, but that is a type of medical procedure that also denies bodily autonomy in the US.  It also is similar in that it is terminating and alive human, which you said earlier that you stated earlier that you believe a fetus is both.

Edit: I used the wrong word for assisted suicide
With a prohibition on assisted suicide, someone is being denied the right to do something they want to do, which is assisting another person to end their life.  Abortion is forcing someone to do something they do not want to do, which is carry another life to full term.  I think that makes the issues significantly different.

A prohibition on suicide itself would probably be a more apt analogy as in that case someone is being forced to do something they do not want to do, which is go on living.  (not sure if it is over there or not, just commenting on the issue)  However, the difference there is, you can't prosecute or punish them in any way once they have committed the crime of suicide so, besides being dead, there is no downside to the act from the point of view of the suicidee.

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3104
  • she/her
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1951 on: October 28, 2022, 01:15:30 PM »
in exactly the same way that bodily autonomy takes precedent in every other medical procedure besides abortion in America.

Does assisted suicide count?  Not sure, but that is a type of medical procedure that also denies bodily autonomy in the US.  It also is similar in that it is terminating and alive human, which you said earlier that you stated earlier that you believe a fetus is both.

Edit: I used the wrong word for assisted suicide

I think assisted suicide is a much more complex question because there's a real quandry with respect to figuring out how to handle consent.  With abortion, there is no special concern about ability to consent than there would be in other surgeries, but in assisted suicide, you have everything from whether they were pressured by someone with a prospect of financial gain to whether the very reason they are deciding to do this is also something that casts doubt on capacity to consent (i.e. they have Alzheimer's which to me is a totally fair reason to want to terminate your life, but dementia of course makes you incapable of certain cognitive processes or actions, etc.; another good example is depression.) 

Of course there are certain laws in place or opponents of this bodily autonomy that - when you boil it down - are purely enforcing Christian religious beliefs on other people as part of our laws.  Which I believe is anathema.  But if you strip that away, you really are stuck with some difficult rule-making around how to ensure the patient is consenting.  "In Love" is a recent book about a person with early onset Alz and their use of Dignitas in Switzerland and that's probably the most liberal application of this method, and it's interesting to read about their multi-layered ways to address consent.

It should also be noted that while there are laws in some places to be able to prosecute someone for (attempting) suicide, I have recently heard that they are rarely (read: never) enforced.  The question is about liability of people helping you, but the bodily autonomy itself, if you could strip away logistics about help you may need to accomplish it and questions about consent, are I think much less fraught.

Certainly less fraught than letting women control what happens inside their own bodies.  Women have and are being prosecuted for what zealots suspect were attempted abortions even when it's quite obvious they were spontaneous abortions (also frequently known as miscarriages).  There are also many many women incarcerated *right now* because the government is suspicious that they *may do* something that is not healthy for the baby.  Not because they attempted an abortion, or because someone believes they might attempt an abortion. But because they may do something with their lives or bodies that is not healthy for the baby.

So, locking women up for the duration of their pregnancy because we want to make sure they don't go jetboating or drink too much or, you know, jog too vigorously?  It's not terribly far off when you can justify everything with handwaving about "killing babies".  I mean, really, how much is it to ask for a woman to just please not for chrissakes go jogging when she is 3 months pregnant so that a tiny sweet angelic innocent baby can LIVE?  It's so selfish when women want to jog or eat or go places outside of their bedrooms when there are lives at stake here! 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23248
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1952 on: October 28, 2022, 02:08:28 PM »
in exactly the same way that bodily autonomy takes precedent in every other medical procedure besides abortion in America.

Does assisted suicide count?  Not sure, but that is a type of medical procedure that also denies bodily autonomy in the US.  It also is similar in that it is terminating and alive human, which you said earlier that you stated earlier that you believe a fetus is both.

Edit: I used the wrong word for assisted suicide

Assisted suicide is a whole different can of worms.  Generally speaking I believe that people should be allowed to choose to die.  Choosing when to end your own life is the single greatest freedom over your body that can be given.  But you have to balance that with the fact that the majority of people who are depressed and are prevented from suicide end up being really happy that someone stopped them.  So I tend to lean towards legalization but maybe with some sort of a waiting period for the right to end your life.

There isn't really the same concern about depression/mental when someone is asking for an abortion as when someone is asking to die, so I tend to see the two issues as quite different.

HPstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2863
  • Age: 37
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1953 on: October 28, 2022, 04:36:50 PM »
in exactly the same way that bodily autonomy takes precedent in every other medical procedure besides abortion in America.

Does assisted suicide count?  Not sure, but that is a type of medical procedure that also denies bodily autonomy in the US.  It also is similar in that it is terminating and alive human, which you said earlier that you stated earlier that you believe a fetus is both.

Edit: I used the wrong word for assisted suicide

Assisted suicide is a whole different can of worms.  Generally speaking I believe that people should be allowed to choose to die.  Choosing when to end your own life is the single greatest freedom over your body that can be given.  But you have to balance that with the fact that the majority of people who are depressed and are prevented from suicide end up being really happy that someone stopped them.  So I tend to lean towards legalization but maybe with some sort of a waiting period for the right to end your life.

There isn't really the same concern about depression/mental when someone is asking for an abortion as when someone is asking to die, so I tend to see the two issues as quite different.

Is it another example of law taking precedent over bodily autonomy though?  Is a waiting period a fair law for an abortion?  The reason conservatives push for waiting periods/counselling periods with abortion is for the exact same reason... statistically, people change their mind with time to think and weigh options.  Are there any fair laws for abortion? 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 04:54:22 PM by v8rx7guy »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23248
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1954 on: October 28, 2022, 05:16:35 PM »
in exactly the same way that bodily autonomy takes precedent in every other medical procedure besides abortion in America.

Does assisted suicide count?  Not sure, but that is a type of medical procedure that also denies bodily autonomy in the US.  It also is similar in that it is terminating and alive human, which you said earlier that you stated earlier that you believe a fetus is both.

Edit: I used the wrong word for assisted suicide

Assisted suicide is a whole different can of worms.  Generally speaking I believe that people should be allowed to choose to die.  Choosing when to end your own life is the single greatest freedom over your body that can be given.  But you have to balance that with the fact that the majority of people who are depressed and are prevented from suicide end up being really happy that someone stopped them.  So I tend to lean towards legalization but maybe with some sort of a waiting period for the right to end your life.

There isn't really the same concern about depression/mental when someone is asking for an abortion as when someone is asking to die, so I tend to see the two issues as quite different.

Is it another example of law taking precedent over bodily autonomy though?  Is a waiting period a fair law for an abortion?

Yes.

Is a waiting period a fair law for an abortion?

Pregnancy is obviously very time sensitive in a way that suicide is not.  You've got about 9 months, and there are greater complications in later stage abortions.  There are also hormonal and physical changes that a woman is forced to go through if she is required to wait.

The reason conservatives push for waiting periods/counselling periods with abortion is for the exact same reason... statistically, people change their mind with time to think and weigh options.  Are there any fair laws for abortion?

The vast majority of people who fail at suicide (I think it's around 70ish percent?) don't attempt suicide ever again.  The majority of women (60ish percent) who have abortions are already mothers.  The mothers know exactly what pregnancy and raising a child is like.  This seems like quite a difference right there - and one that would indicate that time to think about the decision is not the same at all for the two different scenarios.

Do you have the statistics on the percentage of women who were prevented from having an abortion who ended up being much happier?

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3104
  • she/her
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1955 on: October 28, 2022, 07:16:58 PM »
in exactly the same way that bodily autonomy takes precedent in every other medical procedure besides abortion in America.

Does assisted suicide count?  Not sure, but that is a type of medical procedure that also denies bodily autonomy in the US.  It also is similar in that it is terminating and alive human, which you said earlier that you stated earlier that you believe a fetus is both.

Edit: I used the wrong word for assisted suicide

Assisted suicide is a whole different can of worms.  Generally speaking I believe that people should be allowed to choose to die.  Choosing when to end your own life is the single greatest freedom over your body that can be given.  But you have to balance that with the fact that the majority of people who are depressed and are prevented from suicide end up being really happy that someone stopped them.  So I tend to lean towards legalization but maybe with some sort of a waiting period for the right to end your life.

There isn't really the same concern about depression/mental when someone is asking for an abortion as when someone is asking to die, so I tend to see the two issues as quite different.

Is it another example of law taking precedent over bodily autonomy though?  Is a waiting period a fair law for an abortion?  The reason conservatives push for waiting periods/counselling periods with abortion is for the exact same reason... statistically, people change their mind with time to think and weigh options.  Are there any fair laws for abortion?

People may change their minds about suicide if they are forced to wait, but I don't think there's any evidence that women change their minds about abortions if they are forced to wait.  They experience higher costs, inconveniences, childcare issues, job demands, etc. that may make them unable to complete the procedure (or to begin it to start with) which is exactly the point.  It's not to give women a chance to change their mind.  As GuitarStv said, they know what they are getting into.  The point of the law is to drive women away from being capable of accomplishing what they want and need to do when the politicians were unable to outlaw it directly.  You won't see many of these laws anymore, since the states that had them have or are in the process of accomplishing what they had hoped to all along without needing to resort to these deceptive tactics.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4932
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1956 on: October 29, 2022, 08:19:14 AM »

If you've ever seen an ultrasound of your child in the womb, I'm not sure how you could ever be in favor of abortion.

I’m trying to be very deliberate with a serious response here:

I do not understand how someone can sit down with a functional adult female getting an ultrasound and conclude that she must carry to term, regardless of her wishes, the circumstances and the risk

Regarding your “viewing an ultrasound” - we personally were in the “no abortion for us” camp until we started trying to have a child. Then we realized just how much we disagreed with the concept of placinv the health and lives of multiple people behind a fetus.

I was also personally shocked at how the medical professionals largely failed to discuss the risks and likely outcomes of various decisions. Typically when discussing a potential surgery, drug or even a hobby the doctor will lay out the potential side effects, health risks and expected benefits given things like age, family history and medical history. But that was almost entirely missing for my wife. There was a very vague “well given your medical history we will be keeping an eye on [list of several potential complications]” but never did they say “this leads to serious complications in about 1:1000 women with similar histories” or even the long term consequences of even a supposed “no complications” birth. Never did the multiple professionals she met with ever break down the comparative risks of an abortion with those of carrying to term. I can’t think of another instance where failing to inform your patient of the medical risks and likely outcomes wouldn’t be considered malpractice. But here it was just the approach to a woman who was pregnant. [/list]
My eight week transvaginal ultrasound look almost identical to the fetal rats I was dissecting three days later. 

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7100
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1957 on: October 29, 2022, 04:26:28 PM »
My point, before we get too off-topic, is that ever since the Newt Gingrich era in the late 90s I've never once heard of a Republican speculating whether they need to compromise or moderate their stance on any issue to appease Democrats.  Instead, they double-down and accuse Democrats of being unpatriotic, obstructionist and worse.

It has escalated to encouraging personal hatred of anyone who ever votes Democrat.  Remember one of their rallies where an attendee seriously asked if they should "just kill all the Democrats?"  Can anyone imagine that happening in the Eisenhower or Nixon era?

This is a deliberate strategy to marginalize Democrats and liberals from GOPAC and Frank Luntz. The memo "Language: A Key Mechanism of Control" has key words to use in any debate or discussion.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOPAC
For example, words to use against opponents include decay, failure (fail), collapse(ing), deeper, crisis, urgent(cy), destructive, destroy, sick, pathetic, lie, radical, liberal, they/them, unionized bureaucracy, betray, consequences, limit(s), shallow, traitors, sensationalists,"compassion" is not enough;

Al Franken explained the Republican playbook as '"Go Negative Early"; "Don't Try to Educate"; "Never Back Off".'

Unfortunately, given our attention span and desire to find easy solutions*, there doesn't seem to be a good counter argument.



* I think this also relates to the other thread about the woo epidemic. How far apart is believing in a Reiki session by Zoom vs believing in Chinese bamboo ballots?


bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7100
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1958 on: October 29, 2022, 04:29:55 PM »
For me, it's a women's issue, but I think it's totally fair to call it an economic issue broadly.  The loss of productivity, GDP, etc. etc from women who would like to but cannot afford to work is significant and even though I'm pretty anti-capitalist, it makes me angry to think there are people that would like to be working and we aren't doing something to help make that happen, which most people think is a basic function of government.

Have you ever considered childcare and employer provided healthcare insurance as features rather than bugs? Same perhaps for abortion. That perhaps conservatives would rather women be at home and healthcare tied to employment? Both would tie people to their employers pretty tightly.

I'm still trying to work out the benefits to conservatives of most families being single income aside from the fact that society might revert to looking like 1954.

Less resilience. If you're a single income family, you'd better damn well be pleasing your boss to avoid becoming a no-income family.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1959 on: October 29, 2022, 04:39:53 PM »
For me, it's a women's issue, but I think it's totally fair to call it an economic issue broadly.  The loss of productivity, GDP, etc. etc from women who would like to but cannot afford to work is significant and even though I'm pretty anti-capitalist, it makes me angry to think there are people that would like to be working and we aren't doing something to help make that happen, which most people think is a basic function of government.

Have you ever considered childcare and employer provided healthcare insurance as features rather than bugs?

Employer provided health insurance is an unintended consequence of price controls during WWII. Thanks FDR!
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/why-is-health-care-expensive-wwii-wage-controls/

A lack of public health care is the deliberate action of doctors:
https://www.kqed.org/news/11902591/why-do-so-many-doctors-oppose-single-payer-health-care
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3066667/
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 04:41:50 PM by PDXTabs »

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3695
  • Location: Germany
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1960 on: October 30, 2022, 04:27:39 AM »
On assisted suicide, I recommend the film made by the BBC with Terry Pratchett (who was investigating assisted suicide for his personal reason and in the end died without it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Pratchett%3A_Choosing_to_Die

There is one sentence in his books that stuck to me: "There are no laws about assisted suicide in Spain, because of too much religion, and in Germany, because of too much history."

It's a bit outdated, but as he was master at it, P'Terry summed up the problematic part of it in one sentence.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1961 on: October 31, 2022, 11:16:27 AM »
For me, it's a women's issue, but I think it's totally fair to call it an economic issue broadly.  The loss of productivity, GDP, etc. etc from women who would like to but cannot afford to work is significant and even though I'm pretty anti-capitalist, it makes me angry to think there are people that would like to be working and we aren't doing something to help make that happen, which most people think is a basic function of government.

Have you ever considered childcare and employer provided healthcare insurance as features rather than bugs? Same perhaps for abortion. That perhaps conservatives would rather women be at home and healthcare tied to employment? Both would tie people to their employers pretty tightly.

I'm still trying to work out the benefits to conservatives of most families being single income aside from the fact that society might revert to looking like 1954.

Less resilience. If you're a single income family, you'd better damn well be pleasing your boss to avoid becoming a no-income family.

I am friends with plenty of families at the young-kids-stage of life where having a parent focus on at-home duties feels right for them. I am also friends with plenty of families with both parents seeking full-time-work.

There is certainly an empathy gap in which many members of the first group simply cannot appreciate the constellation of reasons that keep so many women in the second group.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1962 on: November 19, 2022, 01:11:45 PM »
Biden as a Democratic presidential candidate vowed to make a “pariah” out of Saudi rulers over the 2018 killing of Khashoggi.

“I think it was a flat-out murder,” Biden said in a 2019 CNN town hall, as a candidate. “And I think we should have nailed it as that. I publicly said at the time we should treat it that way and there should be consequences relating to how we deal with those — that power.”

But Biden as president has sought to ease tensions with the kingdom, including bumping fists with Prince Mohammed on a July trip to the kingdom, as the U.S. works to persuade Saudi Arabia to undo a series of cuts in oil production.

Khashoggi’s fiancée and DAWN sued the crown prince, his top aides and others in Washington federal court over their alleged roles in Khashoggi’s killing. Saudi Arabia says the prince had no direct role in the slaying.

“It’s beyond ironic that President Biden has singlehandedly assured MBS can escape accountability when it was President Biden who promised the American people he would do everything to hold him accountable,” the head of DAWN, Sarah Leah Whitson, said in a statement, using the prince’s acronym.
- AP: US moves to shield Saudi crown prince in journalist killing.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7354
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1963 on: November 19, 2022, 01:47:14 PM »
Biden as a Democratic presidential candidate vowed to make a “pariah” out of Saudi rulers over the 2018 killing of Khashoggi.

“I think it was a flat-out murder,” Biden said in a 2019 CNN town hall, as a candidate. “And I think we should have nailed it as that. I publicly said at the time we should treat it that way and there should be consequences relating to how we deal with those — that power.”

But Biden as president has sought to ease tensions with the kingdom, including bumping fists with Prince Mohammed on a July trip to the kingdom, as the U.S. works to persuade Saudi Arabia to undo a series of cuts in oil production.

Khashoggi’s fiancée and DAWN sued the crown prince, his top aides and others in Washington federal court over their alleged roles in Khashoggi’s killing. Saudi Arabia says the prince had no direct role in the slaying.

“It’s beyond ironic that President Biden has singlehandedly assured MBS can escape accountability when it was President Biden who promised the American people he would do everything to hold him accountable,” the head of DAWN, Sarah Leah Whitson, said in a statement, using the prince’s acronym.
- AP: US moves to shield Saudi crown prince in journalist killing.

Horrifying.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23248
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1964 on: November 19, 2022, 02:57:07 PM »
Biden as a Democratic presidential candidate vowed to make a “pariah” out of Saudi rulers over the 2018 killing of Khashoggi.

“I think it was a flat-out murder,” Biden said in a 2019 CNN town hall, as a candidate. “And I think we should have nailed it as that. I publicly said at the time we should treat it that way and there should be consequences relating to how we deal with those — that power.”

But Biden as president has sought to ease tensions with the kingdom, including bumping fists with Prince Mohammed on a July trip to the kingdom, as the U.S. works to persuade Saudi Arabia to undo a series of cuts in oil production.

Khashoggi’s fiancée and DAWN sued the crown prince, his top aides and others in Washington federal court over their alleged roles in Khashoggi’s killing. Saudi Arabia says the prince had no direct role in the slaying.

“It’s beyond ironic that President Biden has singlehandedly assured MBS can escape accountability when it was President Biden who promised the American people he would do everything to hold him accountable,” the head of DAWN, Sarah Leah Whitson, said in a statement, using the prince’s acronym.
- AP: US moves to shield Saudi crown prince in journalist killing.

Horrifying.

Yep.  Legit beef with Biden on this.

Wolfpack Mustachian

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1868
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1965 on: November 19, 2022, 03:24:06 PM »
Biden as a Democratic presidential candidate vowed to make a “pariah” out of Saudi rulers over the 2018 killing of Khashoggi.

“I think it was a flat-out murder,” Biden said in a 2019 CNN town hall, as a candidate. “And I think we should have nailed it as that. I publicly said at the time we should treat it that way and there should be consequences relating to how we deal with those — that power.”

But Biden as president has sought to ease tensions with the kingdom, including bumping fists with Prince Mohammed on a July trip to the kingdom, as the U.S. works to persuade Saudi Arabia to undo a series of cuts in oil production.

Khashoggi’s fiancée and DAWN sued the crown prince, his top aides and others in Washington federal court over their alleged roles in Khashoggi’s killing. Saudi Arabia says the prince had no direct role in the slaying.

“It’s beyond ironic that President Biden has singlehandedly assured MBS can escape accountability when it was President Biden who promised the American people he would do everything to hold him accountable,” the head of DAWN, Sarah Leah Whitson, said in a statement, using the prince’s acronym.
- AP: US moves to shield Saudi crown prince in journalist killing.

Horrifying.

Yep.  Legit beef with Biden on this.

I am by no means a Biden fan. However, at the point we're at in American politics, I have zero faith that anyone who is able to be elected president will not worship at the altar of cheaper foreign oil/lower gas prices.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 908
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1966 on: November 19, 2022, 03:27:25 PM »
Maybe the US should have a national referendum. Anyone who cares could vote. Do we a) push for energy efficiency, energy independence, pay temporary higher gas prices, and tell countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia to go fuck off... or b) let oil rich countries tell us what to do and how to live.

Shane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • Location: Midtown
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1967 on: November 19, 2022, 03:55:25 PM »
I'd prefer option c) start ratcheting up state and federal gasoline taxes with the aim of keeping prices ≥$5/gallon, in the near term, and gradually increasing prices to $10/gallon, within 5 years.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23248
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1968 on: November 19, 2022, 04:23:55 PM »
I'd prefer option c) start ratcheting up state and federal gasoline taxes with the aim of keeping prices ≥$5/gallon, in the near term, and gradually increasing prices to $10/gallon, within 5 years.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Yeah . . . good luck with that.


If we're proposing things of the sort, I'd prefer option d) magical environmental unicorns breathe in all the bad gasses and fart our clean air that also causes anyone who sniffs it to favor world peace.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17592
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1969 on: November 19, 2022, 06:03:23 PM »
I'd prefer option c) start ratcheting up state and federal gasoline taxes with the aim of keeping prices ≥$5/gallon, in the near term, and gradually increasing prices to $10/gallon, within 5 years.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Yeah . . . good luck with that.


If we're proposing things of the sort, I'd prefer option d) magical environmental unicorns breathe in all the bad gasses and fart our clean air that also causes anyone who sniffs it to favor world peace.
Sure, but what do the unicorns taste like?

jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2708
  • Age: 247
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1970 on: November 19, 2022, 06:54:01 PM »
having grown up in a corrupt African country, I learned early that voters should be surprised when a politicians actually does what they stated on the campaign trail. If they don't follow-through their sweet nothings, then that's expected.
All politicians are prostitutes in suits/business clothing; they are not expected to provide happy endings.

And of course, Biden is going to play nice with MBS, while talking about increasing domestic oil production, and also pushing renewable sources.

Michael in ABQ

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1971 on: November 19, 2022, 07:21:52 PM »
Maybe the US should have a national referendum. Anyone who cares could vote. Do we a) push for energy efficiency, energy independence, pay temporary higher gas prices, and tell countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia to go fuck off... or b) let oil rich countries tell us what to do and how to live.

We're basically self-sufficient in crude oil production as it is. Assuming the federal government isn't actively trying to restrict oil production.

However, the US has excess refinery capacity relative to our needs, so we do import some crude oil and sell off the refined products. We also export some crude oil. We only import a tiny amount from Saudi Arabia - most of their oil goes to Europe and Asia.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3695
  • Location: Germany
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1972 on: November 20, 2022, 05:31:52 AM »
having grown up in a corrupt African country, I learned early that voters should be surprised when a politicians actually does what they stated on the campaign trail. If they don't follow-through their sweet nothings, then that's expected.
All politicians are prostitutes in suits/business clothing; they are not expected to provide happy endings.

And of course, Biden is going to play nice with MBS, while talking about increasing domestic oil production, and also pushing renewable sources.

There is a book that explains why that is so. Just look a few lines under this.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 908
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1973 on: November 21, 2022, 05:59:01 AM »
Maybe the US should have a national referendum. Anyone who cares could vote. Do we a) push for energy efficiency, energy independence, pay temporary higher gas prices, and tell countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia to go fuck off... or b) let oil rich countries tell us what to do and how to live.

We're basically self-sufficient in crude oil production as it is. Assuming the federal government isn't actively trying to restrict oil production.

However, the US has excess refinery capacity relative to our needs, so we do import some crude oil and sell off the refined products. We also export some crude oil. We only import a tiny amount from Saudi Arabia - most of their oil goes to Europe and Asia.

Sure. But irrelevant. If the US creates even more excess capacity by decreasing domestic demand, by say, 50%, than global price of oil will STILL be around the same as OPEC will simply just intentionally decrease production to compensate. That's how monopolies work.


Shane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • Location: Midtown
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1974 on: November 21, 2022, 05:26:10 PM »
The plan is still to stop burning fossil fuels, though, right? Just checking.

If, little by little, we stopped burning oil, the price OPEC charged wouldn't really matter. As we saw during the pandemic, when consumers stopped filling their cars up with gas every week, prices plunged to only $1.99/gallon in our area. To everyone around me, right now, moaning and groaning about the "high" price of gasoline, I tell them to work harder at figuring out ways to use less fuel. If we all cut our consumption of gasoline, prices will fall, and even if the $/gallon doesn't get cheaper, and maybe even goes up some, consumers would still come out ahead because, overall, we would be burning much, much less.

Low-hanging fruit in North America is the size of our vehicles. If consumers started buying up smaller, more fuel efficient cars and trucks, they could maintain, basically, the same lifestyle, while using less materials and energy to build and operate their vehicles. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that, occasionally driving a 3Klb car would be better for the environment than driving everywhere in a 5Klb SUV.

Another no brainer is car pooling. Two former coworkers, who literally lived next door to each other, both commuted separately in full-size pickups for OVER 20 YEARS! Duh! When I asked them why they didn't just ride together, neither of them could articulate a plausible answer. I mean, it wasn't that they didn't like each other. They always talked and seemed friendly at work. I just think they never really thought about car pooling, maybe because the cost of fuel and driving a vehicle is so heavily subsidized by our governments. They both already owned full-size pickup trucks, so the marginal cost of the gas and extra wear and tear just didn't register on either of their radars, as it was only a small percentage of their take home pay.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3695
  • Location: Germany
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1975 on: November 22, 2022, 01:43:36 AM »
The plan is still to stop burning fossil fuels, though, right? Just checking.

If, little by little, we stopped burning oil, the price OPEC charged wouldn't really matter.
That's not how it works. The oil price is highly political. That is why OPEC was founded. The goal was to have the price in a certain range that is acceptable to both sellers and buyers.

If you slowly decrease demand, OPEC will just slowly decrease supply, if no one lese does it (which is far more likely).
OPEC is on the lowest end of the cost, at half of what e.g. Russia has to pay to get the black stuff out of the earth and 1/3 of what American companies pay.

The price only plunged so hard because the drop in use was so extremely short timed and it takes a while (and money) to properly shut down a hole and open it up again, or it may very likely be impossible. (Same for gas btw.)
So instead of taking that risk many companies in the US continued selling the stuff on loss in the hope that the usage drop will only last for a few weeks, ultimately exceeding storage capacities. That is why in the US at one moment you actually had to pay money to get the oil out of your hands. That's how... unusual the situation was.

Shane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • Location: Midtown
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1976 on: November 22, 2022, 05:05:01 AM »
The plan is still to stop burning fossil fuels, though, right? Just checking.

If, little by little, we stopped burning oil, the price OPEC charged wouldn't really matter.
That's not how it works. The oil price is highly political. That is why OPEC was founded. The goal was to have the price in a certain range that is acceptable to both sellers and buyers.

If you slowly decrease demand, OPEC will just slowly decrease supply, if no one lese does it (which is far more likely).
OPEC is on the lowest end of the cost, at half of what e.g. Russia has to pay to get the black stuff out of the earth and 1/3 of what American companies pay.

The price only plunged so hard because the drop in use was so extremely short timed and it takes a while (and money) to properly shut down a hole and open it up again, or it may very likely be impossible. (Same for gas btw.)
So instead of taking that risk many companies in the US continued selling the stuff on loss in the hope that the usage drop will only last for a few weeks, ultimately exceeding storage capacities. That is why in the US at one moment you actually had to pay money to get the oil out of your hands. That's how... unusual the situation was.

Sure, it makes sense that the big drop in the price of gasoline we saw during covid was because of a dramatic decrease in demand that happened almost overnight. Generally, though, unless one firm or country holds a monopoly, when demand for anything decreases, prices tend to fall, too, no? OPEC+ countries may collude on prices, but they've got to compete against other oil producers, like the US. If consumers around the world start buying less gasoline and diesel, producers will have to compete against each other for customers by lowering prices. Decreasing demand for oil by enough that we drive all of the oil producers out of business should be our goal, imho.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1977 on: November 22, 2022, 06:53:17 AM »
I think it's pretty clear that if we try to repeat whatever was happening during 2020q2, society will come apart at the seams.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6665
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1978 on: November 22, 2022, 10:16:51 AM »
Actually gas prices dropped in 2020 for two reasons.  Saudi Arabia started an oil price war - they flooded the market with oil.  That happened weeks before the U.S. started to panic over Covid.

When the Fed announced emergency measures on March 8, the market assumed that was from the oil price war - not Covid.  I remember it as one of the stupiest things I've ever seen in the stock market.  To be fair, neither the media nor professional investors ever dealt with exponential growth that high.

ATtiny85

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 960
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1979 on: January 11, 2023, 04:47:23 PM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1980 on: January 11, 2023, 06:17:22 PM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

With any luck neither of these lying dog-faced pony soldiers will run in 2024.

sailinlight

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 353
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1981 on: January 11, 2023, 07:29:57 PM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

With any luck neither of these lying dog-faced pony soldiers will run in 2024.
I think that's something both sides can agree on.

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1982 on: January 12, 2023, 06:24:53 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2062
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1983 on: January 12, 2023, 06:33:49 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

I'm going down the list of how this is comparable in any way though:

1. Biden is cooperating and voluntarily having his staff look for more documents to return.
2. The documents were determined to not really be of any classified nature.
3. Biden isn't actively hiding the documents he has.
4. Biden isn't claiming the documents are legally his

Honestly, if Trump had simply handed everything over without a fuss, this story with Biden would be a non-issue. The Justice department could care less if Trump forgot to return documents (or heck even if he purposefully stole them but just handed them back when caught). The problem with Trump's documents was the coverup, not the act itself. So this hand waving false equivalence all rings really hollow and like the media kicking the dirt cause they really want this story to happen.

Phenix

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1984 on: January 12, 2023, 07:16:19 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

I'm going down the list of how this is comparable in any way though:

1. Biden is cooperating and voluntarily having his staff look for more documents to return.
2. The documents were determined to not really be of any classified nature.
3. Biden isn't actively hiding the documents he has.
4. Biden isn't claiming the documents are legally his

Honestly, if Trump had simply handed everything over without a fuss, this story with Biden would be a non-issue. The Justice department could care less if Trump forgot to return documents (or heck even if he purposefully stole them but just handed them back when caught). The problem with Trump's documents was the coverup, not the act itself. So this hand waving false equivalence all rings really hollow and like the media kicking the dirt cause they really want this story to happen.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worked with classified. The amount of classified and constant changing of hands would make tracking it impossible. Even if we're only talking Top Secret, it would still be nearly impossible to track every document. That's why there's annual training requirements, clearances, and restricted areas for generating/storing/viewing classified material. In my opinion, we have laws and controls in place, they just aren't enforced strong enough. We also have far too many "classified" items that are easily found with a google search.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2062
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1985 on: January 12, 2023, 07:33:18 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

I'm going down the list of how this is comparable in any way though:

1. Biden is cooperating and voluntarily having his staff look for more documents to return.
2. The documents were determined to not really be of any classified nature.
3. Biden isn't actively hiding the documents he has.
4. Biden isn't claiming the documents are legally his

Honestly, if Trump had simply handed everything over without a fuss, this story with Biden would be a non-issue. The Justice department could care less if Trump forgot to return documents (or heck even if he purposefully stole them but just handed them back when caught). The problem with Trump's documents was the coverup, not the act itself. So this hand waving false equivalence all rings really hollow and like the media kicking the dirt cause they really want this story to happen.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worked with classified. The amount of classified and constant changing of hands would make tracking it impossible. Even if we're only talking Top Secret, it would still be nearly impossible to track every document. That's why there's annual training requirements, clearances, and restricted areas for generating/storing/viewing classified material. In my opinion, we have laws and controls in place, they just aren't enforced strong enough. We also have far too many "classified" items that are easily found with a google search.

Saying it's hard to track doesn't sway me. I work in tech. It's very possible to implement a system that all classified documents go through and are tagged. I get that it'd be difficult, but hardly the most onerous task the US gov has taken on.

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1986 on: January 12, 2023, 08:48:45 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

I'm going down the list of how this is comparable in any way though:

1. Biden is cooperating and voluntarily having his staff look for more documents to return.
2. The documents were determined to not really be of any classified nature.
3. Biden isn't actively hiding the documents he has.
4. Biden isn't claiming the documents are legally his

Honestly, if Trump had simply handed everything over without a fuss, this story with Biden would be a non-issue. The Justice department could care less if Trump forgot to return documents (or heck even if he purposefully stole them but just handed them back when caught). The problem with Trump's documents was the coverup, not the act itself. So this hand waving false equivalence all rings really hollow and like the media kicking the dirt cause they really want this story to happen.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worked with classified. The amount of classified and constant changing of hands would make tracking it impossible. Even if we're only talking Top Secret, it would still be nearly impossible to track every document. That's why there's annual training requirements, clearances, and restricted areas for generating/storing/viewing classified material. In my opinion, we have laws and controls in place, they just aren't enforced strong enough. We also have far too many "classified" items that are easily found with a google search.

Saying it's hard to track doesn't sway me. I work in tech. It's very possible to implement a system that all classified documents go through and are tagged. I get that it'd be difficult, but hardly the most onerous task the US gov has taken on.

Absolutely. There's no reason to not expect that such a database would be created.

The actions taken by Biden & his team should not be praised, they should be expected. The bar needs to be set high, and anything short of full cooperation misses expectations. But personally, I would have expected diligence and vigilance on the part of Biden and his team - they know DJT was absolutely skewered for his actions, and so anything even closely related to retaining sensitive information should have been off limits.

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3104
  • she/her
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1987 on: January 12, 2023, 09:01:09 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

I'm going down the list of how this is comparable in any way though:

1. Biden is cooperating and voluntarily having his staff look for more documents to return.
2. The documents were determined to not really be of any classified nature.
3. Biden isn't actively hiding the documents he has.
4. Biden isn't claiming the documents are legally his

Honestly, if Trump had simply handed everything over without a fuss, this story with Biden would be a non-issue. The Justice department could care less if Trump forgot to return documents (or heck even if he purposefully stole them but just handed them back when caught). The problem with Trump's documents was the coverup, not the act itself. So this hand waving false equivalence all rings really hollow and like the media kicking the dirt cause they really want this story to happen.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worked with classified. The amount of classified and constant changing of hands would make tracking it impossible. Even if we're only talking Top Secret, it would still be nearly impossible to track every document. That's why there's annual training requirements, clearances, and restricted areas for generating/storing/viewing classified material. In my opinion, we have laws and controls in place, they just aren't enforced strong enough. We also have far too many "classified" items that are easily found with a google search.

Saying it's hard to track doesn't sway me. I work in tech. It's very possible to implement a system that all classified documents go through and are tagged. I get that it'd be difficult, but hardly the most onerous task the US gov has taken on.

Absolutely. There's no reason to not expect that such a database would be created.

The actions taken by Biden & his team should not be praised, they should be expected. The bar needs to be set high, and anything short of full cooperation misses expectations. But personally, I would have expected diligence and vigilance on the part of Biden and his team - they know DJT was absolutely skewered for his actions, and so anything even closely related to retaining sensitive information should have been off limits.

But that seems like exactly what might have happened.  These documents are from when Biden was VP, right?  So at the time, no one knew that Trump was going to be "skewered for his actions" almost a decade hence.  But once he was, it looks like Biden's lawyers started taking that higher level of care that meant they knew "anything even closely related to retaining sensitive information should have been off limits." And as soon as they found it, they turned them over in accordance with procedures and escalated more searching. 

The only thing left to say is it shouldn't have happened in the first place, but duh, of course it shouldn't have and yet we have still to find a perfect human being on this planet.  The only thing you can ask is that imperfections are corrected promptly and fully and that at least appears to be what Biden's team is doing, in the starkest possible contrast to Trump. 

So what is the problem?

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1988 on: January 12, 2023, 09:51:06 AM »
But that seems like exactly what might have happened.  These documents are from when Biden was VP, right?  So at the time, no one knew that Trump was going to be "skewered for his actions" almost a decade hence.  But once he was, it looks like Biden's lawyers started taking that higher level of care that meant they knew "anything even closely related to retaining sensitive information should have been off limits." And as soon as they found it, they turned them over in accordance with procedures and escalated more searching.

But the law hasn't changed has it? Is the DOJ under president Biden really that different than the DOJ under vice-president Biden? In legal terms, what has chnged?

Michael in ABQ

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1989 on: January 12, 2023, 10:20:16 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

There are probably billions of classified documents. If you use any piece of classified information in a document (PowerPoint presentation, spreadsheet, Word document, email, map, image, etc.) the whole thing is now classified. Almost every piece of information when you're in a combat zone is classified at least at the Secret level. Some of it is ridiculous, some of it really does need to be kept Secret. Things get printed, information is typed back into another system or another format, people get told things - there is no feasible way to keep track of it with technology.

That doesn't even consider the problem of aggregation - that is if you combine enough unclassified information the result is now classified. For instance, if you reported the number of tanks in a single company (typically 14) that were operational that's not classified. But if you aggregated that with the number of tanks that were operational across dozens of companies all over Europe - that would now be classified.


Quite frankly it can be very difficult to keep track of which information in your head is now classified or unclassified - especially since so much classified information is not really that secret. I was sitting in a SCIF when the Boston Bombing occurred. The best information was coming from someone who had both unclassified and classified systems (basically two different computers on two different networks) manually retyping reports from the media (unclassified) on to a classified system. Most information that's classified - even at the Top-Secret level is quite underwhelming when you compare it to what's shown in movies and TV. But everyone who is granted access to that information has to undergo initial training, and refresher training, and sign multiple documents where it is made very explicit what the rules are. Of course, those rules only apply to the little people. Rise high enough in government and it's clear that a slap on the wrist is all you'll ever receive.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2062
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1990 on: January 12, 2023, 10:46:00 AM »
With all the screaming at Trump about the classified documents that the anti-Trump crowd did, it’s a shame that Biden is now going to have to endure a fair amount of similar screaming from the Trump crowd.

It matters not whether or not “it’s the same”. This is politics.

Having voted for Biden and generally being in favor of him (despite the tepid-at-best measures that have been enacted under his watch), I have to say that he deserves the flak that he's going to get. There's no excuse for him to have retained classified information, even if he has cooperated in the investigations. We, the public, can't have it both ways.

I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

There are probably billions of classified documents. If you use any piece of classified information in a document (PowerPoint presentation, spreadsheet, Word document, email, map, image, etc.) the whole thing is now classified. Almost every piece of information when you're in a combat zone is classified at least at the Secret level. Some of it is ridiculous, some of it really does need to be kept Secret. Things get printed, information is typed back into another system or another format, people get told things - there is no feasible way to keep track of it with technology.

That doesn't even consider the problem of aggregation - that is if you combine enough unclassified information the result is now classified. For instance, if you reported the number of tanks in a single company (typically 14) that were operational that's not classified. But if you aggregated that with the number of tanks that were operational across dozens of companies all over Europe - that would now be classified.


Quite frankly it can be very difficult to keep track of which information in your head is now classified or unclassified - especially since so much classified information is not really that secret. I was sitting in a SCIF when the Boston Bombing occurred. The best information was coming from someone who had both unclassified and classified systems (basically two different computers on two different networks) manually retyping reports from the media (unclassified) on to a classified system. Most information that's classified - even at the Top-Secret level is quite underwhelming when you compare it to what's shown in movies and TV. But everyone who is granted access to that information has to undergo initial training, and refresher training, and sign multiple documents where it is made very explicit what the rules are. Of course, those rules only apply to the little people. Rise high enough in government and it's clear that a slap on the wrist is all you'll ever receive.

Of course over-classification is a problem. But nothing you brought up (except maybe some combat documents) seems all that insurmountable. If anything, better rules and regulations might make some people think twice before classifying something. Do they really need to label something classified if they have to go through the system of recording it as classified?

Things get classified all the time because someone just slaps that label on there, but doesn't hold any further responsibility to the protection or tracking of that information.

It's exactly because something like a Powerpoint can include classified info that we should absolutely be doing better to keep track of where that information goes. Once the powerpoint is over, did it go on a thumbdrive? Who was it emailed to? Was an unencrypted version of the document sent?

There are a thousand questions about real classified information that we simply don't have and can't answer today. If classified documents truly matter to our national security, then we absolutely should start taking it more seriously. And we have the technology now to do it.

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3496
  • Age: 94
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1991 on: January 12, 2023, 10:54:38 AM »
But that seems like exactly what might have happened.  These documents are from when Biden was VP, right?  So at the time, no one knew that Trump was going to be "skewered for his actions" almost a decade hence.  But once he was, it looks like Biden's lawyers started taking that higher level of care that meant they knew "anything even closely related to retaining sensitive information should have been off limits." And as soon as they found it, they turned them over in accordance with procedures and escalated more searching.

But the law hasn't changed has it? Is the DOJ under president Biden really that different than the DOJ under vice-president Biden? In legal terms, what has chnged?

1. Obstruction.
2. Care in handling and intent to comply with statute.

I do think that we have just seen the birth of the new "Hillary's Server/Emails". The whatabout-isms will be terrible and loud. 2024 is going to be a shitshow. 

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1992 on: January 12, 2023, 10:58:29 AM »
I do think that we have just seen the birth of the new "Hillary's Server/Emails".

So what you are saying is that Biden will run again and then lose the election. Good to know.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2022
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1993 on: January 12, 2023, 11:53:40 AM »
But that seems like exactly what might have happened.  These documents are from when Biden was VP, right?  So at the time, no one knew that Trump was going to be "skewered for his actions" almost a decade hence.  But once he was, it looks like Biden's lawyers started taking that higher level of care that meant they knew "anything even closely related to retaining sensitive information should have been off limits." And as soon as they found it, they turned them over in accordance with procedures and escalated more searching.

But the law hasn't changed has it? Is the DOJ under president Biden really that different than the DOJ under vice-president Biden? In legal terms, what has chnged?

1. Obstruction.
2. Care in handling and intent to comply with statute.

I do think that we have just seen the birth of the new "Hillary's Server/Emails". The whatabout-isms will be terrible and loud. 2024 is going to be a shitshow.

OMG, yes. 

Michael in ABQ

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2663
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1994 on: January 12, 2023, 01:34:30 PM »
I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

There are probably billions of classified documents. If you use any piece of classified information in a document (PowerPoint presentation, spreadsheet, Word document, email, map, image, etc.) the whole thing is now classified. Almost every piece of information when you're in a combat zone is classified at least at the Secret level. Some of it is ridiculous, some of it really does need to be kept Secret. Things get printed, information is typed back into another system or another format, people get told things - there is no feasible way to keep track of it with technology.

That doesn't even consider the problem of aggregation - that is if you combine enough unclassified information the result is now classified. For instance, if you reported the number of tanks in a single company (typically 14) that were operational that's not classified. But if you aggregated that with the number of tanks that were operational across dozens of companies all over Europe - that would now be classified.


Quite frankly it can be very difficult to keep track of which information in your head is now classified or unclassified - especially since so much classified information is not really that secret. I was sitting in a SCIF when the Boston Bombing occurred. The best information was coming from someone who had both unclassified and classified systems (basically two different computers on two different networks) manually retyping reports from the media (unclassified) on to a classified system. Most information that's classified - even at the Top-Secret level is quite underwhelming when you compare it to what's shown in movies and TV. But everyone who is granted access to that information has to undergo initial training, and refresher training, and sign multiple documents where it is made very explicit what the rules are. Of course, those rules only apply to the little people. Rise high enough in government and it's clear that a slap on the wrist is all you'll ever receive.

Of course over-classification is a problem. But nothing you brought up (except maybe some combat documents) seems all that insurmountable. If anything, better rules and regulations might make some people think twice before classifying something. Do they really need to label something classified if they have to go through the system of recording it as classified?

Things get classified all the time because someone just slaps that label on there, but doesn't hold any further responsibility to the protection or tracking of that information.

This is the kind of stuff that is out of the hands of 99.999% of people handling classified information. Everybody else has to follow lengthy guides of what is and isn't classified - and that can change for every individual program or project. The bottom line is that if you copy something that is classified - a single sentence, image, map, video, etc. then the resulting product now has that level of classification. In practice this means that every line or page in a classified document will be marked [.U] [.S] [TS] etc. or with additional caveats like [S/NOFORN] which means Secret/No Foreign Disclosure, or [S/REL TO FVEY] which means Secret/Release to Five Eyes nations only (US/UK/CAN/AUS/NZ).   (I had to add periods so it wouldn't try to underline or strikethrough).

People who work with this stuff at lower levels take it very seriously. But once you get to a high enough level it is very much a matter of "rule for thee, but not for me". We're never going to hear about how someone below the level of a cabinet secretary, member of Congress, 4 Star General, etc. mishandled classified information. The law actually applies to those people. They'll lose their security clearance, maybe even face jail time, and it will never make it on to the national news.

Quote
It's exactly because something like a Powerpoint can include classified info that we should absolutely be doing better to keep track of where that information goes. Once the powerpoint is over, did it go on a thumbdrive? Who was it emailed to? Was an unencrypted version of the document sent?

No thumb drives allowed. Especially not for classified networks. Everything has to be copied to a CD or transferred over a network.

I had to prepare and brief a presentation every week when I was deployed. We had to do it on the classified network since occasionally we would discuss the portion of the mission that was Secret and we were talking to people on another continent. Our mission was basically 5 or 6 lines and the last one was the only classified portion. 99% of what we discussed and basically all the information on the slides was unclassified, but because it might contain Secret information that slide deck had to live on the classified network. There is no way to just delete the portion that's classified and email an unclassified version - that would be a huge gaping security hole. Technically it can be done, but it has to go through a specially designated person to actually downgrade it and transfer it over to an unclassified network. There might be one person who has that access in an organization with hundreds or thousands of people.

Quote
There are a thousand questions about real classified information that we simply don't have and can't answer today. If classified documents truly matter to our national security, then we absolutely should start taking it more seriously. And we have the technology now to do it.

This is the government we're talking about. And not just a single agency, but almost every agency in the Executive branch as well as the Legislative and Judicial branch. DoD, CIA, NSA, NRO, State, Treasury, FBI, ATF, DEA, Congress, the White House, etc. So, implementing that technology will cost tens or hundreds of billions of dollars, require 5-10 years to be implemented and then probably get cancelled partway through - while still awarding performance bonuses to all the contractors involved. If it does get implemented, the millions of people who are supposed to use it won't actually use it or find ways around it because that's how they've always done it and besides - they're going to retire in a few years anyways.


I've spent almost 20 years in the Army, and I spent a few years as a DoD civilian. I'm beyond pessimistic about the ability of the federal government to accomplish things in a timely or cost-effective manner, especially when it comes to technology or any other system that is used by literally millions of people.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2062
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1995 on: January 12, 2023, 01:59:53 PM »
I'd say it's more of a fault of lack of laws and regulations around keeping track of classified documents. There should be a database with the location of all such documents.

There are probably billions of classified documents. If you use any piece of classified information in a document (PowerPoint presentation, spreadsheet, Word document, email, map, image, etc.) the whole thing is now classified. Almost every piece of information when you're in a combat zone is classified at least at the Secret level. Some of it is ridiculous, some of it really does need to be kept Secret. Things get printed, information is typed back into another system or another format, people get told things - there is no feasible way to keep track of it with technology.

That doesn't even consider the problem of aggregation - that is if you combine enough unclassified information the result is now classified. For instance, if you reported the number of tanks in a single company (typically 14) that were operational that's not classified. But if you aggregated that with the number of tanks that were operational across dozens of companies all over Europe - that would now be classified.


Quite frankly it can be very difficult to keep track of which information in your head is now classified or unclassified - especially since so much classified information is not really that secret. I was sitting in a SCIF when the Boston Bombing occurred. The best information was coming from someone who had both unclassified and classified systems (basically two different computers on two different networks) manually retyping reports from the media (unclassified) on to a classified system. Most information that's classified - even at the Top-Secret level is quite underwhelming when you compare it to what's shown in movies and TV. But everyone who is granted access to that information has to undergo initial training, and refresher training, and sign multiple documents where it is made very explicit what the rules are. Of course, those rules only apply to the little people. Rise high enough in government and it's clear that a slap on the wrist is all you'll ever receive.

Of course over-classification is a problem. But nothing you brought up (except maybe some combat documents) seems all that insurmountable. If anything, better rules and regulations might make some people think twice before classifying something. Do they really need to label something classified if they have to go through the system of recording it as classified?

Things get classified all the time because someone just slaps that label on there, but doesn't hold any further responsibility to the protection or tracking of that information.

This is the kind of stuff that is out of the hands of 99.999% of people handling classified information. Everybody else has to follow lengthy guides of what is and isn't classified - and that can change for every individual program or project. The bottom line is that if you copy something that is classified - a single sentence, image, map, video, etc. then the resulting product now has that level of classification. In practice this means that every line or page in a classified document will be marked [.U] [.S] [TS] etc. or with additional caveats like [S/NOFORN] which means Secret/No Foreign Disclosure, or [S/REL TO FVEY] which means Secret/Release to Five Eyes nations only (US/UK/CAN/AUS/NZ).   (I had to add periods so it wouldn't try to underline or strikethrough).

People who work with this stuff at lower levels take it very seriously. But once you get to a high enough level it is very much a matter of "rule for thee, but not for me". We're never going to hear about how someone below the level of a cabinet secretary, member of Congress, 4 Star General, etc. mishandled classified information. The law actually applies to those people. They'll lose their security clearance, maybe even face jail time, and it will never make it on to the national news.

Quote
It's exactly because something like a Powerpoint can include classified info that we should absolutely be doing better to keep track of where that information goes. Once the powerpoint is over, did it go on a thumbdrive? Who was it emailed to? Was an unencrypted version of the document sent?

No thumb drives allowed. Especially not for classified networks. Everything has to be copied to a CD or transferred over a network.

I had to prepare and brief a presentation every week when I was deployed. We had to do it on the classified network since occasionally we would discuss the portion of the mission that was Secret and we were talking to people on another continent. Our mission was basically 5 or 6 lines and the last one was the only classified portion. 99% of what we discussed and basically all the information on the slides was unclassified, but because it might contain Secret information that slide deck had to live on the classified network. There is no way to just delete the portion that's classified and email an unclassified version - that would be a huge gaping security hole. Technically it can be done, but it has to go through a specially designated person to actually downgrade it and transfer it over to an unclassified network. There might be one person who has that access in an organization with hundreds or thousands of people.

Quote
There are a thousand questions about real classified information that we simply don't have and can't answer today. If classified documents truly matter to our national security, then we absolutely should start taking it more seriously. And we have the technology now to do it.

This is the government we're talking about. And not just a single agency, but almost every agency in the Executive branch as well as the Legislative and Judicial branch. DoD, CIA, NSA, NRO, State, Treasury, FBI, ATF, DEA, Congress, the White House, etc. So, implementing that technology will cost tens or hundreds of billions of dollars, require 5-10 years to be implemented and then probably get cancelled partway through - while still awarding performance bonuses to all the contractors involved. If it does get implemented, the millions of people who are supposed to use it won't actually use it or find ways around it because that's how they've always done it and besides - they're going to retire in a few years anyways.


I've spent almost 20 years in the Army, and I spent a few years as a DoD civilian. I'm beyond pessimistic about the ability of the federal government to accomplish things in a timely or cost-effective manner, especially when it comes to technology or any other system that is used by literally millions of people.

I work for the feds as a civilian and I completely disagree. The DoD may have plenty of budget to burn a bunch of cash for heat, but other departments run a much tighter ship. The software that I build interfaces with millions of users and also has to hook into DoD and other agency systems.

It is a technologically difficult problem, but it isn't so expensive as to be difficult for a team of contractors to implement.

Fed civilians are only pessimistic because they have no idea how much money the private sector regularly blows on stupid projects, lazy contractors, etc. The government, imo, does just as good of a job as the private sector on project budgets.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23248
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1996 on: January 12, 2023, 02:18:16 PM »
Fed civilians are only pessimistic because they have no idea how much money the private sector regularly blows on stupid projects, lazy contractors, etc. The government, imo, does just as good of a job as the private sector on project budgets.

This has also been my experience after working in private industry on many government (military and transportation) projects.  Private industry is often massively wasteful, it's just that there's serious incentive to hide the waste and usually much less transparency so it's not always as easy to see.

SpeedReader

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Vancouver, WA
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1997 on: January 12, 2023, 02:54:42 PM »
I worked 20 years for the Federal Government and 15 in private industry.  Industry is absolutely no better at handling documents and technology changes than Government.  The simple reason is that all are staffed by human beings.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4229
  • Location: California
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1998 on: January 12, 2023, 08:18:22 PM »
...snip....

I just spent three years in a SCIF. We don't even do CDs anymore. Everything SECRET and above is paper or email. Back in the day you would number classified briefing packets and keep track of who had them. I'm pretty sure that reg is still on the books, but nobody does it anymore. You just assume whoever you gave it to will give it back, destroy it, or assume they brought the means to walk it out the door properly.  The problem is even worse at the highest echelons of government, because there's nobody to tell that person they're screwing up.

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 969
Re: Biden's policies debated ( formerly known as Biden outrage of the day )
« Reply #1999 on: January 13, 2023, 12:11:20 AM »

I do think that we have just seen the birth of the new "Hillary's Server/Emails". The whatabout-isms will be terrible and loud. 2024 is going to be a shitshow.

This.  To be clear, if a Democrat makes a mistake or oversight of any magnitude, or if anything can be blames on them, it is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

If a Republican does anything wrong and is held to account, it is a WITCH HUNT.  If someone like Trump does, well, every damn thing wrong and there might maybe be some accountability for it, then it is a POLITICIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

Biden would have been better off burning down all his old offices.